Chevy Bolt EV and Bolt EUV production is ending this year(thedrive.com)
thedrive.com
Chevy Bolt EV and Bolt EUV production is ending this year
https://www.thedrive.com/news/chevy-bolt-ev-and-bolt-euv-production-is-ending-this-year
46 comments
But that's not at all the reason why. Even the article explains it. They sold well but Chevrolet's quality control is bad. They lost money because of recalls and lack of good control processes to make these cars. They ran a cost benefit analysis and said, "fuck it, we'll continue making shittier cars".
It also doesn't help that many U.S manufacturers opt into building Trucks and SUVs to avoid emission regulations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo
It also doesn't help that many U.S manufacturers opt into building Trucks and SUVs to avoid emission regulations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo
I own a Chevy Volt and frequent forums and a very popular FB group for volt owners.
The gen1 volt basically had zero common problems other than an axle nut, and CV axles that wear out fast (because the axle handles forward motion but also reverse stress during Regen braking).
The gen2 volt has an EGR valve/cooler problem, and a transmission shift linkage module that gives false readings. Both issues plague a high percentage of gen2 volts, and parts are nowhere to be found. Volts are sitting under warranty at dealerships for months sometimes waiting for parts.
It honestly sounds like GM has more supplier problems than they do engineering or fundamental cost problems.
If they quality controlled their suppliers better, and demanded reimbursememt for failed components from suppliers (basically a warranty from their supplier) they would be much better of.
Also, some of this is a programming fault. GM is often good at this. Don't make the failure mode of something result in the car bricking itself.
The shifter issue stems from the fact the gear position sensor fails and tells people to "shift to park" before you can start the car.
Was that REALLY required? Can I honestly not start my car if I'm in D? I'm already forced to press the brake pedal anyway. So Jesus let me start it in whatever gear you think I'm in. Maybe there's a governmemt rule I suppose. I just wish things defaulted to not bricking themselves over a technicality. Car technically functions, mechanical selector is moving correcrly. Safety switch fails.
It honestly sounds like GM has more supplier problems than they do engineering or fundamental cost problems.
If they quality controlled their suppliers better, and demanded reimbursememt for failed components from suppliers (basically a warranty from their supplier) they would be much better of.
Also, some of this is a programming fault. GM is often good at this. Don't make the failure mode of something result in the car bricking itself.
The shifter issue stems from the fact the gear position sensor fails and tells people to "shift to park" before you can start the car.
Was that REALLY required? Can I honestly not start my car if I'm in D? I'm already forced to press the brake pedal anyway. So Jesus let me start it in whatever gear you think I'm in. Maybe there's a governmemt rule I suppose. I just wish things defaulted to not bricking themselves over a technicality. Car technically functions, mechanical selector is moving correcrly. Safety switch fails.
> If they quality controlled their suppliers better, and demanded reimbursememt for failed components from suppliers (basically a warranty from their supplier) they would be much better of.
No, GM would be much better off if they made their own damn components and quit outsourcing everything in the universe.
The small companies have figured out that nobody can replace them because there is no competitor who can absorb their orders. Consequently, they can threaten to declare bankruptcy if they get hit with too high a penalty.
No, GM would be much better off if they made their own damn components and quit outsourcing everything in the universe.
The small companies have figured out that nobody can replace them because there is no competitor who can absorb their orders. Consequently, they can threaten to declare bankruptcy if they get hit with too high a penalty.
I don't know if any other company but Tesla is basically making everything. Very impressive. I watched a breakdown of their heat pump HVAC unit vs a competitor. Less than half the parts, less than 1/3 of the hoses and connections (aka failure points)
Yes it is very "impressive" when Tesla uses random wooden parts from Home Depot to cobble together their cars. Truly some outside the box engineering talent there.
https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-y-owners-have-found-home-de...
https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-y-owners-have-found-home-de...
God forbid, synthetic material from a synthetic and organic materials supply store. Would you feel better if they sourced some synthetic material from 'synthetic bulk shapes unlimited inc'?
But seriously, yes they probably went a bit "just get it done" to shim and strap down that component.
That does not take away from them also doing some crazy engineering on major components that will surely improve the lifetime ownership also.
But seriously, yes they probably went a bit "just get it done" to shim and strap down that component.
That does not take away from them also doing some crazy engineering on major components that will surely improve the lifetime ownership also.
Yes, Federal motor vehicle safety rules require the ignition system to be locked out when the transmission is in Drive.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2005/07/01/05-1306...
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2005/07/01/05-1306...
The solution would be to make a system that senses when it is in drive, and provides a do not start signal.
