Ask HN: Strategies to land fully remote $250k+ job
510 comments
Well, it is a workers market right now.
Professionally there is nothing special about me except that I really enjoy working, but for the last two remote jobs, the offer letter I received was more than what I verbally agreed on with HR. Since I am also 70 years old, I take this as good evidence of how pro-worker the job market is right now.
I offer free mentoring (see my web site) and always talk about the importance to having a beginner’s/learner’s mind. I think that what companies want is: prioritizing the company’s interests, being flexible, and being observant looking for opportunities to improve the business. Fairly straightforward strategy.
Good luck reaching your financial goals/salary number but also please remember money isn’t everything, and is much less important than our relationships with other people.
Professionally there is nothing special about me except that I really enjoy working, but for the last two remote jobs, the offer letter I received was more than what I verbally agreed on with HR. Since I am also 70 years old, I take this as good evidence of how pro-worker the job market is right now.
I offer free mentoring (see my web site) and always talk about the importance to having a beginner’s/learner’s mind. I think that what companies want is: prioritizing the company’s interests, being flexible, and being observant looking for opportunities to improve the business. Fairly straightforward strategy.
Good luck reaching your financial goals/salary number but also please remember money isn’t everything, and is much less important than our relationships with other people.
You're certainly a very inspiring person!
"Professionally there is nothing special about me except that I really enjoy working"
I think you may be underselling yourself a touch here ;)
"Professionally there is nothing special about me except that I really enjoy working"
I think you may be underselling yourself a touch here ;)
That is a sign of a person who is really good at what they do! In my career I have met few people who are really good professionally, and one common thread between all of them was that they all are really good human beings and humble. Also, all of them are very experienced. This happens because when people have experience and have seen the world, they know that there is lot to learn yet and they don't know everything.
Mad respect for you sir. What advice would you give a 35 year old software engineer who's worried about being obsolete in 10 years?
Keep learning new tech. I would expect major retraining to be required much more often than even 10 or 20 years ago. Personally, I am a big fan of Coursera and eDX online courses, but any form of study is good.
Someone from HN just emailed me about this HN thread, and I will make the same comment to you as I did in an e-mail: “”” Every morning first thing, I spend a minute or two thinking of everything that I am grateful for, and having a useful job is on my gratitude list.
If I don’t do this, then sometimes I find it more difficult to be motivated at my remote job.”””
A feeling of gratitude gives me energy to keep learning and maintain curiousity.
Someone from HN just emailed me about this HN thread, and I will make the same comment to you as I did in an e-mail: “”” Every morning first thing, I spend a minute or two thinking of everything that I am grateful for, and having a useful job is on my gratitude list.
If I don’t do this, then sometimes I find it more difficult to be motivated at my remote job.”””
A feeling of gratitude gives me energy to keep learning and maintain curiousity.
I agree. I'm 50 and don't feel as though the sun has set on my usefulness yet. I'm definitely experiencing more demand than ever.
My personal philosophy is similar and I very much love the work I do.
1. My role is to help the team.
2. Stay humble. There is always a better way to do something and we're very lucky to be in our position.
3. Practice not talking. Let others have the experience of figuring it out for themselves. Interject if you can help get them unstuck.
4. Always be learning.
My personal philosophy is similar and I very much love the work I do.
1. My role is to help the team.
2. Stay humble. There is always a better way to do something and we're very lucky to be in our position.
3. Practice not talking. Let others have the experience of figuring it out for themselves. Interject if you can help get them unstuck.
4. Always be learning.
I'm 55. I'm tired of learning. I've been learning for 30+ years of professional software work, and none of it applies to any new jobs I might want to seek (I'm talking about specific languages, platforms, buzzwords, etc.)
The pace of change is faster than the average person can keep up with and still be competent.
I can see that by the time I retire, the knowledge I have spent my adult life acquiring will be useless historical trivia. It's depressing. My plan when I retire is to have nothing whatsoever to do with software. It can't come soon enough.
The pace of change is faster than the average person can keep up with and still be competent.
I can see that by the time I retire, the knowledge I have spent my adult life acquiring will be useless historical trivia. It's depressing. My plan when I retire is to have nothing whatsoever to do with software. It can't come soon enough.
> The pace of change is faster than the average person can keep up with and still be competent.
The pace of change is faster than the average person can keep up with each change, but because more and more new technologies and niches are being created, there are more and more opportunities to be competent in a certain niche.
It's also so much about your mindset. Seeing the difference in positive and negative mindset between you and the comment root is eye opening. When you think everything is "useless historical trivia" and is "depressing", of course anything you try to learn will be useless, tiring and depressing.
One of the things I'm trying to really improve in my own personal life is my mindset. I have/had a mindset similar to yours (I'm much younger too) and I've noticed how draining it is to my overall mental health. I'm trying to be more optimistic and positive about things. Life is too short to be depressed and upset about something you spend 1/3 of your waking hours doing.
The pace of change is faster than the average person can keep up with each change, but because more and more new technologies and niches are being created, there are more and more opportunities to be competent in a certain niche.
It's also so much about your mindset. Seeing the difference in positive and negative mindset between you and the comment root is eye opening. When you think everything is "useless historical trivia" and is "depressing", of course anything you try to learn will be useless, tiring and depressing.
One of the things I'm trying to really improve in my own personal life is my mindset. I have/had a mindset similar to yours (I'm much younger too) and I've noticed how draining it is to my overall mental health. I'm trying to be more optimistic and positive about things. Life is too short to be depressed and upset about something you spend 1/3 of your waking hours doing.
I used to have that positive outlook. Work was exciting, and fun. Over time, the reality became impossible to deny.
Yup, that's why I'm trying to make the positive mindset a habit and hopefully keep it as I get older. We'll see how it ends up.
Ignorance can be bliss.
> The pace of change is faster than the average person can keep up with and still be competent.
I'm only 35, but until now I feel the opposite is true.
I've started to learn C, HTML, CSS, Javascript when I was a teenager more than 20 years ago. The knowledge and skills I learned then are still as relevant today as they were then.
Sure, there's flexbox now instead of tables, but the basic idea of HTML vs CSS vs Javascript is still the same, I can still make a basic website for a project in a few hours. Vertically centering something on the screen is still harder than it should be.
C now lets me declare variables anywhere, and there's a nicer syntax for initialising structs, but pointers work the same as they did 20 years ago. Knowing C is still as useful today as it was then.
My main focus for some years has been Mac desktop development. While a lot of new things was introduced in the last decade, it has all been mostly incremental changes, and even if you skipped a few years of progress catching up isn't that hard.
It helps to be aware of some general trends. I've read about async/await years ago when it was introduced in C# I think? and now it's coming in Swift. Sure, it's a slightly different way of thinking about concurrency, but one or two new concepts every 5 years should be doable.
Also, you don't need to learn everything. For example, the whole Reactive / Flux technologies with event sources and subscribers sounded really interesting, but I never really was able to get into them (you can probably tell by the fact that this paragraph makes no sense), and I'm doing just fine.
I'm only 35, but until now I feel the opposite is true.
I've started to learn C, HTML, CSS, Javascript when I was a teenager more than 20 years ago. The knowledge and skills I learned then are still as relevant today as they were then.
Sure, there's flexbox now instead of tables, but the basic idea of HTML vs CSS vs Javascript is still the same, I can still make a basic website for a project in a few hours. Vertically centering something on the screen is still harder than it should be.
C now lets me declare variables anywhere, and there's a nicer syntax for initialising structs, but pointers work the same as they did 20 years ago. Knowing C is still as useful today as it was then.
My main focus for some years has been Mac desktop development. While a lot of new things was introduced in the last decade, it has all been mostly incremental changes, and even if you skipped a few years of progress catching up isn't that hard.
It helps to be aware of some general trends. I've read about async/await years ago when it was introduced in C# I think? and now it's coming in Swift. Sure, it's a slightly different way of thinking about concurrency, but one or two new concepts every 5 years should be doable.
Also, you don't need to learn everything. For example, the whole Reactive / Flux technologies with event sources and subscribers sounded really interesting, but I never really was able to get into them (you can probably tell by the fact that this paragraph makes no sense), and I'm doing just fine.
>I'm tired of learning.
Me too friend... It's also quite exhausting to see things change so much when the overall results and methods are mostly just ways of doing the same things that were done before (Since Ajax) and they're also becoming more complex than the methods used before to implement with no major added value and just an alternate set of unresolved issues to work around.
For new gigs, frequently get vague job descriptions which at the end of the day mean that I'm pretty much boing everything by myself and reporting to 3-4 useless managers that know buzz words, but don't know tech at all.
I've pretty much had enough, if we weren't stuck in a pandemic currently I'd be on a beach somewhere exotic, but at least I moved out of the expensive & stressful city work hustle.
Me too friend... It's also quite exhausting to see things change so much when the overall results and methods are mostly just ways of doing the same things that were done before (Since Ajax) and they're also becoming more complex than the methods used before to implement with no major added value and just an alternate set of unresolved issues to work around.
For new gigs, frequently get vague job descriptions which at the end of the day mean that I'm pretty much boing everything by myself and reporting to 3-4 useless managers that know buzz words, but don't know tech at all.
I've pretty much had enough, if we weren't stuck in a pandemic currently I'd be on a beach somewhere exotic, but at least I moved out of the expensive & stressful city work hustle.
Ok, so given your position I can see how learning a new framework might be something you would be tired of, especially as you suspect that the knowledge you gain will be obsolete in 2 years and how much time do you want to spend learning cruft which doesn't last, because you've already done than 10 times.
I'd say the answer is to move up the career ladder. Let the new people learn the new framework, your value add is you know the types of mistakes people make when working in a new framework (programmer mistakes and manager/planing mistakes), and with your support the younger team members will be 10x as productive. Your steady hand gets the project delivered on time/budget despite the massive underestimation of technology risk.
And you can do this w/o moving into management.
I'd say the answer is to move up the career ladder. Let the new people learn the new framework, your value add is you know the types of mistakes people make when working in a new framework (programmer mistakes and manager/planing mistakes), and with your support the younger team members will be 10x as productive. Your steady hand gets the project delivered on time/budget despite the massive underestimation of technology risk.
And you can do this w/o moving into management.
> I can see that by the time I retire, the knowledge I have spent my adult life acquiring will be useless historical trivia. It's depressing.
Is that so bad? I expect the more important thing are the results that the learning allowed you to render. If the knowledge has a half-life but you contributed to or built something meaningful that endures, isn't that what matters? The knowledge and skills are like the scaffolding that allow you to arrive at a certain height or build something of value. And at the end they can be taken away and you're left with the fruits.
Unless, of course, your intention is to have knowledge that you can pass on to future generations via writing/training.
Is that so bad? I expect the more important thing are the results that the learning allowed you to render. If the knowledge has a half-life but you contributed to or built something meaningful that endures, isn't that what matters? The knowledge and skills are like the scaffolding that allow you to arrive at a certain height or build something of value. And at the end they can be taken away and you're left with the fruits.
Unless, of course, your intention is to have knowledge that you can pass on to future generations via writing/training.
If it’s any solace there’s no honour in what you’ve spent your time learning.
I’m a mechanical engineer by training and my “knowledge” is as concrete as it could get besides something like physics or pure mathematics. In theory I can design and create wonderful things in the physical world instead of random API’s on a server somewhere. Does it matter? Not one bit!
Useless historical trivia like why we used x tech stack or why that engine sounds a little funny at 3250rpm are what provided value at the time, but times change and that’s okay.
I suspect no matter what career we pursued there would always be some part of it that seem frivolous to us.
I’m a mechanical engineer by training and my “knowledge” is as concrete as it could get besides something like physics or pure mathematics. In theory I can design and create wonderful things in the physical world instead of random API’s on a server somewhere. Does it matter? Not one bit!
Useless historical trivia like why we used x tech stack or why that engine sounds a little funny at 3250rpm are what provided value at the time, but times change and that’s okay.
I suspect no matter what career we pursued there would always be some part of it that seem frivolous to us.
I am 50+ myself and really surprised that you think so. All my knowledge and experience is still relevant and valuables today. Would you mind letting us know more details of why you think your experience is not valuable?
Today is the first day of the rest of your life. Well, that's true of every day except one, the day you die.
The question is what do you want to do? What's important to you? All knowledge will be obsolete or obvious. The question is what do you want out of life?
I'm blessed to be doing fun stuff with amazing people. Definitely grateful for this amazing life even though it's short. We're all going to be dead much longer than we're going to be alive. Think about what is important to you and go after it.
The question is what do you want to do? What's important to you? All knowledge will be obsolete or obvious. The question is what do you want out of life?
I'm blessed to be doing fun stuff with amazing people. Definitely grateful for this amazing life even though it's short. We're all going to be dead much longer than we're going to be alive. Think about what is important to you and go after it.
Same here. I've been in technology for 30+ years. I cannot wait for the day, I can close my laptop lid and just walk away. It cannot come fast enough.
A piece of unasked for advice: why wait? Honestly, life is too short. Go do what makes you happy.
Unfortunately I have a family member that depends on consistent medical insurance.
It is one thing to do what I find happy, it is another thing to take care of others.
It is one thing to do what I find happy, it is another thing to take care of others.
I’m sorry to hear that. In a certain way staying, then, means maximizing happiness (decent job plus consistent medical insurance >= new job)
No worries. Tough times don't last, tough people do.
Just think how the US workforce would look if people could do what they love, versus working only because of the benefits.
Just think how the US workforce would look if people could do what they love, versus working only because of the benefits.
Yep me too. I am 50+ and sharper than ever. Having more than 40 years of programming experience makes it easy for me to solve most software development problems. However I am still learning how to handle difficult personalities. That is still a challenge. I am getting better though.
Thanks for your response. If I may continue to pick your mind, can you elaborate on what you consider new tech? Do you refer to new languages, frameworks, programming paradigms? Also, what is your suggestion for learning algorithms and data structures?
Examples of "new tech": common use of deep learning models in many types of applications and services, higher level web based tools for managing data and infrastructure, mobile devices that can do on-device deep learning model inferencing and sometimes even training, etc.
I like and enjoy several programming languages, but I don't consider new languages and frameworks to be paradigm shifting. Still interesting though.
As someone else here mentioned, there are so many new tech niches being created; learn one or two.
Having work life balance is super important, but I find that skipping watching movies or TV a couple evenings a week gives me plenty of off-work time to learn new stuff. My wife accepts that a few evening a week I don't join her in watching a movie after dinner (we sit in the same room, and she puts on earphones).
I like and enjoy several programming languages, but I don't consider new languages and frameworks to be paradigm shifting. Still interesting though.
As someone else here mentioned, there are so many new tech niches being created; learn one or two.
Having work life balance is super important, but I find that skipping watching movies or TV a couple evenings a week gives me plenty of off-work time to learn new stuff. My wife accepts that a few evening a week I don't join her in watching a movie after dinner (we sit in the same room, and she puts on earphones).
You touched on something I struggle with. If it's not too personal do you mind if I ask how you navigated that discussion with your wife?
I hold great hope that one day I'll be able to spend 5-10 hours a week learning.
I hold great hope that one day I'll be able to spend 5-10 hours a week learning.
Have an honest discussion and don’t make it an argument.
The best thing I’ve done for the family is set expectations that I’ll only be working for 15 minutes to an hour. I call it “plodding”. Then I really try to get something done in that time. Ever since I started plodding, and stuck to the promise, my wife has been supportive. She’s even supportive of late nights and weekends if I will avoid locking myself in a room for hours at a time.
Sounds like you have a good life.
Hey Mark
how the hell did you manage to write 20 books?
Im interested in writing books but i cant seem to have enough time to make it a top priority for me
also how do you keep healthy at 70?
would you also say that in your case, tech is one of your primary hobbies?
also any advice on writing your first patent outside of your employer?
Im interested in writing books but i cant seem to have enough time to make it a top priority for me
also how do you keep healthy at 70?
would you also say that in your case, tech is one of your primary hobbies?
also any advice on writing your first patent outside of your employer?
I have written 20 books over a 35 year period. Also, since 1998 I have gone on cycles of working a couple of years and then taking lots of time off. I do most of my writing during the time off periods.
Re: health: I try to walk or hike five to 8 hours a week, if I have time. I am mostly a vegetarian. I try to get a lot of sleep. Also, my Dad is 100 and in good health so maybe I got lucky in the gene pool.
My hobbies are cooking, reading (I have been going nuts with Chinese sci-fi recently), and hiking.
Re patents: there is no way I would try for a patent on my own. My patents were all team efforts with the help of highly skilled corporate patent lawyers.
Re: health: I try to walk or hike five to 8 hours a week, if I have time. I am mostly a vegetarian. I try to get a lot of sleep. Also, my Dad is 100 and in good health so maybe I got lucky in the gene pool.
My hobbies are cooking, reading (I have been going nuts with Chinese sci-fi recently), and hiking.
Re patents: there is no way I would try for a patent on my own. My patents were all team efforts with the help of highly skilled corporate patent lawyers.
> relationships with other people.
Sir, I think that's the most difficult part of being a worker as most can fulfill the technical requirements for a work with practice but investing in relationships is something I feel few can do successfully.
And I'm not one of them, I don't like talking and I've almost cut real time-communications completely. Due to which I refuse to indulge in great offers almost every week, As not many would entertain the idea of employing someone who communicates only via email.
Besides the pandemic induced remote work has made real time-communication via chat, video calls the de-facto mode for official communication. The stories of managers forcing employees to be online on teams during work hours and most of the day spent on useless online meeting-calls are stuffs of nightmare for me.
Sir, I think that's the most difficult part of being a worker as most can fulfill the technical requirements for a work with practice but investing in relationships is something I feel few can do successfully.
And I'm not one of them, I don't like talking and I've almost cut real time-communications completely. Due to which I refuse to indulge in great offers almost every week, As not many would entertain the idea of employing someone who communicates only via email.
Besides the pandemic induced remote work has made real time-communication via chat, video calls the de-facto mode for official communication. The stories of managers forcing employees to be online on teams during work hours and most of the day spent on useless online meeting-calls are stuffs of nightmare for me.
I don’t think you’re talking about the same thing. It appears that you are not a fulltime exclusive salaried “exempt” employee of any one company, and you have not been for many years if ever. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
My last three jobs (including my current role) are as a salaried employee. I decided the overhead was too high getting consulting work and I also wanted to get back into working on teams.
That said, I do take long periods off work which is when I do a lot of writing.
That said, I do take long periods off work which is when I do a lot of writing.
A true Renaissance man!
Thank you for making the world a better place.
Thank you for making the world a better place.
[deleted]
Leverage.
If your work improves the productivity of 100+ other people, you're surely worth the price.
If your work saves $500k+ in annual costs, you're surely worth the price.
If hiring you cripples key competitors, you're surely worth the price.
If you can enable new revenues streams through knowledge that only you have, you're surely worth the price.
If hiring you does not increase productivity, reduce costs, fend off competition, or bring in more revenue, then you'll be fighting an uphill battle to justify that salary. But if you do, talk about it. People gossip and those companies who have the biggest multiplier to benefit off your work will be working hard to reach you.
In my opinion, remote or not is less important than you think. The key decisions will be based on whether hiring you at that price is a net positive for the company or not.
EDIT: And if you're outside of the US, set up a local LLC so that US-based companies can treat you like an independent contracting business. That'll make it much easier to hire you across borders. And at that price, you can surely afford the $1000 annually for a tax advisor retainer.
If your work improves the productivity of 100+ other people, you're surely worth the price.
If your work saves $500k+ in annual costs, you're surely worth the price.
If hiring you cripples key competitors, you're surely worth the price.
If you can enable new revenues streams through knowledge that only you have, you're surely worth the price.
If hiring you does not increase productivity, reduce costs, fend off competition, or bring in more revenue, then you'll be fighting an uphill battle to justify that salary. But if you do, talk about it. People gossip and those companies who have the biggest multiplier to benefit off your work will be working hard to reach you.
In my opinion, remote or not is less important than you think. The key decisions will be based on whether hiring you at that price is a net positive for the company or not.
EDIT: And if you're outside of the US, set up a local LLC so that US-based companies can treat you like an independent contracting business. That'll make it much easier to hire you across borders. And at that price, you can surely afford the $1000 annually for a tax advisor retainer.
> If your work improves the productivity of 100+ other people, you're surely worth the price.
> If your work saves $500k+ in annual costs, you're surely worth the price.
This is only half of the story, though.
The real question is whether or not the company can accomplish the same thing at similar quality in a similar timeframe by hiring someone with a lower compensation request.
The value you produce for a company sets the ceiling for your compensation, but not the floor. The floor is set by market rate compensation that other developers are asking for the same job. Developers also tend to forget that the features they code and ship require input from a lot of other people along the way: Managers to manage it, QA to test it, security team to review it, devops to help monitor it, designers to design it, and so on. If you look at a single feature, estimate the revenue, and then assign 100% of that upside to your own work then an experienced hiring manager is just going to roll their eyes at the hubris.
What you really need is an ability to show that you, specifically, have a track record of accomplishing these things better, faster, and with less headaches than the other people applying for the job. A track record of professionalism, upward movement through notable companies, and references helps greatly.
The key isn’t just to show that you can do these things. It’s to show that the company will benefit significantly by hiring you, at a premium, relative to hiring any one of the tens or hundreds of average developers they can find who will do similar work for less. The ideal highly paid candidate is one who can show a track record of self-managing and big picture thinking as much as possible. If I’m paying someone a premium salary, I expect they will require less hands-on management time and will streamline their interactions with the rest of the team, saving us both time and money. Find a way to show that in the interview.
> If your work saves $500k+ in annual costs, you're surely worth the price.
This is only half of the story, though.
The real question is whether or not the company can accomplish the same thing at similar quality in a similar timeframe by hiring someone with a lower compensation request.
The value you produce for a company sets the ceiling for your compensation, but not the floor. The floor is set by market rate compensation that other developers are asking for the same job. Developers also tend to forget that the features they code and ship require input from a lot of other people along the way: Managers to manage it, QA to test it, security team to review it, devops to help monitor it, designers to design it, and so on. If you look at a single feature, estimate the revenue, and then assign 100% of that upside to your own work then an experienced hiring manager is just going to roll their eyes at the hubris.
What you really need is an ability to show that you, specifically, have a track record of accomplishing these things better, faster, and with less headaches than the other people applying for the job. A track record of professionalism, upward movement through notable companies, and references helps greatly.
The key isn’t just to show that you can do these things. It’s to show that the company will benefit significantly by hiring you, at a premium, relative to hiring any one of the tens or hundreds of average developers they can find who will do similar work for less. The ideal highly paid candidate is one who can show a track record of self-managing and big picture thinking as much as possible. If I’m paying someone a premium salary, I expect they will require less hands-on management time and will streamline their interactions with the rest of the team, saving us both time and money. Find a way to show that in the interview.
I agree. At that price point, I expect that I can just forward emails from a customer complaining about an issue and said developer will understand the underlying problems, come up with a plan, talk to related coworkers, and self-manage rollout of the patch.
In short, they save me time and effort because I don't need to babysit them where cheaper and less experienced developers would need my planning and guidance.
In short, they save me time and effort because I don't need to babysit them where cheaper and less experienced developers would need my planning and guidance.
The most straight forward way to go about this is applying for jobs with real leadership responsibility, and having the experience to confidently interview for such a position.
If you join a company in a position to impact the productivity of the entire engineering org, then getting $250k base and full-time remote is reality.
Getting an IC position at those comp levels is far more difficult.
If you join a company in a position to impact the productivity of the entire engineering org, then getting $250k base and full-time remote is reality.
Getting an IC position at those comp levels is far more difficult.
> if you're outside of the US, set up a local LLC so that US-based companies can treat you like an independent contracting business. That'll make it much easier to hire you across borders. And at that price, you can surely afford the $1000 annually for a tax advisor retainer.
In my experience you shouldn't need to do this. In fact, I suspect doing this creates both a taxation and legal nightmare.
You should have a registered company (or any other trading entity) so you can bill as an independent contractor. However, it should be registered in your country of residence. Services like Deel exist specifically to facilitate this sort of arrangement, it's a breeze.
If you register a company in the US, you can't just arbitrarily transfer the money to yourself internationally. You'd need to pay yourself as an international independent contractor anyway. Except then you create legal issues, since there are likely legal issues with a company you run hiring another company you run. Additionally, by operating two companies, you're presumably filing two company tax returns, and paying yearly registration fees for two companies.
