What I don’t like about working at a remote job(priconceptions.com)
priconceptions.com
What I don’t like about working at a remote job
https://www.priconceptions.com/notebook/remote-jobs-bad
227 comments
>There is also a somewhat of divide between introverts and extroverts between which they prefer, but of course - there are many in either camp leaning the other way too.
Yeah, as an introvert, seeing the constant assertion that only extroverts want to work from the office is very frustrating. It is because I am an introvert that I want to work from the office. Sure, I struggle with interacting with people in general already. But I will have that trouble whether I'm at home or in the office. But here's just a small list of the additional troubles that pile on WFH:
Having to speak out on a public chat channel, where everything I say will be recored for a legally mandated long time, seen by who knows and potentially misinterpreted because of a lack of tone (slack).
Having to interrupt someone without being able to see if they're busy (IMs).
Being self conscious of the existence of a camera and not knowing if people are or aren't looking at me (web conferences)
Not being able to get tone and body language feedback from the people I'm talking to (any text based medium)
Accidentally speaking over or interrupting someone because of latency (web and audio conferences)
Having to specifically put effort into promoting myself and my work because it's less visible now
Not having the chance side conversations with my mangers, skip managers and directors. I know a lot of people doubt these happen, but I've had enough of them, and am convinced one or two major changes in my career have been in part because of those conversations that I would not have otherwise had. This goes hand in hand with the item above.
I am 100% behind having more choice and more flexibility, but I really wish people would stop pretending that the divide on this is extrovert/introvert. I'm far enough along in my career to understand the importance of speaking up and being seen and therefore to put the effort into doing it, but make no mistake, 100% remote requires me to put more more effort into it and for my personal form of introversion, it makes things much much harder on me.
Yeah, as an introvert, seeing the constant assertion that only extroverts want to work from the office is very frustrating. It is because I am an introvert that I want to work from the office. Sure, I struggle with interacting with people in general already. But I will have that trouble whether I'm at home or in the office. But here's just a small list of the additional troubles that pile on WFH:
Having to speak out on a public chat channel, where everything I say will be recored for a legally mandated long time, seen by who knows and potentially misinterpreted because of a lack of tone (slack).
Having to interrupt someone without being able to see if they're busy (IMs).
Being self conscious of the existence of a camera and not knowing if people are or aren't looking at me (web conferences)
Not being able to get tone and body language feedback from the people I'm talking to (any text based medium)
Accidentally speaking over or interrupting someone because of latency (web and audio conferences)
Having to specifically put effort into promoting myself and my work because it's less visible now
Not having the chance side conversations with my mangers, skip managers and directors. I know a lot of people doubt these happen, but I've had enough of them, and am convinced one or two major changes in my career have been in part because of those conversations that I would not have otherwise had. This goes hand in hand with the item above.
I am 100% behind having more choice and more flexibility, but I really wish people would stop pretending that the divide on this is extrovert/introvert. I'm far enough along in my career to understand the importance of speaking up and being seen and therefore to put the effort into doing it, but make no mistake, 100% remote requires me to put more more effort into it and for my personal form of introversion, it makes things much much harder on me.
On the flip side, I'm an extravert, but I have stopped considering anything but 100% remote work. I get my energy from others, but that doesn't mean we have to share the same physical space. I used to spend 2 hours a day in a crappy commute, and for an extravert, that sucks. Now I get to spend that time around people I enjoy.
I know extroverts who love their commute. They call colleagues and get stuff done while traveling. Its working, IMO.
I doubt that this is an extravert/ intravert divide and am pretty sure it has more to do with the current life situation.
Young, single and living nearby by yourself or in a shared flat without a dedicated room to work in? Not too sure about what to do with free time? Going to the office for socializing and structure is great.
Married, with kids and living in a house on the countryside? Strong social ties and no need to get to know your colleagues? Or traveling around/ having an otherwise fulfilling life outside work? Then, remote is awesome.
I'm rather introverted myself and very happy with hybrid. Meeting colleagues when I feel like socializing and in need of some routine, working remotely when I have other things to do and want the flexibility.
Young, single and living nearby by yourself or in a shared flat without a dedicated room to work in? Not too sure about what to do with free time? Going to the office for socializing and structure is great.
Married, with kids and living in a house on the countryside? Strong social ties and no need to get to know your colleagues? Or traveling around/ having an otherwise fulfilling life outside work? Then, remote is awesome.
I'm rather introverted myself and very happy with hybrid. Meeting colleagues when I feel like socializing and in need of some routine, working remotely when I have other things to do and want the flexibility.
Absolutely, 100% this. Also, I really appreciate how candid the author of the article is. Why is it so hard to admit our human foibles?
I'm not sure if there's any study to back this up but aren't introverts generally more sensitive to social cues? As an introvert myself, we have similar frustrations. In-person communication is just more effective in some cases.
Afaik no. Introverts can be both very good at social cues and bad at them. Same goes for extroverts. Introversion vs extrovertion is just one of huge amount of traits we have.
Also, it ia not like there would be two distinct species. It is scale and majority of the people are in the middle between extroversion and introversion. Just slightly biased toward one side.
Also, it ia not like there would be two distinct species. It is scale and majority of the people are in the middle between extroversion and introversion. Just slightly biased toward one side.
The distinction between "introvert" and "extrovert" is really about whether socializing is draining or recharging.
I'm extremely introverted and plenty "good at" (most forms of) socializing. It's also hard work for me. But it's hard work like going on a mountain hike is hard work: it's a fantastic experience (usually) and I am glad I do it, but I also simply can't do it 24/7/365.
I'm extremely introverted and plenty "good at" (most forms of) socializing. It's also hard work for me. But it's hard work like going on a mountain hike is hard work: it's a fantastic experience (usually) and I am glad I do it, but I also simply can't do it 24/7/365.
> aren't introverts generally more sensitive to social cues?
Maybe, if you don’t open a whole neurodivergent can of worms. (Speaking for myself, autistic and ADHD, I’m more sensitive to some social cues than others, and quite a lot less for other cues; my sensitivity to specific cues is often different if subtly from most of the neurodivergent people I know.)
Maybe, if you don’t open a whole neurodivergent can of worms. (Speaking for myself, autistic and ADHD, I’m more sensitive to some social cues than others, and quite a lot less for other cues; my sensitivity to specific cues is often different if subtly from most of the neurodivergent people I know.)
Is it wrong that I value both of those things?
I like going in once or twice a week, catching up with my team, writing stuff on a whiteboard, having in person 1:1s, attending an all hands in person, getting a free snack from the kitchen, having a beer after work at the pub.
I also like making my own breakfast, lunch and dinner, not spending over 50 quid travelling to the office, booking out an afternoon to write something, the ability to set my own schedule, having my own screen and desk, going for a quick walk in garden, and kissing my daughter goodnight.
I like going in once or twice a week, catching up with my team, writing stuff on a whiteboard, having in person 1:1s, attending an all hands in person, getting a free snack from the kitchen, having a beer after work at the pub.
I also like making my own breakfast, lunch and dinner, not spending over 50 quid travelling to the office, booking out an afternoon to write something, the ability to set my own schedule, having my own screen and desk, going for a quick walk in garden, and kissing my daughter goodnight.
The problem with an hybrid approach is that it forces you to live close to the office. If I were living in Hamburg and the company I want to work for is located in Munich and requires me to go 1 day/week to the office... Well that's a nogo to begin with.
So hybrid mode limits a lot your pool of potential employers.
So hybrid mode limits a lot your pool of potential employers.
Exactly - it varies person to person and company to company.
Personally I'm changing my lifestyle to have a small urban apartment in the city close to work, shops and services; and a house close to the beach around 1 hr by car / 1.5hrs by train away. I plan to move back and forth around once a week.
For me this ticks a lot of boxes and I'm happy to overcome the hassles involved. I can see it becoming a more popular lifestyle. I couldn't do the 'fully remote' move to a tiny town in the middle of nowhere.
Personally I'm changing my lifestyle to have a small urban apartment in the city close to work, shops and services; and a house close to the beach around 1 hr by car / 1.5hrs by train away. I plan to move back and forth around once a week.
For me this ticks a lot of boxes and I'm happy to overcome the hassles involved. I can see it becoming a more popular lifestyle. I couldn't do the 'fully remote' move to a tiny town in the middle of nowhere.
I just signed a lease on an apartment to do something very similar. House out in the country, apartment in a very walkable town just outside a major metro area. The motivation was to help a family member in that town but I’m stoked at the prospect of having both.
It’s definitely a bit of an indulgence but i could downsize both once my youngest is on her own.
It’s definitely a bit of an indulgence but i could downsize both once my youngest is on her own.
If you care to use an established term for it, there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pied-%C3%A0-terre
Oh nice!! Thank you!
Office work has obvious costs for the company (rent, etc), and obvious costs for the employee (commute, etc). All of these were known and agreed upon when the contract was signed.
What many proponents of remote work are arguing for is unilaterally changing the contract because it’s possible to also work from home. This line of argument typically highlights the obvious benefits for the employee (no commute, flexibility, etc.), but often ignores the less obvious cost of working from home, such as lower team/company social cohesion, poorer communication, significantly more difficult onboarding for new employees and quite likely reduced productivity and socialization. Additionally the employee can expect some increased costs (electricity, food) which my or may not be offset by reductions from dropping eating out and such.
While many software engineers accepted poor working conditions in exchange for money and opportunities, now they want to have their cake and eat it too - at the cost of new employees and their company. Maybe the latter is excusable depending on the company, but the former is not and needs to be discussed instead of being swept under the rug.
What many proponents of remote work are arguing for is unilaterally changing the contract because it’s possible to also work from home. This line of argument typically highlights the obvious benefits for the employee (no commute, flexibility, etc.), but often ignores the less obvious cost of working from home, such as lower team/company social cohesion, poorer communication, significantly more difficult onboarding for new employees and quite likely reduced productivity and socialization. Additionally the employee can expect some increased costs (electricity, food) which my or may not be offset by reductions from dropping eating out and such.
While many software engineers accepted poor working conditions in exchange for money and opportunities, now they want to have their cake and eat it too - at the cost of new employees and their company. Maybe the latter is excusable depending on the company, but the former is not and needs to be discussed instead of being swept under the rug.
I prefer to be remote. I find having my own space is less distracting but if I need to get up and walk away from my computer for a bit because I'm stuck - that also works better. I can be more flexible with my time if I have other things that I need to do during the day. Less thinking about lunch or drinks or such - I'm home, I have my kitchen.
At the same time - I also appreciate having an office that I can go to. Sometimes I just need a change of scenery, other times it's nice to just be around some other people. My team aren't local either, but there are a few folks I know in the local office on other teams - so it works out.
I very much agree that what's important is finding the right balance for yourself, and it certainly takes some experimentation.
At the same time - I also appreciate having an office that I can go to. Sometimes I just need a change of scenery, other times it's nice to just be around some other people. My team aren't local either, but there are a few folks I know in the local office on other teams - so it works out.
I very much agree that what's important is finding the right balance for yourself, and it certainly takes some experimentation.
I’ve found the best option to be a hybrid. 2 days remote, 3 in office.
Important to note again that this is the best option _for you_.
But only if everybody else is on the same schedule
Not necessarily. It's enough if you meet people from time to time.
Yes this requires everyone on the same schedule. If you can find a workplace like this, do not take it for granted. I’ve worked fully remote and fully office and it’s the hybrid (sync schedule) that is hands down the best (for me).
So long as the remote days a given person takes off stay the same I've found my team adjusted well any place it was necessary.
I’m in UTC-7 (currently) and I have a Monday meeting with someone in UTC+3. Neither of us expressed concern about that.
> Working from home, or remotely is not for everyone - neither is being in an office.
Upper management has always been wfo or wfh as it suits them.
The 2 groups (wfo and wfh) of mid-low tier "office workers" are far from equal in size.
The majority rather be remote. Most of the wfo people realize their limited value is less visible remotely, as is their opportunities for getting opportunistically involved in processes and projects. Professionally, this a compelling reason to claim wfo is for them as it's part of their act, which doubles the insult (inefficient+predatory people in an organization, waving the WFO banner).
Yes, I believe this wholeheartedly.
Upper management has always been wfo or wfh as it suits them.
The 2 groups (wfo and wfh) of mid-low tier "office workers" are far from equal in size.
The majority rather be remote. Most of the wfo people realize their limited value is less visible remotely, as is their opportunities for getting opportunistically involved in processes and projects. Professionally, this a compelling reason to claim wfo is for them as it's part of their act, which doubles the insult (inefficient+predatory people in an organization, waving the WFO banner).
Yes, I believe this wholeheartedly.
yes, much hard to justify their bullshit jobs remotely, they actually have to do some real work to try and posture.
we need a general clear out of middle managements, there are too many useless people in the workforce who only serve to demotivate the people who do the real work
we need a general clear out of middle managements, there are too many useless people in the workforce who only serve to demotivate the people who do the real work
I graduated in 2020 into what was supposed to be a “regular” in-person job, that was turned into a fully remote job due to Covid. I ended up hating it there, and since have found a new primarily-remote job that I love.
My life feels hopeless. I wake up, go to the gym, and then work from 9–8. I work so much because I have nothing better to do. Then I watch a movie or some garbage on YouTube and go to bed. I have no friends. On the weekends I try my hardest not to think about other people my age (24) going out and having fun. I haven’t had fun going out with friends since college in 2019. The only things keeping me going are the gym and my work.
The days where my two teammates and I coordinate going into the office together are a nice reminder of what having friends was like. Ultimately, I go home and I am alone.
My life feels hopeless. I wake up, go to the gym, and then work from 9–8. I work so much because I have nothing better to do. Then I watch a movie or some garbage on YouTube and go to bed. I have no friends. On the weekends I try my hardest not to think about other people my age (24) going out and having fun. I haven’t had fun going out with friends since college in 2019. The only things keeping me going are the gym and my work.
The days where my two teammates and I coordinate going into the office together are a nice reminder of what having friends was like. Ultimately, I go home and I am alone.
I think this is an epidemic right now frankly. A lot of people your age are struggling to find and maintain any kind of social connection and live a totally isolated life. It isn’t surprising, we aren’t used to having to go out of our way to find any social situation. It’s entirely possible to live without talking to anyone. Unfortunately for some reason it quickly becomes misanthropic too, especially if you have depression: you start to not want to be around people or not want to talk to people, you forget what they can offer you. I think there is absolutely a major widespread problem of growing social isolation right now
I am in Germany so even in the office people are cold. Native Germans (especially from the north) take months to years to warm up to you, so it takes a long time for them to warm up to you
I am in Germany so even in the office people are cold. Native Germans (especially from the north) take months to years to warm up to you, so it takes a long time for them to warm up to you
I agree about your assessments of north-Germans, but I haven't found south-Germans (or at least Austrians, which everyone tell me are ± the same as Bavarians) any better - in fact in my 8 years in Vienna I found the natives a lot less friendly/colder than in my now 9 years in Berlin.
