The role of high-skilled foreign labor in startup performance(papers.ssrn.com)
papers.ssrn.com
The role of high-skilled foreign labor in startup performance
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3459001
81 comments
> Imagine how many startups simply don't come into existence because the founders are stuck on life long H1B visas.
This implicitly assumes that startups need to happen in the U.S. Another option that may be more preferable to some founders is getting access to appropriate capital and resources in their home country, or in another country of their choice. Getting rid of the exploitative H1B system is only a solution for some people and having every founder move to the U.S. isn't necessarily good for the rest of world.
This implicitly assumes that startups need to happen in the U.S. Another option that may be more preferable to some founders is getting access to appropriate capital and resources in their home country, or in another country of their choice. Getting rid of the exploitative H1B system is only a solution for some people and having every founder move to the U.S. isn't necessarily good for the rest of world.
> Another option that may be more preferable to some founders is getting access to appropriate capital and resources in their home country, or in another country of their choice.
I spent most of my childhood in Russia, and I am stuck with a Russian passport. Russia is a mafia state I absolutely don't want my children to grow up in. It's absolutely out of the question for anybody of talent, or ability. My parents personally knew a number of dollar millionaires who lost all their livelihoods to the mafia. No way I'm going back.
So, what is the crowd of us expat entrepreneurs from 3rd world countries do have as an option?
1. Startup visas: largely open to people from first world countries only. Paperwork requirements make it effectively impossible to prove ones background as an entrepreneur, or a graduate of a high profile university.
2. Freelancer visas: a bit easier, most countries just want a proof of substantial income, or an LLC documents. It's still a perpetual visa program, without a way to settle down in most of these countries. Dubai PR was ever given to just few thousand people. Singapore PR is possible, but again not the lowest effort around.
3. Create a business in your home country, cook books, and establish a subsidiary in a developed world: explicitly illegal, but widely practiced to the point of getting some semi-official recognition. A patently absurd scheme normalising a nominally illegal behaviour.
4. Investment immigration, and such: investment immigration to the West is plainly out of reach financially to the most people whom I can genuinely call entrepreneurs. Western world's investment immigration programmes are both dysfunctional, and expensive, as they mean to steer you into bad investments.
5. Go from one 3rd-world mafia state, to another which is less of a mafia state; Have hope, and pray: pretty much the only option opened unconditionally to the widest number of people. 3rd world countries are very hungry for just any money, and their investment programmes are largely "anything goes," as well as having the least of inspections/scrutiny/enforcement.
It's the toughest option, but the easiest to get into one. India will sell you a PR for 15 lakh USD, Indonesia for 8 lakh, Bangladesh for 75 thousand, and Pakistan for just around 35k-30k given the extreme PKR depreciation in recent years.
I think it's the best option for anybody in the factory business, and 5-7 years experience actually running things, despite the South Asia's well known problems like extreme bureaucracy, and overt corruption.
I spent most of my childhood in Russia, and I am stuck with a Russian passport. Russia is a mafia state I absolutely don't want my children to grow up in. It's absolutely out of the question for anybody of talent, or ability. My parents personally knew a number of dollar millionaires who lost all their livelihoods to the mafia. No way I'm going back.
So, what is the crowd of us expat entrepreneurs from 3rd world countries do have as an option?
1. Startup visas: largely open to people from first world countries only. Paperwork requirements make it effectively impossible to prove ones background as an entrepreneur, or a graduate of a high profile university.
2. Freelancer visas: a bit easier, most countries just want a proof of substantial income, or an LLC documents. It's still a perpetual visa program, without a way to settle down in most of these countries. Dubai PR was ever given to just few thousand people. Singapore PR is possible, but again not the lowest effort around.
3. Create a business in your home country, cook books, and establish a subsidiary in a developed world: explicitly illegal, but widely practiced to the point of getting some semi-official recognition. A patently absurd scheme normalising a nominally illegal behaviour.
4. Investment immigration, and such: investment immigration to the West is plainly out of reach financially to the most people whom I can genuinely call entrepreneurs. Western world's investment immigration programmes are both dysfunctional, and expensive, as they mean to steer you into bad investments.
5. Go from one 3rd-world mafia state, to another which is less of a mafia state; Have hope, and pray: pretty much the only option opened unconditionally to the widest number of people. 3rd world countries are very hungry for just any money, and their investment programmes are largely "anything goes," as well as having the least of inspections/scrutiny/enforcement.
