Interview with Andrew Kelley (Zig Creator) (2021)(corecursive.com)
corecursive.com
Interview with Andrew Kelley (Zig Creator) (2021)
https://corecursive.com/067-zig-with-andrew-kelley/
25 comments
Host here. Andrew was a great guest and inspired me to start a patreon, and once I did he immediately sponsored me.
He really believes in crowd funding projects and supporting them.
He really believes in crowd funding projects and supporting them.
I loved that episode, and all other episodes I've listened to. Thank you so much for curating such a wonderful collection of interesting stories!
Thanks for listening!
After I listen to a podcast host for quite some time, and then read a text message from them, my brain starts reading it in their voice. That definitively happened here. Thanks a lot for making this great show, listened to quite a few episodes by now and had a great time!
Thanks for listening!
Love CoRecursive. The latest episode with Douglas Crockford is also great
Had to double check, this isn't a new interview I think. Think it's from 2021.
Great interview. I think the most interesting part of this to me was how someone forked Zig and tried to sell it, that must have been stressful.
Interesting what he mentioned about IRC and the C channel on freenode being horrible. Never been there but in several others. I especially like to remember the #chicken scheme channel. Those was, maybe and hopefully still is, one of the friendliest, most helpful and nicest places in the world wide web.
Previous discussion:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28046256
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28046256
19:00-21:00 hits home hard for me
I used to have coworkers ask 'what programmers do you look up to?', and that question always felt icky to me because it kind of implied you can't make the same choices and become your own hero.
Over time, I found people whose life choices and personal advice I deeply appreciate. Andrew is definitely one; partly because of overlapping software goals, but mainly because of just how human & approachable he is. Genuinely just a great guy who wants others to succeed and share in his successes in life.
I used to have coworkers ask 'what programmers do you look up to?', and that question always felt icky to me because it kind of implied you can't make the same choices and become your own hero.
Over time, I found people whose life choices and personal advice I deeply appreciate. Andrew is definitely one; partly because of overlapping software goals, but mainly because of just how human & approachable he is. Genuinely just a great guy who wants others to succeed and share in his successes in life.
Unfortunately, I have the opposite experience with Andrew. But I'm glad you had a positive one.
Any details you’d be willing to share?
I dare not say much, but I will say that Andrew does not like to be told he is wrong.
He told me off when he claimed (on IRC) that you couldn't easily write good hash maps in C, but you could in Zig, and I sent him a link to hash maps I had written in C. Then he proceeded to tell me to stop bothering him.
When I started taking apart his claim that Zig does not have function colors, he got mad. Part of that was my fault; I didn't use the best language. But he still refused to acknowledge my arguments until I made a very long, mostly objective blog post about it that went viral. [1]
Then, and only then, did he somewhat acknowledge that I was right.
[1]: https://gavinhoward.com/2022/04/i-believe-zig-has-function-c...
He told me off when he claimed (on IRC) that you couldn't easily write good hash maps in C, but you could in Zig, and I sent him a link to hash maps I had written in C. Then he proceeded to tell me to stop bothering him.
When I started taking apart his claim that Zig does not have function colors, he got mad. Part of that was my fault; I didn't use the best language. But he still refused to acknowledge my arguments until I made a very long, mostly objective blog post about it that went viral. [1]
Then, and only then, did he somewhat acknowledge that I was right.
[1]: https://gavinhoward.com/2022/04/i-believe-zig-has-function-c...
Hi Gavin,
Do you think you could maybe stop saying nasty things about me in public? I don't appreciate it. I don't agree with your summary of our interactions either. It would be nice if you could just leave me alone.
Thanks, Andrew
Do you think you could maybe stop saying nasty things about me in public? I don't appreciate it. I don't agree with your summary of our interactions either. It would be nice if you could just leave me alone.
Thanks, Andrew
Hi Andrew,
You may not agree. That doesn't matter to me.
Is it materially untrue? Does it meet the standard of defamation or harassment? If so, then you have recourse, and I encourage you to take it.
If not, and it certainly does not, then I reserve my right to tell my side of every interaction we have. Including this one.
Also, labeling what I said as "nasty" is proving my point: you don't take criticism well.
