Ask HN: Jobs with Meaning?
31 comments
I think there is an additional layer of complexity in understanding this topic because the scale of software at large companies breaks our concept of impact.
You might feel like you're really impacting the world if you directly helped 25 members of your local community. Your job improving reports in some division your company could be just as impactful, if not more, but you're so many layers separated from the impact of your work that you don't feel it or maybe even understand it at all.
I feel like we end up in a position as software developers where we don't feel impact unless we're having some part in massive global change impacting millions of people or advancing the technology frontier, but that's just not realistic for everyone to do.
I don't have an answer, but I do think about how your organization might be impacting lots of people's lives, so your seemingly small contribution might actually be significant.
You might feel like you're really impacting the world if you directly helped 25 members of your local community. Your job improving reports in some division your company could be just as impactful, if not more, but you're so many layers separated from the impact of your work that you don't feel it or maybe even understand it at all.
I feel like we end up in a position as software developers where we don't feel impact unless we're having some part in massive global change impacting millions of people or advancing the technology frontier, but that's just not realistic for everyone to do.
I don't have an answer, but I do think about how your organization might be impacting lots of people's lives, so your seemingly small contribution might actually be significant.
This somewhat evokes I, Pencil [1]. Seemingly unimpactful jobs make up some of the "innumerable antecedents" of virtually all other jobs, including the seemingly impactful ones. Clearly, by virtue of the fact that you're being paid, you're doing something that some person wants you to do. In a functional capitalist society, that person or people are also doing things that others want them to do. Whether we live in a functional capitalist society is open for debate, but assuming we do, that transitive relationship extends to satisfying the desires of the entire world. I realize this is not satisfying, but satisfaction is often irrational.
[1]: https://fee.org/resources/i-pencil/
[1]: https://fee.org/resources/i-pencil/
You can find jobs that have great tangible impact on the world and society.
You just cant get paid 200K a year doing that. Unless you're in defence industry, but I get the feeling that kinetic impact was not what you were looking for.
Problem with programmer recruitment is, imho, that Programmers have been sold this ideal that they are "Rockstars" that swoop in like super heros to save companies. Which is just not what programmers are today. Programmers, are the new industrial workers.
Better paid in most cases though.
I think if you have a lot of downtime, you should see if your company has a philanthropic department, and then volunteer to do help out thought it.
Salesforce where I work, has a pro bono projects portal for any NGO's that have Salesforce and need volunteers to help out. Sure you will not find complicated large projects, but the impact of just making a custom dashboard, report, or help create a mail campaign has actual real world impact.
Problem with programmer recruitment is, imho, that Programmers have been sold this ideal that they are "Rockstars" that swoop in like super heros to save companies. Which is just not what programmers are today. Programmers, are the new industrial workers.
Better paid in most cases though.
I think if you have a lot of downtime, you should see if your company has a philanthropic department, and then volunteer to do help out thought it.
Salesforce where I work, has a pro bono projects portal for any NGO's that have Salesforce and need volunteers to help out. Sure you will not find complicated large projects, but the impact of just making a custom dashboard, report, or help create a mail campaign has actual real world impact.
> I, like many of you, work on a project that doesn't really advance humankind. I work on a software product in a niche, within a niche, within a niche, to help a subset of large corporations process data a little bit more effectively during meetings.
Sounds like you're actually contributing to progress?
Also, the Apollo missions were actually just a part of a dick-measuring contest between the two leading empires at the time. Putting a man on the moon contributed nothing to nobody. Your job probably has much more meaning.
Sounds like you're actually contributing to progress?
Also, the Apollo missions were actually just a part of a dick-measuring contest between the two leading empires at the time. Putting a man on the moon contributed nothing to nobody. Your job probably has much more meaning.
Right. I think OP might be conflating "meaning" with "working on a skilled team in order to achieve an audacious goal". Both are fine, but you can have one without the other.
>Putting a man on the moon contributed nothing to nobody.
I think that’s a little dismissive. The whole of the Apollo missions definitely contributed directly to our understanding of physics, and engineering. It led us to solve problems that otherwise probably wouldn’t have been addressed. And perhaps more important than anything else it inspired people to be interested in science, and exploration.
I think that’s a little dismissive. The whole of the Apollo missions definitely contributed directly to our understanding of physics, and engineering. It led us to solve problems that otherwise probably wouldn’t have been addressed. And perhaps more important than anything else it inspired people to be interested in science, and exploration.
One suggestion: don’t consider sacrificing a 200k income to be so bad. The vast majority of people get by on much less.