In my experience you shouldn't need to do this. In fact, I suspect doing this creates both a taxation and legal nightmare.
You should have a registered company (or any other trading entity) so you can bill as an independent contractor. However, it should be registered in your country of residence. Services like Deel exist specifically to facilitate this sort of arrangement, it's a breeze.
If you register a company in the US, you can't just arbitrarily transfer the money to yourself internationally. You'd need to pay yourself as an international independent contractor anyway. Except then you create legal issues, since there are likely legal issues with a company you run hiring another company you run. Additionally, by operating two companies, you're presumably filing two company tax returns, and paying yearly registration fees for two companies.
> In my experience you shouldn't need to do this. In fact, I suspect doing this creates both a taxation and legal nightmare.
Have worked with both arrangements. Much easier to deal with a US based LLC than anything that is managing payroll. For the contractor the LLC arrangement may end up being better, too because at least in the US corporations pay tax in arrears, and individuals have money withheld in advance.
> Except then you create legal issues, since there are likely legal issues with a company you run hiring another company you run.
For a simple business, this is actually simple (at least the US part of it). Revenue - Cost yields a very modest profit in the US so there's probably not going to be a lot of tax liability. Not sure what the nightmare is. For the group I used, their books were super simple in the US, and equally simple at home.
Have worked with both arrangements. Much easier to deal with a US based LLC than anything that is managing payroll. For the contractor the LLC arrangement may end up being better, too because at least in the US corporations pay tax in arrears, and individuals have money withheld in advance.
> Except then you create legal issues, since there are likely legal issues with a company you run hiring another company you run.
For a simple business, this is actually simple (at least the US part of it). Revenue - Cost yields a very modest profit in the US so there's probably not going to be a lot of tax liability. Not sure what the nightmare is. For the group I used, their books were super simple in the US, and equally simple at home.
It’s simple to play invoices to foreign consultants. I’ve been working for American clients for years, I’d never register anything in the US and have to deal with US authorities.
If you are providing services online which programming is while being a non resident alien through your LLC you are owning 0% taxes to the USA. There are nuances and you should check with proper tax advisors, but that is how it should work.
This is the same in most countries i.e. income = expenses means no profit and therefore no tax.
However, you need to pay tax in your country of residence still. You also need to file with the IRS for the corp indicating zero profit. Plus US registration fees.
You also need to maintain a legal paper trail i.e. the money coming into the US corp needs to be paid out to an international company anyway.
However, you need to pay tax in your country of residence still. You also need to file with the IRS for the corp indicating zero profit. Plus US registration fees.
You also need to maintain a legal paper trail i.e. the money coming into the US corp needs to be paid out to an international company anyway.
Yeah, there is overhead, and of-course that you need to pay taxes where you are a tax resident. But, if that overhead enables you to charge much more than it is worth it.
I've got stock option to my LLC from one startup recently. It was much much easier than figuring how to do that for one person in other part of the world.
My friends and I have not had issues receiving US stock options either. Carta can assist with this to a degree. NSOs though, not eligible for ISOs.
Admittedly, we're based in Australia, and there are Australia-US tax treaties that make the whole arrangement a bit simpler.
Admittedly, we're based in Australia, and there are Australia-US tax treaties that make the whole arrangement a bit simpler.
Can you elaborate on Deel please. How does it help? I cant seem to find a link online. appreciate the help.
Domain it's letsdeel.com, they act as intermediaries and you invoice through them..
I've worked for american startups, and the contract/invoicing was through them
remote.com is another such similar service.
I've worked for american startups, and the contract/invoicing was through them
remote.com is another such similar service.
> EDIT: And if you're outside of the US, set up a local LLC so that US-based companies can treat you like an independent contracting business.
By local, do you mean a US-based company (eg delaware), or local to where you are?
By local, do you mean a US-based company (eg delaware), or local to where you are?
I believe he do mean a US LLC, most defaults to Delaware or Nevada. It has become much easier for NON-US residents to form such entities these days. Doola (formerly StartPack, a YC Company) is a good option. Not affiliated with Doola but the founder is a nice guy.
https://www.doola.com
https://www.doola.com
IANAL but I was looking into starting a US consulting company recently, and one of the tricky things is you have to "foreign-qualify" (IIRC) your Delaware/Nevada LLC in California if you are going to do any business there, which for a tech consultancy is quite likely. Then your tax situation suddenly becomes complex and (relatively) expensive, in case that is related to your interest in Delaware or especially Nevada.
Now, whether you can get around this by being fully remote and effectively saying "no, CaliCorp came to Nevada to do business with me, not the other way around" -- that's an interesting question.
Now, whether you can get around this by being fully remote and effectively saying "no, CaliCorp came to Nevada to do business with me, not the other way around" -- that's an interesting question.
Hey biztos, arjun here from doola, you're 100% correct here. A common mistake people make is form an LLC in a state that they don't live in. They then have to "foreign qualify" in the state they "do business in" = the state they live in. The definition of "do business in" is essentially you have a physical presence there = you live and work there, have a physical office there, W2 employees etc.
The best advice to "what state should I form my LLC in?" is: - IF you live in the US: form in the state you live in (to avoid the foreign qualification in another state). - IF you don't live in the US: you can choose any state. The most popular states we see at doola are Delaware and Wyoming but Wyoming is the most popular due to the lower ongoing annual fees ($50 to WY vs $300 to DE) and Wyoming has demonstrated it's willingness to innovate when it comes to regulation (like the DAO LLC legislation passed on 7/1/21.)
For more on DAOs check out this blog post: https://www.doola.com/blog/what-is-a-dao-llc-your-complete-g...)
And for a complete answer to "Best state to form an LLC in" check out this blog post: https://www.doola.com/blog/what-is-the-best-state-to-form-my...
The best advice to "what state should I form my LLC in?" is: - IF you live in the US: form in the state you live in (to avoid the foreign qualification in another state). - IF you don't live in the US: you can choose any state. The most popular states we see at doola are Delaware and Wyoming but Wyoming is the most popular due to the lower ongoing annual fees ($50 to WY vs $300 to DE) and Wyoming has demonstrated it's willingness to innovate when it comes to regulation (like the DAO LLC legislation passed on 7/1/21.)
For more on DAOs check out this blog post: https://www.doola.com/blog/what-is-a-dao-llc-your-complete-g...)
And for a complete answer to "Best state to form an LLC in" check out this blog post: https://www.doola.com/blog/what-is-the-best-state-to-form-my...
It's 100% normal for cali companies to contract non-cali companies. Especially DE/NV corps.
As long as your corporate residency is in check, you file annual reports and pay taxes you are 100% in the clear.
As long as your corporate residency is in check, you file annual reports and pay taxes you are 100% in the clear.
Yup, we at doola have a Delaware C Corp but because we "do business" in NYC (physical office, HQ is there, employees there) we have to do the "foreign LLC filing" to stay compliant and in the clear.
wow $200/mo recurring fee.. and they don't do your taxes? operating a compliant LLC isn't that complicated. I'd be curious to hear what they're doing that is worth $2500/yr.
Hey steve, arjun here from doola, this is really valuable feedback because *we do your taxes (form 5472/1120) AND your annual compliance as part of our plan! Our messaging / copy clearly doesn't indicate this / message this properly so we are going to implement a fix asap that improves this.
As to justifying the cost for our plan, if you factor in the cost of having a lawyer/CPA do your IRS filings (there can be heavy fines up to $25K for not filing or incorrectly filing form 5472 https://www.doola.com/blog/filing-requirements-for-foreign-o...) and certain CPAs can charge well upwards of $1000 for this filing alone + your annual report with the state + registered agent, US address, our entire perks and rewards database (https://www.doola.com/rewards), and access to us on a monthly bases for free tax consultations, LLC amendments etc, we've heard there is lots of value BUT we are always on the lookout to add more and as a little sneak peek, stay tuned for some bookkeeping, payroll + banking stuff we have in the works (note we can help with all three of these things now but we do it through partners, we have some ideas to more tightly integrate / embed this in to our offering to provide even more value and a better customer experience).
As to justifying the cost for our plan, if you factor in the cost of having a lawyer/CPA do your IRS filings (there can be heavy fines up to $25K for not filing or incorrectly filing form 5472 https://www.doola.com/blog/filing-requirements-for-foreign-o...) and certain CPAs can charge well upwards of $1000 for this filing alone + your annual report with the state + registered agent, US address, our entire perks and rewards database (https://www.doola.com/rewards), and access to us on a monthly bases for free tax consultations, LLC amendments etc, we've heard there is lots of value BUT we are always on the lookout to add more and as a little sneak peek, stay tuned for some bookkeeping, payroll + banking stuff we have in the works (note we can help with all three of these things now but we do it through partners, we have some ideas to more tightly integrate / embed this in to our offering to provide even more value and a better customer experience).
Yeah, that's abrasive even by the warped incorporation services standards.
They take advantage of people that have an initial negative reaction to doing anything that sounds "legal-y" but really all they are doing is submitting 2 forms (certificate of organization with the state, application for EIN with IRS), giving you some template document for an operating agreement, and then once a year filing a one-page form to keep the company in good standing. If you're paying more than $100 for this, you're being taken for a ride.
They take advantage of people that have an initial negative reaction to doing anything that sounds "legal-y" but really all they are doing is submitting 2 forms (certificate of organization with the state, application for EIN with IRS), giving you some template document for an operating agreement, and then once a year filing a one-page form to keep the company in good standing. If you're paying more than $100 for this, you're being taken for a ride.
It costs around $150 to file articles of corporation/llc, and then an annual report is $99-149 depending per state.
EIN is free. You can do all above, in less than 30 minutes.
Not to defend, atlas, or this or any other service, but if they act as an agent or offer a virtual address, they may be why the cost is high. You do need a physical office address, even if it's a virtual office, for service, and paperwork.
You should be able to find the agency/agency of incorporation for the state - https://corp.delaware.gov/howtoform/ this is for Delaware, and right there #2 is registered agent.
Depending who you go to for virtual office, it may be $50-200/month.
Now, is it a business idea to offer this service yourself, rent a space, and also have an accountant, - yes.
--
But it's pretty cheap in general, other countries in the world, the cost of doing business for this meta/paperwork is double or triple.
In Indonesia, Doing a PT. PMA, sort of similar to a LLC, minimum setup cost is about $4000, but it nets you a visa.
Japan, requires $50,000 fiat, getting a hanko - and while it gets you a visa, is much more complicated.
EIN is free. You can do all above, in less than 30 minutes.
Not to defend, atlas, or this or any other service, but if they act as an agent or offer a virtual address, they may be why the cost is high. You do need a physical office address, even if it's a virtual office, for service, and paperwork.
You should be able to find the agency/agency of incorporation for the state - https://corp.delaware.gov/howtoform/ this is for Delaware, and right there #2 is registered agent.
Depending who you go to for virtual office, it may be $50-200/month.
Now, is it a business idea to offer this service yourself, rent a space, and also have an accountant, - yes.
--
But it's pretty cheap in general, other countries in the world, the cost of doing business for this meta/paperwork is double or triple.
In Indonesia, Doing a PT. PMA, sort of similar to a LLC, minimum setup cost is about $4000, but it nets you a visa.
Japan, requires $50,000 fiat, getting a hanko - and while it gets you a visa, is much more complicated.
Hey! Responded to steves comment above with more color on what is included in our plan (tldr we do include IRS tax filing + annual compliance and more) but it is again very valuable for us to see that we are not messaging this clearly enough on our pricing page!
I presume they're charging for knowing what to do & how to do it correctly, not just for the time spent doing it.
Hi! Arjun here from doola. This is spot on, we have worked with 1000s of customers and we believe we're experts BUT that doesn't justify not having enough value in our offering and we are always on the lookout / prowl to add additional services/products to our suite to truly provide a "one-stop-shop" offering!
[deleted]
even that's a high charge. if I showed you the processes they were doing then you would laugh. Only exception would maybe be if you were creating a Delaware corporation.
Looks like a good service. Often the problem with setting up a business in a foreign country is not registering the company, but opening a bank account for the business, so you can get paid easily by customers in that country - which is really the whole point of the exercise.
Thanks Jack You are 100% correct, people don't really want an LLC, they want a way to transact globally in the US dollar and to do that they need a US bank account + US payments.
We work with many different banking and payment partners (https://www.doola.com/rewards) and not only help folks go from 0 -> bank account but also keep the LLC compliant in the background (annual compliance, IRS tax filings, and more!)
We work with many different banking and payment partners (https://www.doola.com/rewards) and not only help folks go from 0 -> bank account but also keep the LLC compliant in the background (annual compliance, IRS tax filings, and more!)
Hey Brajeshwar, Arjun from doola here, thank you so much for sharing us
I formed an LLC for 350$ through a service, online. Yearly I pay additional 190$ for maintenance and address.
edit: They also helped me open a Mercury bank account
edit: They also helped me open a Mercury bank account
Hey! If you're interested in other banking options check out https://www.doola.com/rewards. Feel free to email us at hello at doola dot com as well and we can see if we can intro you to the banking partner!
The other option is to use Stripe Atlas[1] to start an LLC and get a Bank account from Mercury[2]. Most other banks will need you to be physically present stateside unless you are part of an institute that takes care of that (YC, On Deck, etc.)
1. https://stripe.com/atlas
2. https://mercury.com
1. https://stripe.com/atlas
2. https://mercury.com
Local to where you are is enough for companies to treat you like an independent contracting business. The key thing is that you _are_ an independent contracting business.
The local government will most likely have an issue with you working for an foreign company that you own yourself, and it will likely be more complicated when you deal with taxes and banks. It will be easier if you are like most other companies in your country, easier to find information about government laws and tax rules, and easier to find people for advice.
If you're not a US person the best setup would be a single-member LLC in a state like Wyoming (Delaware is more for corporations). I currently have an LLC and if you structure it well you could even get all the perks of being incorporated in the US while paying 0 taxes (pass-through taxation). Check out firstbase.io, they can handle all the bureaucracy for you.
I'm also wondering. but I would guess some companies only or more easily treat with locally based LLC than foreign entities. And those dealing with foreign entities probably favor those located in juridiction they feel comply with their rules. E.G only a few will deal with an entity based in Iran or China. Some industries are not even allowed to trade with a list of countries.
> Some industries are not even allowed to trade with a list of countries.
To be clear, in the US, that would also limit dealing with any LLC who's beneficial ownership is sanctioned.
To be clear, in the US, that would also limit dealing with any LLC who's beneficial ownership is sanctioned.
Local to wherever your customers and/or employer are. They can use their normal process for expenditure or payroll or whatever in their accounting software to pay him.
In my experience US companies had no problem paying my Austrian invoices. Setting up an LLC in the US sounds like an expensive and unnecessary bureaucratic nightmare when all you want to do is a bit of contract work.
I've also talked to a bunch of people who have done contract work for US companies, and they all just have a business registered in their home country.
Noone wants to be subject to US taxation voluntarily.
I've also talked to a bunch of people who have done contract work for US companies, and they all just have a business registered in their home country.
Noone wants to be subject to US taxation voluntarily.
Good and relevant question! Hope to see an answer to it
Most work is done in teams, so it's difficult to say whether you are e.g. responsible for saving $X.
> ...And if you're outside of the US, set up a local LLC so that US-based companies can treat you like an independent contracting business....
This has to be one of the top ten best pieces of advice I have seen on HN.
This has to be one of the top ten best pieces of advice I have seen on HN.
Would you mind sharing the remaining 9? Thanks.
Can I use the LLC as a migration chip?
You just need to apply for roles with public companies that offer liquid equity. Very few of us are getting 250k+ on base salary alone. Most of us have the salary bands you’re already in, but have additional equity pay on top. It doesn’t have to be a FAANG either. There are loads of public companies out there hiring engineers at 250k total comp.
This is true in the Midwest.
I’m seeing two strategies that are friends are using to get to $250k+ right now and much more…
1. Several have left for left/right coast former startups companies that are publicly traded. Their base comp is $160-180k but they are also receiving a large pool of equity that vests in tranches of $75-100k a year.
2. With everything being remote, several senior engineer friends are working two jobs at the same time. Some are telling their employers and others are not.
Companies are desperate for senior engineers and many are unable to compete with the “we’re remote, have free beer and no vacation policy.”
I’m seeing two strategies that are friends are using to get to $250k+ right now and much more…
1. Several have left for left/right coast former startups companies that are publicly traded. Their base comp is $160-180k but they are also receiving a large pool of equity that vests in tranches of $75-100k a year.
2. With everything being remote, several senior engineer friends are working two jobs at the same time. Some are telling their employers and others are not.
Companies are desperate for senior engineers and many are unable to compete with the “we’re remote, have free beer and no vacation policy.”
How do you justify on a resume that you had two jobs at once?
Why in God’s name would you list them both? It’s a resume not a deposition. Your resume should make it easier for you to get your next job not harder.
Be accurate when it comes to the truth but not necessarily the facts.
Be accurate when it comes to the truth but not necessarily the facts.
> Why in God’s name would you list them both? It’s a resume not a deposition.
In the US resume fraud is a thing. Some companies like telecoms selectively check resumes for accuracy. Resume fraud can be a fireable offense.
In the US resume fraud is a thing. Some companies like telecoms selectively check resumes for accuracy. Resume fraud can be a fireable offense.
That's for lying, and I've never heard of anyone going to court over it.
Omitting isn't the same. If you ask for references, I probably won't list people who will give me a bad reference, either.
Omitting isn't the same. If you ask for references, I probably won't list people who will give me a bad reference, either.
> That's for lying, and I've never heard of anyone going to court over it.
In the US employment is at will and can be terminated for cause or no cause at all, no need to go to court. Omitting important facts about employment history can be in violation of company policies. Some telecoms ask you to explicitly submit information for "employment history verification" as a condition of employment.
In the US employment is at will and can be terminated for cause or no cause at all, no need to go to court. Omitting important facts about employment history can be in violation of company policies. Some telecoms ask you to explicitly submit information for "employment history verification" as a condition of employment.
I'm well aware. Meeting requirements to be fired is a far stretch from meeting requirements to have legal sanctions.
Comparing Jobs and references is not apples to apples,. One is understood to be a list of employers you've had in recent years,. The other is understood to be one to three people that would recommend your skills not every single person you've worked with the last 10 years..
You can easily lie by omission.. The root of it is deceitful intentions.
You can easily lie by omission.. The root of it is deceitful intentions.
Is there a law mandating that all employment be listed? Omitting a high school fast food gig is accepted, why is omitting moonlighting not? It's not lying about education or employment, so I don't see how it is fraud.
Unfortunately, there is no clear cut rules about what constitutes resume fraud. Making up employment records is clearly a resume fraud. Omitting employment could be construed as fraud depending on the context. Omitting ice-cream parlor gig while in high school is probably OK. Working for Google and Facebook at the same time and omitting one might be not.
Who is deciding all of this? Sounds like conjecture.
"Employment relationships are presumed to be “at-will” in all U.S. states except Montana. The U.S. is one of a handful of countries where employment is predominantly at-will."
https://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/at-will-e...
Anything (or nothing) in the US can be a fireable offense, so I wouldn't worry too much about what you put on a resume.
https://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/at-will-e...
Anything (or nothing) in the US can be a fireable offense, so I wouldn't worry too much about what you put on a resume.
If you lie about having a job this can be found out (they can call the place)
If you omit one or several jobs, I don't know how they would know (call all places to see if you also worked there?).
> I don't know how they would know (call all places to see if you also worked there?).
It can be tracked during your background check (using SSN). They will make you sign a form that you authorize them to perform such a check. Fail to sign the form - job offer is rescinded. Again, depends on employer.
It can be tracked during your background check (using SSN). They will make you sign a form that you authorize them to perform such a check. Fail to sign the form - job offer is rescinded. Again, depends on employer.
> It can be tracked during your background check (using SSN). They will make you sign a form that you authorize them to perform such a check.
Can you show me a background check service that offers a list of previous employers found by SSN? I did not know that exists. Unless they're consulting the IRS, I don't know how it could exist.
Background checks as I understand them, tend to check things like: credit score, contacting references (that you provide), criminal records etc. Primarily publicly available information.
Can you show me a background check service that offers a list of previous employers found by SSN? I did not know that exists. Unless they're consulting the IRS, I don't know how it could exist.
Background checks as I understand them, tend to check things like: credit score, contacting references (that you provide), criminal records etc. Primarily publicly available information.
Had one done, received the packet and they had everything going back to my internships. I think many large employers voluntarily report the info to an employment verification service for mutual benefit.
https://theworknumber.com/
You can check your own for free. Employers buy in bulk. Mine is completely accurate and includes full and accurate W2 info, i.e., salary and bonus (not stock grant) history to the dollar. Lying on a resume is generally a bad idea.
You can check your own for free. Employers buy in bulk. Mine is completely accurate and includes full and accurate W2 info, i.e., salary and bonus (not stock grant) history to the dollar. Lying on a resume is generally a bad idea.
But isn't employment in the US largely at-will? Meaning that the employer can fire the employee for any reason except for protected classes discrimination?
So it doesn't matter if it's fraud or the employer just doesn't like the employee. The implications are the same.
So it doesn't matter if it's fraud or the employer just doesn't like the employee. The implications are the same.
> except for protected classes discrimination?
They get to do that too, but it means they can get taken to court because of it.
They get to do that too, but it means they can get taken to court because of it.
(Essentially) everything’s a fireable offense in the US. And if you don’t get caught, there’s no risk.
If someone’s the kind of person to work 2-full-time jobs simultaneously then I think they’re the kind of person who’s OK hiding some of the facts on their resume.
If someone’s the kind of person to work 2-full-time jobs simultaneously then I think they’re the kind of person who’s OK hiding some of the facts on their resume.
Aren’t prospective employers also able to check the credit agencies for salary information of applicants? I’d assume both jobs would show?
Income information on your credit report is self-reported. You will notice that your credit card company asks periodically if your income has changed. That’s where it comes from. It is also non specific, an estimate of total income from all sources not just wages on one job. Perhaps you are independently wealthy with multiple income streams. No one will no the difference.
The work number (by equifax, a credit reporting agency) may report it though assuming your employer participate and gives them your pay and employment info.
https://theworknumber.com/
https://theworknumber.com/
[deleted]
Just list the better one.
Thousands, if not millions, of people have multiple jobs at the same time. Granted most of those are not 6-figure white-collar office workers. But even in that world many consultants effectively are working multiple jobs simultaneously. Personally I am very happy having one employer at a time, but I don't understand why it should be an aberration to have more than one.
Wait two fulltime 250k+ jobs?
I think that’s a remarkable exception rather than a common occurrence.
I would gather they are referring to two jobs that in total sum to above 250k a year.
Yeah, they’re making 140-160k at both jobs which are with startups that have raised a few rounds.
Agree! At least in the US, this kind of total comp is possible at my employer (Datadog) and many other public companies, not just FAANG mega-corps. Typically you’d have to be “senior” or “staff” engineer, or get lucky and join during a period of stock growth. The pandemic really changed things to make remote work more viable. Previously many companies limited it to exceptional cases (long tenure in-person followed by the move to remote).
How realistic is it to get hired fully remote at this kind of comp if you don't live in the US? I'm British and live in the UK and I'm pretty sure I have enough experience to be making these kinds of high salaries if I lived in the US. Relocating isn't an option for me, at least not in the next few years, but I wonder, am I a fool for taking a UK-based job? Should I find a remote position with a US-based company and double my salary? Is that even possible?
I'm UK based. Just took a fully remote job at Couchbase. Left the BBC, which is attempting to reintroduce office based working, same role/title, 66% salary increase. Very possible, could even say easy.
Quite realistic. Working for a small team, we are desperate to hire. I think the trick would be to look for a smaller employer in one if the US tech hub cities and then if they can work with you on the time difference, you should v ed pretty good.
My current company has interviewed 3 ppl in 6 months, lack of candidates. Someone good, but in the wrong timezone would be a compelling hire.
My current company has interviewed 3 ppl in 6 months, lack of candidates. Someone good, but in the wrong timezone would be a compelling hire.
Where are you posting jobs? I am focused on small teams when I'm looking but most of the jobs I come up with are already over a hundred people.
