Apple’s biggest problem is only getting bigger(macworld.com)
macworld.com
Apple’s biggest problem is only getting bigger
https://www.macworld.com/article/353387/macalope-apple-app-store-monopoly-developers-congress.html
68 comments
It’s absolutely obvious that iOS has to allow side loading and other app stores. It’s user hostile and tyrannical of Apple to do otherwise. Always was. It’s a huge fat 30% margin for them but no other computer in history I’ve heard of had operated in such a closed garden.
One country (US/EU) will eventually pass legislation, that I hope is sweep enough that we will never see a situation like this again. Apple has no right to build the iPhone then seal it against the user itself. This should never have been allowed, ever.
One country (US/EU) will eventually pass legislation, that I hope is sweep enough that we will never see a situation like this again. Apple has no right to build the iPhone then seal it against the user itself. This should never have been allowed, ever.
>no other computer in history I’ve heard of had operated in such a closed garden
I'm pretty sure all the big videogame consoles do.
I'm pretty sure all the big videogame consoles do.
iPhones are closer to a multipurpose computer than a video game console is.
The two big consoles are literally x86 PCs. One even runs Windows; the other one runs a locked down version of FreeBSD. Why should they be allowed to do that but not smartphones? Their business model is a deliberate choice, and if sideloading on a gaming console breaks that, why should I care?
But why should it remain that way? Is this distinction capricious or does it find some inherent basis? Video game consoles are starting to become social meeting spaces with web browsers and audio chat.
If anything, it is more obvious to the user just what they're missing out on by selecting one console over another; for example, Breath of the Wild is basically there to sell the Nintendo Switch. If you don't buy the Switch, you will never get Breath of the Wild. What's a metaphorical Breath of the Wild that's available on Android but not on iOS? Isn't it often the reverse, where iOS gets a hot app, and Android users wonder when or if they will ever get the same?
Also, how do we get a situation where users can choose Apple as the intermediary where they wish, versus a scenario where we say "Isn't this your fault that you voluntarily accepted all of Walmart's demands?"
If anything, it is more obvious to the user just what they're missing out on by selecting one console over another; for example, Breath of the Wild is basically there to sell the Nintendo Switch. If you don't buy the Switch, you will never get Breath of the Wild. What's a metaphorical Breath of the Wild that's available on Android but not on iOS? Isn't it often the reverse, where iOS gets a hot app, and Android users wonder when or if they will ever get the same?
Also, how do we get a situation where users can choose Apple as the intermediary where they wish, versus a scenario where we say "Isn't this your fault that you voluntarily accepted all of Walmart's demands?"
I want my phone to be closer to a video game console than a multi-purpose computer.
I’m glad iPhone gives me that option.
I’m glad iPhone gives me that option.
Apple is selling being a government. Controlling a market, and by extension society. We do not get to vote on the representatives that decide the app store rules. We do not get the right to hold them accountable in the execution of such rules.
They play judge, jury and executioner, while hiding their internal discussions, goals and actions in secrecy.
A democratic and free state would be wise not allow a competing for profit government. It shouldn't share the right to regulate a market with other entities anymore than they should share the monopoly of violence.
I understand you are likely living in a country with a subpar government, but your mentality is short sighted and inconsistent.
If you like regulated markets so much why don't like you want the democratically elected government to regulate a market?
And if you like free markets so much why are you using an iPhone? And why don't you want the government to protect that free market from anti competitive undermining?
Companies shouldn't be allowed to regulate a market as they see fit, anymore than that a property owner can administer Sharia law.
Nobody is an island. All our actions affect others. The fact that your personal wellbeing or displeasure is the first thing that comes to your mind speaks to the quality of your character.
They play judge, jury and executioner, while hiding their internal discussions, goals and actions in secrecy.
A democratic and free state would be wise not allow a competing for profit government. It shouldn't share the right to regulate a market with other entities anymore than they should share the monopoly of violence.
I understand you are likely living in a country with a subpar government, but your mentality is short sighted and inconsistent.
If you like regulated markets so much why don't like you want the democratically elected government to regulate a market?
