Apple Imagines Mac-Inside-a-Keyboard Device Evocative of 80s Home Computers(macrumors.com)
macrumors.com
Apple Imagines Mac-Inside-a-Keyboard Device Evocative of 80s Home Computers
https://www.macrumors.com/2022/02/25/apple-explores-mac-inside-keyboard-device/
79 comments
Looks a lot like the raspberry pi 400 https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-400/.
Yes.
I wonder if this is about education.
Essentially I think Apple have realised their new developer pipe is drying up; the devices are too expensive for hobbyists and they are vastly too expensive for almost all schools on earth.
The Pi 400 is a wholly credible device in those markets; it solves a lot of the practicality issues of the earlier machines.
A device with even an old style A14 or the M1 in an M2 future, tucked inside a keyboard, could be made viable for this market, I think, and it's seemed obvious to me for some time that the only reason Apple don't make the Apple TV into a general purpose education computing device is that they don't care about the market.
If they've started to care about that market again, it's a good thing.
I wonder if this is about education.
Essentially I think Apple have realised their new developer pipe is drying up; the devices are too expensive for hobbyists and they are vastly too expensive for almost all schools on earth.
The Pi 400 is a wholly credible device in those markets; it solves a lot of the practicality issues of the earlier machines.
A device with even an old style A14 or the M1 in an M2 future, tucked inside a keyboard, could be made viable for this market, I think, and it's seemed obvious to me for some time that the only reason Apple don't make the Apple TV into a general purpose education computing device is that they don't care about the market.
If they've started to care about that market again, it's a good thing.
How do laptops without screens make any sense in schools, which are largely already deploying cheap laptops with screens?
Could be targeting library or desktop business uses cases?
There is no reason why it cant be squeezed down to $299. Basically the iPad ( $329 ) without screen. Or more like with A14 but $399.
Cool idea, the problem is I still dont understand where the target market are, the two above doesn't seems very Apple to me. There are ~700M business PC ( both laptop and desktop ), I would imagine this is attractive enough for Apple to make exception.
There is no reason why it cant be squeezed down to $299. Basically the iPad ( $329 ) without screen. Or more like with A14 but $399.
Cool idea, the problem is I still dont understand where the target market are, the two above doesn't seems very Apple to me. There are ~700M business PC ( both laptop and desktop ), I would imagine this is attractive enough for Apple to make exception.
or, just make ipad a proper handheld general purposed device that can be used for more sophisticated purposes, instead of crippling it.
I’m terms of user experience Apple is unparalleled. If I was a teacher and there was a cheap option to educate kids with less hands on from me, I’d go with that option in a heart beat.
> I think Apple have realised their new developer pipe is drying up
Is this actually happening? New iOS apps seem to be coming along in a flood like usual.
Is this actually happening? New iOS apps seem to be coming along in a flood like usual.
It is also because the developer experience on a mac is a disaster when you have to use docker (and can't do it in a VM).
I thought the same thing ... and wonder how Apple can possibly believe this is patentable.
I thought it was a design patent. It's full of very specific measurements.
Design patents only protect key aspects of product design, they are more limited, and -- evidently like this one -- they're kept secret until they are granted.
There's a good chance this device is actually going to happen.
If it's not a design patent then they are really only claiming one or two small elements of this as innovation. Read any patent; they're all like this at some level.
Design patents only protect key aspects of product design, they are more limited, and -- evidently like this one -- they're kept secret until they are granted.
There's a good chance this device is actually going to happen.
If it's not a design patent then they are really only claiming one or two small elements of this as innovation. Read any patent; they're all like this at some level.
Measurements and details (“a hinge foldable about an axis perpendicular to the rear-facing wall”, “a cross-sectional shape of the enclosure is triangular”)
This is to protect (somewhat) against lookalikes.
One interesting part is that they mention an inductive charging coil. Cursory reading didn’t tell me whether that’s for keeping a mouse charged or for charging the device.
This is to protect (somewhat) against lookalikes.
One interesting part is that they mention an inductive charging coil. Cursory reading didn’t tell me whether that’s for keeping a mouse charged or for charging the device.