Thus if this sensor fails someday, it is a failure like any other than now technically breaks a law.. just like a failed windshield washer motor would no longer be compliant... But the vehicle can still technically start.
The owner can then decide if they want to fix the issue and have a fully federally compliant car, but it isn't bricked until they fix it.
How would you feel if your windshield wiper motor failed, no rain in sight, and you could no longer use your car?
That's how users feel who can't use their car because a park position sensor failed.
Thus if this sensor fails someday, it is a failure like any other than now technically breaks a law.. just like a failed windshield washer motor would no longer be compliant... But the vehicle can still technically start.
The owner can then decide if they want to fix the issue and have a fully federally compliant car, but it isn't bricked until they fix it.
How would you feel if your windshield wiper motor failed, no rain in sight, and you could no longer use your car?
That's how users feel who can't use their car because a park position sensor failed.
Sounds good. You should submit a petition for rulemaking to the NHTSA to update the FMVSS accordingly.
https://www.transportation.gov/regulations/petitions
https://www.transportation.gov/regulations/petitions
Can you describe the "bricking" a bit more closely? The only problem you've described is having to shift to park before you can start the car, with the brake engaged, which is fairly common, and hardly sounds like your car is bricked.
I'm hoping to pick up a Volt or other hybrid, because I don't have a garage I can charge an EV in, but not if they're prone to actual bricking.
I'm hoping to pick up a Volt or other hybrid, because I don't have a garage I can charge an EV in, but not if they're prone to actual bricking.
Youve described the working condition yes.
But when the sensor fails, an owner can not start their car even when it is in park because the sensor thinks it's not no matter what you do.
The wait for this part seems to be 2 weeks for the lucky ones, and 6 months for the ultra unlucky ones. Typical seems 2 months.
Similar for the EGR system parts which is even sadder because cleaning it doesnt take long and would get the people another year or two until more parts are available.
Don't forget BECM on Gen2
Ah yes, that too. I like the mpg on the gen2, but gen1 seems like a much less troubled car. Beyond that, the gen1 seems like a very solid well built car punching well above it's "economy car" persona.
Solid body structure, great suspension, and even at 170k miles the only rattle I have is from a plastic panel on the rear hatch which gets slammed down thousands of times in its life so I can give it some leeway.
>I don't think people are as committed to their social causes as they claim
I'd have to pay $10-15k more money to get a smaller car that wouldn't fit my young family loaded up for a 2 night trip at my sisters. We'd have to stop at the one charger available in a 2 hour radius off our route, and still would risk getting stranded due to range issues if driving during the winter. We make these trips monthly.
It's not elitism, it's that people have economic constraints, the electrics cars in the marketplace are at a cost differential that equates to a year of college, and have huge real world disadvantages compared to lower cost alternatives.
I'd have to pay $10-15k more money to get a smaller car that wouldn't fit my young family loaded up for a 2 night trip at my sisters. We'd have to stop at the one charger available in a 2 hour radius off our route, and still would risk getting stranded due to range issues if driving during the winter. We make these trips monthly.
It's not elitism, it's that people have economic constraints, the electrics cars in the marketplace are at a cost differential that equates to a year of college, and have huge real world disadvantages compared to lower cost alternatives.
I agree it's not elitism. Real world constraints are the main issue. But still, you are not the typical driver by making a 300+ mile round trip every month.
The real issue is charging infrastructure. I'm sure you wouldn't mind a 10 min break in an ioniq 5 or similar to go 20-80%, but these are few and far between right now.
The real issue is charging infrastructure. I'm sure you wouldn't mind a 10 min break in an ioniq 5 or similar to go 20-80%, but these are few and far between right now.
The GM Voltec drivetrain was technically excellent, but they put it in the wrong vehicle. Small sedans (or pseudo hatchbacks) like the Volt are a dying market niche. The interior was cramped, especially the back seat. If GM had put the same drivetrain into a compact crossover SUV with a little more interior comfort and cargo space then it would have been more successful. Look how popular the Toyota RAV4 Prime plug-in hybrid SUV is.
The thing is that buying a new car of any kind actively works against a future that solves the problem merely attenuated by buying an electric car. You can have the same impact by keeping your current car and simply driving less. People willing to spend $15k on this cause are probably willing to take the equally impactful and less compromising step of changing their transport and consumption habits, instead.
So you're probably right that what's left is mostly people participating in a cultural trend. You're just wrong that people are refusing to solve the problem through electric cars, since electric cars don't solve the problem. People are acting reasonably in response to that, there's no inconsistency or hypocrisy in it.