And if you like free markets so much why are you using an iPhone? And why don't you want the government to protect that free market from anti competitive undermining?
Companies shouldn't be allowed to regulate a market as they see fit, anymore than that a property owner can administer Sharia law.
Nobody is an island. All our actions affect others. The fact that your personal wellbeing or displeasure is the first thing that comes to your mind speaks to the quality of your character.
Maybe it would be better if people just choose not to buy iOS devices if they are so terrible- why does the government have to get involved?
That is the idealistic idea, but when companies grow very large they become able to:
* dominate the supply chain, making it impossible for other companies to compete
* write their own laws or otherwise influence legislation to keep themselves in their dominant position
* dominate the supply chain, making it impossible for other companies to compete
* write their own laws or otherwise influence legislation to keep themselves in their dominant position
The government decided they need to regulate companies and enforce competition laws, so now that they have done that, it’s only natural to enforce this
They are using their advantage in one side of business - quality of hardware, camera, and OS - to get advantages in another side - apps. That's definition of abusive monopoly.
Somehow there are a bunch of competitors to choose from.
What's hostile is taking the ideas from good developers and implementing them directly in the OS. They should really buy the technology instead of simply forcing companies out of business.
Apple taking 30% for things in their store is ok. Or if it’s 15% or 12.5% or whatever. It’s a service they provide.
I also don’t care if I can or cannot side load programs. It’s a non issue for almost all users. It has to be made possible for researchers though (opaque CSAM detection that no one can investigate etc).
The problem is if they want to charge for in app things I buy from the developer, or draw a line between “content” and “features” etc.
When Apple review an app and process payments for it that costs money. But when I buy another game level from a developer that wants to charge me directly - there is no review and no processing done by Apple.
I also don’t care if I can or cannot side load programs. It’s a non issue for almost all users. It has to be made possible for researchers though (opaque CSAM detection that no one can investigate etc).
The problem is if they want to charge for in app things I buy from the developer, or draw a line between “content” and “features” etc.
When Apple review an app and process payments for it that costs money. But when I buy another game level from a developer that wants to charge me directly - there is no review and no processing done by Apple.
I don’t think so. Side loading is needed by like 1% of users and for the rest it is bad.
For example, I expect most users are like my mom and will never legitimately side load anything unless malware tricks her into it.
That being said, Apple should allow it like debug mode or whatever. I just don’t think it’s a big deal because it won’t be used much. And if Epic thinks many users will side load so they can avoid 30%, that’s unlikely.
For example, I expect most users are like my mom and will never legitimately side load anything unless malware tricks her into it.
That being said, Apple should allow it like debug mode or whatever. I just don’t think it’s a big deal because it won’t be used much. And if Epic thinks many users will side load so they can avoid 30%, that’s unlikely.
> I don’t think so. Side loading is needed by like 1% of users and for the rest it is bad.
Then make it not at all obvious how to do it. Grandma will never figure it out, and the 1% of us who WANT the feature can have it.
Then make it not at all obvious how to do it. Grandma will never figure it out, and the 1% of us who WANT the feature can have it.
What I meant is that malware will do it for grandma or walk her through it.
My mom is one of those millions who answer the phone and let scamsters walk her through setting up logmein and taking over her Windows box.
The only way I helped her was by switching her to Apple where this isn’t possible. Went from me cleaning her cheapo windows laptop up every six months to three years on an iPad with no cleanup.
My mom is one of those millions who answer the phone and let scamsters walk her through setting up logmein and taking over her Windows box.
The only way I helped her was by switching her to Apple where this isn’t possible. Went from me cleaning her cheapo windows laptop up every six months to three years on an iPad with no cleanup.
This is how you end up with Microsoft. Supporting any and all use-cases instead of focusing deeply on the few that matter.
it would be interesting to figure out what percentage of Android users do side loading. In my experience, it's way higher than 1%. Maybe 10%, and way higher in young groups.
I'm pretty sure that many corporations would love to distribute private apps to their own company iPhones.
Instead, everybody has to ask Apple to please pretty please let some software run on devices that they own.
Instead, everybody has to ask Apple to please pretty please let some software run on devices that they own.
