Long Covid, Cognitive Impairment, and the Stalled Decline in Disability Rates(federalreserve.gov)
federalreserve.gov
Long Covid, Cognitive Impairment, and the Stalled Decline in Disability Rates
https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/long-covid-cognitive-impairment-and-the-stalled-decline-in-disability-rates-20220805.htm
187 comments
These four observations sound like a Rorschach test.
If one thinks “long COVID” is imaginary, one can read these facts as confirmation of placebo effects or mass sociogenic illness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness
Or, if one thinks it’s plausible, each can be read the other way, for instance:
>> long-term COVID symptoms are much more prevalent among women, adults under 65, Hispanics and Latinos, and non–college graduates than among other demographic groups
OK, so groups least likely to choose to isolate, or be able to isolate (because they have to work).
>> Second, COVID "long haulers" cite specific physical and cognitive impairments commonly associated with the condition in media and medical reporting.
Put another way, reporting and media sound like what people cite.
>> Third, the share of working-age adults reporting serious difficulty remembering, concentrating, or making decisions has risen steadily since the start of the pandemic.
Condition attributed to a disease known to be experienced by a steadily increasing population share, steadily increases share reporting — confirmed!
>> Fourth, growing shares of women and of non–college graduates report simultaneously (i) being out of the labor force due to disability and (ii) experiencing these cognitive difficulties.
So these go together, and see #1 — everything is as expected.
Remarkable how simultaneously contradictory all four interpretations can be, almost as if crafted to be so.
If one thinks “long COVID” is imaginary, one can read these facts as confirmation of placebo effects or mass sociogenic illness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness
Or, if one thinks it’s plausible, each can be read the other way, for instance:
>> long-term COVID symptoms are much more prevalent among women, adults under 65, Hispanics and Latinos, and non–college graduates than among other demographic groups
OK, so groups least likely to choose to isolate, or be able to isolate (because they have to work).
>> Second, COVID "long haulers" cite specific physical and cognitive impairments commonly associated with the condition in media and medical reporting.
Put another way, reporting and media sound like what people cite.
>> Third, the share of working-age adults reporting serious difficulty remembering, concentrating, or making decisions has risen steadily since the start of the pandemic.
Condition attributed to a disease known to be experienced by a steadily increasing population share, steadily increases share reporting — confirmed!
>> Fourth, growing shares of women and of non–college graduates report simultaneously (i) being out of the labor force due to disability and (ii) experiencing these cognitive difficulties.
So these go together, and see #1 — everything is as expected.
Remarkable how simultaneously contradictory all four interpretations can be, almost as if crafted to be so.
To emphasize, though, and the point I was trying to make is that it's possible (and I think likely) that both of these statements are true:
1. Long COVID is a real disease that can cause debilitating symptoms.
2. A significant number of people who claim to suffer from Long COVID actually suffer from something else.
The only thing that puts me more in the "I think #2 is a lot more prevalent than people think" camp is the astronomical amount of press that "Long COVID" has received, coupled with the fact that the majority of people in the US have been exposed to COVID, so it's easy to attribute any general feeling of being unwell (e.g. fatigue, brain fog, etc.) to the fact that you probably had COVID in the not-too-distant past.
1. Long COVID is a real disease that can cause debilitating symptoms.
2. A significant number of people who claim to suffer from Long COVID actually suffer from something else.
The only thing that puts me more in the "I think #2 is a lot more prevalent than people think" camp is the astronomical amount of press that "Long COVID" has received, coupled with the fact that the majority of people in the US have been exposed to COVID, so it's easy to attribute any general feeling of being unwell (e.g. fatigue, brain fog, etc.) to the fact that you probably had COVID in the not-too-distant past.
I would be in camp #2 as well, was it not that we are discovering tests showing evidence of Long COVID. See for example this blog from a long hauler: https://mylongcoviddiaries.medium.com/i-finally-have-a-diagn...
There seems to be evidence that tiny blood clots are causing the wide variety of symptoms. https://worldfreedomalliance.org/au/news/could-tiny-blood-cl...
There seems to be evidence that tiny blood clots are causing the wide variety of symptoms. https://worldfreedomalliance.org/au/news/could-tiny-blood-cl...
I don't disagree with you.
Even so: it's possible for most of it to be "not real" or "something else"-- but still carry a terrifically high disease burden.
Even so: it's possible for most of it to be "not real" or "something else"-- but still carry a terrifically high disease burden.
COVID is definitely not the only case where acute form might shift into a chronic one. For a recent overview see, e.g., Unexplained post-acute infection syndromes[0].
> As of now, the true extent of PAISs remains uncertain, as there is a significant risk that a lot of cases, especially under sporadic circumstances, remain unrecognized.
> The research that is available concentrates on PAISs in the context of either well-monitored acute infectious diseases, or as a follow-up of outbreaks and epidemics.
[0] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01810-6
> As of now, the true extent of PAISs remains uncertain, as there is a significant risk that a lot of cases, especially under sporadic circumstances, remain unrecognized.
> The research that is available concentrates on PAISs in the context of either well-monitored acute infectious diseases, or as a follow-up of outbreaks and epidemics.
[0] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01810-6
> E.g. infection with Epstein Barr virus has long been implicated in a lost of long term conditions like CFS and MS.
Sorry for the complete non sequitur, but this is the first time I've seen a reference to Epstein-Barr outside of the Sopranos (Tony's sister Janice is on disability because of it). I had no idea it was linked to MS.
Sorry for the complete non sequitur, but this is the first time I've seen a reference to Epstein-Barr outside of the Sopranos (Tony's sister Janice is on disability because of it). I had no idea it was linked to MS.
That was only reported pretty recently.
