Dual Coincidence is likely the most complex electromechanical game(newatlas.com)
newatlas.com
Dual Coincidence is likely the most complex electromechanical game
https://newatlas.com/good-thinking/dual-coincidence-five-way-pinball-electromechanical-game/
62 comments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PainStation
I am upset that this excites me.
I am upset that this excites me.
I've played this at the museum in Berlin. Very fun game. And it really does hurt, I remember my buddy's wrist was practically raw from getting slapped by the thing so many times.
This seems cool, but the article and the artists' web site don't show the game actually being played, only short snippets that don't provide much context.
The game works fine, actually. It's getting played every day. I just spent so long getting it working that I never got good documentation. I have, like, a thousand photos of solder joints, pinout labels, the moment when the problem happens, etc. I recently stitched together some of the phone videos I took in the middle of the night while I was there and working on it.
There will be good documentation at some point. But not yet.
Hey, Andy, welcome to HN! DC looks pretty awesome.
Yep, and on those snippets it looks like a bland pinball with "something" in the middle of those pinball tables.
That "something" also got kind of underdeveloped in the article. It's a crazy system for moving balls aka resources from any machine into any machine. If you look closely at it, there's a lot going on :) Each one is made from a bunch of layers of acrylic with channels for the zillions of lights inside, and the solenoids to push out trapped balls, and also inductive sensors to detect if a ball is in there. It would be neat to see this type of exchanger incorporated into other pinball games! Although, given pinball designers' sometimes overly serious nature, it might not happen any time soon...
To be fair, the playfields are pretty simple. But it's also my very first game. And it's nuts. I feel pretty happy about how it's worked out.
> Dual Coincidence is capable of being played in this manner, although because of setbacks such as Covid-19, a global microchip shortage and a major earthquake in Mexico, it's still awaiting its full set of features – those may be in place within the year.
This is likely key reason for no gameplay footage.
This is likely key reason for no gameplay footage.
here is a video of the game in action:
https://vimeo.com/784903495/2bcad6725d?embedded=true&source=...
https://vimeo.com/784903495/2bcad6725d?embedded=true&source=...
... Which still doesn't really show any gameplay at all.
The article says that the full gameplay is not possible yet because of shortages of chips that were intended to be used in the construction. So it is a work in progress, apparently.
That is most likely why there's not a good gameplay video.
That is most likely why there's not a good gameplay video.
Chips doesn't sound like electromechanical to me?
If something with chips counts as electromechanical, then e.g. a flight simulator or racing game with force feedback joystick and seat is a way more complex electromechanical game
If something with chips counts as electromechanical, then e.g. a flight simulator or racing game with force feedback joystick and seat is a way more complex electromechanical game
I'd say the difference is, in that flight simulator you could take away the electromechanical elements and still have a fully playable and enjoyable game. Having the electromechanical elements enhances the experience, but isn't necessary. Pinball, though, electrically controlled machinery is an inherent part of the game.
> In any case, it's still an incredibly complex setup. According to Cavatorta, Dual Coincidence incorporates 17 computers (running about 12,000 lines of code), six servo motors, 10 optical sensors, 12 rotary encoders, 35 inductive sensors, 75 switches, 115 solenoid actuators and 704 channels of lighting.
Depends on what the chips are. There are chips that are just a number of logic circuits duplicated in a single DIP package for convenience. I'd still class things like that as electromechanical since it's all still deeply hardware based.
ICs can absolutely be used in electromechanical systems. Controlling motors, fans, or solenoids are a few examples.
Force feedback in a joystick doesn't strike me as "mechanical" enough to count as "electromechanical" though.
Force feedback in a joystick doesn't strike me as "mechanical" enough to count as "electromechanical" though.
The parent post complained about the limited video of gameplay. And my response was about that video.
I said nothing about whether the game was or was not truly "electro-mechanical".
That said, I do think it's unfortunate that HN discussions tend so often to focus on these sorts of disagreements rather than focusing on the achievement or creations being shown. This is not a court room, where exacting definitions and adherence to them is so important.
I said nothing about whether the game was or was not truly "electro-mechanical".
