Ask HN: Do you feel psychological safety at your job?
And if not, what’s your plan? I’m currently at a FAANG, and been in tech for almost two decades, and I’ve never felt such a huge loss of camaraderie and safety.
130 comments
Interestingly I’m a few years over 30 years info my tech career and it was avoid 10 years ago I could see the fnords at last. There is no safety, there never was. There’s no golden ring, there is no winning, there is no camaraderie, there is no value in promotion, the respect of your peers is meaningless, and it’s all just a sham to get you to expend more of your soul for less money. Once I had pierced the ceiling into ultra senior management of mega corps and was able to see how the system worked from top to bottom, it was obvious. The shared delusion is increasing apparent as you get more senior. You see yourself telling people to tell the lies knowing it’s a lie, and see the lie spread throughout the organization.
If you want material substance and human connection you have to take the lie of corporate life out of the equation, the lie of scarce seniority, the lie of compensation for merit, the lie of peer respect, the lie of all the various attachments and see reality for what it is. You may still keep doing the lies, I do, because they’re functionally useful and I’ve got financial commitments and need their money. But I know what it all is now, and my life is much richer for it.
If you seek that realizing you’ve been deceived by a massive shared illusion, you will find what you thought you had.
If you want material substance and human connection you have to take the lie of corporate life out of the equation, the lie of scarce seniority, the lie of compensation for merit, the lie of peer respect, the lie of all the various attachments and see reality for what it is. You may still keep doing the lies, I do, because they’re functionally useful and I’ve got financial commitments and need their money. But I know what it all is now, and my life is much richer for it.
If you seek that realizing you’ve been deceived by a massive shared illusion, you will find what you thought you had.
I'm just surprised people buy into the corporate nonsense in the first place. You have to be pretty intelligent to be a software developer.... yet... many of the same intelligent people appear not to understand how they're being manipulated in the workplace. Or the fact that looking after one another is a better idea for everyone, than competing against each other and behaving in a dog-eat-dog manner. In my experience, one can find camaraderie, human connection and lifelong friends, from a few people at any private (corporate) workplace. In public sector workplaces where the profit motive is less dominant and people stay longer in the job, I've found it easier to make friendships with nice people who I think if we worked in private sector it'd be "admiration from afar" . Many of us have worked in corporations where we have team-mates where there's respect and mutual appreciation but everyone's just too busy to connect, people move on etc . I think the answer is, be healthily skeptical about any corporate employer you work for and try to be kind to colleagues. Don't take it personally if the machine screws people over, and maintain good friendships outside of work
You don’t really have to be intelligent to be a software dev.
Literally just look at all the blockchain crap.
Literally just look at all the blockchain crap.
I don’t think that shows a lack of intelligence but a lack of either pragmatism or ethics, depending on the motive.
> it’s all just a sham to get you to expend more of your soul for less money
This is a concise and accurate summary.
This is a concise and accurate summary.
Indeed it is. I have lately been thinking more and more about the cooperative model as a viable alternative to the standard corporate model for software companies...
People seem to internalize and conform to the organizational imperative, either because they're well-compensated, they have family or external dependencies of high salary and stability, or they've numbed themselves to how organizations of people tend to turn into. Whichever of these, it's a self-selection bias of who remains long enough to get promoted upwards.
It’s a job dude. You sign the offer letter for 300k plus TC and you’re just a resource.
Do it well and you can leave any time you want for something else. You’re not forced to work for 300k lol. Just hop ship and make 400k.
You’re working for a capitalist machination. You want something deeper start your own company or do something else. These companies don’t care about you. The “cool tech” you build is just an icing on the cake to do what? Sell more ads? Exploit labor laws in poor countries? Exploit your own communities? Have teens harm themselves with awful programming and doom scrolling?
Wow really changing the world there.
Just my $0.02 as someone who lives in the real world.
Also pro tip you can make a lot of money not working in big tech. My job involves making sure people are safe and productive, not doing anything fucked up morally questionable that will make me lose my sleep at night. I make a bit less than what I’d make if I sold my soul to work at Meta or something.
Btw I’m sure people thought it was “cool” to work on the Death Star too.
Do it well and you can leave any time you want for something else. You’re not forced to work for 300k lol. Just hop ship and make 400k.
You’re working for a capitalist machination. You want something deeper start your own company or do something else. These companies don’t care about you. The “cool tech” you build is just an icing on the cake to do what? Sell more ads? Exploit labor laws in poor countries? Exploit your own communities? Have teens harm themselves with awful programming and doom scrolling?
Wow really changing the world there.
Just my $0.02 as someone who lives in the real world.
Also pro tip you can make a lot of money not working in big tech. My job involves making sure people are safe and productive, not doing anything fucked up morally questionable that will make me lose my sleep at night. I make a bit less than what I’d make if I sold my soul to work at Meta or something.
Btw I’m sure people thought it was “cool” to work on the Death Star too.
Oh if only I could upvote this x1000.
Watch the documentary "The Corporation". It explains perfectly what is going on.
Watch the documentary "The Corporation". It explains perfectly what is going on.
You can watch "The Corporation" free on the Internet Archive: https://archive.org/details/The_Corporation_/TheCorporation-...