You have to go the employer website or get lucky finding the listing on 'indeed' or something like that. Otherwise, you need to be contacted by the recruiter the company is working with, and the recruiter is unlikely to go beyond LinkedIn and other local talent. That is probably where the disconnect is.
Can you share the URL of the job ad?
With regret I cannot.
1. The position was actually recently filled. We likely will have another opening soon but the posting is not yet up (perhaps will be in a month or two).
2. It would be personally identifiable
Trying to even find examples of such job postings... I think there is a market fit for a new job search website, it should be far, far easier to find these kinds of jobs postings. I'm not sure how a person can find these things without a recruiter contacting them.
1. The position was actually recently filled. We likely will have another opening soon but the posting is not yet up (perhaps will be in a month or two).
2. It would be personally identifiable
Trying to even find examples of such job postings... I think there is a market fit for a new job search website, it should be far, far easier to find these kinds of jobs postings. I'm not sure how a person can find these things without a recruiter contacting them.
I created a burner email address:
[email protected]
Feel free to email me, I would be happy to refer someone. The pay would be somewhere in the $140-$170k range. It is a good company, tiny team working in biotech and oncology. Feel free to email me and I can share details.
[email protected]
Feel free to email me, I would be happy to refer someone. The pay would be somewhere in the $140-$170k range. It is a good company, tiny team working in biotech and oncology. Feel free to email me and I can share details.
I have the exact same question, I'm applying to US based companies right now but I wonder is this even possible ?
Yup, I’m at DDOG too and around $200K total comp as engineer 1. I wouldn’t be surprised if a bunch of SE2s are at $250k or more.
$150 per hour is $300,000 per year including two weeks vacation per year.
I have a side client that I met 11 years ago that I charge $150 per hour for remote development. They feel lucky to get that rate! Most people around us charge $200 per hour but since I work full time for someone else and can’t always be available I give them that discounted rate.
I don’t think they’re hard to find at all for consulting. Being a full time employee for $250k, I agree with you that those are more rare. In my experience you have to possess an in-demand specialty for that or get into management.
I have a side client that I met 11 years ago that I charge $150 per hour for remote development. They feel lucky to get that rate! Most people around us charge $200 per hour but since I work full time for someone else and can’t always be available I give them that discounted rate.
I don’t think they’re hard to find at all for consulting. Being a full time employee for $250k, I agree with you that those are more rare. In my experience you have to possess an in-demand specialty for that or get into management.
2 weeks vacation per year is pitiful. Do people really get on and are happy with only that? I get 5 weeks ( minimum legal in France), i use it to the max and it's okay, but sometimes insufficient.
2 weeks (as in 10 non-holiday days) is pretty normal in the US, even if you get more. I get 4 paid but I barely take two and bank the rest. My European parents think I'm crazy but they're used to a pretty nice safety net when you get old, and the concept of early financial independence never entered their mind.
There is a curious symmetry in that the idea that you only do certain things when you are young(er) or may not live (or be healthy enough) to harvest (or enjoy) the fruits of your early financial independence does not seem to enter the mind of many people chasing this.
In my thirties I worked in many different countries for many different companies. Going new places with different cultures and being able to enjoy my time there was always the main driver: i.e. experiences & work/life balance over salary.
I would never trade these experiences for early financial independence at maybe age 50. I think there is a best before date for some experiences in life.
Maybe now it is possible for a select minority to have both. But most of of my friends in their 30s who work 'normal' jobs and have this early financial independence aim it doesn't hold true.
I.e. they will simply not have made these experiences when they reach that goal. Few have ever managed to leave their country of birth for anything else but holidays.
Some personal examples:
Living & working in Japan and thereby traveling the country on weekends or going to a cool club in Tokyo. When you're 35 vs when you're 55. Would you even do the latter at that age? Would it be the same?
Living and working in India and thereby going for a weekend hiking trip in the western Ghats were you're sleeping in an abandoned train station in the middle of the jungle. When you're 35 vs 55. Would you even do the latter at that age? Would it be the same?
Living and working in Sydney, going to a party of friends on a yacht on Friday after work and on a diving excursion to the Great Barrier Reef on Saturday morning when you're 35 vs 55. Would you even do the latter? Would it be the same? I was still hung over when I put on the diving gear but it was ok. With almost 55? You would simply have to skip the diving trip.
None of the above are made up. The pandemic-related lockdown made me realize what rich tapestry of experiences my past life choices have afforded me.
I have four people in my circle of friends who are actively working on early retirement. They do 'compensate' a lot on the weekends and when they go on holidays but that is not the same as the above.
In my thirties I worked in many different countries for many different companies. Going new places with different cultures and being able to enjoy my time there was always the main driver: i.e. experiences & work/life balance over salary.
I would never trade these experiences for early financial independence at maybe age 50. I think there is a best before date for some experiences in life.
Maybe now it is possible for a select minority to have both. But most of of my friends in their 30s who work 'normal' jobs and have this early financial independence aim it doesn't hold true.
I.e. they will simply not have made these experiences when they reach that goal. Few have ever managed to leave their country of birth for anything else but holidays.
Some personal examples:
Living & working in Japan and thereby traveling the country on weekends or going to a cool club in Tokyo. When you're 35 vs when you're 55. Would you even do the latter at that age? Would it be the same?
Living and working in India and thereby going for a weekend hiking trip in the western Ghats were you're sleeping in an abandoned train station in the middle of the jungle. When you're 35 vs 55. Would you even do the latter at that age? Would it be the same?
Living and working in Sydney, going to a party of friends on a yacht on Friday after work and on a diving excursion to the Great Barrier Reef on Saturday morning when you're 35 vs 55. Would you even do the latter? Would it be the same? I was still hung over when I put on the diving gear but it was ok. With almost 55? You would simply have to skip the diving trip.
None of the above are made up. The pandemic-related lockdown made me realize what rich tapestry of experiences my past life choices have afforded me.
I have four people in my circle of friends who are actively working on early retirement. They do 'compensate' a lot on the weekends and when they go on holidays but that is not the same as the above.
[deleted]
2 weeks (as in 10 non-holiday days) is pretty normal in the US, even if you get more.
But still pitiful and anti-health, on first principles. "Normal" though it may be in a workaholic and ideology-driven country like the U.S.
If it's a trade-off you choose to accept in exchange for early retirement, though, that's another matter.
But still pitiful and anti-health, on first principles. "Normal" though it may be in a workaholic and ideology-driven country like the U.S.
If it's a trade-off you choose to accept in exchange for early retirement, though, that's another matter.
I don't disagree, and yes I am choosing to optimize for early retirement. Another reason that may not be obvious to non-US people is that PTO in many cases is cash money, especially if you can accrue and roll it over. If you used before you hit the cap you're leaving money on the table. Twice when I quit my job I got an extra month of salary.
10 total days off would be below normal. Usually, vacation time is quoted as an addition on top of normal holidays like Christmas and Thanksgiving and other days.
Average professional job has about 8-9 paid holiday days, plus vacation time on top. My worst number of vacation days was 10 at my first job right out of college (they had to change after they struggled to attract employees) but every other job has been more than that.
But only accounting for 10 unpaid days per year would barely cover minimum federal holidays, so it’s not realistic. It’s equivalent to saying you’re never going to take time off unless the company is shut down for a federal holiday.
Average professional job has about 8-9 paid holiday days, plus vacation time on top. My worst number of vacation days was 10 at my first job right out of college (they had to change after they struggled to attract employees) but every other job has been more than that.
But only accounting for 10 unpaid days per year would barely cover minimum federal holidays, so it’s not realistic. It’s equivalent to saying you’re never going to take time off unless the company is shut down for a federal holiday.
I'm quite sure the five weeks he mentioned don't include official holidays. In the Netherlands it's also five weeks on top of a number of official holidays, and we gave the lowest number of those in the EU (7 iirc, some of which may be weekend Sat's in some years, like Christmas now).
Of course good companies typically don't offer only the minimum.
Of course good companies typically don't offer only the minimum.
In France you get 5-8 weeks of vacation that are counted in addition to the official days off.
In general you work 272 days a year and the rest is vacation and days off (this is also the reason we get a different amount of days off every year).
I have about 40 working days off, of which the company can choose the dates of 10.
In general you work 272 days a year and the rest is vacation and days off (this is also the reason we get a different amount of days off every year).
I have about 40 working days off, of which the company can choose the dates of 10.
272 days is very high. Full time work in the US with 0 vacation (typically is 10-20 days) and 0 company holidays (typically is 5-15 days) is 250 days. Perhaps you mistyped?
Oh yes, sorry - I meant 227 (too late to edit)
Don't they have a 4 day work week in France?
No we don't. We have a concept of "35 hours of work per week" but it gest complicated once your time is not metered per the hour.
People whose work is counted in days get special "extra vacation days to catch up" (this is more or less the real name), around 15 per year I think.
People whose work is counted in days get special "extra vacation days to catch up" (this is more or less the real name), around 15 per year I think.
Some places are starting to introduce it, but it's very rare. However the standard work day is 7 hours.
It's 218 working days in some union contracts (convention collective) usually, and 216 in Alsace.
A lot of people are quite happy working, quite happy with their local environment, and feel no need to take a vacation. For other uses of (paid or unpaid) days off (being sick, funerals, important kid events, 'just not feeling it today', maternal leave, paternal leave, whatever) policies vary so much from company to company and individual to individual; I think this variability is a good thing and gives an additional dimension for companies to compete for workers on.
> A lot of people are quite happy working, quite happy with their local environment, and feel no need to take a vacation
I love my current job, the people, the work, the challenges. I still need an occasional break, and I still like seeing different things.
I love my current job, the people, the work, the challenges. I still need an occasional break, and I still like seeing different things.
2 weeks makes the arithmetic easy (as you work 50 weeks in a year and 50 is an easier number) but I think it’s not really relevant: you can just plug in a different number of weeks or hourly rate and get your own answer.
If you are doing by-the-hour contract work you can generally set your own terms for which hours you work and how many.
Hourly is unprofessional and a conflict of interest with your client.
The worst deal I would sign is a day rate (no logging hours) but fixed scope/duration is far better.
The worst deal I would sign is a day rate (no logging hours) but fixed scope/duration is far better.
As a blanket statement, I think that's ridiculous.
Hourly is a good choice for contracts where they are looking to buy labor. Which is a common model, because they often see contract labor as a substitute for employee labor.
The other models you mention can be much better, but also require the contractor to have both particular skills and enough relationship power to make them work. I have seen well-meaning developers absolutely get screwed on fixed scope contracts. And I've also seen less-well-meaning developers absolutely screw their clients on fixed price contracts. This is an area where blanket statements are harmful.
Hourly is a good choice for contracts where they are looking to buy labor. Which is a common model, because they often see contract labor as a substitute for employee labor.
The other models you mention can be much better, but also require the contractor to have both particular skills and enough relationship power to make them work. I have seen well-meaning developers absolutely get screwed on fixed scope contracts. And I've also seen less-well-meaning developers absolutely screw their clients on fixed price contracts. This is an area where blanket statements are harmful.
You can’t do hourly in London, the lowest you can go is a day rate, hours being 1:1 with fees is a great way to leave money on the table as a contractor. As a contractor you want to structure your deliverables on your terms so you can choose how the spend your time. Alan Weiss wrote a lot about this and his writings changed my life. Also, if you’re hourly in London you can’t claim to be independent and you’ll get smashed on tax as HMRC will treat you as a perm employee because your client controls your hours and activities.
How do clients get screwed with fixed fee? Clients should pay for value, not hours sat in a chair.
How do clients get screwed with fixed fee? Clients should pay for value, not hours sat in a chair.
There are plenty of ways to screw clients with fixed-fee projects. The most common is to ask the client what they want, write that down, and build it for a fat fee based on the value they imagine they'll be getting. It turns out clients mostly don't know shit about what they actually need. Indeed, for many projects it's impossible to know the right thing to build up front, as much of the data is unavailable until you start shipping things. So what they sign up for and what will actually help them can diverge wildly.
Now that you have shipped the technically correct but not very useful thing, you collect the fee and then start accepting "change orders" at a punitive rate. At this point switching to another contractor will be even more risky and expensive, so they'll probably just suck it up. Or if you're really good at the game, you then negotiate a whole new fixed-fee contract with a higher price tag, and the deliver what they now think they want.
Bonus points if, as I've seen a big-name global contractor do, you deliver something not even barely working but possibly conforming to specs, and then just walk off the job. Even though the client has contractual obligations that they can't fulfill if the software doesn't work. At that point, the client realizes that a) they still need the software, b) the big-name contractor is the only who can deliver in time, and c) suing is risky, will take years, and anyway the big-name contractor can afford more lawyers. In this case the client signed another multi-million dollar contract with the big-name contractor, easily doubling the "fixed" fee. I lost touch with my contacts there before the thing ever worked, so I don't know how many times the big-name global contractor pulled this off on the same job.
Now that you have shipped the technically correct but not very useful thing, you collect the fee and then start accepting "change orders" at a punitive rate. At this point switching to another contractor will be even more risky and expensive, so they'll probably just suck it up. Or if you're really good at the game, you then negotiate a whole new fixed-fee contract with a higher price tag, and the deliver what they now think they want.
Bonus points if, as I've seen a big-name global contractor do, you deliver something not even barely working but possibly conforming to specs, and then just walk off the job. Even though the client has contractual obligations that they can't fulfill if the software doesn't work. At that point, the client realizes that a) they still need the software, b) the big-name contractor is the only who can deliver in time, and c) suing is risky, will take years, and anyway the big-name contractor can afford more lawyers. In this case the client signed another multi-million dollar contract with the big-name contractor, easily doubling the "fixed" fee. I lost touch with my contacts there before the thing ever worked, so I don't know how many times the big-name global contractor pulled this off on the same job.
And the clients aren’t to blame? Some will force waterfall on you then change their minds on requirements, am I a charity that just gives work away for free when they change their mind?
Many large companies absolutely refuse agile delivery and require fixed scope and cost to get anything done.
Many large companies absolutely refuse agile delivery and require fixed scope and cost to get anything done.
How quickly we go from, "Clients should pay for value" to "fuck the clients, they deserve to get cheated".
Yes, waterfall is a bad choice. But no, clients aren't to blame for trusting a vendor to do right by them.
Yes, waterfall is a bad choice. But no, clients aren't to blame for trusting a vendor to do right by them.
> "fuck the clients, they deserve to get cheated".
Why use quotation marks for something I didn't say? Nothing I've said means "fuck the clients" unless you are maliciously taking the worst possible interpretation.
A change that takes a massive amount of time and effort isn't something I should do for free.
I'm more than happy to build a backlog, refine it, and build until there's a RC... so few enterprise clients want to subscribe to the perceived risk, they'd rather spend months specifying everything upfront to make some senior person happy whether that delivery methodology has been proven to work or not.
Why use quotation marks for something I didn't say? Nothing I've said means "fuck the clients" unless you are maliciously taking the worst possible interpretation.
A change that takes a massive amount of time and effort isn't something I should do for free.
I'm more than happy to build a backlog, refine it, and build until there's a RC... so few enterprise clients want to subscribe to the perceived risk, they'd rather spend months specifying everything upfront to make some senior person happy whether that delivery methodology has been proven to work or not.
Yes, I was paraphrasing. We both know you didn't say those exact words, so I thought you'd figure it out. Hopefully now you can.
> Clients should pay for value, not hours sat in a chair.
I think the implication is that if one party is capturing the excess value produced disproportionately, that is screwing the other side. Particularly if this occurs because of information that is asymmetric in negotiation.
I think the implication is that if one party is capturing the excess value produced disproportionately, that is screwing the other side. Particularly if this occurs because of information that is asymmetric in negotiation.
If that’s the case, getting screwed is pretty common.
If my SAP implementation is going to save over 1 million per year in increased manufacturing efficiency, how should I price my services? The floor is set by the cheapest contractors in my market, the ceiling is how ever high I can negotiate.
The client will capture far more value than me over the lifetime of the product. I also don’t want to charge by the hour because there’s a conflict of interest and I want to detach hours worked from fees charged otherwise I’m just slaving away.
Hourly is for blue collar work, it’s not professional at my and your level.
If my SAP implementation is going to save over 1 million per year in increased manufacturing efficiency, how should I price my services? The floor is set by the cheapest contractors in my market, the ceiling is how ever high I can negotiate.
The client will capture far more value than me over the lifetime of the product. I also don’t want to charge by the hour because there’s a conflict of interest and I want to detach hours worked from fees charged otherwise I’m just slaving away.
Hourly is for blue collar work, it’s not professional at my and your level.
It really depends. In general I prefer charging by the task but that assumes a well-scoped and predictable task. That works for some things and not for others.
Of course, there are a number of professions (law, accounting, etc.) where hourly charges are absolutely the norm. I've done some legal work and it was in some ways very nice to get paid whenever you were "on the clock."
Of course, there are a number of professions (law, accounting, etc.) where hourly charges are absolutely the norm. I've done some legal work and it was in some ways very nice to get paid whenever you were "on the clock."
I agree with Alan Weiss, lawyers are unprofessional and mostly terrible at maximising income. They charge 1:1 hours to fees which is a bad deal for a professional.
The legal work I did was for an expert witness case as a subject matter expert (not a lawyer). There is no way we could have/would have agreed to a fixed fee up front unless it was for a really outrageous amount. (Well, it ended up being a pretty outrageous amount anyway but there's no way we could have reasonably scoped the work.)
Most of the work we did in general was for specifically scoped deliverables and we actually tried very hard not to do day rates, much less hourly rates, but this was one case it really wasn't avoidable--and, of course, was the way the white shoe law firm operated.
Most of the work we did in general was for specifically scoped deliverables and we actually tried very hard not to do day rates, much less hourly rates, but this was one case it really wasn't avoidable--and, of course, was the way the white shoe law firm operated.
Lawyers are mostly pretty bad at pricing, let’s not use them as a benchmark for our industry.
But yes, you did some law work and they want you to charge hourly rather than based on value.
But yes, you did some law work and they want you to charge hourly rather than based on value.
The point is that we would have had no way of pricing "value" up-front. It wasn't our primary business (which we mostly did price based on value). So charging $500/hour (or whatever it ended up being) made a lot more sense for everyone than just throwing a $100K invoice out there when we really didn't have any idea what sort of time commitment we were looking at.
I said 2 weeks vacation to make the math simple.
I actually get six weeks vacation at my full time US job and I use part of that to work in my part time consulting job.
I actually get six weeks vacation at my full time US job and I use part of that to work in my part time consulting job.
Yes... I will cash out any vacation my employer allows me to, unfortunately they require that I take most of it as time off not cash
Why? Money doesn't give you time back. I guess I understand if someone is banking money to retire early but personally I've always taken every day off I could.
American weeks are only 5 days long if you use employer accounting when evaluating an offer.
I have "3 weeks" but it's only 15 days.
I have "3 weeks" but it's only 15 days.
That’s what the person you’re replying to means as well, five weeks or 25 workdays. I think all or at least most of the EU have more than 15 days minimum mandatory paid leave.
Well, isn't that normal? When you sign a 6 month contract that doesn't mean that you'll have to work for 180+ days either.
Assuming you’re working 5 days a week, 15 days is 3 workweeks.
saberience(2)
$150 per hour consulting is not the same as $150/h salary. With consulting you have to pay for your downtime, the time you use to acquire clients, your insurance, etc.
If I was doing full time consulting I would charge $200 per hour.
I only give the discounted $150 per hour rate because I work full time at another company.
Since someone else brought up tax advantages - I don’t pay social security tax on my self employed income. Because I max it out on my full time job. I also have an Individual 401k plan that I can contribute 20% of my self employed income as the employer contribution. I can’t contribute my self employed income as the employee contribution though because I max that out at my full time job.
Having combination W2 and 1099 income gives a ton of tax benefits.
I only give the discounted $150 per hour rate because I work full time at another company.
Since someone else brought up tax advantages - I don’t pay social security tax on my self employed income. Because I max it out on my full time job. I also have an Individual 401k plan that I can contribute 20% of my self employed income as the employer contribution. I can’t contribute my self employed income as the employee contribution though because I max that out at my full time job.
Having combination W2 and 1099 income gives a ton of tax benefits.
It is especially not the same due to loss of tax advantaged benefits like health insurance ($20k+ per year if you have a family), 401k matching ($10k+), DCFSA and HSA matches ($5k), and then the 8% FICA taxes up to $10k that have to come out of your pocket.
What these comments ignore is that, if you form an LLC for your consulting work you have access to a massive number of deductions that do not exist for someone who is an employee. My recommendation is to have a conversation with a good accountant and have them quantify the potential differences for you.
That's all stuff you can calculate and price into your rate. It's not like you just take the salary number they offer and divide it by two to get your rate.
I was commenting on the comparison of a $150/hour independent contracting price to a $300k salary.
Sounds like he has a steady client that accommodates as many hours as he likes at that rate, and has done so for a dozen years.
I imagine he has covered his business development expense by now.
This is how I do it too, by the way. Long term relationships with good companies. It's more like contracting, but without the 40h expectations of a contractor. ( Unless I feel like working 40 hours in a given week for some reason).
I imagine he has covered his business development expense by now.
This is how I do it too, by the way. Long term relationships with good companies. It's more like contracting, but without the 40h expectations of a contractor. ( Unless I feel like working 40 hours in a given week for some reason).
> Sounds like he has a steady client that accommodates as many hours as he likes at that rate, and has done so for a dozen years.
It sounds like he’s basically been employed by this one company for 11 years, albeit on a contract basis.
These positions exist, but they’re not all that common. Usually if a company is paying a single person a premium for many years they’ll just hire a full-time person and be done. The average freelance contract you find should not be assumed to be a decade-long opportunity.
It sounds like he’s basically been employed by this one company for 11 years, albeit on a contract basis.
These positions exist, but they’re not all that common. Usually if a company is paying a single person a premium for many years they’ll just hire a full-time person and be done. The average freelance contract you find should not be assumed to be a decade-long opportunity.
> I have a side client that I met 11 years ago that I charge $150 per hour for remote development.
That's not too surprising, and depending on what you are doing might be a great deal for everyone. Usually contracting work out is done at 1.7-2x the rate you'd pay an employee. This is because the the consultant has costs and risk that an employee does not. Costs like insurance, accounting, legal, personal benefits (i.e. savings to allow for vacations, healthcare), sales overhead (consultants have to keep finding new clients). Risks like contract cancellation and getting paid on time.
That's not too surprising, and depending on what you are doing might be a great deal for everyone. Usually contracting work out is done at 1.7-2x the rate you'd pay an employee. This is because the the consultant has costs and risk that an employee does not. Costs like insurance, accounting, legal, personal benefits (i.e. savings to allow for vacations, healthcare), sales overhead (consultants have to keep finding new clients). Risks like contract cancellation and getting paid on time.
> I don’t think they’re hard to find at all for consulting.
You said you found your $150/hr 11 years ago. How many other $150/hr clients have you met since then? What makes you say that it’s easy to find them?
I think it’s easy to say that consulting is easy when you’ve had a single, long-term client that pays well. In practice, it’s much harder to find these clients when starting from 0, unless you have such luck to find the dream client right out of the gate.
You said you found your $150/hr 11 years ago. How many other $150/hr clients have you met since then? What makes you say that it’s easy to find them?
I think it’s easy to say that consulting is easy when you’ve had a single, long-term client that pays well. In practice, it’s much harder to find these clients when starting from 0, unless you have such luck to find the dream client right out of the gate.
I was self employed for five years many years ago.
It’s easy to find clients - one of the best ways I did it was to go to computer stores and tell the salespeople if they got me a new client I would pay them $15 per hour in perpetuity for every hour I charged the client. I had 3 people that made more from me than their regular job.
Then there are chambers of commerce, LinkedIn messages and frankly just putting yourself out there. I met my long term side client studying for a certification while my oldest son was at a baseball clinic. My client saw the book I was reading and walked up to me and said, “Are you in IT?”
It’s easy to find clients - one of the best ways I did it was to go to computer stores and tell the salespeople if they got me a new client I would pay them $15 per hour in perpetuity for every hour I charged the client. I had 3 people that made more from me than their regular job.
Then there are chambers of commerce, LinkedIn messages and frankly just putting yourself out there. I met my long term side client studying for a certification while my oldest son was at a baseball clinic. My client saw the book I was reading and walked up to me and said, “Are you in IT?”
