School’s out for summer and many teachers are calling it quits(wsj.com)
wsj.com
School’s out for summer and many teachers are calling it quits
https://www.wsj.com/articles/schools-out-for-summer-and-many-teachers-are-calling-it-quits-11655732689
118 comments
Who can blame them; asides from low pay, two things stick with me; many of our friends are teachers, when we get together and there are a couple of drinks, if a photo is taken the teachers in the group reflexively hide their drink out of sight. They’re afraid it might be used against them by parents or a hostile school administration. I had a friend who was wearing something low cut and asked me not to post a group photo for the same reason. That feels like such a violation and outrageous that teachers have to live like nuns in their private lives.
The other, lack of respect or deference. My kid knows his teacher’s first name. That’s just weird to me for some reason.
Male teachers have their own set of challenges: https://jakeseliger.com/2014/09/08/why-dont-more-men-go-into... that likely dissuade many from entering the field.
> Yet that person can’t forma genuine connection without being able to spend at least some one-on-one time with some students.
I don't understand this sentence. I'm from Germany but I don't remember a single time I've had any kind of one-on-one input from any teacher. Been a while that I went to school, but even if I take all my Hollywood High School impressions as fact.. our school system is just so different - my time at school was 8am to 1pm for most of my 13 (regular) years.
If I follow your reasoning none of us Germans was ever compelled to anything. I'd say it's totally possible to form a bond with teachers (or vice versa) - maybe it's more about smaller class groups (as we have in the last 2 years, only 10-15 people instead of the usual 25-30)
// edit: This is not about your overall point here, but I feel this is a key argument that is worth debating on its own
I don't understand this sentence. I'm from Germany but I don't remember a single time I've had any kind of one-on-one input from any teacher. Been a while that I went to school, but even if I take all my Hollywood High School impressions as fact.. our school system is just so different - my time at school was 8am to 1pm for most of my 13 (regular) years.
If I follow your reasoning none of us Germans was ever compelled to anything. I'd say it's totally possible to form a bond with teachers (or vice versa) - maybe it's more about smaller class groups (as we have in the last 2 years, only 10-15 people instead of the usual 25-30)
// edit: This is not about your overall point here, but I feel this is a key argument that is worth debating on its own
This would definitely factor into my decision if I was considering entering the profession in 2022.
Why is it weird to know your teachers first name?
To me it seems absurd not to know your teachers first name.
To me it seems absurd not to know your teachers first name.
Growing up in Australia, calling a teacher by their first name as a student was incredibly disrespectful and worthy of being sent to the principal if done repeatedly. This often resulted in students never learning their teachers’ given names. Generally, adults—teachers or otherwise—expected to be called by their title and surname, and would likely correct a kid if addressed wrongly.
I rarely see kids out and about at all these days, and if they are, I never see them interacting with adults other than buying take-away. It’s a bit concerning, really.
I rarely see kids out and about at all these days, and if they are, I never see them interacting with adults other than buying take-away. It’s a bit concerning, really.
> Growing up in Australia, calling a teacher by their first name as a student was incredibly disrespectful and worthy of being sent to the principal if done repeatedly
Same in US. I have been out of school for a long time, but this was definitely was not something you did without consequences.
Same in US. I have been out of school for a long time, but this was definitely was not something you did without consequences.
Where I'm from in the US, I agree that it was very disrespectful to use a teacher's first name, though I don't feel like that made it a secret. I think I knew most of my teacher's first names.
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I had the same thing (also Australia), but it was common for us to know what the teacher's name was even if we didn't use it.
It's similar for military officers. They're expected to uphold high moral standards on and off duty. They're also held responsible for their kids' behavior.
It goes double when stationed in a foreign country. Officers and their families were required to behave as guests there.
Source: I'm an Air Force brat.
It goes double when stationed in a foreign country. Officers and their families were required to behave as guests there.
Source: I'm an Air Force brat.
Military officers and diplomats are pretty well compensated and have perks which include almost everything paid for. And also not having to deal with little kids creating havoc. Teachers have to deal with low pay, little benefits and being judged in their personal lives. Pretty much an awful deal.
Education in our modern knowledge based meritocratic society is LITERALLY a matter of life or death.
An entire person's future is decided at age 12. Get sent to the wrong high school and it has impact on your life expectancy FFS.
And yet teachers are chronically underpaid and underappreciated.
And yet teachers are chronically underpaid and underappreciated.
> An entire person's future is decided at age 12
Don't overstate your case.
Don't overstate your case.
> little benefits
Public school teachers get likely the best benefits package of any profession.
Teacher pay in the Seattle area is up into the 6 figures.
As for military officer pay, it's enough to finance a lower to middle class lifestyle.
Public school teachers get likely the best benefits package of any profession.
Teacher pay in the Seattle area is up into the 6 figures.
As for military officer pay, it's enough to finance a lower to middle class lifestyle.
What does "up into the 6 figures" mean?
If I read https://www.seattleschools.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Ce... correctly then indeed experienced non-supervisory teachers may make over $100K/year.
But if you're really considering the maximum, then military officer pay is up into the $200K range, says https://www.federalpay.org/military#officer .
If "6 figures" is supposed to be average or median, https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/public-scho... says "The average Public School Teacher salary in Seattle, WA is $60,126 as of June 28, 2022, but the range typically falls between $50,222 and $73,312", with the 90-percentile at $85K.
https://www.seattleschools.org/departments/finance/Budget/cu... says :
> For the 2021-22 school year, a teacher in Seattle Public Schools costs approximately $131,525. This includes base salary, time responsibility incentive (TRI), contract days, tech days, medical, and other benefits.
> Specific details include: Average Salary Total: $79,673 / Medical insurance: $12,212 / Other Benefits, and Payroll & Pension Taxes: $39,640 / Total Cost: $131,525
So that's 6 figures if you include all benefits.
But military officers also have other benefits besides salary, like VA services for life, housing, and commissary access.
As for "best benefits package of any profession", ... really? Better than, say, college president?
And all those benefits come from at most $51,852/year on average?