More about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corporation_(2003_film)
More about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corporation_(2003_film)
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Camaraderie is an illusion with management or your boss. We're not comrades, we're their subjects. We can have comradeship with our peers, of course, but that's unlikely to provide a safety net where none of us are unionized.
So no, I don't feel safe. I smile and say polite things when they mention how great the company is or how the sales are, or what a great year it will be!(how will any of this benefit me, besides more work) I consider this performative act part of what they pay me for, even if it is very painful. I'm not in a FAANG though, just slumming it.
So no, I don't feel safe. I smile and say polite things when they mention how great the company is or how the sales are, or what a great year it will be!(how will any of this benefit me, besides more work) I consider this performative act part of what they pay me for, even if it is very painful. I'm not in a FAANG though, just slumming it.
Referring to yourself as a "subject" is a very unhealthy worldview. There are a lot of bad bosses, but there are a lot of great ones who regularly put their neck on the line for the teams they serve. It sounds like you've had some bad experiences, but you should not generalize them to the whole world.
Well, could go either way on the healthy/unhealthiness of it. I would argue that it's accurate though. I've had good bosses too! They're not demons, just doing their job. It doesn't change that relation between us though: I'm subject to their whim, for payment. We're not peers, not collaborators, it's a hierarchical relationship of dependence with clear boundaries. I recognize the lines can be more blurred with more layers of management in large corporate structures, when the direct manager is subject to similar pressures that the end-worker is under.
Definitely identify with this viewpoint -- I've heard the same feedback around the worldview being "unhealthy" but I would actually argue it is more accurate and provides clarity for me in regards to my relationship with my work. The main positive as I see it is in avoiding frustrations stemming from things completely out of my control.
I understand that my boss is not my friend, but to describe oneself as a “subject” is not something I relate to. In fact, I think it’s absurdly dramatic.
It’s not though - when you look at what really “drives” the relationship. You trade your labor for money in a system designed to keep us so anxious, we will accept as little wage as possible, by the same capital owning class.
We are subject to their desires as they are bound, by law, to choose profit for shareholders over employees.
We are their subjects. “Ain’t no war but class war” applies to us in tech as much as it does to the miners a mile underground in PA.
We are subject to their desires as they are bound, by law, to choose profit for shareholders over employees.
We are their subjects. “Ain’t no war but class war” applies to us in tech as much as it does to the miners a mile underground in PA.
I’m sorry, but your description of a relationship with an employer doesn’t match mine at all.
I don’t feel anxious. I feel comfortable.
I don’t accept as little as possible. I negotiate with the knowledge that I have options.
I don’t toil in the mines for 80 hours a week to barely afford to feed myself. I spend 40-50 hours a week doing something I rather enjoy, and for that, I’m paid a salary that affords a lifestyle few could have imagined even fifty years ago.
I understand that my employer would pay me less if they could. Then again, if I could find a plumber who could fix my shower for $200 instead of $250, I’d patronize the former, all else equal. Does that make the plumber my “subject”? I don’t think so.
I don’t feel anxious. I feel comfortable.
I don’t accept as little as possible. I negotiate with the knowledge that I have options.
I don’t toil in the mines for 80 hours a week to barely afford to feed myself. I spend 40-50 hours a week doing something I rather enjoy, and for that, I’m paid a salary that affords a lifestyle few could have imagined even fifty years ago.
I understand that my employer would pay me less if they could. Then again, if I could find a plumber who could fix my shower for $200 instead of $250, I’d patronize the former, all else equal. Does that make the plumber my “subject”? I don’t think so.
Your employer can also choose to terminate that relationship at any time. No problem, you could just get a job at another shop, right? Except when the black swan appears and all the other companies are doing layoffs and freezes, flooding the market with talent while limiting positions. Then, in that hour of crisis, is the true nature of the relationship revealed at last.
That's why you have savings to wait out that period...
As software devs. we can save, right? :). Not sure the same logic applies to people on low wage jobs. Or people like the characters in the movie "Nomadland" (which is supposed to be true to life)
Or live in a country that affords you a safety net and has rules for terminations.
I know the feel, but I also think this is misplaced anxiety. Work can be difficult, stressful, feel pointless, etc, which is why we get paid to do it. And you need some level of stress to get over the hump and get it done, to fight off complacency. The problem starts when we start blaming the person telling us what to do, for having to do it.
The problem starts with putting in charge those people that do not understand what needs to be done.
What you describe is a trade relationship, not "subject".
The same kind of trade relationship as that between American mining companies and Ghanaian miners.
I started managing a team a couple years ago, prior to which I was an individual contributor for a little over 20.
What you describe demonstrates a lack of honesty and integrity. All I can say is I’m glad you are not on my team.
What you describe demonstrates a lack of honesty and integrity. All I can say is I’m glad you are not on my team.
I can guess which FAANG you're at. "psychological safety" has been floating around the office recently.
I mostly feel secure because (a) my ratings have been good, and more importantly (b) I don't think my team is going to get axed because we maintain a pretty core feature.
I think if you're in the bottom 6-8% or whatever they set the low ratings at, you're in danger. And if you're on a team that doesn't generate money/keep users on the app longer, you're in danger.
