Siemens LOGO PLC turns 25(ingenuity.siemens.com)
ingenuity.siemens.com
Siemens LOGO PLC turns 25
https://ingenuity.siemens.com/2021/11/the-people-behind-25-years-of-logo-helmut-schindler/
58 comments
Also good god, why are we not using certs for security on PLCs. This should have been a thing a decade ago. Only one vendor even bothers currently (Bedrock).
OPC UA support on at least Siemens S7 line supports certificates but you have to lock out S7 native protocol out by firewall or something.
Honestly i do not understand that large SV-Companies like Amazon or Tesla not just roll out there own equipment and steam-roll this whole deprecated industry.
Any IDE + git is superior to almost anything they have currently shipped. (Beckhoff at least tried)
I can only imagine the scene of a PLC-Programmer explaining to Elon, that instancing the exact same machine will take the exact same development time again & again. Cause using Parameter & Configfiles is not done - instead its pasted into the code.
Add a Steam like Online-Software shop (Dev to Dev) to it while basically vendoring the equipment for cheap and you got the whole Eco-system cornered happily forever after.
This nightmarish pre-historic dinosaurs with copy & paste monks producing software - have to go. The 80s are over.
I can only imagine the scene of a PLC-Programmer explaining to Elon, that instancing the exact same machine will take the exact same development time again & again. Cause using Parameter & Configfiles is not done - instead its pasted into the code.
Add a Steam like Online-Software shop (Dev to Dev) to it while basically vendoring the equipment for cheap and you got the whole Eco-system cornered happily forever after.
This nightmarish pre-historic dinosaurs with copy & paste monks producing software - have to go. The 80s are over.
Nobody wants it and the few that want it don't want to pay for it. Control engineering really isn't a branch of CS, its culturally its own thing.
Also, liability is a never ending hole with the actual PLC. If your web3 capable PLC keeps even 100-500K/Hr of production from running, then people will probably legally come after you.
I've though several time about building a PLC ecosystem taking the best of modern systems. Building up new features to allow the actual equipment manufacturers (OEMs are under-served) to rapidly spin up and manage variants. And enough ecosystem security that at least your production systems won't be ransomwared. But unless there is a wealth person or huge company out there that just absolutely wants to fund it, it's not economically viable (If you are that company or person, contact me).
The dealer networks and middlemen gatekeep the market pretty severely. You would have to essentially hand hold engineers into using it. And you are going to have a hard time selling it to risk-adverse C and D level managers.
Also, liability is a never ending hole with the actual PLC. If your web3 capable PLC keeps even 100-500K/Hr of production from running, then people will probably legally come after you.
I've though several time about building a PLC ecosystem taking the best of modern systems. Building up new features to allow the actual equipment manufacturers (OEMs are under-served) to rapidly spin up and manage variants. And enough ecosystem security that at least your production systems won't be ransomwared. But unless there is a wealth person or huge company out there that just absolutely wants to fund it, it's not economically viable (If you are that company or person, contact me).
The dealer networks and middlemen gatekeep the market pretty severely. You would have to essentially hand hold engineers into using it. And you are going to have a hard time selling it to risk-adverse C and D level managers.
Our technicians, who never took a programming class, maybe never went to college, can wire up thermocouples, motors, pressure transducers, etc. Then throw together some ladder logic to make everything work. You're right about the atrocious PLC SW environment but you're proposing to elevate all those jobs to an engineering function.
No, i do not. But i suggest having environments, that teach those technicians over time the basics and shove them towards searching for engineering knowledge for solutions and incooperate best practices.
I'm violently opposed to crunching those "self-thought" to death in no-code-marathons were they are expected to realize complex behaviour with declawed software-Lego-bricks.
Software is eating their world too. Have you ever seen the eyes of a guy who copy pasted a "pallet" structure together, because he never knew about arrays?
PostScriptum:
>Nobody wants it and the few that want it don't want
>to pay for it. Control engineering really isn't a
>branch of CS, its culturally its own thing.
I have heard these lines a thousand times by now.
Its different - we have processes that require hard "Real-time"-capable hard and software..
So.. Space X and all those other projects using hard real-time in the lower decks, are not software controlled devices?
Its different -we have physical processes we control at the end of day. So a amazon package logistic center is not a physical process? A self-driving car is not a physical process?
