Ask HN: Cloud certifications and job prospects. Is there a real connection?
38 comments
AWS certifications from AWS are reasonably legit.
That said, most certifications are a negative indicator of competence. This is supported by direct experience and research studies.
At the prior 3 institutions I was CTO, we routinely screened out resumes with a laundry list of certifications before even speaking to candidates.
Note this is not about having certifications, it’s about mediocre candidates attempting to signal competence on the resume by listing a pile of cert-mill nonsense. The negative correlation is so high, when hiring at scale just toss the ones with certs (but give recruiters a list of exceptions, e.g., AWS, CNCF, etc.).
// Again, there are exceptions, and AWS first party certifications are among them.
That said, most certifications are a negative indicator of competence. This is supported by direct experience and research studies.
At the prior 3 institutions I was CTO, we routinely screened out resumes with a laundry list of certifications before even speaking to candidates.
Note this is not about having certifications, it’s about mediocre candidates attempting to signal competence on the resume by listing a pile of cert-mill nonsense. The negative correlation is so high, when hiring at scale just toss the ones with certs (but give recruiters a list of exceptions, e.g., AWS, CNCF, etc.).
// Again, there are exceptions, and AWS first party certifications are among them.
I very positively favor engineers who took AWS certifications.
Even the most basic Solutions Associate means I can trust that you at least know what I mean when I say 'SQS', 'KMS' and 'ECS'.
I prefer every engineer at least have foundational knowledge of AWS. We use IaC to template out everything and put 'training wheels' on our infra, meaning engineers might not spend a ton of time in AWS, the real benefit is in communication. Especially since I want engineers to feel confident to use our IaC to build solutions that scale and discuss how it could better suit the engineering teams needs, rather than just having an 'OPs team' drive application decisions.
Even the most basic Solutions Associate means I can trust that you at least know what I mean when I say 'SQS', 'KMS' and 'ECS'.
I prefer every engineer at least have foundational knowledge of AWS. We use IaC to template out everything and put 'training wheels' on our infra, meaning engineers might not spend a ton of time in AWS, the real benefit is in communication. Especially since I want engineers to feel confident to use our IaC to build solutions that scale and discuss how it could better suit the engineering teams needs, rather than just having an 'OPs team' drive application decisions.
I know AWS is the most used cloud platform among the many out there. But wouldn't you be missing on really talented people that have only worked on Azure or Google Cloud for say 10 years? Or is it the expectation that any OPs engineer should know the fundamentals of all the big players?
I would say the skills are largely transferrable as the product offerings are analogous in many cases.
If my environment is AWS and someone has experience with GCP I’ll pass in favor of someone who knows AWS. The concepts are the same but the day to day is quite different.
GCP and Azure is fine, although I hope they would take the time to learn AWS lingo.
As a hiring manager, the certs are ok, but the experience is what matters.
I always ask engineers this "What do you think about the AWS documentation?" If you've had to actually parse through it yourself to learn how to get something working, that's more valuable.
I always ask engineers this "What do you think about the AWS documentation?" If you've had to actually parse through it yourself to learn how to get something working, that's more valuable.
Honestly compared to all other cloud platforms I've used I find AWS documentation to be amazing. I use AWS all day every day in my job and the only resource I've needed 95% of the time is the AWS docs. It's my first and last stop mostly.
Honestly if I see a cert I run the other direction. To me it speaks to the type of person, I would much rather see open source or just experience
That's frankly a fascinating response.
I have certs because my boss asked me to get them, as they play a part in his business' ability to obtain partner status with the various cloud vendors.
It is confusing to me that this chain of events would lead you to dismiss me out of hand, or make value judgements about what type of person I am.
I have certs because my boss asked me to get them, as they play a part in his business' ability to obtain partner status with the various cloud vendors.
It is confusing to me that this chain of events would lead you to dismiss me out of hand, or make value judgements about what type of person I am.
> It is confusing to me that this chain of events would lead you to dismiss me out of hand, or make value judgements about what type of person I am.
I don't think he's making value judgements based on the fact that you have certs, but rather based on the fact that you choose to put certs on your resume over something else, like an open source project. When people write their resumes they usually need to cut out things and include only the most important qualifications and experience for the job. So he's making the value judgement based on how you think about those certifications. They signal "this paper that anyone can get with a bunch of memorization and studying is the best I have"
I share a similar opinion. I wouldn't reject someone who put certs on their resume just based on that, but to me it's a negative signal. The same goes for people who put MOOCs on their resume.