Neither of those apply to me, so I feel only very mild danger. Also, I just got my green card, so at least I won't get booted out of the country if they fire me now.
Downside is that there isn't much promo opportunity on my team either. If I want to be promoted based on technical ability instead of leadership/management (which I very much don't want, I'd have to switch to a more algorithm-heavy team but then (b) above might apply, and also I like my current team.
No camaraderie though. People don't properly communicate in general. A crapton of meetings, but no one goes out of their way to actually help eachother.
I mostly feel secure because (a) my ratings have been good, and more importantly (b) I don't think my team is going to get axed because we maintain a pretty core feature.
I think if you're in the bottom 6-8% or whatever they set the low ratings at, you're in danger. And if you're on a team that doesn't generate money/keep users on the app longer, you're in danger.
Neither of those apply to me, so I feel only very mild danger. Also, I just got my green card, so at least I won't get booted out of the country if they fire me now.
Downside is that there isn't much promo opportunity on my team either. If I want to be promoted based on technical ability instead of leadership/management (which I very much don't want, I'd have to switch to a more algorithm-heavy team but then (b) above might apply, and also I like my current team.
No camaraderie though. People don't properly communicate in general. A crapton of meetings, but no one goes out of their way to actually help eachother.
What you describe is more job security. Physilogocal safety is about feeling safe to speak up without being punished or humiliated for speaking up on ideas, concerns, or mistakes (etc.). If nobody is communicating properly it may be an indication your company has many people that don't feel safe.
Oh...well, then absolutely not. They promise "no retaliation" but I swear even their training video alludes to their being consequences to calling someone out on harassment. Plus a very recent article where the victim was fired.
Speaking up about technical problems is mostly fine though. Might not accomplish anything but it's fine.
Speaking up about technical problems is mostly fine though. Might not accomplish anything but it's fine.
Where is that paren supposed to close?
The rest of HN is part of the parenthetical until there is a stray close paren.
I think I might be able to close it here)
Thank you. My HN linter was going nuts.
"The function 'which' is undefined."
Hm... I spent 20 seconds looking for an edit button, couldn't find one, so that paren is one with the people now.
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Neither of those things applied to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And you let go? Damn :-( Sorry to hear that. Do you have any idea why that might have been?
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Two rules:
Rule #1: Have enough savings in your bank account to pay all your living expenses for at least one year. (Obviously easier said than done.)
Rule #2: Follow Rule #1. (If you do, you'll have time to figure everything else out. That might mean finding a new job.)
Rule #1: Have enough savings in your bank account to pay all your living expenses for at least one year. (Obviously easier said than done.)
Rule #2: Follow Rule #1. (If you do, you'll have time to figure everything else out. That might mean finding a new job.)
This. Always have an exit strategy from your job. Being fired is often beyond your control.
Most Americans don’t have $1000 in savings.
And? Thats fking pathetic and nearly every single healthy, unburdened FAANG engineer should be deahtly embarrassed to find themselves in such a situation.
But for those reading this who are "crying in bathrooms", what does it say about your lifestyle thst you likely made 2-3x my salary, and yet i walked away from tech for years while youre somehow fearful of making ends meet?
I eat what i want, i have money for more weed and booze and casual friendships than i can dream of. I am fucking disgusted with this "trying to make it seem like fired tech workers are as pitiable as average americans".
No. No more. You want me to cry for your lost Google salary, i wanna see numbers.
This entire shit conversation is privileged and absurd and ignorant of what the left has advocated for for decades ... to a point i pull at my hair.
Seriously, this fucking website is gonna cry over fired tech workers when hundreds of thousands of americans who make less than 5% of google salary experience this, regularly, without severance, health care and a halfway decent shot at findinf a new job. Really? Ive seen the attitudes that are popular here. BUT GOD FORBID SOMEONE QUESTION THE SPENDING HABITS OF THE SELF-IMAGINED-AS-WEALTHY TECH CLASS?!
But for those reading this who are "crying in bathrooms", what does it say about your lifestyle thst you likely made 2-3x my salary, and yet i walked away from tech for years while youre somehow fearful of making ends meet?
I eat what i want, i have money for more weed and booze and casual friendships than i can dream of. I am fucking disgusted with this "trying to make it seem like fired tech workers are as pitiable as average americans".
No. No more. You want me to cry for your lost Google salary, i wanna see numbers.
This entire shit conversation is privileged and absurd and ignorant of what the left has advocated for for decades ... to a point i pull at my hair.
Seriously, this fucking website is gonna cry over fired tech workers when hundreds of thousands of americans who make less than 5% of google salary experience this, regularly, without severance, health care and a halfway decent shot at findinf a new job. Really? Ive seen the attitudes that are popular here. BUT GOD FORBID SOMEONE QUESTION THE SPENDING HABITS OF THE SELF-IMAGINED-AS-WEALTHY TECH CLASS?!
You’re mad at the wrong demographic. Direct your anger higher up, not at people working and not at regular ass people who are willing and able to save, but also have life obligations that make that difficult. The upper middle class isn’t the actual enemy, despite their accessibility & visibility to you which, I know, can be grating.