$150 / hr as a 1099 Contractor, is more like $75/hr has a W2 employee after you factor in employee benefits (normally 30-40% of your total comp) and taxation (10-15% more for self employment depending on your deductions)
If you’re doing it as part time to your full time job, it’s a bit more. The taxes are a little higher, but you’re already getting benefits from your full-time gig
True and if your goal is to only ever work part time as a 1099 (i.e over employed) then it would be fine to look at it like that
However if your goal is to work to replace your employment you should start out looking at the full picture, and pricing your work accordingly.
However if your goal is to work to replace your employment you should start out looking at the full picture, and pricing your work accordingly.
Sadly, going for equity in these scenarios is a mine field and almost never as profitable as advertised by the employer.
I could not disagree more. Public companies will give you $X amount in stock. In writing. With specific vesting periods, etc. Obviously if the stock goes up or down so does your pay. But there’s no real way for companies to game this against you.
Nearly Every highly paid SWE in the US takes a significant amount of their pay in equity. As an anecdote - I take around 70% of my pay as equity and so does everyone I work with.
Nearly Every highly paid SWE in the US takes a significant amount of their pay in equity. As an anecdote - I take around 70% of my pay as equity and so does everyone I work with.
Public companies will sometimes tell you $X amount of stock and not tell you the number of shares, which is what actually matters. For the purposes of the offer, the dont generally use today’s market price as their price per share. In those cases, you can actually end up with less than is offered.
And in pre-IPO companies that’s the norm, but that’s beside the point.
And in pre-IPO companies that’s the norm, but that’s beside the point.
They will always tell you $X in stock, how else would they value it? But there will be a set date on which that $ amount converts to a number of shares, which then vest over time according to a schedule.
I have never seen an offer from a public company that has a # of shares attached to it. Only a dollar amount. Then it converts based on market value at conversion time.
I have never seen an offer from a public company that has a # of shares attached to it. Only a dollar amount. Then it converts based on market value at conversion time.
Work at a FAANG - received a specified number of unvested shares with my offer, and a fixed vesting schedule.
Every grant I received had exactly how the number of shares would be calculated. Typically a trailing 10 day average as of the closing on a specific date.
Same, but I have friends who have gotten royally screwed on this :(
And friends who have gotten lucky when a dip happens right around conversion time.
Don’t know why this is being downvoted, this happened to me. Company IPOd and didn’t really know what to value their stock at yet because it was so volatile so they offered me $x with the exact number to be deterred after a few months
Getting $100k sticker price worth of stocks per year is worth about $100k a year. If stocks go up they are worth more, otherwise less. On average they will be worth more than cash, and for a big company it is rare for them to go down a lot, so I'd say that getting the $100k worth of stocks a year is at least as good as just getting the cash.
Edit: Not sure why people think otherwise. Maybe they are used to companies where you have to pay money to get those stocks? Big companies gives them to you for free, there is no exercise cost.
Edit: Not sure why people think otherwise. Maybe they are used to companies where you have to pay money to get those stocks? Big companies gives them to you for free, there is no exercise cost.
> at least as good as getting cash
This claim is patently false. If you receive $100k in cash, you can immediately exchange that to $100k in public company stock. The opposite is not true (if you receive stock with a vesting period, you cannot immediately exchange it to cash). Therefore, getting cash is at least as good as getting public company stock, not the other way around.
This claim is patently false. If you receive $100k in cash, you can immediately exchange that to $100k in public company stock. The opposite is not true (if you receive stock with a vesting period, you cannot immediately exchange it to cash). Therefore, getting cash is at least as good as getting public company stock, not the other way around.
You're missing the most important benefit: pre-vesting appreciation.
Say you are granted $600k that vests over 4 years. Well lucky you, the stock has 1.5x after year 1, doubled at year 2 and tripled by year 3! That means you've cumulatively vested $225k at year 1, $525k at year 2, and $975k at year 3. If you had cash only compensation, you would have received a total of $450k for that same time period.
Say you are granted $600k that vests over 4 years. Well lucky you, the stock has 1.5x after year 1, doubled at year 2 and tripled by year 3! That means you've cumulatively vested $225k at year 1, $525k at year 2, and $975k at year 3. If you had cash only compensation, you would have received a total of $450k for that same time period.
I feel like this is the most illuminating comment in this thread, so, thank you.
That said, if I can choose between receiving $600k in cash today, and receiving $600k worth of public company stock today with restrictions on when I can sell it, then I will choose the cash, because it is worth AT LEAST AS MUCH as the public company stock (because, again, cash is freely exchangeable to public company stock without restrictions, and the opposite does not hold true in this hypothetical).
That said, if I can choose between receiving $600k in cash today, and receiving $600k worth of public company stock today with restrictions on when I can sell it, then I will choose the cash, because it is worth AT LEAST AS MUCH as the public company stock (because, again, cash is freely exchangeable to public company stock without restrictions, and the opposite does not hold true in this hypothetical).
If you feel that there's a good chance that the stock of the company you're working for is going to tank, take that as a sign that you should work somewhere else ;)
> If you feel that there's a good chance that the stock of the company you're working for is going to tank, take that as a sign that you should work somewhere else ;)
If you get $600k in cash, and you immediately exchange that into $600k in company stock (with no restrictions on when you can sell that stock), how could that possibly be a worse deal than getting $600k in company stock with restrictions on when you can sell?
If you get $600k in cash, and you immediately exchange that into $600k in company stock (with no restrictions on when you can sell that stock), how could that possibly be a worse deal than getting $600k in company stock with restrictions on when you can sell?
Seems like a strawman, as no company is giving you the cash as a lump sum payment like that up front. Even if you get the option, which mostly you don't, it's between:
1. A grant at $Xk, converted to shares on start date and vesting proportionally over 4 years
or...
2. A salary bump equivalent to the grant in (1), paid out ~bi-weekly at (1/104)*$Xk. 104 being the amount of bi-weekly pay periods to occur over a 4 year span.
1. A grant at $Xk, converted to shares on start date and vesting proportionally over 4 years
or...
2. A salary bump equivalent to the grant in (1), paid out ~bi-weekly at (1/104)*$Xk. 104 being the amount of bi-weekly pay periods to occur over a 4 year span.
It's not a strawman, it's a direct response to grandparent comment in this thread, who said:
> getting the $100k worth of stocks a year is at least as good as just getting the cash
I am arguing that getting $100k worth of cash is always at least as good as getting $100k worth of stocks. You're saying that it's not realistic to have the option to get cash instead of stocks, and that's true but it's besides the point.
> getting the $100k worth of stocks a year is at least as good as just getting the cash
I am arguing that getting $100k worth of cash is always at least as good as getting $100k worth of stocks. You're saying that it's not realistic to have the option to get cash instead of stocks, and that's true but it's besides the point.
As soon as your RSU vests, you can sell it for cash. Most companies offer an auto-sell option that works even during restricted windows. With a good vesting schedule, it's almost identical.
Sure, almost identical, but in the direction where cash is always AT LEAST AS GOOD as stock. Not in the other direction.
You're completely wrong because of your neglect to consider pre-vesting appreciation. Please see my previous comment for an example. Why do you think some people get rich joining pre-IPO companies? Because they're granted a lot of shares at a low price point, and by the time they are vested and liquid the shares have a possibility of being worth magnitudes more than when they were granted.
It’s not at least as good as stock, it’s worse in most markets. Because your stock is appreciating before you’re allowed to sell it but the cash is depreciating to inflation.
If you receive $100k worth of stock, you receive $100k worth of stock. If you receive X amount of stock that vests in 1 year, and at that time point it happens to be worth $150k, then you didn't receive $100k worth of stock, you received $150k worth of stock. The question wasn't about comparing $150k worth of stock to $100k cash, the question was about comparing $100k worth of stock to $100k cash.
Every company I know of with the exception of Stripe and Coinbase have 4 year equity grants. In the real world you'd receive a 400k a grant that vests over 4 years. For most white collar workers who don't need the money to pay bills the 400k grant is worth more than an extra 100k a year in salary.
It's a free call option on the stock. If it goes up you keep vesting at the new stock price which might be way above market rate for you position and if it goes down you get refreshers at the end of the year to bring you back to a market rate salary.
It's a free call option on the stock. If it goes up you keep vesting at the new stock price which might be way above market rate for you position and if it goes down you get refreshers at the end of the year to bring you back to a market rate salary.
If it's about timeframes it can be thought of as like a year end bonus being paid out when it vests. With some risks in terms of share price (which is like variable cash bonuses). The only reason most prefer cash is because it's a hard number that base increases/bonus are computed by and for negotiation in next job.
Please explain to me how you can't achieve your desired stock exposure by receiving cash and then buying stock on the public market with that cash?
Kind of irrelevant because you will likely never receive a cash comp package equivalent to your salary + RSU amount. If it were that simple, virtually everyone would take the cash.
This entire thread is discussing the hypothetical where you could exchange your stock comp to cash. People upthread were claiming that the stock is more valuable, even though cash is exchangeable to stock without limitations, and the opposite is not true. You yourself said "virtually everyone would take the cash", so I take it that you agree with me.
I think you misunderstood, it's not that stock is more valuable, it's that you should opt to cash+stock because the total value of this will be higher than a pure cash offer. Essentially, cash and public stock is the same to an emplloyee, but for companies, paying in stock is better for them.
Let's say you know you will get a bonus that pays out end next year worth 10k. You can chose to receive 10k cash or 10k of google shares at today's prices. Most would trade the risk for potential upside.
Let's say you know you will get a bonus that pays out end next year worth 10k. You can chose to receive 10k cash or 10k of google shares at today's prices. Most would trade the risk for potential upside.
At least at Google, you get vested shares every month, and you start receiving them in about the 3rd month.
You can also have your broker automatically sell.
It is pretty close to cash.
You can also have your broker automatically sell.
It is pretty close to cash.
> It is pretty close to cash.
Sure, but specifically in the direction where cash is always at least as good as stock, not in the other direction.
Sure, but specifically in the direction where cash is always at least as good as stock, not in the other direction.
You've stated this in something like 5 threads in this post, and you're wrong in every one of them. Please see my previous posts with examples.
Want to know how I know? Because I'm working at my 3rd company where my 6-figure stock grant is vesting at 7-figures due to appreciation.
Want to know how I know? Because I'm working at my 3rd company where my 6-figure stock grant is vesting at 7-figures due to appreciation.
When you get an offer of $100K cash + $100K in stock, that's before appreciation. So 3 years from now your equity is appreciated but your cash is not, so you get $225K in cash equivalent.
This is false. If you immediately exchanged your cash to stock (as I specified in the post that you are replying to) then 3 years from now your "cash" option is worth exactly the same as your "cash + stock" option.
No one is giving you 4 years of paychecks on day 1. But they do grant 4 years of equity that is appreciating while you’re waiting for it to vest. That’s the difference. Cash is worse.
This is wrong. It would be true if you received all the cash in a lump sum as soon as you're hired, and you used it to buy stock, but if your cash "vests" in the same way as equity typically does then you'd lose out on the opportunity for it to appreciate before vesting like shares can.
>Not sure why people think otherwise.
Because stock compensation can be vastly different experiences therefor not just as good as getting cash.
Because stock compensation can be vastly different experiences therefor not just as good as getting cash.
It’s weird to say this though. Because stock comp is purely additive in almost all cases. The amount it adds to your pay is variable, and in extreme circumstances can even be $0. But it’s not like you can really lose money because of equity based pay, under normal circumstances.
You could be compelled to accept a lower salary with the expectations of stock being worth lots of money then it actually (as is the usual case) ends up being less than salary would have.
I mean this scenario only happens at just about every startup if you read peoples experiences though I don't know if there are or if its possible to have a study done on this since the data is likely private.
I mean this scenario only happens at just about every startup if you read peoples experiences though I don't know if there are or if its possible to have a study done on this since the data is likely private.
3 years receiving vested stocks. If price stayed the same, it would be worth 200k. Today it is worth 80k. So no, thanks. Stocks are not worth unless you're FAANG
Incredibly untrue. I’m sorry that your particular company saw a 60% decrease in stock price over 3 years. But this is not the norm for any reasonably healthy company.
I think many people on HN may be too young to remember the early 2000s, when you’d kill someone for your stock price to be down only 60% over 3 years, but it absolutely happens to good companies too.
We can talk about normal expectations without having to explicitly state that black swan events can happen. If you took a stance of “I’m not going to take any pay in equity because I saw what happened in 2001” you would have left millions of dollars on the table over the last 20 years.
Stocks underperforming cash for three years is hardly a black swan event; it happens in about a fifth of 3-year periods.
I’m clearly talking about the early 00 market crash as the black swan. Some depreciation is expected to happen sometimes. Obviously.
Underperforming cash is very different than underperforming cash by 60%.
I think that once you start looking for hard evidence on software company stocks, you're in for a learning experience.
? I’ve been in this industry for…a while. I watched people around me packing up their cubicles in 2001. What is it that you think I am missing? Genuine question because I’m not sure how to interpret your comment at all. Tech stocks have had strong growth as a sector for about 2 decades. Even if they hadn’t, even if they had been flat for 20 years, companies are still paying out $100k+ a year in equity (in addition to base salary).
You aren't guaranteed your salary either though and in many of those cases in the 2000's workers were laid off. Being paid entirely in cash salary doesn't make you immune to market turbulence.
It happened 1 year in 20, after an incredible run up, and good companies recovered.
Fully concur. I recieved stock appreciation rights (SARs) as a bonus at one company for a few years. CEO drove company into the ground that effectively wiped out all of these SARs. I was bitter at the CEO for making stupid decisions, but not at the fact that my bonus was in the form of SARs. If I'd have stuck to my guns more, the company would have probably succeeded and the SARs could have had significant value.
Bottom line, with stock payment, you have a say in their ultimate value. Do good work, company value invreases, you enrich yourself.
Bottom line, with stock payment, you have a say in their ultimate value. Do good work, company value invreases, you enrich yourself.
In reality, most stocks decline. You know this from VCs hitting 10x semi-frequently and still losing money.
Statistically speaking, they're correct.
Statistically speaking, they're correct.
This is literally the opposite of reality. The private/VC market is not relevant here. We’re strictly talking about publicly traded companies.
No this is actually true. Most stocks do go down (or at least only match much less risky investments like short-term bonds), but the stock market goes up because some stocks go up a lot. This is why all investors diversify. For example, the Russel 3000 Index goes up ~10% a year because they remove bad stocks and replace them with ones that seem better. But, employment at a single company with stock-based compensation is a concentrated bet on that single stock during the employment timeframe.
Recently learned this from the excellent and very pithy Michael Batnick blog https://theirrelevantinvestor.com/2020/09/10/most-stocks-suc... who was citing https://wpcarey.asu.edu/department-finance/faculty-research/...
Recently learned this from the excellent and very pithy Michael Batnick blog https://theirrelevantinvestor.com/2020/09/10/most-stocks-suc... who was citing https://wpcarey.asu.edu/department-finance/faculty-research/...
I agree the stock market has positive skew but in your career you will have enough bets to smooth out the effects of betting on a single stock. Additionally, you're not really making the same bet as an equity investor because your bet has optionality. Your downside is capped at less than a year in loss earnings because if the stock goes down and the company cannot bring you back up to market rate you just switch companies. If the stock goes up, you enjoy 4 years of above market compensation before getting reset to market rate.
I've never been in the situation of a significantly down price over more than a year. Is it normal that the firm will give 'refreshers' to get back to the target comp in that case?
Classic survivorship bias
/shrug. The vast, VAST majority of public companies do not lose 60% of their value in 3 years. I guess that’s just me surviving though.
The stocks vest progressively. You don’t literally have to wait 3 years to cash out.
If you can’t afford a single but if variance then I guess RSUs won’t make you happy. But for everyone else they work just fine (unless your company goes down in flames, in which case you have bigger problems and are probably job searching anyway)
If you can’t afford a single but if variance then I guess RSUs won’t make you happy. But for everyone else they work just fine (unless your company goes down in flames, in which case you have bigger problems and are probably job searching anyway)
I don't think you realize how wrong you are. Many average, boring tech companies pay RSUs big style. Not FAANG big but they're worth crazy amounts.
If the stocks go down before they vest you can just leave for another company and reset your compensation to the normal level, it isn't like the contract says you have to stay.
If you keep the stocks after they vest then that is your fault for keeping them instead of selling them.
If you keep the stocks after they vest then that is your fault for keeping them instead of selling them.
You seem to be confusing RSUs typically issued by public companies as part of total compensation with options used by private companies, which often amount to nothing.
Like everyone else is saying, you want publicly traded equity - Amazon, Google, Shopify, etc that you can convert to cash, usually in the first year or three. Not the lottery tickets that startups hand out.
RSUs are almost the same as a regular paycheck, and in my experience the employer has a lot more flexibility to meet your demands when you're negotiating total comp. So yes, the stock could go down, but you're getting more when you start than you would in salary and if doesn't go down you pocket the upside.
The vesting schedule is where you need to be careful.
The vesting schedule is where you need to be careful.
The trick with equity isn't about making it big at IPO. That rarely happens for most. Go to an established company that does stock RSUs and if you prove your worth the the RSUs will follow. They can be worth a lot from established "boring" companies.
Can we make an example of those "boring" companies?
the only scheme i've seen in post ipo equity (rsu-s) is that you are given a cash amount that is converted to shares at current price, then the shares vest over time. If the shares go up you get more cash. Assuming an average company (ie tracking the total market) and an average return this is going to be better than cash.
Oh hey, I did this recently.
The pandemic seemed like it was winding down (remember those naive days of 5 months ago?) and I decided I don't want to go back to the office, ever. Got a kid on the way, and I decided that the time I spend commuting would be better spent with my child. And my employers was making lots of whining noises that sounded like "we're never going to make this easy on you".
First, pick the right companies to apply to. Are you applying to one that 'also offers fully remote positions', or one where everyone is remote? Are remote employees first class citizens? A simple way to measure this: how high in the leadership do you have to be before you must live in a particular city (or some set of cities) to do the job? If the CEO is working from home, you know this company takes remote pretty seriously.
Edit a bit later: The reason I mention 'do they take remote seriously' is that companies that don't take remote seriously are the ones who still think in terms of 'city = salary rate'. Remote companies don't care.
In terms of CVs, no need to make it much different, imho. Maybe call out that you worked well remotely during the pandemic, and any other 'my coworkers aren't in the same physical space as me' experience.
Don't reveal your current salary during the interview process. The only salary you need to share with them is another company's competing offer.
Good luck. The market is excellent for developers right now.
The pandemic seemed like it was winding down (remember those naive days of 5 months ago?) and I decided I don't want to go back to the office, ever. Got a kid on the way, and I decided that the time I spend commuting would be better spent with my child. And my employers was making lots of whining noises that sounded like "we're never going to make this easy on you".
First, pick the right companies to apply to. Are you applying to one that 'also offers fully remote positions', or one where everyone is remote? Are remote employees first class citizens? A simple way to measure this: how high in the leadership do you have to be before you must live in a particular city (or some set of cities) to do the job? If the CEO is working from home, you know this company takes remote pretty seriously.
Edit a bit later: The reason I mention 'do they take remote seriously' is that companies that don't take remote seriously are the ones who still think in terms of 'city = salary rate'. Remote companies don't care.
In terms of CVs, no need to make it much different, imho. Maybe call out that you worked well remotely during the pandemic, and any other 'my coworkers aren't in the same physical space as me' experience.
Don't reveal your current salary during the interview process. The only salary you need to share with them is another company's competing offer.
Good luck. The market is excellent for developers right now.
In what niche in what country is the company you got into?
I'm a pretty general Staff Developer at Shopify. No niche. I live in Canada.
So you negotiated around 250k US dollars for remote work at Shopify?
Could you share your cv please?
boatman at list dot ru
Could you share your cv please?
boatman at list dot ru
All work is remote work at Shopify. The entire company. The only physical locations are meetup spaces.
My CV: 9.5 years at Amazon. Was able to pass the interview and leave a good impression. I think the latter was more important than the former.
My CV: 9.5 years at Amazon. Was able to pass the interview and leave a good impression. I think the latter was more important than the former.
My main trick has been to specialize in things that all companies like a lot (AWS, js, python), jumping gigs, and leveraging Remote Contracting networks [1].
To get to ~200k remote salaries is hard, but not impossible if you make clear what kind of business leverage you bring and what responsibilities you can take.
In addition, you might not actually need such a high Remote salary if you choose to live in cheaper towns. You don't need a $200k salary if you can make your $120k feel like $1M by living in the countryside.
[1] "How I got wealthy without working too hard": https://amaca.substack.com/p/how-i-got-wealthy-without-worki...
To get to ~200k remote salaries is hard, but not impossible if you make clear what kind of business leverage you bring and what responsibilities you can take.
In addition, you might not actually need such a high Remote salary if you choose to live in cheaper towns. You don't need a $200k salary if you can make your $120k feel like $1M by living in the countryside.
[1] "How I got wealthy without working too hard": https://amaca.substack.com/p/how-i-got-wealthy-without-worki...
Interesting point, would you say it makes more sense to focus on adopted technologies rather then interesting ones in thier growth phase?
Concrete: I learned React a while ago but find Svelte interesting and think it has potential. I am no SWE but interested.
Concrete: I learned React a while ago but find Svelte interesting and think it has potential. I am no SWE but interested.
I'm in that $250k range. When I'm looking for a new gig I would much rather have skills that 100 companies are hiring for than skills that 5 companies are hiring for.
That said, I do need something to differentiate myself from any other rando they might hire for less. That could hypothetically be a niche technology. I once met someone who specialized in making databases of 3D artifacts. He made a ton of money bouncing form one defense contractor to another creating their object databases for simulation purposes. That's the "niche knowledge" path.
In my case, that's soft skills. I'm a great communicator with a history of using those skills to land big project successes. In particular, I don't make the business people feel dumb when I explain technical things to them, and being a small business owner myself I have a better balance of understanding between business needs and technical needs compared to most devs.
That said, I do need something to differentiate myself from any other rando they might hire for less. That could hypothetically be a niche technology. I once met someone who specialized in making databases of 3D artifacts. He made a ton of money bouncing form one defense contractor to another creating their object databases for simulation purposes. That's the "niche knowledge" path.
In my case, that's soft skills. I'm a great communicator with a history of using those skills to land big project successes. In particular, I don't make the business people feel dumb when I explain technical things to them, and being a small business owner myself I have a better balance of understanding between business needs and technical needs compared to most devs.
Not OP but I have a thought here:
For engineers early in their career, I'd say you probably want to focus on tech that is adopted but not generally viewed as heading towards obsolescence (React or Java are in this category, for example).
Mid to late career it can be smart to latch onto tech in its growth phase if you believe in it. For example if you were early on the Kubernetes train and managed to build those skills well you're worth a lot of money right now. Actually making that kind of judgment call probably isn't smart when you're junior because you're unlikely to have the kind of experience and instincts to consistently pick winners.
For engineers early in their career, I'd say you probably want to focus on tech that is adopted but not generally viewed as heading towards obsolescence (React or Java are in this category, for example).
Mid to late career it can be smart to latch onto tech in its growth phase if you believe in it. For example if you were early on the Kubernetes train and managed to build those skills well you're worth a lot of money right now. Actually making that kind of judgment call probably isn't smart when you're junior because you're unlikely to have the kind of experience and instincts to consistently pick winners.
Wow, I love the preamble there. So nice when successful people don't do the "I am a self-made man, I started out squeezing loose hydrogen and oxygen atoms to create my own water" routine.
You should think about it from the company's perspective: Why should they hire someone at twice the rate at which they can find very good people? As you say most remote companies pay either average or slightly above-average local market salaries as that's good enough for most developers to find these jobs attractive enough (since many prefer remote work) for the companies to fill up their hiring pipeline with lots of good candidates.
That said I think $250k is definitely possible for non entry-level positions if you bring strategically important knowledge into a company. If you e.g. work for a startup/scaleup/enterprise in given space go talk to other companies in the same space that want to break into the competitors market or pull off a similar business model. Then you can e.g. say "I helped company X to scale their backend infrastructure to support 100 MM customers and I'm looking for a position where I can apply that knowledge and help you do the same, while having more responsibility / ownership / decision power". That will make you more valuable to a company than saying "I'm a really good Golang programmer". It's all about selling you as an individual with very specific market knowledge that a company wants.