No you don't. Businesses can load their own applications, bulk purchase software directly from the vendor and avoid paying app store fees (even manage the licenses), force deploy applications to their fleet of iOS devices, and force update iOS applications. We've been able to do that, and have been doing that, for years. No need to get any permission from Apple, no need to submit anything to their App Store, no need to pay Apple anything.
That's why Apple revoked Facebook's license to do so.
Yes, you can get an enterprise license but Apple can take it away from you at any moment.
Apple also makes it very difficult for small businesses to get one in the first place.
Yes, you can get an enterprise license but Apple can take it away from you at any moment.
Apple also makes it very difficult for small businesses to get one in the first place.
Apple revoked Facebook's ability to distribute their own private iOS applications to their employees? That's what I'm talking about. An enterprise can develop iOS applications and distribute them to their employees' iPhones without permission or intervention from Apple. Maybe we're talking about different scenarios?
Do you have to pay Apple yearly and obey Apples rules in order to get an enterprise license?
Yes you do. It's $299/year and you have to be a company of a certain size and you need a D & B number.
It's the same deal that everybody gets. As a consumer if I wanted to pay Apple $100 per year, I could put my own apps on my phone too... but Apple can revoke my license to do that at any time for any reason.
Yes you do. It's $299/year and you have to be a company of a certain size and you need a D & B number.
It's the same deal that everybody gets. As a consumer if I wanted to pay Apple $100 per year, I could put my own apps on my phone too... but Apple can revoke my license to do that at any time for any reason.
You might be right, it's been a while since we set all that up at our shop. We use AirWatch MDM which allows us to distribute our own apps to our managed devices without having to interface with Apple at all. I was under the impression we no longer had to have an enterprise license to do that. Confusing things is we also have apps we create for our customers so we do have an enterprise license and have to go through the App Store submit process for those apps.
They revoked it because Facebook was using it with non-employees.
The org mode stuff is to deploy apps to staff, not to bypass App Store.
The org mode stuff is to deploy apps to staff, not to bypass App Store.
> It’s a huge fat 30% margin
Isn't the margin 15% for (what I assume is) a vast majority of sales?
Isn't the margin 15% for (what I assume is) a vast majority of sales?
You are right that in practice most people don’t get 1M in yearly revenue, but the 30% is a huge consideration for anyone making a new software business that has a chance to grow past 10 employees. What most successful companies do instead is dodge it by being free with ads (Facebook, Instagram, Amazon, Snap, YouTube, Zillow, etc), baked into an existing subscription business (Office, Google Docs, Basecamp, Netflix, Disney+, Photoshop, 1Password), or they ditch the phones entirely using web, desktop or console platforms instead (Figma, Sketch, most AAA games, most sass companies).
The only big companies left are micropayment game companies and that is mostly because casual games are a perfect fit for mobile and it’s worth the 30% to be where the users are.
The only big companies left are micropayment game companies and that is mostly because casual games are a perfect fit for mobile and it’s worth the 30% to be where the users are.
I always see this comment anywhere the thirty percent is mentioned. The truth is that after Epic's lawsuit, Apple did reduce their cut to 12.5% for smaller players. But for the majority of the App Store's time in existence it had been 30% across the board.
It only took a threat to get 15%, and if you make enough money you don't get that deal.
That's still incredibly high.
The nanosecond that happens, Facebook is going to only be available as a sideload and that version will spy even more than the app has ever done.
It’s 15%
It's 15% for small businesses but not for those with greater income, where it remains 30%.
It’s 15% for every business except the top 2% most profitable.
It's 15% for small businesses that make less than $1 million in app proceeds.
PS if you are thinking of subscriptions, those are 30% for the first year, 15% afterwards. That's due to the high percentage of subscriber churn, so most subscriptions pay 30% and don't get to the 15% level.
PS if you are thinking of subscriptions, those are 30% for the first year, 15% afterwards. That's due to the high percentage of subscriber churn, so most subscriptions pay 30% and don't get to the 15% level.
That is 98% of app businesses. $1M in proceeds per year is a solid business.
Unlike what you wrote, "It's 15%", it is not 15%.