I know that, I also know who enables them and is ignorant of the score, because theyre blinded by rampant thoughtless consumerism. I know which ones have a hope of being convinced and have a self-interest in a better path. (And I tried to word the op carefully enough to leave exceptions for <insert niche scenario>)
But maybe I should be more careful in how I speak. Class consciousness is key and I didnt know any better until I did.
But also I know whats it like to live in a nice, newly built 2br apt in the second most expensive tech city. And I know how to make that work, coasting, on ~60k/yr, without free meals, without free orca cards, without free shuttles across town. So when i see 5year xooglers that i know made 300k+ the entire time, my head starts to pulsate.
When I think about how i can draw what i draw off my (big tech co) stock, and then I think about those same xooglers, and their stock benefits...
It just feels like these conversations are borderline dishonest with the handwaving and intentional lack of discussion of specifics, and any consideration of the meta of how this tragic, unthinkable event is discussed here compared to other topics related to labor.
But maybe I should be more careful in how I speak. Class consciousness is key and I didnt know any better until I did.
But also I know whats it like to live in a nice, newly built 2br apt in the second most expensive tech city. And I know how to make that work, coasting, on ~60k/yr, without free meals, without free orca cards, without free shuttles across town. So when i see 5year xooglers that i know made 300k+ the entire time, my head starts to pulsate.
When I think about how i can draw what i draw off my (big tech co) stock, and then I think about those same xooglers, and their stock benefits...
It just feels like these conversations are borderline dishonest with the handwaving and intentional lack of discussion of specifics, and any consideration of the meta of how this tragic, unthinkable event is discussed here compared to other topics related to labor.
If you’re making FAANG money you are in no way “upper middle class” by any statistical definition.
Maybe you can’t our little Johny in the private school, max out your 401K, save enough so he doesn’t have to demean himself and go to a cheaper state school, etc. if you work for BigTech and you haven’t been saving, it’s because of your own life choices that people who make less than half of what you do don’t make and they aren’t homeless or hungry.
No this isn’t jealous. I work for $BigTech.
Maybe you can’t our little Johny in the private school, max out your 401K, save enough so he doesn’t have to demean himself and go to a cheaper state school, etc. if you work for BigTech and you haven’t been saving, it’s because of your own life choices that people who make less than half of what you do don’t make and they aren’t homeless or hungry.
No this isn’t jealous. I work for $BigTech.
Like I said, easier said than done. Having at least a year's worth of savings is a path to psychology safety while working in tech, which is what they were asking about. I learned this lesson earlier in my career during the Dot Com Bust when I, too, didn't have $1000 in savings.
The OP isn’t the “typical American”. He is making FAANG salaries.
But I had six months worth of living expenses in the bank by the time I had been working for a year and a half in the 90s. I made $11/hour as a computer operator. But they needed someone to build a data entry system and do some other development for their second site they were trying to build. I saved every penny of my after tax overtime.
I’ve made sure I’ve had six months worth of expenses saved from the time I was 22. I am now 49. Anytime I took on a new fixed expense, I made sure I had six times that amount in the bank shortly thereafter.
That mindset kept me off the hedonic treadmill. I work for $BigTech remotely. Until last year I was driving a 2011 Ford Fusion that I got from CarMax in 2012 for $14K.
I won’t get started about how we gave up everything to live out of three suitcases and fly around the US half the year and stay in our own vacation home/rental property the other half.
But I had six months worth of living expenses in the bank by the time I had been working for a year and a half in the 90s. I made $11/hour as a computer operator. But they needed someone to build a data entry system and do some other development for their second site they were trying to build. I saved every penny of my after tax overtime.
I’ve made sure I’ve had six months worth of expenses saved from the time I was 22. I am now 49. Anytime I took on a new fixed expense, I made sure I had six times that amount in the bank shortly thereafter.
That mindset kept me off the hedonic treadmill. I work for $BigTech remotely. Until last year I was driving a 2011 Ford Fusion that I got from CarMax in 2012 for $14K.
I won’t get started about how we gave up everything to live out of three suitcases and fly around the US half the year and stay in our own vacation home/rental property the other half.
SEs should have more though
Man, my gut reaction to this stuff is growing less and less patient.
Hi, welcome to the left, or class solidarity if thats more palatable. Every time yall rolled your eyes at unions and labor protections?
Protip, a buncha people need to really internalize this -- your boss and management don't give a shit about you (certainly not in any tangible, meaningful way). You're not family and never were any more than my deadbeat dad was family because he made me do yardwork.
Yo, your boss totally is gonna "value you" more if you downvote me to satiate the cognitive dissonance! Lol I can't, I really can't.)
Hi, welcome to the left, or class solidarity if thats more palatable. Every time yall rolled your eyes at unions and labor protections?
Protip, a buncha people need to really internalize this -- your boss and management don't give a shit about you (certainly not in any tangible, meaningful way). You're not family and never were any more than my deadbeat dad was family because he made me do yardwork.
Yo, your boss totally is gonna "value you" more if you downvote me to satiate the cognitive dissonance! Lol I can't, I really can't.)
It's a bloody job. I have no right to a job. You have no right to a job. I just maintain and grow my skills and demonstrate my value as best I can until the day I'm no longer needed. Then on to the next thing. Psychological safety doesn't exist.