Derek Lowe did a nice write up of a serious study that found 189 long Covid cases and 120 controls. PCR positive and having long term Covid symptoms was the inclusion criteria.
They then did a massive battery of tests - inflammation biomarkers, nerve damage biomarkers, lung function, congestive ability, etc.
And the conclusion? There was no difference between the groups: there are no diagnostic findings that would allow you to even say for sure that post-Covid even exists, biochemically.
https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/search-long-covid
They then did a massive battery of tests - inflammation biomarkers, nerve damage biomarkers, lung function, congestive ability, etc.
And the conclusion? There was no difference between the groups: there are no diagnostic findings that would allow you to even say for sure that post-Covid even exists, biochemically.
https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/search-long-covid
That just means there's no diagnostic test, not that the symptoms aren't real! There aren't biomarkers for chronic pain, either, which presents a serious problem for people seeking treatment.
This is the "I closed your bug report because it works on my machine" of medicine.
This is the "I closed your bug report because it works on my machine" of medicine.
The challenge is when physical symptoms aren’t backed up by measurements of actual function.
When people complain of lung or heart problems but all tests are normal (oxygen levels, cardiac efficiency, lung capacity, exercise tolerance).
When people claim cognitive decline yet all measures of cognitive ability are normal.
It would point to a strong psychological component for at least some people - which was found in the study. Symptoms were correlated with those having a history of anxiety disorders (prior to Covid).
There was also another study (I can’t find it right now) of self-reported long Covid suffers.
They ran tests and many of them had never even been infected with Covid..ever.
This isn’t to say that post-viral syndromes aren’t real. But it does suggest that self-reporting isn’t all that accurate.
When people complain of lung or heart problems but all tests are normal (oxygen levels, cardiac efficiency, lung capacity, exercise tolerance).
When people claim cognitive decline yet all measures of cognitive ability are normal.
It would point to a strong psychological component for at least some people - which was found in the study. Symptoms were correlated with those having a history of anxiety disorders (prior to Covid).
There was also another study (I can’t find it right now) of self-reported long Covid suffers.
They ran tests and many of them had never even been infected with Covid..ever.
This isn’t to say that post-viral syndromes aren’t real. But it does suggest that self-reporting isn’t all that accurate.
It raises entirely valid questions, none of which should undermine the patient's experience. Listen to the patient: they're telling us something.
To anticipate: "Objective" measures are of course useful, but only form part of any picture.
To anticipate: "Objective" measures are of course useful, but only form part of any picture.
Of course. If the patient is experiencing symptoms those should be addressed.
And this data helps to narrow down possible treatments based on solid data with regards to system dysfunction.
And this data helps to narrow down possible treatments based on solid data with regards to system dysfunction.
As a software engineer I have a wide variety of tests to my disposal. Still, there are things which I would not be able to test for. EM interference between chips in a data center. Row-hammer attacks. Clock jitter. My running processes would fail, but there is no way for me to prove a specific cause.
So we search deeper. And sometimes we find something: https://mylongcoviddiaries.medium.com/i-finally-have-a-diagn...
So we search deeper. And sometimes we find something: https://mylongcoviddiaries.medium.com/i-finally-have-a-diagn...
If you are truly interested do more research focusing on clotting/microclotting. Dr Gustavo Aguirre is a true pioneer, his protocols (and others' protocols) which are based on that truly work, I manage a long covid group with 6K people.
> I'm generally interested in a good summary of what medical research tells us about long COVID.
Has there been any good summaries?
Has there been any good summaries?
You might want to start with some of the original articles on post-viral fatigue syndrome going back to the 1980's. I suspect there's not much really new with long COVID.
https://doi.org/10.1177/014107688808100608
https://doi.org/10.1177/014107688808100608
Yes, Eric Topol wrote one up for the LA times recently
From his blog: https://erictopol.substack.com/p/some-light-on-long-covid
I kind of don't care about most of the symptoms listed in the studies he cites. Getting headaches or random fatigue in no way compares to the PEM of CFS or persistent brain fog which causes severe executive dysfunction. I find the whole discussion around long covid to be frustrating: simultaneously inflating figures on one hand while underrating the truly severe outcomes (which can happen with all viral diseases).
And I want to add that side effects of the vaccination are often treated as long COVID as well. Long COVID is a representation of symptoms, therefore this is not unusual that it is classified the same, however one might mistake these as virus related when some are not.
They are very similar, but if you have the data from both set you can clearly see the difference.
Unfortunately both long covid and vaccine side effects are underplayed.
Unfortunately both long covid and vaccine side effects are underplayed.
> They are very similar, but if you have the data from both set you can clearly see the difference.
It depends also on case by case basis, however long COVID is diagnosed in some patients with/as vaccination side effect. Even if it might be possible that these can be clearly differentiated, it's not done. It is also not that clearly defined and therefore overlaps with some other syndroms like fibromyalgia, which might be a confounding factor as well.
It depends also on case by case basis, however long COVID is diagnosed in some patients with/as vaccination side effect. Even if it might be possible that these can be clearly differentiated, it's not done. It is also not that clearly defined and therefore overlaps with some other syndroms like fibromyalgia, which might be a confounding factor as well.
Been into the topic since the earliest days of long covid, Apr 2020.
If you have issues make sure you have dealt with possible microclotting issues, it is the main thing everyone must check/treat who had covid.
As others mentioned in thread, check FLCCC's IRecover protocol and also study antifibrinogens and Gustavo Aguirre's work. He was months before anyone else from the start regarding both covid and post covid treatment.
I myself manage a hungarian long covid group with almost 6K people now, started 1.5 years ago. Curating resources, translating studies, gathering good docs and protocols.
