Hertz increased its fleet of EV rental cars – then, profits exploded(thecooldown.com)
thecooldown.com
Hertz increased its fleet of EV rental cars – then, profits exploded
https://www.thecooldown.com/green-business/hertz-evs-cars-electric-vehicles-rental/
107 comments
Wow! That’s obscene considering they have chargers at the lot to recharge the vehicles and the power costs them almost nothing.
The perk should be able to return it on empty, as they can plug them right in at arrival. If Hertz wants to be able to turn the vehicles faster, they can install fast DC chargers at their facilities.
The perk should be able to return it on empty, as they can plug them right in at arrival. If Hertz wants to be able to turn the vehicles faster, they can install fast DC chargers at their facilities.
Rentals sometimes charge 10 dollars a gallon if you return it below where you got it.
It's not because they then go to a gas station to refill it. They just rent the car to the next customer with only 3/4 of a tank and hope that second customer returns it full.
It's not because they then go to a gas station to refill it. They just rent the car to the next customer with only 3/4 of a tank and hope that second customer returns it full.
I’m 100% in the EV train, but this article is weird.
It says they ordered a ton of EVs, and that EVs have lower cost of maintenance, awesome - but it provides no evidence that EV maintenance costs actually contributed to the improvements here?
The statements they have from Hertz say “we made $$$$ from demand coming back to rent cars” and “we spent that $$$$ on buying EVs”.
The quotes and facts in the article are not aligned with the point made in the title
It says they ordered a ton of EVs, and that EVs have lower cost of maintenance, awesome - but it provides no evidence that EV maintenance costs actually contributed to the improvements here?
The statements they have from Hertz say “we made $$$$ from demand coming back to rent cars” and “we spent that $$$$ on buying EVs”.
The quotes and facts in the article are not aligned with the point made in the title
I think a large majority of these EV analyses suffer from short-term biases as well. It will be interesting to see if the cost of maintenance remains super low when these vehicles need battery replacements.
Yeah good point.
I always imagined it as similar to transmission replacement - ie. If they can make the battery pack last as long as a median transmission, then it’ll be after the overall vehicles useful life before it comes time to replace.
We will see. We just swapped the battery on ours, price if it hadn’t been done on warranty was $50K, on a car we paid $35K for.. but then again, cost to us was zero.
I always imagined it as similar to transmission replacement - ie. If they can make the battery pack last as long as a median transmission, then it’ll be after the overall vehicles useful life before it comes time to replace.
We will see. We just swapped the battery on ours, price if it hadn’t been done on warranty was $50K, on a car we paid $35K for.. but then again, cost to us was zero.
It will be interesting to see if the cost of maintenance remains super low when these vehicles need battery replacements.
Just like what happens to the cost of maintenance when fossil fuel vehicles need engine and transmission replacements.
Anything is possible but there is no indication that a battery replacement will be a typical or expected repair during the normal lifetime of an EV. An 8 year, 100,000 mile warranty on the battery pack is quickly becoming the norm.
Just like what happens to the cost of maintenance when fossil fuel vehicles need engine and transmission replacements.
Anything is possible but there is no indication that a battery replacement will be a typical or expected repair during the normal lifetime of an EV. An 8 year, 100,000 mile warranty on the battery pack is quickly becoming the norm.
Isn’t the real difference the relative cost of repair? The post above yours at the time of this comment cites that battery replacement costs more than that of a new vehicle. It would be hard to find that in an ICE car (assuming it’s not an exotic or rare model).
It would be hard to find that in an ICE car (assuming it’s not an exotic or rare model).
The cost to replace an ICE engine often exceeds the value of the car. In which case, the car is typically junked/sold for parts/salvaged.
The cost to replace an ICE engine often exceeds the value of the car. In which case, the car is typically junked/sold for parts/salvaged.
Possibly the value of the car at the time of replacement, but not the value of the car when new. The other comment indicating it was 1.3x the cost of their EV when new.
Possibly the value of the car at the time of replacement, but not the value of the car when new.
Does it really matter?
Once the cost exceeds the replacement value of the car, only a fool would pay the money to do the work.
Does it really matter?
Once the cost exceeds the replacement value of the car, only a fool would pay the money to do the work.
Absolutely. By orders of magnitude. This is one of those HN comments that comes across as in a bubble or tone deaf.
There’s a difference in the utility and investment value. Lots of people are in the position where they can’t afford a $50k EV repair to keep a car roadworthy or $35k for a new car. Many more can stomach a $5k ICE repair. It may be the difference between getting to work and not for someone who can’t afford a new car. They will still get much more utility out of it even if it’s not worth it on paper.
Not everyone is in a position where they can just decide to buy a new car because it’s the prudent financial decision.
There’s a difference in the utility and investment value. Lots of people are in the position where they can’t afford a $50k EV repair to keep a car roadworthy or $35k for a new car. Many more can stomach a $5k ICE repair. It may be the difference between getting to work and not for someone who can’t afford a new car. They will still get much more utility out of it even if it’s not worth it on paper.
Not everyone is in a position where they can just decide to buy a new car because it’s the prudent financial decision.
Not everyone is in a position where they can just decide to buy a new car because it’s the prudent financial decision.
Regardless of your position --- salvage the old car (puts some money in your pocket) and replace it (with a similar used one if necessary) for *less* than the cost of the repairs to the old one. Take your significant other to dinner with the money you just avoided wasting on your broken old heap.
Why would a reasonable person *ever* spend more on repairs than the money required to just replace the broken car with one that works? Irrational, sentimental reasons perhaps?