Its different, reliability is huge if the process ever fails. So Google and AWHs DevOps do not have that pressure?
Its exactly this. Just another, run-down department of CS. Run-down to save a few cents and now running into the limitations its No-Code solutions impose. Grinding good, untrained people to dust, because it wants to save money. And thus ready for disruption.
I'm violently opposed to crunching those "self-thought" to death in no-code-marathons were they are expected to realize complex behaviour with declawed software-Lego-bricks.
Software is eating their world too. Have you ever seen the eyes of a guy who copy pasted a "pallet" structure together, because he never knew about arrays?
PostScriptum:
>Nobody wants it and the few that want it don't want
>to pay for it. Control engineering really isn't a
>branch of CS, its culturally its own thing.
I have heard these lines a thousand times by now.
Its different - we have processes that require hard "Real-time"-capable hard and software..
So.. Space X and all those other projects using hard real-time in the lower decks, are not software controlled devices?
Its different -we have physical processes we control at the end of day. So a amazon package logistic center is not a physical process? A self-driving car is not a physical process?
Its different, reliability is huge if the process ever fails. So Google and AWHs DevOps do not have that pressure?
Its exactly this. Just another, run-down department of CS. Run-down to save a few cents and now running into the limitations its No-Code solutions impose. Grinding good, untrained people to dust, because it wants to save money. And thus ready for disruption.
eh, eh, I know what you mean, but in my opinion most vendors are honestly putting effort into modernizing development practices; sure, they're the usual money-grubbers we all know and love ( not! :D ), and gatekeeping is strong, but on the other hand, the sector is so vast, you are dealing with a culture which is so dragged back by past traditions, and last but not least, one's "gatekeeping" is the other's "professionalism".
Edit: Not to say that most of the times we are talking about small operations, where the PLC programmer is also electrician, plumber, chemical eng., mechanic, etc. ...
We are not only talking about big corps where hyperspecialization is the norm, the bulk of the users are (literally!) jack-of-all-trades, software is only a part, and in many cases a marginal one at that. People who have to do with PLCs are IMO far, far more diverse than the other kind of software developers.
Edit: Not to say that most of the times we are talking about small operations, where the PLC programmer is also electrician, plumber, chemical eng., mechanic, etc. ...
We are not only talking about big corps where hyperspecialization is the norm, the bulk of the users are (literally!) jack-of-all-trades, software is only a part, and in many cases a marginal one at that. People who have to do with PLCs are IMO far, far more diverse than the other kind of software developers.
Allen Bradley has 60-70% market share in the US, is objectively terrible and has been for a long time.
I meant "the most advanced" vendors ;-)
Our company developed for twincat3. Yes there is progress. And yes it is very slow.
None the less - the inheritance & interfaces work. And the community produces great stuff - low and behold. A wild UnitTest framework for PLCs appears.
https://tcunit.org/
Im not pessimistic. Im just realistic. This is not enough speed to keep up with something disruptive brewed within AMZ or TESLA.
All they have to do is piss of a billionaire with delays one to many times..
https://tcunit.org/
Im not pessimistic. Im just realistic. This is not enough speed to keep up with something disruptive brewed within AMZ or TESLA.
All they have to do is piss of a billionaire with delays one to many times..
> All they have to do is piss of a billionaire with delays one to many times..
...and nobody will follow their lead [as quickly as you comment seems to suggest].
I've just come out from a discussion with a customer (young guy, circa 30, not a "boomer"), head of a major wastewater treatment plant in my circa 4 million ppl. metro area...he doesn't trust software, he would rather put relays everywhere and go on like that.
The problem is not only the velocity of those who produce the systems, it is also the mentality at the end users' side.
This is why I say that the transition will be slower than it could be; there are so many parts involved.
If it only were a problem of "rate of innovation produced per unit of time" I would 100% agree with you (and not only 50% as I do :-) )
(BTW, any industrial automation person living in Northern Italy: be wary when working for the company whose name is like "ZIP code" in Italian, there is lots of work to do there, but the technical org is suuuuuch a mess)
...and nobody will follow their lead [as quickly as you comment seems to suggest].
I've just come out from a discussion with a customer (young guy, circa 30, not a "boomer"), head of a major wastewater treatment plant in my circa 4 million ppl. metro area...he doesn't trust software, he would rather put relays everywhere and go on like that.