List of treatments to have a look at: lysine (2000-2500mg, slowly increasing not to break microclots too fast), lumbrokinase/nattokinase/serrapeptase/bromelain, high dose B1 (even 2000-3000mg HCl form), in case of brain fog you might consider fluvoxamine, and of course there is the one which helped A LOT of long haulers I know but is censored...: www.ivmmeta.com Also diet/antihistamines might help for some and in case of low energy (if microclots are surely gone, if not I'd focus on it first) then high dose flush niacin. Proved many times.
It is so absurd they can still censor it and that many docs blindly following orders.
If you have issues make sure you have dealt with possible microclotting issues, it is the main thing everyone must check/treat who had covid.
As others mentioned in thread, check FLCCC's IRecover protocol and also study antifibrinogens and Gustavo Aguirre's work. He was months before anyone else from the start regarding both covid and post covid treatment.
I myself manage a hungarian long covid group with almost 6K people now, started 1.5 years ago. Curating resources, translating studies, gathering good docs and protocols.
List of treatments to have a look at: lysine (2000-2500mg, slowly increasing not to break microclots too fast), lumbrokinase/nattokinase/serrapeptase/bromelain, high dose B1 (even 2000-3000mg HCl form), in case of brain fog you might consider fluvoxamine, and of course there is the one which helped A LOT of long haulers I know but is censored...: www.ivmmeta.com Also diet/antihistamines might help for some and in case of low energy (if microclots are surely gone, if not I'd focus on it first) then high dose flush niacin. Proved many times.
It is so absurd they can still censor it and that many docs blindly following orders.
“Good health is a crown on the head of a well person that only a sick person can see.”
- Robin Sharma
- Robin Sharma
Anecdote, had covid in the end of 2020, still dont feel 100%, maybe i just grew old while sick and thats just life, but i feel like shit comparable to what i felt before it.
Work on lung exercises for fatigue.
I have had health complications that caused the same problem as long covid seemingly causes; tiny tiny clots wreaking havoc on capillaries. I think it depends on where the viral load landed and grew, but if it was in your lungs, you would maybe need to treat it as if you have chronic bronchitis.
If it was in your sinuses and mouth, messing up your senses, then I'm sorry, idk what to do. ...maybe a similar approach with anti-inflammatories, hopefully something for your nerves too.
Hope you're good atm
I have had health complications that caused the same problem as long covid seemingly causes; tiny tiny clots wreaking havoc on capillaries. I think it depends on where the viral load landed and grew, but if it was in your lungs, you would maybe need to treat it as if you have chronic bronchitis.
If it was in your sinuses and mouth, messing up your senses, then I'm sorry, idk what to do. ...maybe a similar approach with anti-inflammatories, hopefully something for your nerves too.
Hope you're good atm
Yeah, had literally 100s of lab tests, all came back ok. Exercise intolerance for at least an year. But im slowly getting back on form, gym doesnt kill me anymore. Still have some random digestion issues, slightly elevated HR and just generally feeling worse than before. But ill look into lung exercises, thank you for the tip
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How much did you self isolate? I’ve noticed that the elderly who self isolated while having it or being around partners who had it have gone through a marketed mental decline. I think physical declines are probably there as well especially as we all age it is difficult to turn back the clock in physical fitness, past 35 more so.
This is me also. I was also isolated seeing only one other human for the entirety of COVID (including now, but I'm gonna move soon so I can at least go into a physical office). I feel like my brain still works at lots of stuff, once it gets going, but I forget what I'm doing randomly and I think I used to be not _THIS_ bad at interacting with other humans :/
Isolation is associated with much higher risk of serious health conditions:
https://www.cdc.gov/aging/publications/features/lonely-older...
Humans are social animals. COVID response policy to encourage more physical isolation could have deadly implications.
https://www.cdc.gov/aging/publications/features/lonely-older...
Humans are social animals. COVID response policy to encourage more physical isolation could have deadly implications.
All this was completely obvious to anybody paying even a little bit of attention. Sadly their voices got shut out of the conversation; their proponents yelled at, called horrible names, etc.
What society did over the last two and a half years is shameful. Society encouraged and cheered on what is basically mental illness.
What society did over the last two and a half years is shameful. Society encouraged and cheered on what is basically mental illness.
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It's not just you. I know a physically fit personal trainer that has had long COVID for over 8 months now.
It's not just you. I know someone who had Long COVID for 1 month. I also know someone who works with someone who was running marathons every weekend and now they can't walk stairs because of knee pain, all because of COVID. I know someone else who had COVID and then was not doing any sport or social interaction for almost two years, barely left the house and who feels much more tired and depressed now, because of COVID. I know a child, who had COVID, then didn't have proper education for nearly two years and now is really underdeveloped, because of COVID of course.
Yeah, I'm definitely not where I was before. Dunno if it's the effects of covid, but social isolation and lack of physical exercise certainly hasn't done my overall well-being any favors either.
I'd argue that it feels precisely like that - that you became old in last months.
this is exactly me also
I've heard numerous stories like yours, except about getting the COVID vaccine.
Anecdotes are really not useful for teasing out general effects.
Anecdotes are really not useful for teasing out general effects.
That's abstractly true, but in this case we also have studies that show long COVID, including one that compared brain scans before and after COVID and could see macro brain damage. The brain is an incredibly delicate organ, it isn't surprising that a severe virus can do damage do it.
The anecdotes still don't add any useful information, because there is no reliability on their representativeness of the overall data, by the very definition of anecdote.