We software developers ("The average Software Developer salary is $70,497 as of June 28, 2022, but the salary range typically falls between $62,812 and $78,654." - https://www.salary.com/research/salary/recruiting/software-d...) have a higher salary than Seattle-area teachers.
Why are our benefits worse, and what can we do to make them better?
If I read https://www.seattleschools.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Ce... correctly then indeed experienced non-supervisory teachers may make over $100K/year.
But if you're really considering the maximum, then military officer pay is up into the $200K range, says https://www.federalpay.org/military#officer .
If "6 figures" is supposed to be average or median, https://www.salary.com/research/salary/benchmark/public-scho... says "The average Public School Teacher salary in Seattle, WA is $60,126 as of June 28, 2022, but the range typically falls between $50,222 and $73,312", with the 90-percentile at $85K.
https://www.seattleschools.org/departments/finance/Budget/cu... says :
> For the 2021-22 school year, a teacher in Seattle Public Schools costs approximately $131,525. This includes base salary, time responsibility incentive (TRI), contract days, tech days, medical, and other benefits.
> Specific details include: Average Salary Total: $79,673 / Medical insurance: $12,212 / Other Benefits, and Payroll & Pension Taxes: $39,640 / Total Cost: $131,525
So that's 6 figures if you include all benefits.
But military officers also have other benefits besides salary, like VA services for life, housing, and commissary access.
As for "best benefits package of any profession", ... really? Better than, say, college president?
And all those benefits come from at most $51,852/year on average?
We software developers ("The average Software Developer salary is $70,497 as of June 28, 2022, but the salary range typically falls between $62,812 and $78,654." - https://www.salary.com/research/salary/recruiting/software-d...) have a higher salary than Seattle-area teachers.
Why are our benefits worse, and what can we do to make them better?
You brought up software developers, and only mentioned salary. Again, talking salary without value of the benefits package is very incomplete and misleading.
Software developers don't get pensions for life, for example.
> college president?
Are there "entry level" positions for college presidents? Of course not. It's not really considered a category of profession.
Software developers don't get pensions for life, for example.
> college president?
Are there "entry level" positions for college presidents? Of course not. It's not really considered a category of profession.
Again, what does "up into the 6 figures" mean for both teacher and military officer pay?
Because I am unable to find a source for total benefits for software developer. Microsoft, as another Seattle-area company, offers 50% matching contributions to 401(k), stock and cash bonuses, child daycare accounts, life insurance, public transit card, and more. But other companies will differ.
Do you have any better numbers? You must have some idea, in order to judge that software developers have worse benefits than Seattle public school teachers.
A lot of government employees get pensions like public school teachers do, so what else do teachers have which makes it likely the best benefits package of any profession? What am I missing?
Since stock options, 50% matching to 401(k), etc are worse than what teachers get, what do software developers need to do to get a piece of that sweet pension benefit?
Negotiate better? Start a union? Get laws passed? Start online discussions about the poor benefits in software development?
Because I am unable to find a source for total benefits for software developer. Microsoft, as another Seattle-area company, offers 50% matching contributions to 401(k), stock and cash bonuses, child daycare accounts, life insurance, public transit card, and more. But other companies will differ.
Do you have any better numbers? You must have some idea, in order to judge that software developers have worse benefits than Seattle public school teachers.
A lot of government employees get pensions like public school teachers do, so what else do teachers have which makes it likely the best benefits package of any profession? What am I missing?
Since stock options, 50% matching to 401(k), etc are worse than what teachers get, what do software developers need to do to get a piece of that sweet pension benefit?
Negotiate better? Start a union? Get laws passed? Start online discussions about the poor benefits in software development?
The teacher union salaries + benefits are not sustainable. They're a gigantic problem for state governments, and there's a huge overhang of unfunded pension benefits that keeps getting kicked down the road.
While other government employee salaries + benefits are sustainable and funded?
What additional benefits do teachers get that make them so special?
Nothing stands out when I compare the teacher pension and state patrol pension at https://www.drs.wa.gov/plan/ .
Military officer pay is up into the 6 figures. Their pension is "monthly annuity for life after 20 years of service. The annuity is based on a calculation of 2% per year served." (https://www.usa.gov/military-pay ) which is what TRS-2 does (https://www.drs.wa.gov/plan/trs2/ ) for Washington teachers. Plus veterans get VA access and other benefits.
I don't see what makes teachers' benefits so special.
What additional benefits do teachers get that make them so special?
Nothing stands out when I compare the teacher pension and state patrol pension at https://www.drs.wa.gov/plan/ .
Military officer pay is up into the 6 figures. Their pension is "monthly annuity for life after 20 years of service. The annuity is based on a calculation of 2% per year served." (https://www.usa.gov/military-pay ) which is what TRS-2 does (https://www.drs.wa.gov/plan/trs2/ ) for Washington teachers. Plus veterans get VA access and other benefits.
I don't see what makes teachers' benefits so special.
Except the all-pervasive surveillance system used to enforce these "moral standards" on teachers was not only non-existent before 2008 or so -- but (up through the 90s) basically unthinkable.
"Thinkable" in science fiction, yes -- but not as something that could emerge, full force, in actual day-to-day reality.
"Thinkable" in science fiction, yes -- but not as something that could emerge, full force, in actual day-to-day reality.
I'd add business leaders who aren't Elon Musk.
I guess it’s culture and generational thing but when I was in high school in the early 00s a teacher sharing their first name was a form of building mutual respect.
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When I was at school, the full names of teachers were available. I think even in some kind of display cabinet on site and also in the school's official yearbook. Endof the 90s though, so before anyone cared about privacy :P (This is Germany btw, land of Google Maps blurring)
Students in Sweden use the teacher's first name. Today it is uncommon to hear people use proper titles.
Most suburbs are already net negative funding sinks for the cities nearest them. I wonder how much worse it's going to be in the aftermath of this trend.
I don’t know where people get this notion. It’s obviously not true except for a handful of cities. Most cities, like Baltimore or Newark, are fighting to annex the affluent suburbs around them.
They're fighting to annex them because they consume disproportionate resources, by concentrating the tax base in places that aren't required to pay into the city school system. It's not a subtle effect.
