Ask HN: For normal sleepers, what is your sleep experience?
22 comments
I'm responding to this since I believe I was in your shoes once:
I used to have middle of the night wake ups (intense anxiety or pain in the chest, or waking up and being unable to return to sleep)... then, I got very intensively into meditation. I didn't get into meditation to help with sleep though.
When I would wake up in the middle of the night then would do a body scanning technique. Scanning through the body and investigating the emotional state in the body. Really this is about bringing the attention of the mind to awful feelings. The more you fend off negative feelings the worse your life your overall well being will become (at least based on my experience). Initially when I started doing this body scans might last an hour. Body scanning is not fending off negative thoughts but instead embracing them. In a lot of ways it is like exposure therapy. So over time the body scans got shorter and shorter. Eventually I switched to a noting style of practice and at times I would wake up in the middle of the night and very rapidly note whatever was happening in my experience then almost immediately return to sleep.
So, while I still do sometimes wake up in the middle of the night, the duration of wakefulness is typically much shorter compared to how it used to be. When I look at my mom she has a kind of similar sleep pattern as me and nowadays only sleeps around 4 hours a night.
I used to have middle of the night wake ups (intense anxiety or pain in the chest, or waking up and being unable to return to sleep)... then, I got very intensively into meditation. I didn't get into meditation to help with sleep though.
When I would wake up in the middle of the night then would do a body scanning technique. Scanning through the body and investigating the emotional state in the body. Really this is about bringing the attention of the mind to awful feelings. The more you fend off negative feelings the worse your life your overall well being will become (at least based on my experience). Initially when I started doing this body scans might last an hour. Body scanning is not fending off negative thoughts but instead embracing them. In a lot of ways it is like exposure therapy. So over time the body scans got shorter and shorter. Eventually I switched to a noting style of practice and at times I would wake up in the middle of the night and very rapidly note whatever was happening in my experience then almost immediately return to sleep.
So, while I still do sometimes wake up in the middle of the night, the duration of wakefulness is typically much shorter compared to how it used to be. When I look at my mom she has a kind of similar sleep pattern as me and nowadays only sleeps around 4 hours a night.
You may well have already, but if not, please consider getting tested for sleep apnea. Waking up in an anxious jolt, with chest pain, or a feeling of breathlessness, are all warning signs that you’re breathing is stopping during the night.
It may be a waste of time, or it may save years of your life. All the best.
It may be a waste of time, or it may save years of your life. All the best.
Thank you for sharing. I've tried body scanning a few times but I found my mind turns it into a timer, "I'm almost through my body scan and I not any closer to sleep." Mine only lasted 15-20 minutes. The negative thought patterns is what CBT helped me with.
I had an intensive daily meditation practice at the time which made it easier to do while in the sleep posture. It's definitely not a panacea since everyone has different needs.
Overtime I learned a lot of different techniques to help to bring my mind back into the body. I became obsessed because of how I had been avoiding my feelings for my whole life.
For me, I got extremely curious about what I was feeling either good or bad. That overall curiosity and desperation in a way forced me to pry open the dirty and grittier parts of my feelings and let them go.
I hope CBT or other techniques continue to help you. Definitely curious to know what other techniques may work for you.
Overtime I learned a lot of different techniques to help to bring my mind back into the body. I became obsessed because of how I had been avoiding my feelings for my whole life.
For me, I got extremely curious about what I was feeling either good or bad. That overall curiosity and desperation in a way forced me to pry open the dirty and grittier parts of my feelings and let them go.
I hope CBT or other techniques continue to help you. Definitely curious to know what other techniques may work for you.
[deleted]
For the most part I consider myself super lucky in the sleep department. I go to bed roughly the same time every night, fall asleep within about 15 minutes of turning out the lights, and usually get about 7-8 hours of sleep.
Sometimes I'll wake up to use the bathroom, and lately I've been waking up for a few minutes at 3 am every morning, which is weird, but I always get back to sleep easily after the odd wakeup. Waking up is harder in the winter when sunrise is later and I need to get up in the dark, but it's not a major issue.
A poor night of sleep for me is either one where I wake up more than a couple times (usually because I overdid it at the gym and I'm crampy/sore, or because my apartment is unusually cold), or any time I get less than 6.5 hours of sleep.
