Current and future role of Haber–Bosch ammonia in a carbon-free energy env(2020)(pubs.rsc.org)
pubs.rsc.org
Current and future role of Haber–Bosch ammonia in a carbon-free energy env(2020)
https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2020/ee/c9ee02873k
37 comments
There are so many alternatives to chemical fertilizer: manure (cow, horse, chicken, human), compost, planting nitrogen fixers, sowing ground cover plants... Depending on where you live each may be easier or harder to produce or procure. In addition there are generative techniques that concentrate on soil fertility: permaculture, cover crops, syntropic agroforestry to name a few. I have never used a chemical fertilizer in my garden, and am striving towards a completely autonomous fertilization cycle, where my garden's fertility grows each year without any external input.
> There are so many alternatives to chemical fertilizer: manure (cow, horse, chicken, human), compost, planting nitrogen fixers, sowing ground cover plants...
Cool. And which of those can I generate using excess electrical energy from my solar panels?
>I have never used a chemical fertilizer in my garden, and am striving towards a completely autonomous fertilization cycle
That is great. I don't have the time or interest in managing animals, and I manage my space for food production because it gives me a sense of control and independence over my food-supply. Over the last 3 years I've imported almost 5000kg of animal manures into my gardens. Its incredibly expensive, and even with that additional fertility, I need more. Its more important for me to have the independence and control over my food-supply than it is to hold to a particular relgiosity around where my N comes from. If I have animal manures, I'll use them. If I have chemical fertilizers, I'll use them. When I have pest issues, I try to use IPM. When that fails, I'll use a pesticide.
Cool. And which of those can I generate using excess electrical energy from my solar panels?
>I have never used a chemical fertilizer in my garden, and am striving towards a completely autonomous fertilization cycle
That is great. I don't have the time or interest in managing animals, and I manage my space for food production because it gives me a sense of control and independence over my food-supply. Over the last 3 years I've imported almost 5000kg of animal manures into my gardens. Its incredibly expensive, and even with that additional fertility, I need more. Its more important for me to have the independence and control over my food-supply than it is to hold to a particular relgiosity around where my N comes from. If I have animal manures, I'll use them. If I have chemical fertilizers, I'll use them. When I have pest issues, I try to use IPM. When that fails, I'll use a pesticide.
Are you sure you aren't over-fertilizing? Or are you doing something else silly that causes you to lose all your N? That's a crazy amount of nutrient for even a very large garden.
>That's a crazy amount of nutrient for even a very large garden.
Its really not. Cattle manure is around 2% nitrogen. If we call a yard of composted manure 450 kg, that's around 9 kg of nitrogen. Say I'm going through 5 yards annually, which is about right, so 45kg. I'd say some where between 1/2- 1/4th of that actually reaches the plants (22kg). I've got substantial gardens, and I garden them very intensively. I've got about 1000m2 of gardens. In my climate I can crop continuously. High fertility for corn would be around 280 kg/ha. If I'm at 220kg/ha on my 1000m2, that seems about right.
Its really not. Cattle manure is around 2% nitrogen. If we call a yard of composted manure 450 kg, that's around 9 kg of nitrogen. Say I'm going through 5 yards annually, which is about right, so 45kg. I'd say some where between 1/2- 1/4th of that actually reaches the plants (22kg). I've got substantial gardens, and I garden them very intensively. I've got about 1000m2 of gardens. In my climate I can crop continuously. High fertility for corn would be around 280 kg/ha. If I'm at 220kg/ha on my 1000m2, that seems about right.
Are you actually farming corn though? Over the whole thing? And at the density of commercial operations?
Sure, industrial corn operations use a lot of nitrogen (though they have indeed been shown to be over fertilizing, and a lot of the N from my state ends up in the Gulf), but gardens worked by human hands can be much, much, much more resource efficient at the cost of time and difficulty of automation.