I don't subscribe to this scientism perspective on epistemology when it comes to an individual forming views about the world based on their own experiences. Individual heterogeneity and the level of detail you're able to observe in your own N=1 anecdote can mean that the richness of that dataset is actually superior to an N=1000 dataset in many cases. I am a data scientist and often learn more about a phenomenon by exhaustively digging into a single example than trying to find broad trends in the larger dataset. Basically - avoid methodological purism when it comes to studying phenomena.
The anecodote does not reliably tell you anything about the phenomenon. The experience could be due to an entirely different phenomenon, which you are misattributing to the phenomenon in question. Only the scientific approach can make reliable causative associations.
You have not made some epistemological breakthrough with your anti-scientific take.
You have not made some epistemological breakthrough with your anti-scientific take.
While I agree that that particular anecdote tells us nothing -- because it's void of details -- I disagree that anecdotes categorically can't tell us anything. My take isn't anti-scientific, it is against this particular brand of scientism that believes that single examples are useless. Consider that medical scientists often use case studies to better understand phenomena, because this allows for higher resolution investigation of a single example in order to shed light on phenomena, and it addresses edge cases due to individual heterogeneity that cross-sectional data can't address well. In light of this example, I would argue the anecdote vs data is a false dichotomy if you're defining anecdote to mean "example from a single person". If an anecdote is studied properly, as it is in case studies in the medical literature, it is data. It's just a different kind of data and a different mode of scientific study to lower resolution cross-sectional studies (which are also great and necessary, but have different strengths).
>>it is against this particular brand of scientism that believes that single examples are useless
Single examples are useless for discovering generalized properties of reality.
Medical case studies are only useful in conjunction with knowledge about causative associations that were discovered through statistical analyses.
Single examples are useless for discovering generalized properties of reality.
Medical case studies are only useful in conjunction with knowledge about causative associations that were discovered through statistical analyses.
Sure, you are right. I still feel like shit after covid.
Funny, I was just searching if the temperature dysregulation - randomly sweating and feeling hot or cold without a change in body temperature - might have anything to do with my covid infection two months ago (the answer seems to be: maybe, who knows!).
FYI, temperature dysregulation can be a common sign of hormonal balance issues (thyroid, etc could be a factor), so if it's causing you a lot of trouble you should see if your doctor can check the levels of key hormones. IIRC testosterone and estrogen are two key ones that can be out of whack for various reasons and will cause temperature dysregulation. The test is pretty cheap and easy to do with a regular blood draw so it shouldn't be too hard to get it done if they haven't already checked it before.
Cheers, I'll bring it up with the doc!
Luckily he's one to take it well when his patients bring up internet-sourced thoughts or suggestions :)
Luckily he's one to take it well when his patients bring up internet-sourced thoughts or suggestions :)
Thermogenesis is controlled by the autonomic nervous system (ANS), dysfunction of the ANS is called dysautonomia and it is a central component to Long Covid. There are a variety of medical interventions that are helpful for dysautonomia.
The light searching I've been doing since my last comment had indeed been leading me in that direction. I even came across a mention of this here on HN from a few months ago[1]. A sibling comment to yours also suggested a hormonal imbalance as a possible cause which can't hurt getting myself checked for.
Some anacdata: This strange temperature dysregulation feels somewhat similar to what a too high dosage of my ADHD meds does to me.
Anyway thanks for your comment. I'll be seeing a doctor about this for sure.
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31512100
Some anacdata: This strange temperature dysregulation feels somewhat similar to what a too high dosage of my ADHD meds does to me.
Anyway thanks for your comment. I'll be seeing a doctor about this for sure.
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31512100
Doctors are not great at managing dysautonomia if they even know what it is. It’s a niche area. You’ll probably have to DIY research on it and ask for the meds you want.
Yup, ADHD medicine will activate the sympathetic nervous system and too much of that will cause dysautonomia.
If you have LongCovid and ADHD it’s reasonably likely you’re also hypermobile and have a condition called hypermobile Ehlers Danlos Syndrome (hEDS). It runs in families on an autosomal dominant basis. Doctors rarely know anything about hEDS either. The normals tests done by those that do have a 90% false negative rate.
Yup, ADHD medicine will activate the sympathetic nervous system and too much of that will cause dysautonomia.
If you have LongCovid and ADHD it’s reasonably likely you’re also hypermobile and have a condition called hypermobile Ehlers Danlos Syndrome (hEDS). It runs in families on an autosomal dominant basis. Doctors rarely know anything about hEDS either. The normals tests done by those that do have a 90% false negative rate.
I was actually tested for hEDS (amongst other things) in the past because my knees can do some funny tricks and I had some pain there. Turned out not to be EDS but instead the problem was caused by the kneecaps not tracking well - that was easily fixed by exercises.
You know your stuff well!
You know your stuff well!
Thanks, in case you missed it though, 90% false negative means you could have received a negative on your test but it can easily be false. The normal tests are almost worthless, especially for men where testosterone helps a lot and reduces flexibility. People with hEDS also often have T4 -> T3 conversion problems and can benefit from supplemental T3. Endocrinologist tend not to know this which is strange because it’s kind of their job so it’s yet another thing you’ll have to figure out yourself. The proper way to check for hEDS is by using to rare comorbitities which co-occur in families with hEDS at a vastly higher rate, i.e. it’ll be almost impossible for a family to have this many seemingly independent things wrong with them by chance without a common hEDS cause. See https://ohtwist.com/about-eds/comorbidities for an extensive but by no means exhaustive list. One of the things not on the list is general and local anesthesia resistance. Dentists will not believe that you’re still in pain after using 2x the dose, or you make wake up under general.
Late response, apologies.
Saw the doctor today and brought this all to him. He has opened cases with and referred me to two specialists: one for the potential long covid symptoms, and one who will be taking another and more thorough look at the hypermobility and associated symptoms.