Why spend $6K on repairs if you can buy a similar working car for only $5K? Why make your net "position" $1K worse with flawed logic?
What part of this sounds "tone deaf" to you?
Regardless of your position --- salvage the old car (puts some money in your pocket) and replace it (with a similar used one if necessary) for *less* than the cost of the repairs to the old one. Take your significant other to dinner with the money you just avoided wasting on your broken old heap.
Why would a reasonable person *ever* spend more on repairs than the money required to just replace the broken car with one that works? Irrational, sentimental reasons perhaps?
Why spend $6K on repairs if you can buy a similar working car for only $5K? Why make your net "position" $1K worse with flawed logic?
What part of this sounds "tone deaf" to you?
>salvage the old car (puts some money in your pocket) and replace it (with a similar used one if necessary) for less* than the cost of the repairs to the old one.*
I mean, sure, if that's an option. But there's always risk in swapping out one used car for another. If I can only swing $2.5k, I'd rather put it in the vehicle that I've had for 10 years and know the maintenance background on that roll the dice with, as you say, another "old heap."
It's not about being sentimental or irrational. If you're in the situation where you have to weigh these decisions, you tend to have limited options. It's not likely one of them is "trade in my old heap for something great and reliable." In these situations, taking money that could go to your car and instead go out to dinner would be the irrational choice.
>Why spend $6K on repairs if you can buy a similar working car for only $5K? Why make your net "position" $1K worse with flawed logic?
I don't think it's flawed. I can reduce the uncertainty on my utility a lot more with $6k on my own vehicle than I can on a $5k random car. When you get to that low of a price, most cars are going to have maintenance issues. There's nothing guaranteeing that I spend $5k on something else to only have drivetrain (or other major) issues six months down the road.
I mean, sure, if that's an option. But there's always risk in swapping out one used car for another. If I can only swing $2.5k, I'd rather put it in the vehicle that I've had for 10 years and know the maintenance background on that roll the dice with, as you say, another "old heap."
It's not about being sentimental or irrational. If you're in the situation where you have to weigh these decisions, you tend to have limited options. It's not likely one of them is "trade in my old heap for something great and reliable." In these situations, taking money that could go to your car and instead go out to dinner would be the irrational choice.
>Why spend $6K on repairs if you can buy a similar working car for only $5K? Why make your net "position" $1K worse with flawed logic?
I don't think it's flawed. I can reduce the uncertainty on my utility a lot more with $6k on my own vehicle than I can on a $5k random car. When you get to that low of a price, most cars are going to have maintenance issues. There's nothing guaranteeing that I spend $5k on something else to only have drivetrain (or other major) issues six months down the road.
A 5K used vehicle might need a similar 6k repair at some nearby point.
But a 6k repair to get a new engine/transmission is almost a new car (utility wise) - you know that for the next 100k miles you're probably set w.r.t. drivetrain.
It makes sense to me?
But a 6k repair to get a new engine/transmission is almost a new car (utility wise) - you know that for the next 100k miles you're probably set w.r.t. drivetrain.
It makes sense to me?
By the time most cars need a replacement engine and transmission, the only thing available is likely to be used/salvaged or rebuilt. New ones are often out of production.
And you certainly can't buy a whole new drivetrain and get it installed for $6k. The only people who attempt this are those who can do the work themselves.
And you certainly can't buy a whole new drivetrain and get it installed for $6k. The only people who attempt this are those who can do the work themselves.
>By the time most cars need a replacement engine and transmission, the only thing available is likely to be used/salvaged or rebuilt.
There are plenty of engines that go back 30+ years that can still be bought brand new. You're probably right about the "whole new drivetrain" not being able to be installed for under $6k though (depending on what you define as a whole drivetrain). But even a rebuilt engine can fairly easily last another 100k miles, depending on the vehicle and the quality of the rebuild.
There are plenty of engines that go back 30+ years that can still be bought brand new. You're probably right about the "whole new drivetrain" not being able to be installed for under $6k though (depending on what you define as a whole drivetrain). But even a rebuilt engine can fairly easily last another 100k miles, depending on the vehicle and the quality of the rebuild.
Those are rentals, so they run quite a few more charging cycles than private owned cars. On the other hand, rental companies write there cars off, and sell them early enough to maintain an up tondate fleet. So maybe batteries don't need replacement during the rental live, and companies don't care that much about resell value since the car is written off the books anyway.
That is not how write-offs work. It is strictly better for the company to sell the vehicles for their fair market value than to write them down to below market value and sell them at that lower value. (You would not write them off entirely - that would be absurd.)
Writing something down/off means that you're asserting the asset has less/no economic value left, and you can basically treat the delta between its book value and the written down value as an expense for taxation purposes. But if you e.g. write off a car from its real value of $10k to $0, it'll reduce your corporate taxes by $3k, and means you can't rent the car or sell it. So why write it off, rather than sell it for $10k? $10k > $3k.
Writing something down/off means that you're asserting the asset has less/no economic value left, and you can basically treat the delta between its book value and the written down value as an expense for taxation purposes. But if you e.g. write off a car from its real value of $10k to $0, it'll reduce your corporate taxes by $3k, and means you can't rent the car or sell it. So why write it off, rather than sell it for $10k? $10k > $3k.
There is a difference between book value of an asset, which is a symbolic 1 $ after it is completely written off, and the price you get for said asset on sale to the open market. Nobody forces you to sell, e.g., a 20 year old CNC machine for one dollar...
Edit: Just realized, the correct term is depreciation... That's what you get after a long day, and word by word translating from German to English...
Edit: Just realized, the correct term is depreciation... That's what you get after a long day, and word by word translating from German to English...