It's the toughest option, but the easiest to get into one. India will sell you a PR for 15 lakh USD, Indonesia for 8 lakh, Bangladesh for 75 thousand, and Pakistan for just around 35k-30k given the extreme PKR depreciation in recent years.
I think it's the best option for anybody in the factory business, and 5-7 years experience actually running things, despite the South Asia's well known problems like extreme bureaucracy, and overt corruption.
I don't understand why this is getting downvoted. It's worthwhile to hear a perspective on why someone might want to leave a particular country and the options they see available to them.
If that country is net indebted in USD, it has no choice other than to send its citizen to the source of the dollars.
Example: Venezuela has a trade deficit against the US. [0] Lots of Venezuelans work in Miami.
[0] https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c3070.html
Example: Venezuela has a trade deficit against the US. [0] Lots of Venezuelans work in Miami.
[0] https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c3070.html
I will fully support H1B's when their minimum wages are $100k and they aren't tied to a sponsoring employer. Until then, they are slave labor used to bypass employment laws and shaft American workers.
$100k isn't what it used to be. Original conception of the H1B program was for extremely specialized labor, not "I need a software developer" labor.
You mean unquota'd H1B? As in allow 10x or 50x the immigrants through that program?
Sure, I've been directly (adversely) impacted by the H1B program multiple times and I'd be perfectly fine if the program was auction based with a minimum floor on worker salaries at something like 1.1x the prevailing wage. If you really need H1B workers you should be willing to pay significantly more than it would cost to hire and train a domestic worker. If that's the case then great, H1B mission accomplished. Otherwise, the program is garbage and completely abused to depress wages for American workers.
What would be the loss of taking someone that makes 99k that someone that makes 101k makes it a win?
50x the immigrants with 100k+$? That would be a huge win.
> how many startups simply don't come into existence because the founders are stuck on life long H1B visas.
How many American computer science graduates go unemployed because of H1B's? It seems like a lot of entry level work is now either completely outsourced or performed by consultancy companies that hire largely non-citizens.
The problem doesn't even solely target new grads: https://m.economictimes.com/tech/ites/tcs-faces-us-trial-in-...
How many American computer science graduates go unemployed because of H1B's? It seems like a lot of entry level work is now either completely outsourced or performed by consultancy companies that hire largely non-citizens.
The problem doesn't even solely target new grads: https://m.economictimes.com/tech/ites/tcs-faces-us-trial-in-...
I have a handful of friends that lost their jobs to H1Bs. The one at Disney even spent his last month training his replacement. Personally I'd raise the H1B salary floor to 100 grand.
akomtu(1)
> Points to a bigger problem. Imagine how many startups simply don't come into existence because the founders are stuck on life long H1B visas.
> Or many times the founders simply can't even make it into the US even though they have much needed skills.
It points to a very obvious solution: Don't go to US to start a business. There are megatons of "startup visa" programs, government backed accelerators, and generally much healthier tech ecosystems than the US around the world.
> Skilled immigration into the US is much harder and way more uncertain than other nations.
Yet, the American Dream is still a such potent image, US still ends being the world's No.1 migration destination, unless you take the EU as a whole.
Canada has lowered its immigration threshold to the point of almost every professional with some degree, and English knowledge can move there by themselves in their late twenties. Yet, they the immigration digits are not driven now by the cutoff threshold, but by the number of applicants.
Canada is a heck of a good option to immigrate to, except for the job market. It's easily in the top 10... yet.
In my case, after living in Canada for 6 years, and getting a kick to the butt due to LMIA, I don't want to go back. First, because I don't want to beg the same government which delivered me a kick to the butt to give me a work permit; Second, the job market in is just that weak.
> Or many times the founders simply can't even make it into the US even though they have much needed skills.
It points to a very obvious solution: Don't go to US to start a business. There are megatons of "startup visa" programs, government backed accelerators, and generally much healthier tech ecosystems than the US around the world.
> Skilled immigration into the US is much harder and way more uncertain than other nations.
Yet, the American Dream is still a such potent image, US still ends being the world's No.1 migration destination, unless you take the EU as a whole.
Canada has lowered its immigration threshold to the point of almost every professional with some degree, and English knowledge can move there by themselves in their late twenties. Yet, they the immigration digits are not driven now by the cutoff threshold, but by the number of applicants.