I feel like we’re talking past each other in what OP’s term “negative funding sinks” means. I took that to mean cities where the residents pay more than their share for infrastructure and services that benefit the larger metro region. So NYC would qualify, but Sam Francisco wouldn’t.
Baltimore is unique in that it is the largest independent city. It is not part of the county and therefore the city lines are very firm. Right across the city line is Towson a city of approximately 60,000. In any other area it would be part of the city.
Because of that by living outside of the zone they cannot attend those schools so they are not consuming local education dollars.
The whole point of being outside of the district is not having to attend the district's schools.
Literally turned down a job/relocation to Baltimore area because best proximity to the office meant my kids would likely have to be part of the Baltimore city school district and folks I knew from the area warned me about it’s challenges.
I could have moved outward and away into more rural Maryland, but then that would create a 90+ minute commute each way.
I could have moved outward and away into more rural Maryland, but then that would create a 90+ minute commute each way.
Sure. And this situation, repeated tens of thousands of times a year, is why the Baltimore city schools are so problematic. I'm not high-horsing you; I did the same thing with my kids. It was an amoral thing to do, but I did it anyways.
If they don’t send their kids to the city school system, why should they be expected to send their school tax dollars there?
The answer to this question is the same as "if parents in Lincoln Park (wealthy neighborhood) don't send their kids to school in Lawndale (poor neighborhood), why should they have to send their tax dollars there". The cities would make the argument that Oak Park and Evanston (wealthy suburbs adjacent to Chicago) are really just de facto private school systems, and should be folded into the city's school system.
The answer to the question boils down, deeper, to the question "if parents pay (taxes) for education, do they get to receive quality education in return", and even more controversial "and if they choose different education, do they get to to use those dollars".
I have 3 kids. I am pretty wealthy, even though people richer than me complain on this site about money. I do not have enough dollars to give my kids private schooling. At that point it is very disappointing to read schools consume 42000 per kid on average, per year. With that money, I could give all 3 kids a full private education, easy.
Meanwhile I have regular conflicts with teachers, that tend to boil down to 3 things: the kids have been seriously unfairly treated and eventually reacted strongly (although all 3 are girls, they do fighting sport for a long time), they were confronted with drugs (this is when I get mad at schools. Yes, we're talking primary school), or what the teachers are telling them is obvious bullshit, clear even to them (for example, one conflict was about Madagascar being in Italy). The teachers and the school treat us as enemies (with a few, very nice, much older, exceptions). They have called youth services on us, because of what we eventually found out are financial reasons (for them).
Meanwhile it is getting worse every year, by a lot. Most recently, parent teacher conferences are now only in group (meaning all parents that care to come at once), ONCE a year.
I am half tempted to ask my kids to beat up some random kid just so we'd actually be able to have a talk with a teacher ABOUT OUR KID. JUST ONCE. (again, with 2 very big exceptions that are individual teachers doing better)
Point is, the education in this school is bad ... and getting worse all the time. Homeschooling, of course, is not allowed here.
So I, as a parent, have a huge problem: 1) I cannot give my kids quality education, just don't have the money 2) I pay MORE for the bad education they get than I would pay for private education 3) There is an extreme discrepancy in the quality of education for my kids (one of those positive individual exceptional teachers is the teacher of ONE of my daughters) 4) I am treated as the enemy for bringing up very reasonable problems 5) I am treaded as the enemy by school management since I suggested one of our daughters be changed classes because she has the worst teacher 6) one teacher hates my daughter ... because I demand she get some real education after hours (mostly Khan academy)
FIVE, I have a dilemma. The private school has offered a scholarship for my eldest daughter, which the other ones probably won't get (doesn't make it free). Do I give her this opportunity, knowing I can't replicate it for my other kids, or do I deny it to her?
I have 3 kids. I am pretty wealthy, even though people richer than me complain on this site about money. I do not have enough dollars to give my kids private schooling. At that point it is very disappointing to read schools consume 42000 per kid on average, per year. With that money, I could give all 3 kids a full private education, easy.
Meanwhile I have regular conflicts with teachers, that tend to boil down to 3 things: the kids have been seriously unfairly treated and eventually reacted strongly (although all 3 are girls, they do fighting sport for a long time), they were confronted with drugs (this is when I get mad at schools. Yes, we're talking primary school), or what the teachers are telling them is obvious bullshit, clear even to them (for example, one conflict was about Madagascar being in Italy). The teachers and the school treat us as enemies (with a few, very nice, much older, exceptions). They have called youth services on us, because of what we eventually found out are financial reasons (for them).
Meanwhile it is getting worse every year, by a lot. Most recently, parent teacher conferences are now only in group (meaning all parents that care to come at once), ONCE a year.
I am half tempted to ask my kids to beat up some random kid just so we'd actually be able to have a talk with a teacher ABOUT OUR KID. JUST ONCE. (again, with 2 very big exceptions that are individual teachers doing better)
Point is, the education in this school is bad ... and getting worse all the time. Homeschooling, of course, is not allowed here.
So I, as a parent, have a huge problem: 1) I cannot give my kids quality education, just don't have the money 2) I pay MORE for the bad education they get than I would pay for private education 3) There is an extreme discrepancy in the quality of education for my kids (one of those positive individual exceptional teachers is the teacher of ONE of my daughters) 4) I am treated as the enemy for bringing up very reasonable problems 5) I am treaded as the enemy by school management since I suggested one of our daughters be changed classes because she has the worst teacher 6) one teacher hates my daughter ... because I demand she get some real education after hours (mostly Khan academy)
FIVE, I have a dilemma. The private school has offered a scholarship for my eldest daughter, which the other ones probably won't get (doesn't make it free). Do I give her this opportunity, knowing I can't replicate it for my other kids, or do I deny it to her?
Yes. The affluent ones. But most suburbs are not affluent.
Many of those suburbs mostly exist as a way to hoard wealth; high earners depend upon the city in order to gain their income and wealth, but use small enclaves to make sure their taxes do not get shared evenly.
So in that sense, they are net negatives in that they cause greater inequality. And inequality lessens the economic efficiency of capitalism and markets.
So in that sense, they are net negatives in that they cause greater inequality. And inequality lessens the economic efficiency of capitalism and markets.