Berlin isn't "north-German" culturally, it is a very distinct cultural sphere and probably good for making some friends.
Note that behind the aparent coldness of Germans lies a promise of eternal, deep friendship once you break through :-)
Note that behind the aparent coldness of Germans lies a promise of eternal, deep friendship once you break through :-)
Yeah I live in Hamburg and you basically have to stick with non Germans if you want to make friends in a reasonable timeframe. Many native Germans seem to guard friendship as an extremely precious thing that should only be given after much deliberation, while in a lot of other cultures it is given out relatively freely, after just one or two meetings even
> you start to not want to be around people or not want to talk to people, you forget what they can offer you.
The current political and cultural battles, in addition to a lingering #MeToo atmosphere, may also make this harder.
The current political and cultural battles, in addition to a lingering #MeToo atmosphere, may also make this harder.
To make new friends, you should try to find an activity you enjoy and a group you can join regularly (e.g. a meetup). If the activities are weekly, one could be enough. If monthly, pick up a couple of different ones. Over months you end up slowly building the relationships with others that you’ve missed. I had to do this after moving to a new country, it made a big difference in the end.
And it might be tough but if you find an online community (like a discord or a forum) you should definitely reach out to people you interact with enough. It’s possible to build friendships with people online, but it requires a bit more courage.
At the very least having more people to chat with can really change the texture of life
At the very least having more people to chat with can really change the texture of life
Good advice, but difficult in practice. Many activities stopped meeting in person during the pandemic and have barely started to resume them. And there are fewer than you would think.
Has anyone had success with this that they can share?
Has anyone had success with this that they can share?
Climbing - you already go to gym so are in above-average shape. Its a sport for 2 usually. In pre-covid (and pre-children) times I used to organize 1x per week a climbing session on our local meetup-like web. Usually 4-6 people showed up, often new ones.
Eventually you will meet interesting people. Even some girls who may have similar mindset to yours. I've met more (former) girlfriends through this than any other means, and eventually my wife.
I consider it the best sport out there due to mental aspect of it, especially on rock (and ski touring in winter). But if thats really not your cup of tea, look for other sports. Team ones, or some course where you end up with bunch of others. Just expose yourself to the crowds, even if its not that pleasant for ie introverts (like me).
Doing above, I've regularly ended up with more close people than I could possibly manage to keep friendship with. Also non-trivial number of ladies were keen to meet for other adventures like hiking, ski touring etc. Tons of people are wanting to do these sports, but they need some buddies.
Eventually you will meet interesting people. Even some girls who may have similar mindset to yours. I've met more (former) girlfriends through this than any other means, and eventually my wife.
I consider it the best sport out there due to mental aspect of it, especially on rock (and ski touring in winter). But if thats really not your cup of tea, look for other sports. Team ones, or some course where you end up with bunch of others. Just expose yourself to the crowds, even if its not that pleasant for ie introverts (like me).
Doing above, I've regularly ended up with more close people than I could possibly manage to keep friendship with. Also non-trivial number of ladies were keen to meet for other adventures like hiking, ski touring etc. Tons of people are wanting to do these sports, but they need some buddies.
I started playing tennis again, building on some basics I learned as a kid. Joined a local club, and was dumbfounded why no one was playing on beautiful weekend summer days. The sport has declined a little but still, where is eveyone?
Turns out all the action is at the organized league play with teams of 6, playing at home or travelling to nearby clubs. Through age groups and play modus anyone who can nominally complete a match skill-and fitness wise can join and contribute both to team success and social life surrounding the play. Through the shared activity you can connect, and meet for a match before joining people for non-tennis activities, before "making a friend as an adult".
So yes, the social structures are eroding rapidly and this will have major consequences for society, but there are still pockets left that you'll have to go out and find.
Turns out all the action is at the organized league play with teams of 6, playing at home or travelling to nearby clubs. Through age groups and play modus anyone who can nominally complete a match skill-and fitness wise can join and contribute both to team success and social life surrounding the play. Through the shared activity you can connect, and meet for a match before joining people for non-tennis activities, before "making a friend as an adult".
So yes, the social structures are eroding rapidly and this will have major consequences for society, but there are still pockets left that you'll have to go out and find.
my city has multiple recreational sport leagues that are active, and I spend a good chunk of time volunteering and have met some great people that way.
This happened to folks before WFH. Often you’d join a team that was full of people 40+ who had no interest or commonalities with someone in their early 20s (and no interest in bridging the gap). These things happen in office too.
It’s a common experience for young people today because our social fabric is weaker than it has been in the last 100 years. (Read some Robert Putnam to understand)
I’d suggest getting some social hobbies like ultimate, dancing, running groups, board games, etc. A lot of these groups/hobbies exist because there’s a ton of people like you who are feeling socially isolated and want to make friends.
It’s a common experience for young people today because our social fabric is weaker than it has been in the last 100 years. (Read some Robert Putnam to understand)
I’d suggest getting some social hobbies like ultimate, dancing, running groups, board games, etc. A lot of these groups/hobbies exist because there’s a ton of people like you who are feeling socially isolated and want to make friends.
Find hobbies / meetup groups. If you want to improve your situation you need to actively work on it. It doesn't magically fall into your lap.
Also, stop working 9-8. Obviously it's more difficult to find the energy to do things when you're tired from working 11 hours per day.
Also, stop working 9-8. Obviously it's more difficult to find the energy to do things when you're tired from working 11 hours per day.
Sorry you feel like this, isolation can feel terrible. I went through a similar thing when I first moved to a remote job. I made friends with people of similar interests. Can you move to a job where you can be in an office with other people? Not sure where you're based but it might be an idea to take a look around.
Hey, I graduated in 2021 and work a fully remote job. Seems like we might have similar interests or are at least at a similar place in life. Shoot me an email if interested: [email protected]
I’m around your age, similar interests (software and exercise), my job’s fully remote and I like going places and meeting new people. Feel free to hit me up [email protected]
I'm sorry you feel this way, but maybe my experience can give you hope.
I moved countries in 2013, and barely had 1 friend after I moved. I had a few office colleagues I was friends with, but very rarely met with them outside of the office.
My days were similar to what you describe. Working long hours and then sitting at home with Netflix or Youtube. COVID has made it worst in your case unfortunately.
Here's what I learned which might help you: - Watching movies or Youtube isn't necessarily a "waste" of time. It's just a way to spend time. You don't need to spend your time being productive or social. If the movies or videos let you pass the time in peace, enjoy that. I also enjoyed reading books back when I was living by myself, but the majority of my time was spent in "wasteful" activities like social media and movies. As long as it's a conscious decision to spend your time this way, I would suggest to not call it "wasted" time. You're spending time doing things that help you relax and unwind. It's not wasted. - It took me a long time (> 2 years) to find a group of friends that I was happy being around. College is really the last time in my life when I made friends quickly. I think it's purely because being together for hours everyday over the course of years naturally builds friendships. Making friends after college takes time. As someone who is introverted, it took me even longer. - The time I had to spend by myself was difficult at times, but that was just because of the way I had framed it then. Like you said, there's an expectation of how people your age have to act; go out and have fun. Ultimately it is someone else's expectations that you are enforcing on yourself. Find things that bring you some version of joy. Don't worry about what others expect you to do. - Find hobbies. If you have a well paying job and low expenses, you should try your hand at different things. I've tried and given up on so many things over the years. A few; like 3D printing and FPV drone flying have stuck around. Again, I used to think that I was failing because I didn't stick with hobbies for a long time. I now realize that it would have been worse trying to force myself to spend my free time on things I didn't enjoy. - Following up on the hobbies thing - find communities around your hobbies that you enjoy. It's a great way to make friends. Communities don't need to be in-person either. There are so many amazing people you can make friends with online through your interests.
Finally, working in-person with others in the office is a great way of accelerating friendships. Many in my current friends circle are people I met in the office, or people I met through my colleagues.
The last thing I'll end with is to not worry too much and give it time. That's essentially what helped me; giving it time.
Hope that helps.
I moved countries in 2013, and barely had 1 friend after I moved. I had a few office colleagues I was friends with, but very rarely met with them outside of the office.
My days were similar to what you describe. Working long hours and then sitting at home with Netflix or Youtube. COVID has made it worst in your case unfortunately.
Here's what I learned which might help you: - Watching movies or Youtube isn't necessarily a "waste" of time. It's just a way to spend time. You don't need to spend your time being productive or social. If the movies or videos let you pass the time in peace, enjoy that. I also enjoyed reading books back when I was living by myself, but the majority of my time was spent in "wasteful" activities like social media and movies. As long as it's a conscious decision to spend your time this way, I would suggest to not call it "wasted" time. You're spending time doing things that help you relax and unwind. It's not wasted. - It took me a long time (> 2 years) to find a group of friends that I was happy being around. College is really the last time in my life when I made friends quickly. I think it's purely because being together for hours everyday over the course of years naturally builds friendships. Making friends after college takes time. As someone who is introverted, it took me even longer. - The time I had to spend by myself was difficult at times, but that was just because of the way I had framed it then. Like you said, there's an expectation of how people your age have to act; go out and have fun. Ultimately it is someone else's expectations that you are enforcing on yourself. Find things that bring you some version of joy. Don't worry about what others expect you to do. - Find hobbies. If you have a well paying job and low expenses, you should try your hand at different things. I've tried and given up on so many things over the years. A few; like 3D printing and FPV drone flying have stuck around. Again, I used to think that I was failing because I didn't stick with hobbies for a long time. I now realize that it would have been worse trying to force myself to spend my free time on things I didn't enjoy. - Following up on the hobbies thing - find communities around your hobbies that you enjoy. It's a great way to make friends. Communities don't need to be in-person either. There are so many amazing people you can make friends with online through your interests.
Finally, working in-person with others in the office is a great way of accelerating friendships. Many in my current friends circle are people I met in the office, or people I met through my colleagues.
The last thing I'll end with is to not worry too much and give it time. That's essentially what helped me; giving it time.
Hope that helps.
It’s not an unfair set of points and this one rings true harder than most:
> It’s extremely hard to be friends with your co-workers. You have to go out of your way to reach out and be available. Friendships don’t happen “organically” like they do in the office
…because, most people seem to think they can just on their asses all day, don’t post on slack, don’t talk to anyone other than on standup and just get work done.
So many tickets done.
So totally miserable.
I’ve seen first hand so many times the last couple of years. There’s only so much you can do to reach out to people and give them the opportunity to engage.
…but they have to be proactively social.
Some people don’t like that, but it’s the reality of working remotely.
Also, get a standing desk. :)
Sitting all day is bad for you, and it forces you to take breaks.
> It’s extremely hard to be friends with your co-workers. You have to go out of your way to reach out and be available. Friendships don’t happen “organically” like they do in the office
…because, most people seem to think they can just on their asses all day, don’t post on slack, don’t talk to anyone other than on standup and just get work done.
So many tickets done.
So totally miserable.
I’ve seen first hand so many times the last couple of years. There’s only so much you can do to reach out to people and give them the opportunity to engage.
…but they have to be proactively social.
Some people don’t like that, but it’s the reality of working remotely.
Also, get a standing desk. :)
Sitting all day is bad for you, and it forces you to take breaks.
>> It’s extremely hard to be friends with your co-workers. You have to go out of your way to reach out and be available. Friendships don’t happen “organically” like they do in the office
>…because, most people seem to think they can just on their asses all day, don’t post on slack, don’t talk to anyone other than on standup and just get work done.
>So many tickets done.
>So totally miserable.
Oh no, people being productive at their jobs. I went remote for this, so I don't have to socialize at work and can actually get things done. My friends exist outside of the work sphere.
>…because, most people seem to think they can just on their asses all day, don’t post on slack, don’t talk to anyone other than on standup and just get work done.
>So many tickets done.
>So totally miserable.
Oh no, people being productive at their jobs. I went remote for this, so I don't have to socialize at work and can actually get things done. My friends exist outside of the work sphere.
I’m not saying it makes everyone miserable.
I’m saying I’ve seen it make lots of people miserable.
…and you won’t make friends or build relationships with your work mates if you don’t put effort into it.
You may not care; that’s fine.
If you’re a happy and don’t care what coworkers think of you, do whatever makes you happy.
I was responding to the OP which was about things they struggled with about remote working.
What are you responding to, other than “lol that’s not me”?
Good for you. If you’re happy, why did you bother to respond?
What’s your advice? How do you deal with the issues the OP mentioned?
I tend to get responses like this from people who are being defensive about putting no effort into their professional relationships.
It’s fine. If that’s a thing you place no value in, don’t do it.
I’m saying I’ve seen it make lots of people miserable.
…and you won’t make friends or build relationships with your work mates if you don’t put effort into it.
You may not care; that’s fine.
If you’re a happy and don’t care what coworkers think of you, do whatever makes you happy.
I was responding to the OP which was about things they struggled with about remote working.
What are you responding to, other than “lol that’s not me”?
Good for you. If you’re happy, why did you bother to respond?
What’s your advice? How do you deal with the issues the OP mentioned?
I tend to get responses like this from people who are being defensive about putting no effort into their professional relationships.
It’s fine. If that’s a thing you place no value in, don’t do it.
I wouldn't say your coworkers should be Friends with a capital F, but a certain level of friendship is very helpful. Like it or not, your coworkers are humans and they have emotions. A little socialization helps see people as humans and give them the benefit of the doubt when there's a misunderstanding, overcome other communication hurdles, etc.
I'm sorry that you think being productive at your job is the only thing that's important in your life. Maybe you've just gotten really unlucky with the people you work with, but for me, finding people I actually enjoy spending time with really improved my quality of life at work significantly.
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> So many tickets done. So totally miserable.
Sorry, I can’t hear you over having a life outside of work. (That life is almost entirely centered around my dog, we have amazing adventures almost every day, AMA)
> Sitting all day is bad for you, and it forces you to take breaks.
So it’s only mostly bad for you ;)
Sorry, I can’t hear you over having a life outside of work. (That life is almost entirely centered around my dog, we have amazing adventures almost every day, AMA)
> Sitting all day is bad for you, and it forces you to take breaks.