I don't do anything special, just follow all the usual boring sleep advice: I don't lay on my bed unless I'm going to sleep (mostly), I go to bed and wake up at the same time most days, and have a set routine when I wake up. I exercise daily for 30-60 minutes, don't drink coffee after noon, and if I'm drinking alcohol, stop drinking a few hours before I'm going to sleep.
[Edit: I should add that when I was younger, I could drink coffee or alcohol at any time of night and still sleep well. That has changed as I've gotten older]
Sometimes I'll wake up to use the bathroom, and lately I've been waking up for a few minutes at 3 am every morning, which is weird, but I always get back to sleep easily after the odd wakeup. Waking up is harder in the winter when sunrise is later and I need to get up in the dark, but it's not a major issue.
A poor night of sleep for me is either one where I wake up more than a couple times (usually because I overdid it at the gym and I'm crampy/sore, or because my apartment is unusually cold), or any time I get less than 6.5 hours of sleep.
I don't do anything special, just follow all the usual boring sleep advice: I don't lay on my bed unless I'm going to sleep (mostly), I go to bed and wake up at the same time most days, and have a set routine when I wake up. I exercise daily for 30-60 minutes, don't drink coffee after noon, and if I'm drinking alcohol, stop drinking a few hours before I'm going to sleep.
[Edit: I should add that when I was younger, I could drink coffee or alcohol at any time of night and still sleep well. That has changed as I've gotten older]
Hi! My sleep profile is identical to yours, as you've explained it.
- Sleep within 15 mins of actually laying down
- Total of 7-8h sleep
- Weird waking up in the middle of night @3am to drink or use the restroom.
- Poor night of sleep due to hard exercise.
- Same experience and habits with coffee/alcohol.
I wonder if the 3am wakeup is due to something with the body's circadian rhythm.
- Sleep within 15 mins of actually laying down
- Total of 7-8h sleep
- Weird waking up in the middle of night @3am to drink or use the restroom.
- Poor night of sleep due to hard exercise.
- Same experience and habits with coffee/alcohol.
I wonder if the 3am wakeup is due to something with the body's circadian rhythm.
Thank you for replying. How often do you have a poor night of sleep? Do you ever wake up before it's time to get up and just lay in bed until it's time to get up?
I think I probably sleep poorly (based on my criteria above) about once every other week or so. I definitely wake up sometimes before it's time to wake up and lie there for awhile, but I can't remember a time when it's taken longer than 30 minutes for me to get back to sleep in any of those cases.
If it's less than an hour before I'd normally get up, and I'm awake and feel like I want to get out of bed, I just get up early that day and am a little more tired when I go to bed that night.
If it's less than an hour before I'd normally get up, and I'm awake and feel like I want to get out of bed, I just get up early that day and am a little more tired when I go to bed that night.
I would say that I sleep very well. Normally 8-9 hours per night without waking up.
The biggest impacts for me are, not being stressed, lifting weights and having a regular sleep schedule.
Lifting weights helps significantly with the stress and the regular sleep schedule is something I’ve always done.
The biggest impacts for me are, not being stressed, lifting weights and having a regular sleep schedule.
Lifting weights helps significantly with the stress and the regular sleep schedule is something I’ve always done.
Normal sleep for me was, thinking about tomorrow til all of a sudden I open my eyes and now it's tomorrow.
It's been a long time since those days, I guess age is bad that way. For some reason in my early 30s I started having very realistic and very, very bad dreams every...single...night. I'd spend time startled, then relieved, then basically afraid to fall back asleep every night.
By accident I found something that helped...I had an old DVD player that would keep looping the intro if you didn't do anything. I'd put in a movie called 'Winged Migration' and fell right to sleep. I don't know if it's because I recognized the sounds and it grounded me, or because it's an awesome peaceful soundtrack, but it completely helped my dream problem! I'm not one that listens to music to relax, or work, or anything. But to this day I'll play that soundtrack before bed if my brain is acting up again.
I guess I now see the value in all those natural sound CDs that were all the rage.
It's been a long time since those days, I guess age is bad that way. For some reason in my early 30s I started having very realistic and very, very bad dreams every...single...night. I'd spend time startled, then relieved, then basically afraid to fall back asleep every night.