It's unlikely a company like Hertz would ever own the vehicle that long. They're selling these cars way before a battery replacement, unless it's still in the warranty range. I don't know the resale on an EV from a rental fleet. Do we have any data on this yet?
We already know the battery lifetime as many many electrical vehicles have reached hundreds of thousand of km...
Anyway I don't think that Hertz really care as they are not going to keep the cars for that long.
Is this really due to Hertz's electrification efforts, or just a broader trend (ie. lockdowns ending leading to more car rental use)? If we look at their competitor, we see that their profits rose even more (in percentage terms)[1]. Sure, being "50-60% cheaper to maintain" is nothing to sneeze at, but without analysis into how much that weighs against other factors (eg. depreciation, because electric cars are more expensive) making such bold claims is simply irresponsible.
[1] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/HTZ/hertz-global-h...
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/CAR/avis-budget/eb...
[1] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/HTZ/hertz-global-h...
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/CAR/avis-budget/eb...
I'm also thinking about depreciation. I suspect most people that want an electric car are going to buy new, especially considering the tax credits. Are they going to be able to successfully offload 3-year old, high-mileage rental electric cars?
My country has tax credits for used EVs and PHEVs. They're lower than for new vehicles but they exist.
Not many details on what components failed or how maintenance is better.
I don’t doubt the claims but this feels like greenwashing PR.
I don’t doubt the claims but this feels like greenwashing PR.
It's widely known that maintenance costs way less on EVs than on gas-powered cars. There are plenty of data points everywhere to confirm this. EVs are much simpler with way fewer moving parts and fluids to worry about.
It is NOT clear this is true for the first 10,20 or 50K miles though, and that's about as long as a rental company owns the car, so attributing financial gains from EV vs. ICE seems spurious at best.
If you own a large fleet of vehicles, and especially with the way people treat cars that aren't theirs, some non-trivial percentage of those cars are going to need service that goes beyond mere fluid replacement, even within the first few ten thousand miles. This may not apply to the modal rental car, but it will apply to some of them, enough to bring the average up non-trivially.
I'd be interested in seeing how this applies to consumers/owners. From what I've seen, the items that tend to cost more in maintenance for EVs are things like the battery; ones that last a long-ish time but are extremely expensive to fix/replace when they go. Given that rental companies (and people that lease) likely won't have the cars long enough to reach that point, the overall maintenance cost is lower for them. Does this hold true when you start to consider people that own/use the cars for 10+ years?
Does this hold true when you start to consider people that own/use the cars for 10+ years?
According to Tesla, their battery packs typically exhibit less than 10% degradation after 150K miles.
According to Tesla, their battery packs typically exhibit less than 10% degradation after 150K miles.
Most EVs won't ever have their batteries replaced; it simply won't be necessary. This is a perennial concern about EVs that simply isn't a big deal in practice, and EVs have been around long enough to have data points here.
Most people don't own and use cars for nearly long enough to fully wear out a battery pack on an EV that they've bought new.
Most people don't own and use cars for nearly long enough to fully wear out a battery pack on an EV that they've bought new.
>Most people don't own and use cars for nearly long enough to fully wear out a battery pack
The average car age in the US is over 12 years. I can see why it’s much less with the current EV owners as early adopters tend to…well, adopt the next technology earlier. But wouldn’t this also imply the environmental impacts are lessened by continual churn in manufacturing?
The average car age in the US is over 12 years. I can see why it’s much less with the current EV owners as early adopters tend to…well, adopt the next technology earlier. But wouldn’t this also imply the environmental impacts are lessened by continual churn in manufacturing?
[deleted]
> moving parts and fluids
That's where most of the problems come from.
A lot of mechanics are probably not ready to deal with the issues EVs face, though.
That's where most of the problems come from.
A lot of mechanics are probably not ready to deal with the issues EVs face, though.
Most of the problems in any moving vehicle come from stuff close to the ground, tires, suspension, steering. This is true for everything from battery powered forklifts to semi trucks.
Leaks start showing up in old age and the involved parts don't typically wear out unless you ignore leaks and habitually run some subsystem low on its requisite fluid or run it dry. There are some exceptions for piss poor engineering but generally the prior sentence holds.
Leaks start showing up in old age and the involved parts don't typically wear out unless you ignore leaks and habitually run some subsystem low on its requisite fluid or run it dry. There are some exceptions for piss poor engineering but generally the prior sentence holds.
>Most of the problems in any moving vehicle come from stuff close to the ground
Is this based on your intuition or is there more to it? The DoT tracks automobile issues and it looks like the top ones are engine, engine cooling, other power train, air bags, and brakes. [1]
[1] https://www.nhtsa.gov/data
Is this based on your intuition or is there more to it? The DoT tracks automobile issues and it looks like the top ones are engine, engine cooling, other power train, air bags, and brakes. [1]
[1] https://www.nhtsa.gov/data
Good point.
I will say that a rental fleet is a great "brutality test" for EVs, though. Rental cars age quickly.
I will say that a rental fleet is a great "brutality test" for EVs, though. Rental cars age quickly.
That said, a lot of EV have transmission and more fluids due to the need to improve temperature control. Until someone solves the battery chemistry problem again.
That said, a lot of EV have transmission and more fluids due to the need to improve temperature control.
Most EV's don't even have a transmission. And any battery cooling fluids are often sealed up inside the battery pack.
Some EVs have air cooled battery packs, Nissan Leaf for example.
If anything, you must be thinking about hybrids.
Most EV's don't even have a transmission. And any battery cooling fluids are often sealed up inside the battery pack.