So it’s only mostly bad for you ;)
"Working with people you're friends with" and "having a life outside of work" are extremely not mutually exclusive. You can work with people you enjoy working with and still work 8 hours a day.
> I have solutions to a lot of these problems. I just don’t always have the mental strength to actually use the solutions.
This is the key, I think. Even in a general sense, very few of the problems we face in day-to-day life are unsolvable. But having the discipline and strength to actually implement those solutions -- especially when they require sustained effort -- can be really hard.
I've been running into this too lately, now that I have more time on my hands. I've picked most of the low-hanging fruit from my personal project list, and it's hard to find the motivation to keep going. Lately I've been spending a lot of time watching TV shows and movies, reading books, and reading random things on the internet (like HN). These aren't pointless activities, but I'd like to be spending more of my time on activities that I personally find more valuable.
This is the key, I think. Even in a general sense, very few of the problems we face in day-to-day life are unsolvable. But having the discipline and strength to actually implement those solutions -- especially when they require sustained effort -- can be really hard.
I've been running into this too lately, now that I have more time on my hands. I've picked most of the low-hanging fruit from my personal project list, and it's hard to find the motivation to keep going. Lately I've been spending a lot of time watching TV shows and movies, reading books, and reading random things on the internet (like HN). These aren't pointless activities, but I'd like to be spending more of my time on activities that I personally find more valuable.
I've been working remotely on and off for 20 years, and consistently for the last 10 years.
A few suggestions:
- Choose to not make every day the same. You're free! Once or twice a week, take a train or bus to a different place for the day, somewhere with good cell signal. Work from a national park, or a beach, a café, pub, museum, library, take a river cruise... whatever. There's nowhere in the world that has nothing to offer. Just get into the habit of picking somewhere different than home and going there to work for a day. In your breaks and before/after working, explore, relax... Just enjoy yourself somehow.
- Be deliberate about arranging calls with coworkers, friends, family. Just hang out on a call. Go for a walk while you take these calls, or do something other than sit in a chair.
- If you don't already have hobbies, you want to discover some that you enjoy. Do something that creates nice memories with your spare time, and that isn't the same as your work, or just relaxing. Once you've got one or more hobbies, if you're missing social interaction, find a (local/regional/national/International) group, meet up, society or some other form of community. Join it and participate. In person, online, maybe travel to go to events related to it. You'll quickly find your people this way. There are friends and partners out there for everyone.
- if you're not happy with where you live... move! It might not seem possible, but it is. Whatever the hurdles, you can get over them. Remote work is freedom to choose your environment. Choose it.
A few suggestions:
- Choose to not make every day the same. You're free! Once or twice a week, take a train or bus to a different place for the day, somewhere with good cell signal. Work from a national park, or a beach, a café, pub, museum, library, take a river cruise... whatever. There's nowhere in the world that has nothing to offer. Just get into the habit of picking somewhere different than home and going there to work for a day. In your breaks and before/after working, explore, relax... Just enjoy yourself somehow.
- Be deliberate about arranging calls with coworkers, friends, family. Just hang out on a call. Go for a walk while you take these calls, or do something other than sit in a chair.
- If you don't already have hobbies, you want to discover some that you enjoy. Do something that creates nice memories with your spare time, and that isn't the same as your work, or just relaxing. Once you've got one or more hobbies, if you're missing social interaction, find a (local/regional/national/International) group, meet up, society or some other form of community. Join it and participate. In person, online, maybe travel to go to events related to it. You'll quickly find your people this way. There are friends and partners out there for everyone.
- if you're not happy with where you live... move! It might not seem possible, but it is. Whatever the hurdles, you can get over them. Remote work is freedom to choose your environment. Choose it.
> Be deliberate about arranging calls with coworkers, friends, family. Just hang out on a call. Go for a walk while you take these calls, or do something other than sit in a chair.
I'll second this. I started a new remote job recently where we're encouraged to regularly schedule virtual coffee time with coworkers where we don't talk about work. It goes a long way towards fostering relationships.
I'll second this. I started a new remote job recently where we're encouraged to regularly schedule virtual coffee time with coworkers where we don't talk about work. It goes a long way towards fostering relationships.
You're telling me your solution is to do the same thing we used to do with forced birthday party celebrations, but more frequently? UGH!
Personally I don't really enjoy group or regularly scheduled mandatory hangout calls. What I really enjoy is just pinging someone to say 'hey, free to chat after work?' and then if they are I go for a walk and call them.
Not everyone is like you and that’s ok. Some people enjoy having connections with other people, even if they’re not best friends.
> national park
I've been trying to keep track of park locations near me that have
- restrooms
- tables with shade, if shade comes from tree there must not be lots of birds shitting from tree
- 4G/5G signal
- not hot mid-day
It's hard to actually get work done without all of the above.
Separately, an EV makes an excellent mobile office. You can use the car's power and air conditioning all day without "idling" an engine. Just pack a lunch, drive to a scenic vista point that has a restroom and cell signal and you're all set.
I've been trying to keep track of park locations near me that have
- restrooms
- tables with shade, if shade comes from tree there must not be lots of birds shitting from tree
- 4G/5G signal
- not hot mid-day
It's hard to actually get work done without all of the above.
Separately, an EV makes an excellent mobile office. You can use the car's power and air conditioning all day without "idling" an engine. Just pack a lunch, drive to a scenic vista point that has a restroom and cell signal and you're all set.
I had found a perfect work-from-cafe-outdoors spot
Until a bird shit on my head
My quest continues
Until a bird shit on my head
My quest continues
At the office, power lines cross the parking lot. Birds like the power lines. I've been hit between the car and the front door. So, the office isn't perfectly safe on this front either.
> Choose to not make every day the same. You're free!
For us, once we all went remote, the day just started earlier. Whereas we used to start at 10 we begun starting meetings at 8. The assumption being that nobody is commuting, so why not start the day earlier? This also helped accommodate others in non-Pacific Americas timezones. This means you have to jump straight into meetings and each day can't be materially different, unless you make your after work life different.
> Be deliberate about arranging calls with coworkers, friends, family. Just hang out on a call.
We tried this but it wasn't the same. Eventually, everyone ended up on their phones while on the call and slowly nobody started showing up to social Zooms. Zoom calls are fine for work but just don't allow the same sense of presence that being in the same space in real life would offer.
> If you don't already have hobbies, you want to discover some that you enjoy. Do something that creates nice memories with your spare time, and that isn't the same as your work, or just relaxing.
But my coworkers and I have so much shared context. We spend 8 hours+ together. It feels like a waste to pretend that we just don't have anything in common despite the time.
Don't get me wrong I love how easy it is to start my day and how little time is wasted commuting. I love the coffee I make at home and I love being able to eat my home cooking or talk with my partner over lunch. Being able to use my home bathroom is majestic. But there's definitely things lost working remote. Maybe if you're a remote worker at a hybrid or in-office company where expectations around most employees are in the office, the above works, but at a full remote company I'm not so sure.
For us, once we all went remote, the day just started earlier. Whereas we used to start at 10 we begun starting meetings at 8. The assumption being that nobody is commuting, so why not start the day earlier? This also helped accommodate others in non-Pacific Americas timezones. This means you have to jump straight into meetings and each day can't be materially different, unless you make your after work life different.
> Be deliberate about arranging calls with coworkers, friends, family. Just hang out on a call.
We tried this but it wasn't the same. Eventually, everyone ended up on their phones while on the call and slowly nobody started showing up to social Zooms. Zoom calls are fine for work but just don't allow the same sense of presence that being in the same space in real life would offer.
> If you don't already have hobbies, you want to discover some that you enjoy. Do something that creates nice memories with your spare time, and that isn't the same as your work, or just relaxing.
But my coworkers and I have so much shared context. We spend 8 hours+ together. It feels like a waste to pretend that we just don't have anything in common despite the time.
Don't get me wrong I love how easy it is to start my day and how little time is wasted commuting. I love the coffee I make at home and I love being able to eat my home cooking or talk with my partner over lunch. Being able to use my home bathroom is majestic. But there's definitely things lost working remote. Maybe if you're a remote worker at a hybrid or in-office company where expectations around most employees are in the office, the above works, but at a full remote company I'm not so sure.
> But my coworkers and I have so much shared context. We spend 8 hours+ together. It feels like a waste to pretend that we just don't have anything in common despite the time.
I think that what is kind of unsaid and lost here is that long working hours in office were super often about socialization and not work itself. I mean, it was noticeable even before - people who were there long hours tend to chat away a lot of times both in and out of meetings.
But, it looked like work, it was pleasant and rewarded.
I think that what is kind of unsaid and lost here is that long working hours in office were super often about socialization and not work itself. I mean, it was noticeable even before - people who were there long hours tend to chat away a lot of times both in and out of meetings.
But, it looked like work, it was pleasant and rewarded.
I've never seen this at any Western STEM company I've been at. ICs have been rated on tickets and tickets alone, no matter how lossy the metric, in my experience. I've only seen this at Asian companies which don't track work through tickets.
But let's assume this is true. What does this have to do with "It feels like a waste to pretend that we just don't have anything in common despite the time.". Let's assume, to play devil's advocate, that 40% of your 8 hour day is a waste, that 3.2 hours of your day was a waste used to prop up performance reviews. This leaves 4.8 hours of a day with your coworkers actually working. That's 4.8 hours of building connection. To recreate this effect, I'd need to equivalently spend 4.8 hours per day connecting/socializing with others to build the same rapport. That's more than I've ever spent in any social context with friends sans events like week-long concerts or vacations and those are special occasions. This 4.8 hours of daily connection is now lost under a scenario where people don't form bonds at work.
I'm not sure how this complaint is relevant. Just because the time was superfluous or used to pad performance reviews, a claim that seems dubious for ticket-based companies, doesn't negate the time spent connecting. Getting annoyed/angry at a culture that rewards face-time is unrelated to the reality of time spent together in the same context.
But let's assume this is true. What does this have to do with "It feels like a waste to pretend that we just don't have anything in common despite the time.". Let's assume, to play devil's advocate, that 40% of your 8 hour day is a waste, that 3.2 hours of your day was a waste used to prop up performance reviews. This leaves 4.8 hours of a day with your coworkers actually working. That's 4.8 hours of building connection. To recreate this effect, I'd need to equivalently spend 4.8 hours per day connecting/socializing with others to build the same rapport. That's more than I've ever spent in any social context with friends sans events like week-long concerts or vacations and those are special occasions. This 4.8 hours of daily connection is now lost under a scenario where people don't form bonds at work.
I'm not sure how this complaint is relevant. Just because the time was superfluous or used to pad performance reviews, a claim that seems dubious for ticket-based companies, doesn't negate the time spent connecting. Getting annoyed/angry at a culture that rewards face-time is unrelated to the reality of time spent together in the same context.
I have never seen rating IC on tickets and never worked in Asian nor with Asians. But, I have worked in companies where culture was to do a lot of overtime and not overtime. The people in overtime cultures socialized primary within company. People in non-overtime one much less so.
> That's 4.8 hours of building connection.
No, a non-overtime company does not have you building connection 3-4.8 hours a day. That is huge amount of time and does not happen in that setup, unless you are all slacking.
> That's 4.8 hours of building connection.
No, a non-overtime company does not have you building connection 3-4.8 hours a day. That is huge amount of time and does not happen in that setup, unless you are all slacking.
Honestly, how can you all be so unwilling to push back that you tolerate starting at 8 instead of 10 because the commute vanished? I'd walk if the longer day was enforced rigidly (e.g. by constant monitoring or meetings).
Because it's easier on the non-Pacific time folks. Instead of Eastern time folks starting at 1300, they start at 1100. It also helps coworkers who want to move to other parts of the US, at the expense of those of us still in Pacific timezones. This way Eastern time folks can sign off at 1900 instead of 2100, which makes it easier for us to work synchronously if needed across the US. Before we went all remote we tended to hire in the same time zone but now we hire across the US. Pacific time workers have to take the early bird hit. If we operated the same as before then we'd have extra morning time, but going remote means we now hire many more coworker in other timezones. It's a double edged sword.
We do also tend to end earlier. I don't care because I'm a night owl, but early bird coworkers seem to enjoy the extra time. And yes I've considered walking but haven't yet because I'm not so sure it's that different in other companies I'm interested in at my level.
We do also tend to end earlier. I don't care because I'm a night owl, but early bird coworkers seem to enjoy the extra time. And yes I've considered walking but haven't yet because I'm not so sure it's that different in other companies I'm interested in at my level.
Ah right. 'Ending earlier' is definitely crucial information. I hope 'tend to' means >> 50% of the time.
Yeah tend to means "> 90%" as it heavily inconveniences Eastern time employees if we go later.
> Remote work is freedom to choose your environment. Choose it.
Sort of. First your employer needs to approve of where you’re going to live assuming it is out of state or country. There are a variety of legal and tax implications.
The first remote company I worked for had a list of approved states, for instance. I assume this is common.
Sort of. First your employer needs to approve of where you’re going to live assuming it is out of state or country. There are a variety of legal and tax implications.
The first remote company I worked for had a list of approved states, for instance. I assume this is common.
Employer doesn’t have to approve shit. They probably won’t even know, I’ll leave my address the same as what it is, and just forward my mail. It isn’t really their business.
> It isn’t really their business.
State governments that collect income taxes beg to differ. Heck, your employer probably disagrees with you too! Heck, even federal governments that are collecting taxes beg to differ.
Good for you if you can keep the secret though, it’s probably illegal in one way or another.
State governments that collect income taxes beg to differ. Heck, your employer probably disagrees with you too! Heck, even federal governments that are collecting taxes beg to differ.
Good for you if you can keep the secret though, it’s probably illegal in one way or another.
Getting a dog and a bunch of hobbies was huge for me too.
Need to get out of your headspace and ideally out of the office.
Need to get out of your headspace and ideally out of the office.
Everyone talks about losing focus at home, oversleeping, and doing other activities during the work day. For some reason I've had the opposite problem. I used to get into the office around 8 AM, take a lunch break, go grab dessert or take a walk in the garden later, etc. Then I'd leave around 4:30 PM and forget about work until the next day.
Now I wake up at 5:00 AM and basically work non-stop in the same spot (sometimes a coffee shop in the morning) until 6:30 PM. I skip breakfast and lunch altogether, because I've found that without walking around the office campus I gain weight too quickly.
It's like the saying about hard drives: however much more space they get, people still find a way to fill them up. Same thing with my time apparently.