By accident I found something that helped...I had an old DVD player that would keep looping the intro if you didn't do anything. I'd put in a movie called 'Winged Migration' and fell right to sleep. I don't know if it's because I recognized the sounds and it grounded me, or because it's an awesome peaceful soundtrack, but it completely helped my dream problem! I'm not one that listens to music to relax, or work, or anything. But to this day I'll play that soundtrack before bed if my brain is acting up again.
I guess I now see the value in all those natural sound CDs that were all the rage.
That's what I remember normal sleep being. On most days falling asleep quickly and being out all night. But I think I forget there were many days that was not the case. I believe age is part of the reason for me too.
I remember reading that the natural sleep cycle is actually interrupted in the middle of the night. https://edition.cnn.com/2022/01/09/health/sleep-history-well...
I'm speculating that this happens: You're very aware of your sleep, keeping your bedtimes. You're getting older. As people get older, they tend to require less sleep. You've not adjusted your bedtime to fit with your decreased need for sleep.
You might want to embrace the change, if you can, go to bed a bit earlier, in anticipation for waking up, then spend the time guilt-free, doing something you enjoy, maybe a low intensity activity, or some chores that you didn't do during the day.
My own sleep is pretty normal, I have trouble falling asleep, but when I do sleep, I sleep well until I have to wake up for a trip to the bathroom, if I do this quickly enough, I won't have trouble falling asleep again.
I'm speculating that this happens: You're very aware of your sleep, keeping your bedtimes. You're getting older. As people get older, they tend to require less sleep. You've not adjusted your bedtime to fit with your decreased need for sleep.
You might want to embrace the change, if you can, go to bed a bit earlier, in anticipation for waking up, then spend the time guilt-free, doing something you enjoy, maybe a low intensity activity, or some chores that you didn't do during the day.
My own sleep is pretty normal, I have trouble falling asleep, but when I do sleep, I sleep well until I have to wake up for a trip to the bathroom, if I do this quickly enough, I won't have trouble falling asleep again.
[deleted]
As I got older, I found that I wake up in the middle of the night more often. Often, this is because I need to pee. This doesn't affect the quality of my sleep if I can doze off soon after getting back to bed.
I use a fitness band to track my sleep patterns. It's recommended to get 20-25% of your sleep as REM sleep, around 90 minutes. I always feel rested when I hit this figure, even at times I get less than 7 hours sleep.
What really helped me is a regular sleeping time and waking time.
Also, when I get those negative thoughts in the middle of the night as you do, I focus on relaxing my body and also not focusing on thinking anything and letting my mind drift. Sometimes I even return to what I was previously dreaming about.
What's also been key for me is having a good sleep environment.
* Comfortable bed and pillows
* No stimulants when nearing sleeping time (alcohol or caffeine)
* No streneous activities as well right before sleep
* Well-ventilated room
I use a fitness band to track my sleep patterns. It's recommended to get 20-25% of your sleep as REM sleep, around 90 minutes. I always feel rested when I hit this figure, even at times I get less than 7 hours sleep.
What really helped me is a regular sleeping time and waking time.
Also, when I get those negative thoughts in the middle of the night as you do, I focus on relaxing my body and also not focusing on thinking anything and letting my mind drift. Sometimes I even return to what I was previously dreaming about.
What's also been key for me is having a good sleep environment.
* Comfortable bed and pillows
* No stimulants when nearing sleeping time (alcohol or caffeine)
* No streneous activities as well right before sleep
* Well-ventilated room
I took a long time to get to sleep, slept poorly and intermittently, and had a hard time waking up until I was diagnosed with sleep apnea and got a CPAP machine. Now I just pull the mask on at night and I'm out within a couple of minutes. I also wake up suddenly in the morning, get up, and start my day. Much different from the endless tossing and turning to get to sleep and long drowsy sleep-ins in the mornings.
Sometimes I'll come wide awake in the middle of the night. No problem, get up, read, or surf the web for a while, then go back to bed. Sometimes you need more sleep than usual, but sometimes you don't need as much.
Sometimes I'll come wide awake in the middle of the night. No problem, get up, read, or surf the web for a while, then go back to bed. Sometimes you need more sleep than usual, but sometimes you don't need as much.