Exactly. In Austin, there are the "cities" of Westlake Hills, Rollingwood and Sunset Valley, each with a couple hundred to a few thousand people, that exist just so their residents can take advantage of all Austin has to offer without actually paying for it. Sunset Valley is a neighborhood of just over a square mile that is completely enclosed by Austin.
Wow I just looked up Sunset Valley, population 700 and a median household income almost double that of Austin. They get fire, EMT and education services from the larger Austin area, but provide their own municipal police. Obviously all this requires a mayor and 5 city council members to manage.
There is even an enclave within the enclave that carves out a single medium density housing complex. Can't have the unwashed masses using any of THEIR community resources.
There is even an enclave within the enclave that carves out a single medium density housing complex. Can't have the unwashed masses using any of THEIR community resources.
They outsource and pay for the Fire and EMT services they receive, not sure on education but would stand to reason that it is passed through as well.
https://www.sunsetvalley.org/home/showpublisheddocument/8/63...
https://www.sunsetvalley.org/home/showpublisheddocument/8/63...
Take Silicon Valley as an example. What exactly does San Francisco offer to the valley? The tech industry developed in the suburbs and the city later got the benefits. Northern VA and DC have a similar relationship. Virginia did all the investment to attract tech companies to the area; DC is getting the benefits because young people enjoy living in the city. In the DC metro area, most of the GDP base is outside the city. Same for Atlanta.
Some cities, typically pre-war ones, are an exception, like New York or Chicago. But many pre-war cities (Baltimore, Philly, etc.) are carried by their surrounding suburbs.
Some cities, typically pre-war ones, are an exception, like New York or Chicago. But many pre-war cities (Baltimore, Philly, etc.) are carried by their surrounding suburbs.
>Virginia did all the investment to attract tech companies to the area
Aren't these tech companies all there to do government services contracting? Seems more like DC is providing industry / jobs to Virginia
Aren't these tech companies all there to do government services contracting? Seems more like DC is providing industry / jobs to Virginia
No. And you can’t credit the federal government to DC, as the federal tax base and governance is almost wholly distinct from the municipal one. Say Rockwell builds an office in Reston because of good Virginia schools and the availability of Virginia Tech and UVA grads. Virginia builds the roads that get workers there, and the schools for the workers kids. If the office works on a federal contract, the Pentagon awards it (which is in Virginia) and the taxes that pay for it come from Michigan and California. DC doesn’t have any involvement, other than being the metaphysical locus of the federal government.
Silicon Valley was founded on defense contracts, so you are correct that the peninsula suburbs is not exist as ways to hoard wealth gained from a larger city. But Silicon Valley is very unique in that regard compared to the rest of the US.
Just like any business if you want a kid to get a good education, live in a school district that is growing.
Don't worry. I'm sure even the people hoarding wealth in affluent cities are still paying 40% of their income to fund rent seekers and their mandatory services.
They are parroting the Strongtown opinion pieces.
Shouldn't cities subsidize suburbs? I genuinely don't know the breakdown but when I was a kid and living in the suburbs I remember most of the adults around me commuting into the cities. I live in NY right now and rent prices are basically unlivable for most people so I find it hard to believe most workers don't commute in now as well. At that point subsidizing suburbs is basically required to support the workers who generate all the money for the city, it strikes me as symbiotic.
While there are many problems with public education in America my experience as a parent in a "good" school system suggest that more teachers should be pushed out of the profession than are likely to leave on their own.
This is a school system where every classroom has a $20k smart board ( at time ourchased) yet less than 1 in teachers seem to know how to use them.
At the same time we're constantly fed the low pay for teachers rhetoric as a prelude to increasing funding while both the median and mean incomes for teachers are well above the state averages.
I do know teachers I respect which go well above and beyond the minimum for thwir students. Sadly they're the exception rather than the rule.
This is a school system where every classroom has a $20k smart board ( at time ourchased) yet less than 1 in teachers seem to know how to use them.
At the same time we're constantly fed the low pay for teachers rhetoric as a prelude to increasing funding while both the median and mean incomes for teachers are well above the state averages.
I do know teachers I respect which go well above and beyond the minimum for thwir students. Sadly they're the exception rather than the rule.
Yes, just what every teacher needs, a wonky toy that kinda works but more likely will need an update or reboot when you actually want to use it.
Is there evidence these smart boards actually add anything to the classroom? How many resources need to get diverted to manage these things, provide training, etc.
Is there evidence these smart boards actually add anything to the classroom? How many resources need to get diverted to manage these things, provide training, etc.
Where do you think you're going to find replacement teachers?
At any point in your life, did you find yourself thinking "I should be a teacher?" and then not dismiss that thought based on pay?
Have you considered that the "smart board" or whatever might simply have been a very poor classroom investment?
At any point in your life, did you find yourself thinking "I should be a teacher?" and then not dismiss that thought based on pay?
Have you considered that the "smart board" or whatever might simply have been a very poor classroom investment?
Schools cannot solve society's issues. This is hardly a new thing. Eventually people will learn this. The teachers certainly are, hence the quitting mentioned in the article.
> gun violence
> COVID-19
> masking policy debates
> political battles over what teachers can or can't discuss or teach in the classroom
Parents blame teachers, admin blame teachers, what a shock some teachers are quitting
> gun violence
> COVID-19
> masking policy debates
> political battles over what teachers can or can't discuss or teach in the classroom
Parents blame teachers, admin blame teachers, what a shock some teachers are quitting
Clarify what you mean.
Education is the single best tool humans have invented for progressing knowledge and solving social issues.
But the current education systems in the US are pretty bad though, from what I've read.
Education is the single best tool humans have invented for progressing knowledge and solving social issues.
But the current education systems in the US are pretty bad though, from what I've read.
Some parents: don't trust teachers to educate their kids with verifiably accurate history and science because it might make them feel guilty or conflict with their religious beliefs
Same parents: trust those same teachers implicitly with firearms to protect their kids from shooters wielding the AR-15s that they refuse to restrict or ban.