So you're probably right that what's left is mostly people participating in a cultural trend. You're just wrong that people are refusing to solve the problem through electric cars, since electric cars don't solve the problem. People are acting reasonably in response to that, there's no inconsistency or hypocrisy in it.
In many ways an EV is a superior to ICE:
- quieter - charge at home / no gas station - quicker and smoother acceleration and handling - less components (less breakdowns ... in theory) - cheaper maintenance - cheaper operation (electricity SHOULD be cheaper than gas) - one pedal driving - no air pollution - will be cheaper than ICE at initial cost very soon, and will eventually be much cheaper.
The downsides are long distance range + recharging times for those trips
The point is that EVs aren't primarily an environmental cause. For your typical american it will be a simple selfish rational choice. I would guess in about five years this will be the choice for the new car buyer:
- buy an electric car for $25000 - $30000 that will cost $2000 / yr between recharging and maintenance, and has resale value
- buy an ICE for $40000 that will cost $4000 / yr between gas and maintenance, but those two long trips you take a year will be a half hour faster. Oh, and its resale value is basically nothing since ICE is being phased out.
These are rational economic decisions, by the standards of what the "science" of Economics thinks is "rational" (generally speaking: think short term and only about yourself).
Now, the used EV market is a bit thin now, but that is changing rapidly. The only thing that changes the calculus is the battery replacement and the fact that used buyers aren't resale/tradein focused.
Consider how new cars are financed (and BOY are they financed these days, with 7-10 year loans!). And this goes to a lot of my thinking on how EVs and alt energy are going to inflict a shrinking economies of lessening scale on the oil and ICE industries: why would a bank finance an oil exploration/development project on the scale of 10-20 years right now?
Soon, why would a bank finance a 7-10 year loan on an ICE? A core part of that loan is the value of a car, but if the innovation rate and adoption rate of EVs is as rapid as it is (I think it will get faster once 5-10 big automakers really get cranking), the value of an ICE car bought new looks to depreciate EVEN FASTER than it normally does.
I would argue that the 7-year value of a newly purchased ICE today is half or less of what it conventionally is viewed as (and ICE cars are now much more reliable than even 10 years ago, which underpins a lot of the 7-10 year loans).
Have the banks caught on to this? probably not, they need to encounter some "rude awakenings".
Finally, consider how much industry focuses your choice. Do you think the car companies are going to EV strictly because it is "trendy" and that regulatory agencies are forcing it?
No. They are going because of economic realities.
Tesla is allegedly at 33% margin on its cars, and the cost projections for its most expensive components (the batteries) is down. Way down. Probably will drop by half in just a couple years with LFP / Sodium Ion advances, and whatever comes out of Solid State / Sulfur / whatever CATL is doing.
A car company today has a choice: keep making ICE cars that 5-10 years will cost $10000 MORE than an EV, or make the EV transition. (again, per above, an EV is a fundamentally superior vehicle for consumers in most ways).
The investors in auto companies know this. BMW, VW and other CEOs have been fired recently because they have squandered or failed to start the EV transition. The investors know that BEVs will cause apocalyptic disruption to automakers, and you are a dead man standing if you don't have a BEV engineering team spun up yesterday.
- quieter - charge at home / no gas station - quicker and smoother acceleration and handling - less components (less breakdowns ... in theory) - cheaper maintenance - cheaper operation (electricity SHOULD be cheaper than gas) - one pedal driving - no air pollution - will be cheaper than ICE at initial cost very soon, and will eventually be much cheaper.
The downsides are long distance range + recharging times for those trips
The point is that EVs aren't primarily an environmental cause. For your typical american it will be a simple selfish rational choice. I would guess in about five years this will be the choice for the new car buyer:
- buy an electric car for $25000 - $30000 that will cost $2000 / yr between recharging and maintenance, and has resale value
- buy an ICE for $40000 that will cost $4000 / yr between gas and maintenance, but those two long trips you take a year will be a half hour faster. Oh, and its resale value is basically nothing since ICE is being phased out.
These are rational economic decisions, by the standards of what the "science" of Economics thinks is "rational" (generally speaking: think short term and only about yourself).
Now, the used EV market is a bit thin now, but that is changing rapidly. The only thing that changes the calculus is the battery replacement and the fact that used buyers aren't resale/tradein focused.
Consider how new cars are financed (and BOY are they financed these days, with 7-10 year loans!). And this goes to a lot of my thinking on how EVs and alt energy are going to inflict a shrinking economies of lessening scale on the oil and ICE industries: why would a bank finance an oil exploration/development project on the scale of 10-20 years right now?
