Ask HN: How do you deal with life altering decisions?
E.g should I go and live the USA or stay in India?
Should I choose career over being close to my family?
How many children do I want to have?
How much is too much of pressure especially for high-achivers?
40 comments
Bite the bullet and jump.
I wrote a long blog post about this called "Impossibility Space," if anyone is interested: https://www.sonyasupposedly.com/impossibility-space/
> There are social consequences to iconoclasm, regardless of whether challenging a given sanctified consensus turns out to be "correct" or "on the right side of history" in retrospect. You must be brave enough, foolhardy and cocky enough, to attempt the impossible — and you must endure the social cost — if you want to accomplish anything new. There's no other way to find out whether your idea will work, since you'll always be told that it won't.
This applies even if "something new" is just new for you, not new in general.
I wrote a long blog post about this called "Impossibility Space," if anyone is interested: https://www.sonyasupposedly.com/impossibility-space/
> There are social consequences to iconoclasm, regardless of whether challenging a given sanctified consensus turns out to be "correct" or "on the right side of history" in retrospect. You must be brave enough, foolhardy and cocky enough, to attempt the impossible — and you must endure the social cost — if you want to accomplish anything new. There's no other way to find out whether your idea will work, since you'll always be told that it won't.
This applies even if "something new" is just new for you, not new in general.
whoa didn't realize you were on hn too. Constant vigilance!
If you really need to evaluate it systematically, you can work out a risk-reward analysis. Basically, you make a little grid where the rows are labeled with your possible choices, and the columns are labeled with the possible outcomes. In each square, you give each choice/outcome combo a score, higher if you think it's a better result, lower if it's not as good, and negative if it's a bad result. You also include in that square a percentage (between 0 and 1) of what you estimate to be the likelihood of that outcome if you make that choice.
When you've got all the data filled in, go through and multiply every score by its corresponding likelihood. When you're done, the box with the highest resulting value is your best option.
So to use your first question as an example: "should I go and live in the USA or stay in India?" The rows would be labeled with "USA" and "India", the columns with (to be general) "I have a happy life" and "I am unhappy". You pick scores for "I move to the USA and am happy", "I move to the USA and am unhappy", "I stay in India and am happy", and "I stay in India and am unhappy". Pick scores that represent the relative goodness/badness of that outcome in your opinion. Then you estimate the chances of being happy or unhappy in the US and India and multiply the scores out. The highest score is what you should do.
This is, of course, assuming you need a systematic analysis of your decision; sometimes, you just have to go with your gut and accept the risks if it doesn't work out.
When you've got all the data filled in, go through and multiply every score by its corresponding likelihood. When you're done, the box with the highest resulting value is your best option.
So to use your first question as an example: "should I go and live in the USA or stay in India?" The rows would be labeled with "USA" and "India", the columns with (to be general) "I have a happy life" and "I am unhappy". You pick scores for "I move to the USA and am happy", "I move to the USA and am unhappy", "I stay in India and am happy", and "I stay in India and am unhappy". Pick scores that represent the relative goodness/badness of that outcome in your opinion. Then you estimate the chances of being happy or unhappy in the US and India and multiply the scores out. The highest score is what you should do.
This is, of course, assuming you need a systematic analysis of your decision; sometimes, you just have to go with your gut and accept the risks if it doesn't work out.
Before going somewhere to live it helps to visit first. That advice goes well for careers too, take a tour, do some interviews, visit before committing.
I live in the USA, it's a place of wealth and a place of poverty(Ex. homeless camps in San Fransico), two different worlds within a block of each other in the same city. So one who isn't from here or even one who is but lives pretty one sidedly from one side of those two worlds may not see it clearly. I've not even touched on how different it is from state to state, living in Kansas is vastly different from New York. Most of my friends who have moved here or were thinking of moving here have found out that it wasn't as good as they thought, meanwhile a lot of my friends that have grown up here are looking to immigrate to europe, the pay is less (sometimes as low as half) but the life is better is the short answer. But in many ways if you want to make a dent in the universe or make a lot of money, the US is still the place to be. So just to reemphasize the first point, before commiting; do research, ask questions, take a trip to visit.
As for career vs family, is anyone happy with choosing career first? That would depend on the quality of the family vs the quailty of the career. Like that quote from "stranger than fiction" I'm paraphrasing but "between choosing life and pancakes, it depends on the type of life and the quality of the pancakes". One needs money to live, but how do they live once they have money, why did they want money in the first place?