Now I wake up at 5:00 AM and basically work non-stop in the same spot (sometimes a coffee shop in the morning) until 6:30 PM. I skip breakfast and lunch altogether, because I've found that without walking around the office campus I gain weight too quickly.
It's like the saying about hard drives: however much more space they get, people still find a way to fill them up. Same thing with my time apparently.
Now I wake up at 5:00 AM and basically work non-stop in the same spot (sometimes a coffee shop in the morning) until 6:30 PM. I skip breakfast and lunch altogether, because I've found that without walking around the office campus I gain weight too quickly.
It sounds like you filled the extra time gained through WFH mostly with more work. Try filling it up with social activities, exercise, going outside etc. You might start feeling a lot better and not have to worry about weight.
It sounds like you filled the extra time gained through WFH mostly with more work. Try filling it up with social activities, exercise, going outside etc. You might start feeling a lot better and not have to worry about weight.
If the OP is correct in their assessment, they work 13.5 hours per day - that sound way too much to me, especially as they previously used to work 8.5 hours minus breaks...
I'm personally happy to put in a productive 9-5 and don't see a need to regularly work 60-70 hour weeks.
I'm personally happy to put in a productive 9-5 and don't see a need to regularly work 60-70 hour weeks.
> oversleeping
It is nit overstepping, it is finally having chance to sleep away that sleep debt.
But for the rest, what actually worked for me was to have commitment at end of workday. Ideally something that forces you to finish (a gym class, activity with friend/kids etc). But even if not, something as simple ritual of "I play guitar 17:00 sharp for 15 minutes and then exercise another 15 minutes" did the trick. It takes you mentally away from work and in few weeks creates habit.
It is nit overstepping, it is finally having chance to sleep away that sleep debt.
But for the rest, what actually worked for me was to have commitment at end of workday. Ideally something that forces you to finish (a gym class, activity with friend/kids etc). But even if not, something as simple ritual of "I play guitar 17:00 sharp for 15 minutes and then exercise another 15 minutes" did the trick. It takes you mentally away from work and in few weeks creates habit.
sleep debt is not something you need 6 months to cover, more like a long weekend or a week max if something obscure had happened (ie 2 month long drug binge running at the limit of exhaustion)
For many of these reasons which I also experience, I was hoping there'd be more of a blend of home/in-office emerge.
Instead in both programming jobs Ive had post pandemic, it is all remote. I've met my workmates in person perhaps thrice despite working at the company for a year. It is surreal.
> it feels like I’m living in Groundhog Day everyday. Every single day looks exactly the same
This in particular, and it is even worse if you live alone.
Instead in both programming jobs Ive had post pandemic, it is all remote. I've met my workmates in person perhaps thrice despite working at the company for a year. It is surreal.
> it feels like I’m living in Groundhog Day everyday. Every single day looks exactly the same
This in particular, and it is even worse if you live alone.
Have you considered coworking at a closer destination?
I've been working on distributed teams since around 2011, though I have been contracting from home for five years before that. In the very first distributed team I joined, the eng director made it a point to:
I found that the daily standup was an important synchronization point for remote-first and distributed teams.
I've been working on distributed teams since around 2011, though I have been contracting from home for five years before that. In the very first distributed team I joined, the eng director made it a point to:
- Have everyone gather in-person periodically by flying everyone to HQ
- Making coworking spaces available
- Traveling to the different cities to meet with the team
- Setting "core hours", a subset of the regular business hours of the US timezones
I found that the daily standup was an important synchronization point for remote-first and distributed teams.
Co-working is not a substitute for working with teammates. To give an extreme example, "Hey, I wish I had a live in partner who gave me hugs and shared in my ups and downs but I don't" -> "You could hang out at a coffee shop and talk to random people" (not as a way to meet someone but as a substitute for having a partner)
There's something about working on the same project, collaborating, brainstorming, in the same space, that is missing from remote work. Hanging out at a co-working space gives you the presence of other people but not the camaraderie of actually working on the same project.
Maybe if you never felt that camaraderie then you don't know what you've been missing.
There's something about working on the same project, collaborating, brainstorming, in the same space, that is missing from remote work. Hanging out at a co-working space gives you the presence of other people but not the camaraderie of actually working on the same project.
Maybe if you never felt that camaraderie then you don't know what you've been missing.
You can still have that by getting the team together every so often for a week or two of intensive meetings and planning. Many companies new to remote since COVID have skipped this part, maybe because it would mean admitting that remote is here to stay and not just a temporary contingency.
In my experience, meetings and planning are exactly the opposite of the enjoyable moments of being on an in-person team working on a project together. It is the impromptu ideas, brainstorming sessions, late nights figuring something out, that create a shared experience worth having, in my opinion.
> late nights
Nothing is universal, but I can't help but assume that the work-from-office cohort is VERY disproportionately young. People whose lives are not yet as full as they likely will be a decade in the future, and for whom their job may be at the center of their personal socialization.
I remember the shared experience that you're describing, and sure... it's great to have a few years of that when you're fresh out of school, working your first couple jobs as a junior dev, and transitioning out of that college student lifestyle. But I was married at 25, and had two children in my 30's. I am OVER late nights for the sake of late nights, and think that's normal and healthy by the time you're a mid to senior level professional.
Nothing is universal, but I can't help but assume that the work-from-office cohort is VERY disproportionately young. People whose lives are not yet as full as they likely will be a decade in the future, and for whom their job may be at the center of their personal socialization.
I remember the shared experience that you're describing, and sure... it's great to have a few years of that when you're fresh out of school, working your first couple jobs as a junior dev, and transitioning out of that college student lifestyle. But I was married at 25, and had two children in my 30's. I am OVER late nights for the sake of late nights, and think that's normal and healthy by the time you're a mid to senior level professional.
Yes, having a shared purpose for a team working together in the same place is difficult to replicate.
I'd argue though that, people used to have that with their local community, and it has since been replaced with working in jobs far away from home and the local community. This shift in working has not always been the default mode that civilization has collaborated, and a remote-first culture might enable some of the good things that come with being a part of a community along with modern technology.
In my other comment, I suggested reconnecting with that local community. Maybe if you never felt that camarderie with the community you live with, then perhaps you don't know what you've been missing.
I'd argue though that, people used to have that with their local community, and it has since been replaced with working in jobs far away from home and the local community. This shift in working has not always been the default mode that civilization has collaborated, and a remote-first culture might enable some of the good things that come with being a part of a community along with modern technology.
In my other comment, I suggested reconnecting with that local community. Maybe if you never felt that camarderie with the community you live with, then perhaps you don't know what you've been missing.
I mean, it may not be the same thing but if they're really just looking for some comraderie, those "bar coder" meet ups where a bunch of local engineers meet up at different local bars once a week to talk about stuff and make contacts, might kind of fill the void.
I have been remote since 2018 and feel the same way. Prior to that I worked from the office 3 days a week and it was perfect.
I think the effects of everyone pushing all of their lives onto the internet are going to be negative, and probably will affect millennials and gen z for decades. I feel most sad for the kids who didn’t get to socialize in person for two years :/
I think the effects of everyone pushing all of their lives onto the internet are going to be negative, and probably will affect millennials and gen z for decades. I feel most sad for the kids who didn’t get to socialize in person for two years :/
I rearranged my life to get a remote job, which started in January 2020, a couple months before everyone in my industry was remote anyway. I'd always wanted to be fully remote, and for me it was absolutely the right choice. I'm so much happier now, not having to commute, not sitting next to the guy who bounces his leg all day, being able to run errands in the middle of the day, not feeling like I need to do busy work because someone is looking over my shoulder, or could be.
What is great is that, whereas before covid, it was a little harder to find a fully remote position, it's now really easy. But, at the same time, there are plenty of non-remote places too, so people who want that experience can find it, and they won't be competing with me for that job either.
There are even hybrid offices, where you can work on-site part of the time, and work from home part of the time.
Pretty much any setup you want is available to you with a readiness that wasn't there 3 years ago. It's just a better situation for workers over all.
So, if you don't like working remote, you don't have to!
What is great is that, whereas before covid, it was a little harder to find a fully remote position, it's now really easy. But, at the same time, there are plenty of non-remote places too, so people who want that experience can find it, and they won't be competing with me for that job either.
There are even hybrid offices, where you can work on-site part of the time, and work from home part of the time.
Pretty much any setup you want is available to you with a readiness that wasn't there 3 years ago. It's just a better situation for workers over all.
So, if you don't like working remote, you don't have to!
Unfortunately, covid case numbers in my area just do not support going back to the office, even if I wanted to. And regardless, my company got rid of their physical office entirely—so there would be nowhere to go back to even if I could return. I think most smaller companies are in a similar boat: why pay for an office if you can get away without?
And even if there was an office available, would there even be a benefit to going into the office to work with the 2 other people who are local if I still have to spend all of my time on video calls with the 8 other people who are remote? And the labor conditions have changed such that even if I could find a company and team that was fully local (and cared about it enough to give up my current team, whom I love working with otherwise), I probably wouldn't want to work with any team that was only hiring locally and made it a requirement. Just look at how many people associate working from an office with pointy haired management overreach! Who would even take that kind of job? Nobody who had any other options, that's for sure.
When the industry is moving to remote first, everybody gets swept up in the same tide.
And even if there was an office available, would there even be a benefit to going into the office to work with the 2 other people who are local if I still have to spend all of my time on video calls with the 8 other people who are remote? And the labor conditions have changed such that even if I could find a company and team that was fully local (and cared about it enough to give up my current team, whom I love working with otherwise), I probably wouldn't want to work with any team that was only hiring locally and made it a requirement. Just look at how many people associate working from an office with pointy haired management overreach! Who would even take that kind of job? Nobody who had any other options, that's for sure.
When the industry is moving to remote first, everybody gets swept up in the same tide.
I feel what is always left out of these discussions is that my “office” time before the pandemic was already spent collaborating with people in other locations over Teams/Zoom/Slack. I was just wasting an hour at the beginning and end of each day to commute for the privilege of doing the remote work in an open office environment with everyone else on conference calls as well
That literally comes up every time there is this discussion.
> I have solutions to a lot of these problems. I just don’t always have the mental strength to actually use the solutions. And the weeks when I slip feel like I'm falling.
People who compete in the Olympics had to work very hard to get there. People who manage their time needed to learn how to do so, and then actually do it.
Like Nike said, "Just Do It." There is no secret. Nothing you learn will make this magically happen. Just do it. There is no shortcut.
It takes some people decades to learn this. Others seem to know it subconsciously and appear to live a charmed life. The secret is that there is no secret. Just do it.
People who compete in the Olympics had to work very hard to get there. People who manage their time needed to learn how to do so, and then actually do it.
Like Nike said, "Just Do It." There is no secret. Nothing you learn will make this magically happen. Just do it. There is no shortcut.
It takes some people decades to learn this. Others seem to know it subconsciously and appear to live a charmed life. The secret is that there is no secret. Just do it.
There is a secret: setting your life up to make “just doing it” more likely to happen.
I live by work to make sure I have no excuse to not start my day. I find someone at an office to go to the gym with me at lunch, and people at the gym who are there at the same time. I grab food with other people who I know are healthy. I pick up my son, who I also make sure goes to school near work and home, and put down my phone when I’m with him.
Work from home makes only one of those things simple and self reinforcing. Without a standard office I often feel like my life is falling apart.
And I’m not the only one! I fully expect sentiment on wfh to come full circle within the next two years.
I live by work to make sure I have no excuse to not start my day. I find someone at an office to go to the gym with me at lunch, and people at the gym who are there at the same time. I grab food with other people who I know are healthy. I pick up my son, who I also make sure goes to school near work and home, and put down my phone when I’m with him.
Work from home makes only one of those things simple and self reinforcing. Without a standard office I often feel like my life is falling apart.
And I’m not the only one! I fully expect sentiment on wfh to come full circle within the next two years.
Took me about 5 years to build good work from home habits.
As the world opens up, working from home doesn’t have to mean living from home. A lot of structure and friendship can come from self-selected groups and activities, not just those who the organization put on your team.
The author mentions a lack of willpower to implement solutions, and I totally get it, so if there’s just one thing I would strongly suggest getting a personal trainer, which several people described changing their lives in a thread yesterday. I got one when I was having trouble with energy mid pandemic, and even though I chose not to continue with her in specific, the kickstart was fantastic
The author mentions a lack of willpower to implement solutions, and I totally get it, so if there’s just one thing I would strongly suggest getting a personal trainer, which several people described changing their lives in a thread yesterday. I got one when I was having trouble with energy mid pandemic, and even though I chose not to continue with her in specific, the kickstart was fantastic
> working from home doesn’t have to mean living from home
Work from home. Live in the office. Keep 'em guessing. Blaze your own trail.
Work from home. Live in the office. Keep 'em guessing. Blaze your own trail.
This is a great idea! I’m having trouble advancing with my fitness too so this will probably put me in a better state physically and emotionally. Thank you!
They should get a dog
- it forces you to wake up at a certain time
- you get some exercise in
- you go outside and have micro social interactions
- if you take them out at a certain time after work, it’ll come let you know that it’s time, so you won’t overwork
- they’re great antidepressants
- great for company when your partner is gone 4AM to 7PM
- it forces you to wake up at a certain time
- you get some exercise in
- you go outside and have micro social interactions
- if you take them out at a certain time after work, it’ll come let you know that it’s time, so you won’t overwork
- they’re great antidepressants
- great for company when your partner is gone 4AM to 7PM
Counterpoint: they require a lot of care and attention, and expense. You can't easily just pick up and go, you now need someone to look after the animal, every time.
You can get exercise and social contact besides (although on the latter point, animals can provide some comfort, but they don't sub for a social life). I think the valid reason for wanting a dog is wanting a dog, and tolerating if not enjoying the lifestyle that it requires. There are a lot of owners out there who think they want a pet, and then they end up neglected or at a shelter (or the owner does their job, but regrets their choice).
You can get exercise and social contact besides (although on the latter point, animals can provide some comfort, but they don't sub for a social life). I think the valid reason for wanting a dog is wanting a dog, and tolerating if not enjoying the lifestyle that it requires. There are a lot of owners out there who think they want a pet, and then they end up neglected or at a shelter (or the owner does their job, but regrets their choice).
> Counterpoint: they require a lot of care and attention, and expense. You can't easily just pick up and go, you now need someone to look after the animal, every time.
I'm being pedantic here but not all dog breeds require the same level of care, attention and expense. For example, in India, an Indian Pariah Dog is probably the most healthy and behaviorally balanced dog breed you can get. They don't have any exotic food requirements, they don't need regular grooming, they shed minimally, and they're happy with decent exercise. I've heard Greyhounds are somewhat similar but I don't have experience with them so I'm not completely sure.