Some EVs have air cooled battery packs, Nissan Leaf for example.
If anything, you must be thinking about hybrids.
No, Porsche added gears for better efficiency. Other manufactures talked about similar ideas since.
Battery cooling I'm not sure though, it's still circulating right ? which would mean a pump of some sort.
Anyway things are not as vanilla as they used to be in the early days, I hope that trend doesn't keep up.
Battery cooling I'm not sure though, it's still circulating right ? which would mean a pump of some sort.
Anyway things are not as vanilla as they used to be in the early days, I hope that trend doesn't keep up.
No, Porsche added gears for better efficiency.
Only applicable at autobahn speeds --- which explains why Porsche is the only manufacturer thus far to see a need for this.
I seriously doubt this will become typical --- simply due to cost reasons.
Battery cooling I'm not sure though, it's still circulating right
No, natural thermal convention in most cases.
Only applicable at autobahn speeds --- which explains why Porsche is the only manufacturer thus far to see a need for this.
I seriously doubt this will become typical --- simply due to cost reasons.
Battery cooling I'm not sure though, it's still circulating right
No, natural thermal convention in most cases.
Oh ok the liquid is passively cooled ? what the "heatsink" here ? the lower surface of the pack ?
the lower surface of the pack ?
Yes. In some cases, the battery pack also serves as a structural component.
https://electrek.co/2021/01/19/tesla-structural-battery-pack...
Yes. In some cases, the battery pack also serves as a structural component.
https://electrek.co/2021/01/19/tesla-structural-battery-pack...
Yeah, I guess we all saw the structural battery annoucement.
I think it remains to be seen, as batteries wear out. That could take years.
That may be true, but from the perspective of a company like Hertz they are covered by the standard 8 year warranties offered by most EV manufacturers because they do not keep cars that long anyway.
Idk how true this is, but I keep hearing that car batteries have gotten so good they are likely to outlive the car.
Anyways, these are rentals, which are usually sold after around 1 year/30,000-40,000 miles. So it's irrelevant for a rental car company if batteries last longer than that.
Anyways, these are rentals, which are usually sold after around 1 year/30,000-40,000 miles. So it's irrelevant for a rental car company if batteries last longer than that.
do batteries wear out in the lifetime of a rental car? I would think the batteries have a lifetime of at least 10 years whereas a rental agency only keeps the car for <4 years.
[deleted]
How long do rental places keep cars?
There likely is greenwashing. The percentage of their fleet consisting of EVs is likely small. Most modern ICE vehicles only need service every 10K miles on their ICE components. This may amount to $1000 for the time rental companies are operating a particular vehicle, a fraction of the overall revenue.
Alternatively, how are rental companies charging returned EVs? The time spent sitting at a charger should be considered as lost revenue when an EV comes back empty.
Alternatively, how are rental companies charging returned EVs? The time spent sitting at a charger should be considered as lost revenue when an EV comes back empty.
According to the OP, Hertz has found that EVs are "between 50-60% cheaper to maintain than gasoline-powered cars."
That's a huge difference. It means that the cost of using an ICE vehicle over time is 2x greater.
If the figure is anywhere near accurate, ICE vehicles are toast.
That's a huge difference. It means that the cost of using an ICE vehicle over time is 2x greater.
If the figure is anywhere near accurate, ICE vehicles are toast.
While those numbers are extremely encouraging, the fact that this is on a new fleet is to be kept in mind.
What we know now is that they 50-60% cheaper to maintain during the first couple of years.
Let's hope that they are also 50-60% cheaper to maintain over their whole lifetime, but this might not be as assured as one might think due to batteries which are a huge cost.
What we know now is that they 50-60% cheaper to maintain during the first couple of years.
Let's hope that they are also 50-60% cheaper to maintain over their whole lifetime, but this might not be as assured as one might think due to batteries which are a huge cost.
The best part about exponential curves:
By the time the battery needs to be replaced batteries will be 90% cheaper.
By the time the battery needs to be replaced batteries will be 90% cheaper.
This seems very optimistic.
That is my preferred outlook yes :)
But it is backed by the data. Check out my other responses.
If you’re either “realistic” or pessimistic, what about the data and trends we already have doesn’t convince you of a giant cost reduction over the decade to produce batteries?
But it is backed by the data. Check out my other responses.
If you’re either “realistic” or pessimistic, what about the data and trends we already have doesn’t convince you of a giant cost reduction over the decade to produce batteries?
we'll see about that. It does not seem to be true for the Leaf batteries. These early 24kwh models have replacement batteries costing like 11-12k. Based on the rapid depreciation of the car's value(how many people want a car that can only go 80ish miles?) that battery pack price makes it a non starter for many people.
I am looking forward to third parties hopefully releasing their own packs. How would you warranty and insure them though? Also forget about third party packs for Tesla. They have so much integration that I doubt you'll see anything other than replacement packs from Tesla.
I am looking forward to third parties hopefully releasing their own packs. How would you warranty and insure them though? Also forget about third party packs for Tesla. They have so much integration that I doubt you'll see anything other than replacement packs from Tesla.
You can be sure the invisible hand of the free market will take care of that, and also of the "it's 4x cheaper to charge an EV than fill an ICE vehicle tank"
The technology is just too distributed already for any of that to happen.
Cost of charging an EV is bounded by the ability to add solar panels to your house (currently solar installations “pay for themselves” in 7 years in Seattle - not so sunny - high cost of labor location). The grid and “free market” have to be able to compete with that for cost.