As for pressure, I have no idea, but I do know that if it has caused you burnout, then one should ease up from then on.
I live in the USA, it's a place of wealth and a place of poverty(Ex. homeless camps in San Fransico), two different worlds within a block of each other in the same city. So one who isn't from here or even one who is but lives pretty one sidedly from one side of those two worlds may not see it clearly. I've not even touched on how different it is from state to state, living in Kansas is vastly different from New York. Most of my friends who have moved here or were thinking of moving here have found out that it wasn't as good as they thought, meanwhile a lot of my friends that have grown up here are looking to immigrate to europe, the pay is less (sometimes as low as half) but the life is better is the short answer. But in many ways if you want to make a dent in the universe or make a lot of money, the US is still the place to be. So just to reemphasize the first point, before commiting; do research, ask questions, take a trip to visit.
As for career vs family, is anyone happy with choosing career first? That would depend on the quality of the family vs the quailty of the career. Like that quote from "stranger than fiction" I'm paraphrasing but "between choosing life and pancakes, it depends on the type of life and the quality of the pancakes". One needs money to live, but how do they live once they have money, why did they want money in the first place?
As for pressure, I have no idea, but I do know that if it has caused you burnout, then one should ease up from then on.
I'm going to guess you're not in a long term relationship here.
In the best possible way, I've not made a life-altering decision like those you describe completely on my own in over a decade. Nor has my partner. Everything is compromise, working and talking through things. It can take years to happen, can sometimes make up our minds in hours. Big deal stuff, like which (often war-torn) country we'll live in next.
Funniest thing, the dog was the biggest change. Now a major factor in all big life plans. Guess it's more so if you have kids.
If none of that's influencing your planning, then go for the long shots. They'll be harder to take when you're making decisions that involve others directly.
In the best possible way, I've not made a life-altering decision like those you describe completely on my own in over a decade. Nor has my partner. Everything is compromise, working and talking through things. It can take years to happen, can sometimes make up our minds in hours. Big deal stuff, like which (often war-torn) country we'll live in next.
Funniest thing, the dog was the biggest change. Now a major factor in all big life plans. Guess it's more so if you have kids.
If none of that's influencing your planning, then go for the long shots. They'll be harder to take when you're making decisions that involve others directly.
My advice is, if you have a happy life, do not disrupt it in the hope of regaining the happiness once more in some other place.
Any decision can be life-altering. In fact the most mundane decisions can be life altering. You can go to a farmers market this weekend and meet your life partner. Or not. You'd never think about it.
Don't sweat these things. Follow what seems to be calling to you.
Don't sweat these things. Follow what seems to be calling to you.
To answer the title, but not the several questions in the body of your text:
Learn to live without regrets (like who you are and realize that a different past would essentially be killing your current self), and be adaptable to whatever changes come.
Learn to live without regrets (like who you are and realize that a different past would essentially be killing your current self), and be adaptable to whatever changes come.
>should I go and live the USA or stay in India?
you could always move back?
> How many children do I want to have You decide after the first one if you wanna have a second. After the second if you wanna have a third.
You can't plan everything in advanced
> How many children do I want to have You decide after the first one if you wanna have a second. After the second if you wanna have a third.
You can't plan everything in advanced
I start by making the decision. Wait a day, then see how I feel about it. If I’m reasonably confident, I go to a few people that I trust and tell them about the decision I made. I get feedback, and take some time to process it. Adjust my decision if necessary, and if so repeat the process.
If there’s a time limit (decision needs to be made by this day) I still go about the same process, but if I’m not 100% confident by the deadline I don’t make the decision (as in, whatever decision is made by default or which minimizes change).
If there’s a time limit (decision needs to be made by this day) I still go about the same process, but if I’m not 100% confident by the deadline I don’t make the decision (as in, whatever decision is made by default or which minimizes change).
My advice is to seek advice from people who know you and care about you, not from the internet.
What would you take a bullet for? What would you give up all the money in the world for?
Frequently it's family, especially parents, children, spouse, maybe a close uncle or a dog.
You may be willing to die for your country. By association that means fighting corruption, improving infrastructure or the economy, social mobility, preserving culture, etc. Similarly for a religion.
It can be a virtue. A willingness to die for truth, justice, beauty, generosity, and so forth.
And it can be career related. A lot of people risk death for a sport. Some for exploration. John Romero would take a beating from his dad to play video games. There might be that one thing you wouldn't be satisfied dying if you don't accomplish it.