> This is to protect (somewhat) against lookalikes.
Right. Fits with my understanding. Basically they (and others -- HP/LG) use these patent classes to protect aspects of technical designs in the way that Coca Cola used design patents to protect their classic bottle shape.
So possibly not an actual design patent but something with the same narrow scope.
I guess it's an open question as to whether they should be allowed, but they surely seem largely to be easy to avoid in good faith.
Right. Fits with my understanding. Basically they (and others -- HP/LG) use these patent classes to protect aspects of technical designs in the way that Coca Cola used design patents to protect their classic bottle shape.
So possibly not an actual design patent but something with the same narrow scope.
I guess it's an open question as to whether they should be allowed, but they surely seem largely to be easy to avoid in good faith.
More notes in my other comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30467618
Those don’t seem to sell well either-at least they’ve been available for purchase much longer and easier than the other models. Could be for a headset though.
Well -- they obviously don't have quite as broad an application as the Pi 4 and Zero 2 have.
You can't embed a Pi 400 in a robot, you wouldn't stick it on the side of a 3D printer, turn it into a streaming media player, etc.
I suspect the Pi 400 sells better at specific times of the year -- at Christmas and when schools are spending their rare IT budgets. But it's also the first product of its kind from them.
You can't embed a Pi 400 in a robot, you wouldn't stick it on the side of a 3D printer, turn it into a streaming media player, etc.
I suspect the Pi 400 sells better at specific times of the year -- at Christmas and when schools are spending their rare IT budgets. But it's also the first product of its kind from them.
Finally I'll be able to send my whole desktop computer to repair when a key is stuck.
I don't really see the benefit here, all you get are some drawbacks you usually see with laptops. I understand the all-in-one inside a screen, but integrating it with one of the parts most exposed to wear?
I don't really see the benefit here, all you get are some drawbacks you usually see with laptops. I understand the all-in-one inside a screen, but integrating it with one of the parts most exposed to wear?
I’d venture to say that upgrading screens happens less frequently than upgrading the mobo/cpu.
Plus, this could be an affordable option due to BYOScreen.
They could potentially use it for wider adoption of the purported VR headset.
Plus, this could be an affordable option due to BYOScreen.
They could potentially use it for wider adoption of the purported VR headset.
> upgrading screens happens less frequently than upgrading the mobo/cpu
Heck, I have a 2009 iMac that I'm using as an external monitor right now.
Heck, I have a 2009 iMac that I'm using as an external monitor right now.
Well it is a bold claim that they've fixed their keyboard problems, that's for sure.
Evidence suggests they have, with the new design.
What was striking about Apple's recent keyboard woes is precisely that is that in general keyboards do _not_ routinely fail; they last for a very long time.
Evidence suggests they have, with the new design.
What was striking about Apple's recent keyboard woes is precisely that is that in general keyboards do _not_ routinely fail; they last for a very long time.
My brother bought a Pi 400 that had a stuck key, we've been too lazy to return it so we plugged in a USB keyboard :(.
Yup, it seems that they solved the problem of 'M1 chips are so great people will keep their devices for 5+ years and we will lose sales' with 'let's fuse them with something easily breakable and expendable'.
Given that this existed in the 80s, how can this be patentable? Has anyone read the actual claims of the patent and feel qualified to explain what it is that Apple is claiming is novel and patentable?
1) Patents are outrageous and should be abolished. However, in this particular case, the patent has not yet been granted, so may indeed not be found to be valid.
2) The article https://www.macrumors.com/2022/02/25/apple-explores-mac-insi... links to
3) This other article https://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2022/02/apple-i... which links to
4) The patent filing https://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=...
5) If you would like to review it yourself. As you review it, you will likely find out for yourself why patents are useless and exist only to create monopolies and harm innovation.
2) The article https://www.macrumors.com/2022/02/25/apple-explores-mac-insi... links to
3) This other article https://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2022/02/apple-i... which links to
4) The patent filing https://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=...
5) If you would like to review it yourself. As you review it, you will likely find out for yourself why patents are useless and exist only to create monopolies and harm innovation.
