Byte Mini PC Powered by AMD – Get notified when available(starlabs.systems)
starlabs.systems
Byte Mini PC Powered by AMD – Get notified when available
https://starlabs.systems/pages/byte
51 comments
Why is this any better than an ASRock DeskMini X300? AFAICT that option is cheaper and offers better storage options.
They advertise coreboot support, but on specifications it says CoreBoot is coming soon. AFAIK Coreboot does not support Zen3 or any recent AMD CPUs. How will they be able to offer it?
They advertise coreboot support, but on specifications it says CoreBoot is coming soon. AFAIK Coreboot does not support Zen3 or any recent AMD CPUs. How will they be able to offer it?
That DeskMini is a pretty attractive option at ~$160 for the barebones kit. I wonder if you could undervolt things enough to be passively cooled.
For a fanless version, you can buy https://www.cirrus7.com/en/produkte/cirrus7-incus/.
you can also fit a Noctua NF-A9x14 PWM fan in there, which provides a good balance of ventilation to noise ratio.
Looks like Coreboot support for 5000 series landed recently: https://www.phoronix.com/news/AMD-Open-Source-FW-2023
This is (very welcome) news to me. Hopefully Starlabs can actually bring it to market, because that would be a good differentiator.
“From 762,30€“ here.
So everyone is seeing a different price apparently.
Not sure if this is a social experiment or a joke. Or both.
So everyone is seeing a different price apparently.
Not sure if this is a social experiment or a joke. Or both.
I guess it's calculated on the fly based on a live feed of currency rates
They recognize your country of origin based on IP and calculates the correct VAT based on that. That's true for most stores in the EU. I see that you write in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35447307 that the tax is not included. They state that “The price that you see includes estimated VAT. The exact amount will be calculated at checkout.”
However, based on the other products in their store it is the same for me in the store and at checkout. Nothing fishy about this.
However, based on the other products in their store it is the same for me in the store and at checkout. Nothing fishy about this.
This might very well be the case.
Firmware updates for the BIOS, Embedded Controller and SSD are just a click away with the power of the LVFS.
Pretty awesome to see this become more common.
Pretty awesome to see this become more common.
It says it can use USB-C for power delivery but the only USB-C port is on the front of the device. Makes it seem like they expect most people to power it via the barrel plug.
Also, the APU used here is already fairly outdated for a mini PC. So I'm not sure what makes this valuable over the many other mini PC options.
Also, the APU used here is already fairly outdated for a mini PC. So I'm not sure what makes this valuable over the many other mini PC options.
Also I have noticed this trend where there is no audio output on the back. I don't want to connect my speakers to my monitor, or have a cable hanging off the front of the PC. A front port is convenient, but should not be the primary audio output.
If it weren't for headsets there probably wouldn't even be a jack on the front since most mini PCs are based on laptop hardware and not many run a separate analog jack to PC speakers these days to make it worthwhile.
While we’re at it, maybe Minis Forum could be a good alternative, price wise. I am thinking about getting one of their devices suitable for home lab.
P.S not affiliated, just curious.
https://www.minisforum.com/
P.S not affiliated, just curious.
https://www.minisforum.com/
I have 2 Minis Forum Z83s. They are as limited as expected (no speed deamon, small memory and storage, etc). But they're quite useful within those limits, tech support was far better than I expected, and they're cheap enough to be basically disposable. Which is good, as one of them died basically right after it went out of warranty. The other one is going strong. YMMV.
If only it came with 2x NBase-T or at least 2x2.5G...
Using USB-C for power is great! Smaller power supplies and no more non-standard connectors that are hard to replace.
True. If you have to sell with a cheap single voltage power adapter (instead of selling either completely without or with a more expensive USB PD one), you should at least have both inputs, the custom DC socket for your cheap wall-wart and a USB PD client for when the user wants to slim down the size of their power adapter zoo.
That's why I'm surprised they only include one USB-C port. If you use that for power input can't use it for anything else. I expect machines released in 2023 to have at least two especially if it supports USB-C power input.
One can buy small form factor/mini pc’s with not the latest hardware but reasonably powerful hardware on eBay from it recyclers for 1/4 the price.
I bought one of those Minisforums Mini PCs with a Ryzen processor like two years ago, it now sits collecting dust. This M1 Mac mini that I use as my daily runs circles around it in every performance metric.
I see this has open source firmware. Great. You will be giving up a lot with that chip compared to M1 though. Asashi Linux may not be 100% complete but I hear it is pretty good. Might warrant a consideration if you can run your software in the ARM world. In my mind there is just too much to give up when going back to such a legacy platform such as this one.
I see this has open source firmware. Great. You will be giving up a lot with that chip compared to M1 though. Asashi Linux may not be 100% complete but I hear it is pretty good. Might warrant a consideration if you can run your software in the ARM world. In my mind there is just too much to give up when going back to such a legacy platform such as this one.