Everyone is unique and have different things. And they will tell you how dumb it is to die for your country or your job. It's fine to listen to them, but you still have to be honest with yourself. Don't follow the masses.
If there's nothing, then that means you love nothing and are dead inside. Then your goal should be finding something you love.
So you should list the things worth dying for. Sometimes you have to pick one over the other. These things can also change. Some need to change, e.g. you may be willing to die for a spouse, but end up separated, and have to move on.
Love isn't always a positive emotion. It can hurt you. Often you have to stop loving something. This will kill a part of you; your identity morphs, you become a different person. A caterpillar digests itself to become a butterfly. This leaves them vulnerable. A lot of people do not like that vulnerability, so they don't go through the process. But it's best to be in control and choose which path you don't take instead of being stuck at that fork.
Frequently it's family, especially parents, children, spouse, maybe a close uncle or a dog.
You may be willing to die for your country. By association that means fighting corruption, improving infrastructure or the economy, social mobility, preserving culture, etc. Similarly for a religion.
It can be a virtue. A willingness to die for truth, justice, beauty, generosity, and so forth.
And it can be career related. A lot of people risk death for a sport. Some for exploration. John Romero would take a beating from his dad to play video games. There might be that one thing you wouldn't be satisfied dying if you don't accomplish it.
Everyone is unique and have different things. And they will tell you how dumb it is to die for your country or your job. It's fine to listen to them, but you still have to be honest with yourself. Don't follow the masses.
If there's nothing, then that means you love nothing and are dead inside. Then your goal should be finding something you love.
So you should list the things worth dying for. Sometimes you have to pick one over the other. These things can also change. Some need to change, e.g. you may be willing to die for a spouse, but end up separated, and have to move on.
Love isn't always a positive emotion. It can hurt you. Often you have to stop loving something. This will kill a part of you; your identity morphs, you become a different person. A caterpillar digests itself to become a butterfly. This leaves them vulnerable. A lot of people do not like that vulnerability, so they don't go through the process. But it's best to be in control and choose which path you don't take instead of being stuck at that fork.
Make your Decision and learn to live with the Consequences, Good or Bad; That's it.
Sometimes you may get the lucky chance to rollback a decision and start over for a second try; those are the "recoverable" decisions where you learn valuable life lessons by living through consequences for a short while before escaping them.
True "life altering decisions" do not allow a "do over". You have to change yourself both mentally and physically to adapt and learn to live with the consequences. If things go bad, it can be very hard and may even break you but you have to deal with it.
The key is to identify whether a decision is going to be "life altering" or not. If the former, then take your time, talk to as many relevant knowledgeable people (not random!) as possible to understand the consequences well and then arrive at a decision.
Sometimes you may get the lucky chance to rollback a decision and start over for a second try; those are the "recoverable" decisions where you learn valuable life lessons by living through consequences for a short while before escaping them.
True "life altering decisions" do not allow a "do over". You have to change yourself both mentally and physically to adapt and learn to live with the consequences. If things go bad, it can be very hard and may even break you but you have to deal with it.
The key is to identify whether a decision is going to be "life altering" or not. If the former, then take your time, talk to as many relevant knowledgeable people (not random!) as possible to understand the consequences well and then arrive at a decision.
These are interesting books on decision making under uncertainty. The author is very aggressive, but the books are interesting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb#Incerto
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb#Incerto
Go nuts. Rethink everything a million times. Sleep on it. Think about it in the light of past life altering decissions. Do it. If you regret it try cycling back if you can, retrace your steps. Go nuts, overthink it get a better and better model of how the world works. E.g after renting three apartments you will know more about the intricacies of the housing market this may or may not help you when renting a fourth apartment, after living in three countries you will know more about geopolitics and cultural diversity, this may or may not increase your happiness. Ultimately there are a lot of tiny and big life decission that will have a huge impact on your life quality, with most of them there is no real way of knowing beforehand how they will impact your life quality short-term and long-term. You just gotta wing it, that's life ...
The answer differs from person to person. Rationally, the decision process should be the same for small decisions and big decisions if one is being consistent. Or maybe apply your middle sized decision making process and see what needs to be tweaked after big life decision 1 for big life decision 2.
I think you should try to frame it differently:
- without notions of pressure from either social or personal ambition.
* if you want to give something a go, do it. Just don't hang it up on what others might think, or on some grandiose image.
