An offshore workforce is training Amazon’s warehouse-monitoring algorithms(theverge.com)
theverge.com
An offshore workforce is training Amazon’s warehouse-monitoring algorithms
https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/21/23466219/amazon-warehouse-surveillance-camera-offshore-workers-india-costa-rica
54 comments
There are likely teams of tech workers maintaining the surveillance tech pipeline at the company. Excluding the people who just don't care, or who enjoy it for the wrong reasons, the rest probably believe that the tech they work on is good and helping the world.
Anyone who believes this is good work and helping the world is deluded. It's full on race to the bottom, treat people like robots, surveillance state stuff.
What is the limit for monitoring? Is a GPS tracker too much? Video too much?
My wife is in healthcare and knows how to properly administer vaccine injections so that the kid gets thee best immune response. She has had to notify our clinic that their nurses are not proper administering the vaccine. How would someone audit this if it is not recorded?
We have also had doctors write notes stating they checked or discussed so and so issues, when it blatantly did not happen, so we have to send a message correcting them. I understand that the doctor is likely covering their ass from excessive liability, but they’re also concerns from the patient side that proper care is not being delivered and the patient will never know.
I am not intending to pick on healthcare, it is just the first example that came to mind for when I thought of instances where recorded evidence would benefit me. But it is interesting to think about changes in societal trust and perception of societal trust now that recording is so cheap. Surely, one would agree that recording a cop while on the job is necessary (for both cop and others), so what is the line that separates a delivery worker?
My wife is in healthcare and knows how to properly administer vaccine injections so that the kid gets thee best immune response. She has had to notify our clinic that their nurses are not proper administering the vaccine. How would someone audit this if it is not recorded?
We have also had doctors write notes stating they checked or discussed so and so issues, when it blatantly did not happen, so we have to send a message correcting them. I understand that the doctor is likely covering their ass from excessive liability, but they’re also concerns from the patient side that proper care is not being delivered and the patient will never know.
I am not intending to pick on healthcare, it is just the first example that came to mind for when I thought of instances where recorded evidence would benefit me. But it is interesting to think about changes in societal trust and perception of societal trust now that recording is so cheap. Surely, one would agree that recording a cop while on the job is necessary (for both cop and others), so what is the line that separates a delivery worker?
Those at VP and above levels should subject themselves to the same sort of monitoring as delivery workers so as to lead by example.
Definitely. If managers want to monitor delivery workers for productivity, shareholders should want to monitor managers for productivity too.
>Surely, one would agree that recording a cop while on the job is necessary (for both cop and others), so what is the line that separates a delivery worker?
are delivery workers regularly shooting or beating up people as part of their jobs and then saying it was necessary force?
are delivery workers regularly shooting or beating up people as part of their jobs and then saying it was necessary force?
Sure, but would one codify this if they wanted to make it law? The complexity of that is what I was trying to point out. And obviously, in its absence, we have deliver workers being recorded on the truck, because it’s simply so cheap now.
you do it on a law that says jobs that are involved with public safety are surveiled and otherwise not. I guess I don't see the complexity of this in comparison to other laws and regulations.
What is public safety? Surely, driving a vehicle on the road affects public safety, so recording the driving would be allowed.
A nurse giving injections to people is public safety, so recording that would have to be allowed.
Cleaning floors so they are not slippery is public safety, as well as preparing food.
Playing with spreadsheets on a computer is maybe one thing that does not involve public safety.
A nurse giving injections to people is public safety, so recording that would have to be allowed.
Cleaning floors so they are not slippery is public safety, as well as preparing food.
Playing with spreadsheets on a computer is maybe one thing that does not involve public safety.
first of all in an American context the cleaning floors example would probably be laughed out of court as in no way being understood as Public safety, which would probably go with something like this https://www.austintexas.gov/blog/what-public-safety
>Legal scholars define public safety as “the protection of the general public,” and they reference groups like police officers and firefighters as Public Safety Officers. Many governments form their policies on this idea of protecting people’s physical welfare. They often focus on combating crime in an effort to help community members feel secure, and they hire for roles like law enforcement officers and medical emergency responders.