Batteries like solar panels are very cheap to transport. They are flat, they can easily stack, there is no expiration period, and no temperature regulation needed to transport them. Batteries will be produced globally if the local markets start gouging.
Solar panels are already a great example of this cost reduction curve. So I’d say your outlook is very pessimistic and not backed by the data.
Cost of charging an EV is bounded by the ability to add solar panels to your house (currently solar installations “pay for themselves” in 7 years in Seattle - not so sunny - high cost of labor location). The grid and “free market” have to be able to compete with that for cost.
Batteries like solar panels are very cheap to transport. They are flat, they can easily stack, there is no expiration period, and no temperature regulation needed to transport them. Batteries will be produced globally if the local markets start gouging.
Solar panels are already a great example of this cost reduction curve. So I’d say your outlook is very pessimistic and not backed by the data.
You'll need a shit load of solar panels to charge a 60kw+ EV regularly, and a shit ton of sun.
A lot of people don't own/live in a house in Europe, let alone a house with enough land for a proper solar installation
If it was that easy every single house would already be self sufficient in electricity, if you can half charge a 60kw EV battery every day you could easily run everything in your house
I'm 100% pro solar but I think people just don't understand the numbers here, with my _yearly_ electricity consumption I can only charge a 75kwh tesla battery 25 times, that's once every 2 weeks.
> So I’d say your outlook is very pessimistic and not backed by the data.
Filling am EV at a public charger in Paris already costs more than filling your gas tank. https://www.frandroid.com/produits-android/automobile/voitur...
I'm telling, people who want to make money won't change overnight. Of course that's different than trickle charging your EV in your garage but a lot of people 1 don't own a garage, 2 won't have the proper installation for a quick charge and won't have that any time soon.
I know lots of people here are 100$k+ tech worker living in fancy and sunny places but the reality is that the vast majority of people can't even afford an EV right now, let alone a 20$K+ solar instal for the house they don't even have yet.
A lot of people don't own/live in a house in Europe, let alone a house with enough land for a proper solar installation
If it was that easy every single house would already be self sufficient in electricity, if you can half charge a 60kw EV battery every day you could easily run everything in your house
I'm 100% pro solar but I think people just don't understand the numbers here, with my _yearly_ electricity consumption I can only charge a 75kwh tesla battery 25 times, that's once every 2 weeks.
> So I’d say your outlook is very pessimistic and not backed by the data.
Filling am EV at a public charger in Paris already costs more than filling your gas tank. https://www.frandroid.com/produits-android/automobile/voitur...
I'm telling, people who want to make money won't change overnight. Of course that's different than trickle charging your EV in your garage but a lot of people 1 don't own a garage, 2 won't have the proper installation for a quick charge and won't have that any time soon.
I know lots of people here are 100$k+ tech worker living in fancy and sunny places but the reality is that the vast majority of people can't even afford an EV right now, let alone a 20$K+ solar instal for the house they don't even have yet.
> A lot of people don't own/live in a house in Europe,
Ok fair enough, I shouldn't have said "on your house".
The point of my comment was the decentralization of energy production and storage. i.e. "Cost of charging an EV is bounded by the ability to add solar panels to [someone's] house [, relatively nearby]". e.g. please look into https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/community-solar-basics
For as many people in the city that cannot add solar panels, there is land owned by someone who is very happy to install solar (with your money - as an "investor"), generate an excess, and sell it to the grid. It seems very unlikely that "the invisible hand of the free market" will result in higher cost of electricity for individuals.
Additionally, from 2019: "Under the 25-year contract with developer 8minute Solar Energy, the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power would pay less than 2 cents per kilowatt-hour — a number city officials and independent experts say would be the lowest price ever paid for solar power in the United States, and cheaper than the cost of electricity from a typical natural gas-fired power plant."
https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2019-08-27/los-ang...
Ok fair enough, I shouldn't have said "on your house".
The point of my comment was the decentralization of energy production and storage. i.e. "Cost of charging an EV is bounded by the ability to add solar panels to [someone's] house [, relatively nearby]". e.g. please look into https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/community-solar-basics
For as many people in the city that cannot add solar panels, there is land owned by someone who is very happy to install solar (with your money - as an "investor"), generate an excess, and sell it to the grid. It seems very unlikely that "the invisible hand of the free market" will result in higher cost of electricity for individuals.
Additionally, from 2019: "Under the 25-year contract with developer 8minute Solar Energy, the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power would pay less than 2 cents per kilowatt-hour — a number city officials and independent experts say would be the lowest price ever paid for solar power in the United States, and cheaper than the cost of electricity from a typical natural gas-fired power plant."
https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2019-08-27/los-ang...
there's no way that will be true, lol
This is the trend, backed by all the data and the expectation of the industry. Why do you think otherwise?
https://ourworldindata.org/battery-price-decline
https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/management/e...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_curve_effects
If you’re familiar with Moores Law, that is an example of an experience curve.
https://ourworldindata.org/battery-price-decline
https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/management/e...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_curve_effects
If you’re familiar with Moores Law, that is an example of an experience curve.
I’m familiar with the trend, but it’s unlikely the price of electric batteries would decrease an additional 90% in 20 years
“unlikely” based on what?
Your narrative is counter to the industry’s expectations of itself. Your narrative is counter to the research and science already showcased in labs.
So I just want to understand your perspective better. What sources are you using to justify “unlikely”, or are you using intuition?
Keep in mind exponential curves are very hard for humans to grasp and even harder for humans to believe, but the super majority of the time those curves hold for many decades.
Your narrative is counter to the industry’s expectations of itself. Your narrative is counter to the research and science already showcased in labs.