I still struggle with sleep, have for years. I have tightness in my chest and the negative thoughts come up too. I think it's worse in the wintertime for me. I'm trying a new thing to just get outside and get 15 minutes of sun right in the morning with my coffee... not always easy though.
Overall great. It is important to me to sleep on a hard matress, without a pillow. Once I made these adjustments my Sleep improved greatly.
But I am only in my early twenties so probably not that great of an reference.
Also after hard physical work the sleep gets even better.
Go to bed at the first hint of being sleepy. At first, if that's 8:00 PM, just go to bed and be done with it - the important thing is to get normal sleep rhythms - you can work on syncing them with activities and clocks later. After many stressful years as a startup CTO/CEO, I had trouble sleeping. I'm under more stress now, but sleep pretty well almost all the time. The one thing I've learned is that if I ignore that first tired/sleepy signal, there's a good chance I've missed the boat and will not be able to get to sleep later. Staying up past 11:30 these days is a sure recipe for a bad night's sleep.
A "normal" night's sleep such as I experience now: At first sign of sleepiness, STOP whatever I'm doing and immediately get undressed and ready for bed. Brushing teeth is good dentally, but tends to wake me a bit, so I sometimes jsut swish with a hydrogen peroxide rinse and turn in. Turn out all lights and make sure room is dark. If not too tired, take melatonin and magnesium (I prefer magnesium taurate) - both promote sleep and relaxation. A year ago, I also started taking a limited part of my supplement regimen aimed at tissue repair overnight just before bedtime. It's working so well that I now think it does more good than everything else I take in the daytime (aimed more at energy production and utilization). If you're taking an autophagy and vitamin C regimen, this is the time to do it. Avoid B vitamins, as they're too energy-releasing.
Go to bed, head hits the pillow, say prayers (the mantra-like rosary seems to help my Catholic friends, mine are more stream-of-consciousness, but including a lot of deliberate thankfulness) and usually go to sleep in the process. If not, concentrate on the darkness, and if you're really stuck, find two background sounds to concentrate on at the same time - this almost always brings sleep.
I sometimes wake up in the middle of the night - if so, pee and maybe have a small drink of room-temp filtered water (cold water from the icebox is surprisingly good for waking - almost as good as coffee!), then immediately back to bed, where sleep usually comes easily.
Wake up to either sun, alarm, or sometimes, just your body waking up. I don't fight this anymore, either, esp. since I'm often going to bed by 11 at the latest. If I wake up at 5 AM, or even 3:30 or 4 AM, fine, get up and read/pray/plan. Often, especially in the middle of the night, this leads to sleepiness again - and I find that the "second sleep" that follows this is often the most refreshing. (N.B.: Set your phone to be silent from say, 11PM to 7 AM and NEVER look at it until after you're up the next day (for me, it's never until after I've poured a cup of tea or coffee.) Do NOT use your phone as your alarm clock. you can afford to buy a real one.)
Repeat daily.
Other tips: No caffeine after dinner. No sugar or snacks after dinner. If you must have dessert, do it very soon after dinner. No hard exercise within X hours of bedtime (seems to vary a lot per person, for some reason - experiment and see...) If really having trouble sleeping, music may help - instrumental ONLY - words are your enemy if trying to clear your mind to sleep. If you have Amazon Prime and an Echo, I've found the "Just Breathe" playlist puts me down quickly enough that I'll sometimes use it to provoke a bit deeper sleep for an afternoon nap if I need more than usual recharge from that. Despite (or because of?) it's complexity, baroque classical seems to help, too - kind of the opposite of the previous playlist, so see what works for you. Someone once told me that Bach's Goldberg Variations (I prefer them on harpsichord, Trevor Pinnock's recordings are especially good)were written to help a patron who was having trouble sleeping - it does seem that the intertwining complexity and counterpoint seems to put the mind in a more relaxed state. Use low volume, so the music stopping doesn't wake you up!
BTW, naps of no more than about 20 mins can do wonders for nighttime sleep, too. If your work situation doesn't allow naps, either get creative, find a new job, or just realize you can't nap after all.
As always, find out what works for you - YMMV!
Sleep well. You've got this.