This information would have never reached me in such an actionable format if it weren't for your detailed comments. Thank you, I really appreciate it!
Saw the doctor today and brought this all to him. He has opened cases with and referred me to two specialists: one for the potential long covid symptoms, and one who will be taking another and more thorough look at the hypermobility and associated symptoms.
This information would have never reached me in such an actionable format if it weren't for your detailed comments. Thank you, I really appreciate it!
My pleasure, it’s a bit of a hobby for me. I hope you manage to find your answers.
I should really get tested for that. I have ADHD and my fingers can do weird crap and I have had 2 suffers and 1 person who has a similar condition tell me I should get checked for it... I just feel weird saying "hey doctor some people told me I might have weird bendy disease, can I have a specialist referral". Without any actual complaints I feel silly
I’ve been feeling that a lot since I caught Covid a few months back too, thanks for mentioning, now I can look it up in context
It's mentioned in most official resources that I've come across as a potential "long-covid" symptom, but I don't recall ever having seen it listed as one of the researched criteria - those seem mostly limited to just the (I suppose much more prevalent) cognitive impairments and exhaustion as in the linked article also.
It's definitely a symptom of COVID. I know someone who had COVID and one day they coughed suddenly, dropped their iPhone on the floor and since then even the iPhone's temperature sensor doesn't work anymore. This is how infectious and terrible COVID is, just one cough caused the loss of temperature sensation!
I was sick with covid for around five days 2 months ago. I had high fever, tiredness, pain on my body and coughing.
After I felt better I observed that I was feeling much more tired than I usually felt.
Now, after two months I feel a little better but not that much... Could this be related to my covid infection? Is there a way to improve my situation?
I did a normal check up but didn't get anything abnormal...
After I felt better I observed that I was feeling much more tired than I usually felt.
Now, after two months I feel a little better but not that much... Could this be related to my covid infection? Is there a way to improve my situation?
I did a normal check up but didn't get anything abnormal...
I am sorry that you have been burdened with this. Fatigue is indeed a known long-term symptom which is not uncommon after the “acute phase”.
In a tweet, here’s the start of a trail of very good information from solid research into these conditions: https://twitter.com/putrinolab/status/1557403364941496320
In a tweet, here’s the start of a trail of very good information from solid research into these conditions: https://twitter.com/putrinolab/status/1557403364941496320
Very interesting info, thank you. It's nice to know that there's a measurable way to know if you've got long covid!
Another anecdote. I also experienced a long tail of symptoms - randomly getting tired, cough inability to write coherent paragraphs after getting COVID.
I found that exercising - starting with 10 min yoga / stretching and then slowly ramping up over 1-2 weeks - got me back to normal.
I found that exercising - starting with 10 min yoga / stretching and then slowly ramping up over 1-2 weeks - got me back to normal.
My experience is very similar to yours. COVID let me feeling very negative but build up to doing a good deal of cardio every day seem to have fixed it.
Thank you for the info and I'm glad that it gets better for you. I had stopped going to the gym because I wanted to rest and because of summer but I will definitely start it again (mainly low impact resistance training) in the following days and see how it works for me!
Funny, had the same happen to me. Thought maybe it was a coincidence, but getting back into my cardio routine eliminated the lingering fatigue I had after Covid, too.
My brother's heart and lung health suffered extensively after his second bout with COVID. O2 uptake is somewhat diminished, and resting heart rate is still very high. Walking up two flights of stairs requires a 5 to 10 minute sit down as he is completely winded by the time he gets to the top.
If any of that sounds familiar, you may want to get some more extensive tests done. I don't know what will come of it, pretty much the only thing that has helped my brother so far is a regular low dose of Benadryl. There's a bit of edgy research or internet driven anecdata (not sure which) that led him to try it, but it is better than nothing, at least.
If any of that sounds familiar, you may want to get some more extensive tests done. I don't know what will come of it, pretty much the only thing that has helped my brother so far is a regular low dose of Benadryl. There's a bit of edgy research or internet driven anecdata (not sure which) that led him to try it, but it is better than nothing, at least.
regular low dose of Benadryl
That supposedly can cause dementia. Just FYI.
That supposedly can cause dementia. Just FYI.
My symptoms are definitely not that significant. My O2 is > 98% (and never fell below even when I had the covid) and I can easily ascend stairs. I only feel that I am more tired than before the covid.
Additional anecdata: This is similar to what happened to me. I got covid earlier this year and had it bad for a week, had stuffiness and a possible sinus infection for a few weeks, and was tired all the time for a few weeks after that. The coughing lingered for a while too. Eventually I got back to normal just waiting it out (disclaimer: this is not a recommendation).
Glad you are better! How much time did it take to improve? I have heard of people that were feeling worse for months after their infection ...
My doc said i was fine too after having covid twice in 9 weeks.
I am still getting winded easily and while i was already out of shape i notice after riding a bike or being active for a full day i still feel bad the following day
I am still getting winded easily and while i was already out of shape i notice after riding a bike or being active for a full day i still feel bad the following day
Some avenues to consider/investigate (consult with your doctor before trying any treatment, but expect to hear "there's no reason to believe that will work" in many cases):
FLCCC I-RECOVER protocol: https://covid19criticalcare.com/covid-19-protocols/i-recover...
"Could tiny blood clots cause Long COVID's puzzling symptoms?" (article reports some people have had success with anti-coagulant therapies, but be especially careful with those): https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-02286-7
Theory of Long COVID as Mast Cell Activation Syndrome (from one of the physicians who pioneered use of fluvoxamine in treatment): https://twitter.com/farid__jalali/status/1315060197988036608
From personal anecdata, I took a PQQ/CoQ10/NAC combo supplement recommended by the local supplements store after both of my two infections, and have never had any long-term symptoms. NAC in particular seems to show up often in the various recovery protocols that are floating around.