Well, glad your M1 Mac Mini runs circles around some random mini PC. This is really great information, with detailed data that really shows how much better the M1 chip is than any other processor ever made. This really relates a lot to the system being reviewed too.
One thing Apple can't (or won't) compete on is price for RAM and storage.
I have 32GB of RAM and 1 TB of storage, that cost me $200 total. The CPU and barebones mini pc (5600G, ASRock DeskMini) I bought are about $200 each. So $600 total.
Meanwhile I can't even buy a base model M1 or M2 mac mini with 32 GB of RAM, and 24GB of RAM is $400. 1 TB of storage is another $400.
The Mac option turns out to be roughly twice as much, for a pretty comparable system (including single core speed!). Even if I want more storage, I can have it for an extra $100 or so.
I have 32GB of RAM and 1 TB of storage, that cost me $200 total. The CPU and barebones mini pc (5600G, ASRock DeskMini) I bought are about $200 each. So $600 total.
Meanwhile I can't even buy a base model M1 or M2 mac mini with 32 GB of RAM, and 24GB of RAM is $400. 1 TB of storage is another $400.
The Mac option turns out to be roughly twice as much, for a pretty comparable system (including single core speed!). Even if I want more storage, I can have it for an extra $100 or so.
I concede Apple does not sell low bandwidth spec parts. Only one bandwidth. What is the memory bandwidth of the AsRock compared to the Mac Mini? Is it a bottom binned spec? At this point it is well known that they solder the memory dies onto the chip to get a specific memory bandwidth that a slot would not be able to provide. Some of the magic of the M1 is due in part to this design.
Yes for storage the M1 is more opaque. They claim this is the only way they can provide truly secure trusted boot. Its questionable but at least the theory seems to be holding up. I give them the benefit of the doubt just because the machine truly feels like it is from the future. It is like the desktop perfected. If it was anything less than the rocket it is we'd be having a different conversation and I'd give more credence to your claims. As it stands to me, the value of the platform exceeds that additional memory/storage upcharge.
>>The Mac option turns out to be roughly twice as much, for a pretty comparable system (including single core speed!). Even if I want more storage, I can have it for an extra $100 or so.
Are you sure about this being "comparable"? This is so much legacy in these x86/64 designs that either they are slower per given clock or they have to compensate with increased fan speeds/power consumption. The minisforum I have was a popular Ryzen 5 machine being pushed by all the youtuber people two years ago. (Minisforum DMAF5). It was slow out of the box and is now even more slow about 2 years later. Even this system being advertised here has to use a GaN Charger to cover up the fact that they are needing a more powerful wattage than the equivalent Mac would need (65w vs ~45w) That right there is more evidence that the design can't possibly be more efficient than the M1. (not to mention the PSU is integrated into the case on the Mac!)
This is such a common trope with PC people, they ignore design and value it at 0.
Yes for storage the M1 is more opaque. They claim this is the only way they can provide truly secure trusted boot. Its questionable but at least the theory seems to be holding up. I give them the benefit of the doubt just because the machine truly feels like it is from the future. It is like the desktop perfected. If it was anything less than the rocket it is we'd be having a different conversation and I'd give more credence to your claims. As it stands to me, the value of the platform exceeds that additional memory/storage upcharge.
>>The Mac option turns out to be roughly twice as much, for a pretty comparable system (including single core speed!). Even if I want more storage, I can have it for an extra $100 or so.
Are you sure about this being "comparable"? This is so much legacy in these x86/64 designs that either they are slower per given clock or they have to compensate with increased fan speeds/power consumption. The minisforum I have was a popular Ryzen 5 machine being pushed by all the youtuber people two years ago. (Minisforum DMAF5). It was slow out of the box and is now even more slow about 2 years later. Even this system being advertised here has to use a GaN Charger to cover up the fact that they are needing a more powerful wattage than the equivalent Mac would need (65w vs ~45w) That right there is more evidence that the design can't possibly be more efficient than the M1. (not to mention the PSU is integrated into the case on the Mac!)
This is such a common trope with PC people, they ignore design and value it at 0.
Hey, looks like you got downvoted. Sorry that happened. I think you brought up some decent points about memory quality vs. quantity.
To answer your question, my memory is 3200MHz with probably not great latency compared to the Apple solution.
Someone else mentioned USB4 for external storage, which honestly isn't a terrible solution.
To answer your question, my memory is 3200MHz with probably not great latency compared to the Apple solution.
Someone else mentioned USB4 for external storage, which honestly isn't a terrible solution.
Given that a Mac Mini has USB 4 you could connect an M2 drive with an adapter and still get good perf. That still has some additional cost though, and doesn’t address RAM.