Commenter above explains it's a design patent, which are more specific: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30467500
I am the commenter above.
I'm not absolutely certain it's a design patent application, actually. I thought it was, but I would very happily be corrected by someone with deeper knowledge, and please please ignore me if I am wrong!
Apple definitely uses patents in some of the same international classes to protect their product designs.
e.g. they are using the international class G06F 1/16 20060101 G06F001/16 for this one, among others.
Here's another Apple patent in that class that seems to cover aspects of the use of in-display cameras (by covering the idea of an extended display area around a notch).
https://uspto.report/patent/app/20190043452
Apple also uses it for very specific design aspects of an accessory keyboard hinge:
https://uspto.report/patent/app/20200301480
Here's an HP laptop-related patent in that class, that seems to cover really very narrow aspects of the design of a laptop enclosure:
https://uspto.report/patent/app/20200381801
And here's a touch panel design for an LG domestic appliance:
https://uspto.report/patent/app/20210048935
Whatever it is about this particular class of patents (whether they become design patents or not) does not seem to really be holding back innovation.
So instead of seeing these used as a "we thought of this whole new thing, you can't make anything remotely like it" patent for a new technology, these are more "these are the minute aspects of our designs that we claim are our work that you shouldn't copy".
It hasn't stopped other manufacturers using a notch, or an in-display camera.
It's more like they are a way to register a design that can be brought up in court when e.g. Apple accuses Samsung of stealing design IP.
I'm not absolutely certain it's a design patent application, actually. I thought it was, but I would very happily be corrected by someone with deeper knowledge, and please please ignore me if I am wrong!
Apple definitely uses patents in some of the same international classes to protect their product designs.
e.g. they are using the international class G06F 1/16 20060101 G06F001/16 for this one, among others.
Here's another Apple patent in that class that seems to cover aspects of the use of in-display cameras (by covering the idea of an extended display area around a notch).
https://uspto.report/patent/app/20190043452
Apple also uses it for very specific design aspects of an accessory keyboard hinge:
https://uspto.report/patent/app/20200301480
Here's an HP laptop-related patent in that class, that seems to cover really very narrow aspects of the design of a laptop enclosure:
https://uspto.report/patent/app/20200381801
And here's a touch panel design for an LG domestic appliance:
https://uspto.report/patent/app/20210048935
Whatever it is about this particular class of patents (whether they become design patents or not) does not seem to really be holding back innovation.
So instead of seeing these used as a "we thought of this whole new thing, you can't make anything remotely like it" patent for a new technology, these are more "these are the minute aspects of our designs that we claim are our work that you shouldn't copy".
It hasn't stopped other manufacturers using a notch, or an in-display camera.
It's more like they are a way to register a design that can be brought up in court when e.g. Apple accuses Samsung of stealing design IP.
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If they move forward with their VR headset, that seems like a useful compliment.
This is exactly what I was thinking. If the video processor was in a headset, this would basically mean that you could get better ergonomics than a laptop while remote and your work would be private. you could work outside with no glare, you could work on confidential stuff on an airplane, and, you are suddenly given the possibility of endless monitor.
I'm in.
I'm in.
In some embodiments, the device includes a trackpad "coupled" to the enclosure, while in others the device is foldable and the keyboard area includes an "accessory display" showing graphics, or the keyboard itself is virtually displayed from a projector contained inside the enclosure.
The keyboard could be completely virtual or there could be a smaller display and track pad built in.
I'm waiting for the day where I can plug my iphone into my screen and have a full os show up. Apple seems like the perfect company to build that.
You can with at many android phones. The only big brand I know of is Samsung, but I use an iPhone, so I haven't bothered to look into how widely this is among Android devices.
Samsung have Dex which is basically this but for android devices obviously. It's "ok" but its still android underneath.
Had Dex, it was discontinued last month: https://androidcommunity.com/samsung-to-discontinue-dex-for-...
No, that is not at all what your link says. The article is talking about a specific software named "DeX for PC, Mac", DeX itself is not discontinued.
Whoops! I appreciate the correction; I'll leave the comment there in case someone else thinks the same thing.