But yeah, I agree that people shouldn't get dogs on a whim. When they do, those dogs almost always end up on the road or in a shelter.
I'm being pedantic here but not all dog breeds require the same level of care, attention and expense. For example, in India, an Indian Pariah Dog is probably the most healthy and behaviorally balanced dog breed you can get. They don't have any exotic food requirements, they don't need regular grooming, they shed minimally, and they're happy with decent exercise. I've heard Greyhounds are somewhat similar but I don't have experience with them so I'm not completely sure.
But yeah, I agree that people shouldn't get dogs on a whim. When they do, those dogs almost always end up on the road or in a shelter.
This is all true. I moved to SF and really enjoy the fact that I can walk out my door, hop on BART, get out 40 minutes later in an international airport, and go anywhere I want. Except… it’s going to cost a few hundred dollars extra every couple of days for dog and cat boarding, and I need to get that boarding reserved far in advance, then arrange transportation for my pets to get to the boarding center, and then plan my return so I arrive at a very specific time so I can pick them up. I love my animals, but they come with a real cost of time, money, and freedom.
I think this is good advice. Sadly in some places it's hard to have dog. Example, went to an apartment site, ~2000 listings available. Checked "allows dog", dropped to ~280
But, unless that's prior to filtering on location, that sounds like enough? You have to narrow it down somehow.
Don't tell your landlord. If your dog is registered as service you don't have to declare it.
Don't actually do this.
Depending on the state, declaring is not required if your dog is service or emotional support.
The problem I’m seeing is the people who see work as:
* completing tasks
vs
* who see work as a piece of their life
People _need_ social interaction (this is an indisputable fact of being human) and remote work divorces the social from the productive for the first time in history (there are jobs where you are isolated for periods like oil rig workers, but this is on a completely new scale).
There aren’t any proven methods to manage this, so your experience is largely dictated by your social reserves and social skills/circle (outside of work).
* completing tasks
vs
* who see work as a piece of their life
People _need_ social interaction (this is an indisputable fact of being human) and remote work divorces the social from the productive for the first time in history (there are jobs where you are isolated for periods like oil rig workers, but this is on a completely new scale).
There aren’t any proven methods to manage this, so your experience is largely dictated by your social reserves and social skills/circle (outside of work).
People can still be social when working remotely.
People can be satisfied working remotely without having social reserves and social skills/circle.
I definitely consider myself closer to someone who sees work as a piece of their life than someone who completes tasks for money. I love working remotely.
People can be satisfied working remotely without having social reserves and social skills/circle.
I definitely consider myself closer to someone who sees work as a piece of their life than someone who completes tasks for money. I love working remotely.
I’m not implying differently. But it’s not built-in to the structure.
Nothing is built into the structure. I think folks are taking this for granted. You have to consciously create such structure regardless of the conditions. It's possible to have anti-social office environments too.
In person it is built-in implicitly, people will be social naturally by proximity alone. Anti-social in person environments are de facto considered problematic.
Anti-social remote is also problematic. Why would it not be?
It’s not, but many people feel like it is. In order to uphold this via remote you have to make a concerted effort, which to people, makes it different.
I’m not arguing against work being only a part of life, but that most remote jobs cannot be broken down into pieces like an assembly line where socializing is unnecessary. Jobs cannot be completely compartmentalized.
I’m not arguing against work being only a part of life, but that most remote jobs cannot be broken down into pieces like an assembly line where socializing is unnecessary. Jobs cannot be completely compartmentalized.
Thank you for speaking up for those of us who think WFH is overrated.
This is the first time perhaps in my life where I have been beaten over the head by the in-group that I am in the out-group. I'm a mostly straight, white man who never had to worry about being targeted due to who I am, and who never had to worry about food or housing. I'm smart and never had to work to get into college or get a good job.
Reading HN makes me feel like I'm insane to think that WFH is a major societal change that will hurt many people, especially younger people who are just getting into the workforce.
Kids who just went through two years of remote study, who will now be thrown onto macbooks shipped to them and told how to do their coding and learn corporate culture and understand their fucking job that is a third of their life from a desk at their house. Good luck making new friends. Hope you're religious or an alcoholic or a sex addict, because that's how you meet people in the digital age.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills to think that interacting with people in person for some portion of the third of my life that is work is silly. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills to think that I should get some kind of social fulfillment out of the activity that I must complete to buy a table and put food on it.
I felt out of place today even chatting 30 seconds worth of brainstorming overtime on a zoom call, because no one "just talks" on zoom anymore to work out problems. We just zone out on Slack and trudge through our shitty WFH job, having many meetings but struggling to reach out for help.
I know WFH is good for many people and for many family situations, but I think the highlight of my professional IT life will have been my mid twenties when I really liked my coworkers and could actually feel like the work I was doing was a fun activity.
This is the first time perhaps in my life where I have been beaten over the head by the in-group that I am in the out-group. I'm a mostly straight, white man who never had to worry about being targeted due to who I am, and who never had to worry about food or housing. I'm smart and never had to work to get into college or get a good job.
Reading HN makes me feel like I'm insane to think that WFH is a major societal change that will hurt many people, especially younger people who are just getting into the workforce.
Kids who just went through two years of remote study, who will now be thrown onto macbooks shipped to them and told how to do their coding and learn corporate culture and understand their fucking job that is a third of their life from a desk at their house. Good luck making new friends. Hope you're religious or an alcoholic or a sex addict, because that's how you meet people in the digital age.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills to think that interacting with people in person for some portion of the third of my life that is work is silly. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills to think that I should get some kind of social fulfillment out of the activity that I must complete to buy a table and put food on it.
I felt out of place today even chatting 30 seconds worth of brainstorming overtime on a zoom call, because no one "just talks" on zoom anymore to work out problems. We just zone out on Slack and trudge through our shitty WFH job, having many meetings but struggling to reach out for help.
I know WFH is good for many people and for many family situations, but I think the highlight of my professional IT life will have been my mid twenties when I really liked my coworkers and could actually feel like the work I was doing was a fun activity.
No one is brow beating people who want to work in an office, as long as you respect that lots of people don’t want to. If you want to, great; every job I’ve talked to a recruiter about in the past two years has been fully remote if you want it to be, or in office if you want. If actually letting people decide how they want to work is so oppressive to you then sorry; otherwise you’re just playing into middle manager power trips.
Being in an office alone/at a coffee shop is certainly better than being at home every day, but in person group collaboration doesn't work without a group.
Exactly. Most of the commenters already have a family and local social life, and probably know their colleagues from when they worked in the office together. It's totally different for graduates.
I think online and technical communities veer towards being introverted. A lot of people I know in finance or sales would have gone nuts with the amount of WFH tech people are still doing.
A lot of us are in the same boat, and I see some good advice here. But the pattern I see in the OP's observations is the lack of motion. The repetitive motion from home to work, work to home, is like breathing on a different time scale, and as annoying as the travel itself is, you are at least moving through the world. And when you're at work, you are with people who are facing the same mundane challenges of where to get lunch, where to find parking, traffic, weather and so-on - also, interestingly, mostly problems about moving through the world.
I haven't figured it out yet, but certainly a standing desk is now essential for my mental and physical health. Again, it falls under the umbrella of movement. Joining groups (which are still around - meetup.com is still around but clearly getting long in the tooth!) is a good idea. Going out to bars can be fun, too. Just seeing real faces, hearing real words -- it's very refreshing and good. We've all been in solitary confinement for a solid chunk of time, so now that the pandemic is cooling down, it's time to revel a bit in the joy of other humans!
I haven't figured it out yet, but certainly a standing desk is now essential for my mental and physical health. Again, it falls under the umbrella of movement. Joining groups (which are still around - meetup.com is still around but clearly getting long in the tooth!) is a good idea. Going out to bars can be fun, too. Just seeing real faces, hearing real words -- it's very refreshing and good. We've all been in solitary confinement for a solid chunk of time, so now that the pandemic is cooling down, it's time to revel a bit in the joy of other humans!
There’s no mention of motion in the post but as someone who did WFH for 2+ years before the pandemic, I can attest that even café hopping falls within the author’s first bulletpoint, which is that everyday is exactly the same. It’s expensive, too, since you can rarely just sit in a café without ordering anything.
Ergonomics is usually crap too
You can order only coffees though.
Today all I did was attend the standup meeting, had a brief huddle with a coworker on Slack, did about 2 hours of light work, then pretty much logged off the rest of the day just doing code reviews on my phone or answering a slack message. Basically nothing. Felt like a day off. And I frequently have days like this.
If I was in an office all those days would just be wasted time rather than actually using it for living my life. I really don’t understand how people could prefer living in an office and pretending coworkers are their friends rather than on their own terms.
The upside of having easy days like this is I genuinely enjoy immersing myself in the challenge of hard problems once in a while, with full energy to tackle them head on.
If I was in an office all those days would just be wasted time rather than actually using it for living my life. I really don’t understand how people could prefer living in an office and pretending coworkers are their friends rather than on their own terms.
The upside of having easy days like this is I genuinely enjoy immersing myself in the challenge of hard problems once in a while, with full energy to tackle them head on.
As a single guy in his early 30s, out of the things listed in the post, those I relate to most are probably having time that I don't know how to use effectively and difficulty in making friends and socializing locally.
That said, a couple years into remote work I'm starting to get a better grip on my free time usage, and I think friends will start to come naturally as I start to pick up classes and such once the pandemic situation improves.
As for the rest… For the most part all my days felt the same at the office too. Choosing a place to move to was a function of picking a place that was affordable and best suited my tastes. Schedule comes naturally to me because I feel terrible if I don't have one. The time I spend doing things I like I consider "meaningful" even if they don't amount to much. For exercise going on walks and a VR headset has helped a lot.
Overall while I miss some things about the office, the balance generally weighs in favor of remote work. At this point I think I'd only consider coming into the office if I were living within a 5-15m walk of it.
That said, a couple years into remote work I'm starting to get a better grip on my free time usage, and I think friends will start to come naturally as I start to pick up classes and such once the pandemic situation improves.
As for the rest… For the most part all my days felt the same at the office too. Choosing a place to move to was a function of picking a place that was affordable and best suited my tastes. Schedule comes naturally to me because I feel terrible if I don't have one. The time I spend doing things I like I consider "meaningful" even if they don't amount to much. For exercise going on walks and a VR headset has helped a lot.
Overall while I miss some things about the office, the balance generally weighs in favor of remote work. At this point I think I'd only consider coming into the office if I were living within a 5-15m walk of it.
Thank you for all the comments here! I’ve seen a lot of helpful suggestions here that I will definitely try. I think the problem is that I just started a job where I have a lot of autonomy over my time, which is amazing and exactly what I want. I am just finding it a bit hard to adjust after switching from a job where I barely had any control over how I use my time.
I think it will take time and some experimentation to get used to this freedom. These are just ramblings where I’m trying to identify what’s making me feel sad and how to fix it.
Again, thank you everyone for the great suggestions!
I think it will take time and some experimentation to get used to this freedom. These are just ramblings where I’m trying to identify what’s making me feel sad and how to fix it.
Again, thank you everyone for the great suggestions!
They can pry my home office from my dead, cold hands. I am never stepping foot into another godawful, soul-sucking office ever again.
The sole fact that I get to actually sleep like a human rather than waste away 2 hours of my life every single day travelling in the early morning is more than enough reason for me to never, EVER go back to an office. Not having to interact with the parasitic middle management types is also a big bonus, because I have actual friends outside of work and have ZERO interest in turning my co-workers jnto anything resembling friends.
The sole fact that I get to actually sleep like a human rather than waste away 2 hours of my life every single day travelling in the early morning is more than enough reason for me to never, EVER go back to an office. Not having to interact with the parasitic middle management types is also a big bonus, because I have actual friends outside of work and have ZERO interest in turning my co-workers jnto anything resembling friends.
We are a team of 150 with half of us in engineering. Half the engineers work on the product and they are split into a handful of teams. Half of the remainder of engineers are SRE, IT and dev tools.
We don’t know what we are doing and that’s ok because we have a core product that is the best in the world and the periphery to that is “so, what now?”. We have short and long term goals, and an extremely viable business with an excellent sales force. But yeah — for all the solidity of what we’ve built so far (and have been successful at selling) there’s ask a lot of blue sky above us and it’s all our jobs to reach for it.
Blue sky is a challenge because while don’t know how to get there, we can figure it out by talking, having ideas, finding out which ones rock, refining them, going off and hacking, and coming back and talking about it some more.
Things that work perfectly fine when working remotely: ideas, proofs of concept, hacking, thinking. Things that suck remotely: talking about stuff.
I would go crazy if I didn’t get the hybrid time in the office that I do, with my colleagues. Funnily, the top notch conversations are the ones that start in the office but then happen while we are walking around the business park on foot. How do you feel out a controversial idea on zoom when the call just ends and you have no soft touch ways of winding back from professional conflict? Does everyone who works remotely have some magical team juju that means they mostly agree on stuff all the time? Are you remote-first people all working on such clearly defined goals that you never have to go through the strife of what the goals should be in the first place?
We don’t know what we are doing and that’s ok because we have a core product that is the best in the world and the periphery to that is “so, what now?”. We have short and long term goals, and an extremely viable business with an excellent sales force. But yeah — for all the solidity of what we’ve built so far (and have been successful at selling) there’s ask a lot of blue sky above us and it’s all our jobs to reach for it.
Blue sky is a challenge because while don’t know how to get there, we can figure it out by talking, having ideas, finding out which ones rock, refining them, going off and hacking, and coming back and talking about it some more.
Things that work perfectly fine when working remotely: ideas, proofs of concept, hacking, thinking. Things that suck remotely: talking about stuff.
I would go crazy if I didn’t get the hybrid time in the office that I do, with my colleagues. Funnily, the top notch conversations are the ones that start in the office but then happen while we are walking around the business park on foot. How do you feel out a controversial idea on zoom when the call just ends and you have no soft touch ways of winding back from professional conflict? Does everyone who works remotely have some magical team juju that means they mostly agree on stuff all the time? Are you remote-first people all working on such clearly defined goals that you never have to go through the strife of what the goals should be in the first place?
> How do you feel out a controversial idea on zoom when the call just ends and you have no soft touch ways of winding back from professional conflict?
You do the same thing you'd do in person? Go snag a person (or people) for a conversation and talk? Or send an email or whatever, if you wouldn't ordinarily speak directly to them?