however I am getting the feeling you have never actually been involved in the writing of a law before
Defining public safety occupations would be pretty easy, although a lot of lawmakers in order to cut down on the misunderstandings might just go ahead and write a list of occupations that count as public safety if they did not want to let the courts decide. In a Napoleonic system I might expect the defining of public safety and it's meanings to take up a page or two of work, depending on how the makers wanted to define it (list of occupations affected, defining characteristics of occupations that would be affected)
>Legal scholars define public safety as “the protection of the general public,” and they reference groups like police officers and firefighters as Public Safety Officers. Many governments form their policies on this idea of protecting people’s physical welfare. They often focus on combating crime in an effort to help community members feel secure, and they hire for roles like law enforcement officers and medical emergency responders.
however I am getting the feeling you have never actually been involved in the writing of a law before
Defining public safety occupations would be pretty easy, although a lot of lawmakers in order to cut down on the misunderstandings might just go ahead and write a list of occupations that count as public safety if they did not want to let the courts decide. In a Napoleonic system I might expect the defining of public safety and it's meanings to take up a page or two of work, depending on how the makers wanted to define it (list of occupations affected, defining characteristics of occupations that would be affected)
> Surely, one would agree that recording a cop while on the job is necessary (for both cop and others), so what is the line that separates a delivery worker?
I don't know any delivery drivers who have state approval to use force and kill with little to no impunity. They also don't have billion dollar unions that will go up to bat for them when they do face liability for their actions.
One is one of the very few checks on power that exist, the other is used to punish workers for using the bathroom instead of peeing in bottles.
I don't know any delivery drivers who have state approval to use force and kill with little to no impunity. They also don't have billion dollar unions that will go up to bat for them when they do face liability for their actions.
One is one of the very few checks on power that exist, the other is used to punish workers for using the bathroom instead of peeing in bottles.
The line is when surveillance becomes a means to subject people to demeaning conditions.
Agreed, and it makes my skin crawl knowing that there are plenty of people in the field who would adopt those delusions to justify the work they do.
>Amazon said that workers in India had the option to take Diwali off, and the company’s spokesperson Kelly said workers in India and Costa Rica were “encouraged by the software they use to take short breaks throughout their shifts.”
It seems like everyone ignores the fact you are supposed to take breaks resulting in health issues. The workers should consider all taking breaks.
It seems like everyone ignores the fact you are supposed to take breaks resulting in health issues. The workers should consider all taking breaks.
The way it's framed, it seems as if it's not possible to be a "good worker" if you take the recommended breaks.
Might not be factually true but that's what the article seems to imply.
Might not be factually true but that's what the article seems to imply.
Good is relative. It's toxic to skip breaks or work extra hours so that you can be the best worker.
That's a privilege of skilled labour unfortunately. With unskilled, easily replaceable work force managers often simply aim to maximally exploit them, and if (when) they burn out they simply hire the next one.
Amazon have been providing an offshore workforce as a service for 15+ years, AKA Mechanical Turk
Right? I remember a guy who posted here that received over 2M Stellar XLM crypto by using the Mechanical Turk to pay people to sign up under their personal accounts to receive the 6K freebies per person and transfer their loot to him. At the time, XLM was worth virtually nothing, so getting a buck or two was a decent exchange for some. I think at its height, though, it was worth about 90 cents a token.
At it's height that's still $1.8m for paying ~350 people
> fkey meThis report
What’s going on there? Some kind of typo? Slang I never heard? SS in case only I see this: https://i.imgur.com/FP7oO8E.png
What’s going on there? Some kind of typo? Slang I never heard? SS in case only I see this: https://i.imgur.com/FP7oO8E.png
Perhaps a mistyped instruction to the content management system, which has resulted in it being rendered on the page instead of interpreted as an instruction?
I feel that we are living through Les Misérables again
> I feel that we are living through Les Misérables again
Seems like a speed run of the gilded age to me with the inevitable war theater in Europe and potentially Asia as the back drop for the World Wars that took placce in the 20th Century seems more apt; Amazon is the worst of the FAANGS, and that is saying a lot. It operates under the notion of such an extreme as a 'core value' that it becomes entirely counter-productive, but since the glut of it's customer base doesn't seem to detract from the abuse labour experiences in the process it continues.
To me the closest analog to Amazon were the oil and steel barons of the time that used and abused it's work force, and exploited children etc...
There is a massive Global protest scheduled for this Black Friday [0], so the least I could do was refrain from using it since I can be out there demo'ing at this phase of my Life anymore. Amazon is one of the few corps that I feel should be not just unionized but also broken up by the State, which is really saying something since I think that is the closest thing to an economic nuclear option there is, but we're way past that point now.
0: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2021/11/23/amazon-prote...