Canada is a heck of a good option to immigrate to, except for the job market. It's easily in the top 10... yet.
In my case, after living in Canada for 6 years, and getting a kick to the butt due to LMIA, I don't want to go back. First, because I don't want to beg the same government which delivered me a kick to the butt to give me a work permit; Second, the job market in is just that weak.
This paper seems to suffer from selection bias, as the examine the a large universe of VC backed companies. Not all VC companies can afford H1-B employees and this implies that only better funded companies are more likely to succeed. There’s a vast difference in amount of funding a VC backed startup can raise, so it doesn’t really make sense to compare a company that raised 100K through YC and a pre-IPO unicorn. The paper didn’t seem to control for this when I looked through the first few pages.
The paper uses the H1B lottery process as the randomization so there's no selection bias. All the companies studied applied for H1B employees, just some got approval and others got rejected at random by the lottery.
> In our sample of VC-backed startups, we observe that winning more H-1B visa lotteries enhances startup performance. Specifically, a one-standard-deviation increase in the likelihood of winning an H-1B visa lottery increases the number of VC financing rounds in the three years after the lottery by 7.1%, the number of patents filed by 6.2%, the number of claims per patent by 9.7%, and the likelihood of an IPO by 8.8%.
> In our sample of VC-backed startups, we observe that winning more H-1B visa lotteries enhances startup performance. Specifically, a one-standard-deviation increase in the likelihood of winning an H-1B visa lottery increases the number of VC financing rounds in the three years after the lottery by 7.1%, the number of patents filed by 6.2%, the number of claims per patent by 9.7%, and the likelihood of an IPO by 8.8%.
good point, I didn't see that, so its still better than I expected. That being said, The Lottery isn't truly random. Hiring a Master's Degree holder(higher salary than the bachelors student), applying multiple years (Company longevity usually means better financials) and filling out the forms with correctly with a skilled immigration team (again, more financial requirements) all improve the odds. So you're definitely right that the selection bias isn't as bad as I originally thought, but it still seems to be present.
I'm guessing they accounted for applicants with advanced degrees who have a separate cap or did that not exist during the time of the study?
Ye the authors are taking correlation for causality big time. It is just a bad paper, judging from the abstract.
What? This is one of few papers I’ve ever seen (on this kind) that can make a causal claim. The visa lottery essentially makes it a Randomized Controlled Trial (RCT), the gold standard of science.
It's randomly controlled within startups that apply to sponsor visas. That implies some level of initial success since visa sponsorship is a huge pain in the ass.
But it doesn’t include startups that didn’t apply to sponsor visas in the study, so isn’t that sufficient for randomization purposes?
It doesn’t show that it’s a net plus vs not applying. It shows that winning the lottery that you choose to enter is better than not winning.
Are companies randomly given lottery tickets normalized by employee count or do e.g. bigger successful companies get more tickets?
I suspect more than compensation, another strong Factor would be the difficulty or possibly the cultural tendency not to change jobs as often with an H-1B.
There are probably many differences between H1B and US Citizen employees; I doubt that anyone would be able to disentangle all of them.
How did they account for H1B transfers which don't go through the annual numerical limit ?
I don't see the "bigger problem" here. Imagine if big US companies started telling red state legislatures "No, really, we need you to fix your education system". What's wrong with investing in the local economy?
Practice that reduces wages for labor makes business more profitable.
That is an entirely different question than if that is better on the whole for society.
That is an entirely different question than if that is better on the whole for society.
I know there is a substantial pool of companies that uses the "consulting" formula and brings in cheap H1B labor, but H1B is a very broad Umbrella that also includes very highly skilled workers (with PhDs), doctors, etc.
I'm a hiring manager in one of the big tech companies and let me tell you, H1B labor is NOT cheap. We not only have to pay them market rates, but a lot of foreign nationals with specialized skills are getting paid more than market average (it's part of the process that DOL enforces to make sure we don't abuse H1B). I think the study references "startups", so there is a chance that it is biased, but within that bias, accurate.
I'm a hiring manager in one of the big tech companies and let me tell you, H1B labor is NOT cheap. We not only have to pay them market rates, but a lot of foreign nationals with specialized skills are getting paid more than market average (it's part of the process that DOL enforces to make sure we don't abuse H1B). I think the study references "startups", so there is a chance that it is biased, but within that bias, accurate.
