Ask HN: Is there any way to fix online dating?
20 comments
"Men want what they want and women want what they want and nothing changes that."
Well, societal/cultural pressures and customs highly shape this. One could use this knowledge to select candidates from specific bagrounds that are likely to share values.
Well, societal/cultural pressures and customs highly shape this. One could use this knowledge to select candidates from specific bagrounds that are likely to share values.
In my experience you need three conditions to make online dating successful as a guy.
1. Location (medium to large city)
2. Great pictures
3. Moderate texting ability and confidence (easiest one)
If you have all those and it isn’t working then you’re probably not likely to have success online dating. It’s too superficial you can’t stand out.
If that’s you it can make a huge difference approaching girls in the real world. You automatically standout just by doing that since guys now all just wanna do online dating and are afraid to.
Whatever you do don’t stress yourself out over unsuccessfully online dating and becoming obsessed with it. I’ve seen guys determine their sexual value solely through online dating which is nonsensical. As soon as you start talking to someone in the real world there are at least a dozen more avenues which you have to showcase yourself.
Just compare it to a job interview conducted through text and a face to face interview.
1. Location (medium to large city)
2. Great pictures
3. Moderate texting ability and confidence (easiest one)
If you have all those and it isn’t working then you’re probably not likely to have success online dating. It’s too superficial you can’t stand out.
If that’s you it can make a huge difference approaching girls in the real world. You automatically standout just by doing that since guys now all just wanna do online dating and are afraid to.
Whatever you do don’t stress yourself out over unsuccessfully online dating and becoming obsessed with it. I’ve seen guys determine their sexual value solely through online dating which is nonsensical. As soon as you start talking to someone in the real world there are at least a dozen more avenues which you have to showcase yourself.
Just compare it to a job interview conducted through text and a face to face interview.
I think the problem is going from completely anonymous to a date. You could be putting yourself in a really vulnerable position with a rando. There's really no proof this person is not a psychopath, to put it bluntly.
In social groups, there's at least some social proof of this other person is likely safe. You know them by reputation. You may even be introduced to them or someone vouched for them.
IMO, for this reason, things like meetup groups, or other IRL social groups, with some level of group norms, where relationships can develop organically (into friendships, or whatever), with really no expectation of dating are probably the most appropriate. I met my wife in a local hiking group. It was its own social circle, and we went on trips together. Some people dated. Some people became friends, etc...
So, I guess, no there's no way to fix online dating :) unless you can solve the underlying social proof problem that develops more organically IRL settings.
In social groups, there's at least some social proof of this other person is likely safe. You know them by reputation. You may even be introduced to them or someone vouched for them.
IMO, for this reason, things like meetup groups, or other IRL social groups, with some level of group norms, where relationships can develop organically (into friendships, or whatever), with really no expectation of dating are probably the most appropriate. I met my wife in a local hiking group. It was its own social circle, and we went on trips together. Some people dated. Some people became friends, etc...
So, I guess, no there's no way to fix online dating :) unless you can solve the underlying social proof problem that develops more organically IRL settings.
Finally a use for the metaverse!
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Online dating is a heaven for women. Unlimited number of guys that message them, to choose from.
For men, it works for the top 10%. The remaining are left to scrap around.
Boils down to looks in top 3 pictures.
For men, it works for the top 10%. The remaining are left to scrap around.
Boils down to looks in top 3 pictures.
"Is there any way to fix online dating?"
What specifically do you think is broken about it?
What specifically do you think is broken about it?
My guess is that there's waaaay more men on online dating platforms than women
The numbers I saw for tinder are about 2:1 men:women. But how is this manifest as a problem? Men are typically the ones initiating advances regardless of online or offline, so I would expect to see higher participation rates in both spaces with relatively lower success rates compared to women.
To "fix" this, is something requiring gender parity in selection agency/opportunity. This is far beyond an online dating thing and requires deep societal changes. Even though Bumble has taken some steps to change the initiation process and still have a similar ratio.