Seems like a speed run of the gilded age to me with the inevitable war theater in Europe and potentially Asia as the back drop for the World Wars that took placce in the 20th Century seems more apt; Amazon is the worst of the FAANGS, and that is saying a lot. It operates under the notion of such an extreme as a 'core value' that it becomes entirely counter-productive, but since the glut of it's customer base doesn't seem to detract from the abuse labour experiences in the process it continues.
To me the closest analog to Amazon were the oil and steel barons of the time that used and abused it's work force, and exploited children etc...
There is a massive Global protest scheduled for this Black Friday [0], so the least I could do was refrain from using it since I can be out there demo'ing at this phase of my Life anymore. Amazon is one of the few corps that I feel should be not just unionized but also broken up by the State, which is really saying something since I think that is the closest thing to an economic nuclear option there is, but we're way past that point now.
0: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2021/11/23/amazon-prote...
>Seems like a speed run of the gilded age to me with the inevitable war theater in Europe and potentially Asia as the back drop for the World Wars that took placce in the 20th Century seems more apt;
What does workplace monitoring have to do with global conflicts?
>There is a massive Global protest scheduled for this Black Friday [0],
Doesn't this type of stuff (eg. anti-capitalism/consumerism protests) happen every black friday? They're always hyped up to be some huge event, but when the day comes it's always underwhelming. The article you linked yourself makes no mention of participants, for instance.
What does workplace monitoring have to do with global conflicts?
>There is a massive Global protest scheduled for this Black Friday [0],
Doesn't this type of stuff (eg. anti-capitalism/consumerism protests) happen every black friday? They're always hyped up to be some huge event, but when the day comes it's always underwhelming. The article you linked yourself makes no mention of participants, for instance.
> What does workplace monitoring have to do with global conflicts?
Let me make it clearer: I feel that the sine 2008 we've been living in an era that resembles the gilded age, and that Amazon is the closest analogue to the robber barons (oil and steel) of that time who exploited and ravaged as they pleased. Workplace monitoring doesn't have anything to do with global conflicts, but workplace intimidation is the norm for these type of Industry-titans who feel they can and do get away with anything with a small fine and legal fees.
> Doesn't this type of stuff (eg. anti-capitalism/consumerism protests) happen every black friday? They're always hyped up to be some huge event, but when the day comes it's always underwhelming. The article you linked yourself makes no mention of participants, for instance.
At the Global level, entered entirely towards this grotesque behemothafter the abysmal record for it's labour poliies? No, I don't think it has even reahed this scope. It's less to do with anti-capitalism/consumerism protests as that is what employees these people, on more to do with workplace reform.
This is also worth noting in ase you didn't read it:
Make Amazon Pay, a coalition of workers and activists, is organizing Black Friday protests to demand the retail giant raise wages, pay more taxes and reduce its carbon footprint, according to its website. The strikes are set to take place at factories, warehouses, data centers, corporate offices and oil refineries across the world, including sites in Minnesota, California, Boston and New York City.
Let me make it clearer: I feel that the sine 2008 we've been living in an era that resembles the gilded age, and that Amazon is the closest analogue to the robber barons (oil and steel) of that time who exploited and ravaged as they pleased. Workplace monitoring doesn't have anything to do with global conflicts, but workplace intimidation is the norm for these type of Industry-titans who feel they can and do get away with anything with a small fine and legal fees.
> Doesn't this type of stuff (eg. anti-capitalism/consumerism protests) happen every black friday? They're always hyped up to be some huge event, but when the day comes it's always underwhelming. The article you linked yourself makes no mention of participants, for instance.
At the Global level, entered entirely towards this grotesque behemothafter the abysmal record for it's labour poliies? No, I don't think it has even reahed this scope. It's less to do with anti-capitalism/consumerism protests as that is what employees these people, on more to do with workplace reform.
This is also worth noting in ase you didn't read it:
Make Amazon Pay, a coalition of workers and activists, is organizing Black Friday protests to demand the retail giant raise wages, pay more taxes and reduce its carbon footprint, according to its website. The strikes are set to take place at factories, warehouses, data centers, corporate offices and oil refineries across the world, including sites in Minnesota, California, Boston and New York City.
Yes, apparently there is such an animal: https://aws.amazon.com/energy/solutions/refinery-monitoring-...
What I don't understand is why tech people (who have plenty of job opportunities) want to work for a company which does things like this.