I'm not sure what you mean by "leaving you alone." I haven't been harassing you. You are also a public figure now. There are some perks to being one, I'm sure, but there are also tradeoffs. One of those tradeoffs is that people can talk about you in public.
And I only gave details when asked. Otherwise, I would have only said that I did not have good experiences interacting with you.
So no, I will not stop.
Gavin Howard
Edit: Made a change to bad wording.
You may not agree. That doesn't matter to me.
Is it materially untrue? Does it meet the standard of defamation or harassment? If so, then you have recourse, and I encourage you to take it.
If not, and it certainly does not, then I reserve my right to tell my side of every interaction we have. Including this one.
Also, labeling what I said as "nasty" is proving my point: you don't take criticism well.
I'm not sure what you mean by "leaving you alone." I haven't been harassing you. You are also a public figure now. There are some perks to being one, I'm sure, but there are also tradeoffs. One of those tradeoffs is that people can talk about you in public.
And I only gave details when asked. Otherwise, I would have only said that I did not have good experiences interacting with you.
So no, I will not stop.
Gavin Howard
Edit: Made a change to bad wording.
> And I only talked about it when asked. Otherwise, I would have only said that I did not have good experiences interacting with you.
Reading this thread, someone commented about his experience (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35505169), and you offered your own, unsolicited (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35505919). Yes, they then asked for details, which you then provided. But you volunteered your experience. You (nor anyone else) was asked for their experience.
Reading this thread, someone commented about his experience (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35505169), and you offered your own, unsolicited (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35505919). Yes, they then asked for details, which you then provided. But you volunteered your experience. You (nor anyone else) was asked for their experience.
That is true.
Now let me ask this: what is wrong with providing what I did?
Now let me ask this: what is wrong with providing what I did?
I'm only pointing out the inconsistency in your description of the encounter. Your whole stance here seems to be "I'm just describing facts" when asked to stop, so I would think it's important to you to know when you're apparently not doing so.
And even if it is the facts or true, is it important to share your experience? Is it important to counter someone's good experience with your own bad experience?
FWIW, I know nothing of Zig or anyone in this thread: hiding behind "it's just the facts" to be unkind I find is unhelpful. ("But I'm not being unkind! We're just having a rational discussion!" I hear you say. I disagree. It's never just that.)
Edited to add: I'm leaving this here as-is, but I regret posting it. I should have recognized that this would be fruitless and adds nothing to the thread, and should have never engaged.
And even if it is the facts or true, is it important to share your experience? Is it important to counter someone's good experience with your own bad experience?
FWIW, I know nothing of Zig or anyone in this thread: hiding behind "it's just the facts" to be unkind I find is unhelpful. ("But I'm not being unkind! We're just having a rational discussion!" I hear you say. I disagree. It's never just that.)
Edited to add: I'm leaving this here as-is, but I regret posting it. I should have recognized that this would be fruitless and adds nothing to the thread, and should have never engaged.
I've edited my original reply to Andrew. Now it says "give details." Satisfied?
> And even if it is the facts or true, is it important to share your experience? Is it important to counter someone's good experience with your own bad experience?
Yes. Public figures should never be immune to criticism.
> hiding behind "it's just the facts" to be unkind I find is unhelpful.
Okay, let's say I'm being unkind. Then you are too because you're criticizing me. Which is fair; you're allowed to. But it's unkind by your own standard, especially if "it's never just that."
Just to clarify: I believe that criticizing public figures is not unkind in and of itself.
> And even if it is the facts or true, is it important to share your experience? Is it important to counter someone's good experience with your own bad experience?
Yes. Public figures should never be immune to criticism.
> hiding behind "it's just the facts" to be unkind I find is unhelpful.
Okay, let's say I'm being unkind. Then you are too because you're criticizing me. Which is fair; you're allowed to. But it's unkind by your own standard, especially if "it's never just that."
Just to clarify: I believe that criticizing public figures is not unkind in and of itself.
Loved hearing about the history SQLite! I do feel we should capture more of the tech story's, as its hard to learn from mistakes.. if you don't know the history.
[deleted]
[1]: https://corecursive.com/066-sqlite-with-richard-hipp/
[2]: https://jakstys.lt/2022/my-favorite-podcast/