If you like your job, another option is to donate money instead of switching jobs.
Maybe the some time to contemplate your values, and then see where there might be a need for your skills (or money).
If you like your job, another option is to donate money instead of switching jobs.
Maybe the some time to contemplate your values, and then see where there might be a need for your skills (or money).
No jobs are meaningless, whether you’re writing software, pumping gas, or flipping hamburgers. Yes, we’d all like to have gone to the moon, cure cancer, or whatever. It’s not how the world works. The question is, does the money or the work make you happier. If you want to work in aerospace, give up the money. Otherwise, realize you it sounds like you have a nice situation. If you want to keep the money, pursue other avenues for self fulfillment.
True story, existential longing compelled me to leave a dream job, and I
regret my idiocy every day.
Tell us more, what do you mean? If it was a dream job why did you feel such a longing?
Dream = high money, low stress.
"I work on a software product in a niche, within a niche, within a niche, to help a subset of large corporations process data a little bit more effectively during meetings."
Even a small increase in efficiency in a large company can be worth a lot of money, and that money will be spread across employees, customers, and shareholders. So your work benefits people, even if it does so indirectly. In a simple economy where everyone is a farmer or produces goods for farmers, it's easy to understand what people are contributing. In an advanced economy this is more difficult to understand, but the specialization of an advanced economy creates much higher living standards.
Even a small increase in efficiency in a large company can be worth a lot of money, and that money will be spread across employees, customers, and shareholders. So your work benefits people, even if it does so indirectly. In a simple economy where everyone is a farmer or produces goods for farmers, it's easy to understand what people are contributing. In an advanced economy this is more difficult to understand, but the specialization of an advanced economy creates much higher living standards.
Depending on your company, you might be able to start a project within the company that is either open source, or will be open sourced and work on that during slow times.
It can be tricky to find meaningful jobs but with open source it flips the other way around and it's actually hard to ship open source at scale without people using it to help others (though seldom the only use).
Bonus points if you spend time thinking about what would be the most helpful as well as what would be the most interesting to work on (to keep your interest through the boring days).
It can be tricky to find meaningful jobs but with open source it flips the other way around and it's actually hard to ship open source at scale without people using it to help others (though seldom the only use).
Bonus points if you spend time thinking about what would be the most helpful as well as what would be the most interesting to work on (to keep your interest through the boring days).
I believe.... You're looking for purpose. Not utility or excellence.
I am in a similar situation with a few life long proposes.
Be a great father, husband, and always available to help my neighbors.
Fixing a fence for a neighbor on ten minutes notice was a highlight last month. I was gone for an hour with my tools. Wife didn't mind even though I bailed on lunch. Kid understood. Daddy has to be a hero.
My job situation allowed all of the above. I'm not excited that I build CI pipelines but a great means to an end.
I am in a similar situation with a few life long proposes.
Be a great father, husband, and always available to help my neighbors.
Fixing a fence for a neighbor on ten minutes notice was a highlight last month. I was gone for an hour with my tools. Wife didn't mind even though I bailed on lunch. Kid understood. Daddy has to be a hero.
My job situation allowed all of the above. I'm not excited that I build CI pipelines but a great means to an end.
I'm on the same boat albeit for a fraction of your compensation.
What can I say. At least I moved from net-bad jobs (lotteries) to net-neutral ones (networking). That's the best I managed.
Is yours a bullshit job as per the definition in the famous article? Can't tell. Maybe it's more a case of alienation from the end product.
What can I say. At least I moved from net-bad jobs (lotteries) to net-neutral ones (networking). That's the best I managed.
Is yours a bullshit job as per the definition in the famous article? Can't tell. Maybe it's more a case of alienation from the end product.
Meaning is not an easy thing to communicate. Each philosophy puts meaning in different places, meaning of words, meaning of an image, meaning in work, ect.
Corporate jobs don't often have the capacity to provide a meaningful role. I hazard the suggestion, an internal sense of meaning can better cultivated from other sources.
What worked for me internally was a lot of literature and imaginative study that resulted in a view that fits boring and exciting tasks alike in a larger, structured meaning.
Nobody can really answer or help properly, unless someone close to you, can see the real 'me' and meaning in you and what you might explore next.
Also practically speaking meaningful jobs arent always the best places to work. Meaning often (not always) is an end in itself that does not naturally create profitable business models.
Corporate jobs don't often have the capacity to provide a meaningful role. I hazard the suggestion, an internal sense of meaning can better cultivated from other sources.