Article 23,24,25 of the universal declaration of rights
> Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
> Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
> Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
> Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
I know reality often does not match, but if we are talking about rights, surely this document is relevant.
https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...
> Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
> Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
> Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.
> Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
I know reality often does not match, but if we are talking about rights, surely this document is relevant.
https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...
Not sure to what extent the United States acknowledges such things from the UN, but for our purposes let's say it does. An individual may have a right to work, but business owners also have a right to employ who they want (barring any unlawful/discriminatory practices). Put differently, losing your job does not infringe on your right to work, you just need to find someone else to work for.
An individual's right to work and earn a meaningful living ends where others' rights begin. No one is obligated to do anything for you outside of relevant laws. It's on the individual to pursue work and a meaningful living.
An individual's right to work and earn a meaningful living ends where others' rights begin. No one is obligated to do anything for you outside of relevant laws. It's on the individual to pursue work and a meaningful living.
It seems the US is committed to it (source: https://br.usembassy.gov/united-states-remains-committed-to-...)
I suspected the focus would be on the first paragraph, but nobody focused on the last paragraph
> Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
This seems to contradict, at least partly, the man-eats-man attitude of no right for work that OP was expressing.
I suspected the focus would be on the first paragraph, but nobody focused on the last paragraph
> Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
This seems to contradict, at least partly, the man-eats-man attitude of no right for work that OP was expressing.
I'm pretty sure that the first part of the quote doesn't mean what you're implying it does. The right to work and free choice of employment does not make one safe against not being offered a job or being fired from one.
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Interestingly there seem to be (at least) 2 schools of thought popular in the US:
1. I have no right to a job. I should earn one myself, or make my own thing. Pull myself up by my bootstraps. Etc.
2. Business owners and landlords are the ruling class. They have an obligation to support us in the form of jobs or housing. Etc.
1. I have no right to a job. I should earn one myself, or make my own thing. Pull myself up by my bootstraps. Etc.
2. Business owners and landlords are the ruling class. They have an obligation to support us in the form of jobs or housing. Etc.
Must be infuriating to belong to the first category, build a business out of nothing, and then have a lot of people from the second category come, demanding you support them, because "you're rich!".
I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “psychologically safe”. Could you elaborate please?
From Wikipedia:
> Psychological safety is the belief that one will not be punished or humiliated for speaking up with ideas, questions, concerns, or mistakes. In teams, it refers to team members believing that they can take risks without being shamed by other team members. In psychologically safe teams, team members feel accepted and respected. It is also the most studied enabling condition in group dynamics and team learning research.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_safety
> Psychological safety is the belief that one will not be punished or humiliated for speaking up with ideas, questions, concerns, or mistakes. In teams, it refers to team members believing that they can take risks without being shamed by other team members. In psychologically safe teams, team members feel accepted and respected. It is also the most studied enabling condition in group dynamics and team learning research.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_safety
I've always taken it to mean: Do you feel safe speaking up? Particularly when you disagree. Or do you feel safe voicing your opinion, particularly when it goes against the majority?
Of course not. We're in a culture war with cancel culture normalized. If you dissent you are toasted.
… cancel culture is about holding people accountable… It’s not about canceling employees because of dissenting at work.
That is probably the most charitable interpretation of the phenomenon possible. I do not think it is about holding people accountable at all, I think it is a new way to enforce shifting social norms that allows people to judge others without being ‘judgy.’
Please name a single instance of an individual being “cancelled” for anything but bigotry, hatred, violence, or dangerous rhetoric. I’ll wait.
People aren’t being cancelled for speaking their minds. They’re being cancelled when speaking their minds is literally offensive to small and large groups of people.
Almost every time someone is complaining about cancel culture, what they’re really complaining about is being held accountable for the dumb shit they say or want to say.
Also, “shifting social norms”, lol, from what to what, if you don’t mind me asking?!
Edit: you can downvote me but you can’t produce a single example.
People aren’t being cancelled for speaking their minds. They’re being cancelled when speaking their minds is literally offensive to small and large groups of people.
Almost every time someone is complaining about cancel culture, what they’re really complaining about is being held accountable for the dumb shit they say or want to say.
Also, “shifting social norms”, lol, from what to what, if you don’t mind me asking?!
Edit: you can downvote me but you can’t produce a single example.
I don't think an answer will satisy you because anything can be bigotry.
Or more aplty: the problem is we have a deep divide in what constitutes bigotry. A significant portion of Americans oppose gay marriage, and a roughly equal portion would consider that bigotry.
You cannot run a society that way.
Im not necessarily trying to say you're wrong. Rather, I am trying to infuse some humility and shades of grey into a situation that I think you're portraying as black-and-white.
Or more aplty: the problem is we have a deep divide in what constitutes bigotry. A significant portion of Americans oppose gay marriage, and a roughly equal portion would consider that bigotry.
You cannot run a society that way.
Im not necessarily trying to say you're wrong. Rather, I am trying to infuse some humility and shades of grey into a situation that I think you're portraying as black-and-white.
If you can't offend, you can't dissent. Anything is offensive to somebody.