Creating a throwaway because I don't want this to follow my profile (which identifies me).
I'm one of these high-skilled foreigners (phd, 5 years experience in applied ML). I make market rate salary in local currency (~35k USD/year) plus substantial bonuses (75~90k USD/year). I work for a major corp, and I think at least a couple dozen folks make similar money with similar experience.
I'm not posting to brag; just to contextualize (and agree with parent) that, yeah, maybe that money would hire a recent grad in California and gets my phd+exp here, but I wouldn't say we're "cheap"
I know you're discussing H1Bs and I'm talking remote work - just feel like it's worth poiting out that the same set of people fill both roles; so if remote salaries are X I can't see how you could pay less than X to a H1B. Why would I move to a much higher COL for same/less money?
I mean, maybe some folks for the express purpose of leaving their country, but still - remote work should push H1B salaries up for skilled foreigners, right?
I'm one of these high-skilled foreigners (phd, 5 years experience in applied ML). I make market rate salary in local currency (~35k USD/year) plus substantial bonuses (75~90k USD/year). I work for a major corp, and I think at least a couple dozen folks make similar money with similar experience.
I'm not posting to brag; just to contextualize (and agree with parent) that, yeah, maybe that money would hire a recent grad in California and gets my phd+exp here, but I wouldn't say we're "cheap"
I know you're discussing H1Bs and I'm talking remote work - just feel like it's worth poiting out that the same set of people fill both roles; so if remote salaries are X I can't see how you could pay less than X to a H1B. Why would I move to a much higher COL for same/less money?
I mean, maybe some folks for the express purpose of leaving their country, but still - remote work should push H1B salaries up for skilled foreigners, right?
But you get to retain them for longer since the switching cost is high.
Look at credit card or marginalized finance departments. They get around the "we must pay market rates for H1B" by depressing the wages for the rest of their employees, thereby justifying the "market rate."
- AmEx
- Mastercard
- JPMorgan
- Citi
H1B Labor might not be cheap if you're truly innovating, but let me tell you- there's a reason why credit card companies pay so little across the board, and it's no coincidence that they rely heavily on H1B labor.
H1B Labor might not be cheap if you're truly innovating, but let me tell you- there's a reason why credit card companies pay so little across the board, and it's no coincidence that they rely heavily on H1B labor.
But most are not theirs a difference between a transplant surgeon with a PHD and some one whos ground out a CS degree and memorized a lot of leet code.
An entirely different question that HN would prefer not be asked...
I've spent the entirety of my 30-year programming career working with mostly (> 90%) foreign labor. The "skills" in question (that I have as well)... don't seem that hard to acquire. Yet I believe the employers when they say they literally can't find Americans who have them. Either I'm seriously underestimating how hard it is to acquire said skills (and by extension undervaluing myself, by a lot), or there's something else going on.
H1B labor isn't mobile, so you can underpay and treat them how you like.
It's like when manufacturing complains about labor and skill shortages but the wages are terrible. When you need labor and can't find it, lots of times its just that employers aren't meeting the market rate for said labor. Hence their desire to get it on the cheap via importation or outsourcing.
It's like when manufacturing complains about labor and skill shortages but the wages are terrible. When you need labor and can't find it, lots of times its just that employers aren't meeting the market rate for said labor. Hence their desire to get it on the cheap via importation or outsourcing.
This is true up and down the market. Here in New Zealand we've had a lot of squealing about "shortages in essential skills" from, I shit you not, cafe owners, bottle shop owners, you name it. We have restaurants who charge, I am not making this up, $300/head claiming that if they can't import cheap waiters paid $18/hour they'll go out of business.
The sad thing is that workers - and we see this in this very thread - end up attacking immigrant workers (who are merely trying to improve their lives), rather than employers who are exploiting workers on employer-tied work visas (both in terms of up-front pay, but often in terms of kickbacks and the like) to drive down local pay and conditions.
The answer would be that if there is a genuine labour shortage in local skills, the work permit should be in that industry/skill set, not employer tied. That would allow migrant workers to better their lot (and, given that many support extended family on remittences, whole communities) while allowing them to avoid being exploited by agencies or shitty employers; it would also avoid migrant labour being mis-used to depress local terms and conditions.