That said, I do think it's unfortunate that HN discussions tend so often to focus on these sorts of disagreements rather than focusing on the achievement or creations being shown. This is not a court room, where exacting definitions and adherence to them is so important.
> I said nothing about whether the game was or was not truly "electro-mechanical".
Indeed you did not.
Likewise no one “accused” you of that grievous transgression.
As a this is not a courtroom, perhaps it was more an observation than a charge to be defended.
Chips you say? Reminds me, chips aren’t technically electromechanical are they? No no friend, they are not! In fact, it contains 17 computers . 17 computers, but only 12k lines of source? Yes feels low,…
And so on, like a conversation? Where the contradictions are not accusation but invitation.
Indeed you did not.
Likewise no one “accused” you of that grievous transgression.
As a this is not a courtroom, perhaps it was more an observation than a charge to be defended.
Chips you say? Reminds me, chips aren’t technically electromechanical are they? No no friend, they are not! In fact, it contains 17 computers . 17 computers, but only 12k lines of source? Yes feels low,…
And so on, like a conversation? Where the contradictions are not accusation but invitation.
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This is a $300,000 piece of applied art, but the "Ad" or review video doesn't make it come alive.
Surely Andy (the designer) can find a reasonable video guy that can do a great job without breaking the bank ?
Surely Andy (the designer) can find a reasonable video guy that can do a great job without breaking the bank ?
It will be documented well eventually. But I've been deep in the other commissions since then. It hasn't been a priority until this article gave it some exposure.
With a claim like that in the title, I would at least expect a comparison to other electromechanical games and a discussion on why this would be the most complex one.
It actually doesn’t seem to qualify as an electromechanical pinball machine at all. Given the 17 computers in control and modern playfield mechanisms and sensors, it is almost certainly considered a solid state pinball machine.
EM machines use much older tech - look at Gottlieb machines from the 40s-70s. Even they switched to SS by the end of the 70s
EM machines use much older tech - look at Gottlieb machines from the 40s-70s. Even they switched to SS by the end of the 70s
That's a pinball-specific nomenclature. From the outside, all the games are "EM": the primary nouns and verbs of gameplay occur relative to those mechanisms. The distinctions of "SS" and "DMD" exist mostly to describe the shifts in rulesets, servicability and audiovisual feedback.
Electromechanical as opposed to video, not meaning 'no computers'.
I think y’all are both right and I appreciate the additional contexts. It’s just awkward to headline the article with a term that has a pinball-specific usage and not define it or dig into it a bit more.
I’m super impressed though Andy, did you use MPF or something else to program it? I’m only just dipping my toes into building my own pin, it’s quite intimidating realizing the breadth of skills required.
EDIT: another post clarified that it is on MPF - nice!
I’m super impressed though Andy, did you use MPF or something else to program it? I’m only just dipping my toes into building my own pin, it’s quite intimidating realizing the breadth of skills required.
EDIT: another post clarified that it is on MPF - nice!
It was prototyped on MPF. But I later refactored and used a more direct API for the P3-ROC. Because these games are nothing like typical pinball. And because I'm allergic to frameworks. The direct API isn't public but I can share it with you if you want.
Nice! Direct access seems like the way to go if you're not worrying about the single player modes and shot structures, and if all the sound is from the physical interactions. I appreciate the API info offer, but I've already got the FAST Neuron controller, so I think it's a different path for me
The individual playfields aren't very complicated compared to typical pinball. But all of the elements together makes for a lot of logic, channels, and code.
I love the edge-lit acrylic score display. The depth effect when it’s changing is really special, and I say this as someone who really doesn’t care for acrylic.
Very awesome. But I am still waiting for someone to design video game machine like the one from James's Bond Never Say Never Again, where failure to protect your land from cruise missiles cost you electric shock to your hands!
Call me odd, but I think such game would be tremendously popular!! Obviously before you play you will have to sign waiver but hey I guess YOLO!
Call me odd, but I think such game would be tremendously popular!! Obviously before you play you will have to sign waiver but hey I guess YOLO!
It's on its 2.5th version already, check out links elsewhere in this thread ! ;)
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Probably not the most complex. Look at some Japanese arcade games with jackpots.[1]
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0OnmhhFk9g
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0OnmhhFk9g
Most of that will just be microcontroller driven instead of being electromechanical though.