So I just want to understand your perspective better. What sources are you using to justify “unlikely”, or are you using intuition?
Keep in mind exponential curves are very hard for humans to grasp and even harder for humans to believe, but the super majority of the time those curves hold for many decades.
EV maintenance items should only involve tires, air filters, and wiper blades and fluid. My friends with Teslas have reported that these are the only things they've done in 50,000+ miles.
So same as a gas car minus oil changes.
I'm not going to put the entire ICE maintenance list here, but there are a lot more wear items. Brakes, belts, coolant, oil, transmission service, annual emissions inspections.
Radiator or other leaks.. pretty annoying.
The maintenance schedule is definitely more involved.
Edit: lostlogin, sure.. that's a, uhm, certain strategy. No doubt, Japanese cars can usually take an impressive amount of abuse. And yeah, a harsh way to treat a machine you rely on to keep you and your loved ones safe.
Radiator or other leaks.. pretty annoying.
The maintenance schedule is definitely more involved.
Edit: lostlogin, sure.. that's a, uhm, certain strategy. No doubt, Japanese cars can usually take an impressive amount of abuse. And yeah, a harsh way to treat a machine you rely on to keep you and your loved ones safe.
It can be, but our 2 corollas have had an oil change each in 10 years, one got a set of tyres and one needed brake pads and rotor skimming.
It’s a terrible way to treat cars, but they go fine.
It’s a terrible way to treat cars, but they go fine.
I've unfortunately taken a car to its limits by neglecting to change the oil (depression). They go fine and then they fail quite fast and permanently. Amazing how long it lasted without any noticeable effects, though!
Most people change their oil way, way too often. Places like Jiffy Lube will tell you every 3 months or 3000 miles because they make more money that way, but if you look at your manual it's more likely to say 6k miles with crude and have no time based recommendation. Synthetic oil you can go something like 10k IIRC.
Most people change their oil way, way too often. Places like Jiffy Lube will tell you every 3 months or 3000 miles because they make more money that way, but if you look at your manual it's more likely to say 6k miles with crude and have no time based recommendation. Synthetic oil you can go something like 10k IIRC.
Strange claim, because Hertz's fleets are comprised of new and almost brand new vehicles, which usually only require oil changes.
Then they sell them off after accumulating 10,000-25,000 miles, before any real maintenance is required.
20,000 miles is what, 4-6 oil changes?
Then they sell them off after accumulating 10,000-25,000 miles, before any real maintenance is required.
20,000 miles is what, 4-6 oil changes?
An explanation could be that people driving Hertz cars are not optimizing for car longevity which breaks more stuff earlier? Also 10,000-20,000 miles in pure city environment can still take a toll on the brakes which the EV would be more resistant too because of regenerative breaking.
The article mentions failures. Presumably it's quite an expensive hassle if a customer's car fails and you have to provide them with another one on top of the cost of the actual repair.
Interestingly JD Power claim that EVs have more problems https://techcrunch.com/2022/06/28/jd-power-evs-and-and-plug-... .. but mostly in the infotainment system? Maybe that matters less to rental drivers. Maybe that depends on brand.
Interestingly JD Power claim that EVs have more problems https://techcrunch.com/2022/06/28/jd-power-evs-and-and-plug-... .. but mostly in the infotainment system? Maybe that matters less to rental drivers. Maybe that depends on brand.
> 20,000 miles is what, 4-6 oil changes?
Most new cars have a 10,000 mile factory oil change interval. PHEVs usually go for 20,000.
Rental cars sometimes have a hard service life, but I'd put that range at maybe 1-2 changes. Which isn't much at all.
More likely there's a usage difference; if you're puttering around from the airport to the hotel and back, you might pick an EV, but if you're renting a car to drive a longer distance one-way trip, it's mostly going to be an ICE, and you're gonna put some miles on it at high speed, etc.
Most new cars have a 10,000 mile factory oil change interval. PHEVs usually go for 20,000.
Rental cars sometimes have a hard service life, but I'd put that range at maybe 1-2 changes. Which isn't much at all.
More likely there's a usage difference; if you're puttering around from the airport to the hotel and back, you might pick an EV, but if you're renting a car to drive a longer distance one-way trip, it's mostly going to be an ICE, and you're gonna put some miles on it at high speed, etc.
Thanks for the info, toast0.
Minor clarification: Highway miles are actually gentler than city / town miles. Less wear and tear due to stop and go traffic, 90 degree turns, and fewer potholes.
Minor clarification: Highway miles are actually gentler than city / town miles. Less wear and tear due to stop and go traffic, 90 degree turns, and fewer potholes.
They're generally gentler, but it kind of depends on the highway. The speeds also mean more consequences of any pothole or other obstruction, too.
But mostly the observation is that you'll likely get a lot more miles on the car in such a rental than a local rental. So a rental company that keeps a car in their fleet for 2-years or 20,000 miles is going to likely send most EVs out for age and more ICEs for milage (in my estimation, anyway), and so sure, ICEs will have oil changes in that interval, but they'll also have more of the every car needs maintenance sort of proportional to use (runtime and/or mileage), because they'll see more use.
But mostly the observation is that you'll likely get a lot more miles on the car in such a rental than a local rental. So a rental company that keeps a car in their fleet for 2-years or 20,000 miles is going to likely send most EVs out for age and more ICEs for milage (in my estimation, anyway), and so sure, ICEs will have oil changes in that interval, but they'll also have more of the every car needs maintenance sort of proportional to use (runtime and/or mileage), because they'll see more use.
I would be curious to see absolute values on this rather than percentages. Not having to do oil changes could easily be a 50% decrease, but oil changes also really aren't that expensive overall on a few tens of thousands of miles, right?