Unfortunately it seems easier to convince people to vote for anti-immigrant, often bigoted, political platforms than to convince workers to see their common interests.
The sad thing is that workers - and we see this in this very thread - end up attacking immigrant workers (who are merely trying to improve their lives), rather than employers who are exploiting workers on employer-tied work visas (both in terms of up-front pay, but often in terms of kickbacks and the like) to drive down local pay and conditions.
The answer would be that if there is a genuine labour shortage in local skills, the work permit should be in that industry/skill set, not employer tied. That would allow migrant workers to better their lot (and, given that many support extended family on remittences, whole communities) while allowing them to avoid being exploited by agencies or shitty employers; it would also avoid migrant labour being mis-used to depress local terms and conditions.
Unfortunately it seems easier to convince people to vote for anti-immigrant, often bigoted, political platforms than to convince workers to see their common interests.
There’s something that is genuinely confusing for me in this argument. Maybe you can help me understand better.
If you’re a truly high skilled worker, then US is not the only place that you can have a good life in therefore if you’re underpaid, you go somewhere else. On the other hand if your skill is not on par, then why would the companies go through the trouble of H1B and hire you while they can hire low skilled domestic labor with lower wage demand (not implying that domestic labor is low skilled, just pointing out that it’s available)
If you’re a truly high skilled worker, then US is not the only place that you can have a good life in therefore if you’re underpaid, you go somewhere else. On the other hand if your skill is not on par, then why would the companies go through the trouble of H1B and hire you while they can hire low skilled domestic labor with lower wage demand (not implying that domestic labor is low skilled, just pointing out that it’s available)
I think the argument that he is making is that work visas are used to increase the labor pool (creating a "buyers market" for companies that are hiring). If a company cant find anyone willing to accept their offer then they need to improve the compensation and working environment... or they could hire a worker from the visa pool, thus suppressing wages, benefits, WLB, etc...
It's labor-economics 101.
It doesn't matter what the job is, if you pay enough then someone will take the job (and become qualified if needed).
ex: I'd scrub the shit out of sewage pipes with a toothbrush if you paid me enough, but most companies would just say that there is a "skilled labor shortage".
It's labor-economics 101.
It doesn't matter what the job is, if you pay enough then someone will take the job (and become qualified if needed).
ex: I'd scrub the shit out of sewage pipes with a toothbrush if you paid me enough, but most companies would just say that there is a "skilled labor shortage".
Thanks for the explanation. This description is easy to grasp and makes sense. I tried to look for some numbers following your description and it seems like that the H1B wages are not lower than local market in average according to this Glassdoor study [0]. After reading it I was curious to see what’s the ratio of H1B for tech jobs (which is probably dominating the Glassdoor study) and apparently it’s the majority according to this Pew Research study [1].
[0] https://www.glassdoor.com/research/h1b-workers/
[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/27/key-facts-a...
[0] https://www.glassdoor.com/research/h1b-workers/
[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/27/key-facts-a...
1. For a couple of decades, US was the only country paying high salaries. Why would you go through the entire process of immigration if you still end up being middle class in a foreign country? Upper middle class or higher is more attractive
2. Immigration is a Network effect. You would prefer a country where you already have acquaintances, friends or family over starting your social life from scratch.
3. Soft power plays a huge role. In many societies being able to go to US has much higher prestige than say Germany, Netherlands or Japan. So many people don't see immigrating to these countries as an actual upgrade in social status back home even if the life might be better
2. Immigration is a Network effect. You would prefer a country where you already have acquaintances, friends or family over starting your social life from scratch.
3. Soft power plays a huge role. In many societies being able to go to US has much higher prestige than say Germany, Netherlands or Japan. So many people don't see immigrating to these countries as an actual upgrade in social status back home even if the life might be better
1. People who stay in their home countries often make the salary argument, but it's not as common among those who actually emigrate. The availability of interesting jobs is a more likely reason for high-skilled immigrants. For example, the UK used to be a popular immigration destination for EU citizens before Brexit, even though the standard of living was often lower than in their home countries.
2. The network effect is more important for low-skilled immigrants and those planning to make the destination country their new home. High-skilled immigrants typically have an expat mentality. They leave the people they know behind and move to a new place for a specific opportunity. Their country of residence is not their home but a place they happen to be living in at the moment. They are also prepared to move again, should new opportunities arise.