With integrated nitrogen fixing plants, better use of mulch (which yes, ties up N at the surface temporarily, but can pay dividends overall), management of water flow etc, I cannot imagine needing that much fertilizer. I garden intensively in Iowa, and I do add a lot of compost when starting new beds (soil is clay) and I top up in the spring, but the older my beds get the fewer inputs they need.
Sure, industrial corn operations use a lot of nitrogen (though they have indeed been shown to be over fertilizing, and a lot of the N from my state ends up in the Gulf), but gardens worked by human hands can be much, much, much more resource efficient at the cost of time and difficulty of automation.
With integrated nitrogen fixing plants, better use of mulch (which yes, ties up N at the surface temporarily, but can pay dividends overall), management of water flow etc, I cannot imagine needing that much fertilizer. I garden intensively in Iowa, and I do add a lot of compost when starting new beds (soil is clay) and I top up in the spring, but the older my beds get the fewer inputs they need.
Where are you located. I am in south Florida, treasure coast. I am hoping to step up my farming on 5 acres over the next few years.
I'd rather not be too specific, but somewhere that is tropical by lat, but sub-tropical by climate. We would have very similar climates.
5 acres is a huge amount of area. Good luck! I've found a lack of resources for the issues you'll likely face around farming in tropical and sub-tropical climates. It was a big transition for me from being able to rely on long periods of intense cold to kill of most of the pests. I'm still trying to figure out big parts of how to do gardening here.
5 acres is a huge amount of area. Good luck! I've found a lack of resources for the issues you'll likely face around farming in tropical and sub-tropical climates. It was a big transition for me from being able to rely on long periods of intense cold to kill of most of the pests. I'm still trying to figure out big parts of how to do gardening here.
> Cool. And which of those can I generate using excess electrical energy from my solar panels?
Perhaps use the excess energy to power an electric wood chipper to process your garden's waste? Wood chips made from small branches are quite rich in nitrogen.
> Over the last 3 years I've imported almost 5000kg of animal manures into my gardens.
What size garden do you have? The recommended dosage of manure is 30-50T per hectare, so 3-5T per 1000m2, but this is for the most exigent vegetables.
> Its more important for me to have the independence and control over my food-supply than it is to hold to a particular relgiosity around where my N comes from.
When you use a chemical fertilizer you depend on the manufacturer and distributor. How can this be called independence?
There are important differences at the soil biology level between the N coming from a chemical fertiliser or assimilated by soil bacteria. The former induces plants to use more water, necessitating more frequent watering. It also infiltrates ground water and pollutes aquifers. Another externality is greenhouse gas emissions in the process of manufacturing it.
> When that fails, I'll use a pesticide.
I'm not passing judgement but I think it's important to understand the consequences of our choices. At this point it is common knowledge that chemical fertilizers and pesticides are harmful to the environment and to people's health. I think it's important to be aware of the externalities implicated in all those choices. They might be easier, faster, cheaper in the short term, but in the long term they may prove to be introducing problems that are much harder, slower, much more expensive to solve in the long term.
Perhaps use the excess energy to power an electric wood chipper to process your garden's waste? Wood chips made from small branches are quite rich in nitrogen.
> Over the last 3 years I've imported almost 5000kg of animal manures into my gardens.
What size garden do you have? The recommended dosage of manure is 30-50T per hectare, so 3-5T per 1000m2, but this is for the most exigent vegetables.
> Its more important for me to have the independence and control over my food-supply than it is to hold to a particular relgiosity around where my N comes from.
When you use a chemical fertilizer you depend on the manufacturer and distributor. How can this be called independence?
There are important differences at the soil biology level between the N coming from a chemical fertiliser or assimilated by soil bacteria. The former induces plants to use more water, necessitating more frequent watering. It also infiltrates ground water and pollutes aquifers. Another externality is greenhouse gas emissions in the process of manufacturing it.
> When that fails, I'll use a pesticide.
I'm not passing judgement but I think it's important to understand the consequences of our choices. At this point it is common knowledge that chemical fertilizers and pesticides are harmful to the environment and to people's health. I think it's important to be aware of the externalities implicated in all those choices. They might be easier, faster, cheaper in the short term, but in the long term they may prove to be introducing problems that are much harder, slower, much more expensive to solve in the long term.