FLCCC I-RECOVER protocol: https://covid19criticalcare.com/covid-19-protocols/i-recover...
"Could tiny blood clots cause Long COVID's puzzling symptoms?" (article reports some people have had success with anti-coagulant therapies, but be especially careful with those): https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-02286-7
Theory of Long COVID as Mast Cell Activation Syndrome (from one of the physicians who pioneered use of fluvoxamine in treatment): https://twitter.com/farid__jalali/status/1315060197988036608
From personal anecdata, I took a PQQ/CoQ10/NAC combo supplement recommended by the local supplements store after both of my two infections, and have never had any long-term symptoms. NAC in particular seems to show up often in the various recovery protocols that are floating around.
This is a nice summary.
Also add, that breaking microclots is the main goal not necessarily with anti-coagulants, they are similar but not the same. Anti fibrinogens are more useful in that post covid phase and it has been shown that live virus DOES live in those microclots so that's why antivirals (eg lysine, shown to bind to spike protein and also wide spectrum antiviral) to be used together with them.
Check out dr Gustavo Aguirre's work, he was months early every time.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344325326_COVID-19_...
Also add, that breaking microclots is the main goal not necessarily with anti-coagulants, they are similar but not the same. Anti fibrinogens are more useful in that post covid phase and it has been shown that live virus DOES live in those microclots so that's why antivirals (eg lysine, shown to bind to spike protein and also wide spectrum antiviral) to be used together with them.
Check out dr Gustavo Aguirre's work, he was months early every time.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344325326_COVID-19_...
Thank you very much for the information, I will research it more and try the supplements
This protocol is what solved it for me.
>long-term COVID symptoms are much more prevalent among women, adults under 65, Hispanics and Latinos, and non–college graduates than among other demographic groups.
Weird
Weird
ME/CFS is known to impact 2 women to every 1 man and auto immune conditions tend to follow that pattern due to the differences between men and women when it comes to immune response. As to the social economic factors its probably an ability to isolate from catching the virus, "key workers" were forced to catch it whereas college graduates will have had the ability to work from home and avoid it, many still are and certainly after vaccinations unlike manual workers.
“adults under 65, Hispanics and Latinos, and non–college graduates“ all correlate with things like "people doing blue-collar work"
Yeah, part of the consensus as far as I know is that the best way to avoid long covid is to basically be a absolute couch potato for a month post infection. which of course, you can't do if you have to back to a physical job as soon as soon as possible.
It is the first time I hear this and it can explain things. Do you have references?
One oddity I noticed is that among the people I know, the fittest and most physically active had the worst "mild" covid, which surprised me since it is well known that physical activity is good for immunity (up to a point). They tend to feel like shit for a week or two, and take weeks to months to get back to their pre-covid levels. I attributed it to some kind of bias: when you are lifting weights for instance, you can easily measure your fitness level by noting how much you are able to lift, a measure that couch potatoes don't have and therefore don't notice their weakness. But if you are saying that making efforts just after infection negatively and significantly affects recovery, that could be an explanation.
Also, there are so many articles along the lines of "I used to run marathons, now, with long covid, I can barely walk". It is rarely about "normal" people (in the US, that would be couch potatoes). Again I believe these cases are selected because the before/after contrast makes a better point, but again, "don't exercise after infection" could be an explanation.
One oddity I noticed is that among the people I know, the fittest and most physically active had the worst "mild" covid, which surprised me since it is well known that physical activity is good for immunity (up to a point). They tend to feel like shit for a week or two, and take weeks to months to get back to their pre-covid levels. I attributed it to some kind of bias: when you are lifting weights for instance, you can easily measure your fitness level by noting how much you are able to lift, a measure that couch potatoes don't have and therefore don't notice their weakness. But if you are saying that making efforts just after infection negatively and significantly affects recovery, that could be an explanation.
Also, there are so many articles along the lines of "I used to run marathons, now, with long covid, I can barely walk". It is rarely about "normal" people (in the US, that would be couch potatoes). Again I believe these cases are selected because the before/after contrast makes a better point, but again, "don't exercise after infection" could be an explanation.
This is NOT based on controlled studies:
>>Newly available data from the Household Pulse Survey—an experimental Census Bureau product launched at the start of the pandemic—provide the first large-scale, population-level detail on the prevalence of long COVID.2 Starting with the survey's June 2022 wave, respondents who report having had a diagnosed case of COVID are asked,
>>"Did you have any symptoms lasting 3 months or longer that you did not have prior to having coronavirus or COVID-19?"
We have no idea if it was COVID that was responsible for these symptoms (the most common of which is anxiety) or a response to COVID, like stress, or two weeks isolation after diagnosis, or the pandemic-related restrictions on social interaction.
The best evidence available suggests most cases of "long COVID" are misattribution:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...
>>Newly available data from the Household Pulse Survey—an experimental Census Bureau product launched at the start of the pandemic—provide the first large-scale, population-level detail on the prevalence of long COVID.2 Starting with the survey's June 2022 wave, respondents who report having had a diagnosed case of COVID are asked,
>>"Did you have any symptoms lasting 3 months or longer that you did not have prior to having coronavirus or COVID-19?"
We have no idea if it was COVID that was responsible for these symptoms (the most common of which is anxiety) or a response to COVID, like stress, or two weeks isolation after diagnosis, or the pandemic-related restrictions on social interaction.
The best evidence available suggests most cases of "long COVID" are misattribution:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...