A "normal" night's sleep such as I experience now: At first sign of sleepiness, STOP whatever I'm doing and immediately get undressed and ready for bed. Brushing teeth is good dentally, but tends to wake me a bit, so I sometimes jsut swish with a hydrogen peroxide rinse and turn in. Turn out all lights and make sure room is dark. If not too tired, take melatonin and magnesium (I prefer magnesium taurate) - both promote sleep and relaxation. A year ago, I also started taking a limited part of my supplement regimen aimed at tissue repair overnight just before bedtime. It's working so well that I now think it does more good than everything else I take in the daytime (aimed more at energy production and utilization). If you're taking an autophagy and vitamin C regimen, this is the time to do it. Avoid B vitamins, as they're too energy-releasing.
Go to bed, head hits the pillow, say prayers (the mantra-like rosary seems to help my Catholic friends, mine are more stream-of-consciousness, but including a lot of deliberate thankfulness) and usually go to sleep in the process. If not, concentrate on the darkness, and if you're really stuck, find two background sounds to concentrate on at the same time - this almost always brings sleep.
I sometimes wake up in the middle of the night - if so, pee and maybe have a small drink of room-temp filtered water (cold water from the icebox is surprisingly good for waking - almost as good as coffee!), then immediately back to bed, where sleep usually comes easily.
Wake up to either sun, alarm, or sometimes, just your body waking up. I don't fight this anymore, either, esp. since I'm often going to bed by 11 at the latest. If I wake up at 5 AM, or even 3:30 or 4 AM, fine, get up and read/pray/plan. Often, especially in the middle of the night, this leads to sleepiness again - and I find that the "second sleep" that follows this is often the most refreshing. (N.B.: Set your phone to be silent from say, 11PM to 7 AM and NEVER look at it until after you're up the next day (for me, it's never until after I've poured a cup of tea or coffee.) Do NOT use your phone as your alarm clock. you can afford to buy a real one.)
Repeat daily.
Other tips: No caffeine after dinner. No sugar or snacks after dinner. If you must have dessert, do it very soon after dinner. No hard exercise within X hours of bedtime (seems to vary a lot per person, for some reason - experiment and see...) If really having trouble sleeping, music may help - instrumental ONLY - words are your enemy if trying to clear your mind to sleep. If you have Amazon Prime and an Echo, I've found the "Just Breathe" playlist puts me down quickly enough that I'll sometimes use it to provoke a bit deeper sleep for an afternoon nap if I need more than usual recharge from that. Despite (or because of?) it's complexity, baroque classical seems to help, too - kind of the opposite of the previous playlist, so see what works for you. Someone once told me that Bach's Goldberg Variations (I prefer them on harpsichord, Trevor Pinnock's recordings are especially good)were written to help a patron who was having trouble sleeping - it does seem that the intertwining complexity and counterpoint seems to put the mind in a more relaxed state. Use low volume, so the music stopping doesn't wake you up!
BTW, naps of no more than about 20 mins can do wonders for nighttime sleep, too. If your work situation doesn't allow naps, either get creative, find a new job, or just realize you can't nap after all.
As always, find out what works for you - YMMV!
Sleep well. You've got this.
I thankfully have never really had issues falling asleep. And I almost always get 4 hours of sleep before waking these days. But that's when my mind starts wondering if I'll get back to sleep. I've heard the advice to get up if you don't fall back asleep but from the times I've tried I don't get a second sleep. Instead if I continue to lay in bed I have a descent chance of getting some additional light sleep. I haven't tried instrumental music but my concern is that I'll start tracking the songs having been played and not being any closer to sleep, that's at least what I end up doing with similar solutions.
Sorry to hear about it. That's a lot of questions, I'll be brief in just sharing some of my own experiences that may be relevant.
First, it helped me to consider that people may need to find their own ideal sleep circumstances by analyzing data about themselves. There's only so much others can tell you about what will work for you.
Personally I created a measurement system for scoring my daily outcomes; analyzing the numbers helped me figure out what kind of sleep worked best for me.
I sleep about 8-10 hours a day if you include naps. I try to aim for at least 6 full sleep cycles at night if possible. This means I go to bed earlier than I used to.
I have had experience with oversleep as well, and 11 hours is about where that line is for me.
If I get at least 8 hours of sleep I consider myself "weapons free" for daily intake of up to 800mg caffeine for productivity and creativity. Less than that and I try not to take more than 100mg for a variety of reasons I measured over the years.