We have teachers who are under assault from forces beyond their control from parents, from politicians, and from nuts with military weaponry while their wages have largely remained stagnant and outstripped by the cost of living. Meanwhile, we live in an administrative fantasy land where somehow schools need a dozen assistant principals and superintendents who literally could not find a job outside of academia are pulling in $300K+ even from poor districts.
They'd get far more traction, at least about school security, if they banded together and told parents that their kids are getting thrown into hallways the second they hear an active shooter is on campus. We can have ten dozen shootings and nothing will change, but have one where it's the kids that are the human shields and people will suddenly find that spark of common sense that has long been abandoned.
Same parents: trust those same teachers implicitly with firearms to protect their kids from shooters wielding the AR-15s that they refuse to restrict or ban.
We have teachers who are under assault from forces beyond their control from parents, from politicians, and from nuts with military weaponry while their wages have largely remained stagnant and outstripped by the cost of living. Meanwhile, we live in an administrative fantasy land where somehow schools need a dozen assistant principals and superintendents who literally could not find a job outside of academia are pulling in $300K+ even from poor districts.
They'd get far more traction, at least about school security, if they banded together and told parents that their kids are getting thrown into hallways the second they hear an active shooter is on campus. We can have ten dozen shootings and nothing will change, but have one where it's the kids that are the human shields and people will suddenly find that spark of common sense that has long been abandoned.
Not GP.
Teachers to get to face the real possibility of being shot. But they don’t get body armor like some other professions. In fact almost nothing gets done. Shootings go up. Odds go up. Teachers have to take it.
COVID-19 comes. States or administration close the schools. Kids disappear, but teachers are supposed to know why. Kids ignore lessons or disrupt things and learning suffers, teachers get yelled at. They were never trained for this but do their best and get yelled at. Kids should be in school! Teachers fault. Kids should be at home, it’s too dangerous! Yell at the teacher.
Masks are required. They shouldn’t be. They’re dangerous. They’re annoying. They’re ineffective. They’re Democrat theater. Kids won’t follow policy. Yell at the teachers. Masks are no longer required. This is dangerous. Billy could die. Yell at the teacher. Should have closed the school again. Yell at the teacher.
I’ve seen some of my local school board meetings in the last two years. It’s a disaster of screaming at the poor representatives. Then some of those people ran and got seats and now things are even more contentious. And that was just over masking/closing. Haven’t even started on what to teach/how.
People yell at the board. People yell at the admins. EVERYONE yells at the teachers. There’s more of them and they’re easier to get ahold of. You know who they are. They’re (nominally) in charge of your kids class. So just like fast-food workers or customer support people everyone takes things out on them.
There are tons of other problems that have existed since before the pandemic that still exist. There are other pandemic related problems GP didn’t mention.
If there are any teachers left in two years it will be a miracle.
Teachers to get to face the real possibility of being shot. But they don’t get body armor like some other professions. In fact almost nothing gets done. Shootings go up. Odds go up. Teachers have to take it.
COVID-19 comes. States or administration close the schools. Kids disappear, but teachers are supposed to know why. Kids ignore lessons or disrupt things and learning suffers, teachers get yelled at. They were never trained for this but do their best and get yelled at. Kids should be in school! Teachers fault. Kids should be at home, it’s too dangerous! Yell at the teacher.
Masks are required. They shouldn’t be. They’re dangerous. They’re annoying. They’re ineffective. They’re Democrat theater. Kids won’t follow policy. Yell at the teachers. Masks are no longer required. This is dangerous. Billy could die. Yell at the teacher. Should have closed the school again. Yell at the teacher.
I’ve seen some of my local school board meetings in the last two years. It’s a disaster of screaming at the poor representatives. Then some of those people ran and got seats and now things are even more contentious. And that was just over masking/closing. Haven’t even started on what to teach/how.
People yell at the board. People yell at the admins. EVERYONE yells at the teachers. There’s more of them and they’re easier to get ahold of. You know who they are. They’re (nominally) in charge of your kids class. So just like fast-food workers or customer support people everyone takes things out on them.
There are tons of other problems that have existed since before the pandemic that still exist. There are other pandemic related problems GP didn’t mention.
If there are any teachers left in two years it will be a miracle.
School is not education.
[deleted]
But it is supposed to be a tool for facilitating edication...
You also missed the part of the cycle that blames parents. The bureaucratic nature of modern school, lack of proper incentives or completion are the fertilizers of mediocrity.
You also missed the part of the cycle that blames parents. The bureaucratic nature of modern school, lack of proper incentives or completion are the fertilizers of mediocrity.
I didn’t - the point is that schools are tasked with solving societal problems. Teachers aren’t qualified and are blamed and so they’re leaving. The end
What else is school?
I think parents are unaware of how little autonomy public school teachers have over what takes place in their classroom.
I have several friends and family members who work in education. They've fielded their share of complaints over the years. And when it comes to what's covered in the classrooms the kinds of angry complaints they field are almost always over stuff mandated by either the administration or a state-level standard. And when they (very politely) inform parents that they're required by law to learn about <some thing> you'd think the parents would be like "Oh my god that's terrible! I'm going to write my state rep right away!" NOPE - they just double down and seem to think its within the teacher's purview to eschew state requirements.
And the kind of stuff that parents find objectionable isn't even the stuff you're thinking - like maybe evolution, slavery, civil rights etc. Nope. One parent was upset her daughter had to learn that the US civil war was extremely bloody and demanded to know why this sort of "macabre information" was part of the unit as dwelling on such things does not prepare kids for college.
I have several friends and family members who work in education. They've fielded their share of complaints over the years. And when it comes to what's covered in the classrooms the kinds of angry complaints they field are almost always over stuff mandated by either the administration or a state-level standard. And when they (very politely) inform parents that they're required by law to learn about <some thing> you'd think the parents would be like "Oh my god that's terrible! I'm going to write my state rep right away!" NOPE - they just double down and seem to think its within the teacher's purview to eschew state requirements.
And the kind of stuff that parents find objectionable isn't even the stuff you're thinking - like maybe evolution, slavery, civil rights etc. Nope. One parent was upset her daughter had to learn that the US civil war was extremely bloody and demanded to know why this sort of "macabre information" was part of the unit as dwelling on such things does not prepare kids for college.
