Raspberry Pi hired an ex-cop and people are pissed(buzzfeednews.com)
buzzfeednews.com
Raspberry Pi hired an ex-cop and people are pissed
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/chrisstokelwalker/raspberry-pi-hired-ex-cop-mastodon-controversy
51 comments
The bigger problem I think is that they acted as if
> "Folks I'm not exactly a police supporter but this is a terrible way to intro Tony. You've basically written this guy specialises in surveillance and now he works with our computers, yay!"
was not an acceptable response to that. Some people don't like surveillance, not that surprising, but if you end up with "oops, wrong audience for this" post you don't have to blow it up as they did.
> "Folks I'm not exactly a police supporter but this is a terrible way to intro Tony. You've basically written this guy specialises in surveillance and now he works with our computers, yay!"
was not an acceptable response to that. Some people don't like surveillance, not that surprising, but if you end up with "oops, wrong audience for this" post you don't have to blow it up as they did.
So I found the original thread (https://raspberrypi.social/@Raspberry_Pi/109477121398103132), and I must say these irreverent responses from the Raspberry Pi account are raising a smile from me, it's refreshing to see someone not taking those po-faced complainer types seriously.
It's refreshing that people respectfully voice their concerns and the company treats them like shit in response, going so far as to reply condescendingly and block them? That's not refreshing, that's just shitty behaviour and unacceptable in the context of any community.
Definitely, it just makes me respect the Raspberry Pi team even more than I did already. Sticking up for their new colleague, and shutting down all those pompous whiners with ego-puncturing flippancy. I love to see it.
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The problem isn't whether or not he caught dodgy people. The problem is that in the process "I bet" he spied on a lot of people who were not dodgy, who had the right to have their privacy respected.
He worked on the technical support for targeted surveillance of serious organised crime and terror threats. So if you look at this realistically, no, his kit wouldn't have been used to spy on people who weren't at least suspected of being dodgy.
> This is incredibly cool from a maker perspective.
Sophisticated IEDs and weaponized drones are incredibly cool from a maker perspective, too. That doesn't make celebrating them any less reprehensible.
I'm glad you come from a place of sufficient privilege to trust cops to keep you safe. Not all of us are so fortunate.
Sophisticated IEDs and weaponized drones are incredibly cool from a maker perspective, too. That doesn't make celebrating them any less reprehensible.
I'm glad you come from a place of sufficient privilege to trust cops to keep you safe. Not all of us are so fortunate.
You will hopefully be relieved to learn that TSOs specialise in covert evidence-gathering technologies for serious crime investigations, and are not making machines to blow your legs off or shoot your face in.
They're part of the teams taking down human trafficking rings, violent gangs involved in the drugs trade, terrorist cells, and suchlike. The kind of high impact police work that helps make vulnerable people's lives safer.
They're part of the teams taking down human trafficking rings, violent gangs involved in the drugs trade, terrorist cells, and suchlike. The kind of high impact police work that helps make vulnerable people's lives safer.
> They're part of the teams taking down human trafficking rings, violent gangs involved in the drugs trade, terrorist cells, and suchlike.
They're part of the teams surveilling and even outright harassing civilians on mere suspicion of tangential connection to crime - the kind of polie work that makes people's lives vulnerable in the first place.
It shouldn't be surprising that not everyone shares your enthusiasm for the state's goons, no matter how "cool" their goonery-enabling gadgets might be.
They're part of the teams surveilling and even outright harassing civilians on mere suspicion of tangential connection to crime - the kind of polie work that makes people's lives vulnerable in the first place.
It shouldn't be surprising that not everyone shares your enthusiasm for the state's goons, no matter how "cool" their goonery-enabling gadgets might be.
Right - in fact UK police specifically have engaged in seriously unethical behaviour: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/oct/28/secrets-and-...
That is a very ignorant opinion to be flaunting with such confidence.