The problem is not only the velocity of those who produce the systems, it is also the mentality at the end users' side.
This is why I say that the transition will be slower than it could be; there are so many parts involved.
If it only were a problem of "rate of innovation produced per unit of time" I would 100% agree with you (and not only 50% as I do :-) )
(BTW, any industrial automation person living in Northern Italy: be wary when working for the company whose name is like "ZIP code" in Italian, there is lots of work to do there, but the technical org is suuuuuch a mess)
I didn't write what you quoted but, okay, nice rant.
I think we need to distinguish SpaceX, Tesla, Amazon, where of course highly qualified embedded systems engineers are needed from the guy in Kansas automating some straightforward production tools. Horses for courses.
I think we need to distinguish SpaceX, Tesla, Amazon, where of course highly qualified embedded systems engineers are needed from the guy in Kansas automating some straightforward production tools. Horses for courses.
If one wanted to be a bit sneaky, one may ask to any tech-bro: and what about you, can you wire a thermocouple?
You are partly right, but it is not so bleak, come on.[1] It is true that the average programming practices in the sector are pretty outdated, but we do have forms of code reuse like function blocks and functions, some form of code generation via the APIs of various IDEs, etc.
The thing is, this sector is SO vast.
(Modern) software will take quite a bit to eat this world, at least simply for its size.
Industrial automation goes from smalltown electricians (this particular LOGO PLC lineup is targeted at these people), to builders of small machines still hugely relying on electro-mechanical components, to world-wide corporations, with varying levels of regulation, tolerance to risk, and so on. Not to say anything about truly advanced deployments in science projects, etc. We are basically talking about the WHOLE of what used to be called the "secondary sector of the economy", and part of the primary, AND part of the tertiary! [2]
The IEC standard, the most advanced products of nearly every vendor, and the most advanced users, are going towards (sure, at their own pace, but still) modernity, but it's just a part of a vast ocean. I personally don't think I would exaggerate if I said that the variety of attitudes towards software in industrial automation is far, far greater that the one in the "normal" software industry; coupled with the other constraints expressed in other comments, that means that is not so simple for modern practices to win, they eventually will, but it will take a quite a bit.
[1] many might laugh at the content, but have a look at the programming guidelines by Siemens https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/document/81318674/pr... and while I am at it at https://www.plc-security.com
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-sector_model
The thing is, this sector is SO vast.
(Modern) software will take quite a bit to eat this world, at least simply for its size.
Industrial automation goes from smalltown electricians (this particular LOGO PLC lineup is targeted at these people), to builders of small machines still hugely relying on electro-mechanical components, to world-wide corporations, with varying levels of regulation, tolerance to risk, and so on. Not to say anything about truly advanced deployments in science projects, etc. We are basically talking about the WHOLE of what used to be called the "secondary sector of the economy", and part of the primary, AND part of the tertiary! [2]
The IEC standard, the most advanced products of nearly every vendor, and the most advanced users, are going towards (sure, at their own pace, but still) modernity, but it's just a part of a vast ocean. I personally don't think I would exaggerate if I said that the variety of attitudes towards software in industrial automation is far, far greater that the one in the "normal" software industry; coupled with the other constraints expressed in other comments, that means that is not so simple for modern practices to win, they eventually will, but it will take a quite a bit.
[1] many might laugh at the content, but have a look at the programming guidelines by Siemens https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/document/81318674/pr... and while I am at it at https://www.plc-security.com
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-sector_model
They do that on a higher level, after the PLC. But for PLC, you need something robust and is not easy for them to it just for themselves without scale.
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Copia's mission is great and it change this market. The new Automation Engineer needs to understand much more about software now.
The hardware on these products is really great but the software development experience is total HELL. I got a Siemens PLC because I wanted to write a tutorial. I just needed an app to configure it so that it would accept messages from the network. I contacted Siemens, after a while somebody replied, when they realised I wasn't going to buy 7 truckloads of PLC they told me to download the evaluation software. The UI is very convoluted, you can see that it's an oldish software with tons of features layered on top of it... I asked on forums and reddit , the reply was "watch these few dozens of videos where everything is explained.." so the PLC is sitting there on the desk waiting for me to have the time to find someone who knows how to program these who can change that 1 setting I need.. :)
I was curious about using a PLC for brewing, to have a little play with ladder logic etc. and had a look at the CLICK PLCs which have for example an RTD module ( https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/progra... ) however even that module itself is $165. Curious if anyone has any recommendations for cheaper PLCs that support 3+ wire PT100 probes.