98% of it is at 15%. Except for a minority of exceptions it is 15%.
Let’s recall what you wrote: “It’s a huge fat 30% margin”. Now that is certainly bullshit, isn’t it?
Let’s recall what you wrote: “It’s a huge fat 30% margin”. Now that is certainly bullshit, isn’t it?
> Let’s recall what you wrote: “It’s a huge fat 30% margin”. Now that is certainly bullshit, isn’t it?
Except, I never wrote that. You're 100% lying... I didn't write those words anywhere in the world.
What I wrote was 15% except for the top end which is 30%. And you did write that two word comment, "It's 15%". Stop with the BS comments.
Except, I never wrote that. You're 100% lying... I didn't write those words anywhere in the world.
What I wrote was 15% except for the top end which is 30%. And you did write that two word comment, "It's 15%". Stop with the BS comments.
Ahh true you didn’t write those words. I didn’t notice when you stepped in.
The person I originally replied to wrote those words. You just stepped in at some point to argue on their behalf.
The person I originally replied to wrote those words. You just stepped in at some point to argue on their behalf.
A good example of how Apple's App Store allows it to abuse its control over its platform to browbeat potential competitors:
1. Developer makes an app that Apple is interested in.
2. Apple tries to acquire said app.
3. Talks fail.
4. App updates suddenly face irrational "rejection" during app review process and are no longer allowed on the App Store unless developers "jump through a myriad of fiery hoops juggled by either incompetent, malicious, or overworked reviewers enabled by rules the company wrote itself that continually get interpreted in various weird ways".
5. Simultaneously, Apple allows scammy copy-cat apps to confuse users and drain revenue away from legitimate app.
1. Developer makes an app that Apple is interested in.
2. Apple tries to acquire said app.
3. Talks fail.
4. App updates suddenly face irrational "rejection" during app review process and are no longer allowed on the App Store unless developers "jump through a myriad of fiery hoops juggled by either incompetent, malicious, or overworked reviewers enabled by rules the company wrote itself that continually get interpreted in various weird ways".
5. Simultaneously, Apple allows scammy copy-cat apps to confuse users and drain revenue away from legitimate app.
You know what’s only getting bigger? Apple’s sales and revenue.
They’ve proven time and time again that they know what their customers want and their customers reward them with loyalty and benefit of the doubt. This doesn’t mean Apple gets it right every time, but on balance they deliver.
Articles like this are pointless because they don’t understand why people buy Apple. The article imposes arbitrary values as being the “right” ones and misunderstands what Apple’s customers actually value.
Let me give you an example. I love walled gardens and tightly curated experiences. In fact, I’m willing to pay a premium for them. I don’t care about developers and I don’t care about “freedom”. I simply want a high quality, tightly curated experience. I prefer tight control over the ecosystem by a single party that I trust and have a long standing relationship with (e.g Apple).
They’ve proven time and time again that they know what their customers want and their customers reward them with loyalty and benefit of the doubt. This doesn’t mean Apple gets it right every time, but on balance they deliver.
Articles like this are pointless because they don’t understand why people buy Apple. The article imposes arbitrary values as being the “right” ones and misunderstands what Apple’s customers actually value.
Let me give you an example. I love walled gardens and tightly curated experiences. In fact, I’m willing to pay a premium for them. I don’t care about developers and I don’t care about “freedom”. I simply want a high quality, tightly curated experience. I prefer tight control over the ecosystem by a single party that I trust and have a long standing relationship with (e.g Apple).
>They’ve proven time and time again that they know what their customers want and their customers reward them with loyalty and benefit of the doubt.
There is a duopoly. You can choose either some opennes or not being spied on by Google.
True, you can go with a standard phone, but you are continously going to run into smaller and bigger bits of friction in a world that expects you to have a smartphone.
With Covid, some of those frictions were becoming pretty big. In the future, they may become impossible to surmount.
There is a duopoly. You can choose either some opennes or not being spied on by Google.
True, you can go with a standard phone, but you are continously going to run into smaller and bigger bits of friction in a world that expects you to have a smartphone.
With Covid, some of those frictions were becoming pretty big. In the future, they may become impossible to surmount.