Soon, why would a bank finance a 7-10 year loan on an ICE? A core part of that loan is the value of a car, but if the innovation rate and adoption rate of EVs is as rapid as it is (I think it will get faster once 5-10 big automakers really get cranking), the value of an ICE car bought new looks to depreciate EVEN FASTER than it normally does.
I would argue that the 7-year value of a newly purchased ICE today is half or less of what it conventionally is viewed as (and ICE cars are now much more reliable than even 10 years ago, which underpins a lot of the 7-10 year loans).
Have the banks caught on to this? probably not, they need to encounter some "rude awakenings".
Finally, consider how much industry focuses your choice. Do you think the car companies are going to EV strictly because it is "trendy" and that regulatory agencies are forcing it?
No. They are going because of economic realities.
Tesla is allegedly at 33% margin on its cars, and the cost projections for its most expensive components (the batteries) is down. Way down. Probably will drop by half in just a couple years with LFP / Sodium Ion advances, and whatever comes out of Solid State / Sulfur / whatever CATL is doing.
A car company today has a choice: keep making ICE cars that 5-10 years will cost $10000 MORE than an EV, or make the EV transition. (again, per above, an EV is a fundamentally superior vehicle for consumers in most ways).
The investors in auto companies know this. BMW, VW and other CEOs have been fired recently because they have squandered or failed to start the EV transition. The investors know that BEVs will cause apocalyptic disruption to automakers, and you are a dead man standing if you don't have a BEV engineering team spun up yesterday.
Both were popular cars though. They had good reputations and were hard to find, so people were buying them as fast as they were making them.
The demographics who both buy new cars and buy EV in 2016-present wouldn't be caught dead buying something from GM. No wonder it went over about as well as the Subaru Baja.
Slap a Toyota or maybe Honda badge on the grill and the Bolt/Volt would have flown off the shelves.
Slap a Toyota or maybe Honda badge on the grill and the Bolt/Volt would have flown off the shelves.
Indeed but they were not committed to it like VW is with the ID.3 and ID.2.
The gig was up when they stopped selling the Sonic and said their future was just trucks and SUV's.
Yet another unpopular move from the automaker that brings you such great hits as "No more CarPlay or Android Auto" and "Mandatory 3 year OnStar subscriptions on select high end vehicles"...
Why the Equinix is priced relatively similar, and is a better car.
Why? The Equinox isn't even a car.
Awesome. We were just talking about maybe getting a Bolt EV to replace our aging Fit. We were also thinking about the Leaf but rumors are that it's on the chopping block as well. It's weird to me there isn't more demand for small hatchback EVs.
Hatchbacks FTW! I would totally buy an electric or even a hybrid Fit.
What's crazy is that they sell waaaay more configurations of the Fit for the Japanese market [1], even a "Crosstar" trim level with 4wd + hybrid! [2].
A real shame they discontinued the Fit in the North American market, I would have easily bought one but ended up with an HR-V because it's basically a Fit on steroids (same chassis, still has magic seats until 2022), but it's a big percent price jump: $17k (2020 fit) -> $21k (2020 hrv).
[1] https://www.honda.co.jp/Fit/webcatalog/type/list/
[2] https://www.honda.co.jp/Fit/webcatalog/type/crosstar/?from=c...
A real shame they discontinued the Fit in the North American market, I would have easily bought one but ended up with an HR-V because it's basically a Fit on steroids (same chassis, still has magic seats until 2022), but it's a big percent price jump: $17k (2020 fit) -> $21k (2020 hrv).
[1] https://www.honda.co.jp/Fit/webcatalog/type/list/
[2] https://www.honda.co.jp/Fit/webcatalog/type/crosstar/?from=c...
I’ve been pretty happy with my Fit. Nearly 200k of fault free miles. That said, sign me up hybrid, 4wd every time.
VW sees the GTI as the benchmark within the small hatch segment, so I’m hopeful about (eventual) EV GTI.
There’s demand and there’s profitability, one of these is much more important to a manufacturer.
Given the current supply constraints, high volume low margin models don’t make a ton of business sense, unfortunately.
Given the current supply constraints, high volume low margin models don’t make a ton of business sense, unfortunately.
So a buyer will soon see 3 options for buying a new "American" electric car:
Model 3 around $37,000
Model S around $90,000
Lucid Air around $90,000
Everything else American to be made CUV size or bigger!
Model 3 around $37,000
Model S around $90,000
Lucid Air around $90,000
Everything else American to be made CUV size or bigger!
ID4 is also made in america
The article says Chevy is launching the Equinox EV for $30k in Fall 2023.
Equinox is an SUV, as stated by Chevy. GP was talking about American made sedans or 'small' EVs. Bolt is/was MUCH smaller than the Equinox.