Those of us who had post-infectious disability were screaming about this since early 2020, unfortunately we were ignored in favor of "experts" who suggested we should let a virus with unknown long-term side effects rip through the country.
I've seen estimates as high as 4 million Americans out of work due to being disabled with Long Covid. Add some more people who now can't work because they are taking care of disabled family members.
To me, the only news story that really matters is that we're crippling 2 million+ working age Americans a year, many of them concentrated in very high need areas such as nursing. At this rate, hospitals and schools will functionally (if not officially) collapse within the next few years at most.
A country where you cannot go to the ER when you're sick because there is nobody there to work the ER, and a country where there are no teachers and they've had to bring out the national guard to merely babysit students, is a failed state.
I've seen estimates as high as 4 million Americans out of work due to being disabled with Long Covid. Add some more people who now can't work because they are taking care of disabled family members.
To me, the only news story that really matters is that we're crippling 2 million+ working age Americans a year, many of them concentrated in very high need areas such as nursing. At this rate, hospitals and schools will functionally (if not officially) collapse within the next few years at most.
A country where you cannot go to the ER when you're sick because there is nobody there to work the ER, and a country where there are no teachers and they've had to bring out the national guard to merely babysit students, is a failed state.
> unfortunately we were ignored in favor of "experts" who suggested we should let a virus with unknown long-term side effects rip through the country.
What expert was suggesting that in 2020? As I recall, we shut down schools and restaurants and basically everything else we could for more than a year, except for very limited re-openings (e.g. outdoor dining, in the dead of winter) months later.
We couldn't shut down everything because people need grocery stores to get food!
What expert was suggesting that in 2020? As I recall, we shut down schools and restaurants and basically everything else we could for more than a year, except for very limited re-openings (e.g. outdoor dining, in the dead of winter) months later.
We couldn't shut down everything because people need grocery stores to get food!
Even then there was never any guarantee that shutting everything down would make an impact greater than the costs. The idea that all these lockdowns did anything meaningful at all is still an open question. The fact it is an open question means 1) it never should have been done and 2) its costs have to completely outweigh any benefit.
For the lockdowns and all the other nonsense you should see at least an order of magnitude difference between places that instituted them and those that didn’t. It shouldn’t require fancy statistics or expensive studies to confirm. It should be complete obvious to any reasonable person there was a very large difference.
For the lockdowns and all the other nonsense you should see at least an order of magnitude difference between places that instituted them and those that didn’t. It shouldn’t require fancy statistics or expensive studies to confirm. It should be complete obvious to any reasonable person there was a very large difference.
There was and still is a large difference between otherwise similar areas/countries that did/didn’t take appropriate measures.
So there should be no debate right?
Q: How do you distinguish Long COVID from similar diseases like fibromyalgia?
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/fibromyalgia/...
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/fibromyalgia/...
Long covid is mainly about microclotting and its 1000 downstream effects which can cause MANY different symptoms. Most times root cause is microclotting though, this can be shown by diagnostics as well.
34,423 subscribers:
https://old.reddit.com/r/covidlonghaulers/
I wonder if some % of the population can be extrapolated from that
https://old.reddit.com/r/covidlonghaulers/
I wonder if some % of the population can be extrapolated from that
coding123(1)
jotm(5)
halfjoking(3)
The data showing the difference between percentage of college graduates and noncollege graduates who believe they have long COVID seems to point to a placebo effect. I don't see why college grads and non-college grads would have any reason to be affected differently by a virus.
Far too quick. Of course, there isn't a direct causal connection between college degrees and severity of Covid, but there are huge average differences between more and less educated individuals, including lots of health related outcomes. https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/03/17/educated... (chosen basically at random, basically any relevant google search will get you many articles saying similar things).
It's also unbelievable that these groups don't differ in frequency of having Covid, vaccination rates, likelihood of having had Covid in 2020 vs. post vaccination, etc. Since we know vaccination has some protective effect against long-covid, that's another factor.
This doesn't mean these reports reflect underlying reality permanently (maybe a desk jockey reports disability differently than someone with a physically demanding job, maybe other factors make people less likely to report). But there are plenty of ways education can predict outcomes that aren't just reporting bias.
It's also unbelievable that these groups don't differ in frequency of having Covid, vaccination rates, likelihood of having had Covid in 2020 vs. post vaccination, etc. Since we know vaccination has some protective effect against long-covid, that's another factor.
This doesn't mean these reports reflect underlying reality permanently (maybe a desk jockey reports disability differently than someone with a physically demanding job, maybe other factors make people less likely to report). But there are plenty of ways education can predict outcomes that aren't just reporting bias.
Probably because they were able to work remotely at a higher rate and thus fewer were actually infected. Being diagnosed with COVID was not a prerequisite for this study.
People with more (or later) education will often have better outcomes for things like Alzheimer’s Disease. It’s not unreasonable to think that education may have a protective role.
One theory is that educated people compensate better for decline on cognitive tests, basically by “muscling through it”. I’ve heard it doesn’t change the overall course of the disease much but it does make the decline less noticeable in the early stages.
I agree. Research papers and books (can currently think of one[1]) mention that there is more nicotine users among less-educated.
It's not far-fetched to assume that this substance is not atypical and educated people make in general more health-conscious choices.
[1] https://moleculeofmore.com/
It's not far-fetched to assume that this substance is not atypical and educated people make in general more health-conscious choices.
[1] https://moleculeofmore.com/
Nicotine itself is not particularly dangerous and smoking cigarettes with no nicotine would be just as bad for your lungs. The main with it is the addiction however there is bo clear link between long term use of nicotine itself and any significantly negative health outcomes.
I would argue that education enables a lifestyle that is protective, rather than education itself.