3. The prestige argument is also more important for low-skilled immigrants. For high-skilled immigrants, a more likely reaction is your friends wondering how you can put up with the bureaucratic BS of living as an immigrant in the US. (As an example, because H-1B workers are formally visitors instead of immigrants, most of them are currently unable to visit their friends and family in their home countries.)
2. The network effect is more important for low-skilled immigrants and those planning to make the destination country their new home. High-skilled immigrants typically have an expat mentality. They leave the people they know behind and move to a new place for a specific opportunity. Their country of residence is not their home but a place they happen to be living in at the moment. They are also prepared to move again, should new opportunities arise.
3. The prestige argument is also more important for low-skilled immigrants. For high-skilled immigrants, a more likely reaction is your friends wondering how you can put up with the bureaucratic BS of living as an immigrant in the US. (As an example, because H-1B workers are formally visitors instead of immigrants, most of them are currently unable to visit their friends and family in their home countries.)
Maybe we have different definitions of what "High skilled" truly means. All the "High skilled" people I know (those who actually qualified and got the High skilled visas in various developed countries) are influenced by the 3 points I wrote above. Also you are confusing immigrant (H1B is an immigration visa unlike L1) with emigrant, the mentality is very different between the two. High skilled immigrant != Emigrant
I'm in the highly skilled category myself, and half the people I interact with have been there at one point or another. From what I have seen, the kind of person who is willing to relocate to a new country for a job opportunity is likely to do so again, should a better opportunity arise. Many people I know have worked for a few years in the US, but most of them have left for better opportunities elsewhere. And once they grow older, the "better opportunities" are more likely to involve living closer to friends and family or a good environment for raising kids than higher salaries.
The immigrant/emigrant question is a matter of perspective. An immigrant to one country is an emigrant from another.
H-1B is a dual-purpose non-immigrant visa. When you have obtained/extended your H-1B status and are applying for the entry visa required for international travel, you are required to provide a permanent address outside the US. Once you enter the country, the immigration officials really don't like it if you claim you are living in the US. And because H-1B workers are not US residents from immigration perspective, most of them are currently banned from entering the country if they have visited places like the UK, Schengen area, or India in the past two weeks.
The immigrant/emigrant question is a matter of perspective. An immigrant to one country is an emigrant from another.
H-1B is a dual-purpose non-immigrant visa. When you have obtained/extended your H-1B status and are applying for the entry visa required for international travel, you are required to provide a permanent address outside the US. Once you enter the country, the immigration officials really don't like it if you claim you are living in the US. And because H-1B workers are not US residents from immigration perspective, most of them are currently banned from entering the country if they have visited places like the UK, Schengen area, or India in the past two weeks.
> the kind of person who is willing to relocate to a new country for a job opportunity
I think herein lies the crux of difference in our opinions. Most immigrants I know don't immigrate just for mere job opportunity, they go in with the intention of changing their lives and settle forever. They are not treating this like a Working Holiday Visa
> And because H-1B workers are not US residents from immigration perspective, most of them are currently banned from entering the country if they have visited places like the UK, Schengen area, or India in the past two weeks.
F1 visa is technically a non-immigrant visa and yet they are allowed entry. The entry ban has nothing to do with whether your visa is immigrant or not
I think herein lies the crux of difference in our opinions. Most immigrants I know don't immigrate just for mere job opportunity, they go in with the intention of changing their lives and settle forever. They are not treating this like a Working Holiday Visa
> And because H-1B workers are not US residents from immigration perspective, most of them are currently banned from entering the country if they have visited places like the UK, Schengen area, or India in the past two weeks.
F1 visa is technically a non-immigrant visa and yet they are allowed entry. The entry ban has nothing to do with whether your visa is immigrant or not
> I think herein lies the crux of difference in our opinions. Most immigrants I know don't immigrate just for mere job opportunity, they go in with the intention of changing their lives and settle forever. They are not treating this like a Working Holiday Visa
I don't think I've ever met highly skilled immigrants like that. Many people first move to a new country in search of better life and then become highly skilled there, but those are not the kind of immigrants this discussion is about.
The highly skilled immigrants I know switch jobs once in a while, and sometimes the new job happens to be in another country. While they are building new lives in their current country of residence, they are not truly committed to remaining there. Some stay long enough to get citizenship and some even retire in the country, but the reason to move again may come at any time. The first international move is usually the hardest. After that, you have accepted the idea that switching countries is possible, and international moves are no longer that different from domestic moves.