Frankly, I'm not interested in examples that weave their way through your maze of exceptions for what you deem to be acceptable dissent. I care about the people spouting "dangerous rhetoric", whatever that is, getting cancelled.
Frankly, I'm not interested in examples that weave their way through your maze of exceptions for what you deem to be acceptable dissent. I care about the people spouting "dangerous rhetoric", whatever that is, getting cancelled.
“Maze of exceptions” so you want to hear racism and violence? Gtfo if Andrew Tate is what you want.
"Physchological safety" is a buzz word common in MBA circles. There are many articles written about it, shared on HN even.
I'm torn between down voting this for being unnecessarily condescending and letting you feel safe to speak your mind on HN. Take my down vote with the knowledge it's OK to share you disagree or find the topic a nuisance of late, but you can be a little more thoughtful on how to voice that.
This seems like an example where someone takes unnecessary offense. I didn't feel any arrogance from the post. Perhaps a good portion of sources of fears of "psychological safety" is everyone is getting constantly told how they're a "nobody", without ever thinking that if it was so, then they already wouldn't be there.
What was offensive about it? Or do “MBAs” trigger you? Because then I totally understand I find them offensive too.
Like do you feel job security? Do you think that doing a good job is enough? Can you do your job without feeling like you’re going to get fired all the time? Do you trust your boss and coworkers and feel safe being open with your leadership chain?
Psychological safety and job security are different. They may have correlations.
Job security comes from career capital. You are seen as a key contributor and the company does its best to retain you. If you leave or are left, you can pick up a new job quickly.
Psychological safety comes from mutual respect. You don’t make fun of people for making suggestions you disagree with, they don’t think you’re dumb for making a mistake. That sort of thing. Having each other’s backs basically. While management can work on promoting psychological safety, they do not have direct power to implement it (outside of firing/coaching toxic people), you and your team have to do the implementation.
Funnily, your job security may come at the cost of psychological safety to the team, if you’re the problem, but also a critical high performer.
Job security comes from career capital. You are seen as a key contributor and the company does its best to retain you. If you leave or are left, you can pick up a new job quickly.
Psychological safety comes from mutual respect. You don’t make fun of people for making suggestions you disagree with, they don’t think you’re dumb for making a mistake. That sort of thing. Having each other’s backs basically. While management can work on promoting psychological safety, they do not have direct power to implement it (outside of firing/coaching toxic people), you and your team have to do the implementation.
Funnily, your job security may come at the cost of psychological safety to the team, if you’re the problem, but also a critical high performer.
I feel safe only because I'm not afraid of being fired. Not that it wouldn't happen, but that I'm confident I'd find an equally good job without any major pains or setbacks on the chance I am fired. A few months of searching is a slog for sure, but being afraid to do what I think is right at work wouldn't be worth avoiding it.
Anyone that's been in tech at the FAANG tier for two decades and doesn't have at least one to two years of runway not including retirement accounts is observably terrible at managing money.
People live paycheck-to-paycheck for all sorts of reasons, including long-term medical costs or family support. FAANG salaries certainly make that less common, but I think we can probably be a little more empathetic about life's vagaries.
And what type of “long term medical costs” aren’t covered by the insurance you get from your job?
The kind that affect your non-immediate relatives, or require long term physical therapy (many plans will only cover the bare minimum), or really anything else. Medical insurance is not uniform in quality.
We aren’t talking about non quality plans. We are talking about the plans offered by major technology companies.
“My non immediate relatives” can’t be my burden to bare. You have to put your own life jacket on first - my wife and my children
“My non immediate relatives” can’t be my burden to bare. You have to put your own life jacket on first - my wife and my children
Even plans offered by major technology companies vary significantly: I know of at least one person with 5 figure out-of-pocket annual medical costs at a FAANG.
I think it would behoove you to think more generally: not everybody has the same familial structure as you. Some people live with their distant relatives because they act as (or need) caretakers, or come from cultures where a single familial household is the norm. "I only care about my and mine" is not an attitude that "works" for billions of people on this planet.
I think it would behoove you to think more generally: not everybody has the same familial structure as you. Some people live with their distant relatives because they act as (or need) caretakers, or come from cultures where a single familial household is the norm. "I only care about my and mine" is not an attitude that "works" for billions of people on this planet.
And yet “billions of people” aren’t making anywhere near what tech salaries are and they manage. People are taking care of extended family owning a neighborhood convenience store.
By the way, I’m not unsympathetic to people with long term medical conditions. While my situation isn’t serious, I was born with cerebral palsy and my parents put me through every type of therapy that you can imagine - speech, physical and occupational therapy and I went to all types of doctors on the salary of a teacher and a factory worker.
They also retired at 53 and 55 and are now 78 and 80 living in the same house they bought in 1978 in South Georgia. My dad owned three cars his entire life and my mom owned 5. They didn’t try to keep up with the Jones
This is not a sympathy post. By the time I was in high school I was winning speaking competitions, and I spent a decade as an adult as fitness instructor and a runner up to half marathons. It really only affects my left hand.
By the way, I’m not unsympathetic to people with long term medical conditions. While my situation isn’t serious, I was born with cerebral palsy and my parents put me through every type of therapy that you can imagine - speech, physical and occupational therapy and I went to all types of doctors on the salary of a teacher and a factory worker.