In general, new industrial equipment is priced for businesses who spend so much money on other expenses that they don’t really care if a PLC is $50 or $500 as long as it keeps their $50,000/day line running.
For home use, you can try eBay, but I’ve had better experiences with my local industrial surplus shop. They pretty universally (IME) have friendly staff who like talking shop, will point you toward the right equipment, and are pennies on the dollar compared to buying new.
For home use, you can try eBay, but I’ve had better experiences with my local industrial surplus shop. They pretty universally (IME) have friendly staff who like talking shop, will point you toward the right equipment, and are pennies on the dollar compared to buying new.
Yeah that's a good point about buying used, I had a little look on ebay a while ago. Will try searching for industrial surplus shops like you say though.
[deleted]
Honestly, that’s dirt cheap for a PLC. I’d say that you should have a look on Craigslist or eBay, but you probably won’t find anything much cheaper. Also, a lot of PLCs are “cheaper” because they have relatively expensive software packages required for programming them.
You’d probably do much better with a RPi and a RTD module (1-wire, i2c, etc). You wouldn’t get the ladder logic, but you could use node-red. Heck, there might even be a ladder logic based program for the RPi. I wouldn’t be surprised.
You’d probably do much better with a RPi and a RTD module (1-wire, i2c, etc). You wouldn’t get the ladder logic, but you could use node-red. Heck, there might even be a ladder logic based program for the RPi. I wouldn’t be surprised.
Usually BH is the cheaper more capable solution. Add a el3204 if its not already build into the core you buy and voila.
cheaper than that is hard. One around that is the Revolution Pi, based on Raspberry Pi, but industrial grade.
Cheers, that looks pretty interesting.
I understand that for those that have never looked on Operational Technology this looks pretty unimpressive and obsolete. And for a great part it is. For more modern devices and you search for Opto22 and PLCnext. They have not only the controller capability but also can run Linux and deploy containers.
Except thats not the target field of a Logo. If you need to run Linux and deploy containers your task is way out of the Logos target audience.
Do you know PLCnext?
I know a bit about them, and the target is completely different - PLCnext (and pretty much all of Phoenix Contact's product line) compete with current Siemens S7 generation, not LOGO. In practice, PLCnext is squarely in S7-1500 range and probably the bigger ones only.
That means heavy on Profinet usage, large powerful control units, considerable use of distributed I/O and multi-PLC operation, etc.
That means heavy on Profinet usage, large powerful control units, considerable use of distributed I/O and multi-PLC operation, etc.
(A small programmable logic controller by Siemens)
https://new.siemens.com/global/en/products/automation/system...
https://new.siemens.com/global/en/products/automation/system...
How does it compete against Arduino? Siemens is a huge company and it is quite surprising that I had never heard they have an Arduino competitor.
Edit: So, this is how it competes - 250 EUR for the software module only[1] and also only MS Windows... Does not look too impressive, frankly.
1. https://www.conrad.cz/p/siemens-6es7833-1sm62-0ye5-6es78331s...
Edit: So, this is how it competes - 250 EUR for the software module only[1] and also only MS Windows... Does not look too impressive, frankly.
1. https://www.conrad.cz/p/siemens-6es7833-1sm62-0ye5-6es78331s...
It is for different applications usually. These kind of controllers exist for a very long time and they are built to last several years (like 10, 20, even 30) and they can handle rough environments such as a wide range of temperature and dust. Arduino is now popular and great for prototyping but many won't accept simply the board on a industrial and mission critical environment.
Arduino has a "PRO" line of products built to industrial standards which specialised devices for industrial control (PLC Like) and precision agriculture. check it out here https://www.arduino.cc/pro We work with a number of companies of different sizes to implement these new products
It also seems to have a very simple drag & drop interface where you can combine input sources via logic gates to output sources, including a simulator.
Great, but you can invest the hundreds/thousands of EUR by which Arduino is cheaper in having someone do the coding/setup, no?