I'm not going to bother responding to most of your points because most of them are poorly thought out and not worth my time, however this one stands out to me and I think captures the thrust of it..
>I'm not passing judgement
Oh I think you are. For many people in the world the decision around using synthetic fertilizers or pesticides is a decision between having a crop or not. This choice you want to make is a privilege that can only be made in the context of additional resources not accounted for, like having sufficient area to do crop rotation, additional land for the cultivation of fertilizers, or additional time and resources to dedicate to cultural practices.
Have you done the math on what are you would need to grow an acre of corn using only animal fertilizers? What about the carbon cost of moving that fertilizer around? What about the cost to the soil for tilling it in? How much additional land would need to be dedicated to animals to do? What about the methane and water quality issues for raising those animals? What if you live in an urban or sub-urban area?
There are real issues around over fertilization, intensified crop rotations, and pesticide use. Rejecting these tools outright, and more specifically, the attitude that we have the privilege to reject them outright is deeply problematic. If what you actually want is for people to grow into being more food self-sufficient, this attitude creates more barriers than it resolves.
If we could run the Haber-bosch process on what is effectively waste electricity, this would be a huge deal. Home gardeners could have something not too dissimilar to a battery bank that kicks on when there is surplus electricity, and fix nitrogen for storage into a tank for later use. Farmers could dedicate small sections of their farms to solar panels which can optimize between grid usage or the filling of fertilizer tanks depending on the economics. It would reduce the cost of producing and moving around that fertilizer. It would be a really good thing.
>I'm not passing judgement
Oh I think you are. For many people in the world the decision around using synthetic fertilizers or pesticides is a decision between having a crop or not. This choice you want to make is a privilege that can only be made in the context of additional resources not accounted for, like having sufficient area to do crop rotation, additional land for the cultivation of fertilizers, or additional time and resources to dedicate to cultural practices.
Have you done the math on what are you would need to grow an acre of corn using only animal fertilizers? What about the carbon cost of moving that fertilizer around? What about the cost to the soil for tilling it in? How much additional land would need to be dedicated to animals to do? What about the methane and water quality issues for raising those animals? What if you live in an urban or sub-urban area?
There are real issues around over fertilization, intensified crop rotations, and pesticide use. Rejecting these tools outright, and more specifically, the attitude that we have the privilege to reject them outright is deeply problematic. If what you actually want is for people to grow into being more food self-sufficient, this attitude creates more barriers than it resolves.
If we could run the Haber-bosch process on what is effectively waste electricity, this would be a huge deal. Home gardeners could have something not too dissimilar to a battery bank that kicks on when there is surplus electricity, and fix nitrogen for storage into a tank for later use. Farmers could dedicate small sections of their farms to solar panels which can optimize between grid usage or the filling of fertilizer tanks depending on the economics. It would reduce the cost of producing and moving around that fertilizer. It would be a really good thing.
> What size garden do you have? The recommended dosage of manure is 30-50T per hectare, so 3-5T per 1000m2, but this is for the most exigent vegetables.
Reading their other comments, they have about 1000m2 of garden. So using 5t over 3 years is 1/2 to 1/3 of the dosage you listed. They don't appear to be over using.
Reading their other comments, they have about 1000m2 of garden. So using 5t over 3 years is 1/2 to 1/3 of the dosage you listed. They don't appear to be over using.
"I try to use IPM"
What is IPM?
Also, how big is your land, if you need 5000 kg in 3 years?
edit: your profile says: "remote sensing of forests"
Can you explain, what that is?
What is IPM?
Also, how big is your land, if you need 5000 kg in 3 years?
edit: your profile says: "remote sensing of forests"
Can you explain, what that is?
IPM is integrated pest management, or an approach to pest management that generally avoids chemical pesticides, often taking a life-cycle approach to trying to deal with problematic insects, slugs, snails, etc. For me, this means mostly trying to manage three issues: aphids, powdery mildew, and tropical fruit flies.