Looks like they only discontinued pre-Windows 10 and MacOS support. Windows 10+ still seems to be supported.
It feels like we’re a long way from that but headed in that direction with everything being on the same architecture now. This was much harder to see with intel in the picture.
Apple is diametrically opposed to cannibalizing their own hardware market. If such a product ever does exist, it will likely exist in the form of an arbitrary $600 accessory.
If that were true as a general rule, they’d still be trying to sell iPods and you wouldn’t be able to play music from an iPhone…
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The confusing, overlapping MacBook lineup at various times is at odds with this assessment, I'd have thought.
I don’t think we’ll ever see that. Without the plug, maybe, but with one? I don’t see that happen.
A Raspberry Pi 400-size ARM-based Mac, maybe with an A15 CPU/SoC (similar to the Mac Mini ARM developer transition kit, which had an A12Z) could be an interesting low-cost option.
It would probably still require 8 GB RAM to be useful unless Apple manages to reduce the RAM requirements of macOS significantly. This amount of RAM will probably be too expensive for a low-cost device.
Edit: fixed CPU info for the ARM Mac DTK
It would probably still require 8 GB RAM to be useful unless Apple manages to reduce the RAM requirements of macOS significantly. This amount of RAM will probably be too expensive for a low-cost device.
Edit: fixed CPU info for the ARM Mac DTK
Why would it need to run macOS? If it is a companion to a headset, it could run some version of iOS/iPadOS. or maybe even something dedicated like vrOS
Sure, the systems are similar enough on kernel level (and I also want to run macOS on my M1 iPad Pro 11", the SoC is identical to M1 Macs :)) - but then the user would have the hassle of getting an external touchscreen to work with a keyboard-oriented computer. I think that Apple's multitouch implementation helps a lot to make iOS/iPadOS as comfortable to use as it is right now. An external touchscreen, possibly connected via USB, will probably have higher latencies and maybe also less precision.
I can't imagine using i(Pad)OS with mouse and keyboard only right now, though I know it's possible.
I can't imagine using i(Pad)OS with mouse and keyboard only right now, though I know it's possible.
It’s a patent. I don’t see why Apple actually would build this. This is basically putting an iMac in the keyboard and connecting it to a display via USB-C. And the display would need external power.
If anything, this a step backwards from what an iMac is. It adds a completely unnecessary second wire.
That’s before you look at price. The M1 iMac is US$ 1,299. Or the lack of Retina resolution USB-C monitors on the market.
If you want something this compact, Apple would have you get a MacBook Air for US$ 999.
If anything, this a step backwards from what an iMac is. It adds a completely unnecessary second wire.
That’s before you look at price. The M1 iMac is US$ 1,299. Or the lack of Retina resolution USB-C monitors on the market.
If you want something this compact, Apple would have you get a MacBook Air for US$ 999.
It could be for education, which is a market that Apple has shown a lazy and self-sabotaging disregard for, for almost ten years.
They could be putting hardware as modest as an A14 iPad in there, basically. We know that hardware can run macOS.
Are there not displays with USB-C power buses now?
They could be putting hardware as modest as an A14 iPad in there, basically. We know that hardware can run macOS.
Are there not displays with USB-C power buses now?
How is this better than a laptop for education? Most schools have laptop carts that they wheel into classrooms in lieu of dedicated computer labs I think.
> Are there not displays with USB-C power buses now?
Retina display.
Retina display.
For education, they’re always thinking long term. If schools can afford this product and teach kids Swift then that’ll encourage them to join the developer ecosystem later on. It doesn’t have to be a “pro” product.
Not sure why you're comparing it to an iMac...
POS Systems.
I'd rather have mac-inside-a-monitor like imac. Apple's keyboards are one of their weakest products, while their monitors are decent.
Same. This product is not for us.
It's definitely for me -- I'd love one, if it has a built-in Magic Trackpad and if the small high def portable monitor market can catch up.
So it's a laptop without a monitor.
I could really see this working for education, libraries, coffee shops, terminals, anywhere really. It needs a reliable locking mechanism. Unless it's issued with a mouse and every desk has a monitor & hookup it's gonna end up walking away at some point. It needs to be robust, spill-proof, slam proof.