They also retired at 53 and 55 and are now 78 and 80 living in the same house they bought in 1978 in South Georgia. My dad owned three cars his entire life and my mom owned 5. They didn’t try to keep up with the Jones
This is not a sympathy post. By the time I was in high school I was winning speaking competitions, and I spent a decade as an adult as fitness instructor and a runner up to half marathons. It really only affects my left hand.
The point about "billions" was about proportions: for everyone like you or me, there are 1-2 other people on this planet living under radically different familial expectations. They don't need to all be working at tech jobs on tech salaries; it only needs to be the case that a substantial proportion are (which is true).
I don't know how old you are, but it sounds like your parents benefited from a substantially more worker-friendly economy than most people in my generation do. Put another way: it's fantastic that your family was able to get you the help you needed, but I don't think that you experience is repeatable in 2023 ("keeping up with the Joneses" or not).
I don't know how old you are, but it sounds like your parents benefited from a substantially more worker-friendly economy than most people in my generation do. Put another way: it's fantastic that your family was able to get you the help you needed, but I don't think that you experience is repeatable in 2023 ("keeping up with the Joneses" or not).
Most small shop tech jobs in smaller cities pay very little comparatively. The OP said they were currently at FAANG, not that they have been at that level for 2 decades.
Having worked with lots of people with over 20 years experience, a lot of them stuck with a single company their entire career and are making nowhere near FAANG.
Having worked with lots of people with over 20 years experience, a lot of them stuck with a single company their entire career and are making nowhere near FAANG.
I just started working for a FAANG at 46. I’ve had three to six months savings in the bank since I was 23 working as a computer operator.
There is not a day since then that I have lost sleep about losing my job. I’ve always found jobs quickly.
My expenses starting next year should be lower than they were when I was making less than half as much in 2016. I’m voluntarily helping my younger son out in some ways until he turns 22
There is not a day since then that I have lost sleep about losing my job. I’ve always found jobs quickly.
My expenses starting next year should be lower than they were when I was making less than half as much in 2016. I’m voluntarily helping my younger son out in some ways until he turns 22
FAANG only pays well in the US. Those of us outside have to do with “above market rate”, which is a fluid concept.
I'm in Canada and cry when I look at levels.fyi
Lol, I worked as a college hire for MS for 4yrs and had 5yrs of runway and still have a couple of years. Between that and even the tiniest bit of class awareness, i just cant with these posts. Holy shit.
(No silverspoon here, stock matches and living conservatively)
(No silverspoon here, stock matches and living conservatively)
If you get used to making some money and think you can rely on it, you might make commitments to spend it. Then if your income drops, suddenly you are at risk of breaking those commitments. This can happen at literally any income level.
Then “Don’t do that”. My income has more than doubled since 2016. My commitments haven’t changed nor has my budget. For reference, in 2016 I was making $115K.
...or you might choose not to make unreasonable commitments and save aggressively...
"reasonable" is doing a big job there. What's reasonable? Unreasonable?
0 is the only properly reasonable value when you're considering potentially have 0 income. Don't make any commitments
0 is the only properly reasonable value when you're considering potentially have 0 income. Don't make any commitments
“What’s the point of having money if you’re not going to spend it?”
Combine that idea with a bit of overconfidence, and you’ll find all sorts of expensive ways to improve the lives of yourself and your family.
Combine that idea with a bit of overconfidence, and you’ll find all sorts of expensive ways to improve the lives of yourself and your family.
nope. I spoke to HR regarding this after my manager threatened to fire the whole team and said we could not take vacation the entirety of next year. This was after repeated similar comments and hostility. I was promptly let go this week. So to be clear, don’t talk to HR either if you feel unsafe.
HR is never your friend!!
HR is mostly there to reduce risk for the employer.
Name and shame
Job security does not exist, regardless of how well someone performs one’s job. Big Tech has had a good run. Those in the other sectors learned long ago that there isn’t any job security.
I think you might be too attached to your daily habits and routines.
I'm self-employed, but I've battled that feeling on longer jobs where I started to feel immense anxiety and almost a depression-like state when a job was coming to a close and I was just going to have to find something out.
Socializing with people helps, getting involved at my church and back when I was younger I would do things with my neighbors and that sort of thing.
Unless you're completely devoted to some mission at the corp you work for, always remember that you bring that money home to your family first, and everything else about work is secondary to that. It's likely you're not saving the world at work, and it's also likely (statistically, not based on you personally) that the company would survive if you were to disappear or quit.
It's tough though. It takes a distinct effort to acknowledge this and counteract it, but it is worth doing precisely because of what you're feeling now. It's scary to have your habits and routines and comforts threatened with change.
Not every change is good, not ever change is bad, not ever proposed change will always come to, and not every change is announced prior. What is certain, is that you must find a way forward in a world that changes every day, whether you like it or not.
I'm self-employed, but I've battled that feeling on longer jobs where I started to feel immense anxiety and almost a depression-like state when a job was coming to a close and I was just going to have to find something out.
Socializing with people helps, getting involved at my church and back when I was younger I would do things with my neighbors and that sort of thing.