I have around 1000m2 of planted area in a mix of vegetable crops and tree crops. 5000kg of cattle manure works out to around ~220kg/ha/yr of N, which is comparable with fertility rates for nitrogen intense crops like corn. Consider how deep a layer of compost would be spread that thin. Thats about 5kg/m2 over a couple of years, say some rounding for easy math, about 1.7kg of cattle manure/ m2/ yr. Maybe 2-4 good shovels of compost or 0.5-1.5 good cow shits per meter sq/year. Its really not that much. I also live in the subtropics and can crop more or less continuously. Its a ton of work, but I hope to have enough production to feed my family, and to run a small stand at a farmers market this summer.
My day job is the satellite remote sensing of forests and forested ecosystems. I use various different remote sensing platforms like landsat, sentinel, GEDI, and others, to consider questions around the carbon cycle, and biogeochemical processes in general. If you think you know me, the fact I'm particularly interested the impacts of disturbance of long term forest growth rates and carbon cycling would be an immediate tell as to my identity.
I have around 1000m2 of planted area in a mix of vegetable crops and tree crops. 5000kg of cattle manure works out to around ~220kg/ha/yr of N, which is comparable with fertility rates for nitrogen intense crops like corn. Consider how deep a layer of compost would be spread that thin. Thats about 5kg/m2 over a couple of years, say some rounding for easy math, about 1.7kg of cattle manure/ m2/ yr. Maybe 2-4 good shovels of compost or 0.5-1.5 good cow shits per meter sq/year. Its really not that much. I also live in the subtropics and can crop more or less continuously. Its a ton of work, but I hope to have enough production to feed my family, and to run a small stand at a farmers market this summer.
My day job is the satellite remote sensing of forests and forested ecosystems. I use various different remote sensing platforms like landsat, sentinel, GEDI, and others, to consider questions around the carbon cycle, and biogeochemical processes in general. If you think you know me, the fact I'm particularly interested the impacts of disturbance of long term forest growth rates and carbon cycling would be an immediate tell as to my identity.
Thanks for the explanations.
When I was heavy into gardening and self sufficency, my main problem with pest management were slugs (I live in a quite humid area) and if I get into it again, I will probably use a physical barrier all around the planted area. (Last time I tried it very ecological and biodiverse and it was exhausting and regarding slugs, not working at all.)
If you manage, to make your own nitrogen with solar, I would like to read about it. Sounds promising to me as well, but I am not sure if it is worth the effort for small gardening.
"My day job is the satellite remote sensing of forests and forested ecosystems."
And I was asking, because it sounded a bit esoterical a la remote viewing and that seemed odd, with your otherwise very pragmatic approach ... so thanks for clarifying, sounds interesting. And good luck for the next harvest!
When I was heavy into gardening and self sufficency, my main problem with pest management were slugs (I live in a quite humid area) and if I get into it again, I will probably use a physical barrier all around the planted area. (Last time I tried it very ecological and biodiverse and it was exhausting and regarding slugs, not working at all.)
If you manage, to make your own nitrogen with solar, I would like to read about it. Sounds promising to me as well, but I am not sure if it is worth the effort for small gardening.
"My day job is the satellite remote sensing of forests and forested ecosystems."
And I was asking, because it sounded a bit esoterical a la remote viewing and that seemed odd, with your otherwise very pragmatic approach ... so thanks for clarifying, sounds interesting. And good luck for the next harvest!
IPM is a method for determining when and how to control pests;
https://www.epa.gov/safepestcontrol/integrated-pest-manageme...
https://www.epa.gov/safepestcontrol/integrated-pest-manageme...
Good luck with eating lettuce fertilized with pig/human manure. There is a reason we have health codes. It is the same reason why people in the middle ages boiled all thier food, never ever eating "fresh" vegitables. And if anyone is worried about antibiotics in meat, have a look at how many different drugs are found in human poop. There are a thousand little ancient diseases out there that we in the west have largely forgotten about. Start pooping near where we grow food and they will all start comming back.