If -after more than two years of remote work- the folks you're working with haven't yet learned to respond to "Hey, do you have a minute?" in text chat in the same way that they'd respond to a face-to-face request, then I'm not sure what to say.
Though, if you spend most or all of your day managing people, rather than building things, I guess I can understand the point of view. From what I've seen, managers seem to be _far_, _faaaar_ less likely to be able to cope with not being in meatspace with their coworkers than ordinary line workers.
You do the same thing you'd do in person? Go snag a person (or people) for a conversation and talk? Or send an email or whatever, if you wouldn't ordinarily speak directly to them?
If -after more than two years of remote work- the folks you're working with haven't yet learned to respond to "Hey, do you have a minute?" in text chat in the same way that they'd respond to a face-to-face request, then I'm not sure what to say.
Though, if you spend most or all of your day managing people, rather than building things, I guess I can understand the point of view. From what I've seen, managers seem to be _far_, _faaaar_ less likely to be able to cope with not being in meatspace with their coworkers than ordinary line workers.
“ walking around the business park on foot” <- you nailed it, looking back at my career, the 1-1 time I got with managers or my co-workers walking together and informally talking things out is what made a lot of things efficient. It’s impossible to do this over Zoom. It’s just awkward.
These all sound like good problems to have. Seems like the first time the op has a chance to figure them self out and learn a bit about who they really are without work forcing it self to be their identify.
Probably jarring because our whole lives are so structured, from school, to college to our job on schedule. It's odd to break free mostly.
Embrace it, keep dabbling and trying and thinking. The rest will come.
Probably jarring because our whole lives are so structured, from school, to college to our job on schedule. It's odd to break free mostly.
Embrace it, keep dabbling and trying and thinking. The rest will come.
Thank you for this comment. You’re right. I had an extremely busy job before this one and now is the first time I have this much free time. Your comment makes me feel better! Thanks again!
Glad it helped :) Good luck with your new found free time
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> It’s extremely hard to be friends with your co-workers. You have to go out of your way to reach out and be available. Friendships don’t happen “organically” like they do in the office
Are people actually friends with their coworkers? I'm friendly with my coworkers, but I find actual friendship to be a conflict of interest. This is why I love working from coworking spaces. I can be friends with everyone I spend the whole day with, without worrying about it negatively impacting my work or vice versa.
Are people actually friends with their coworkers? I'm friendly with my coworkers, but I find actual friendship to be a conflict of interest. This is why I love working from coworking spaces. I can be friends with everyone I spend the whole day with, without worrying about it negatively impacting my work or vice versa.
I feel similarly. I happen to work with a lady who, being honest, shouldn't be a programmer at all, and basically just creates messes. But she is the kindest person, and at meetups is probably one of the friendliest and most talkative people. And not in a fake sugar cover my ass way or anything, a real genuine person.
I wouldn't call us friends by any means, but man does it create this giant conflict of interest in my head still.
On a similar note, I also helped a friend get a job with me a few years back. He was completely checked out, to the point I was ashamed to have ever recommended him. So I probably won't do that again, either.
I wouldn't call us friends by any means, but man does it create this giant conflict of interest in my head still.
On a similar note, I also helped a friend get a job with me a few years back. He was completely checked out, to the point I was ashamed to have ever recommended him. So I probably won't do that again, either.
"Conflict of interest"?
Understandable, but still weird: Is it our job to enforce work quality and productivity from our colleagues? Has "The Man" made us turn on each other?
I found that managers (representing the business) are not primarily focussed on eliminating underperformers; instead they are trying to have work done within the constraints they have - recruiting and retaining competent employees being a major constraint in today's workplace. It is management itself that wants you to work around and cover for weaker colleagues. Your boss is likely operating on a macro level, trying to defend the entire team through the ups and down of corporate restructurings.
I have realized that it was my own ego acting up, wanting to be seen as 'better', and complaining about 'unfair' work distribution. The honourable path is to try and enable the weaker team members, there are always tickets they can handle right? If you carry a heavier load, make sure it is reflected in your salary accordingly.
Understandable, but still weird: Is it our job to enforce work quality and productivity from our colleagues? Has "The Man" made us turn on each other?
I found that managers (representing the business) are not primarily focussed on eliminating underperformers; instead they are trying to have work done within the constraints they have - recruiting and retaining competent employees being a major constraint in today's workplace. It is management itself that wants you to work around and cover for weaker colleagues. Your boss is likely operating on a macro level, trying to defend the entire team through the ups and down of corporate restructurings.
I have realized that it was my own ego acting up, wanting to be seen as 'better', and complaining about 'unfair' work distribution. The honourable path is to try and enable the weaker team members, there are always tickets they can handle right? If you carry a heavier load, make sure it is reflected in your salary accordingly.
I’ve made many friends from previous jobs I still chat and hang out with.
I have worked from home, remote or on distributed teams far longer than I have working in-person and onsite, for over a decade.
I can't do much about having a harder time socializing and bonding with co-workers. On the distributed teams I have been at, there were periodic in-person gatherings (retreats, or everyone showing up for the same tech conference) where we can do things that is difficult by being remote. You'd have to take that up with your team and manager.
I can offer some words on some of the other things:
Probably the most important thing is to find and live in a purposeful way, whether that with in-person teams or on a remote-first team. That purpose is what gets you up in the morning, fuels your willpower and self-discipline.
A lot of people substitute external activity for that inner purpose. Unless someone has purposefully found a company whose mission aligns with their purpose, chances are, that person is using their job as a imperfect proxy for that purpose. That person, in having to rely on something outside of themselves to be self-disciplined, is not likely to do as good of a job as someone whose inner purpose aligns with the company's mission. I personally think this is close to the heart of what I see as malaise of modernism.
The other is that, if you can, try filling the extra time you would have gotten into commute to get to know your local community. Whether that is going to the coffee shop, volunteering for something local. I think a lot of people substitute a connection with their local community with their workplace. There's a sense of belonging, of place that happens in a company, at the expense of the local community.
If the local community you inhabit does not resonate with you, then finding one you feel you feel you belong to will guide you on where to move out to. It's helpful if you can find some place that is walkable, designed for humans to walk around, to live, to work, to play. Or perhaps, you find that you enjoy hiking and biking and outdoors, in which case moving to an area where you can do that would make more sense. Perhaps you enjoy being nomadic. You can make that happen with a remote-first, distributed team and a starlink subscription. Perhaps you like gardening or farming; working remote would let you work out from a rural area.
Finding the purpose within, and finding a community you belong to are things that, once you connected with, will endure through jobs in your career. Hope that helps.
I can't do much about having a harder time socializing and bonding with co-workers. On the distributed teams I have been at, there were periodic in-person gatherings (retreats, or everyone showing up for the same tech conference) where we can do things that is difficult by being remote. You'd have to take that up with your team and manager.
I can offer some words on some of the other things:
Probably the most important thing is to find and live in a purposeful way, whether that with in-person teams or on a remote-first team. That purpose is what gets you up in the morning, fuels your willpower and self-discipline.
A lot of people substitute external activity for that inner purpose. Unless someone has purposefully found a company whose mission aligns with their purpose, chances are, that person is using their job as a imperfect proxy for that purpose. That person, in having to rely on something outside of themselves to be self-disciplined, is not likely to do as good of a job as someone whose inner purpose aligns with the company's mission. I personally think this is close to the heart of what I see as malaise of modernism.
The other is that, if you can, try filling the extra time you would have gotten into commute to get to know your local community. Whether that is going to the coffee shop, volunteering for something local. I think a lot of people substitute a connection with their local community with their workplace. There's a sense of belonging, of place that happens in a company, at the expense of the local community.
If the local community you inhabit does not resonate with you, then finding one you feel you feel you belong to will guide you on where to move out to. It's helpful if you can find some place that is walkable, designed for humans to walk around, to live, to work, to play. Or perhaps, you find that you enjoy hiking and biking and outdoors, in which case moving to an area where you can do that would make more sense. Perhaps you enjoy being nomadic. You can make that happen with a remote-first, distributed team and a starlink subscription. Perhaps you like gardening or farming; working remote would let you work out from a rural area.
Finding the purpose within, and finding a community you belong to are things that, once you connected with, will endure through jobs in your career. Hope that helps.
> purpose is what gets you up in the morning, fuels your willpower and self-discipline
This! So much this.
> malaise of modernism
In the past, people could learn their values from literally a single book and it was enough for a lifetime.
Nowadays I have a chance to only slightly nudge any meaningful aspect in my entire lifetime. I now need to understand complex global systems and their local manifestations. That's quite a few books and blogs in itself, but it still would be a breeze without the rampant disinformation. The crux is that the people who managed to "bootstrap" and are standing on a solid foundation have no scalable social mechanism to pass it to others. Getting that ground under my feet honestly felt like 90% of the work.
The bar is just too high for many.
This! So much this.
> malaise of modernism
In the past, people could learn their values from literally a single book and it was enough for a lifetime.
Nowadays I have a chance to only slightly nudge any meaningful aspect in my entire lifetime. I now need to understand complex global systems and their local manifestations. That's quite a few books and blogs in itself, but it still would be a breeze without the rampant disinformation. The crux is that the people who managed to "bootstrap" and are standing on a solid foundation have no scalable social mechanism to pass it to others. Getting that ground under my feet honestly felt like 90% of the work.
The bar is just too high for many.
The very same article could be titled "What I don't like about being not determined in life"
It looks like people don't know what to do with their life and find work as a meaningful baseline that is acceptable in social gatherings.
It looks like people don't know what to do with their life and find work as a meaningful baseline that is acceptable in social gatherings.
Guy sounds like he lives alone and is depressed. I have exactly none of these problems. Go to sleep by 8:30, wake up around 3 every day, no alarms, no explicit schedule, no planning. It's just habit. I don't need to find stuff to do. I keep the house clean. Keep my car clean. Complete renovation projects. I don't find it takes much mental energy at all to work out every day. What the heck else am I gonna do waking up at 3 AM? I don't want to be friends with my co-workers. I've already got my wife, our neighbors, all the people at the community pool and local dive bar we hang out at.
Just do stuff. Don't look for meaning in things. It's a glaring red flag that he finds the idea of working 15 hour surgical shifts appealing and wants someone else to tell him what to do and give his life structure. That isn't meaning. That's just outsourcing your decision-making. You're going to die, sooner than you'd like, and everyone who ever gave a shit you once existed will die as well. I spend so much of my time wiping down surfaces, lifting weights, sweeping and vacuuming floors, for what? I know damn well it will all go to shit and rot into dust within days, if not hours, of my death. To paraphrase Beric Dondarrion, entropy is the enemy, and the enemy always wins. But still we fight, because what the fuck else are we supposed to do? You either kill yourself, you fill your time with something, anything, or you sit around writing think pieces about how much you despair over not knowing what to do with your time.
A good place to start is don't hijack the right click action on your blog.
I probably sound like an asshole, but I do empathize. I've felt this way a lot. Then I get over it and get back to work. Then I despair again. Then I get over it and get back to work. Hopefully this guy at least goes through similar cycles and doesn't just spend his entire life directionless and depressed. It's okay to slow down and realize how pointless this all is every now and again. Just don't let it consume you, and eventually get over it and get back to work. Not your job, but your life. Live it, no matter how stupid and pointless it is.
Just do stuff. Don't look for meaning in things. It's a glaring red flag that he finds the idea of working 15 hour surgical shifts appealing and wants someone else to tell him what to do and give his life structure. That isn't meaning. That's just outsourcing your decision-making. You're going to die, sooner than you'd like, and everyone who ever gave a shit you once existed will die as well. I spend so much of my time wiping down surfaces, lifting weights, sweeping and vacuuming floors, for what? I know damn well it will all go to shit and rot into dust within days, if not hours, of my death. To paraphrase Beric Dondarrion, entropy is the enemy, and the enemy always wins. But still we fight, because what the fuck else are we supposed to do? You either kill yourself, you fill your time with something, anything, or you sit around writing think pieces about how much you despair over not knowing what to do with your time.
A good place to start is don't hijack the right click action on your blog.
I probably sound like an asshole, but I do empathize. I've felt this way a lot. Then I get over it and get back to work. Then I despair again. Then I get over it and get back to work. Hopefully this guy at least goes through similar cycles and doesn't just spend his entire life directionless and depressed. It's okay to slow down and realize how pointless this all is every now and again. Just don't let it consume you, and eventually get over it and get back to work. Not your job, but your life. Live it, no matter how stupid and pointless it is.
Funny thing, to me, is most of the problems described in the article were problems I had with unemployment.
Working from home solved my problems.
I do not want, necessarily, to be friends with my work mates. I have an other life, and there my friends are.
The person writing that article needs to go back to the office. Not me
Working from home solved my problems.
I do not want, necessarily, to be friends with my work mates. I have an other life, and there my friends are.
The person writing that article needs to go back to the office. Not me
Exactly. Just find friends and activities to do.
It's like they are not getting what it's being discussed here: no more commuting, more productivity and more time.
It's like they are not getting what it's being discussed here: no more commuting, more productivity and more time.
just a couple of things about making assumptions:
* The author of the post is a woman
* The author mentions her partners job towards the end of the post so we know she is not single and lonely
I don't see an inherent contradiction, it's entirely possible to feels lonely even when not single. She also mentioned that her partner is a surgeon that wake at 4am to end his work day at 7pm.
This Hidden Brain episode about working from home contains interesting research findings. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/hidden-brain/id1028908...
I can relate to most of these. As an extrovert living in a different state than I grew up, I really miss just being around people. However, for now, this just works really well with having a toddler and a wife that has an unpredictable schedule.
My situation is fully remote, however my home is my "duty station." I am required to work at my physical home. If I were in a position to nitpick my situation, I would really like to just be able to go to a public space to work such as a coffee shop, campsite, shared space, etc. sometime - just to interact with humans.
My situation is fully remote, however my home is my "duty station." I am required to work at my physical home. If I were in a position to nitpick my situation, I would really like to just be able to go to a public space to work such as a coffee shop, campsite, shared space, etc. sometime - just to interact with humans.
Remote works best for people who already have their lives stuffed with meaning and structure and don't need any help from the office on those fronts.
OP might have resonated with me a decade ago, but now I have a wife and kids. I don't need office socialization to give my life meaning. I have my eight hours of work to do and then I have my life to get back to. I definitely don't need to lose two hours a day commuting.
There were days in my twenties where I had no idea what to do with the day, and on many of those days I ended up doing nothing. I haven't had a day like that for the greater part of a decade.