What worked for me internally was a lot of literature and imaginative study that resulted in a view that fits boring and exciting tasks alike in a larger, structured meaning.
Nobody can really answer or help properly, unless someone close to you, can see the real 'me' and meaning in you and what you might explore next.
Also practically speaking meaningful jobs arent always the best places to work. Meaning often (not always) is an end in itself that does not naturally create profitable business models.
+1
I've also struggled with this question since working in industry. There isn't an objective answer to this. I think it largely depends on the narrative you tell yourself about the work you do.
IMO, the "meaningful", tangible problems in the world today are social problems. Most programming jobs _are_ the same from this point of view because as engineers, we make tools. We can hope that these tools are used for "good", but at the end of the day, they are existentially and morally neutral.
That being said, I think cybersecurity is a safe bet. Or sacrifice the 200k and go the teaching route.
IMO, the "meaningful", tangible problems in the world today are social problems. Most programming jobs _are_ the same from this point of view because as engineers, we make tools. We can hope that these tools are used for "good", but at the end of the day, they are existentially and morally neutral.
That being said, I think cybersecurity is a safe bet. Or sacrifice the 200k and go the teaching route.
What about some freelancing on the side? You can find smaller projects with a more tangible and meaningful impact immediately, even if smaller in scope or scale.
To answer your questions: Yes, no.
To suggest: Go and pivot your career into aerospace, contracting or full time. No better time than now as the resurgence of aerospace, SpaceX, and related startups is a good sign. You could always go back to your job/industry (don't burn your bridges if you want to play it safe and have a plan b). Good luck
To suggest: Go and pivot your career into aerospace, contracting or full time. No better time than now as the resurgence of aerospace, SpaceX, and related startups is a good sign. You could always go back to your job/industry (don't burn your bridges if you want to play it safe and have a plan b). Good luck
I always plug USDS and civic tech when I see questions like this one, but most USDSers make the maximum salary allowed under the civil service's general schedule, which is $183,500 in DC at present. There are a couple agencies that have their own pay schedules that can go a bit higher (CFPB is one), but anything in aerospace will be <$200K (unless you go to a contractor)
I went from a career that I felt not only did not advance humankind but was actively harming it to a new career with a job where I feel like I'm not really advancing humankind. Gotta say, the grass is greener. I sleep a lot better at night. Maybe some day I'll make the final leap and get a role where I feel like I'm actively working to make things better.
I think the meaning comes from within you. I talk all the time with people who have worked a string of prestigious jobs and they say things like "I realized I can't have any impact working at a FAANG" which may be true but that attitude seems to be constant even when the job is not content.
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Tangential: The astronauts struggled with life back on earth, post NASA…
> https://www.biography.com/scientists/buzz-aldrin-alcoholism-...
> https://www.biography.com/scientists/buzz-aldrin-alcoholism-...
I think what you might be looking for is urgency. If you're a high energy person, it can feel boring and unmotivating to work in an environment where nothing is needed from you on any non-distant timeframe.
That's my experience, anyway.
That's my experience, anyway.
Pick an industry you find meaningful and go work there, that's why I work in health. However be aware that tech jobs outside tech are:
* paid much worse
* less technically challenging
* considered less important
* paid much worse
* less technically challenging
* considered less important
> Jobs with Meaning?
Really short answer: ones where you get to own the fruits of your labor at the end of the day.
Really short answer: ones where you get to own the fruits of your labor at the end of the day.
> ... that doesn't really advance humankind.
How could you possibly know that?
How could you possibly know that?
My compensation is beyond what I ever imagined making 10 years ago. I work remotely, my job is not demanding, I have time during my day to do other things. Stress is also low.
I just feel like it's kind of a waste of my existence though. I can contribute to things, I can help society, etc - but I kind of feel like I have these golden handcuffs. Why leave when my situation is so good, despite doing basically nothing useful?
Recently listened to this podcast called "13 minutes to the moon". A really interesting dive in to the lives and efforts of the engineers that made the Apollo missions possible. They really did something with their engineering skills. Programmers were a huge part in the mission success.
I however, don't really feel like the mission I'm helping currently is meaningful. And it seems like most programming jobs are the same.
Not really sure what I'm asking. I guess a simple TLDR would be -
Are there any coding jobs with actual meaning out there? Is it possible to take those on without sacrificing my income to <200k?
I had a large interest in aerospace contracting. It just seems like the paycut will be >50%, and I will not be able to work remotely anymore.
/endrant