Some employee has to take those cars to jiffy lube (or whatever oil change place is contracted with that Hertz location to provide fluid changes) to the tune of $20/hr. I can see that dominating costs.
And on top of that the average EV probably has low(er) rolling resistance tires (to get a few more miles of range) which get replaced every 40k instead of whatever sticky tires the OEM slapped that only last 30k so you're doing that routine less too.
And on top of that the average EV probably has low(er) rolling resistance tires (to get a few more miles of range) which get replaced every 40k instead of whatever sticky tires the OEM slapped that only last 30k so you're doing that routine less too.
Oil changes probably explains the difference. We have 70,000 miles on my wife's Tesla and it's never gone in for any maintenance. We've replaced the tires on it twice now (Tesla's do eat tires) and I've replaced the cabin air filter a couple of times and fill up the windshield washer fluid about once a year.
I think the main issue is how people drive these cars. If you have a lot of short trips, or overrevving, or just in general abusing it (because rental), is much more common on ICE cars compared to electric ones?
Probably closer to 3 if they are following the cars oil life monitoring system
I wonder if the second hand price of EVs makes a difference. Until recently you could pretty much drive a Tesla for free for the first two years, as the second hand value hardly deprecated.
Here’s an interesting question- do they need to sell off EV’s after only 25,000 miles? Does simple maintenance reduce the turnover rate & associated costs?
Rental Companies are notorious for not doing scheduled maintenance on cars.
> ICE vehicles are toast
Let's wait, my dad traded his 20 years old car for a new model a few years ago, he paid 8k euros for a brand new ICE car, he does under 10k km per year now. The cheapest EV I can find is 22k euros here, and it's a piece of shit that barely does highway speed, which he could not afford anyways.
Companies will make public charger more and more expensive until it reaches the price of filling a gas car, it's just matter of time, mechanics will do the same. In the meantime it's all tricks and snares, enjoy it while it lasts
Let's wait, my dad traded his 20 years old car for a new model a few years ago, he paid 8k euros for a brand new ICE car, he does under 10k km per year now. The cheapest EV I can find is 22k euros here, and it's a piece of shit that barely does highway speed, which he could not afford anyways.
Companies will make public charger more and more expensive until it reaches the price of filling a gas car, it's just matter of time, mechanics will do the same. In the meantime it's all tricks and snares, enjoy it while it lasts
What car is only €8k new? I don't think there's anything in that price range in the US market..
Those are short term ownership costs. Major Rental Companies often pull cars between 35k-50k miles, which they can pile on the car in 12 months. For most modern cars that is a couple of oil changes, but before the long term maintenance items crop up like tires, which on EVs are more expensive.
I’m a fan of EVs, and drive them. But this is a horrible article. Throwing together few unrelated facts, without any context and making bold claims about how they connect together.
Rental cars are prime candidates for EVs as they get driven a lot more than the average car. I don't own a car, but whenever I rent one I'm putting a lot more miles on it per day than any car I ever owned in the past. I only rent cars when I know I'll be doing a lot of driving, so it makes sense (otherwise I'd just take a few taxis/Ubers).
The most typical rental car use case I can think of is you traveling to a random city and needing transportation, either for a business trip or on vacation. In either case, I'm driving in an unfamiliar city, to a bunch of random places. The last thing I want in that scenario is having to worry about where I can charge my car. Finding parking is already enough hassle enough.
I'm not worried about it. There's apps and websites that show you all the charging locations. You have to figure out much more complicated stuff than that while traveling.
I'd love to get an EV rental but I'm not willing to pay extra for it and luck hasn't smiled my way yet. I also don't use Hertz, mostly Avis, and I'm guessing they don't have nearly as many EVs.
I'd love to get an EV rental but I'm not willing to pay extra for it and luck hasn't smiled my way yet. I also don't use Hertz, mostly Avis, and I'm guessing they don't have nearly as many EVs.
>There's apps and websites that show you all the charging locations
and what if the conference center/tourist attraction you're going to doesn't have a charging station? What if they do, but they're broken/occupied? I agree it's not an insurmountable task, it's just something I don't want to have to worry about while I'm dealing with the other "much more complicated stuff".
and what if the conference center/tourist attraction you're going to doesn't have a charging station? What if they do, but they're broken/occupied? I agree it's not an insurmountable task, it's just something I don't want to have to worry about while I'm dealing with the other "much more complicated stuff".
Apparently you don't need to return EVs charged, so it would've been less hassle for me on my most recent rental. I had a car for 4 days in Las Vegas and drove around 250 miles total. I had to go out of my way when dropping it off for the flight to find a non-gouging gas station and stop there, whereas with an EV, I wouldn't have had to do that at all. Would've saved me $40 in gas too (which was 20% of the rental cost).
EVs have less maintenance costs than ICEs in general, but they have particularly less maintenance requirements during the for the lifespan rental companies keep their cars, often less then 30k miles. During that time you are really just looking at oil changes, fluids, and filters, which EVs don’t have or have less of.
Later in a car’s lifecycle you’ll start seeing things like tires, brakes (better with regenerative!), and trim start needing replacement, along with the battery. My older ICE’s most expensive maintenance issues in the last 2 years were the window regulators all failed- that has nothing to do with the power train.
Which is all to say EVs are cheaper to run overall, but they are suited to save even more money for rental companies than individual consumers.
Later in a car’s lifecycle you’ll start seeing things like tires, brakes (better with regenerative!), and trim start needing replacement, along with the battery. My older ICE’s most expensive maintenance issues in the last 2 years were the window regulators all failed- that has nothing to do with the power train.