It's the precise opposite of an ignorant opinion; it's in fact rather well-informed from myself being a former employee of a law enforcement agency. You can parrot copaganda pamphlets all you like, but the idea that police are always the good guys and only spy on the public for the public's good is dangerously naive.
Really, which country? Presumably not the UK.
The power dynamics involved are universal - and as has been linked elsewhere in this thread, the UK is no exception.
So, not the UK then. Thought as much.
Whatever issue you have with the law enforcement people you apparently worked alongside for a while, please refrain from blindly transferring this onto UK police personnel whose work you have zero insight into.
Whatever issue you have with the law enforcement people you apparently worked alongside for a while, please refrain from blindly transferring this onto UK police personnel whose work you have zero insight into.
> So, not the UK then.
The power dynamics involved are universal - and as has been linked elsewhere in this thread, the UK is no exception.
> please refrain from blindly transferring this onto UK police personnel
There's nothing "blind" about it - because again, the power dynamics are universal, and has has been linked elsewhere in this thread, the UK is no exception.
Cops are cops. They are definitionally given special privileges and powers over the general population, and the temptation to abuse those special privileges and powers doesn't magically go away just because you choose to plug your ears and pretend they have your best interests at heart. There's a reason why the phrase "All Cops Are Bastards" originated in the UK of all places.
The power dynamics involved are universal - and as has been linked elsewhere in this thread, the UK is no exception.
> please refrain from blindly transferring this onto UK police personnel
There's nothing "blind" about it - because again, the power dynamics are universal, and has has been linked elsewhere in this thread, the UK is no exception.
Cops are cops. They are definitionally given special privileges and powers over the general population, and the temptation to abuse those special privileges and powers doesn't magically go away just because you choose to plug your ears and pretend they have your best interests at heart. There's a reason why the phrase "All Cops Are Bastards" originated in the UK of all places.
I think it's interesting how many people on the Mastodon thread are saying "I think it was fine for Raspberry Pi to hire an ex-cop, but they should have been more polite to the people who are angry at them for hiring an ex-cop."
I think it's essentially a disagreement about where the Overton window is. Raspberry Pi seems to think "harassing us because our new employee is an ex-cop is outside the Overton window" so they're dismissing/blocking people who are doing it. Whereas a lot of people in the Mastodon thread seem to think it's within the Overton window, so they're angry that Raspberry Pi isn't engaging with it seriously.
(Another aspect is that corporate social media accounts are held to a higher standard than randos.)
I think it's essentially a disagreement about where the Overton window is. Raspberry Pi seems to think "harassing us because our new employee is an ex-cop is outside the Overton window" so they're dismissing/blocking people who are doing it. Whereas a lot of people in the Mastodon thread seem to think it's within the Overton window, so they're angry that Raspberry Pi isn't engaging with it seriously.
(Another aspect is that corporate social media accounts are held to a higher standard than randos.)
They received abuse so they blocked the perpetrators. Well done Raspberry Pi.
Lol, did not expect the next stage would be "Raspberry Pi claims culture-war conspiracy". No folks, people can actually hold opinions and criticize you without coordinating that. And most people's primary problem is with your reaction to initial criticism anyways, not with you hiring the guy...
There is absolutely nothing wrong or controversial about Raspberry Pi's hiring decision.
The reactions to the announcement have been so absurd and offensive (what you call 'criticism') that they could only respond the way they did or just try to ignore. IMHO taking the 'criticism' seriously would have been nothing more than feeding the trolls.
At the moment the Raspberry Pi's team must be scratching their heads in disbelief.
The reactions to the announcement have been so absurd and offensive (what you call 'criticism') that they could only respond the way they did or just try to ignore. IMHO taking the 'criticism' seriously would have been nothing more than feeding the trolls.
At the moment the Raspberry Pi's team must be scratching their heads in disbelief.