- would a choice still be a success if it didn't match your ideal:
* if you get a less than ideal job in the US but you appreciate the adventure and opportunity?
* how about to a different country?
- can you appreciate the value of change itself? People grow and have rich lives through experiences.
- Choices are not right or wrong, its exploration following this semi meandering path with no clear destination. You can backtrack, change, explore, revisit etc.
- The children one you will have to figure out with your partner (And on your own) along the way.
- without notions of pressure from either social or personal ambition.
* if you want to give something a go, do it. Just don't hang it up on what others might think, or on some grandiose image.
- would a choice still be a success if it didn't match your ideal:
* if you get a less than ideal job in the US but you appreciate the adventure and opportunity?
* how about to a different country?
- can you appreciate the value of change itself? People grow and have rich lives through experiences.
- Choices are not right or wrong, its exploration following this semi meandering path with no clear destination. You can backtrack, change, explore, revisit etc.
- The children one you will have to figure out with your partner (And on your own) along the way.
I use a regret minimization framework: which choice will I regret most if I don't do it? Some choices I've made are definitely life altering: getting married in my early 20s, moving far away from family. Some choices that seemed life altering at the time didn't turn out to be so : going to school at X, starting a company, etc.
If you are concerned a lot about the road not traveled, ask yourself what you will do if Plan X does not work out. Having a good backup plan can make life altering decisions a little less scary : relationships don't work out, your startup flames out, the things you actually want at 30 aren't what you thought you would want at 30.
If you are concerned a lot about the road not traveled, ask yourself what you will do if Plan X does not work out. Having a good backup plan can make life altering decisions a little less scary : relationships don't work out, your startup flames out, the things you actually want at 30 aren't what you thought you would want at 30.
This is one of the most difficult things in life. Part of the problem is that the answers are specific to a specific individual, but so are the best ways to go about deciding them, and you don't know beforehand.
I've approached these things in different ways, from tabulating the pros and cons, and what's important to me, and weighing all those things together (there are calculators for this). That was helpful in getting me to think about the issues involved, but not really insightful, and I'm not sure how much closer that approach ever got me to making a decision I felt comfortable with.
A therapist once told me (and I've read similar advice) that ideally, you want to make these types of decisions in such a way that even if things don't work out the way you want them to, you can be happy with the decision you made. That is, you can look back and say "these were the values I had in making this decision, and even if things didn't turn out the way I wanted, I can be happy with what I was hoping would happen in making this decision." That is helpful in some ways, but not really if different values are being pitted against one another. It's also the case that what you think will be important to you isn't really, or that what you want isn't really what you thought.
Reading about or talking to others who have been in similar experiences, and made one or another decision can also be really helpful, but in my experience there's often something not quite the same that's critical. That is, my decision was never quite the same as someone elses, and we weren't really in the same situation.
Ideally you want things to be reversible in some way, that you can go back later if things didn't turn out the way you wanted. Sometimes this is more possible than you realize, or works out in ways you don't anticipate. E.g., maybe you could choose to return to India later. Maybe your family will unexpectedly decide to go with you. Maybe something else will happen that will make the choice moot. But sometimes things are less reversible, which is also something to consider.
To be honest, in the end you just have to go with what you're most comfortable with, while recognizing that you might not be really comfortable with any of the options.
I've approached these things in different ways, from tabulating the pros and cons, and what's important to me, and weighing all those things together (there are calculators for this). That was helpful in getting me to think about the issues involved, but not really insightful, and I'm not sure how much closer that approach ever got me to making a decision I felt comfortable with.
A therapist once told me (and I've read similar advice) that ideally, you want to make these types of decisions in such a way that even if things don't work out the way you want them to, you can be happy with the decision you made. That is, you can look back and say "these were the values I had in making this decision, and even if things didn't turn out the way I wanted, I can be happy with what I was hoping would happen in making this decision." That is helpful in some ways, but not really if different values are being pitted against one another. It's also the case that what you think will be important to you isn't really, or that what you want isn't really what you thought.
Reading about or talking to others who have been in similar experiences, and made one or another decision can also be really helpful, but in my experience there's often something not quite the same that's critical. That is, my decision was never quite the same as someone elses, and we weren't really in the same situation.
Ideally you want things to be reversible in some way, that you can go back later if things didn't turn out the way you wanted. Sometimes this is more possible than you realize, or works out in ways you don't anticipate. E.g., maybe you could choose to return to India later. Maybe your family will unexpectedly decide to go with you. Maybe something else will happen that will make the choice moot. But sometimes things are less reversible, which is also something to consider.