Decent-enough monitors are cheap as hell, schools should be buying bulk displays given how fast they can be damaged. It's a lot cheaper to swap out an older Dell display than it is to replace a whole iMac.
Decent-enough monitors are cheap as hell, schools should be buying bulk displays given how fast they can be damaged. It's a lot cheaper to swap out an older Dell display than it is to replace a whole iMac.
By “imagines” they mean “tries to patent”
Even our fucked up patent system is unlikely to grant this, so why are they even trying? Is this just busy work for their overpaid legal teams?
Even our fucked up patent system is unlikely to grant this, so why are they even trying? Is this just busy work for their overpaid legal teams?
Patents like this definitely get granted, all the time, and at scale. Have a look at one of the international patent classes they are using -- google other patents in that class.
They are seemingly a way to register a product's technical design for protection, rather than an outrageous fictitious claim of innovation over something that has been around 40 years. They contain unusually detailed (rather than abstracted) sketches, they contain some very specific measurements in specific claims.
I think some of the more egregious uses of patents in the past have blinded us to the sheer scale of the use of the international patent system to protect designs from copycats and to allow companies to develop unique design languages.
I think we may often misunderstand why patent claims are structured as they are with seemingly obvious introductory claims. It's because a patent has to be self-contained, as far as I understand it at least?
They are seemingly a way to register a product's technical design for protection, rather than an outrageous fictitious claim of innovation over something that has been around 40 years. They contain unusually detailed (rather than abstracted) sketches, they contain some very specific measurements in specific claims.
I think some of the more egregious uses of patents in the past have blinded us to the sheer scale of the use of the international patent system to protect designs from copycats and to allow companies to develop unique design languages.
I think we may often misunderstand why patent claims are structured as they are with seemingly obvious introductory claims. It's because a patent has to be self-contained, as far as I understand it at least?
If you had an unlimited war chest you would do the same before your competitor does and you end up in a lengthy legal battle.
It makes sense. Apple is always looking to create the most minimalist computers possible. What could be more minimalist than a keyboard that plugs into a monitor via USB-C?
This could easily be a return to a $500 entry level computer for Apple. Will they do it? Who knows. It might not have the margins or volume they are looking for, but it also could a great entry point to introduce people to the Mac.
This could easily be a return to a $500 entry level computer for Apple. Will they do it? Who knows. It might not have the margins or volume they are looking for, but it also could a great entry point to introduce people to the Mac.
If they want to continue their push into services then having more entry level devices might make sense. They already sell Apple TV which starts at $149 so there is a precedent for lower cost devices.
As some form of an input device is often required for interacting or interfacing with a computing device, including computing components within the housing or enclosure of an input device can eliminate the need for redundant sets of input devices and reduces the number of components that need to be transported by the user.
Dibs on patenting the computer inside a mouse.
Dibs on patenting the computer inside a mouse.
If I remember rightly, Apple once patented a hard drive inside a mouse - so you could take your home folder/full OS with you wherever you went.
I think the Magic Mouse has an ARM processor in it as does the current keyboard.
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Why are we discussing patents? They mean nothing, it’s just a way for engineers to make some extra money, organizations to defend in lawsuits and trolls to survive and show us how absurd patents are.
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Isn't a laptop just a computer integrated into a keyboard, plus a detachable screen?
Personally: I'd rather have a laptop with a detachable screen; or some kind of clamshell I could slip the keyboard into.
Personally: I'd rather have a laptop with a detachable screen; or some kind of clamshell I could slip the keyboard into.
I could see this as a replacement for Mac mini. However patents often don’t revolve into actual products so who knows.
Every patent I found when I googled the patent class above is really talking about a product that exists.
I think there's a very good chance that this device is close to market.
I think there's a very good chance that this device is close to market.
Like an iPod Touch with a keyboard instead of a screen. Uh, am I missing the innovation somewhere?
Make it more like a laptop whiteout a screen but with a full sized trackpad and I will buy it !
I'd buy this instantly!
you re going to need a power supply anyway so why not put the computer in it? Less heating for your fingers