Unless you're completely devoted to some mission at the corp you work for, always remember that you bring that money home to your family first, and everything else about work is secondary to that. It's likely you're not saving the world at work, and it's also likely (statistically, not based on you personally) that the company would survive if you were to disappear or quit.
It's tough though. It takes a distinct effort to acknowledge this and counteract it, but it is worth doing precisely because of what you're feeling now. It's scary to have your habits and routines and comforts threatened with change.
Not every change is good, not ever change is bad, not ever proposed change will always come to, and not every change is announced prior. What is certain, is that you must find a way forward in a world that changes every day, whether you like it or not.
Can you explain how specifically you feel unsafe psychologically? Sounds like a bloated term without context or specifics.
Lol, no. I have no plan other than tread water until my kids are older and I can retake my destiny into my own hands.
Use your benefits and get some therapy. It will help!
Have you been at the same company for your entire career? Sometimes moving companies helps develop resilience because you learn that your skills are still valued and transferrable.
It improves your self-esteem and your psychological safety to focus on things you control. And the only thing you control is you. This will help you accept uncertainty and go on living.
Outside of your self work the only thing you and your coworkers could unionize to help improve things for everyone.
Have you been at the same company for your entire career? Sometimes moving companies helps develop resilience because you learn that your skills are still valued and transferrable.
It improves your self-esteem and your psychological safety to focus on things you control. And the only thing you control is you. This will help you accept uncertainty and go on living.
Outside of your self work the only thing you and your coworkers could unionize to help improve things for everyone.
Yes, I do, but I've worked at the same small (relative to a FAANG) company for over 12 years (20+ years working professionally). During that time I've proven myself have good ideas even when they are controversial, perform above average, and admit when I've been wrong or failed.
I probably get paid less I could elsewhere, and there is probably some big fish in a small pond effect going on, but part of the the reason I stay is that one thing I don't have to worry about is psychological safety.
Keep thinking that…
Facts on the ground change all of the time. Never get complacent or fall for the “we are family” bullshit.
Facts on the ground change all of the time. Never get complacent or fall for the “we are family” bullshit.
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There are two bands: too junior to matter, and senior enough to be a replacement threat to an insecure boss.
When you're in either of those two bands, you're a layoff target.
When you're in either of those two bands, you're a layoff target.
I did not, so I took an offer at a different company.
The amount of derision and defensive comments is kind of interesting. There are two groups it's seems.
Yeah, it's hard and unless I am critical to operations or revenue I'm worried.
or 2 - what do you mean? Its work, nbd. Why should I.
---
the latter seems like the kind of person who probably will be let go imo.
Yeah, it's hard and unless I am critical to operations or revenue I'm worried.
or 2 - what do you mean? Its work, nbd. Why should I.
---
the latter seems like the kind of person who probably will be let go imo.
I am an American, so of course not.
You know we do have welfare/unemployment/rental assistance too, right?
I would argue that a disproportionate number of FAANG employees have lifestyle crept outside the realm where existing social programs could be helpful. Healthcare in this country is still practically tied to your employer (or super expensive cobra) and in this industry that employment is likely at-will, so that assistance doesn’t feel sufficient. At least not for a country that purports to be the world’s primary economic engine (maybe at exporting exceptionalism).
We have universal healthcare too (at least in California):
https://www.medi-cal.ca.gov
Yeah and it's paltry, not easy to get, and often not applicable if you made above $X dollars.
Gap health insurance (COBRA) is also absurdly expensive.
By comparison, I live in Canada now and I'm covered by provincial healthcare no matter what, and I had "transit insurance" aka COBRA Canada through the same provider who did our healthcare and dental stuff which was billed at the same rate I paid before, albeit with slightly less benefits. Maybe $110/month CAD.
Was also eligible for COVID AID just by having any sort of job impact. Covered my half of the rent for 3 months.
Gap health insurance (COBRA) is also absurdly expensive.
By comparison, I live in Canada now and I'm covered by provincial healthcare no matter what, and I had "transit insurance" aka COBRA Canada through the same provider who did our healthcare and dental stuff which was billed at the same rate I paid before, albeit with slightly less benefits. Maybe $110/month CAD.
Was also eligible for COVID AID just by having any sort of job impact. Covered my half of the rent for 3 months.
UEI took nearly 4 months before it started paying out for my wife last year (Colorado). Make sure you have emergency savings. If she had been single or the sole earner for a household, she would have been screwed.
25 years programming. Not sure I have ever felt psychologically unsafe. Just a job for me.
Yes but my manager makes it an absolute top priority. It takes a lot of work and other managers who were basically OK but balancing priorities ultimately let that safety get off the rails.
What do you mean by balancing priorities?
Everything else for the manager might prioritize culturally, like getting the team to move to a new tech, integrating across geographies, or hitting some big corporate level goal
I feel psychological safety from my bank account, but I also get paid well.
If you have enough money to bridge a year, worrying about job safety is irrational.
What does that even mean?
Do you mean "Do you feel like you're going to be fired?"
No, not at the moment...
Otherwise, please be more specific...
Do you mean "Do you feel like you're going to be fired?"
No, not at the moment...
Otherwise, please be more specific...
I reject the premise of the question.