That "He learned to love RPi while using it to build surveillance tools" doesn't go over well with a good chunk of a technical audience as the "origin story" is really not surprising? The first few responses were criticizing just that - and then they blew it up by being pissy about that and blocking people saying that. (There also seems to be some UK-specific hangups around misbehavior of surveillance cops, but my general impression is that most people who think they are handling this incredibly badly don't really mind that they hired the guy, but rather how they presented it and especially the follow-up responses to mild criticism. Even just ignoring them would've been loads better than what they did)
> doesn't go over well with a good chunk of a technical audience
That's not true. You're generalising based on a minority of noisy idiots who should be ignored. Blocking them to increase the SNR is eminently sensible.
That's not true. You're generalising based on a minority of noisy idiots who should be ignored. Blocking them to increase the SNR is eminently sensible.
I'm sure that's why surveillance is such a popular topic on HN too then? Because a few noisy idiots conspire to give posts hundreds of upvotes to hide the fact that normal people love cop surveillance tools?
And again, this is at least as much about how they choose to respond by now than about the people who dislike the original post.
And again, this is at least as much about how they choose to respond by now than about the people who dislike the original post.
I am hoping that people can make the difference between large scale blanket state surveillance and police investigating organised crime...
Sure there is, not like there isn't misconduct and thus negative associations with the latter too though. But regardless if you label the group that thinks so "a chunk of people" or "some noisy idiots", them turning up is still different from them conspiring to dog-pile you, which RPi are now claiming. And belittling them instead of ignoring them breaks your "we're a nice and open community brand" image you've been trying to sell even for many of those that are not in the group, and as I said I think it's primarily the consequence of that what they are seeing now. One would think that's Social Media management 101 by now... (So if you blew that up over just a "some noisy idiots" you've mishandled it even worse?)
Being nice and open does not imply having to take abuse with a smile, does it? And I am calling a cat a cat with my previous choice of words.
Again, there is nothing wrong with their new hire or the way he was introduced. As I already wrote, there is nothing wrong or underhand about surveillance in organised crime investigations. So from there it was abuse by a noisy minority. 'Abuse' is the appropriate word because it's effectively accusing that person and asking for his sacking.
Have a nice evening!
Edit: And yes, without those idiots (they are the problem) we would not be having this conversation, which would have been so much better but I think it's important to speak up in support of Raspberry Pi and their team.
Again, there is nothing wrong with their new hire or the way he was introduced. As I already wrote, there is nothing wrong or underhand about surveillance in organised crime investigations. So from there it was abuse by a noisy minority. 'Abuse' is the appropriate word because it's effectively accusing that person and asking for his sacking.
Have a nice evening!
Edit: And yes, without those idiots (they are the problem) we would not be having this conversation, which would have been so much better but I think it's important to speak up in support of Raspberry Pi and their team.
From what I've seen, this was the "abuse" that really kicked it off (as in, their response to it was what was spread widely as "lol wtf are they doing"): "Folks I'm not exactly a police supporter but this is a terrible way to intro Tony. You've basically written this guy specialises in surveillance and now he works with our computers, yay!"
Sorry, that's not abuse. If they'd not responded negatively and with blocks to stuff that milquetoast we'd probably not be having this conversation now.
Sorry, that's not abuse. If they'd not responded negatively and with blocks to stuff that milquetoast we'd probably not be having this conversation now.
> Being nice and open does not imply having to take abuse with a smile, does it?
That cuts both ways: the various members of the community who are victims of police surveillance (let alone other abuses) are under no obligation to take with a smile an overt manifestation of that abuse.
> As I already wrote, there is nothing wrong or underhand about surveillance in organised crime investigations.
What makes you so confident that the entirety of the new hire's surveillance work was against organized criminals?
That cuts both ways: the various members of the community who are victims of police surveillance (let alone other abuses) are under no obligation to take with a smile an overt manifestation of that abuse.
> As I already wrote, there is nothing wrong or underhand about surveillance in organised crime investigations.