OP might have resonated with me a decade ago, but now I have a wife and kids. I don't need office socialization to give my life meaning. I have my eight hours of work to do and then I have my life to get back to. I definitely don't need to lose two hours a day commuting.
There were days in my twenties where I had no idea what to do with the day, and on many of those days I ended up doing nothing. I haven't had a day like that for the greater part of a decade.
I agree with this. I think there would have been a much higher chance of failure if I was remote a decade ago.
I look back and I don’t even know how commuting fit into my schedule. In between work obligations, wife, 3 kids (one in college), dogs, home maintenance, and musical aspirations, I have zero problems with getting my work done and getting back to my life.
If you know what you’re doing, you can get all of your obligations done and then carry on with whatever. It normally doesn’t take me a full 40.
I look back and I don’t even know how commuting fit into my schedule. In between work obligations, wife, 3 kids (one in college), dogs, home maintenance, and musical aspirations, I have zero problems with getting my work done and getting back to my life.
If you know what you’re doing, you can get all of your obligations done and then carry on with whatever. It normally doesn’t take me a full 40.
I have pretty good relationship with my boss. Some weeks I work 20-30 actual hours. Others, I will get on in the evening to fix things if we are having issues. My salary is decent but I would love to continue building my career, however, whenever I interview its so hard to gauge the actual work load. Devs often say "we work 40 hours a week"...
As someone with teenagers, they also need less and less supervision over time. I wouldn’t be overly confident given the data on social relationships and age.
I have lots of ideas for how to use spare time. I hope when I get it that I'm better at utilizing it than I was in my twenties.
I think the poor ability to use spare time is a feature, not a bug, when you are young.
I agree with this, and I’m not sure exactly why. Maybe because life doesn’t have to be about optimization, but we make it that way as we get older, and in a way, we lose mental freedom.
Also when you are young you don't have enough experience to decide what you like and don't. So focus would be a premature optimization.
I dislike remote work and have a full social life.
What you think would be a good adjective to describe this opinion you just shared, that people who prefer in person work don't have their lives stuffed with meaning and structure?
What you think would be a good adjective to describe this opinion you just shared, that people who prefer in person work don't have their lives stuffed with meaning and structure?
I didn't say that. Hopefully it's not necessary for me to go through a lecture on logic and standard English to explain why.
"Pregnancy works best for people with uteruses" doesn't mean that pregnancy works fantastically for every person with a uterus.
Unfortunately, on the internet, someone is always ready to take offense at a generalization, even if the generalization implies nothing worth taking offense about.
"Pregnancy works best for people with uteruses" doesn't mean that pregnancy works fantastically for every person with a uterus.
Unfortunately, on the internet, someone is always ready to take offense at a generalization, even if the generalization implies nothing worth taking offense about.
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Working remote is for adults with established social structures, skill sets, and maturity. It’s not the ideal environment to start your career.
What’s interesting is that successful fully-remote companies are full of emotionally mature and established people. This is a moat in itself.
What’s interesting is that successful fully-remote companies are full of emotionally mature and established people. This is a moat in itself.
Agreed, a lot more effort needs to be put into supporting people just starting out in companies that are remote. Too often seen it as a complete after thought.
I’ve been remote for most of the last 10 years but nearly all of my first 3-4 years was onsite in public service/government positions. I was lucky enough to be in an environment where giving time to younger staff was the norm and expected. I haven’t seen this level of support again since going to private industry sadly.
I’ve been remote for most of the last 10 years but nearly all of my first 3-4 years was onsite in public service/government positions. I was lucky enough to be in an environment where giving time to younger staff was the norm and expected. I haven’t seen this level of support again since going to private industry sadly.
When you put it like that it sounds like you're saying that people who prefer to work in an office don't have established social structures, skill sets, nor maturity. Is that the point you are making?
No, I’m saying to work successfully remotely, you usually need those attributes. That’s not to say you can’t have those attributes and prefer working in an office. I’m speaking about characteristics of people at successful fully-remote orgs who feel fulfilled in their careers. They aren’t getting meaningful socialization from work so they need it on their own terms.
"I can’t move out bc I have nothing determining my location"
But there's more to life than work! I wanted to live an easy bike ride from the train near a good school with a few acres to rewild under 100k. And now I do! Couldn't before remote, though.
But there's more to life than work! I wanted to live an easy bike ride from the train near a good school with a few acres to rewild under 100k. And now I do! Couldn't before remote, though.
I applaud the author on being honest with herself about the downsides of WFH. I've worked from home a lot over the past 10 years. There's definite benefits and it helped me sometimes knock some shit out. In my experience, doing it day in day out is so difficult that very few people can do it well. I get why people want it, but like others pointed out here, it causes depression. There's no real boundaries, it's ground hogs day and self motivation starts tough and gets tougher. Its similar to the negative feedback cycle of feeling like shit and not wanting to get out of bed, so you stay in bed and feel even more like shit tomorrow.
I partially agree with some points, personally I see the social part only solvable with two separate life, one in person, local, another remote. The issue here is that locally we often have not much matching people: if we work together probably we share some interests, ideas, ... if we simply live nearby we might be TOTALLY different witch might be very good for certain activities but not for others.
Long story short: IMO, so far, WFH is mostly chosen by skilled people and since they are a minority it's hard to find matches outside restricted areas like universities and some companies HQs... That's NOT a WFH issue, but a social one. That's can only be solved after a significant amount of time.
That's means: now many try to relocate to nice places for climate, nature, leisure, ... and so far it's a virgin territory. After a decade or more, like we have "good" and "poor/bad" neighborhoods in cities now we will find "WFH places" where people match enough to satisfy the physical proximity need. The issue is that such process is long and hard, but I see no other evolutions so far...
Long story short: IMO, so far, WFH is mostly chosen by skilled people and since they are a minority it's hard to find matches outside restricted areas like universities and some companies HQs... That's NOT a WFH issue, but a social one. That's can only be solved after a significant amount of time.
That's means: now many try to relocate to nice places for climate, nature, leisure, ... and so far it's a virgin territory. After a decade or more, like we have "good" and "poor/bad" neighborhoods in cities now we will find "WFH places" where people match enough to satisfy the physical proximity need. The issue is that such process is long and hard, but I see no other evolutions so far...
>When you have no interesting hobbies, you’re spending a lot of your time dabbling. You don’t have the discipline to force yourself to stick with something you’re not good at and you don’t see any benefit from
I think it’s time to find some new hobbies. Find something that does inspire you. You know what they say about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I think it’s time to find some new hobbies. Find something that does inspire you. You know what they say about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Agreed.
We are born good at crying and sucking nipples. Everything else we learn.
You have to stick at something through the awkward ‘not very good’ stage too.
We are born good at crying and sucking nipples. Everything else we learn.
You have to stick at something through the awkward ‘not very good’ stage too.
Like anything we've likely swung too far in one direction with the remote thing. I go into the office and travel quite a bit for work, I spend roughly every other week with my team (~10 people) and am having the time of my life. After doing the remote thing for a long time, I don't see myself doing that again for a long long time, if ever.
When I was working remotely, I found working in a coworking space did wonders for my mental health. I had to try a few to find one with the right vibe/culture, but having people around that are working on different things, but that are also up for a chat, fixed a lot of the problems mentioned in this article for me.
Remote work has a ton of advantages because you:
1. Get to spend more time with your spouse and pets. 2. Can cook your own meals instead buying outside junk. 3. Spend 1 hour working out or gardening instead of sitting in traffic.
But of course, if you live alone in a tiny shoebox apartment then remote work is the last thing you want.
1. Get to spend more time with your spouse and pets. 2. Can cook your own meals instead buying outside junk. 3. Spend 1 hour working out or gardening instead of sitting in traffic.
But of course, if you live alone in a tiny shoebox apartment then remote work is the last thing you want.
I've been working remotely for 5 years. This post is making me realize things I didn't before about how my life has changed since working remotely, i hadn't thought about some of the stuff going on as about working remotely, but I think it is.
The author mentioned that they have lots of time but cannot commit to new hobbies.
This does not seem like a problem due to remote work. Presumably, working in office still permits people with time to pursue hobbies.
Or are the number of hours vastly different working remote versus office ?
This does not seem like a problem due to remote work. Presumably, working in office still permits people with time to pursue hobbies.
Or are the number of hours vastly different working remote versus office ?
As a long time remote worker I can emphasize with some of the points in the article. However, if you think willpower is a limited resource or that keeping a daily schedule requires a lot of mental energy then maybe working remotely or without an imposed schedule and supervision just isn't for you.
Discipline is certainly important but it's important for everything. As more of the people I work with moved to remote work the ones who have struggled tend to be the younger ones without much actual work experience. A lack of discipline combined with unrealistic expectations seems to play a large role in whether someone is dissatisfied with remote work.
Discipline is certainly important but it's important for everything. As more of the people I work with moved to remote work the ones who have struggled tend to be the younger ones without much actual work experience. A lack of discipline combined with unrealistic expectations seems to play a large role in whether someone is dissatisfied with remote work.
> It’s extremely hard to be friends with your co-workers. You have to go out of your way to reach out and be available. Friendships don’t happen “organically” like they do in the office.
I'm working in an Italian co-working space and can relate. I'm the only foreigner here. I would like to be friends with them and practice my Italian but my workload and schedule doesn't allow me to be always available. I'm not used to reaching out to people. Usually I work and discuss with my colleagues and relationship just happens. Would like to know a way to improve this. I hate small talks though.
I'm working in an Italian co-working space and can relate. I'm the only foreigner here. I would like to be friends with them and practice my Italian but my workload and schedule doesn't allow me to be always available. I'm not used to reaching out to people. Usually I work and discuss with my colleagues and relationship just happens. Would like to know a way to improve this. I hate small talks though.
I've worked at places where I made lifelong friends; working in the office was an absolute blast. Work was probably more fun than it should have been.
I've also worked at places with absolutely forgettable coworkers; working in the office was a drag.
I'm remote now and love most of it. I miss the fun office of the first paragraph, and would love to find something like that again, but I know its unlikely -- filling an office with people that just click with each other is a rare thing.
Short of that scenario I don't think anything could entice me back to the office.
I've also worked at places with absolutely forgettable coworkers; working in the office was a drag.
I'm remote now and love most of it. I miss the fun office of the first paragraph, and would love to find something like that again, but I know its unlikely -- filling an office with people that just click with each other is a rare thing.
Short of that scenario I don't think anything could entice me back to the office.
How's office work not feeling like the same every day? I think it's worse, cause you see the same people, same expressionless faces (mine included) every day, unless you go out occasionally with friends.
And it definitely doesn't feel like retirement...You still work every day, even more because people expect you to be around at any moment. This is bad but easily fixable with just ignoring messages at night. In office, if you're there people could just approach you even when you're leaving.
And it definitely doesn't feel like retirement...You still work every day, even more because people expect you to be around at any moment. This is bad but easily fixable with just ignoring messages at night. In office, if you're there people could just approach you even when you're leaving.
WFH works for some people, but not all people. I'm one of the people it works for, and I've been doing it since 2015.
For me it's great because:
- No more alarm clock
- No more noisy office
- No more beng pulled aside for every little thing
- No more people dropping in
- No more unhealthy lunches at the food trucks or some restaurant.
- I can just pop out quickly to get some task done.
- Tons more free time since I don't commute
- My choice of location. I lived and worked out of a farm for years. At the end of the work day I'd move the irrigation lines and then kick back on the porch with a beer and watch the sun set over the fields. My commute time was spent on farm chores instead.
But it does require some new habits:
- Have a set start and stop time and stick to it religiously. Outside of those hours, do no work related activities.
- Develop good cooking and food habits. Newer gadgets like instant pots, air fryers and sous vide cookers make this MUCH easier.
- Make sure you get at least 10 minutes of some kind of exercise per day. Better yet 20.
- Take breaks and go for walks outside.
- Have a rotation of places to work from.
And there are some people who just don't work well in this kind of environment:
- Maybe they need a communal feel, even if they're not actually talking to people.
- Maybe they need face-to-face contact with at least some regularity.
- Maybe they need to hang out with at least some regular people during the workday.
- Maybe they need a clear, physical distance separation between work and home.
- Maybe they need a regimen where the actions are built-in to the system rather than self-imposed (having to go to an office that has a set start and end time, office rules, etc)
And that's fine. Each to their own. At my workplace, there's an office that people can go to if they want, or work from home. Their choice. And it's cheaper for the company since the office doesn't need to have a spot for every person.
For me it's great because:
- No more alarm clock
- No more noisy office
- No more beng pulled aside for every little thing
- No more people dropping in
- No more unhealthy lunches at the food trucks or some restaurant.
- I can just pop out quickly to get some task done.
- Tons more free time since I don't commute
- My choice of location. I lived and worked out of a farm for years. At the end of the work day I'd move the irrigation lines and then kick back on the porch with a beer and watch the sun set over the fields. My commute time was spent on farm chores instead.
But it does require some new habits:
- Have a set start and stop time and stick to it religiously. Outside of those hours, do no work related activities.
- Develop good cooking and food habits. Newer gadgets like instant pots, air fryers and sous vide cookers make this MUCH easier.
- Make sure you get at least 10 minutes of some kind of exercise per day. Better yet 20.
- Take breaks and go for walks outside.
- Have a rotation of places to work from.
And there are some people who just don't work well in this kind of environment:
- Maybe they need a communal feel, even if they're not actually talking to people.
- Maybe they need face-to-face contact with at least some regularity.
- Maybe they need to hang out with at least some regular people during the workday.
- Maybe they need a clear, physical distance separation between work and home.
- Maybe they need a regimen where the actions are built-in to the system rather than self-imposed (having to go to an office that has a set start and end time, office rules, etc)
And that's fine. Each to their own. At my workplace, there's an office that people can go to if they want, or work from home. Their choice. And it's cheaper for the company since the office doesn't need to have a spot for every person.
> I can’t move out bc I have nothing determining my location
You can very likely walk near your location. If you can, you can phone a colleague. Combine the two. Sitting for 8 hours behind a computer screen is unhealthy, no matter if its remote or not. Also, the walk allows for inspiration (diffused mode) and will make you more productive afterwards when you are in focused mode. My employer even gives me one hour paid sports a week cause they know they earn it back. Give it a whirl.
You can very likely walk near your location. If you can, you can phone a colleague. Combine the two. Sitting for 8 hours behind a computer screen is unhealthy, no matter if its remote or not. Also, the walk allows for inspiration (diffused mode) and will make you more productive afterwards when you are in focused mode. My employer even gives me one hour paid sports a week cause they know they earn it back. Give it a whirl.