I don't think he's making value judgements based on the fact that you have certs, but rather based on the fact that you choose to put certs on your resume over something else, like an open source project. When people write their resumes they usually need to cut out things and include only the most important qualifications and experience for the job. So he's making the value judgement based on how you think about those certifications. They signal "this paper that anyone can get with a bunch of memorization and studying is the best I have"
I share a similar opinion. I wouldn't reject someone who put certs on their resume just based on that, but to me it's a negative signal. The same goes for people who put MOOCs on their resume.
Certs take a single line on a resume.
Sometimes people don't have the pedigree or the opportunity to prove themselves in a high value position, so certs is the only thing available to signal competence.
The fact that many people (in this thread) look down on it is directly responsible for putting a glass ceiling over some people and reducing upward mobility. It's just bad judgment.
I mean it's one thing to require them to do a skill test, but to outright filter them or toss their resumes in the bin is unequivocally shitty.
Sometimes people don't have the pedigree or the opportunity to prove themselves in a high value position, so certs is the only thing available to signal competence.
The fact that many people (in this thread) look down on it is directly responsible for putting a glass ceiling over some people and reducing upward mobility. It's just bad judgment.
I mean it's one thing to require them to do a skill test, but to outright filter them or toss their resumes in the bin is unequivocally shitty.
exactly
It's not about having them, it's about putting them on your Linkedin/CV.
I have read tons of tech books (many of them way better than certificates on the same topics). I do not list them on my Linkedin/CV.
I have read tons of tech books (many of them way better than certificates on the same topics). I do not list them on my Linkedin/CV.
What if you haven't worked with AWS, but managed to get an AWS cert as stand-in to get you a chance at a job which relies on AWS?
I've heard that comment once or twice but never from someone who actually has experience hiring people
I have lots of experience hiring people. Usually the people with certificates don't have much experience actually doing work or they have narrow capability. The cliche is putting them on your resume is not an indicator of general capability. 25 years ago there were tons of people with novell netware engineer and similar things for various technologies, but it wasn't a good interview signal. I was looking for software engineers though, and even though we were on windows at the time mostly, I didn't care about certified windows developers, people with that type of cert were not usually good devs in general. I even worked on helping to write the test for sql server, and I didn't see a point to getting certified myself and I authored part of it ;-)
I think it's really hard to get started in tech, and you can of course get benefit from actually studying the technologies and tools you'll be using in your job ;-) A certification is really good if you have a very specific use case and you need someone for a narrow type of work. I almost never want to hire someone for a narrow use case though. But if I was hiring contractors to fix something very specific on only aws say, then maybe it would be useful.
Of course I'm just some random person on the internet; getting a few certs might help at the start, listing things on your resume that you worked on is much better as an aid to getting interviewed and hired.
I think it's really hard to get started in tech, and you can of course get benefit from actually studying the technologies and tools you'll be using in your job ;-) A certification is really good if you have a very specific use case and you need someone for a narrow type of work. I almost never want to hire someone for a narrow use case though. But if I was hiring contractors to fix something very specific on only aws say, then maybe it would be useful.
Of course I'm just some random person on the internet; getting a few certs might help at the start, listing things on your resume that you worked on is much better as an aid to getting interviewed and hired.
I've been involved with some hiring, but not a lot... and I would tend to agree that I wouldn't reject a resume just for listing certs on it. If I see a resume with experience and some cert listed at the end, I would not count it against the person. Now if their resume primarily focused on how many certs they have and not on experience, I would think they are entry level at best. If I am looking for entry-level, I may still give them a shot though.
lol I'm a principal engineer now and previously and EM with tons of hiring experience
This makes me curious. I have 3 AWS certs, that I was required to get because I work for Amazon. I put them on my LinkedIn (I'm proud of them, they were hard to get) but haven't considered putting them on my resume. Are they really that bad that I should consider removing them from LinkedIn too?
I mean I'm just one guy with an opinion. I see them sort of in the same vein as CompTIA, and I prefer to hire people that think on their feet and can solve problems quickly using whatever skills may be required for the task.
So generally I'm looking for creative problem solvers that do open source work and learn as they go on their own. I've just seen over my career that people who play the cert game are usually on the other end of this spectrum. I'm obviously painting in broad strokes here
How I build teams has worked really well for me, but there are lots of great ways of building teams that create value which are likely very different from mine.
So generally I'm looking for creative problem solvers that do open source work and learn as they go on their own. I've just seen over my career that people who play the cert game are usually on the other end of this spectrum. I'm obviously painting in broad strokes here
How I build teams has worked really well for me, but there are lots of great ways of building teams that create value which are likely very different from mine.
I have experience hiring people.
Years ago, I used some personal projects and a database certification to make some desired job changes. I advise any person to leverage both training (traditional education, certification, etc) along with a demonstrable portfolio of work to do the same. Even now, I occasionally do a MOOC and earn the certificate just for personal interest.