There is a cohort of parents that is involved (edit: in a healthy way) in their child’s education. There is another cohort that is looking for a babysitter. A bifurcation in path’s for these cohorts is about to occur.
For the former, parents of means will elect for private school. Parents of lesser means will either stretch for private school, or homeschool.
For the latter, I am at a loss of what will happen. Perhaps a lost generation.
For the former, parents of means will elect for private school. Parents of lesser means will either stretch for private school, or homeschool.
For the latter, I am at a loss of what will happen. Perhaps a lost generation.
The "Looking for a babysitter" parents aren't that bad assuming their kids are well behaved and make decent grades.
It's actually mixture of helicopter parents who are EXTREMELY invested in their kids education and troubled kids whose parents treat school like a daycare/repair shop for their kids that are the problem. A pox on both their houses etc etc
It's actually mixture of helicopter parents who are EXTREMELY invested in their kids education and troubled kids whose parents treat school like a daycare/repair shop for their kids that are the problem. A pox on both their houses etc etc
> helicopter parents who are EXTREMELY invested in their kids education
These folks confuse me, e.g. if they are that particular/knowledgeable/opinionated/demanding - then they should homeschool or tutor their kid themselves. Especially if we're talking public schools, they aren't paying some top dollar private school where they can demand some tuned experience for their child.
These folks confuse me, e.g. if they are that particular/knowledgeable/opinionated/demanding - then they should homeschool or tutor their kid themselves. Especially if we're talking public schools, they aren't paying some top dollar private school where they can demand some tuned experience for their child.
Ah, there's a logical explanation for this!
Home schooling is off the table for a lot of these parents as they're most likely both working professionals with demanding jobs OR they recognize they're not going to do a good job educating their kids past a certain level.
Private school might be off the table because the local public schools might have a better reputation than any nearby private. Why pay more to get less?
Home schooling is off the table for a lot of these parents as they're most likely both working professionals with demanding jobs OR they recognize they're not going to do a good job educating their kids past a certain level.
Private school might be off the table because the local public schools might have a better reputation than any nearby private. Why pay more to get less?
> they recognize they're not going to do a good job educating their kids past a certain level.
These are the people that have me shaking my head when they then are so opinionated about the curricula though.
These are the people that have me shaking my head when they then are so opinionated about the curricula though.
Sometimes you just get outliers. For example, there were some methods taught to my kids in elementary school as part of an emerging common core math curriculum that I disagreed with quite a bit.
I didn't take it to the school though because they were stuck in the middle of a state mandate and pissed off parents. I just helped my kids differentiate some of the more fundamental methods from helps/shortcuts (like sections on estimation).
I didn't take it to the school though because they were stuck in the middle of a state mandate and pissed off parents. I just helped my kids differentiate some of the more fundamental methods from helps/shortcuts (like sections on estimation).
That's what hurts. The worst tyrants (classically) believe they are doing the right thing. For who(m)? That's another question.
Good call out, I have edited my comment accordingly.
I'm guessing there would be family situations where having a babysitter who is trained as a teacher beats home life.
PG tweeted data/commentary about childcare recently and there was a bit saying that for some brackets of society, dedicated care at home was most effective. But for some brackets, the children were better off in group childcare.
PG tweeted data/commentary about childcare recently and there was a bit saying that for some brackets of society, dedicated care at home was most effective. But for some brackets, the children were better off in group childcare.
I read an article recently about Australian teachers who were quitting or thinking about it. None mentioned the pay, though I think it could be improved in places. Almost all however mentioned that lack of autonomy. They had more and more responsibilities, more pressure from parents, but less allowance for how they taught.
IMO, we should be grouping tasks by those which require a trained teacher and those which can be done by a trainee or some sort of clerk. There are surely tasks like preparing curriculum for remote learning, or marking (my mum was a teacher and as a teenager, I used to mark work for her), etc that could be done by an assistant split across multiple classes or a trainee. Or could be done remotely even. Spread the workload and ensure that the key interface between teacher and students gets the teacher's full time and attention.
IMO, we should be grouping tasks by those which require a trained teacher and those which can be done by a trainee or some sort of clerk. There are surely tasks like preparing curriculum for remote learning, or marking (my mum was a teacher and as a teenager, I used to mark work for her), etc that could be done by an assistant split across multiple classes or a trainee. Or could be done remotely even. Spread the workload and ensure that the key interface between teacher and students gets the teacher's full time and attention.
Un-paywalled: https://archive.ph/yA5Rr
Busy work, waking up early, memorizing history dates, homework, its all very barbaric. The whole thing was built for a time when parents went off to work in a factory. School as we know it is primitive and helps no one. It hurts those that have difficult upbringings, as they are locked out of top educational opportunities, which may gate them for life. Do away with the whole thing, teach reading and math slowly. With the classics
Okay so you like Bill Gates can design the right curriculum over teachers who have trained and worked in their field for years. Lets hear a breakdown of how you will implement the modern education curriculum and structure. Then I will bring a 25 year old Harvard MBA to explain how your tech job can be completely updated for the modern world.
Even if you have a 100% sound and demonstrably better idea that fixes all current issues I dare you to explain how you’d get anyone to accept and agree to implement it.
Exactly you cannot. And people outside corporate like plumbers, carpenters, retail workers get up early in the morning and go to work everyday. Will their kids stay home and learn? We had kids learning over Zoom the last couple of years. How was their mental and physical health not being able to socialize. Especially the ones not living in a wealthy suburb. The commenter with the 'barbaric, medieval practices' is so out of touch but they are exactly the ones selling us the 'new education model'. For who ? Themselves and other wealthy folks?
Lots of idea work very well in a vacuum.
Come to Australia.. we need more teachers
We have a lot of teachers looking to move out of the profession too. Here's one indicative comment from a recent article:
"I am an early childhood teacher of 20+ years and I have recently cut back to 2 days a week. I do another "normal" job on the other days now. The BS that goes along with the job now is ridiculous and getting worse all the time. It takes away from actually teaching kids and doing the job I used love. At the same time the pressure to "bump up" the grades is ever growing. I will never go back to full-time teaching again and hope to quit altogether..."