I also started using supplements to help me get this kind of rest at night and would not go back. They are really, really effective.
When I wake up in the middle of the night, which isn't too often, I find it helps to go into executive mode immediately rather than laying around, or worse, waiting for the next sleep cycle.
I usually get out of bed immediately and get into what probably looks like a normal pre-bedtime routine. I use the bathroom, get a bit of water to drink, take an anti-inflammatory (I find that these work well alongside sleep supplements for me) or similar supplement and also a sleep supplement that I didn't already take earlier.
I also eat a tiny bit of mixed nuts and then go back to bed and read from something I've already read before, like a favorite book. This is both for establishing a known feeling of comfort and also to prevent a dopaminergic response to new information.
This early waking by itself is almost never the same as a poor night of sleep, because the process gets it back on the rails and I let myself sleep in if I need to. I try not to use an alarm clock.
Sleep got really difficult for me in my 20s and 30s for a variety of reasons. I consider this part and parcel with chronic depression and anxiety of that time which is no longer an issue.
I also developed a meditation system that is based on my personality dynamics and this almost always gets me to sleep at nap time without much trouble.
If this all seems fancy, it kind of is. And it works really well. I can still take off and go out camping with the family and get terrible sleep laying on the ground for a couple nights when needed, but part of the new me is knowing how to take really good care of myself overall and setting those boundaries.
Good luck and I hope you make awesome progress.
First, it helped me to consider that people may need to find their own ideal sleep circumstances by analyzing data about themselves. There's only so much others can tell you about what will work for you.
Personally I created a measurement system for scoring my daily outcomes; analyzing the numbers helped me figure out what kind of sleep worked best for me.
I sleep about 8-10 hours a day if you include naps. I try to aim for at least 6 full sleep cycles at night if possible. This means I go to bed earlier than I used to.
I have had experience with oversleep as well, and 11 hours is about where that line is for me.
If I get at least 8 hours of sleep I consider myself "weapons free" for daily intake of up to 800mg caffeine for productivity and creativity. Less than that and I try not to take more than 100mg for a variety of reasons I measured over the years.
I also started using supplements to help me get this kind of rest at night and would not go back. They are really, really effective.
When I wake up in the middle of the night, which isn't too often, I find it helps to go into executive mode immediately rather than laying around, or worse, waiting for the next sleep cycle.
I usually get out of bed immediately and get into what probably looks like a normal pre-bedtime routine. I use the bathroom, get a bit of water to drink, take an anti-inflammatory (I find that these work well alongside sleep supplements for me) or similar supplement and also a sleep supplement that I didn't already take earlier.
I also eat a tiny bit of mixed nuts and then go back to bed and read from something I've already read before, like a favorite book. This is both for establishing a known feeling of comfort and also to prevent a dopaminergic response to new information.
This early waking by itself is almost never the same as a poor night of sleep, because the process gets it back on the rails and I let myself sleep in if I need to. I try not to use an alarm clock.
Sleep got really difficult for me in my 20s and 30s for a variety of reasons. I consider this part and parcel with chronic depression and anxiety of that time which is no longer an issue.
I also developed a meditation system that is based on my personality dynamics and this almost always gets me to sleep at nap time without much trouble.
If this all seems fancy, it kind of is. And it works really well. I can still take off and go out camping with the family and get terrible sleep laying on the ground for a couple nights when needed, but part of the new me is knowing how to take really good care of myself overall and setting those boundaries.
Good luck and I hope you make awesome progress.
Thank you. I'd love to get that much sleep but if I push my sleep quantity up my sleep quality goes down. And so at this point I feel I need to readjust what my sleep quantity expectations are and accept that.
I've heard about when waking up going through your bedtime routine again. I haven't given that a chance, out of concerns that it will wake me up further, but that's something to try.
I've heard about when waking up going through your bedtime routine again. I haven't given that a chance, out of concerns that it will wake me up further, but that's something to try.
Therefore I thought it beneficial for me, and others, to hear what sleep is like from those who do not consider themselves to have sleep issues. How many hours a night do you sleep? How often do you wake up? How consistent is your sleep? How often do you have a poor night of sleep? What do you consider a poor night of sleep? How has sleep changed as you have aged? How has it changed during seasons in your life?