That said I think $250k is definitely possible for non entry-level positions if you bring strategically important knowledge into a company. If you e.g. work for a startup/scaleup/enterprise in given space go talk to other companies in the same space that want to break into the competitors market or pull off a similar business model. Then you can e.g. say "I helped company X to scale their backend infrastructure to support 100 MM customers and I'm looking for a position where I can apply that knowledge and help you do the same, while having more responsibility / ownership / decision power". That will make you more valuable to a company than saying "I'm a really good Golang programmer". It's all about selling you as an individual with very specific market knowledge that a company wants.
I'm close to 250k range, with bonuses in the range. And I'm from Eastern Europe.
But yeah, your second paragraph is key for enabling that. Or being very lucky.
If you're inside the US, just apply to any private unicorn or public tech company (the ones that get media coverage). Anecdotally, roughly 50% of them are now cool with full remote and virtually all will pay 250k or more in total comp.
If you're outside the US, forget about salaried roles. I've found that a vast majority of companies mentioned above will have blanket policies against hiring non-US workers (most HR departments are still living in the past and don't know services like Pilot, Deel, Remote.com, etc exist).
Also, there's virtually zero non-American companies that pay those kind of salaries--save for a few select places like Singapore, Zurich (and funny enough, its also the American companies in those cities that pay the highest).
Contracting for sleepy European big companies is probably your best option if outside the US. In most European countries, there's insane cost benefits to having contractors vs. employees due to the social welfare systems and impossibility of firing an employee. So contractor rates can match US ones.
For all the talk about COVID unlocking the global marketplace of talent, I don't see any evidence of that happening yet.
Covid has eliminated geographic barriers to talent within countries, but the barriers between countries are still too scary for risk-averse, late-adopting HR/Compliance/Legal types to deal with.
Give it another 5 years before the FUD clears.
If you're outside the US, forget about salaried roles. I've found that a vast majority of companies mentioned above will have blanket policies against hiring non-US workers (most HR departments are still living in the past and don't know services like Pilot, Deel, Remote.com, etc exist).
Also, there's virtually zero non-American companies that pay those kind of salaries--save for a few select places like Singapore, Zurich (and funny enough, its also the American companies in those cities that pay the highest).
Contracting for sleepy European big companies is probably your best option if outside the US. In most European countries, there's insane cost benefits to having contractors vs. employees due to the social welfare systems and impossibility of firing an employee. So contractor rates can match US ones.
For all the talk about COVID unlocking the global marketplace of talent, I don't see any evidence of that happening yet.
Covid has eliminated geographic barriers to talent within countries, but the barriers between countries are still too scary for risk-averse, late-adopting HR/Compliance/Legal types to deal with.
Give it another 5 years before the FUD clears.
First part of the analysis is correct. But I care to disagree with the second one starting from here "For all the talk about COVID unlocking the global marketplace of talent, I don't see any evidence of that happening yet."
I work exclusively remotely for around 4 years, and I was able to find good remote jobs previously, but after the pandemic started I noticed a large increase of offers and especially noticeable were offers from US companies/startups which were less common before.
I'm based in Eastern Europe, but I do spend a lot of time abroad also traveling and I'm happy that a lot of new companies have embraced remote work.
> Also, there's virtually zero non-American companies that pay those kind of salaries--save for a few select places like Singapore.
What Singapore companies offer US-level compensation? I was interested in relocating to Singapore a while ago but was unimpressed by salaries there.
What Singapore companies offer US-level compensation? I was interested in relocating to Singapore a while ago but was unimpressed by salaries there.
I just received an offer from a unicorn where over a third of my total comp are ISOs. After reading many posts here about the number of ways they can be worth $0 even in the event of an IPO, I'm not so sure I want to accept.
I can accept that prospect, but the thing I find the be really messed up is how you can be diluted beyond what you agreed to? It's not a percentage of ownership. They can just issue more shares. I don't get that.
Dilution can happen when investors put money into the company, increasing the value of shares. Does it matter if you own 1% of a million dollar valuation company? Or 0.1% of a 10 million dollar one?
Separately, I haven’t seen an equity grant in terms of percentage of the company, so on paper one never agrees to a percentage ownership anyways.
Separately, I haven’t seen an equity grant in terms of percentage of the company, so on paper one never agrees to a percentage ownership anyways.
Personally I would just identify a technical niche that is highly valued by certain industries, and specialize in that.
For example in high-frequency trading, there is a small niche developing ultra-low-latency FPGAs or ASICs for trading systems. The work in question is fairly straightforward compared to other industries, but most of the people with the right skillset tend to go to aerospace or other big user of sophisticated electrical engineering instead. The number of positions in the relevant niche is low, but given that there are so few people, they won't care where they are, could sponsor a green card and will pay very well.
For example in high-frequency trading, there is a small niche developing ultra-low-latency FPGAs or ASICs for trading systems. The work in question is fairly straightforward compared to other industries, but most of the people with the right skillset tend to go to aerospace or other big user of sophisticated electrical engineering instead. The number of positions in the relevant niche is low, but given that there are so few people, they won't care where they are, could sponsor a green card and will pay very well.
I run a job board for FPGA people and hoo WEE do the HFT firms compensate amply. Talking two to three times the salary of a comparable position at a defense or chip company.
That's not to say you won't be earning it. The corporate culture sounds absolutely savage: https://www.reddit.com/r/FPGA/comments/pj43ar/my_experience_...
That's not to say you won't be earning it. The corporate culture sounds absolutely savage: https://www.reddit.com/r/FPGA/comments/pj43ar/my_experience_...
Wow, that was an interesting read.
Not sure I'm up for working in such a toxic environment, but the technical challenges seem very interesting.
Not sure I'm up for working in such a toxic environment, but the technical challenges seem very interesting.
I worked in financial trading for a few years in the 1990s. It was the same deal then: pay was great, industry was a boys club run by assholes, work environment was toxic. After a few years I was very much burnt out and had to change careers from sysadmin work to software development as my internal reaction to being asked to do sysadmin had become waves of nausea and hostility. Took me years to get over it.
So if you are tempted to do financial industry work, make sure to price in the risk of lost work time, years of therapy, etc. It was a fascinating experience and I learned a ton, but financially it was not a net win for me in the long term.
So if you are tempted to do financial industry work, make sure to price in the risk of lost work time, years of therapy, etc. It was a fascinating experience and I learned a ton, but financially it was not a net win for me in the long term.
indeed.
> If they don't have an FPGA engineer, or have a very small team, they are not serious about finance, or they are just dumb.
are FPGAs that core to Finance writ large?
> If they don't have an FPGA engineer, or have a very small team, they are not serious about finance, or they are just dumb.
are FPGAs that core to Finance writ large?
No. A large majority of trading strategies don't require the low latency that FPGAs help provide.
There is some truth to this statement though, if such a firm is trying to pursue a certain kind of strategy - to compete on latency, some of your business must be in hardware.
There is some truth to this statement though, if such a firm is trying to pursue a certain kind of strategy - to compete on latency, some of your business must be in hardware.
Not really. There are only a few financial instruments worldwide where very low latency matters, and there you'd be competing against people who have invested millions in custom transceivers, so it's unlikely FPGA work on a readymade board is really going to make much of a difference.
But like all industries, there are many factors that contribute to success. FPGA work might help improve things a bit even if you're not the best.
But like all industries, there are many factors that contribute to success. FPGA work might help improve things a bit even if you're not the best.
Not to mention the fact that your job would be less than meaningless
What kind of meaningful job produces enough value to justify making 7x what the median US worker makes?
When young, I was asked to take over reporting for a couple weeks while someone went on vacation. It was a full time position that required 7 solid hours a day of work.
I had the position fully automated by the time person got back. Thankfully they took it well and they got more interesting assignments.
2 weeks of my time saved several years of salary for company. I did this many times.
I had the position fully automated by the time person got back. Thankfully they took it well and they got more interesting assignments.
2 weeks of my time saved several years of salary for company. I did this many times.
Ironically, that is also what the “meaningless” HFT firms do. Automate trading so fewer and fewer traders are needed.
They are not replacing "needed traders", i.e. people that used to execute trades required by real people or companies, like "buy some Apple stock". These firms are playing their very own game in the markets, ultimately extracing money from the economy, with the supposed public benefit of "creating liquidity" (not needed for real investors who can very well wait a day or two before closing a deal) while actually distorting the markets and obscuring the real value).
The way the market works is that there are people who want to buy liquidity (the buy side) and people that are willing to sell that liquidity to them (the sell side).
It doesn't refer to buying or selling lots but rather initiating/fulfilling orders regardless of side.
The buy side are typically pension or hedge funds that act based on predictions they have about the future to maximize long-term the value of their portfolio. The sell side are either banks or specialized HFT firms that only know the instantaneous price of things and their short-term correlations (and not how they might evolve long-term), whose goal is to collect the difference between bid and ask price, tabling on the fact they can sell back their inventory to someone else before the price goes against them. They expose themselves to the risk that price moves before they can do that, and the difference in price between the bid and ask reflects that uncertainty.
The sell side is essential for the buy side to function, and the competition between them leads them to them providing the tightest possible margins and therefore the best price for investors.
The HFT players provide the tightest prices by being very fast to react to market changes and get out of their risk, which is why it's highly technology-driven.
Thinking they have no value shows lack of understanding of market dynamics. Without HFT firms, investors would just be paying large commissions to banks instead.
The buy side are typically pension or hedge funds that act based on predictions they have about the future to maximize long-term the value of their portfolio. The sell side are either banks or specialized HFT firms that only know the instantaneous price of things and their short-term correlations (and not how they might evolve long-term), whose goal is to collect the difference between bid and ask price, tabling on the fact they can sell back their inventory to someone else before the price goes against them. They expose themselves to the risk that price moves before they can do that, and the difference in price between the bid and ask reflects that uncertainty.
The sell side is essential for the buy side to function, and the competition between them leads them to them providing the tightest possible margins and therefore the best price for investors.
The HFT players provide the tightest prices by being very fast to react to market changes and get out of their risk, which is why it's highly technology-driven.
Thinking they have no value shows lack of understanding of market dynamics. Without HFT firms, investors would just be paying large commissions to banks instead.
No one is stopping the buyers who can wait a day or two from placing limit orders.
If the HFT firms are earning profits, it is because someone wants to pay them for the liquidity.
If the HFT firms are earning profits, it is because someone wants to pay them for the liquidity.
Low latency trading is so crucial to the economy that the market mostly shuts down at 4pm every day and takes weekends and holidays, adding 2^47 nanosecond delays every week without much outcry.
And whoever wins by 20ns gets rewarded the same as the previous guy who was winning by 21ns. The magnitude of latency isn't rewarded, just coming in first, so more and is spent on less an less absolute improvements, none of which have been relevant to human reaction times for decades.
And whoever wins by 20ns gets rewarded the same as the previous guy who was winning by 21ns. The magnitude of latency isn't rewarded, just coming in first, so more and is spent on less an less absolute improvements, none of which have been relevant to human reaction times for decades.
> The magnitude of latency isn't rewarded, just coming in first, so more and is spent on less an less absolute improvements, none of which have been relevant to human reaction times for decades.
So why are the HFT firms earning profits? There is no law that says people are obligated to do business with them. There is no law that says people have to buy at the prices HFT firms are selling at and sell at the prices HFT firms are buying at.
So why are the HFT firms earning profits? There is no law that says people are obligated to do business with them. There is no law that says people have to buy at the prices HFT firms are selling at and sell at the prices HFT firms are buying at.
If someone come in and beats them by .001ns they get all their profits. Is .001ns really worth that reward? The utility provided is mostly detached from the reward, it is just winner gets it.
Worth what reward? Once an HFT firm buys a security, they now have to sell it again. Or vice versa if they sell a security. Do you think they earn a profit on every trade? There is risk in every trade, sometimes they overpay, sometimes they underpay.
It makes no material difference to the profits of a buy and hold investor. If it did, buy and hold investors would not trade with HFT firms.
It makes no material difference to the profits of a buy and hold investor. If it did, buy and hold investors would not trade with HFT firms.
Not all markets are deterministic, in some there is some level of jitter so fastest guy doesn't always win anyway.
Some markets also take steps to prevent the speed game too in how they define the rules.
While for obvious big moves it might be all about latency, most events are more about the quality of your pricing, incorporating correlated information, edge requirement and risk management that decides what you go for and what you don't, and for those smarter trades you usually have microseconds to spare.
While for obvious big moves it might be all about latency, most events are more about the quality of your pricing, incorporating correlated information, edge requirement and risk management that decides what you go for and what you don't, and for those smarter trades you usually have microseconds to spare.
> Low latency trading is so crucial to the economy that the market mostly shuts down at 4pm every day and takes weekends and holidays, adding 2^47 nanosecond delays every week without much outcry.
To this I would say: grocery stores (which serve as a sort of middleman to a whole host of necessary goods and are clearly crucial to the economy) close overnight without much outcry.
(To be clear, I think grocery stores are far more important to the economy/society than HFTs, but I think your argument for why is poor)
To this I would say: grocery stores (which serve as a sort of middleman to a whole host of necessary goods and are clearly crucial to the economy) close overnight without much outcry.
(To be clear, I think grocery stores are far more important to the economy/society than HFTs, but I think your argument for why is poor)
One grocery store doesn't bury another by being humanly imperceptibly faster at returning carts than the other by a microsecond, and if they were forced by the structure of the market to spend tons of money on that before investing in being open 24/7 which real customers care far more about and provides far more value, it would seem really weird and like something was really messed up with market incentives in the grocery store industry.
> One grocery store doesn't bury another by being humanly imperceptibly faster at returning carts than the other by a microsecond
One trading strategy being faster than another does not automatically make it better. This is a common misconception.
One trading strategy being faster than another does not automatically make it better. This is a common misconception.
Anyone who buys organically is buying after the HFT firms have made their buying decisions on the entirety of the market, it's not possible to "wait a day or two". The deal will be incrementally worse as these firms extract value, your price will be the one that all of these firms deemed "meh".
It's like walking into a grocery store and the banana you really want it 1$ and you'll buy. Because that's the price that highly sophisticated middlemen between the store and you have determined to be good.
The liquidity argument is abstract and unquantifyable enough to be used as a fig leaf for the industry. Real investors who are in it for fundamental values, dividends or strategy don't need to sell in a nanosecond. Now that you can sell in a nanosecond your deal is bad, as in the moment you hear of the Volkswagen scandal all the trading algorithms are done with their work already.
It's like walking into a grocery store and the banana you really want it 1$ and you'll buy. Because that's the price that highly sophisticated middlemen between the store and you have determined to be good.
The liquidity argument is abstract and unquantifyable enough to be used as a fig leaf for the industry. Real investors who are in it for fundamental values, dividends or strategy don't need to sell in a nanosecond. Now that you can sell in a nanosecond your deal is bad, as in the moment you hear of the Volkswagen scandal all the trading algorithms are done with their work already.
> Now that you can sell in a nanosecond your deal is bad, as in the moment you hear of the Volkswagen scandal all the trading algorithms are done with their work already.
You can only sell in a nanosecond because someone else is willing to buy in a nanosecond. And if your goal is to earn money trading in time horizons of minutes or hours or even days, you probably are not equipped to do that as a retail investor.
Why should you have the right to dump VW after the scandal and not someone else? What about an investor that did not read the news until the next day?
> The deal will be incrementally worse as these firms extract value, your price will be the one that all of these firms deemed "meh".
No one owes you arbitrage opportunity. If you think the banana is worth $1, then it is worth $1. Maybe a nanosecond ago you could have bought it at $.999999, but as long as you still think it is worth $1, then what is the problem with paying $1?
You can only sell in a nanosecond because someone else is willing to buy in a nanosecond. And if your goal is to earn money trading in time horizons of minutes or hours or even days, you probably are not equipped to do that as a retail investor.
Why should you have the right to dump VW after the scandal and not someone else? What about an investor that did not read the news until the next day?
> The deal will be incrementally worse as these firms extract value, your price will be the one that all of these firms deemed "meh".
No one owes you arbitrage opportunity. If you think the banana is worth $1, then it is worth $1. Maybe a nanosecond ago you could have bought it at $.999999, but as long as you still think it is worth $1, then what is the problem with paying $1?
Not the right place to debate further but it seems this topic seems to be underdiscussed or I present my points not well enough. Certainly my goal is neither to earn money in horizons of days, nor to have arbitrage opportunities at all. All of that is nonsense and would assume the legitimacy of people who sit in front of computer screens looking at stock charts. Value creating is a long term endeavour and so should be investing.
If we let go of the mentality to "dump VW after the scandal before someone else" we find ourselves with bad news about VW and new conclusions about a good value for the stock and people buying and selling accordingly after all have ready their morning paper. A small Tobin tax or other technical measures can prevent unethical actors from taking the banana out of your shopping cart and pricing it within nanoseconds.
The supply-and-demand maximalism is a holdover from anticommunist thinking and ignores market distortions like Zillow's real estate buying.
If we let go of the mentality to "dump VW after the scandal before someone else" we find ourselves with bad news about VW and new conclusions about a good value for the stock and people buying and selling accordingly after all have ready their morning paper. A small Tobin tax or other technical measures can prevent unethical actors from taking the banana out of your shopping cart and pricing it within nanoseconds.
The supply-and-demand maximalism is a holdover from anticommunist thinking and ignores market distortions like Zillow's real estate buying.
How do I reach this level of confidence in programming ability?
Automate everything. Regardless if it saves time or not. Pickup a good scripting language. Ruby or python.
Spend time with business people on “why” they are doing something.
Learn Excel.
After awhile you will be incredibly good at highly useful business process stuff.
Spend time with business people on “why” they are doing something.
Learn Excel.
After awhile you will be incredibly good at highly useful business process stuff.
I wonder if this stuff pays well though. I recall someone showing me a position at Jane Street (since this thread was discussing HFTs) with at was looking for a VBA developer to develop some sort of integrations between their APIs and Excel sheets I guess someone in the company loved.
My first though was “there’s no way this is paying what you typically see for Jane Street developer salaries”.
My first though was “there’s no way this is paying what you typically see for Jane Street developer salaries”.
Payed crap. It setup me up for success.
Learned more in demand stuff and my pay is top notch.
Learned more in demand stuff and my pay is top notch.
Do you mean meaningful in the bull** jobs way or the moralistic way? I find the moralistic version confusing. I usually hear it applied to CEO pay, which last year was 350x the average worker. But what will ever feel like a fair or just differential? 7x? 3x? And what would be a fair metric? Are dentists less or more than social workers? What about dangerous jobs, are lumberjacks worth more than coal miners?
None, but neither does any job that makes double or triple digit multiples of what the US median worker makes.
Liquidity is not meaningless.
They don't really create liquidity, but they did narrow the bid-ask spread. The "liquidity" they provide dries up when volatility spikes anyways (although that was always true, so not really a criticism of HFT).
Can you self teach yourself into these positions or do they filter for a degree?
A bit of both. The market is white hot right now, so there's a better than usual chance of getting something. Of course there's still a lot of applicants so it's useful to have the right degree.
The thing to do is talk to headhunter firms. I've always maintained a number of relationships with the leading firms in my area (quant trading) and they'll call now and again. But if you don't know them, get in touch and they'll usually tell you if you're useful to them.
The thing to do is talk to headhunter firms. I've always maintained a number of relationships with the leading firms in my area (quant trading) and they'll call now and again. But if you don't know them, get in touch and they'll usually tell you if you're useful to them.
You can learn the basics of FPGA development on your own (I did), but you need to go to a company that uses them to actually get good.[0] Which probably means a defense contractor or maybe a telecom company. A finance firm isn't going to hire some random person who knows FPGA dev unless they have done real world projects.
[0]: I'm sure there are exceptions of people who self taught themselves and are great, but it is significantly harder to break into than software.
[0]: I'm sure there are exceptions of people who self taught themselves and are great, but it is significantly harder to break into than software.
This kind of post is somewhere between depressing and surreal to me.
I live a long way outside the US - UTC+8 - and these sort of numbers are utterly unreal for most of the world. In my recent experience, pre-, during- and 'post-'pandemic, the vast majority of remote companies aren't willing or able to consider people outside their local timezone(s) and/or tax jurisdictions, while my local market is masssively under-developed compared with most other developed parts of the world, unless you can break into banking.
My most recent income was a little over a third of this, and that was with a bank, albeit on a devops-ish contract. I am a senior engineer - you could say mid-senior if you really wanted to pick holes in my CV - and I'm pretty much ready to quit the local market, and then likely relocate due to inability to pay rent otherwise...
Meh. Have a good end of year and stay safe, y'all.
I live a long way outside the US - UTC+8 - and these sort of numbers are utterly unreal for most of the world. In my recent experience, pre-, during- and 'post-'pandemic, the vast majority of remote companies aren't willing or able to consider people outside their local timezone(s) and/or tax jurisdictions, while my local market is masssively under-developed compared with most other developed parts of the world, unless you can break into banking.
My most recent income was a little over a third of this, and that was with a bank, albeit on a devops-ish contract. I am a senior engineer - you could say mid-senior if you really wanted to pick holes in my CV - and I'm pretty much ready to quit the local market, and then likely relocate due to inability to pay rent otherwise...
Meh. Have a good end of year and stay safe, y'all.
The logical conclusion is to move to the US, then.
But seriously, the software industry concentrates in the US. The high salary represents (in part) this concentration rather than something about the US itself.
Thus, it makes sense that companies are not looking outward - employees that are worth this kind of salary have already moved to the US. Similar to how other industries chose other places to concentrate. Any "market" of numerous agents requires an agreed-upon "marketplace" - not just geographically, but also legally.
In my experience, the easiest way to earn more is to work as a contractor. You can charge more, have more control over your time, get raises more often and go on holiday more often (every 6 months).
I made a whole video series about getting into contracting. This first one lays out my take on why you should consider it - https://learnetto.com/tutorials/why-should-you-become-a-cont...
I made a whole video series about getting into contracting. This first one lays out my take on why you should consider it - https://learnetto.com/tutorials/why-should-you-become-a-cont...
How hard was it for you to find a client ready to pay 130$+/hour?
Not sure where you got that number from, but getting about that much after a few years of experience is not very hard at all. I've only worked for a daily rate, never hourly. I'm based in the UK where a senior developer can get contracts upwards of £600 per day pretty easily.
Now with remote work being the standard, you can get much more if you work for good US companies.
Now with remote work being the standard, you can get much more if you work for good US companies.
You need to passively attract the attention of multiple potential employers with lots of money — either revenue or funding — and then let them outbid each other until you find your true maximum market value.
That means getting found by sourcers (recruiters) without explicitly making contact with them. Recruiters are, alas, still prejudiced against active candidates when you are trying to claw your way up the seniority ladder.
You need to show up in their searches somehow e.g. sign up for tech talks / seminars, update your LinkedIn and visit their LI profiles (LI will tell the recruiter / exec that you are looking at their profile, unless you have a pro account.)
None of this is particularly duplicitous. If you don’t have the chops you won’t get an offer. But it certainly helps tip the negotiation in your favour a little bit.
That means getting found by sourcers (recruiters) without explicitly making contact with them. Recruiters are, alas, still prejudiced against active candidates when you are trying to claw your way up the seniority ladder.
You need to show up in their searches somehow e.g. sign up for tech talks / seminars, update your LinkedIn and visit their LI profiles (LI will tell the recruiter / exec that you are looking at their profile, unless you have a pro account.)
None of this is particularly duplicitous. If you don’t have the chops you won’t get an offer. But it certainly helps tip the negotiation in your favour a little bit.
Anecdotally, I got what the OP was looking for with only one offer. Didn’t need to pit any offers against each other, didn’t go through any external recruiters. As with any advice, YMMV but it’s completely possible to find a singular role that the OP is looking for with a bit of luck (and being skilled in your job as well).
The easiest way to make a lot more money…
Get a job making 120-180 but 4 days a week. It is possible to do this. Make sure it is not an exciting company, but rather a corporate, slow moving one.
Now you can pick up a contract making 100+ per hour. 15-20 hours a week.
Do 4 hours of the main job. Do 4 hours of the freelance work.
You’ll easily be making 250k.
Another thing to note, as a developer you can solve a problem in 1 hour that may take others 4,5, or 10. At your full time job, schedule your work and spread out when you complete tasks.