If you look up the dimensions of the Model S, Equinox EV, Mustang EV, and Lucid Air, you will find the Model S is actually the longest and the widest of the bunch. So it’s weird to exclude the Equinox and Mustang from this price comparison.
The Mustang is 1 inch longer and wider than the Model 3.
Nobody wants to sell small EVs in America, apparently.
The Mustang is 1 inch longer and wider than the Model 3.
Nobody wants to sell small EVs in America, apparently.
Equinox is a CUV. Mustang is a CUV, and bigger than the Model 3:
https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/ford-mustang-mach-e...
https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/ford-mustang-mach-e...
CUV is a marketing designation.
It’s obvious why a person might want a shorter or narrower car - so the car can be driven comfortably on smaller roads, fit in smaller parking spaces or garages. I can’t really imagine why a person would choose to buy a car because it’s 56 rather than 63 inches tall. That’s still well shorter than the shortest garage door opening I’ve ever heard of. Btw, the Bolt is also 63 inches tall (same as the Mustang).
It’s obvious why a person might want a shorter or narrower car - so the car can be driven comfortably on smaller roads, fit in smaller parking spaces or garages. I can’t really imagine why a person would choose to buy a car because it’s 56 rather than 63 inches tall. That’s still well shorter than the shortest garage door opening I’ve ever heard of. Btw, the Bolt is also 63 inches tall (same as the Mustang).
CUV is a term for driver's sit height. Sitting around the same height of an SUV but getting the ride feel and suspension of a car.
The Chevy Equinox and the Ford Mustang EV are both made in Mexico.
I am getting more and more annoyed over time with how almost every new EV is an SUV, crossover, or truck. I'm not hating on those who want or need larger vehicles but why can't there be smaller coupes for those who want something not gigantic?
Not surprised - they stop caring making compact or subcompact cars a while back when they sold Opel to Peugeot PSA.
They seem to forget that a kid buying a Civic today will one day have a family and drive a Honda SUV in a few years time.
VW/Nissan/Toyota will no doubt be glad.
They seem to forget that a kid buying a Civic today will one day have a family and drive a Honda SUV in a few years time.
VW/Nissan/Toyota will no doubt be glad.
Japanese car dealers play the same games nowadays that American car dealers always did.
The biggest threat to their bottom line is economy cars. If somebody buys an economy car who could possibly spend another $20,000 that is a lost opportunity that won’t come back for 5 of 10 years in many cases.
Last time i bought a Fit I wanted a new one but had to get a used because they had no Fits because the ‘factory washed out in a flood' but they had 50 HR-Vs lined up that nobody had bought yet that came from the same factory.
The automotive press repeats that line that Americans only want to buy huge cars like the people in The Manchurian Candidate but the fact is everyday somebody goes into a car dealership and gets pressured to buy something bigger than they wanted initially.
The biggest threat to their bottom line is economy cars. If somebody buys an economy car who could possibly spend another $20,000 that is a lost opportunity that won’t come back for 5 of 10 years in many cases.
Last time i bought a Fit I wanted a new one but had to get a used because they had no Fits because the ‘factory washed out in a flood' but they had 50 HR-Vs lined up that nobody had bought yet that came from the same factory.
The automotive press repeats that line that Americans only want to buy huge cars like the people in The Manchurian Candidate but the fact is everyday somebody goes into a car dealership and gets pressured to buy something bigger than they wanted initially.
Cause car financing is more profitable than selling the cars.
Often car manufacturers offer subsidized rates to most buyers buying new cars. Sure Audi and Porsche are standing firm at 2.9% for 60 months pre2022, but GM Dodge Ford had no shortage of 0% for 60 months.
Is that really profitable? Or are they making it all on lower tier buyers at 6.9%? I worked in the car business for years and most manufacturers don't touch actual bad credit people, so all that 10%+ loans you hear about are at other banks dealerships go through.
Is that really profitable? Or are they making it all on lower tier buyers at 6.9%? I worked in the car business for years and most manufacturers don't touch actual bad credit people, so all that 10%+ loans you hear about are at other banks dealerships go through.
This. Even if dealers don't "go away" as many want the shift to a "put in your order" model over 2020-2022 definitely gave OEMs a lot more visibility into what people want vs what dealers want to stock their lots with. See for example the success of the Maverick and the jump in manual transmission take rate.
The Chevy Bolt and Chevy Volt were both superb cars, however, they sorta got eschewed for not being en vogue. The Volt in particular was very well engineered with a unique powertrain that offered multiple advantages over battery electric and hybrids, while not being astronomically priced.
What we're seeing is elitism, not environmentalism.