I'd love to see a virtual simulated version on 5 standard arcade cabinets, the physical aspect definitely adds something, but the concept is cool enough that it would still be amazing just as a LAN party type game.
Heya, I worked for Andy doing most of the electronics on this project so if you have any questions about that, fire away!
On the art side, I can emphasize some of what was probably too subtle in the article: A major part of this project was the sound. Andy is after all, largely a sound artist/sculptor! Look at this current piece "Whale" in the MIT Museum, his instruments, etc. https://andycavatorta.com/
He went through a lot of thought to come up with the frequencies/scale, and the playing pattern of the chimes.
He also went through great trouble and expense to make this pinball game have no speakers/digital sounds. The sound all comes from the clacking of the pinball relays (which yes, are driven by RPi's running Mission Pinball Framework) and most important, the 25 giant metal chimes in the center! One of his other people in his studio did the crazy work of grinding them all to just the right lengths and tuned them with a stroboscopic tuner. It took days and though she wore a full freezer suit (because it was February in Brooklyn and the heat was being repaired in the building after the building owner died and his brother inherited it and had to take over), she would finish the day with aluminum dust embedded in all of her clothing.
Also, the tangible nature of the piece was a stark reaction to the other pieces in the show, and in general, his experience as an installation artist in the Boston Museum of Science. Nowadays, so many installations are just tablets. Or maybe a PC with a mouse, etc. He wanted something more tactile than that, that moves, and makes its own side.
Several people have commented on the acrylic displays and Andy's general overengineering. Yes, his style is almost always overengineered, love or it hate it, that's part of the work. He likes big, heavy, arduous things. personally theorize it has something to do with his gigantic muscle growth genetics, though he does not work out!
The Acrylic displays were scaled up from some person's random Arduino project.... and it turns out the upscaling was full of surprises! We needed a ton of extra light to make them glow. There weren't many LED strips available that were narrow enough, and a bunch of them broke in transit to Mexico. This was due to the sharp edges of the acrylic vibrating and sawing through them! And receiving a package of replacements from DigiKey was not simple. He had to do a lot of paperwork and travel for hours in an Uber to get the package of replacements. Also, just keep those pieces of acrylic clean, dust-free and hand-grease free was a pain! Also here's another secret: Andy almost never uses CAD for his projects. This was his first, or one of his first big projects with CAD and he made the classic mistake of designing the container for the acrylic displays with no space for fasteners! Fortunately, he managed to make it work. Behind the rear of those displays are dozens and dozens of mini boards with FET drivers and constant current drivers... all driven from cascaded shift registers!
On the art side, I can emphasize some of what was probably too subtle in the article: A major part of this project was the sound. Andy is after all, largely a sound artist/sculptor! Look at this current piece "Whale" in the MIT Museum, his instruments, etc. https://andycavatorta.com/
He went through a lot of thought to come up with the frequencies/scale, and the playing pattern of the chimes.
He also went through great trouble and expense to make this pinball game have no speakers/digital sounds. The sound all comes from the clacking of the pinball relays (which yes, are driven by RPi's running Mission Pinball Framework) and most important, the 25 giant metal chimes in the center! One of his other people in his studio did the crazy work of grinding them all to just the right lengths and tuned them with a stroboscopic tuner. It took days and though she wore a full freezer suit (because it was February in Brooklyn and the heat was being repaired in the building after the building owner died and his brother inherited it and had to take over), she would finish the day with aluminum dust embedded in all of her clothing.
Also, the tangible nature of the piece was a stark reaction to the other pieces in the show, and in general, his experience as an installation artist in the Boston Museum of Science. Nowadays, so many installations are just tablets. Or maybe a PC with a mouse, etc. He wanted something more tactile than that, that moves, and makes its own side.
Several people have commented on the acrylic displays and Andy's general overengineering. Yes, his style is almost always overengineered, love or it hate it, that's part of the work. He likes big, heavy, arduous things. personally theorize it has something to do with his gigantic muscle growth genetics, though he does not work out!