If every day is the same and find it hard to make friends, a job is not the answer.
A job is just putting make up on the problem but the problem itself will remain intact.
A job is just putting make up on the problem but the problem itself will remain intact.
Please don’t try to take away something lots of people enjoy by generalizing your experience. Just because your life is lacking something doesn’t mean everyone working remote has the same issue, and this is the kind of shit commercial real estate people will try to use to say “See! We told you you need an office !”
sounds like depression
Absolutely. WFH makes me extremely depressed, and it resolves immediately when I return to an office. For me a personal coworking space was enough to stave it off, but an actual office would be much preferred.
I also got depressed by working from home.
Recently I joined a rowing club and joined a coworking space.
Working remotely is nice. Working out of your living room is intense.
Getting a watch that will tell me when I've been sitting still for too long is nice, too.
Recently I joined a rowing club and joined a coworking space.
Working remotely is nice. Working out of your living room is intense.
Getting a watch that will tell me when I've been sitting still for too long is nice, too.
as someone who has no problem with WFH, working from home for (and with) someone you don't ever encounter in real life can easily get people depressed.
most people seek for meaningful relationships and purpose in life, not just paychecks.
it's not people's fault if that particular way of working can lead to depression.
most people seek for meaningful relationships and purpose in life, not just paychecks.
it's not people's fault if that particular way of working can lead to depression.
There are exceptions and I see how it can act as a sort of safety net group of acquaintances on which you can build... but for most people, work has got to be the worst place to find meaningful relationships and purpose, hasn't it? You can be made redundant in a moment and lose contact, there's money, an explicit hierarchy, and competition making everything awkward, and the purpose is usually questionable (hence the money)
> but for most people, work has got to be the worst place to find meaningful relationships and purpose, hasn't it?
why?
it's not the best or the worst, it's one of the many places people spend time.
it also depends a lot on people's age, when I was young I made friends with people I worked with of my same age and at first experiences like me, we are still friends.
Now I mostly am there to do my job, meetings and be the "uncle" of younger co-workers.
is there a particular reason why college or the gym should be considered a better place to form bonds, except for people expectations?
> You can be made redundant in a moment and lose contact,
or you could move and lose contact...
or you could keep in touch because you became friends.
There's no general rule.
> there's money, an explicit hierarchy, and competition
I believe this mostly boils down to cultural differences, where I am from co-workers rarely compete fiercely and hierarchies are mostly not very deep, work is not organized like the military here.
It is probably less efficient, but it makes the work more stable, so people work at the same company for much longer on average and they do actually consider co-workers friends or at least people you have to interact with everyday, so why not make the best out of it.
why?
it's not the best or the worst, it's one of the many places people spend time.
it also depends a lot on people's age, when I was young I made friends with people I worked with of my same age and at first experiences like me, we are still friends.
Now I mostly am there to do my job, meetings and be the "uncle" of younger co-workers.
is there a particular reason why college or the gym should be considered a better place to form bonds, except for people expectations?
> You can be made redundant in a moment and lose contact,
or you could move and lose contact...
or you could keep in touch because you became friends.
There's no general rule.
> there's money, an explicit hierarchy, and competition
I believe this mostly boils down to cultural differences, where I am from co-workers rarely compete fiercely and hierarchies are mostly not very deep, work is not organized like the military here.
It is probably less efficient, but it makes the work more stable, so people work at the same company for much longer on average and they do actually consider co-workers friends or at least people you have to interact with everyday, so why not make the best out of it.
Yes, but you spend so much time at work it's natural to want meaningful relationships and purpose.
The sad reality is I'm priced out of housing near the office, even an hour away. I moved to a cheaper cost of living which had a 20% increase in housing this year, so I will have to move again.
Remote works great for me, it has for many years, no complaints.
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Great post. It's nice to see something other than the "remote work is the perfect future that we've all dreamed about" religion.
Discipline & lack of exercise can be remedied by getting a membership at the health club and doing low till natural gardening.
Not mentioned but I see as a increasingly large problem is mentoring new hires and juniors and seeing them improve and get promoted. It's absolutely just not the same anymore and I believe that it will bite many industries hard.
I'm not saying that it's impossible to mentor people online, but here's the issue as I see it...When I physically worked with people, I'd them having trouble, I could see their body language, notice they were coming into to work later, looking unenthused. I'd develop their social skills. The bandwidth was way, way higher. Problems were ok because though I'd go over to their desk, sit with them and teach them things, teach them to communicate, develop their social skills, go get coffee and talk about their problems, they'd ask questions and we might go to lunch together and talk a bit more about things and work through. We'd form a bond. What I'd get out of this bond is more capable people around me at, what felt like, a lower price than with remote work.
Now, mentoring for most people is a way bigger sacrifice. I mean, I could be out riding my mountain bike rather than mentoring newbies or sit on the phone listening to their issues.
I'm also simulating a social scene based on previous work social life. I know what the important of conversing with my peers is like. I remember how to do it. I perpetuate it with online work. Not everyone can do this.
When I worked in an office there was a clear distinction between my two lives, my work life and my free time. I was happy to give my work life and time to others. I went out of my way to do it. Now all my time seems more precious and I don't want to give too much of my free time away. This is great in the short term but it's bad in the long term, I can see it affecting our team negatively already. There is a growing gap between the less experienced people and the people who can learn and grow on their own, autonomously. It's like some people have a level of knowledge that makes them immutable to the isolation of remote work, for them remote work is 100% ok. Others don't have the skills yet to cope. The people who don't have the ability to perform and work autonomously aren't schooled, they're scorned, they're annoying, they're stopping people from accessing their endless free time gained from being good at what they do.
There's a raft of other issues that go with this too, timezone barriers, the fact it's super easy to avoid people so they can hide issues and their feelings with less effort. I could go on. Anyway, I believe this will become more of a problem as more experienced people retire and stop schooling the younger crowd.
Time will tell, it will be interesting to see how all of this pans out. I'm 100% loving remote work , I'm not trying to say there is an inherit issue with it, just going to have to solve this problem, I can only imagine it getting worse over time if younger people stop physically attending college. Good bye another mechanism for developing social skills...
I'm not saying that it's impossible to mentor people online, but here's the issue as I see it...When I physically worked with people, I'd them having trouble, I could see their body language, notice they were coming into to work later, looking unenthused. I'd develop their social skills. The bandwidth was way, way higher. Problems were ok because though I'd go over to their desk, sit with them and teach them things, teach them to communicate, develop their social skills, go get coffee and talk about their problems, they'd ask questions and we might go to lunch together and talk a bit more about things and work through. We'd form a bond. What I'd get out of this bond is more capable people around me at, what felt like, a lower price than with remote work.
Now, mentoring for most people is a way bigger sacrifice. I mean, I could be out riding my mountain bike rather than mentoring newbies or sit on the phone listening to their issues.
I'm also simulating a social scene based on previous work social life. I know what the important of conversing with my peers is like. I remember how to do it. I perpetuate it with online work. Not everyone can do this.
When I worked in an office there was a clear distinction between my two lives, my work life and my free time. I was happy to give my work life and time to others. I went out of my way to do it. Now all my time seems more precious and I don't want to give too much of my free time away. This is great in the short term but it's bad in the long term, I can see it affecting our team negatively already. There is a growing gap between the less experienced people and the people who can learn and grow on their own, autonomously. It's like some people have a level of knowledge that makes them immutable to the isolation of remote work, for them remote work is 100% ok. Others don't have the skills yet to cope. The people who don't have the ability to perform and work autonomously aren't schooled, they're scorned, they're annoying, they're stopping people from accessing their endless free time gained from being good at what they do.
There's a raft of other issues that go with this too, timezone barriers, the fact it's super easy to avoid people so they can hide issues and their feelings with less effort. I could go on. Anyway, I believe this will become more of a problem as more experienced people retire and stop schooling the younger crowd.
Time will tell, it will be interesting to see how all of this pans out. I'm 100% loving remote work , I'm not trying to say there is an inherit issue with it, just going to have to solve this problem, I can only imagine it getting worse over time if younger people stop physically attending college. Good bye another mechanism for developing social skills...
It's be curious about the breakdown between people with partners they live with, or children, and the WFH preference.
All of these are true, but I will never go back into the office again.
Was this written by expensive midtown office real estate
Sounds like something an angsty teen would post. Get disciplined wrt to diet and exercise and find some worthwhile hobbies/pursuits.
> I can’t move out bc I have nothing determining my location
Not sure I understand this one... any insight?
> I can’t move out bc I have nothing determining my location
Not sure I understand this one... any insight?
OP needs an external factor to force them to decide on a location and presumably unhappy with their current choice.
Personally after being allowed to be fully remote I found this to be a weird experience. I wasn't totally sure where to live. I no longer needed to be in the bay area, I could go back "home". Idk what I wanted to do, got pressure from family about what I "should" do. I didn't really know what I wanted in a place to live. And I think for most people for most of their lives no one had this freedom to just live anywhere. There isn't a lot of good advice.
BrissyCoder(1)
Some people just aren't up to working remotely permanently. Those who need to be social with colleagues and this author says that when they mention they want colleagues to be friends. Not me. I want colleagues to be just that. I don't need to tell them what I did at the weekend as it's my business and I don't care what they did.
Willpower is a learned skill that you can fine-tune so you are focused on your work. You need to treat your work as the single most important think in your life during the work hours. Don't surf the web from your work computer. Don't allow yourself to deviate from the regular daily routine.
Willpower is a learned skill that you can fine-tune so you are focused on your work. You need to treat your work as the single most important think in your life during the work hours. Don't surf the web from your work computer. Don't allow yourself to deviate from the regular daily routine.
This seems strange to me. hey, I'm going to spent 40hrs a week with others, let's make sure I don't give a shit about them.....
Vs, wow, I'm going to hang out with friends 40hrs a week. Sounds fun!
I'd pick the 2nd always. 3 of my best friends in the world are ex-coworkers and 1 more was a friend before but we started a company together at one point so we're we were co-workers. Another close friend I got managed to convince to come to the company I was at. We all had great times together.
It's one of the things that didn't happen at my last job and is certainly not happening at my current job with hybrid mostly WFH. Not making friends which basically makes work a chore instead of a party.
Vs, wow, I'm going to hang out with friends 40hrs a week. Sounds fun!
I'd pick the 2nd always. 3 of my best friends in the world are ex-coworkers and 1 more was a friend before but we started a company together at one point so we're we were co-workers. Another close friend I got managed to convince to come to the company I was at. We all had great times together.
It's one of the things that didn't happen at my last job and is certainly not happening at my current job with hybrid mostly WFH. Not making friends which basically makes work a chore instead of a party.
But I'm not going to spend 40 hours a week with you. I'm working for an employer and might intersect with you a few times a day. I'm there to do work not to do the social scene.
Okay but I'd argue your take on this is an outlier, and not how people commonly view a workspace. Especially when people spend so much time in their jobs. It does seem to me you've left a lot of potential meaningful relationships on the table with your approach, but that's your choice.
+1 on the coworker thing, with traditional office jobs you’re friends with those guys and you’re close and then you or they change jobs and you never hear from them again. All along it was just being in close proximity and seeing each other every day that kept you together. That’s not friendship.
This ignores the large number of people who do find meaningful and Lasting friendships through their workplace, let alone spouses.
The number one place where Americans met their married partners was at work
It out ranks mutual friends, hobbies, and College.
The number one place where Americans met their married partners was at work
It out ranks mutual friends, hobbies, and College.
And the idea that you can’t make friends working remote dismisses the idea that you can actually make friends through shared interests in a remote environment instead of just proximity and mutual suffering.
Who said anything about suffering? I enjoy spending time with friends at work. Whether that is working together on a project, chatting, or having a beer on company time.
You do, but that’s not true of everyone’s experience, which is why giving people choice is the right way to go.
This seems overly dismissive of what friendship is or can be. Did you move away from your high school area? If so how many of your high school friends do you still keep in touch with? Are the people you don't people who were never your fiends? Or were they friends for a moment in time? Exes? Were you never friends if you don't keep in touch? College friends? Seriously there are many people in my life that were friends, but whom I have minimal or no contact with at all anymore. That doesn't mean they weren't friends. It might mean we aren't anymore but a relationship doesn't have to be permanent to be a relationship.
Most people don't keep up contact with with most people they even meet socially if they move away. The ones you do are special, it's silly to discount everyone who you wouldn't keep in touch with minus proximity.
Everyone's different and you do you, but from a social person's perspective the interactions in the moment have value and can bring joy whether or not I'm going to be friends with that person in 20 years.
Everyone's different and you do you, but from a social person's perspective the interactions in the moment have value and can bring joy whether or not I'm going to be friends with that person in 20 years.
Like you said, most of the time, you don’t get actual friendships with co-workers. But, being in close proximity, and sharing experience makes it more probable to foster friendships.
I had a lot of colleagues in my last job, and I have become friends with 2 of them. So the odds are not big. But it’s bigger than my current remote only job.
I had a lot of colleagues in my last job, and I have become friends with 2 of them. So the odds are not big. But it’s bigger than my current remote only job.
That and you might meet non-coworkers through your work acquaintances. A lot of it is just expanding the opportunity space of potential social connections.
I still talk to at least 2 coworkers from my previous job. Many people make friends from jobs.
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Some folks thrive in an office environment, they value the things it provides - a schedule, a time, a reason to get up and out, socialising with others, being out in the world. It comes at a cost of time and a bit of freedom; you don't really get to choose the hours or where this happens, neither the folks you interact with.
Others prefer working remotely, they cherish being able to set their own schedule and work, and being able to manage their level of interactions with others. Remote work does not have to be work from home either, and the freedom this gives can be quite liberating.
There is also a somewhat of divide between introverts and extroverts between which they prefer, but of course - there are many in either camp leaning the other way too.
You just have to find what works for you - and that means trying both, or a mix, and seeing which one suits you best.
Where it gets rather frustrating for folks is when they are not given a choice - some companies; ergo leaders, can't wait to have everyone back in an office even after 2 or so years of being (mostly? somewhat?) productive during the pandemic; and this is where frictions arise. Other companies are entirely remote, and for those who thrive in an office environment, they will struggle greatly.
I'd love to see managers / leaders, and even employees recognise that individuals have preferences, and being accommodating of it to get the best out of their people, rather than imposing how they find they work best. How, or what this would entail, I'd have to give more thought - but I believe there are plenty of individuals with far more experience and knowledge than me around this topic who have been successful at managing hybrid (office + remote) teams, and accomodating individuals that lean either way.