I’ve found this is a solid way to make a lot of money 200-300k, at non FAANG, and I have been able to fit it all into 4 days every week. I also work less than 40 hours on average. I’m not affiliated with it, but there is a site called overemployed with more tips on doing this.
The key is getting a really slow, easy remote job first. This is easy to manage if you’re a good senior dev
Get a job making 120-180 but 4 days a week. It is possible to do this. Make sure it is not an exciting company, but rather a corporate, slow moving one.
Now you can pick up a contract making 100+ per hour. 15-20 hours a week.
Do 4 hours of the main job. Do 4 hours of the freelance work.
You’ll easily be making 250k.
Another thing to note, as a developer you can solve a problem in 1 hour that may take others 4,5, or 10. At your full time job, schedule your work and spread out when you complete tasks.
I’ve found this is a solid way to make a lot of money 200-300k, at non FAANG, and I have been able to fit it all into 4 days every week. I also work less than 40 hours on average. I’m not affiliated with it, but there is a site called overemployed with more tips on doing this.
The key is getting a really slow, easy remote job first. This is easy to manage if you’re a good senior dev
> The easiest way to make a lot more money…
Finding two separate jobs that each pay median developer salaries while requiring only half-time input, working them concurrently, and then constantly finding new contract jobs that fit your criteria is not what I’d call “easy”
FWIW, I’ve managed remote teams for a long time. It’s not hard to spot the people who are playing games like this to put in half-time.
Finding two separate jobs that each pay median developer salaries while requiring only half-time input, working them concurrently, and then constantly finding new contract jobs that fit your criteria is not what I’d call “easy”
FWIW, I’ve managed remote teams for a long time. It’s not hard to spot the people who are playing games like this to put in half-time.
Not every place is a startup first off, there’s many companies that hire separate frontend, backend, every little thing is a separate team. I’ve found these places to be the easiest workplace to get work done in less time.
Finding the second, part time contract is incredibly easy right now.
There’s 2-3 recruiters per day that email all of us on linked in. All you have to do is say “I’m only open to part time contracts at this time” and every other day you’ll have a request to interview and they don’t mind a part time commitment.
People make this seem so much harder than it is. It’s just networking well, and becoming an expert at your chosen language / field. Then you can easily produce enough output to keep everyone happy.
Finding the second, part time contract is incredibly easy right now.
There’s 2-3 recruiters per day that email all of us on linked in. All you have to do is say “I’m only open to part time contracts at this time” and every other day you’ll have a request to interview and they don’t mind a part time commitment.
People make this seem so much harder than it is. It’s just networking well, and becoming an expert at your chosen language / field. Then you can easily produce enough output to keep everyone happy.
It might not be hard for you to spot those people. But as best I can tell, the median software developer has a not-very-good manager. So I suspect quite a lot of people could get away with some sandbagging.
That's a shame, as that's exactly the fear not-very-good managers have of remote work. I expect we'll see a reaction toward proctological monitoring of remote workers, even professional software developers.
That's a shame, as that's exactly the fear not-very-good managers have of remote work. I expect we'll see a reaction toward proctological monitoring of remote workers, even professional software developers.
The person probably is doing more work than they claim.
Is it that easy to spot people? I always felt like the baseline for work at my jobs was 2-3 hours a day of productivity + 5 hours of screwing around for most people.
There were always the outliers who seemed 2X-3X productive. Anyway, you would be still doing double the work of the lazy people.
Is it that easy to spot people? I always felt like the baseline for work at my jobs was 2-3 hours a day of productivity + 5 hours of screwing around for most people.
There were always the outliers who seemed 2X-3X productive. Anyway, you would be still doing double the work of the lazy people.
> It’s not hard to spot the people who are playing games like this to put in half-time.
Only if they suck.
Only if they suck.
Exactly, if they’re doing a good job, how will you know.
You are biased because you’ve found people out, you don’t know how many others are doing extra work on the side, that you don’t ever catch.
You are biased because you’ve found people out, you don’t know how many others are doing extra work on the side, that you don’t ever catch.
Does it matter, if they don't suck?
yea tbh working hard and iterating on skillset to climb the promotion ladder sounds/was much easier for me.
I am able to fit all my work into 4 days and make 275~. I think that is tough to have in a single company. Unless you are FAANG and even then, I doubt you’d be at 4 days. I’m curious how your hard work was able to get you such substantial raises?
What’s your strategy if the 2nd job is more time-consuming than you hoped for? Quit within a month?
Or do you only go for part-time contracted stuff, so you can prioritize your original job and then fill in the gaps with paid productivity at the part time gig?
Or do you only go for part-time contracted stuff, so you can prioritize your original job and then fill in the gaps with paid productivity at the part time gig?
I would make sure the contract work is a skill area you are very comfortable with. Since it is only a contract, I wouldn’t necessarily be opposed to leaving that quickly. But I would prefer to stay for 3-6 months at least.
I originally was going to try to do the full overemployed suggestion of two full time jobs but it’s much harder.
If you can find two jobs that have zero meetings. Go for it. With one being contract and part time, it’s much easier to set time boxes for things and ensure you are not stressed trying to join overlapping meetings.
I originally was going to try to do the full overemployed suggestion of two full time jobs but it’s much harder.
If you can find two jobs that have zero meetings. Go for it. With one being contract and part time, it’s much easier to set time boxes for things and ensure you are not stressed trying to join overlapping meetings.
Yeah the thing is, if your current job has random meetings that pop up from time to time or if they change the recurring time of your scrum or something…. And it overlaps with the 2nd jobs scrum, then you’re pretty much screwed.
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Sales.
When I lived in an expensive part of SF (not long) I was eager to ask around "What do you do for a living?" Sales. One guy managed to bring in 20 million dollars worth of contracts into a tech company by calling his friends. His comp was north of 1 million for one year. He wanted 2 million for the next. That is a good deal for a company and easy to justify that comp. Another lady sold energy contracts. Another lady sold real-estate. Another guy worked in Oracle sales. What I learned: what revenue they generated for the company they got a cut. These people could walk into any company and add IMMEDIATE value. Their personal freedom was also astonishing, their employer couldn't care less where they were or what they were doing. Just bring in a sale.
When I lived in an expensive part of SF (not long) I was eager to ask around "What do you do for a living?" Sales. One guy managed to bring in 20 million dollars worth of contracts into a tech company by calling his friends. His comp was north of 1 million for one year. He wanted 2 million for the next. That is a good deal for a company and easy to justify that comp. Another lady sold energy contracts. Another lady sold real-estate. Another guy worked in Oracle sales. What I learned: what revenue they generated for the company they got a cut. These people could walk into any company and add IMMEDIATE value. Their personal freedom was also astonishing, their employer couldn't care less where they were or what they were doing. Just bring in a sale.
Go work for Meta (other MANGA companies would likely work but I'm not as familiar with them). Meta is shooting to have a significant portion of their workforce be remote over the next five years so they're pretty much always willing to offer full time remote. As someone working remote, I can say their location-based pay adjustments really doesn't scale to local cost of living (in a good way). Plus thanks to all the bad publicity they're struggling to fill roles.
Note: I'm talking about working remotely in the US, if you want to be remote from a different country Meta may not work for you.
Note: I'm talking about working remotely in the US, if you want to be remote from a different country Meta may not work for you.
MANGA companies. It didn't take HN long, did it.
What I will never understand is how harmless old Netflix found its way into an acronym for the big beasts of tech. Not even Microsoft gets that privilege (for some reason).
The acronym wasn't so much about 'the Big Tech' companies, more about 'Innovative tech companies that dominate, or are poised to dominate, their market'.
Also remember that the landscape has changed since the initial FANG acronym came into existence.
Also remember that the landscape has changed since the initial FANG acronym came into existence.
It was specifically a Jim Cramer-coined term for companies whose stock was hot at the time--which correlated somewhat loosely with both comp and dominance. Netflix is somewhat of an outlier in various respects and arguably Microsoft should probably be on the list today--even if the WA-headquartered companies tend to pay less than the CA-based ones.
$600,000/year compensation for programmers
Is this for real? I thought $400k was sort the max for regular high end engineers.
You have to consider total comp and then factor in that Netflix only pays cash but competes against the others. So you can get 600k at Meta via cash+equity+bonus you get the same all in salary and bonus from Netflix.
Oh, it's for real alright: https://www.levels.fyi/company/Netflix/salaries/Software-Eng...
Easily over a million for high end/staff eng at FAANG/ish companies.
I think it's literally just that they pay well
I've heard it as MAGMA recently
That's high enough that it would be difficult to find alternatives to FAANG
and some of them may accept remote or not (highly uncertain), employees are certainly pushing for it but may be difficult to justify the high salary without coming to office in the future when things start getting back to normal
and some of them may accept remote or not (highly uncertain), employees are certainly pushing for it but may be difficult to justify the high salary without coming to office in the future when things start getting back to normal
They could be lucky and score a job in an overfunded startup.
Until said startup fails..
If it’s overfunded they probably have cash to burn for a few years at least
If you spend more time at something doomed to fail, is that better or worse?
The failure rate of the average start up is heavily against you.
My outlook is that you will have to work through a few failed start ups before you finally build/find employment with a successful one. That being said, it can be soul destroying to see a product/system you’ve worked hard on to never go to market / go live.
My outlook is that you will have to work through a few failed start ups before you finally build/find employment with a successful one. That being said, it can be soul destroying to see a product/system you’ve worked hard on to never go to market / go live.
Oh, for sure. I have been there more than once with the technically sound product that isn't going anywhere. It's awful. So another way to put my question: Once you figure out why the current startup isn't going to make it, why stay? For some people the answer is, "They keep paying you." But for me the answer is, "You probably shouldn't. Move on to something with a chance."
This is very hard in Germany or not possible at all (beside maybe FAANG).
I have a PhD in Machine Learning (including Papers at SIGKDD / ECML / ACL etc.) as well as relevant working experiences and it is just not possible to get this numbers. I tried really hard to get something that pays this well (beside FAANG) that hire here because i can not move (family stuff).
I once talked with Google and Amazon Research (before Covid) and they told me no remote only (thats why i skipped them for now). Did this policy changed?
I have a PhD in Machine Learning (including Papers at SIGKDD / ECML / ACL etc.) as well as relevant working experiences and it is just not possible to get this numbers. I tried really hard to get something that pays this well (beside FAANG) that hire here because i can not move (family stuff).
I once talked with Google and Amazon Research (before Covid) and they told me no remote only (thats why i skipped them for now). Did this policy changed?
It would have been easier for you if you had papers in NeuroIPS, ICML, ICLR, or CVPR. The ones you mentioned don’t impress anyone.
A few months ago I made a 180k offer to a guy in England who wanted to be fully remote. He rejected it because he got a better offer. He had two papers (ICML and ICLR).
A few months ago I made a 180k offer to a guy in England who wanted to be fully remote. He rejected it because he got a better offer. He had two papers (ICML and ICLR).
afaik yes the policy changed, there now is Germany-remote as a „location“ but this doesn’t come by default you put in a request and it needs Director or someone equally as high to approve it. Easier to do internally rather than as a new hire (when you’re not applying for a very experienced role). Sometimes teams have a „remote ok“ policy when specialists cannot be found locally but this is rare.
I'm CTO for a Series A startup. We have 4 engineers who are making $200k - $300k in cash (excluding options). They are all referrals with 10+ years of experience (in some cases 15+) and they also have deep technical expertise in specific areas we need: Payments, Banking, Data Engineering etc.
Your CV matters but your prior work relationships matter more. Ask yourself: who, among all the folks i have ever worked for would refer me to their current employer and say: "We really need to hire this person - pay them as much as we can afford".
Your CV matters but your prior work relationships matter more. Ask yourself: who, among all the folks i have ever worked for would refer me to their current employer and say: "We really need to hire this person - pay them as much as we can afford".
It's quite easy to do that find good companies and do good work in a very particular niche that underpromise and overdeliver (and go under on pricing) and use that to get more work at other companies. Then progressively go higher on pricing and do more than 1 (so you end up at 400k+) then pick the one you want and drop the other work. But if you start high you'll have a hard time proving your work easily, especially if its not specialised and you're not recognised in any way. It's alot of hard work to do the multiple at a go but you get there in the end.
If you simply want the $250k because thats what others are getting or something but cannot actually create the value you'll have a hard time getting there. An easy test for this is you feel you are underpaid at $250k vs being in a situation now where you can't get $250k at any job (non remote or otherwise)
If you simply want the $250k because thats what others are getting or something but cannot actually create the value you'll have a hard time getting there. An easy test for this is you feel you are underpaid at $250k vs being in a situation now where you can't get $250k at any job (non remote or otherwise)
Lots of SF companies that do remote without price alterations. A friend used to work at one: Safegraph.
I gotta tell you, though, that life at these SF startups isn’t the same as the low-output stuff you see at big companies. I’ve worked at a few and the expectation is that you are actually senior, i.e. you take ownership over things.
A lot of complaints you hear on HN are not meaningful in these environments: like when HN users complain about “management” telling them to do things and so on. Your job is execution on the product, not to be a func :: Specs -> Code.
Lots of engineers don’t want that sort of responsibility, so if you’re one of those people who prefer to just be someone supplied a detailed spec and then write code that matches then it’s not an environment you’re suited to.
It does pay well, though.
I gotta tell you, though, that life at these SF startups isn’t the same as the low-output stuff you see at big companies. I’ve worked at a few and the expectation is that you are actually senior, i.e. you take ownership over things.
A lot of complaints you hear on HN are not meaningful in these environments: like when HN users complain about “management” telling them to do things and so on. Your job is execution on the product, not to be a func :: Specs -> Code.
Lots of engineers don’t want that sort of responsibility, so if you’re one of those people who prefer to just be someone supplied a detailed spec and then write code that matches then it’s not an environment you’re suited to.
It does pay well, though.
Consult.
When you are able to advise company leaders, then you magnify your worth and theirs, because you advance their projects and their employees. This makes you significantly more valuable in ways that the leaders are seeking.
In my experience, this necessitates you becoming an expert, such as in one specific technology, or one kind of integration, or one industry sector need, or in one kind of business leadership technique.
When you are able to advise company leaders, then you magnify your worth and theirs, because you advance their projects and their employees. This makes you significantly more valuable in ways that the leaders are seeking.
In my experience, this necessitates you becoming an expert, such as in one specific technology, or one kind of integration, or one industry sector need, or in one kind of business leadership technique.
If it's difficult for you to earn $X/year in person in a high income area, then you'll probably find it even more difficult to earn $X/year remotely.
It is definitely possible to achieve the total compensation you're looking for working remote. The companies generally fall into two categories: FAANG/MANGA/BigTechAcronymOfTheWeek companies that are remote-tolerant, and remote-first companies that are either late-stage startups or recently IPO'ed. The first category can certainly support 250k+ for an SWE at a level similar to L5 or higher. The bar will certainly be higher for the second category (as they don't have stupid amounts of money that FAANG does), so Staff+ will likely be the only positions that offer that type of compensation. Levels.fyi is a great resource to see current TC levels for offers being given by these companies.
I have been recently going down the same path you have, so I can list some options I have encountered, for whatever that may be worth:
* Coinbase
* Confluent
* Addepar
* Gemini
* Ramp
* Reddit (doesn't change compensation based on location like many companies, by the way!)
* Socure
* Benchling ...
I have been recently going down the same path you have, so I can list some options I have encountered, for whatever that may be worth:
* Coinbase
* Confluent
* Addepar
* Gemini
* Ramp
* Reddit (doesn't change compensation based on location like many companies, by the way!)
* Socure
* Benchling ...
When I came to the US I worked and earned $47/hr as a developer, I was employed as a consultant and had one client whom paid the consulting company $550/hr for my services. I worked over 40h/week but my pay was capped at 40h. I worked this job for 3 years. It was a bit of a sweat shop, but it worked out as after 3 years I was able to get a much better paid job.
I did something close to this before "fully remote" was popular. This probably isn't the answer you're looking for, but it worked for me:
Take a non-remote job (as far as possible under Covid conditions) and spend a couple years proving your worth, then sell your manager on fully-remote. Be flexible but respect your non-negotiables whatever they are. At this point, if you're good, your manager is highly motivated to keep you and if you're being reasonable, they will try to make it happen.
Note that there are some companies -- particularly FAANGs -- that have very strict rules about this, so if your "ask" is "digital nomad" and you go to Google, that's not gonna work. But if it's "WFH in Tahoe" you can probably pull it off.
Good luck with it! I'm going to try the same next year if "starting my own startup" doesn't gel.
Take a non-remote job (as far as possible under Covid conditions) and spend a couple years proving your worth, then sell your manager on fully-remote. Be flexible but respect your non-negotiables whatever they are. At this point, if you're good, your manager is highly motivated to keep you and if you're being reasonable, they will try to make it happen.
Note that there are some companies -- particularly FAANGs -- that have very strict rules about this, so if your "ask" is "digital nomad" and you go to Google, that's not gonna work. But if it's "WFH in Tahoe" you can probably pull it off.
Good luck with it! I'm going to try the same next year if "starting my own startup" doesn't gel.
When you say "fully remote", do you mean partially remote within USA? Or within your region but working from home?
Companies advertising "remote" or "fully remote" jobs are almost never looking for worldwide remote candidates. Your location and cost of living always play an important role in compensation.
Companies advertising "remote" or "fully remote" jobs are almost never looking for worldwide remote candidates. Your location and cost of living always play an important role in compensation.
I just scored my first 250k at a faang after being erm... stuck at a regular/non-prestigious company for 3 years.
There's basically a cottage industry of 'cracking the faang interview' so I don't feel like repeating it here. But basically any faang/adjacent will pay mid level engineers mid 200s.
There's basically a cottage industry of 'cracking the faang interview' so I don't feel like repeating it here. But basically any faang/adjacent will pay mid level engineers mid 200s.
Many commentators are suggesting exploring a freelance/contract role instead of a full-time job to make $250k.
Now, If we do the math you should be charging ~$125/hr working 8hrs 5 days a week to annually make 250k. You need to charge even more if you plan to take leaves.
My question is where do you find these generous clients? From what I've heard even the top paying freelancing sites like Toptal don't have clients that pay that much to senior developer (after deducing platform commission).
My question is where do you find these generous clients? From what I've heard even the top paying freelancing sites like Toptal don't have clients that pay that much to senior developer (after deducing platform commission).
In my experience (doing consulting/freelance work for a few years now), you have to get away from "freelance" kinds of jobs into "consulting". The terms are not well defined and there's a lot of overlap. But generally consulting seems to imply jobs where the client is relying on your judgment and you're responsible for the project as a whole. Freelancing is more about doing narrowly-scoped pieces of technical work.
Sites like Toptal mostly offer freelance type jobs, and there's a lot of price competition among freelancers.
For consulting work, clients don't think twice about paying $200/hour, even when the actual technical work is pretty straightforward. Higher rates are definitely possible if you have specialized skills and/or find the right clients. But you can really only find these jobs through personal connections.
Sites like Toptal mostly offer freelance type jobs, and there's a lot of price competition among freelancers.
For consulting work, clients don't think twice about paying $200/hour, even when the actual technical work is pretty straightforward. Higher rates are definitely possible if you have specialized skills and/or find the right clients. But you can really only find these jobs through personal connections.
if you want to make $250k, you need to charge much closer to $250/hr. Billing hours as a contractor or consultant is not the same as working hours as a FTE. You need to basically figure you’re going to average 20 hours/week to cover non-billable time, leave, taxes, etc.
The good news is that clients paying these rates will actually listen to you rather than treat you as a cog in a machine. (Another reason i prefer the term “consultant” to “contractor”)
The good news is that clients paying these rates will actually listen to you rather than treat you as a cog in a machine. (Another reason i prefer the term “consultant” to “contractor”)
Work in a more of a niche. Development in of itself is not a niche, and web development is but doesn’t pay as much freelance.
Setting up and configuring and managing firewalls and automation around them? $200+/hr. Setting up CI/CD pipelines, build processes, automated notifications, vulnerability scanning, and logging? $200+/hr.
Setting up and configuring and managing firewalls and automation around them? $200+/hr. Setting up CI/CD pipelines, build processes, automated notifications, vulnerability scanning, and logging? $200+/hr.
Here’s a cheap and easier trick: find two easy remote jobs each paying $125k. There’s your $250k a year. You don’t need any particularly distinguished resume.
With the right job responsibilities, this is doable for a software engineer. If you can offset the two jobs a bit by time zone it’s even better.
But you better hurry, once people catch on that this is possible the supply of developers can quickly increase overnight, leading to a fall in salaries from oversupply.
With the right job responsibilities, this is doable for a software engineer. If you can offset the two jobs a bit by time zone it’s even better.
But you better hurry, once people catch on that this is possible the supply of developers can quickly increase overnight, leading to a fall in salaries from oversupply.
I recently fired an engineer who was working 3 full time jobs all paying $130k+.
He ended up getting busted by all 3 companies at once, and all 3 fired him.
Hopefully he can find a new job that doesn’t check references. If you care about your reputation, or if you have the slightest moral compass, don’t do this.
He ended up getting busted by all 3 companies at once, and all 3 fired him.
Hopefully he can find a new job that doesn’t check references. If you care about your reputation, or if you have the slightest moral compass, don’t do this.
Three jobs is definitely pushing past what's realistic. 120 of 168 available hours in a week, hah!
But, the sort of industry pearl-clutching about holding 2 jobs is interesting, when employers think nothing of making you work extra hours without comp, or be "on call" without comp, intellectual property clauses for stuff done on personal time, non-compete clauses, etc.
But, the sort of industry pearl-clutching about holding 2 jobs is interesting, when employers think nothing of making you work extra hours without comp, or be "on call" without comp, intellectual property clauses for stuff done on personal time, non-compete clauses, etc.
I 100% disagree. You are allowed to maintain multiple full-time jobs in the United States unless you have entered into a contract that says otherwise.
My father worked two full-time jobs to raise my siblings and his reputation and moral compass is just fine. Many middle class families do it for survival.
There is no shame in working hard.
My father worked two full-time jobs to raise my siblings and his reputation and moral compass is just fine. Many middle class families do it for survival.
There is no shame in working hard.
Did your father work both jobs at the same time? I m sure answer is No. GP is talking abput a remote dev who was fooling 3 companies. A full time job means you are available for that company at that time. Not concurrently.
> A full time job means you are available for that company at that time.
No it doesn’t. That’s completely dependent on what’s in the employment contract.
No it doesn’t. That’s completely dependent on what’s in the employment contract.
Ok . When you get a full time tech/dev job next time, try asking the employer if you can work for another company concurrently. I am talking full time W2 jobs with benefits not contracting or freelancing.
The original suggestion was to work 2 jobs.
The post I replied to projected that (for some reason) into being a bad idea because of some story deceptive, poor-performing, contracting violating, three concurrent jobs.
I stand by my statement. It is not wrong to work two jobs. That was the original claim despite what this other guy wanted to make it about.
The post I replied to projected that (for some reason) into being a bad idea because of some story deceptive, poor-performing, contracting violating, three concurrent jobs.
I stand by my statement. It is not wrong to work two jobs. That was the original claim despite what this other guy wanted to make it about.
I'm "this other guy" you reference above. For what it's worth, even if he were working only 2 jobs rather than 3, that would have still broken our ability to trust him with any meaningful work. From an HR perspective, if someone lies about having a 2nd job, what else are the capable of lying about?
> It is not wrong to work two jobs.
2 jobs vs. 3 jobs doesn't make much of a difference. It is wrong to work 2 jobs if you explicitly tell each company that you are their sole employer.
The thing I don't understand is if someone really wants to work 2 or 3 jobs... why not do it by looking for 1099 contract work rather than chasing W2 roles?
> It is not wrong to work two jobs.
2 jobs vs. 3 jobs doesn't make much of a difference. It is wrong to work 2 jobs if you explicitly tell each company that you are their sole employer.
The thing I don't understand is if someone really wants to work 2 or 3 jobs... why not do it by looking for 1099 contract work rather than chasing W2 roles?
Yeah, I am not doubting you did the right job firing this guy. But you brought the wrong anecdote to this debate.
The original idea was about a 2nd job. Thats all. You are saying that shows bad reputation and moral compass and then trying to shoe horn in the idea that people with multiple jobs are liars and poor performers.