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-friday-ed...
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-friday-ed...
Imagine throwing 50kg of manure into the back of your tesla every spring.
50kg? Try more like 500kg. I usually get a 5 yard load dropped off once a year, and that isn't nearly enough.
HN readers may be amused to learn that "New Idea" is a brand name of manure spreaders.
If you have excess electricity, I always thought it would make sense to use the Birkeland–Eyde process [1].
From what I understand it is very energy inefficient, but scales down well.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkeland%E2%80%93Eyde_proce...
From what I understand it is very energy inefficient, but scales down well.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkeland%E2%80%93Eyde_proce...
Hmm. Very interesting. So many great industrial processes out there that got pushed aside by market forces. I don't suppose they've got a home unit that can run on 120?
If not, there's a business idea!
>> A couple of 10's of kg of fixed nitrogen a month
And for any other nitrogen uses. Haber-Bosch was originally conceived as a process for making cheaper explosives.
Wikipedia: "Allies had access to large deposits of sodium nitrate in Chile (Chile saltpetre) controlled by British companies. Germany had no such resources, so the Haber process proved essential to the German war effort. Synthetic ammonia from the Haber process was used for the production of nitric acid, a precursor to the nitrates used in explosives."
And for any other nitrogen uses. Haber-Bosch was originally conceived as a process for making cheaper explosives.
Wikipedia: "Allies had access to large deposits of sodium nitrate in Chile (Chile saltpetre) controlled by British companies. Germany had no such resources, so the Haber process proved essential to the German war effort. Synthetic ammonia from the Haber process was used for the production of nitric acid, a precursor to the nitrates used in explosives."
The Haber-Bosch reaction is exothermic, but requires elevated temperatures, so I suspect that there are significant economies of scale when scaling up the reaction vessel size due to reduced surface area to volume ratio.
When I think cryptocurrency and making nitrogen compounds, I think about the FBI and ATF showing up.
Would subscribe to this newsletter if you were to pursue the problem. Have lots of interest in the space but zero of the resources, access to sun, space or chemistry skillset so can only live vicariously on the topic.
In my limited knowledge of fertilizers the larger problem seems to be P and K which are sourced from mined minerals rather than air. It's possible to fix soil N with legumes but I don't know of a sustainable solution for PK leaving the farm with crop outputs.
P and K are abundant in the world's agricultural soils. They just need to be 'eaten' (dissolved) by soil microorganisms.[1]
The problem is that farmers have been taught to ignore the health of soil organisms and just apply a short-term bandaid chemical (vs biological) spray product, which causes more harm in the long-term. Take a wild guess who taught them that?
[1] https://youtu.be/x2H60ritjag
The problem is that farmers have been taught to ignore the health of soil organisms and just apply a short-term bandaid chemical (vs biological) spray product, which causes more harm in the long-term. Take a wild guess who taught them that?
[1] https://youtu.be/x2H60ritjag
Probably companies like Bayer and Yara. I'm aware that chemicals like glyphosate are detrimental to fungi and soil bacteria.
But I don't think regenerative farming with no mineral inputs is sustainable either. As this story shows there isn't always enough PK to pull out of the soil https://www.newsroom.co.nz/green-dream-pushes-farmers-into-r...
"Abundant" != "ubiquitous," but I see your point. There are always exceptions, but in aggregate (no pun intended...) the world's agricultural soils have no shortage of minerals.
Ultimately, this might be a simple story of "better soil outcompetes lower quality soil." Stop the presses! :) But I don't see how one exceptional case invalidates the use of soil biology to break down in-situ minerals.
I haven't evaluated their property, but they may benefit from relatively inexpensive glacial rock dust amendment. Sounds like their system could be rate-limited in the rock weathering step, not the biological activity.
Ultimately, this might be a simple story of "better soil outcompetes lower quality soil." Stop the presses! :) But I don't see how one exceptional case invalidates the use of soil biology to break down in-situ minerals.