Which is all to say EVs are cheaper to run overall, but they are suited to save even more money for rental companies than individual consumers.
> My older ICE’s most expensive maintenance issues in the last 2 years were the window regulators all failed
I had a car a number of years back where the window controls failed. Fixing it would have been so expensive (more than I could afford at the time) that I drove the entire NY winter with some plastic material taped over the top half of the window (as far up as it was when it failed).
I had a car a number of years back where the window controls failed. Fixing it would have been so expensive (more than I could afford at the time) that I drove the entire NY winter with some plastic material taped over the top half of the window (as far up as it was when it failed).
Yeah, I did that for the first one for a month because I couldn’t get in to a mechanic for weeks. After that, I searched “how to replace a window regulator in <my car>” on YouTube and then figured out how to do it myself.
Turns out it was about 45 minutes for me to do it myself. Not only did I save money (about $500 for all of them), but I saved time- going to a mechanic always ended up being about 2h
Turns out it was about 45 minutes for me to do it myself. Not only did I save money (about $500 for all of them), but I saved time- going to a mechanic always ended up being about 2h
This article is thinly veiled blogspam for the real article: https://thedriven.io/2022/10/31/hertz-sees-bigger-profits-as...
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Though I do think EVs to be better in terms of maintenance. I've had family members drive multiple ICE cars (Corolla and Civic respectively) over 200,000 miles. I honestly doubt modern ICE is that expensive to maintain.
> This is good news for the planet, as studies show that EVs create less carbon pollution than conventional gasoline-powered cars, even after accounting for energy expended to produce, transport, and charge them
How about the mining of battery materials and the effect of that? Or the disposal of batteries. This article is pretty biased in that it fails to address the externalities of the entire EV lifecycle.
How about the mining of battery materials and the effect of that? Or the disposal of batteries. This article is pretty biased in that it fails to address the externalities of the entire EV lifecycle.
Can we please stop with this copypasta in every EV thread? None of that is genuinely sustained by numbers, it's all just FUD. Batteries are, and have been for decades, among the most productively recycled materials. The number you see thrown around that Electric Vehicle batteries are not often recycled is down to the overwhelming majority of EV batteries still being productively used in their original installation.
There are better arguments, FWIW, about "EVs as personal transportation" that point out that battery production is going to be constrained as the industry evolves and that the comparatively few batteries we have should be prioritizing transit and grid storage vs. more Model S's. And I think there's a reasonable argument there (though the response will be that high margin luxury products are a much more effective way to grow that market than boring stuff).
But no, there's no one serious out there claiming that batteries are a bad environmental tradeoff.
There are better arguments, FWIW, about "EVs as personal transportation" that point out that battery production is going to be constrained as the industry evolves and that the comparatively few batteries we have should be prioritizing transit and grid storage vs. more Model S's. And I think there's a reasonable argument there (though the response will be that high margin luxury products are a much more effective way to grow that market than boring stuff).
But no, there's no one serious out there claiming that batteries are a bad environmental tradeoff.
I’m confused why you think production and disposal aren’t part of the data going into that statement. Every comparison I’ve seen includes battery production in the life cycle analysis.
Do you have an example of a full - ”cradle-to-grave” - life cycle analysis that shows EVs to have higher total emissions over their life span?
Do you have an example of a full - ”cradle-to-grave” - life cycle analysis that shows EVs to have higher total emissions over their life span?
The quote you highlight says "even after accounting for energy expended to produce, transport, and charge." And the assertion holds up.
For example, this recent study University of Michigan study [1] shows BEVs producing fewer carbon emissions over their lifetime, accounting for battery production, though it takes a few years to offset the greater initial carbon footprint of BEV production. (I'm not sure that this includes battery disposal specifically. Though I wouldn't expect that to be a decisive factor on its own.)
This is a complicated topic, and I'm sure it's very challenging to accurately estimate the carbon footprint of each step in the manufacturing production and value chain (for both BEVs and ICE vehicles). So I'm sure we'll continue to get a better picture as research continues. But it's incorrect to insinuate that these issues have not been accounted for.
[1] https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ac7cfc
For example, this recent study University of Michigan study [1] shows BEVs producing fewer carbon emissions over their lifetime, accounting for battery production, though it takes a few years to offset the greater initial carbon footprint of BEV production. (I'm not sure that this includes battery disposal specifically. Though I wouldn't expect that to be a decisive factor on its own.)
This is a complicated topic, and I'm sure it's very challenging to accurately estimate the carbon footprint of each step in the manufacturing production and value chain (for both BEVs and ICE vehicles). So I'm sure we'll continue to get a better picture as research continues. But it's incorrect to insinuate that these issues have not been accounted for.
[1] https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ac7cfc
I wouldn't expect a 368 word article go to deep into all EV lifecycle issues or studies.
Wouldn't that be a part of the "energy expended to produce" part of the statement? Maybe it's intentionally ambiguous, misleading if so.
Maybe after arresting their customer base they decided to revert back to doing actual legitimate forms of business?
I did notice that Hertz charges a flat $35 fee if you return an EV with less than 70% charge, with an additional $25 fee if the battery is below 10% [0]. I wonder if this is a big contributor to the profit margin: people rushing to return an EV rental car may not have time to recharge it to avoid the surcharge, whereas people returning ICE cars have time to refuel them. Also, the surcharge for returning an ICE car without a full tank is much lower; usually around $0.50 per missing gallon.
[0] https://www.hertz.com/blog/electric-vehicles/tesla/model-3/f...