The Acrylic displays were scaled up from some person's random Arduino project.... and it turns out the upscaling was full of surprises! We needed a ton of extra light to make them glow. There weren't many LED strips available that were narrow enough, and a bunch of them broke in transit to Mexico. This was due to the sharp edges of the acrylic vibrating and sawing through them! And receiving a package of replacements from DigiKey was not simple. He had to do a lot of paperwork and travel for hours in an Uber to get the package of replacements. Also, just keep those pieces of acrylic clean, dust-free and hand-grease free was a pain! Also here's another secret: Andy almost never uses CAD for his projects. This was his first, or one of his first big projects with CAD and he made the classic mistake of designing the container for the acrylic displays with no space for fasteners! Fortunately, he managed to make it work. Behind the rear of those displays are dozens and dozens of mini boards with FET drivers and constant current drivers... all driven from cascaded shift registers!
My cousin used to collect and restoring old electromechanical pinballs. They're actually pretty neat to look inside up close.
If anyone is interested, I searched up this video that explains the insides of an electromechanical pinball machine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBI1taVj3tI
If anyone is interested, I searched up this video that explains the insides of an electromechanical pinball machine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBI1taVj3tI
> "I'm growing corn, and at some point I'm going to need new shoes," explains Cavatorta. "And now I have to trade some of my corn – which is represented as pinballs – with the person who makes shoes.
Pinball mixed with Agricola sounds like a niche product, so something I would expect from the MIT Media Lab.
Pinball mixed with Agricola sounds like a niche product, so something I would expect from the MIT Media Lab.
Building your own pinball game is challenging! Here's a site to get you started:
https://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
https://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
It's all amazing, but that edge lit layered number display is really something special!
Immediately reminds me of Joust [1]. But looks like this has a more unique ruleset.
[1]: https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1316.
[1]: https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1316.
That’s massive (and cyberpunk)! But the description is not clear, or I don’t understand, all the 5 players play together or one against each other to reach the best score?
It was hard for the journalist to summarize without getting too wordy. Here's how it works.
The game starts and scores like normal pinball. Each playfield also produces a resource [corn|carpentry|medicine|shoes|water] by playing. The carousel at the head of the game represents resources from others as balls. You need one of each in your carousel to be healthy and capable. These resources expire as you play, and you cannot get a new playfield ball until you replenish them by trading with other players for them. So you are playing and then having to stop and negotiate with other players.It's got an unpredictable social component.
There is a second round in which everybody is using money and the transactions happen without social complications.
This is mostly explained by just-in-time illuminated signage inside the playfield.
It's fun to play. But it's missing a lot of things the pinball purists care about. It's not designed to be a superior pinball game. It's about getting inside of two different dynamics of production and trade.
Also, the game is in a simplified state at the moment because I ran out of time dealing with the endless challenges. But this are the rules as designed.
The game starts and scores like normal pinball. Each playfield also produces a resource [corn|carpentry|medicine|shoes|water] by playing. The carousel at the head of the game represents resources from others as balls. You need one of each in your carousel to be healthy and capable. These resources expire as you play, and you cannot get a new playfield ball until you replenish them by trading with other players for them. So you are playing and then having to stop and negotiate with other players.It's got an unpredictable social component.
There is a second round in which everybody is using money and the transactions happen without social complications.
This is mostly explained by just-in-time illuminated signage inside the playfield.
It's fun to play. But it's missing a lot of things the pinball purists care about. It's not designed to be a superior pinball game. It's about getting inside of two different dynamics of production and trade.
Also, the game is in a simplified state at the moment because I ran out of time dealing with the endless challenges. But this are the rules as designed.
I believe it's a demonstration of economics, in that... it could go either way. I do want to believe it's a game where if everyone works together, everyone will get a high score together - demonstrating selfish vs selflessness in economics.
You could read the article? Players each have a score. What they do with that is up to them.
> Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that".
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Fair. Thanks.
I remember seeing the /r/pinball threads on this, replete with pin fans complaining about how simple the playfield was. Nice to see it reaching completion.
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The complexity for its own sake reminds me of some projects I've worked on before. Cool as art, but terrible engineering.
It's also the heaviest pinball game in the world. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
there is still ample unexplored design space in the realm of pinball.
Misuse of the term “electromechanical” in this context and honestly rather simplistic pinball playfields.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PainStation