Have you been to India? There is high income inequality and poverty and labor is cheap. People are willing to do anything to have a better life and they don’t care if it affects other people . With 1.3 billion people competition for survival is fierce and empathy for others may lead to your downfall as only the fittest survive . The education is geared towards STEM to be highly employable and make money to get out of poverty . Amazon and big tech love India for smart , dedicated and hardworking workers who do not question broader societal questions and serve the company.
PS - Sorry I am stereotyping to an extent and do not mean to come across as hateful. Just answering why tech people want to work in such situations.
I should probably have been more specific in my comment; I fully understand people who are working on visa's (or wanting to obtain one) working for these companies.
What I don't understand is why people who have no "nothing to lose" incentive (for example are "native" citizens of a country such company is based in) want to work for these companies. These people can lead perfectly comfortable lives without working for companies which behave questionably.
What I don't understand is why people who have no "nothing to lose" incentive (for example are "native" citizens of a country such company is based in) want to work for these companies. These people can lead perfectly comfortable lives without working for companies which behave questionably.
The way they treat even their tech people is horrible. I would say either you get paid a fortune or you work there to have amazon on your resume on the way to a better gig.
Same reason some people go work in Defense.
Money.
Money.
Most of the people I know in defense are relatively mission oriented.
I don’t work in defense and I don’t want to, but I’d say defense is much more a gray area than Amazon. Defense is required, but has definitely gone of the rails in ways.
On the other hand, Amazon is definitely not required at all, it’s a pure race to the bottom play.
On the other hand, Amazon is definitely not required at all, it’s a pure race to the bottom play.
>In the summer of 2020, Amazon’s warehouse in Bolton, England, was rolling out a new stowing system — known internally as “Nike” — that relied on computer vision and manual checks from workers in India and Costa Rica.
I hope I wasn't the only one to notice that. The person who named it must be truly diabolical.
I hope I wasn't the only one to notice that. The person who named it must be truly diabolical.
I'm not sure what the issue is with the italicized text (I get the neo-Dickensian awfulness of the article). Nike is Greek for Victory though.
I was imagining Bezos watching from somewhere and screaming into a mic "JUST DO IT".
> Indian interviewees said they earned 25,000 rupees ($306) per month on average, while the Costa Rican average was 514,000 colones ($843).
What explains the difference?
What explains the difference?
Could be time zones. I recall reading an article about Mechanical Turk that suggested the highest-paying tasks get done the quickest. I wonder if those are often posted on US hours, leaving lower paid tasks for Indian daylight hours.
Costa Rica has a pretty educated workforce. Probably just demand a higher wage.
Cost of living.
To imply that Costa Rica's education is somehow superior to India's is misrepresenting the situation.
If in my local market 300 dollars is a pretty good average then I don't have leverage to ask for 800 dollars from the HR department of a billion dollar beast of a company who will create every possible pressure to adjust the offer according to my local market.
To imply that Costa Rica's education is somehow superior to India's is misrepresenting the situation.
If in my local market 300 dollars is a pretty good average then I don't have leverage to ask for 800 dollars from the HR department of a billion dollar beast of a company who will create every possible pressure to adjust the offer according to my local market.
But that doesn't explain the incentive for Amazon to hire anyone from Costa Rica at 3x higher salary? If education/skills are the same why not just hire more Indians (or ppl from some other, cheaper Latin America country) and save a lot of money? Hell, they could easily open a center in many parts of Eastern Europe and still hire people for far less than those $800.
There could be tons of other factors in play. Regulation, taxes, available workforce, etc. that guide decisions like these.
I think the real answer is: The difference between $300 and $800 per worker for a program like this is _couch money_ for a company like Amazon. The value they will eventually derive from the data and profits is well worth whatever time savings they get from hiring someone in the western hemisphere I imagine.
> To imply that Costa Rica's education is somehow superior to India's is misrepresenting the situation.
You fail to explain why it is a misrepresentation. In fact, you don't address it at all outside of this statement.
You fail to explain why it is a misrepresentation. In fact, you don't address it at all outside of this statement.
India is a very cheap place to live in.
This is a complete disgrace.
Anyone still wondering why there are so many Indian scammers?
Why work this BS job for BS money, when you can scam old people and get paid.
I'm just going to assume the people in the scam call-centers who call me are getting pretty BS money as well. No reason their bosses should be egalitarian minded friends to the working class.
Some of the scammers are slaves. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-62792875
Others believe they are legit employees selling a genuine product like anti virus. Can't find a link for this right now though.
Look its time to just boycott this company.
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I sometimes see them working behind the trucks to avoid the cameras inside.
World is getting super weird, we are racing to the bottom.