I hope hiring orgs don't run away from candidates simply because they undertook a certification. But I understand the caution - my org has had bad experiences with coursework-only MS in computer science career changers who turned out to not have any real skills and maybe not even any desire to learn any real skills.
I hope hiring orgs don't run away from candidates simply because they undertook a certification. But I understand the caution - my org has had bad experiences with coursework-only MS in computer science career changers who turned out to not have any real skills and maybe not even any desire to learn any real skills.
I see how people come to adopt this perspective. However, because so many tech workers appear ambivalent about their job and tech in general, any signal indicating effort to take control of their career direction is positive.
Every member of a software team does not need to super star autodidact. In a lot of cases it would actually be counterproductive to have such a composition.
Every member of a software team does not need to super star autodidact. In a lot of cases it would actually be counterproductive to have such a composition.
Thats a fair point, showing some level of effort is better than none. I generally want teams with just a few rockstars than a bunch of decent engineers. I've just found them to output far more at higher quality.
I tend to be skeptical of a resume heavy in certifications, but if there’s real experience and a display of competence seeing AWS solutions architect certification is a plus not a minus.
It really depends on where you want to work. If you want to work at a large organization, I really recommend it. Thing big blue and such. A lot of their government and f-500 contracts are with entities that have contracts which state, "all our employees/contractors are certified."
I have been told by recruiters they can easily double most people's salary, this is for AZ-204/400 certs.
I have been told by recruiters they can easily double most people's salary, this is for AZ-204/400 certs.
The AZ-900 exam reminded me of the Simpsons episode, "Pepsi? Partial credit!"
In UK context, many job ads for DevOps/Platform/SRE/Cloud roles will ask for AWS SAA if AWS is being used. I see other certs listed far less, whether AWS or otherwise. AWS SAA does seem to be the best value one in this sense. I'm currently working on AWS SAP.and wondering if there is any point tbh as I hardly ever see on job ads.
The AWS SysOps Associate exam is actually far more rigorous - questions are harder IMHO and it has a lab now so I would personally view someone holding that more favourably.
All clouds have partner programmes (mostly agency consultants) where status is partly linked to number of certified staff at different levels. For AWS specialty certs count same as professional in partner programme so for AWS partners they should just get them to do the easy AWS specialties like security instead of SAP.
I think the certs just help to get CV in front of people, they won't help much after that.
The AWS SysOps Associate exam is actually far more rigorous - questions are harder IMHO and it has a lab now so I would personally view someone holding that more favourably.
All clouds have partner programmes (mostly agency consultants) where status is partly linked to number of certified staff at different levels. For AWS specialty certs count same as professional in partner programme so for AWS partners they should just get them to do the easy AWS specialties like security instead of SAP.
I think the certs just help to get CV in front of people, they won't help much after that.
I have 6 certs, earned over almost 30 years in the business.
They used to be flashy, eye-catching perhaps.
Now… I would say they don't mean much.
Knowledge? Experience? NOW we're talkin.
As one other comment suggests, they help you get vendor status… but if you don't have the requisite knowledge to back up the paper, they're not worth the paper they're printed on.
They used to be flashy, eye-catching perhaps.
Now… I would say they don't mean much.
Knowledge? Experience? NOW we're talkin.
As one other comment suggests, they help you get vendor status… but if you don't have the requisite knowledge to back up the paper, they're not worth the paper they're printed on.
I was doing aws for years before I sat the solutions architect exam. I learned a lot and would recommend it to anyone operating in the space. I hire and having that cert goes a long way towards showing you know your way around AWS.
For me getting an AWS cert before I started job hopping helped in my confidence. It cost time to learn the material but I felt more confident that I had knowledge of the cloud platform. Doing a cert also exposes you to a wider arrange of services than what you'd normally use if you were trying to build something and ship it out the door. A cert will never replace or exceed real world xp in value tho
My certifications led directly to getting my first job in tech. And there are AWS partners and other companies which require a certain percentage of their workforce be AWS certified. I think AWS certs are valuable.
I think it can only help. Employability aside, you might even enjoy doing them! The AWS certs aren't to be sniffed at, even if your experience after completing it is only theoretical (better than nothing).
YOu can get the certs by studying and doing quizzes on the online learning platforms.
You probably want to get hands-on experience and put stuff up on Github if you actually want it to make a difference.
You probably want to get hands-on experience and put stuff up on Github if you actually want it to make a difference.
PAPER TIGER; unless you have the experience.....
I'm wondering though if there's any tangible connection between the two. What has been your experience with these and similar certifications?