To "fix" this, is something requiring gender parity in selection agency/opportunity. This is far beyond an online dating thing and requires deep societal changes. Even though Bumble has taken some steps to change the initiation process and still have a similar ratio.
Nope! As long there is anonymity of the users (.. even if the names are known) and the way it is presented to the users stays same, that long it won't be fixable.
One thing is the man searching.
By nature, we men are sexually aroused by vision and phantasma/movies/imagination with especially the latter one being selfamplifying.
So if you have a online dating website and the participants present them with only standing pictures and some bio and you have a chat by means of communication, the imagination will kick in.
One doesn't know and see what feelings the receiver have towards the written. Also, the answers can be misinterpreted by both sender and receiver. Resulting in even more arousment.
But, being aroused, our main brain shows DoS. So..
It won't be fixable as long there are men. Woman are differently aroused. Man2man and woman2woman works well, because same understanding.
One thing is the man searching.
By nature, we men are sexually aroused by vision and phantasma/movies/imagination with especially the latter one being selfamplifying.
So if you have a online dating website and the participants present them with only standing pictures and some bio and you have a chat by means of communication, the imagination will kick in.
One doesn't know and see what feelings the receiver have towards the written. Also, the answers can be misinterpreted by both sender and receiver. Resulting in even more arousment.
But, being aroused, our main brain shows DoS. So..
It won't be fixable as long there are men. Woman are differently aroused. Man2man and woman2woman works well, because same understanding.
I think it might be worth specifying what you feel needs to be fixed exactly. I can think of many problems with both online and offline dating, but I guess you have something specific in mind?
I met my boyfriend of 4 years through an app, and in general it was a pretty smooth process in my admittedly limited experience.
I met my boyfriend of 4 years through an app, and in general it was a pretty smooth process in my admittedly limited experience.
> my boyfriend
Would it be safe to assume you are either a woman, or a gay man?
I am in my late 30s, of average attractiveness, and below-average suaveness. If I open Grindr in a large city and create a profile with one of my cuter selfies, I get so many messages I literally would not be able to reply to all of them.
From what I've pieced together, that is not what would happen to the heterosexual version of me. Many men on dating sites will never be initially messaged by a woman. Various sources where dating apps have made their data public in aggregate, suggest women are about 80% less likely to send the first message than men are. So they have to always initiate. And then most women they send a message to never reply.
That must be incredibly demoralizing.
Would it be safe to assume you are either a woman, or a gay man?
I am in my late 30s, of average attractiveness, and below-average suaveness. If I open Grindr in a large city and create a profile with one of my cuter selfies, I get so many messages I literally would not be able to reply to all of them.
From what I've pieced together, that is not what would happen to the heterosexual version of me. Many men on dating sites will never be initially messaged by a woman. Various sources where dating apps have made their data public in aggregate, suggest women are about 80% less likely to send the first message than men are. So they have to always initiate. And then most women they send a message to never reply.
That must be incredibly demoralizing.
Yes, a woman.
I see what you mean. I tried out a few dating apps and it was surprising how many messages were coming in from different directions. I just didn't have the time or energy to talk to all these people at once. I wasn't swiping on many people at the same time in the first place, but even juggling 2 or 3 conversations would be too much sometimes (especially if I was already having one really interesting chat with someone else, that kind of got all my attention). This resulted in some contacts being ignored, especially if all I got from them was a "Hey" or something, which unfortunately only contributes to the demoralizing aspect of not being replied to.
One app where I didn't feel that pressure was Bumble. At least at the time the rule was that on Bumble, women had to message first (not sure if it still works like that?) I liked that because it created a slower pace - I was able to swipe on people whose profiles I liked, but then take more time to initiate the conversation once matches came in. That also made me more selective about who I matched with; knowing I'd have to approach them, I'd look for profiles that had some especially interesting or unique information for me to use for an opener (because I didn't want to be one of those people just sending "hey").