What makes you so confident that the entirety of the new hire's surveillance work was against organized criminals?
I didn't know that Raspberry Pi was popular among organised crime... because that's the 'police surveillance' we're talking about.
I am very disappointed by HN members on this one... really unsavoury.
I am very disappointed by HN members on this one... really unsavoury.
> I didn't know that Raspberry Pi was popular among organised crime
You didn't answer my question: why are you so confident that such surveillance was/is strictly confined to organized criminals?
> I am very disappointed by HN members on this one... really unsavoury.
The feeling is mutual. People playing defense for literal government surveillance and the officers perpetrating it does the name "Hacker News" a rather tragic disservice.
You didn't answer my question: why are you so confident that such surveillance was/is strictly confined to organized criminals?
> I am very disappointed by HN members on this one... really unsavoury.
The feeling is mutual. People playing defense for literal government surveillance and the officers perpetrating it does the name "Hacker News" a rather tragic disservice.
> Being nice and open does not imply having to take abuse with a smile, does it?
You've found and then blasted right past the point.
The controversy is largely coming from customers receiving abuse from the company.
Because a few people got angry, does that mean the entire customer base now has to endure abuse from the company and be happy about it?
In general, in today's society, it is considered wholly unacceptable for a company to dish abuse onto customers.
And yes, companies are expected to take abuse with a smile. Whether that's good or bad is a different discussion, but the expectation is that the company handle abuse gracefully. Ignoring it and not engaging at all is typically the safest way.
How would you react if one of Microsoft or Apple's pr drones came around to insult you personally? These companies receive orders of magnitude more abuse in a day than rpi would in a year, but their pr people don't act like this.
The Rpi team did something bad. They mistreated customers, then doubled down instead of acknowledging or apologizing. They're trying to spin it as some wild conspiracy instead of accepting that one pr person made a shitty call in handling angry customers.
You've found and then blasted right past the point.
The controversy is largely coming from customers receiving abuse from the company.
Because a few people got angry, does that mean the entire customer base now has to endure abuse from the company and be happy about it?
In general, in today's society, it is considered wholly unacceptable for a company to dish abuse onto customers.
And yes, companies are expected to take abuse with a smile. Whether that's good or bad is a different discussion, but the expectation is that the company handle abuse gracefully. Ignoring it and not engaging at all is typically the safest way.
How would you react if one of Microsoft or Apple's pr drones came around to insult you personally? These companies receive orders of magnitude more abuse in a day than rpi would in a year, but their pr people don't act like this.
The Rpi team did something bad. They mistreated customers, then doubled down instead of acknowledging or apologizing. They're trying to spin it as some wild conspiracy instead of accepting that one pr person made a shitty call in handling angry customers.
> Because a few people got angry, does that mean the entire customer base now has to endure abuse from the company and be happy about it?
A few angry neurodivergent-poly-queer types on Mastodon throwing ACAB tantrums does not constitute their entire customer base, or even a barely significant fraction of it.
The Raspberry Pi folks made the right call here. There's no point engaging seriously with these people, they'll just drain your energy with even more of their bullshit.
A few angry neurodivergent-poly-queer types on Mastodon throwing ACAB tantrums does not constitute their entire customer base, or even a barely significant fraction of it.
The Raspberry Pi folks made the right call here. There's no point engaging seriously with these people, they'll just drain your energy with even more of their bullshit.
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> Liz Upton, Raspberry Pi’s cofounder and chief marketing officer, told BuzzFeed she believes that much of the issue stems not from the hiring of the former police officer who admitted to using Raspberry Pis for covert surveillance, but instead from a picture the account posted to Mastodon a day earlier showing pigs in blankets. “We didn’t put a content warning on it, because we don’t put a content warning on meat,” Upton said. “There were quite a few people who tried to start dogpiling on that.”
That is so drastically out of touch with the situation it's absurd.