Arduino is definitely not cheaper. I've installed and programmed several LOGOs, and it's easy as hell. It's a compact package that already contains, in itself, enough inputs and output that can be used by i.e. electricians. An Arduino requires you to take the soldering iron into the hand.
We have some pro products built to industrial standards that replace controllers like PLC and they require zero soldering https://blog.arduino.cc/2021/05/12/portenta-machine-control-...
It is just a matter of where it is acceptable or not. If one hour of downtime will cost 100 of LOGOs, production managers won't take a risk with an Arduino not rugged.
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When you have these devices running business critical operations, businesses are usually willing to pay more for enterprise level support, which isn't really an option for Arduino (not directly from the manufacturer at least).
I'm the co-founder of Arduino, we do provide support to industrial customers through our Arduino PRO division https://www.arduino.cc/pro we work already with a number of companies to implement our Pro products in their solutions
I stand corrected! Good to know
Well, if this means running an antiquated app on a broken OS for business critical operation... I think it puts you in choosing the lesser evil situation.
On top of that I have bought 2 Siemens MSD80 ECUs (400+ EUR) and maybe around 20 VDO injectors (at 250 EUR each). The reason is not that I am a huge Siemens fan, but that the quality was and still is appaling.
On top of that I have bought 2 Siemens MSD80 ECUs (400+ EUR) and maybe around 20 VDO injectors (at 250 EUR each). The reason is not that I am a huge Siemens fan, but that the quality was and still is appaling.
There is no legacy OS as when you start it it simply starts running the program. You just need to program it on a computer, but the software suite is always updated. It is ugly indeed, but not broken.
Its very much broken by design. It has no proper Callstack debugging and thus discourages structured programming - aka use of objects and methods.
You dont use objects and methods in Logo - that goes literally against what it is. Its a FUP based programming device. I mean, it's been some time since I last held one, but I'd be _very_ surprised if you could "code" on it. The whole idea of it, is that you also can create programs on it using its on screen display
Yes, you do not. Its a no code solution for beginners.
The very same beginner who rule this industry style wise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCBPxxIjr9U
You can program it in simatic manager- which can convert other languages (KOP, AWL (Assembly-equivalent if i recall)) into FUP.
Which promotes using it for larger scale projects. Which will not have objects. Not have functions. Just kilometres of ladder logic, by the time the disaster management crew is called.
You can program it in simatic manager- which can convert other languages (KOP, AWL (Assembly-equivalent if i recall)) into FUP.
Which promotes using it for larger scale projects. Which will not have objects. Not have functions. Just kilometres of ladder logic, by the time the disaster management crew is called.
[deleted]
It doesn't compete, they are for different applications.
PLCs are industrial devices that are extremely rugged. They operate in very harsh environments: very hot or cold, oily, high vibrations, etc. They need to operate 24/7/365 without fail.
A $5,000 microcomputer might seem like a lot, but when it's responsible for controlling a $100,000/hr production line it's a drop in the bucket.
PLCs are industrial devices that are extremely rugged. They operate in very harsh environments: very hot or cold, oily, high vibrations, etc. They need to operate 24/7/365 without fail.
A $5,000 microcomputer might seem like a lot, but when it's responsible for controlling a $100,000/hr production line it's a drop in the bucket.
It fits on a DIN-rail, sitting next to cuircit breakers.
For the next years, to remain relevant, Logo needs:
- Higher input frequency
- MQTT with SparkplugB support
- Compute module, even if as optional, to allow container installation and Edge processing, possibly also ML with GPU add ons
None of those would be used by target group for LOGO.
It's the low-end of Siemens PLC, and the high level (S7-1200/1500) is much more different, does OPC UA, can support MQTT if I recall corre tly, and you can get SoftPLC options which integrate a windows environment with an API.
It's the low-end of Siemens PLC, and the high level (S7-1200/1500) is much more different, does OPC UA, can support MQTT if I recall corre tly, and you can get SoftPLC options which integrate a windows environment with an API.
That is my opinion. LOGO had several changes along the years, such as bringing Ethernet many years ago when it was usually an expensive expansion in other brands. So I see it as a compact and affordable piece that if does not continue to innovate and bring more value it will loose market to others like PLCnext and industrial grade Arduino/Raspberry Pi based ones.
That said, I still hate just about everything when it comes to PLC environments.
Copia.io is at least trying to get git going for a market that eschews version control.