Do you know if TRIM works over USB 4 and if MacOS supports it? Would I also need to ensure the enclosure supports it?
I'm not the USB4 expert, but don't they support raw pcie? I imagine choice of enclosure is very important.
Heres hoping one day apple makes 16gb the default in all computers.
I looked a bit at how AMD is doing vs. Apple. These current chips are all 65W TDP and up:
https://www.amd.com/en/processors/ryzen-for-creators#
(vs. the Byte Mini's 45W), but they mostly have base frequencies above 4.4GHz. One of the slower chips in the current lineup beats the M2 on absolute performance (with a higher TDP):
https://versus.com/en/amd-ryzen-7-7700-vs-apple-m2
It's per core speed is comparable, but it has twice as many cores.
This old (2018) chip is 45W, but it's boost is only 4GHz:
https://versus.com/en/amd-ryzen-7-2700e-vs-apple-m2
so that's a lower bound on the AMD side. It's about the same speed as the M2 when using all cores (half as fast per core).
Assuming they're targeting something AMD just released, and not something 5 years old, and the "up to 4.4GHz" is talking about base frequency, not turbo, then I'd expect this to be extremely competitive with the M2 Mac Mini. (As it better be, since it seems to be more expensive than the Mac!)
I wish they'd say what processors they are targeting.
https://www.amd.com/en/processors/ryzen-for-creators#
(vs. the Byte Mini's 45W), but they mostly have base frequencies above 4.4GHz. One of the slower chips in the current lineup beats the M2 on absolute performance (with a higher TDP):
https://versus.com/en/amd-ryzen-7-7700-vs-apple-m2
It's per core speed is comparable, but it has twice as many cores.
This old (2018) chip is 45W, but it's boost is only 4GHz:
https://versus.com/en/amd-ryzen-7-2700e-vs-apple-m2
so that's a lower bound on the AMD side. It's about the same speed as the M2 when using all cores (half as fast per core).
Assuming they're targeting something AMD just released, and not something 5 years old, and the "up to 4.4GHz" is talking about base frequency, not turbo, then I'd expect this to be extremely competitive with the M2 Mac Mini. (As it better be, since it seems to be more expensive than the Mac!)
I wish they'd say what processors they are targeting.
> I bought one of those Minisforums Mini PCs with a Ryzen processor like two years ago, it now sits collecting dust.
Cool. Sell it to me? I have tons of use cases for it.
Cool. Sell it to me? I have tons of use cases for it.
The value of the PC has probably dropped so low that I wouldn't feel happy giving it away for a paltry amount of money instead of holding onto it in the hopes of possibly doing something with it one day. I hoard old computers. You don't want to see my basement. For now it will sit collecting dust.
Looks nice but it's too bad they don't offer it with windows.
>windows
Why would you want to make it less useful?
Why would you want to make it less useful?
It must be nostalgia over the fight of getting a Windows license refund.
Anyone have a case suggestion for a mini NAS build?
I have built two mini-ITX NAS units.
One is a Jonsbo N1. The other a Jonsbo N2.
Jonsbo N1 is a pretty good case if the only thing you care about is getting a a small footprint as you can stand the case vertically.
Jonsbo N2 is a better more convenient case in a "cube" shape that feels smaller despite being similar in volume.
One of my builds uses an AM4 motherboard with unregistered ECC. With AM4 motherboards you're limited to any "pro" AM4 cpu, four SATA3 ports, and 2.5 gbe.
The other uses a used SuperMicro X10SDV-4C-TLN2F with registered ECC. With the Supermicro board you're stuck with an old integrated Xeon with insufficient cooling but get dual 10gbe ports and six SATA3 ports.
One is a Jonsbo N1. The other a Jonsbo N2.
Jonsbo N1 is a pretty good case if the only thing you care about is getting a a small footprint as you can stand the case vertically.
Jonsbo N2 is a better more convenient case in a "cube" shape that feels smaller despite being similar in volume.
One of my builds uses an AM4 motherboard with unregistered ECC. With AM4 motherboards you're limited to any "pro" AM4 cpu, four SATA3 ports, and 2.5 gbe.
The other uses a used SuperMicro X10SDV-4C-TLN2F with registered ECC. With the Supermicro board you're stuck with an old integrated Xeon with insufficient cooling but get dual 10gbe ports and six SATA3 ports.
I know, I know, it’s LTT, but I really loved the case in this NAS build they did recently: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=boKmZKTKXHc
The new N2 from that company also looks very interesting.
"From $771.00" ...
That's a bit steep. I am all for OSS but comparable machines (even newer than Renoir) are considerably cheaper.
I've been toying with the idea of grabbing a 5800u/H unit off AliExpress since Pis have been hard to get by, and kind of old and slow. There was a 5800H/16/512 for just 300 euro last weekend. Kind of regret not pulling the trigger on that one.