Have you ever had to work two jobs? As someone that did and whose parents also did, I dont equate it with the worst in people. You do. I think that says something about the classes we each grew up in.
The original idea was about a 2nd job. Thats all. You are saying that shows bad reputation and moral compass and then trying to shoe horn in the idea that people with multiple jobs are liars and poor performers.
Have you ever had to work two jobs? As someone that did and whose parents also did, I dont equate it with the worst in people. You do. I think that says something about the classes we each grew up in.
Were you and your parents working 2 jobs on non-conflicting schedules?
I think is perfectly acceptable to work 6-2pm and 2pm-8pm for 2 employers.
But I don’t think it’s ethical to work 2 jobs where the hours are overlapping not on a staggered schedule.
> Have you ever had to work two jobs
Yes, when starting my startup. I woke up at 5am, worked until 9am on my startup, went to my day job and worked a full 8 hours, then came home and worked 6-10pm on the startup. After a couple weeks doing this, I let the CEO of my day job know, and requested they sign a contract saying anything I develop outside of regular business hours is owned by me and not my day job. They approved and signed the agreement. I left to build the startup full time 9 months later.
The key here is just being honest and transparent. You can work 2 jobs, that alone isn’t the problem, the problem is working 2 jobs and going to great lengths hiding it from your employers, calling out sick for fake doctor appointments, fabricating stories as to why you aren’t getting your work done, claiming you have fake medical conditions that prevent you from joining meetings.
The sad part is a few bad apples will ruin it for the rest of us. Remote is easy to abuse. The more it’s abused, the less likely companies are to continue embracing WFH post-COVID. The more it’s abused, the more companies will be compelled to do things like install remote monitoring software, etc.
> the classes we each grew up in
Not that it’s relevant, but I grew up with parents who wouldn’t even pay for a $25/mo gym membership, and told me to go find a job. Same with buying my first car as a teenager and paying gas/insurance. Thank god I dropped out of private college after 3 semesters, all of my loans were in my name, no help from the parents.
I think is perfectly acceptable to work 6-2pm and 2pm-8pm for 2 employers.
But I don’t think it’s ethical to work 2 jobs where the hours are overlapping not on a staggered schedule.
> Have you ever had to work two jobs
Yes, when starting my startup. I woke up at 5am, worked until 9am on my startup, went to my day job and worked a full 8 hours, then came home and worked 6-10pm on the startup. After a couple weeks doing this, I let the CEO of my day job know, and requested they sign a contract saying anything I develop outside of regular business hours is owned by me and not my day job. They approved and signed the agreement. I left to build the startup full time 9 months later.
The key here is just being honest and transparent. You can work 2 jobs, that alone isn’t the problem, the problem is working 2 jobs and going to great lengths hiding it from your employers, calling out sick for fake doctor appointments, fabricating stories as to why you aren’t getting your work done, claiming you have fake medical conditions that prevent you from joining meetings.
The sad part is a few bad apples will ruin it for the rest of us. Remote is easy to abuse. The more it’s abused, the less likely companies are to continue embracing WFH post-COVID. The more it’s abused, the more companies will be compelled to do things like install remote monitoring software, etc.
> the classes we each grew up in
Not that it’s relevant, but I grew up with parents who wouldn’t even pay for a $25/mo gym membership, and told me to go find a job. Same with buying my first car as a teenager and paying gas/insurance. Thank god I dropped out of private college after 3 semesters, all of my loans were in my name, no help from the parents.
This is a great story. So when the original poster suggested working 2 jobs, you didn't tell the story about how you worked two jobs to build your own business and how it is a great idea that brought you success, you instead told the story about how you fired a guy that worked two+ jobs.
I guess that blows my mind, you have a great origin story. It seems we agree on more than I realize, we just assumed very different things.
Congrats on all the success you have had with starting your own business and the hard work it took to make it.
You've helped me to reflect on my own biases with your posts and replies.
I guess that blows my mind, you have a great origin story. It seems we agree on more than I realize, we just assumed very different things.
Congrats on all the success you have had with starting your own business and the hard work it took to make it.
You've helped me to reflect on my own biases with your posts and replies.
> you worked two jobs to build your own business and how it is a great idea that brought you success, you instead told the story about how you fired a guy that worked two+ jobs
The take away that I’m trying to communicate (and clearly not doing a good job at) is pretty simple: have integrity, be honest, and act ethically.
Avoid exploiting, lying, and misleading.
If your employer is cool with you working multiple jobs and you’re honest about it with everyone involved, by all means, go for it!
Just my opinion. Pretty simple. I’m just advocating for people to act ethically.
I mean just read this blog post on Overemployed, having been on the other end of that as an employer, it’s infuriating seeing people jeopardizing their whole career and reputation for a few extra bucks: https://overemployed.com/overemployed-journal-week-2-elhapo8...
The take away that I’m trying to communicate (and clearly not doing a good job at) is pretty simple: have integrity, be honest, and act ethically.
Avoid exploiting, lying, and misleading.
If your employer is cool with you working multiple jobs and you’re honest about it with everyone involved, by all means, go for it!
Just my opinion. Pretty simple. I’m just advocating for people to act ethically.
I mean just read this blog post on Overemployed, having been on the other end of that as an employer, it’s infuriating seeing people jeopardizing their whole career and reputation for a few extra bucks: https://overemployed.com/overemployed-journal-week-2-elhapo8...
But you used your father as an example and my question is if your father worked for both at the same time. That matters a lot. Your comparison is not appropriate because there is a huge difference between working a job and then working another job at a totally shift/time than working 2 remote jobs concurrently where you are supposed to be available for both.
My comparison is comparable because all the original post said was to work 2 jobs. This other post comes in and tries to equate working two jobs with contract violation.
No - my dad worked one job during the day and the other at night. Why would you by default assume the worst in people? The original post was always about two jobs. Most people that work two jobs do so legally and ethically.
What on Earth are you all on about adding all these extra conditions to prove the original poster wrong. He never said - get two jobs, work them at the same, make sure this violates your contract, do a poor job, and lie about it.
You all trying to poison the water of this topic by equating it to something else entirely.
No - my dad worked one job during the day and the other at night. Why would you by default assume the worst in people? The original post was always about two jobs. Most people that work two jobs do so legally and ethically.
What on Earth are you all on about adding all these extra conditions to prove the original poster wrong. He never said - get two jobs, work them at the same, make sure this violates your contract, do a poor job, and lie about it.
You all trying to poison the water of this topic by equating it to something else entirely.
Read a few posts on this blog and you might start to understand why people assume the worst: https://overemployed.com/
You fired a crap employee putting out bad work.
If I’m working multiple jobs yet still finishing my work and probably even doing better than some of the employees working for the company exclusively, I doubt you would be so quick to fire me.
It’s no ones fucking business how many jobs I work. Focus on results. This is the remote work equivalent of on-site managers who want to see asses in chairs.
If I’m working multiple jobs yet still finishing my work and probably even doing better than some of the employees working for the company exclusively, I doubt you would be so quick to fire me.
It’s no ones fucking business how many jobs I work. Focus on results. This is the remote work equivalent of on-site managers who want to see asses in chairs.
I disagree with this wholeheartedly. If you are constantly doing the work of multiple devs, you get zero reward in this industry.
Instead, put that extra focus into side work and side projects. If you’re good enough you can even be honest with people. When taking on a contract you can say “I have another commitment and will be working between X and X on X days for you” as long as you get all the work done for your primary job it’s not immoral.
Instead, put that extra focus into side work and side projects. If you’re good enough you can even be honest with people. When taking on a contract you can say “I have another commitment and will be working between X and X on X days for you” as long as you get all the work done for your primary job it’s not immoral.
Was his work performance suffering as a result? If not, what is the actual issue here?
Yes.
His output was horrendous. I would have fired him anyway based just on that, but discovering he had multiple jobs expedited the firing (and clearly explained why his output was so poor).
His output was horrendous. I would have fired him anyway based just on that, but discovering he had multiple jobs expedited the firing (and clearly explained why his output was so poor).
I’m curious how you found out he had multiple jobs? I agree 100% that someone should get fired if they aren’t doing the work. But it is typically illegal to fire someone just for moonlighting unless it is in their contract.
Fair enough. Just of curiosity, would you have fired him if his performance hadn't suffered?
If I found out about it, yes, he'd be gone immediately even if he were our #1 engineer.
It's impossible to trust someone with AWS production keys and access to customer data when they lie to you about something as simple as who they work for. People secretly working multiple jobs are looking for an easy way to make a lot of money. If it's within their ability to secretly work 2 jobs, is it also in their ability to download proprietary company info and sell it to a competitor?
It's impossible to trust someone with AWS production keys and access to customer data when they lie to you about something as simple as who they work for. People secretly working multiple jobs are looking for an easy way to make a lot of money. If it's within their ability to secretly work 2 jobs, is it also in their ability to download proprietary company info and sell it to a competitor?
But there's no legal issue with working multiple jobs in the US.
Most employment agreements pay for 40 hours per week.
What employees do with the rest of their time is none of the employer's business.
They could be spending all that time driving an Uber, developing an open-source project, do contract/consultant work for a friend's startup, or just play video games.
As long as the work is getting done, the employer has no recourse unless it gets outright stipulated in the actual contract.
Your conflating of "working two software engineering jobs" and "stealing company data and selling it" doesn't make logical sense.
Working multiple jobs is not an easy way to make a lot of money. It takes time and effort.
Measuring employee productivity over "hours in chair" is the way to go.
Most employment agreements pay for 40 hours per week.
What employees do with the rest of their time is none of the employer's business.
They could be spending all that time driving an Uber, developing an open-source project, do contract/consultant work for a friend's startup, or just play video games.
As long as the work is getting done, the employer has no recourse unless it gets outright stipulated in the actual contract.
Your conflating of "working two software engineering jobs" and "stealing company data and selling it" doesn't make logical sense.
Working multiple jobs is not an easy way to make a lot of money. It takes time and effort.
Measuring employee productivity over "hours in chair" is the way to go.
It doesn’t matter what’s legal, it matters what the company you work for thinks. Anything else is over analyzing the situation.
The bottom line is working for two companies full time concurrently is abnormal and it’s not a stretch to imagine you’re not getting 100% of your employee while they juggle two jobs.
I’d also fire the report if I discovered them working two jobs.
The bottom line is working for two companies full time concurrently is abnormal and it’s not a stretch to imagine you’re not getting 100% of your employee while they juggle two jobs.
I’d also fire the report if I discovered them working two jobs.
Well as long as their other work is never directly competing with the company, and the employee is always getting their work done, I don't see an issue with employees doing side-hustles.
Whether that's developing open-source projects, running a YouTube channel or working 40 hours a week for another team.
If they are competing with the company or not getting a reasonable amount of work consistently done, then that would be an issue.
Whether that's developing open-source projects, running a YouTube channel or working 40 hours a week for another team.
If they are competing with the company or not getting a reasonable amount of work consistently done, then that would be an issue.
Why did it expedite the firing? Was he working for a competitor?
obviously they lied about their time commitment in working hours, and it's not about the number of hours, it's about honesty and their lack of commitment as promised.
This. I can't trust an engineer with our production AWS keys when they aren't honest about who they work for. (managing AWS infrastructure was part of his job description, and you need to be trustworthy to have AWS level access to customer data)
Usually in the fine print of signing on to become a full time employee, there are clauses to ensure you are not working for anyone else unless approved by company.
How did you find him out? Just curious since if someone was that determined they would probably go to extra lengths (i.e. different physical computers per job, etc) to conceal it.
1. He took his LinkedIn down after being hired. You can't have a LinkedIn when you have 3 jobs.
2. His output was horrible. He was an obviously a good senior level developer. But it would take him a week to do something a -junior- engineer couple do in 2 days.
3. Lots of strange and unexpected absences.
4. On a number of occasions I asked how he solved a problem at a prior company, and he spoke about the company in present tense rather than past tense. (A slip up on his part)
There were people a few other signs that were more subtle than the ones above... but ultimately I became suspicious about how such a good engineer's output was so bad, and had a theory he had multiple jobs. So I simply emailed his prior employer to make sure they were aware that he had resigned to work for our company. The CEO of his prior company (where he had been for 5+ years) was shocked to find out he worked for us.
The 3rd company he found through YC Work at a Startup, and through that uncovered he had been applying for a 3rd job and actually accepted an offer from one of them and had begun work.
There are whole blogs dedicated to how to pull this scam off (google it). But morals aside, I wouldn't recommend it simply because the stress of juggling remote meetings, standups, sprints between 3 companies is not easy.
2. His output was horrible. He was an obviously a good senior level developer. But it would take him a week to do something a -junior- engineer couple do in 2 days.
3. Lots of strange and unexpected absences.
4. On a number of occasions I asked how he solved a problem at a prior company, and he spoke about the company in present tense rather than past tense. (A slip up on his part)
There were people a few other signs that were more subtle than the ones above... but ultimately I became suspicious about how such a good engineer's output was so bad, and had a theory he had multiple jobs. So I simply emailed his prior employer to make sure they were aware that he had resigned to work for our company. The CEO of his prior company (where he had been for 5+ years) was shocked to find out he worked for us.
The 3rd company he found through YC Work at a Startup, and through that uncovered he had been applying for a 3rd job and actually accepted an offer from one of them and had begun work.
There are whole blogs dedicated to how to pull this scam off (google it). But morals aside, I wouldn't recommend it simply because the stress of juggling remote meetings, standups, sprints between 3 companies is not easy.
People like him are a reason why employers have to be more careful when hiring remote.
And a reason why it's going to be hard to maintain that remote paradise developers are hoping.
Laws are generally not written for the average, decent person, but to stop the degenerates who would try to murder, destroy, etc, and wouldn't be punished otherwise.
People cheat on remote tests and interviews, for example.
Laws are generally not written for the average, decent person, but to stop the degenerates who would try to murder, destroy, etc, and wouldn't be punished otherwise.
People cheat on remote tests and interviews, for example.
We just need to switch to measuring output.
The industry is full of engineers working 9-5 then going home and spending 4 hours on a side-hustle or open-source project (plus another 10 hours on Saturday/Sunday).
Those people can hold down two 40 hour a week software engineering positions. Timezone shifted, yes, but they can get their work done.
The industry is full of engineers working 9-5 then going home and spending 4 hours on a side-hustle or open-source project (plus another 10 hours on Saturday/Sunday).
Those people can hold down two 40 hour a week software engineering positions. Timezone shifted, yes, but they can get their work done.
It’s very easy to find this out. Just about any decent manager can sense it and if they care enough will follow through.
I doubt anyone will reveal the how because it is becoming a cat and mouse game in my organization.
I doubt anyone will reveal the how because it is becoming a cat and mouse game in my organization.
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Note sure why this is getting down voted. Freelancers and contractors work multiple client jobs all the time. Low wage workers work multiple 'full time' jobs all the time. Are FT software engineers special?
FT in the software industry sets an expectation of full-time availability. Even if you have a light job that only takes a few hours a day, part of the reason we get away with that is knowing that if something blows up (Log4Shell being a perfect recent example), we are available to step up and spend the time needed to handle it. If you have 2 or 3 jobs, you do not have that availability.
This differs from low-wage jobs in other industries, where you are paid for your time on your shift, and then have zero expectations of your time outside of your assigned shifts.
This differs from low-wage jobs in other industries, where you are paid for your time on your shift, and then have zero expectations of your time outside of your assigned shifts.
Yes. If you want to work multiple jobs, that’s what contracting / consulting is for.
I don’t think you can compare engineers to a struggling single parent working 2 jobs at minimum wage. The former signs contracts saying they won’t work for other companies concurrently, the latter likely doesn’t.
If you want multiple jobs, simply work as a 1099 contractor. It’s that simple.
I don’t think you can compare engineers to a struggling single parent working 2 jobs at minimum wage. The former signs contracts saying they won’t work for other companies concurrently, the latter likely doesn’t.
If you want multiple jobs, simply work as a 1099 contractor. It’s that simple.
This strikes me as nonsense. There seems to be an uncritical acceptance of a definition of FT software engineering responsibilities here.
As an exempt, salaried employee you are being paid for work, not time. If you can manage to do the work for two employers then they have no cause to complain and you've earned your pay.
If you fail to do the assigned work or are unavailable for sync meetings (probably the hardest part of this arrangement) then they can fire you.
Any parent who is also a FT software engineer has two full time jobs, they just don't get paid for one of them. Cultural inertia around what you 'owe' your employer is not to the benefit of employees.
In this situation, where there are plenty of low level jobs that pay $125k that require 4 hours or less of actual coding time per day, working two of those jobs seems like a totally viable option. As others have pointed out you have to avoid employers that try to prevent you from working more than one job, but there are plenty of those (personal experience) so this, again, seems like a pretty good option.
As an exempt, salaried employee you are being paid for work, not time. If you can manage to do the work for two employers then they have no cause to complain and you've earned your pay.
If you fail to do the assigned work or are unavailable for sync meetings (probably the hardest part of this arrangement) then they can fire you.
Any parent who is also a FT software engineer has two full time jobs, they just don't get paid for one of them. Cultural inertia around what you 'owe' your employer is not to the benefit of employees.
In this situation, where there are plenty of low level jobs that pay $125k that require 4 hours or less of actual coding time per day, working two of those jobs seems like a totally viable option. As others have pointed out you have to avoid employers that try to prevent you from working more than one job, but there are plenty of those (personal experience) so this, again, seems like a pretty good option.
> The former signs contracts saying they won’t work for other companies concurrently, the latter likely doesn’t.
Well, that's where you're mistaken: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/29/opinion/noncompete-agreem...
Well, that's where you're mistaken: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/29/opinion/noncompete-agreem...
Don't those workers working multiple 'full time' jobs usually have temp contracts paid by hour or service?
I haven't seen a full-time contract that would allow me to take other such commitments from other companies. Whereas when I was a freelancer I had to demonstrate that I have at least 3 roughly equal sized clients to be legally recognized as such.
I haven't seen a full-time contract that would allow me to take other such commitments from other companies. Whereas when I was a freelancer I had to demonstrate that I have at least 3 roughly equal sized clients to be legally recognized as such.
Many (most?) work contracts mention that you can't just take another job without at least informing and asking permission from your current employer, who would most likely say no, especially if it's another software engineering job.
This is actually great advice, though Im very bad at shitty work, i need hyperfocus and challenging task to feel good about the job :(
But I wonder if there are companies who understand that 250k developer is not even close to 2 125k developers, but can be much much more valuable asset with proper management.
But I wonder if there are companies who understand that 250k developer is not even close to 2 125k developers, but can be much much more valuable asset with proper management.
Well, sure, but this line of thinking suggests you’re worth more than double what someone else is at the same job.
What makes you think this is so?
What makes you think this is so?
Everyone has their unique value to a company. That could range from large expertise with certain libraries/type of problems to deep knowledge of an industry or even your network (more applicable to sales/leadership). Not all developers do the same exact job and I think we can universally agree that some work performed is more valuable to a company than others.
100% agree. All I’m saying is that to get double the salary from someone not obligated to pay it would mean that you’d need to be able to convincingly answer that question first.
It’s going to be a massive elephant in the room before the topic of money is even raised.
It’s going to be a massive elephant in the room before the topic of money is even raised.
Under market capitalism, you're "worth" whatever you can convince somebody to pay you.
Isn’t this equivalent to freelancing? Do it legit and be a freelance dev/consultant and earn your 250k+
You need to find companies who pay enough. 99% of recruiters, jobs on LinkedIn are not paying enough, you need to network, find job opportunities through friends. Use your references from previous jobs. Join tech communities and make friends / show your technical prowess. Most of the jobs I accepted in my career were via word of mouth and with ex coworkers inside the company to put a good word.
I'm living in Europe, working for a European company and pulling 200k$ in base salary with no equity (as a contractor in a different country, treated like an employee, but no sick pay or paid holidays) + some other online businesses netting some variable amounts. I live in a low cost and low tax location - so I can pocket roughly 85% of the profits. One way that really helped me to negotiate higher salary is to have recurring revenue on the side which could support my lifestyle. I'm transparent about that with employers and they know I'm running some side businesses.
Given you're already making a significant amount of money I would focus on optimising taxes / location and then focusing on creating other passive / semi passive revenue streams.
I'm living in Europe, working for a European company and pulling 200k$ in base salary with no equity (as a contractor in a different country, treated like an employee, but no sick pay or paid holidays) + some other online businesses netting some variable amounts. I live in a low cost and low tax location - so I can pocket roughly 85% of the profits. One way that really helped me to negotiate higher salary is to have recurring revenue on the side which could support my lifestyle. I'm transparent about that with employers and they know I'm running some side businesses.
Given you're already making a significant amount of money I would focus on optimising taxes / location and then focusing on creating other passive / semi passive revenue streams.
I found this article to be pretty enlightening about the nature of of the software engineering job market, which should help you figure out what companies can afford expensive developers.
https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala...
If you're okay with a little risk, it's probably easier to join a remote series S-ish startup where you get a solid base salary (130k-180k based on your experience) and where the stock could be worth anything from 0k/yr to $100k+ per year. I would highly recommend only joining these types of companies if they have technical founders who have worked in BigTech and understand the value of high quality engineers and maintaining a good engineering culture (aka blameless post mortems, predictable deadlines, no-overworking, etc.)
https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala...
If you're okay with a little risk, it's probably easier to join a remote series S-ish startup where you get a solid base salary (130k-180k based on your experience) and where the stock could be worth anything from 0k/yr to $100k+ per year. I would highly recommend only joining these types of companies if they have technical founders who have worked in BigTech and understand the value of high quality engineers and maintaining a good engineering culture (aka blameless post mortems, predictable deadlines, no-overworking, etc.)
Consulting for me; I work for a large firm but bonuses put me well over $250k. Most of my job is also not tech; I largely manage development teams these days. As a pure engineer, you should be looking at product companies selling SaaS.
To command that level of salary and industry, you need to have at least 10 years experience, with half of that at a “digital economy” product company. If you’re not at a larger product company working on production systems, your title will probably be a level below where you’re at now (so expect to come in making about what you do now, albeit with a higher ceiling for comp and promotions).
Startups aren’t necessarily the best entryway either. The job of working at a startup is very different from working on a relatively mature codebase. It takes a different mindset and a much more methodical approach. Less “move fast and break things” and more “readable code, complete documentation, good tests”.
To command that level of salary and industry, you need to have at least 10 years experience, with half of that at a “digital economy” product company. If you’re not at a larger product company working on production systems, your title will probably be a level below where you’re at now (so expect to come in making about what you do now, albeit with a higher ceiling for comp and promotions).
Startups aren’t necessarily the best entryway either. The job of working at a startup is very different from working on a relatively mature codebase. It takes a different mindset and a much more methodical approach. Less “move fast and break things” and more “readable code, complete documentation, good tests”.
There is only one thing that will affect your salary - it's what you are able to get at other companies. So the best strategy is to have several companies outbid each other. When you search for jobs, don't just get an offer from one job, try to get an offer from at least 10 jobs.
You can compare the company with yourself trying to buy an house: The house is on sale for $140 (the seller is the developer). If there is only one bidder, you could even buy the house for $130 (you are the only company to give an offer to the developer), but if there are 10 bidders, you will probably end up buying (hiring) the house (developer) for $250.
It's a matter of how desperate the employer are. If they already have many developers - lookup their salary and if it's low they are not desperate enough, eg. they already have a stream of cheap talent.
You can compare the company with yourself trying to buy an house: The house is on sale for $140 (the seller is the developer). If there is only one bidder, you could even buy the house for $130 (you are the only company to give an offer to the developer), but if there are 10 bidders, you will probably end up buying (hiring) the house (developer) for $250.
It's a matter of how desperate the employer are. If they already have many developers - lookup their salary and if it's low they are not desperate enough, eg. they already have a stream of cheap talent.
Almost every large tech company now has fully remote tech roles for senior developers. $250k total comp is average for someone w 4-8 years experience.
You just need to be good in coding, data structures and system design - and be able to show this in the interview - achievable with some practice.
You just need to be good in coding, data structures and system design - and be able to show this in the interview - achievable with some practice.
What do you consider large tech companies? I find that number for only 4-8 yrs experience to be much higher than most people see even with a total comp perspective. Just look around on the job boards or like SO - Not seeing numbers like that unless you're up there in mgmt levels.
You mean FAANG or just general “tech” companies that are working on user software stuff?