"I am an early childhood teacher of 20+ years and I have recently cut back to 2 days a week. I do another "normal" job on the other days now. The BS that goes along with the job now is ridiculous and getting worse all the time. It takes away from actually teaching kids and doing the job I used love. At the same time the pressure to "bump up" the grades is ever growing. I will never go back to full-time teaching again and hope to quit altogether..."
When covid hit the Principal at my kids school quit. No love lost, he wasn't very popular. He makes soap in his garage now and sells it in a little boutique shop. I suspect he isn't the only one finding something outside of education.
Kids are brats, parents are insufferable. low pay, having to deal with administration and bureaucracy. no surprise.
> low pay
and probably the best benefits package anywhere.
and probably the best benefits package anywhere.
> and probably the best benefits package anywhere
That would be public safety, not public education, usually. By a fairly enormous margin. Teachers probably have better benefits than the average private sector worker, but not outstanding among either public sector workers generally or knowledge workers generally (though, relative to salary, probably outstanding for the latter category.)
That would be public safety, not public education, usually. By a fairly enormous margin. Teachers probably have better benefits than the average private sector worker, but not outstanding among either public sector workers generally or knowledge workers generally (though, relative to salary, probably outstanding for the latter category.)
Spending 25 to 30 years living just above the poverty line in many states, taking abuse from admin, parents and students, all so you can continue to get that same pay for life after you retire. Not really great benefits.
It's more than a lifetime pension. The health care package is gold plated.
Talking about low pay without consideration of the considerable value of the benefits package is seriously misleading.
Talking about low pay without consideration of the considerable value of the benefits package is seriously misleading.
> The health care package is gold plated.
Health care is gold for "health care providers", NOT the person receiving the services. I've a submission about how health insurance pays for the most expensive medical interventions possible, but not for things people actually need: meals, transportation, etc.
Which Interventions Can Be Paid For: The Explanatory Power of “Prasad’s Law” (hcrenewal.blogspot.com) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21728864
Health care is gold for "health care providers", NOT the person receiving the services. I've a submission about how health insurance pays for the most expensive medical interventions possible, but not for things people actually need: meals, transportation, etc.
Which Interventions Can Be Paid For: The Explanatory Power of “Prasad’s Law” (hcrenewal.blogspot.com) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21728864
> The health care package is gold plated.
1000% not true in every state or district. Not even close.
1000% not true in every state or district. Not even close.
[deleted]
Moat of this "living below the poverty line" rhetoric has been debunked. In most states it's only achievable when combining the starting wages for inexperienced teachers and combining them with extra hours and personally purchased classroom supplies few teachers actually partake in. They also prefer to take the wages of teachers who choose to be paid an annual rate rather than for the months they actually work and present that as some sort of injustice.
Which is why I said, "just above the poverty line."
I’m not in a high cost of living area at all.
The teachers I know barely make enough to live alone even after years and having multiple degrees. If they do they have to be thrifty about it.
God forbid they have an unexpected big expense.
I’ve seen the raise schedule. It’s basically peanuts for a very long time. Pay might be ok after 15 years, but that’s a lot of sacrifice. And assumes low inflation/no new contract ruining things.
Everything about the job seems to suck. But 80% of it seems like the parents. Between those they treat the teachers and how many don’t control/discipline their kids making the teachers life miserable… this isn’t going away.
The teachers I know barely make enough to live alone even after years and having multiple degrees. If they do they have to be thrifty about it.
God forbid they have an unexpected big expense.
I’ve seen the raise schedule. It’s basically peanuts for a very long time. Pay might be ok after 15 years, but that’s a lot of sacrifice. And assumes low inflation/no new contract ruining things.
Everything about the job seems to suck. But 80% of it seems like the parents. Between those they treat the teachers and how many don’t control/discipline their kids making the teachers life miserable… this isn’t going away.
Don't forget the pension for life and the free health care.
Walter, do you realize how absurd this sentence looks like from the point of view of people that don't live in the US? Those two things should be the norm, and presenting them as the prize to win after suffering for decades from poor pay, entitled parents and lack of autonomy comes as very tone deaf in my opinion.
I'm aware of the entitlements Europeans have and that they view the US as uncivilized :-)
I'm also aware that Europe allows the US to spend a lot of money for the defense of Europe and much of the world.
I did neglect to mention that the pension for life for WA teachers starts at 20 years of service. Isn't a working life 20 to 65? How sustainable can an economy be if a career is 20 years, while society supports you for the other 65 years?
I'm also aware that Europe allows the US to spend a lot of money for the defense of Europe and much of the world.
I did neglect to mention that the pension for life for WA teachers starts at 20 years of service. Isn't a working life 20 to 65? How sustainable can an economy be if a career is 20 years, while society supports you for the other 65 years?
Apologies, I didn't realize my own tone deafness despite your slightly uncharitable interpretation of what I wrote.
That depends on the state. I knew teachers in new york state and they made very good money with glorious retirement benefits and tons of vacation. Seems teacher pay is similar to police pay. In some states it’s really low but in others it’s fantastic. See salaries of cops jn CA for example.
Well police can easily earn by doing corruption. Teacher not so much.
(At least in the country I live)
(At least in the country I live)
Teachers are considered second in terms of contributing most to society but teacher pay is near the bottom.
Anecdotally I am seeing people quit the profession first-hand. It is real and the teacher shortage next year will be too. It will be interesting to see how school districts respond.
In my local district they didn’t have enough bus drivers this years and they had to double the pay to keep the ones they had.
In my local district they didn’t have enough bus drivers this years and they had to double the pay to keep the ones they had.
> Some 300,000 public-school teachers and other staff left the field between February 2020 and May 2022, a nearly 3% drop in that workforce, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data.
Is that a net loss or in individuals? You'd expect more than 1.5% to leave in a given year just from retirement.
Is that a net loss or in individuals? You'd expect more than 1.5% to leave in a given year just from retirement.