I haven't evaluated their property, but they may benefit from relatively inexpensive glacial rock dust amendment. Sounds like their system could be rate-limited in the rock weathering step, not the biological activity.
[deleted]
To the point:
>Despite the technical feasibility of the electrically-driven Haber–Bosch ammonia, the question still remains whether such revolution will take place. We reveal that its success relies on two factors: increased energy efficiency and the development of small-scale, distributed and agile processes that can align to the geographically isolated and intermittent renewable energy sources.
>Despite the technical feasibility of the electrically-driven Haber–Bosch ammonia, the question still remains whether such revolution will take place. We reveal that its success relies on two factors: increased energy efficiency and the development of small-scale, distributed and agile processes that can align to the geographically isolated and intermittent renewable energy sources.
The point.
I have to say this article was published in December 2019, and since then some projects for new green ammonia plants have been planned (although I must update this information).
Synthetic fertilizers are not just about ammonia: urea is needed too, and the existing infrastructure accounts for both, produced in close proximity. And using natural gas, the big problem.
Also, another thing: urea production needs carbon, currently provided by methane. If the source is the atmosphere, then producing green fertilizer would not only be carbon neutral, it could become negative. But again, if, if, if...
Where renewable energy is cheap and not easily exportable (e.g. Greenland, that recycles energy-intensive aluminum), this could be a way of exporting it indirectly and of diversifying the economy. Either that or hydrogen exports.
There is also the geopolitical perspective, since the world trade of fertilizers depend too much on states that tend to regard international law as optional: Russia, Belarus and Morocco (for urea and potassium, potassium, and phosphorus, respectively).
I have to say this article was published in December 2019, and since then some projects for new green ammonia plants have been planned (although I must update this information).
Synthetic fertilizers are not just about ammonia: urea is needed too, and the existing infrastructure accounts for both, produced in close proximity. And using natural gas, the big problem.
Also, another thing: urea production needs carbon, currently provided by methane. If the source is the atmosphere, then producing green fertilizer would not only be carbon neutral, it could become negative. But again, if, if, if...
Where renewable energy is cheap and not easily exportable (e.g. Greenland, that recycles energy-intensive aluminum), this could be a way of exporting it indirectly and of diversifying the economy. Either that or hydrogen exports.
There is also the geopolitical perspective, since the world trade of fertilizers depend too much on states that tend to regard international law as optional: Russia, Belarus and Morocco (for urea and potassium, potassium, and phosphorus, respectively).
> states that tend to regard international law as optional
I know HN isn't supposed to be about politics, and not wishing to get into specifics and thus provoke an detailed argument, but many of us know of plenty of other "friendly" states that are happy to ignore international law whenever and wherever it suits them.
For those who haven't heard it, the BBC's "One Day In August" is really worthwhile: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04nrqsk
I know HN isn't supposed to be about politics, and not wishing to get into specifics and thus provoke an detailed argument, but many of us know of plenty of other "friendly" states that are happy to ignore international law whenever and wherever it suits them.
For those who haven't heard it, the BBC's "One Day In August" is really worthwhile: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04nrqsk
Here's the project I mentioned:
https://www.bondalti.com/en/multimedia/news/bondalti-fosters...
https://www.bondalti.com/en/multimedia/news/bondalti-fosters...
Btw I meant Iceland, not Greenland.
As an avid gardener who who got solar panels recently, I've seriously considered looking deeper into this. When I spec'd out my system, I did some back of the napkin math on mining bitcoin with surplus pixies during the day, and it came something on the order of 10x more profitable than what my utility is willing to give me for those same pixies.
However, I don't really use bitcoin. I do however, have an ongoing need for nitrogen fertilizers. I've been digging about into what it would take to drive the Haber Bosch process at a home scale. A couple of 10's of kg of fixed nitrogen a month would be more valuable to me than what my utility is willing to pay, and I could put it right to work in the garden beds.