Some real tone deaf behaviour
The CMO’s conspiracy theorizing is comically out of touch:
> I think what we’re looking at is a dogpile that’s being organized somewhere. There’s obviously a Discord or a forum somewhere. I don’t think this is organic […] I think there are people out there intent on perpetuating a culture war on Mastodon. And I’m not sure their motives are necessarily benign.
They really don’t understand how bad it looks to celebrate police surveillance? Of course there’s organic backlash to that. We must live in different worlds.
> I think what we’re looking at is a dogpile that’s being organized somewhere. There’s obviously a Discord or a forum somewhere. I don’t think this is organic […] I think there are people out there intent on perpetuating a culture war on Mastodon. And I’m not sure their motives are necessarily benign.
They really don’t understand how bad it looks to celebrate police surveillance? Of course there’s organic backlash to that. We must live in different worlds.
It's so funny to me that people keep expecting capitalist enterprises to not act in their best interest. Police forces with million-dollar budgets buy raspberry pis too, and the company is going to do whatever it takes to get that sweet government money, no matter who it alienates.
tangentially I thought Mastodon's first "main character" was Wil Wheaton back in 2018
Sounds like the Raspberry Pi has just become the new Raspberry Sigh.
Actual title: "Why The Computer Company Raspberry Pi’s New Hire Caused A Social Media Firestorm"
The submitted title is based on the page title, which is different from the headline.
My apologies. You're right.
I'll have you know the title was accurate at the time of submission.
My apologies. You're right. I posted from mobile and I couldn't see the title.
Actual title: "Raspberry Pi Hired An Ex-Cop And People Are Pissed"
Actual title: "Raspberry Pi Hired An Ex-Cop And People Are Pissed"
I think it's worth reviewing this summary of recent event which captures it all in an easy way to understand what has happened -- without PR slant or rhetorical speculation:
https://eiara.nz/posts/2022/Dec/09/a-case-study-on-raspberry...
https://eiara.nz/posts/2022/Dec/09/a-case-study-on-raspberry...
> This public hashtag is a way for administrators to co-ordinate with each other in an attempt to reduce harm to their users
> as administrators and moderators seeking to ensure safety for their users are able to remove tens of thousands of their users in a few clicks
Is this author saying that the Raspberry Pi social media coordinator replying with things like "chill" and "bye bye" to rude commenters and then blocking is somehow harming them and threatening their safety? If so, the hyperbole here is off the charts!
How fragile these people must be. Snowstorm in a teacup.
> as administrators and moderators seeking to ensure safety for their users are able to remove tens of thousands of their users in a few clicks
Is this author saying that the Raspberry Pi social media coordinator replying with things like "chill" and "bye bye" to rude commenters and then blocking is somehow harming them and threatening their safety? If so, the hyperbole here is off the charts!
How fragile these people must be. Snowstorm in a teacup.
This piece is crazy.
Is the author really claiming that (1) there is a global blocklist for mastodon and (2) one can get on that blocklist forbeing rude to users (without any actual hate speech or any of the -isms)?
if so, I can see community fragmenting in million little areas soon.
if so, I can see community fragmenting in million little areas soon.
No, they're not.
The #FediBlock hashtag can be used by anyone - it's literally just a hashtag - and it's up to folks (mainly admins) monitoring that hashtag to investigate and (if it appears to be necessary) take action.
There are no global blocklists, and even the concept of shared blocklists isn't accepted by many, although there are quite a few Known Bad instances that a lot of admins block.
The #FediBlock hashtag can be used by anyone - it's literally just a hashtag - and it's up to folks (mainly admins) monitoring that hashtag to investigate and (if it appears to be necessary) take action.
There are no global blocklists, and even the concept of shared blocklists isn't accepted by many, although there are quite a few Known Bad instances that a lot of admins block.
People are really complaining about this? This is incredibly cool from a maker perspective. And I bet he caught a load of very dodgy people with his kit too. This guy sounds awesome, what a splendid hire.