To be honest, in the end you just have to go with what you're most comfortable with, while recognizing that you might not be really comfortable with any of the options.
When choosing between A and B, talk to 3 people who chose A, and 3 people who chose B, and ask them why they made that choice, and whether in retrospect they still think it was the right choice.
Roll a dice (odd=yes, even=no)
Then if you don't like the outcome, roll it again.
Then if you don't like the outcome, roll it again.
A la The Dice Man: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dice_Man
Funny thing is that if you are tempted to roll again, then you know that in your heart you wanted the opposite answer.
If you don't like what the die says, ignore it.
Have a listen to the Art of Manliness podcast, episode #774: How to Make Life’s Big Decisions
https://www.artofmanliness.com/character/advice/decision-tim...
Once you realize the “life altering” decisions are not any different than any decision - you just make them as you usually do.
This is a great book about it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unbearable_Lightness_of_Be...
This is a great book about it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unbearable_Lightness_of_Be...
>Once you realize the “life altering” decisions are not any different than any decision
No, this is a dangerous viewpoint to have and should never be followed.
No, this is a dangerous viewpoint to have and should never be followed.
Any support of your opinion?
At least some book as I referenced or something?
At least some book as I referenced or something?
It is commonsense; all decisions are not in the same category.
If you need specific references, Nassim Taleb's books are a good place to start. His book The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable divides events into two categories; Extremistan and Mediocristan. Events/Decisions in the former can have extreme unpredictable non-linear effects while those in the latter are more sedate and have predictable cumulative effects. An example is the earning capacity of A Dentist (steady regular income with a predictable statistical model i.e. Mediocristan) vs. A Venture Capitalist (unpredictable, large risks, all his bets might fail or one may become a unicorn i.e. Extremistan).
For a comprehensive study of decision-making, see the excellent Thinking and Deciding by Jonathan Baron.
If you need specific references, Nassim Taleb's books are a good place to start. His book The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable divides events into two categories; Extremistan and Mediocristan. Events/Decisions in the former can have extreme unpredictable non-linear effects while those in the latter are more sedate and have predictable cumulative effects. An example is the earning capacity of A Dentist (steady regular income with a predictable statistical model i.e. Mediocristan) vs. A Venture Capitalist (unpredictable, large risks, all his bets might fail or one may become a unicorn i.e. Extremistan).
For a comprehensive study of decision-making, see the excellent Thinking and Deciding by Jonathan Baron.
What it has to do with personal decision making?
Assuming your question is serious; Any "Decision" is an "Event" with some consequences which carry a "Risk". The idea is to learn to recognize and quantify it properly to a certain extent before making the Decision.
No, i mean what «black swan” book ideas (which I respect btw) derived from markets analysis etc has to do with “how many children should I have” decision?
This is exactly why I mentioned the book I mentioned. It describes one brilliant piece of philosophy in the domain of personal life decision making.
This is exactly why I mentioned the book I mentioned. It describes one brilliant piece of philosophy in the domain of personal life decision making.
If I find myself having a hard time with a big decision, that almost certainly means both sides have pros and cons and its a very close decision. If one side had way more pros and less cons, it would be a pretty easy decision. If its a very close decision, one side can't be much worse than the other. Flip a coin.
Regret Minimization Framework is part of it.
part of it is the social research and practical experience that seems to validate that general idea.
consult with friends untli you find the friend that is willing to tell you what you want to hear.
consult with a friend who i know is always right then do the other thing.
part of it is the social research and practical experience that seems to validate that general idea.
consult with friends untli you find the friend that is willing to tell you what you want to hear.
consult with a friend who i know is always right then do the other thing.
This may be of some help: how to make hard choices by philosopher Ruth Chiang https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8GQZuzIdeQQ
Flip a coin? People overestimate the importance of life altering decisions. In the end the outcome will be mostly random and the choices you list above will have a relatively minor impact on your future success and happiness.
Do what YOU really want to do so if things go wrong later you're not resentful about not having tried for what you wanted? It's harder to have regrets if you tried for what you really wanted.
Jeff Bezos’s “regret minimization framework” is pretty good: https://youtu.be/jwG_qR6XmDQ
Flip a coin. Then maybe decide that's crazy and talk to my partner. Seems to work so far. Best of luck.