From a very narrow point of view of economics (thus not trying to make any statement or provoke any flame of what is better as it isn't what economics about) the teachers - large unionized workforce in the style of yesterday and working at small scale and producing small batches of "product" - reminds me of the sharecroppers who were displaced by large industrial agriculture due to the technology development - large tractors - with the displacement triggered by the stress of the Dust Bowl. For teachers i see the same situation - technology development and the stress caused by the society having changed a lot economically/politically/socially since the times when a small town had its teacher. The importance and the task of personal development of your pupils is pretty much gone, and the teachers today are limited to the instruction only - that narrow task can and will more and more be made much better and efficiently using technology at industrial scale.
This comment is completely detached from reality. Our education system is broken and archaic but not for the reasons provided. It's an idealized view of reality and history not indicative of what's actually happening.
For one this isn't a matter of scale, most school systems are enormous and structured like most large bureaucracies. Which is the root of the problem.
For one this isn't a matter of scale, most school systems are enormous and structured like most large bureaucracies. Which is the root of the problem.
Exactly, gigantic workshop of manual craftsmen (or a huge bureaucratic coop of sharecroppers) instead of an industrial factory.
And related classic to enjoy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axWVMr-RpMM :)
And related classic to enjoy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axWVMr-RpMM :)
How do you imagine that to happen? I could see more self-guided and technology-driven learning work well for older kids, but not for even young teenagers. The kids at that age lack discipline and a lot of subjects start it quite boring (basic reading and spelling, math doesn't get fun to several years in, rode memorization in there beginning for foreign language studies etc). Many kids will find ways to distract themselves from that without supervision. We've seen that parents providing that supervision for remote studies doesn't work in many cases
i don't know in details for everything, yet just for example
>rode memorization in there beginning for foreign language studies
that is how i was taught English, and that loses orders of magnitude on all metrics to how for example Russian immigrant children of my friends naturally picked the language upon coming here. Technology provides a lot in the direction of such an opportunity without actually needing to physically visit the foreign country.
>The kids at that age lack discipline and a lot of subjects start it quite boring (basic reading and spelling, math doesn't get fun to several years in ...) ... Many kids will find ways to distract themselves from that without supervision.
Couple things come to mind:
- one can imagine something like competitively organized quests in Minecraft built around knowledge to learn
- FB spent enormous resources of how to turn people into dopamine monkey. May be some of that or similar research can be utilized here to provide for children focus on the learning. Status update broadcasted across the class "Alice just learned a new formula worth 5 shiny stars".
>rode memorization in there beginning for foreign language studies
that is how i was taught English, and that loses orders of magnitude on all metrics to how for example Russian immigrant children of my friends naturally picked the language upon coming here. Technology provides a lot in the direction of such an opportunity without actually needing to physically visit the foreign country.
>The kids at that age lack discipline and a lot of subjects start it quite boring (basic reading and spelling, math doesn't get fun to several years in ...) ... Many kids will find ways to distract themselves from that without supervision.
Couple things come to mind:
- one can imagine something like competitively organized quests in Minecraft built around knowledge to learn
- FB spent enormous resources of how to turn people into dopamine monkey. May be some of that or similar research can be utilized here to provide for children focus on the learning. Status update broadcasted across the class "Alice just learned a new formula worth 5 shiny stars".
Here in SoCal, we are dealing with declining enrollment. Since many schools here are funded on the amount of students they service, we may soon need less teachers.
Americans have stopped trusting each other. People don’t trust police. They don’t trust teachers. Two jobs that were the most respected and bedrocks of communities. These jobs traded low pay for community respect.
Americans have to stop seeing differences and fighting petty political fights and pointing fingers.
Americans have to stop seeing differences and fighting petty political fights and pointing fingers.
You do the realize that the tech industry (us) and the financial services industry are largely responsible for gutting of this. Disrupt became the buzzword for the last few years. Everyone should code, laptops in the classroom, defund the police and all of that is largely responsible for all this. But we are never to blame because the tech industry are like Swiss bankers. We are just the means.
Could you elaborate on the connection? I don't see how "everyone should code" leads to societal distrust. I do see how "defund the police" does, but I don't see how tech or finance was really responsible that movement.
Wasn't "defund the police" a reaction to the existing division between the police force and large parts of the population?
It is a hell of a statement to think that the police lost the trust of the public unfairly. The police lost the trust of the public exactly by their own actions.
I do not think the lack of trust in police is unfair. Police brutality is an issue in the US that disproportionately impacts minorities. However, I also do not think the response to police brutality has been at all constructive. What have we achieved in terms of lasting police reform?
My point is simply that police has been a respected pillar of society. Police falling out of favor has very real consequences. When people do not trust police they turn to others for protection and justice.
My point is simply that police has been a respected pillar of society. Police falling out of favor has very real consequences. When people do not trust police they turn to others for protection and justice.
And sticking up for "the bad apples" seems still prioritized over doing the right thing and gaining the trust back
Trying to both sides conspiracy theories about teachers?
Is this a shock?
- Low pay. For STEM fields, you can easily make far more in industry.
- Decreasing resources and investment from the community.
- Decreasing freedom in what you teach and how you choose to teach it.
- Half of parents see you as a babysitter, and the other half sees you as the only obstacle between their child and Harvard.
- High scrutiny of your actions. What you do outside of working hours can affect your job (e.g. having a drink at a bar or posting on Facebook). In our polarized society, anything that's slightly political could cost you your career.
- If you're male, expect heavier scrutiny. People will always suspect that you could be a child predator.
- Fear of school shootings.
EDIT:
And I almost forgot:
- A society where somewhere between 20-50% of people are skeptical of your value and unhappy with your profession today.
- Low pay. For STEM fields, you can easily make far more in industry.
- Decreasing resources and investment from the community.
- Decreasing freedom in what you teach and how you choose to teach it.
- Half of parents see you as a babysitter, and the other half sees you as the only obstacle between their child and Harvard.
- High scrutiny of your actions. What you do outside of working hours can affect your job (e.g. having a drink at a bar or posting on Facebook). In our polarized society, anything that's slightly political could cost you your career.
- If you're male, expect heavier scrutiny. People will always suspect that you could be a child predator.
- Fear of school shootings.
EDIT:
And I almost forgot:
- A society where somewhere between 20-50% of people are skeptical of your value and unhappy with your profession today.