I don't think I've ever met highly skilled immigrants like that. Many people first move to a new country in search of better life and then become highly skilled there, but those are not the kind of immigrants this discussion is about.
The highly skilled immigrants I know switch jobs once in a while, and sometimes the new job happens to be in another country. While they are building new lives in their current country of residence, they are not truly committed to remaining there. Some stay long enough to get citizenship and some even retire in the country, but the reason to move again may come at any time. The first international move is usually the hardest. After that, you have accepted the idea that switching countries is possible, and international moves are no longer that different from domestic moves.
That is actually not true. SOME H1B labor isn't mobile (mostly people outsourcing firms), but people on H1B change jobs whenever they like. At least that's the norm in tech industry.
That's not at all true. People on H1B cannot change jobs easily. They have to go through the visa transfer process and hope nothing goes wrong with the process. They have to make sure their current employer does not get wind of the job change and doesn't fire them during the transfer process. They have to ensure that the new employer can process their green card application. Lots of nuances involved. It's a serious source of stress for a lot of highly skilled H1B engineers
There is no such thing as visa transfer process. When you’re switching jobs on an H1B you follow the same process as if it were a new application, with the exception it can be done any time in the year and the visa cap doesn’t apply.
I meant to say H1B transfer process. Previously, it used to be straightforward but the Trump administration started treating them as new applications and doled out RFEs (Request for Evidence) willy-nilly. The current administration has scrapped that but it's still a laborious, nerve-wracking process.
Oh I got that you meant H1B transfer. But the thing is that it was never a transfer, it was just a new application. I did it in 2011 and it was exactly the same process (I got no RFEs but a friend that got an RFE in his first application got another one when doing his second). It was indeed harder during Trump’s administration, and I even know a person that got his second application denied and couldn’t change jobs.
That is because you call it H1B transfer, but in reality it is a new application for a new job position, just that you can do it any time and not wait for the lottery. RFEs are part of the process, if your supporting documents don't establish that you have the qualifications for the new role, you need to provide supporting evidence. It has always existed, regardless of any administration.
Also, because it is a new application, your old one does not expire, so you can always continue your current job till you sort things out. And you can always file a third application with a third employer if things don't work out with your RFE. Changing jobs isn't as crazy as people make it out to be, unless you really don't meet the minimum.
PS: Been doing it for more than a decade without any problems
Also, because it is a new application, your old one does not expire, so you can always continue your current job till you sort things out. And you can always file a third application with a third employer if things don't work out with your RFE. Changing jobs isn't as crazy as people make it out to be, unless you really don't meet the minimum.
PS: Been doing it for more than a decade without any problems
> there's something else going on.
There is the network effect in hiring - as in, referrals from already existing employees, who are H1-B (or once were H1B). If I was once a H1B , and my employer is looking for a Software Engineer, there is a larger network (compared to my American colleague) of possible referrals that can originate from me. This results in a higher likelihood of H1-B getting a job offer - in spite of the higher documentation and process.
Company hiring policies have usually leaned towards "ready made" candidates - candidates who know Programming Language V1.4 (say) and Web Framework XYZ - H1Bs are more motivated and better prepared with these exact requirements compared to American domestic/citizen candidates. So, on paper a H1B checks all the boxes. In some cases (or many cases depending on point of view) these paper qualifications don't transfer to reality.
Also hiring of Grad Students on Student Visas - 75% of Grad Students in STEM are usually foreigners, these enter into the H1B pool (after 2 years of CPT visa).
There is the network effect in hiring - as in, referrals from already existing employees, who are H1-B (or once were H1B). If I was once a H1B , and my employer is looking for a Software Engineer, there is a larger network (compared to my American colleague) of possible referrals that can originate from me. This results in a higher likelihood of H1-B getting a job offer - in spite of the higher documentation and process.
Company hiring policies have usually leaned towards "ready made" candidates - candidates who know Programming Language V1.4 (say) and Web Framework XYZ - H1Bs are more motivated and better prepared with these exact requirements compared to American domestic/citizen candidates. So, on paper a H1B checks all the boxes. In some cases (or many cases depending on point of view) these paper qualifications don't transfer to reality.