> I love walled gardens and tightly curated experiences... I don’t care about developers and I don’t care about “freedom”.
That's great. It doesn't mean that we, who don't like walled gardens and love our computing freedom, are willing to kow-tow to Apple's every whims and fancy and sacrifice our rights. And if you believe that our criticisms and protests don't have any effect then you should be content with that fact and ignore us instead of the pointless exercise of telling us that we are ignorant and need to shut up - it's obvious that we value different things.
It doesn't make either of us right or wrong - it just means we have different expectations, and I am sure you don't have any objections to people thinking different from you, right?
That's great. It doesn't mean that we, who don't like walled gardens and love our computing freedom, are willing to kow-tow to Apple's every whims and fancy and sacrifice our rights. And if you believe that our criticisms and protests don't have any effect then you should be content with that fact and ignore us instead of the pointless exercise of telling us that we are ignorant and need to shut up - it's obvious that we value different things.
It doesn't make either of us right or wrong - it just means we have different expectations, and I am sure you don't have any objections to people thinking different from you, right?
You don’t have to buy anything from a company that doesn’t make what you’re looking for. You’re welcome to buy an Android phone.
Apple has a multi-decade history of following their values. The tradeoffs of these values are well documented throughout history - obviously there are pros and cons.
What I don’t get is why people want every company to bend to some arbitrary set of values. You then end up with the same product experience everywhere.
I for one like the fact that Android and iOS take very different approaches to a mobile platform.
Apple has a multi-decade history of following their values. The tradeoffs of these values are well documented throughout history - obviously there are pros and cons.
What I don’t get is why people want every company to bend to some arbitrary set of values. You then end up with the same product experience everywhere.
I for one like the fact that Android and iOS take very different approaches to a mobile platform.
> What I don’t get is why people want every company to bend to some arbitrary set of values.
It's not an "arbitrary set of values" - it's called consumer rights.
And just like your right to free speech, right to vote, right to be treated as an equal and not be discriminated because of some part of your identity etc., consumer rights have been hard-won rights too.
Apple can customise their products as much as they want, but not at the expense of our rights. They can, and should, operate within that limit, as otherwise these rights becomes meaningless and leads to abuse.
It's not an "arbitrary set of values" - it's called consumer rights.
And just like your right to free speech, right to vote, right to be treated as an equal and not be discriminated because of some part of your identity etc., consumer rights have been hard-won rights too.
Apple can customise their products as much as they want, but not at the expense of our rights. They can, and should, operate within that limit, as otherwise these rights becomes meaningless and leads to abuse.
Should Halo games be forced to run on Playstation?
Should I be able to install MacOS on my Xbox?
Should Audis be forced to design engines in a way that makes oil changes user-servicable?
I don’t buy this overly broad “consumer rights” argument. You can frame anything you want as a right this way.
The practical reality is that you have a choice in the marketplace. No one is being strong armed into anything and there are alternatives that can give you what you want.
Should I be able to install MacOS on my Xbox?
Should Audis be forced to design engines in a way that makes oil changes user-servicable?
I don’t buy this overly broad “consumer rights” argument. You can frame anything you want as a right this way.
The practical reality is that you have a choice in the marketplace. No one is being strong armed into anything and there are alternatives that can give you what you want.
I think these questions were meant to have an obvious and answer but they don't. We have laws and courts to figure this out. Maybe you should be able to install MacOS on your Xbox and maybe Audi should be forced to change their design. VW certainly was forced to make changes after Dieselgate. Consumers have some rights that are largely not argued about these days, like honesty in the product listing. The people on the side of more rights for the consumer are always confused why so many people want fewer rights for, not only themselves, but their fellow citizens as well. It feels unreasonable: we're standing up for you to have these rights as well and you're complaining that you don't want them so no one should have them.
In a well functioning market it would be a different story but we really need to stop pretending that mobile OSes are a healthy market with lots of competition. There are 2 players worth mentioning and that kind of market needs additional safeguards
In a well functioning market it would be a different story but we really need to stop pretending that mobile OSes are a healthy market with lots of competition. There are 2 players worth mentioning and that kind of market needs additional safeguards
I don't really get why Apple is being such a stick in the mud here. As they hint in this article -- the main advantage of the Apple app store is that it is the place that paying users go.