Not just FAANG. Public and large private cos have caught up.
As a salesman, maybe… you may even be able to land a few appointments and treat them all as a boutique. As a developer, a marginal chance exists in the fintech, if you are able as a quant or as a janitor for very exotic and often old codebases.
If you want a base salary that high, move into Product Management or Sales/Sales Engineering. Maybe Data Analytics/Engineering if you're really good at math and find the right company.
Or, as others have said, start your own company.
Or, as others have said, start your own company.
I agree with this and have experience with the Sales Engineering side of it. Any enterprise software company needs a field sales team with technical people to back up the sales reps. Sales Engineers or Solution Architects own the "technical close" of a deal. Once the customer says your technology solves their problems and they're not looking at any competitors, your job is done. Rarely do you have to do any salesy activity like negotiating contracts, "closing deals", cold calling etc.
You give demos, proof of concepts, and talk shop with your customers. Most of it can be done remotely, but for important customers, you travel in your territory. As long as you're close to an airport, you're good.
Base + Commission can be easily $250k plus equity.
You give demos, proof of concepts, and talk shop with your customers. Most of it can be done remotely, but for important customers, you travel in your territory. As long as you're close to an airport, you're good.
Base + Commission can be easily $250k plus equity.
What exactly is sales engineering? I have never understood this term or what the work these people do is. To be fair I haven't spent much time looking into it but any insight you have is appreciated
It goes by a lot of names (sales consulting, solution engineering, sales engineering, etc) but sales engineer is probably the best literal descriptor: basically your job is to go to prospective customers and engage their engineers/architects and work with them to solve their problems using your company’s software or techniques. If you do a good job, the prospect signs up and you make a commission. Engagements vary- you might just be presenting slides, or you may be writing code to implement proofs of concept. Usually report to sales, which can be good or bad depending on sales culture at your company.
It can be a lot of pressure since it is a customer facing role and requires being able to solve technical problems on your feet (not unlike a whiteboard interview at times). Requires you to learn quickly (may have to consult on software that hasn’t been released yet and has no documentation, better be good at reading code and asking questions). Also often requires a lot of travel, hence remote okay.
If you’re a sociable engineer who likes variety and to travel, it’s definitely a good role to check out. If you meet your commission targets you will probably make significantly more than you would in a strictly salaried engineering role. Can be really flexible since work is largely driven by customer demand, just be prepared for some really intense weeks and late nights preparing for critical engagements.
It can be a lot of pressure since it is a customer facing role and requires being able to solve technical problems on your feet (not unlike a whiteboard interview at times). Requires you to learn quickly (may have to consult on software that hasn’t been released yet and has no documentation, better be good at reading code and asking questions). Also often requires a lot of travel, hence remote okay.
If you’re a sociable engineer who likes variety and to travel, it’s definitely a good role to check out. If you meet your commission targets you will probably make significantly more than you would in a strictly salaried engineering role. Can be really flexible since work is largely driven by customer demand, just be prepared for some really intense weeks and late nights preparing for critical engagements.
In my limited (2 years) experience, the pre-sales engineer, "solution architect" is someone who knows the product and about 85% of the client's environment and requirements. Their job is to say "Our product can meet all your requirements easily. I could code it up in a week." The sales staff moves in and gets the signature, collects the bonus and they and the pre-sales engineers spend the next 5 days on a private beach in the Caribbean. Meanwhile the company's Customer Consulting group sends in a developer and tells them they have a week to understand the requirements and get the thing designed, built, implemented, tested and signed off by the client. By the 2nd day on-site, the developer discovers a customer requirement missed by the pre-sales engineer that will require at least 3 weeks to implement correctly. The developer's boss says "fuck correct and fuck maintainable. Just make it work good enough so they'll let you leave. We're only charging them for a week of consulting". The developer spends 20 hours a day getting something working then leaves the customer with a fragile hodge-podge that mostly works with ideal data as long as the users and IT dept don't do anything unexpected. The developer gets home at 3 am Saturday, does his or her laundry then on Sunday afternoon gets on a plane headed for the next poor schmuck who bought the pre-sales BS.
So, I would describe that as a dysfunctional sales team. I've worked at everything from a 40-person startup to companies with over 100,000 employees. The sales engineers on the teams have been the ones with their hands dirty throughout the entire deal lifecycle, and the first ones on call in the weeks following going live to bug hunt.
An alternative scalable way is to switch from a full time job to becoming a freelancer/consultant and set your own rates.
In order to be able to land high paying projects as a consultant, you would need to showcase your skills somehow (open source, portfolio, etc...). This can happen later on though and as a start the easiest way would be to ask for referrals and make it known to your network that you're looking for consulting opportunities.
Making this transition though would imply that you'll need to think about it as a business instead of a job, and start cultivating new skills i.e. communication, marketing, sales, etc...
In order to be able to land high paying projects as a consultant, you would need to showcase your skills somehow (open source, portfolio, etc...). This can happen later on though and as a start the easiest way would be to ask for referrals and make it known to your network that you're looking for consulting opportunities.
Making this transition though would imply that you'll need to think about it as a business instead of a job, and start cultivating new skills i.e. communication, marketing, sales, etc...
This.
Freelancing is a good option.
250k a year is 20k a month, for 12 months a year.
20k a month is 1k a day, for 20 work days a month.
How to make 1k a day? Write 2 technical articles.
Btw. as a freelancer you could end up paying less taxes, because more things are deductible. This could mean, you can end up with the same money after taxes without making 250k a year.
Freelancing is a good option.
250k a year is 20k a month, for 12 months a year.
20k a month is 1k a day, for 20 work days a month.
How to make 1k a day? Write 2 technical articles.
Btw. as a freelancer you could end up paying less taxes, because more things are deductible. This could mean, you can end up with the same money after taxes without making 250k a year.
> Write 2 technical articles.
How do you monetize technical articles at the rate of $1k / article ? Most firms wont pay that much.
How do you monetize technical articles at the rate of $1k / article ? Most firms wont pay that much.
Freelance writing these days is not very lucrative. Personally I won't touch it for less than $1/word (so about $1K/article = ~ 1 day). Which, if you do the math and account for all the unpaid time needed to be in a position to write a $1K article still isn't a lot of money.
The technical articles can serve as highly effective ads to lure your potential customers. The kind of technical writing that will leave no doubt in the minds of your readers that you demonstrate deep expertise in the technologies you are an expert in.
Here's an example https://burke.services/segment.html taken from https://burke.services/
Here's an example https://burke.services/segment.html taken from https://burke.services/
This is generally true of writing in tech whether articles or books. You can usually make more as a side effect (or as part of a salaried position) writing than you ever will with someone paying you directly.
This.
If I write an article that shows how your SaaS integrates with <POPULAR_SERVICE_OR_FRAMEWORK> then this is worth much more than $500.
If I write an article that shows how your SaaS integrates with <POPULAR_SERVICE_OR_FRAMEWORK> then this is worth much more than $500.
$1k / 2 articles.
> How to make 1k a day? Write 2 technical articles.
The going rate for a technical article written in ~4 hours is $500? That blows my mind. I'm not saying it doesn't happen -- I've only done non-technical articles -- but that it's hard for me to imagine it being profitable for the publication.
800-1000 words produced from scratch in 4 hours, including research, editing, and graphics, is going to be garbage one step above what you'd find in a content farm. The same derived with minor modifications from an existing article will be little better than scraped content.
The going rate for a technical article written in ~4 hours is $500? That blows my mind. I'm not saying it doesn't happen -- I've only done non-technical articles -- but that it's hard for me to imagine it being profitable for the publication.
800-1000 words produced from scratch in 4 hours, including research, editing, and graphics, is going to be garbage one step above what you'd find in a content farm. The same derived with minor modifications from an existing article will be little better than scraped content.
As someone who does a fair bit of writing, I'd say a 1,000 word article is more like 1-2 days depending on research (including perhaps attending an event/interviews), administrivia, editing, procrastination, etc.--and can certainly take more than that. Not that I'm generally working freelance, but I'd certainly expect around $1K as the bare minimum. Which, if you do the calculation, probably only translates to about $100K/year best case before expenses, etc.
And, yes, a lot of publications pay less than that which is why you see a lot of writers with technical knowledge working for product companies doing content marketing and related.
And, yes, a lot of publications pay less than that which is why you see a lot of writers with technical knowledge working for product companies doing content marketing and related.
Yes.
It's also a question of expectations.
I have many clients who publish anything I write without any questions.
It's also a question of expectations.
I have many clients who publish anything I write without any questions.
Clients often approach be because they've read my articles, which means they have a rough feeling about my skillset.
If they offer me to write an article about something I already know, I don't have to do much research.
Writing 1k words takes around 1h if the outline is good, so I have 2-3h hours time to do research about things I already know.
If they offer me to write an article about something I already know, I don't have to do much research.
Writing 1k words takes around 1h if the outline is good, so I have 2-3h hours time to do research about things I already know.
A lot of companies now do consulting in W2. Is it still the same in terms of favorable taxes as c2c or 1099?
W2 means you are an employee, so no, the tax situation will be different.
Technically true. But I do consulting and some agencies put me on w2 with no FT benefits at all. https://www.accountingtools.com/articles/what-is-a-w-2-contr...
> Btw. as a freelancer you could end up paying less taxes, because more things are deductible.
But you're also paying a lot more in base taxes and lose out on a bunch of bottom line income. I've been a freelance worker for ~20 years and recently switched to a full time position to mix it up.
Your employer pays half of your social security taxes but as a contractor worker you need to pay both ends, that translates to about an extra 7% in taxes. On $235,000 income (let's say you wrote off a total of $15,000 in the year) that's an extra $16,450 in taxes.
Your employer usually matches 3-4% of your salary into a 401k which is yours without any vesting period. On a 250k salary that would be $7,500 at 3%.
Your employer usually pays your health insurance. The absolute bottom of the barrel worst insurance you can get will cost you around $450 / month if you're a contract worker or $5,400 a year. There were even years (2016-2017 I think) where if you didn't purchase your own insurance you ended up paying thousands of dollars in fines.
Your employer may contribute to a number of nice to haves like tax free stipends for internet / phone bills as a remote worker. Let's call that $1,500 a year for everything combined (some of which is direct money in your pocket and some are services you might have access to).
So in the end being self employed results in paying an extra $16,450 in taxes and you net lose $14,400. That's a total of about 30k less. You also have the extra burden of filing quarterly taxes or you pay fines. You'll likely end up having to pay for an accountant too which will be another $500+ / year (not included in the above totals).
Yes, as a freelancer you can deduct a portion of your home office as business rent, computer supplies and other things you need to do your job but for a remote worker there's really not as many deductions as you may think.
I'm not saying doing contract work or being self employed is bad but I think it's important to be aware of these extra costs and things to think about.
There are some tax perks of being self employed too, like being able to fund a SEP account. For most self employed folks you can put 20% of your income or up to 58k in 2021 into this account. It's somewhat comparable to a 401k in the sense that it's a tax deferred account, AKA any amount you put into there will be taken off your income taxes today and you will pay taxes when you start withdrawing the money at about 60 years old based on whatever your income is then.
So in our example above if you had 250k income, wrote off 15k and then maxed out your 20% into a SEP for another 47k you'd really pay income tax on 188k. Keep in mind as a salary worker you'd have 19.5k into a 401k so it's mainly a benefit of about 27.5k of extra income that you're tax deferring.
Note: I'm not an accountant and I might be calculating things incorrectly but it's in the ballpark of a few percent.
But you're also paying a lot more in base taxes and lose out on a bunch of bottom line income. I've been a freelance worker for ~20 years and recently switched to a full time position to mix it up.
Your employer pays half of your social security taxes but as a contractor worker you need to pay both ends, that translates to about an extra 7% in taxes. On $235,000 income (let's say you wrote off a total of $15,000 in the year) that's an extra $16,450 in taxes.
Your employer usually matches 3-4% of your salary into a 401k which is yours without any vesting period. On a 250k salary that would be $7,500 at 3%.
Your employer usually pays your health insurance. The absolute bottom of the barrel worst insurance you can get will cost you around $450 / month if you're a contract worker or $5,400 a year. There were even years (2016-2017 I think) where if you didn't purchase your own insurance you ended up paying thousands of dollars in fines.
Your employer may contribute to a number of nice to haves like tax free stipends for internet / phone bills as a remote worker. Let's call that $1,500 a year for everything combined (some of which is direct money in your pocket and some are services you might have access to).
So in the end being self employed results in paying an extra $16,450 in taxes and you net lose $14,400. That's a total of about 30k less. You also have the extra burden of filing quarterly taxes or you pay fines. You'll likely end up having to pay for an accountant too which will be another $500+ / year (not included in the above totals).
Yes, as a freelancer you can deduct a portion of your home office as business rent, computer supplies and other things you need to do your job but for a remote worker there's really not as many deductions as you may think.
I'm not saying doing contract work or being self employed is bad but I think it's important to be aware of these extra costs and things to think about.
There are some tax perks of being self employed too, like being able to fund a SEP account. For most self employed folks you can put 20% of your income or up to 58k in 2021 into this account. It's somewhat comparable to a 401k in the sense that it's a tax deferred account, AKA any amount you put into there will be taken off your income taxes today and you will pay taxes when you start withdrawing the money at about 60 years old based on whatever your income is then.
So in our example above if you had 250k income, wrote off 15k and then maxed out your 20% into a SEP for another 47k you'd really pay income tax on 188k. Keep in mind as a salary worker you'd have 19.5k into a 401k so it's mainly a benefit of about 27.5k of extra income that you're tax deferring.
Note: I'm not an accountant and I might be calculating things incorrectly but it's in the ballpark of a few percent.
One way to reduce your tax load is to contract through your LLC, pay yourself a salary from that, and get taxed as an S Corp. It helps to hire an accountant who knows how to handle most of this for you.
yeah i was coming here to suggest this. LLC with the S-corp election will save you ass-tons in taxes. the paperwork isn’t worth it until you get to around 100k in consulting income but from there on you can basically cut your SE taxes in half (although technically you don’t pay SE taxes with this setup, you’re paying yourself as w2 so their employer taxes)
> yeah i was coming here to suggest this. LLC with the S-corp election will save you ass-tons in taxes
Where did you hear that? No accountant I've ever spoken with mentioned it's worth setting up an LLC to save money on taxes as a typical set up where you're a solo developer who runs their own tech business.
I mean, paying yourself less of a salary through an LLC is going to result in paying less income tax but it's not a system where suddenly you're paying way less in taxes AND you get to keep the remainder to do as you please right now as if it's some type of easy loop hole.
There's also regulations around single employee LLCs around all profits being taxed as income for the owner.
Where did you hear that? No accountant I've ever spoken with mentioned it's worth setting up an LLC to save money on taxes as a typical set up where you're a solo developer who runs their own tech business.
I mean, paying yourself less of a salary through an LLC is going to result in paying less income tax but it's not a system where suddenly you're paying way less in taxes AND you get to keep the remainder to do as you please right now as if it's some type of easy loop hole.
There's also regulations around single employee LLCs around all profits being taxed as income for the owner.
i did it for years. You don’t pay employment taxes on dividends/distributions, just income taxes. so you’re still paying taxes on those but you’re saving 7.5% on the employment taxes side. maybe “ass-tons” is over selling it but coupled with business deductions you can take you can save quite a bit.
the IRS may take a closer look at you if you’re taking less than half your revenue in W2 income but otherwise it’s perfectly legitimate.
[edit: the S-corp election is key. look into that.]
the IRS may take a closer look at you if you’re taking less than half your revenue in W2 income but otherwise it’s perfectly legitimate.
[edit: the S-corp election is key. look into that.]
> You don’t pay employment taxes on dividends/distributions, just income taxes
Did you have multiple employees? I think that changes everything, we're talking about a solo business owner in this case.
All profits from a single employee LLC get treated as income tax. Here's a quote from Intuit[0]:
> Single-member LLCs are disregarded entities. A disregarded entity is ignored by the IRS for tax purposes, and the IRS collects the business’s taxes through the owner’s personal tax return. Single-member LLCs do not file a separate business tax return.
This also applies to S-corp election. It's why a few accountants that I've spoken with have suggested that creating an LLC for tax savings as a solo business owner isn't worth it. It just complicates things for no real benefit. You have reduced liabilities but that's separate from saving money on taxes.
As you mentioned it would be a good idea to give yourself a reasonable salary as an LLC employee to not get audit by the IRS which is why you can't expect to hire a friend for $10 / year to instantly make yourself a multi-employee business.
[0]: https://quickbooks.intuit.com/r/structuring/the-single-membe...
Did you have multiple employees? I think that changes everything, we're talking about a solo business owner in this case.
All profits from a single employee LLC get treated as income tax. Here's a quote from Intuit[0]:
> Single-member LLCs are disregarded entities. A disregarded entity is ignored by the IRS for tax purposes, and the IRS collects the business’s taxes through the owner’s personal tax return. Single-member LLCs do not file a separate business tax return.
This also applies to S-corp election. It's why a few accountants that I've spoken with have suggested that creating an LLC for tax savings as a solo business owner isn't worth it. It just complicates things for no real benefit. You have reduced liabilities but that's separate from saving money on taxes.
As you mentioned it would be a good idea to give yourself a reasonable salary as an LLC employee to not get audit by the IRS which is why you can't expect to hire a friend for $10 / year to instantly make yourself a multi-employee business.
[0]: https://quickbooks.intuit.com/r/structuring/the-single-membe...
that article makes no mention of s-corp implications, butthis isn’t an unusual strategy. Here’s an article outlining it:
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/electing-s-corporati...
edit: article from the IRS itself (https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe...)
> If a single-member LLC does not elect to be treated as a corporation, the LLC is a "disregarded entity," and the LLC's activities should be reflected on its owner's federal tax return.
(emphasis mine)
That “if” is significant. As an SMLLC you can elect either C-corp or S-corp (pass through) status, and that changes things completely.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/electing-s-corporati...
edit: article from the IRS itself (https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe...)
> If a single-member LLC does not elect to be treated as a corporation, the LLC is a "disregarded entity," and the LLC's activities should be reflected on its owner's federal tax return.
(emphasis mine)
That “if” is significant. As an SMLLC you can elect either C-corp or S-corp (pass through) status, and that changes things completely.
This was the way I did it, I worked as a freelancer charging 1k a day based on me having both nice specific skills and language skills that are uncommon. eventually some of my clients approached me to work full time for them.
Keeping in mind things like self-employment tax, health insurance, sick days, vacation, 401k matching, liability insurance, and so on.
That is, don't take your billable rate * 2080 hours/year and compare that as apples-to-apples.
That is, don't take your billable rate * 2080 hours/year and compare that as apples-to-apples.
Furthermore, relatively few consultants have an endless stream of work that allows them to just work as much or as little as they want to each week. And, even if they do, some non-trivial percentage of even their working time is going to be non-billable hours related to administration, education, running errands, etc.
I was able to recently get a close to $200k base salary job as Sr. software engineer for a startup. Fully remote with benefits. Have a lot of experience though and may be considered somewhat of a niche area.
Somewhat of a tangent, does anyone know how to convert a US-working condition total comp of 250k$ to, say, Swedish-working condition total comp?
The highest Swedish total comp for Software engineer I ever heard is (75kSEK / month). This is 2.5 times lower than the above figure. However, to be fair, total "Swedish" comp should also include public benefits, like pension, parental leave, free "stay at home with sick child", free university, free healthcare, etc.
How can one determine if Swedes are underpaid or just pushed into mandatory savings?
The highest Swedish total comp for Software engineer I ever heard is (75kSEK / month). This is 2.5 times lower than the above figure. However, to be fair, total "Swedish" comp should also include public benefits, like pension, parental leave, free "stay at home with sick child", free university, free healthcare, etc.
How can one determine if Swedes are underpaid or just pushed into mandatory savings?
> However, to be fair, total "Swedish" comp should also include public benefits, like pension, parental leave, free "stay at home with sick child", free university, free healthcare, etc
Does it? don't you pay really high taxes on the 75k to cover for the benefits you just listed? Whereas in the US, you pay a lot less taxes and probably equal or better health insurance coverage if you're a SWE.
I think another thing to factor in is housing and purchasing power. 200k in SF is different from 150k in the midwest or 90k in Malmö
Does it? don't you pay really high taxes on the 75k to cover for the benefits you just listed? Whereas in the US, you pay a lot less taxes and probably equal or better health insurance coverage if you're a SWE.
I think another thing to factor in is housing and purchasing power. 200k in SF is different from 150k in the midwest or 90k in Malmö
1. Fill out your LinkedIn profile with keywords related to the job you're looking for. This gives you inbound leads. Discuss comp on the first call.
2. Practice LeetCode.
3. Practice system design.
4. Come up with compelling anecdotes in the STAR format for the common behavioral questions.
5. Use levels.fyi to target applying to places that will meet your comp expectations.
6. Keep going. Practice makes perfect.
2. Practice LeetCode.
3. Practice system design.
4. Come up with compelling anecdotes in the STAR format for the common behavioral questions.
5. Use levels.fyi to target applying to places that will meet your comp expectations.
6. Keep going. Practice makes perfect.
$250k. Wow. I'd have to say you'd need multiple doctorates, you'd written at least one book that every programmer regards as "The" reference manual, and gotten a Nobel Prize for something. I've been writing software professionally since 1979 and I'm at not quite 3/4 of your goal. Maybe location and choice of tool set has something to do with it. Good luck.
Nope, can easily clear 300k+ TC as a senior/staff/principal at FAANG fully remote without any of those accolades. Just need skill and a bit of luck.
I think you might want to reexamine the market. I'm several multiples more than $250k and have a BS and ~15 years of experience working in web development.
Please don't take it personally, but that's hard for me to swallow. I've probably got coffee mugs that are older than you from places where I've written code.
And thus does the clueless old man fade off into the sunset ....
I'm a senior with 20 years experience from a first world country and my salary would more than double if I got what you currently get.
You’re obviously underpaid. Or not as senior as you think of yourself.
Could also be that you're seriously overpaid.
I would be the case if not many other developers I personally know and their salaries
The answer to this riddle is that I live in an area where salaries are low (Finland, well outside the capital) and I usually value human connection enough that I haven't sought remote work. But now that everything is remote, I might just as well try for that 2x salary
Wish you best of luck!
Get really good. By that I mean get fluent in the code, the sales pitch of a product, corner cases and examples of where this has saved real or hypothetical customers money and how. Always looks good to be active on their support groups just incase you encounter a tech person at interview.
Then become a consultant.
How much experience do you have? Assuming you're not a new grad, any FAANG (or company that wants that level of talent) should give you more than $250K for a mid-level or higher SWE role, even remote.
Look for something in web3 / Decentralized Finance, there is a ton of money flowing into it right now and almost all jobs are remote.
Find a way to generate $500-750k/year for your company.
They will be happy to hire you for $250k/year.
depending on where you live and how much experience you have, it shouldn't be too hard to get a ~$200k (base comp) fully remote. $250k base comp sounds harder though. I'm a hiring manager at a FAANG and we're hiring a bunch of positions right now, remote is really taking off.
I once heard the saying 'developers are like prostitudes - pretending to be excited costs extra...' so i take from that you should pretend to be very excited about every idea your higher-ups managers throw at you - i mean that will make everybody else that has to deal with the shit they come up with hate you - but they will surly pay your gratefully because you make them think they are not retarded worthless space (most of the time they are - don't know if anyone doesn't know that open secret).
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Just get a remote job at FAANG.
What makes you think you're worth anything anywhere near that?
For example faang salaries of the similar roles i’m currently in. Not to mention that i’ve overgrown it.
If you have to ask here, you won't find it.
Why stop at 250?
If you are worth 250k companies find you. I used to get companies calling to offer work because I was able to prove my worth and have companies refer me to other companies.
Harder for you to put a number on your head and try to convince anyone you are worth it.
Harder for you to put a number on your head and try to convince anyone you are worth it.
I almost never faced an HR ready to discuss salaries higher, than my current “above average” full-time salary in my region (~120-180k).
I wonder what should your CV look like and how should you approach the search for companies that can afford expensive developers no matter the geo.
If the goal is not worth the effort in the first place — what alternative scalable ways to increase senior programmer’s income can you recommend?
Scalable means more or less reproducible in finite timeframe without high risks like in “starting your own startup”.