Education is also self selected, so it likely representative of other choices as well.
It just isn’t though. Opportunity is not doled out equally. Yes, everyone has the chance to be educated. But some schools are better, some families more supportive etc. And certainly there are exceptions that defy their environment but they are exceptions.
That doesn’t distract from the fact that many that have the opportunity chose not seek or continue higher education. This is especially true post collage.
No, the data does not show placebo effect.
Reason: College grads are more likely to get vaccinated against COVID than non-grads. Leading to a reduction in symptom severity and perhaps long covid.
https://healthpolicy.usc.edu/evidence-base/education-is-now-...
Reason: College grads are more likely to get vaccinated against COVID than non-grads. Leading to a reduction in symptom severity and perhaps long covid.
https://healthpolicy.usc.edu/evidence-base/education-is-now-...
But there could be other causes. You are operating under the default assumption long COVID must exist. But non-grads on average are poorer, work in different environments, and have different health (i.e. obesity and diabetes) than grads. There could be any number of underlying health conditions causing brain fog and other long COVID symptoms. Obesity and diabetes are known to impact brain function and are correlated with Alzheimer's. Sedentary lifestyles and poor diet can also lead to low energy.
The reason I say placebo is because any of these pre-existing conditions could be blamed on long COVID. Think about it: you don't know much about diseases, you see CNN/Fox News/MSNBC talking about long COVID. You think to yourself, hey I've got those symptoms! You blame long COVID, even though the underlying cause could have been obesity, diabetes, sedentary lifestyle, diet, etc.
We know obesity is harmful yet the fat acceptance movement exists. Do you think those people are going to blame their symptoms on their obesity?
The reason I say placebo is because any of these pre-existing conditions could be blamed on long COVID. Think about it: you don't know much about diseases, you see CNN/Fox News/MSNBC talking about long COVID. You think to yourself, hey I've got those symptoms! You blame long COVID, even though the underlying cause could have been obesity, diabetes, sedentary lifestyle, diet, etc.
We know obesity is harmful yet the fat acceptance movement exists. Do you think those people are going to blame their symptoms on their obesity?
Obesity among college graduates is relatively low in aggregate, and obesity is associated with LC.
College graduates may be less likely to be exposed to larger quantities of COVID molecules (e.g. driving via car, vs taking the subway, or any other number of possibilities), or perhaps they had better treatment of their COVID due to their financial capabilities.
There are strong selection criteria biases at work here; this does not indicate psychosomatic.
I think you are right, but I don't think placebo necessarily means psychosomatic. Does it?
If a placebo is effective it’s presumed to psychosomatic as there have been no underlying medical changes. In this case I presumed that the term ‘placebo’ was being used incorrectly and what was meant was psychosomatic.
That is certainly an explanation. But I'm large studies like this, it seems as likely it was just an uncontrolled variable. Right?
I’m unsure as to what you mean. There most certainly are lots of uncontrolled variables. I’d be highly surprised if this study wasn’t flawed in a number of material ways.
I'm just saying that we don't have to jump to psychosomatic to explain why a placebo may show identical results to a treatment. There are plenty of ways that can happen.
Education levels tracked the acceptance of masking and vaccination, and the political divide that has emerged from Trump.
I think highly educated people are often simply indoctrinated with facts and beliefs rather than trained to be intelligent and knowledgeable.
I think highly educated people are often simply indoctrinated with facts and beliefs rather than trained to be intelligent and knowledgeable.
Education is about using intelligence not gaining it. That said, in practice knowledge can be more useful than intelligence if the circumstances presented fit the available knowledge well.
There is now fairly substantial evidence that COVID can cause your brain to physically shrink. Maybe some people experience a placebo effect, but long COVID is clearly a real, physical disease at this point.
I wonder how much of the covid related long term cognitive impairment is due to the marked lockdown induced increase in alcohol consumption[1]. I’m assuming that if deaths increased other than death bad outcomes probably increased too.
Edit: I see nothing in the submission showing there’s no substance abuse effect, clearly or otherwise.
[1] https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/news-events/research-update/deaths...
Edit: I see nothing in the submission showing there’s no substance abuse effect, clearly or otherwise.
[1] https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/news-events/research-update/deaths...
> In this note, I use two survey datasets to document four facts about long COVID in the United States. First, long-term COVID symptoms are much more prevalent among women, adults under 65, Hispanics and Latinos, and non–college graduates than among other demographic groups. Second, COVID "long haulers" cite specific physical and cognitive impairments commonly associated with the condition in media and medical reporting. Third, the share of working-age adults reporting serious difficulty remembering, concentrating, or making decisions has risen steadily since the start of the pandemic. Fourth, growing shares of women and of non–college graduates report simultaneously (i) being out of the labor force due to disability and (ii) experiencing these cognitive difficulties.
I'm generally interested in a good summary of what medical research tells us about long COVID. Reason being I think it's fair to hypothesize that the following facts are at least fair confounding factors:
1. Whenever economic situations become weaker, disability rates rise. This is largely because people who are "on the cusp" may find it worth it to find a job in good times, but in bad times find it's not worth it to "push through" their disability.
2. There has been so much news coverage about long COVID that it's difficult for me to tell how it compares to other long term viral syndromes. E.g. infection with Epstein Barr virus has long been implicated in a lost of long term conditions like CFS and MS. Is long COVID more common in COVID sufferers than these other syndromes are in EB infection?
3. There have been huge societal changes that have occurred in the past couple years that can make it difficult to tease out the effects of COVID alone.
Not trying to discount any individual suffering from long COVID symptoms, but I think caution is warranted when trying to ascertain the effects at a society-wide level, especially when all the data for this article appears to come from self-reports.