So that "I message first" aspect was what made me prefer Bumble specifically. Less potential bombardment seemed to create a more slow-paced, thoughtful, selective experience.
I ended up only going on 4 dates from my dating app experimentation, one of whom became my current boyfriend. By "smooth process" in my previous reply I suppose I was mostly thinking about this part. I went into it because I hadn't really dated before. I mostly just wanted to meet interesting people and see what it's like to actually go on a date, not so much for a relationship. There are so many horror stories related to safety, meeting jerks, meeting people who didn't look like their profiles, etc. Everyone I met was luckily a really decent guy and I had no bad dates, even if it didn't go anywhere.
I see what you mean. I tried out a few dating apps and it was surprising how many messages were coming in from different directions. I just didn't have the time or energy to talk to all these people at once. I wasn't swiping on many people at the same time in the first place, but even juggling 2 or 3 conversations would be too much sometimes (especially if I was already having one really interesting chat with someone else, that kind of got all my attention). This resulted in some contacts being ignored, especially if all I got from them was a "Hey" or something, which unfortunately only contributes to the demoralizing aspect of not being replied to.
One app where I didn't feel that pressure was Bumble. At least at the time the rule was that on Bumble, women had to message first (not sure if it still works like that?) I liked that because it created a slower pace - I was able to swipe on people whose profiles I liked, but then take more time to initiate the conversation once matches came in. That also made me more selective about who I matched with; knowing I'd have to approach them, I'd look for profiles that had some especially interesting or unique information for me to use for an opener (because I didn't want to be one of those people just sending "hey").
So that "I message first" aspect was what made me prefer Bumble specifically. Less potential bombardment seemed to create a more slow-paced, thoughtful, selective experience.
I ended up only going on 4 dates from my dating app experimentation, one of whom became my current boyfriend. By "smooth process" in my previous reply I suppose I was mostly thinking about this part. I went into it because I hadn't really dated before. I mostly just wanted to meet interesting people and see what it's like to actually go on a date, not so much for a relationship. There are so many horror stories related to safety, meeting jerks, meeting people who didn't look like their profiles, etc. Everyone I met was luckily a really decent guy and I had no bad dates, even if it didn't go anywhere.
I think the stark contrast of a guys matches/inbox to a girls matches/inbox is whats demoralising to most guys. I once read an apt expression for this where the men are thirsty in a desert and the women are thirsty in an ocean. I have all but given up on online dating and simply socialize in person. If I meet someone I like, I would just ask them out. If it works out great. if not hopefully I made the other person feel better about themselves.
Heh, I'm guessing the expression used a large body of water that isn't actually drinkable on purpose? That does indeed sound apt from both sides!
I think asking people out in person sounds like the ideal approach honestly.
I think asking people out in person sounds like the ideal approach honestly.
The issue is the incentives are to string along those who are willing to pay (usually men due to the supply-demand situation) for revenue.
Also there are just so many bots now, I've found the bots to be the main reason I stopped using the apps as it just keeps getting worse - trying to sell crypto, or advertise an OnlyFans or Instagram account, etc.
That's a hard problem to solve too, without tying it to digital national ID (where available), and there's no incentive to solve it since it bumps up the profile numbers.
Also there are just so many bots now, I've found the bots to be the main reason I stopped using the apps as it just keeps getting worse - trying to sell crypto, or advertise an OnlyFans or Instagram account, etc.
That's a hard problem to solve too, without tying it to digital national ID (where available), and there's no incentive to solve it since it bumps up the profile numbers.
You can of course meet somebody decent online with enough persistence, especially in a big city with a constant pool of new people, but the way things work online is bad for almost everybody except the very best looking men, who are able to use these apps to easily sleep with a constant pool of new women.
The best advice is to probably go hang out where women you want to meet hang out. Meet people in real life.
Go to bookstores. Do some volunteer work. Play in a coed sports league. Go to church.