Being on the iOS platform isn't going to bestow this advantage on some shady discount app store that opens up.
And the while the Apple app store is pretty good, they aren't perfect. Opening the platform to a little more competition will force them to bring their A-game -- less arbitrary removals, faster reviews. Apple is a huge company with deep insight into their own operating system, they should be confident in their ability to out-compete any other stores on their platform. Refusing to allow others to compete on their platform just allows them to grow complacent, which will ultimately result in catastrophic failure someday down the line.
Being on the iOS platform isn't going to bestow this advantage on some shady discount app store that opens up.
And the while the Apple app store is pretty good, they aren't perfect. Opening the platform to a little more competition will force them to bring their A-game -- less arbitrary removals, faster reviews. Apple is a huge company with deep insight into their own operating system, they should be confident in their ability to out-compete any other stores on their platform. Refusing to allow others to compete on their platform just allows them to grow complacent, which will ultimately result in catastrophic failure someday down the line.
>but developers for that platform still make less money on it.
Isn't that why it's not big problem?
I get the gist, it's a thing, but I don't get what the article is trying to show me... but admittedly I found that article hard to read / grok, I felt like I walked into the middle of a conversation when I read it.
Isn't that why it's not big problem?
I get the gist, it's a thing, but I don't get what the article is trying to show me... but admittedly I found that article hard to read / grok, I felt like I walked into the middle of a conversation when I read it.
I’m putting together ads that are not appropriate for kids but are being targeted to kids on blatantly obvious iOS kids games.
Where’s the best spot to post something like that to get traction?
Where’s the best spot to post something like that to get traction?
Wherever you decide to post, please also share this with me at [email protected]. I’ll do my best to bring as much warranted attention to it as I can.
- Kosta
- Kosta
Here's the developer's thread on this:
https://twitter.com/FlickType/status/1427292843928821765
https://twitter.com/FlickType/status/1427292843928821765
Brilliant double entendre title!
I'm sure it's not the first time this has been used but it's the first time I've seen it.
(in case it gets changed, it's: "Apple’s biggest problem is only getting bigger")
I'm sure it's not the first time this has been used but it's the first time I've seen it.
(in case it gets changed, it's: "Apple’s biggest problem is only getting bigger")
People buy overpriced and locked appliances from a monopoly-making company. The only way to stop this is to stop buying shitty products. Their mobile market share is huge, why would they stop doing this when customers keep on buying?
Why do people pay comcast for terrible internet? The illusion of choice is here. iOS has gravity. Can't facetime with your parents on holidays? Don't have imessage? Group texts are a nightmare when someone doesn't have imessage. All of these things pull people to iOS. Just being like "don't like skiing? then don't ski" isn't an argument.
If you don’t like skiing then you really don’t have to ski.
There’s a billion alternatives to Facetime. There’s a billion cross-platform messengers. Etc
Comcast is not at all a comparable situation.
There’s a billion alternatives to Facetime. There’s a billion cross-platform messengers. Etc
Comcast is not at all a comparable situation.
How many ISP choices do you have at your place? How many cell phone providers are there where you live who are not an MNVO? How many mobile operating systems are there? This is my point. You think you have a choice in the matter, but when it comes down to it you really dont.
Indeed, AAPL's biggest problem, macOS bugs, is only getting bigger.
So is the primary assertion of the article that the App Store is a monopoly on iOS? This isn’t great but it also isn’t illegal, right?
Or are we accusing Apple of something anticompetitive?
Or are we accusing Apple of something anticompetitive?
Discontinuing FlickType Keyboard for iPhone - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28200288 - Aug 2021 (163 comments)
See also:
After Apple rejections, FlickType gives up on popular iPhone keyboard for blind - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28212219 - Aug 2021 (83 comments)
And previously:
iOS developer who drew attention to App Store scams is now suing Apple - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26504158 - March 2021 (45 comments)
Apple’s App Store is hosting multi-million dollar scams - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26069660 - Feb 2021 (8 comments)