Also hiring of Grad Students on Student Visas - 75% of Grad Students in STEM are usually foreigners, these enter into the H1B pool (after 2 years of CPT visa).
My guess - Americans with relevant skills already have jobs they like and are in high demand, and the ones who can up skill into programming positions are probably working all the time just to survive.
Foreign workers usually already have a relevant degree or experience (knowing atleast the basics) and don't have as much student debt.
Foreign workers usually already have a relevant degree or experience (knowing atleast the basics) and don't have as much student debt.
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>> with mostly (> 90%) foreign labor
This number is too high, even if you include 1st and 2nd generation immigrants who have greencards/citizenship. Did you work for a company that underpaid its employees by only hiring foreigners?
This number is too high, even if you include 1st and 2nd generation immigrants who have greencards/citizenship. Did you work for a company that underpaid its employees by only hiring foreigners?
Ten in a row, apparently.
Please don't post unsubstantive comments here. HN has discussed this question frequently and at length for many years.
(Often not very well, but this is the internet, and that's a different issue.)
(Often not very well, but this is the internet, and that's a different issue.)
paper available at https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3459001
In that case maybe we should just put that URL at the top?
I've changed to that from https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03044..., which doesn't give access to the paper.
I've changed to that from https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03044..., which doesn't give access to the paper.
Think about how badly cotton plantations needed chattel slavery.
Not only is this in poor taste, they seem to be fundamentally different. People who apply for H1-B visa and immigrate do so voluntarily.
Slavery and mass immigration are simply mechanisms the rich use to lower the cost of labour.
Mass immigration is also a mechanism that lets the poor* climb the class ladder
* = Compared to the average American, the average H1-B holder has substantially less purchasing power, before immigrating. Moreso in the case of unskilled immigration, whose quality of life improves substantially.
* = Compared to the average American, the average H1-B holder has substantially less purchasing power, before immigrating. Moreso in the case of unskilled immigration, whose quality of life improves substantially.
"* = Compared to the average American, the average H1-B holder has substantially less purchasing power, before immigrating."
So? Is America's immigration system supposed to serve the interest of foreigners, or Americans?
So? Is America's immigration system supposed to serve the interest of foreigners, or Americans?
America is the land of immigrants. Every batch of immigrants provide the fuel for growth and innovation.
Whatever might be the political climate but US is still the country to come if you want to make your dreams come true.
Whatever might be the political climate but US is still the country to come if you want to make your dreams come true.
"America is the land of immigrants. "
I should know, I've lived here for 14 y years (and, no, I'm not 14 years old).
"Every batch of immigrants provide the fuel for growth and innovation."
So the people already in America are useless? As an immigrant I feel someone should have told me that my children will become sloths.
"Whatever might be the political climate but US is still the country to come if you want to make your dreams come true."
That's really little more than regurgitating a slogan.
Anyway, the duty of the American government is to Americans. My home country's government's duty is to me, and my duty to my home country's government (that's why I refuse to become American - I'm not ready to pledge the oath of allegiance against "foreign enemies" that might include my home country).
Or why are Americans the only people in the world not allowed to have a government and a State that looks out for their interests?
I should know, I've lived here for 14 y years (and, no, I'm not 14 years old).
"Every batch of immigrants provide the fuel for growth and innovation."
So the people already in America are useless? As an immigrant I feel someone should have told me that my children will become sloths.
"Whatever might be the political climate but US is still the country to come if you want to make your dreams come true."
That's really little more than regurgitating a slogan.
Anyway, the duty of the American government is to Americans. My home country's government's duty is to me, and my duty to my home country's government (that's why I refuse to become American - I'm not ready to pledge the oath of allegiance against "foreign enemies" that might include my home country).
Or why are Americans the only people in the world not allowed to have a government and a State that looks out for their interests?
I dont understand why an american would prefer a foreigner to work remotely and pay no taxes and no consumption in america.
Mass immigration is used to keep the native poor in their place. It forces them to live in tents even if they work full time
It points to the very obvious fact that H1B, and other legal immigration options are a very potent filter, at least filtering people who are too lazy to go through all the paperwork.
Or many times the founders simply can't even make it into the US even though they have much needed skills.
Skilled immigration into the US is much harder and way more uncertain than other nations. Massive amounts of paperwork (so much that you need a lawyer), lotteries, long wait times and in the end highly dependent on whichever immigration officer sees your application.