Ask HN: I've run Linux for 13 years. Is it time to switch to a Mac?
41 comments
I've used everything. Windows for gaming/work, linux for prod/home and now Mac for work/play. I use docker every day and it's performance on Intel Mac used to be pretty terrible.
Until the M1 came out. It hands down beats every machine I have ever owned. I have an M1 Air, no fan, 10hr battery life, tiny package. It is amazing hardware. Docker is fast on it. Not linux fast but fast enough to always be running a dozen containers.
I find the recommendations saying that 'the software on mac is terrible' to not be the case for me. Sure, I am not running a fancy Wayland/sway tiled setup but the MacOS desktop is not THAT bad; at least it is not Windows.
I mostly use open source software every day. Alacritty (terminal), neovim (IDE), zsh (shell), firefox (browser), obsidian (docs). Spotify, slack and zoom are pretty much the only applications that are not open source.
I use dotfiles and use brew/brewfile to install packages. Brew has problems but apt/yum/etc have problems too. If you really want to keep things clean then you can use Nix on Mac if you wish.
And the Apple ecosystem? It just works and that is all I really care about. I put in my airpods and they can connect to all my devices. If I need to share files I can just air drop them to whatever device I want or just let them sync with iCloud.
I don't have time to fight with technology as I want to spend that time building things or hanging out with the family.
I think Asahi linux on M1/M2 laptops will be pretty amazing in the next year and you can have the best of both worlds.
Until the M1 came out. It hands down beats every machine I have ever owned. I have an M1 Air, no fan, 10hr battery life, tiny package. It is amazing hardware. Docker is fast on it. Not linux fast but fast enough to always be running a dozen containers.
I find the recommendations saying that 'the software on mac is terrible' to not be the case for me. Sure, I am not running a fancy Wayland/sway tiled setup but the MacOS desktop is not THAT bad; at least it is not Windows.
I mostly use open source software every day. Alacritty (terminal), neovim (IDE), zsh (shell), firefox (browser), obsidian (docs). Spotify, slack and zoom are pretty much the only applications that are not open source.
I use dotfiles and use brew/brewfile to install packages. Brew has problems but apt/yum/etc have problems too. If you really want to keep things clean then you can use Nix on Mac if you wish.
And the Apple ecosystem? It just works and that is all I really care about. I put in my airpods and they can connect to all my devices. If I need to share files I can just air drop them to whatever device I want or just let them sync with iCloud.
I don't have time to fight with technology as I want to spend that time building things or hanging out with the family.
I think Asahi linux on M1/M2 laptops will be pretty amazing in the next year and you can have the best of both worlds.
Just for the record: obsidian is not open source in the same way as Firefox or linux is. The source be viewed, but is subject to restrictive licenses. I use it, really like it, but it isn’t free and open.
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Apple M1 all day baby. Right now it's the best laptop hardware on the planet. Ride the wave. No fan noise and efficient use of battery. You carry around "desktop" power in a little efficient laptop package.
Software? I use tmux, emacs, firefox. My experience is very similar on GNU/linux, windows, or mac.
Mac window managment is a little wonky. So I installed the "rectagle" app for for simple window snaps and got on with stuff.
https://rectangleapp.com/
Software? I use tmux, emacs, firefox. My experience is very similar on GNU/linux, windows, or mac.
Mac window managment is a little wonky. So I installed the "rectagle" app for for simple window snaps and got on with stuff.
https://rectangleapp.com/
One caveat of M1 is when you run into tools/apps that aren't built for Apple Silicon yet and end up in a rabbit hole of dealing with Rosetta. But otherwise the battery life and how quiet they are is incredible.
For window management, check out Yabai[0] - it's an actual tiling window manager that can be customized in conjunction with skhd[1] for hotkeys.
[0] https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai
[1] https://github.com/koekeishiya/skhd
For window management, check out Yabai[0] - it's an actual tiling window manager that can be customized in conjunction with skhd[1] for hotkeys.
[0] https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai
[1] https://github.com/koekeishiya/skhd
Personally I think macOS sucks as a dev environment. If you switch to mac you should immediately use brew to install coreutils that don't suck. The bash they ship was built in 2007 (run `bash --version` and see; though they use zsh by default now), and their coreutils don't support any of the useful gnu extensions (try `grep -E` for example). Personally, I never saw why so many of my peers thought macOS was all that great, it seems like Apple doesn't really give a shit about developers who use their machines.
Plus, as other users have said, docker sucks on mac. Even windows is better (WSL can use memory ballooning so you don't have to dedicate a chunk of RAM to docker, the vm takes care of it)
Also I hear good things about ARM from a performance and battery/heat standpoint, but so much software out there is still designed around x86 arch that I don't want to switch.
(disclaimer: I use Windows, not Linux)
---
Coreutils:
brew install bash
brew install coreutils
Plus, as other users have said, docker sucks on mac. Even windows is better (WSL can use memory ballooning so you don't have to dedicate a chunk of RAM to docker, the vm takes care of it)
Also I hear good things about ARM from a performance and battery/heat standpoint, but so much software out there is still designed around x86 arch that I don't want to switch.
(disclaimer: I use Windows, not Linux)
---
Coreutils:
brew install bash
brew install coreutils
Thanks! Yeah, one of the things that I'd be most worried about would be switching to a new toolchain for stuff.
Every system will frustrate you. Nothing ever works 100% all the time, well except OpenBSD. But that’s because it’s such a tiny system.
Mac is way less frustrating than Windows, but not all Linux apps are available on Mac. If you use gpg on mac, be prepared for a lot of annoyances. On Linux it was more stable. Another thing that is missing is the i3 window manager. Virtualization limits you to modern systems, as there is the M1 chip.
Use whatever saves you the most time, we only have one lifetime
Mac is way less frustrating than Windows, but not all Linux apps are available on Mac. If you use gpg on mac, be prepared for a lot of annoyances. On Linux it was more stable. Another thing that is missing is the i3 window manager. Virtualization limits you to modern systems, as there is the M1 chip.
Use whatever saves you the most time, we only have one lifetime
> I've always used Linux because I want to keep my computer as similar to prod as possible.
Join the dark side. It's not that bad here.
My pitch to you is that if you want an environment similar to production you should be using a bastion server. iTerm2 is a nice piece of software and quite ergonomic.
As a selfish admin (never for corp), being on Linux potentially means you are a non typical environment which requires higher levels of support or unique support, supporting multiple environments is like supporting more edgecases. There are economies of scale for everyone when you use the environment that everyone else is using.
If you're working for a company and development on a MacBook is slow, that's the companies problem, if you're working for a company and your development environment is linux, while everyone else is on a MacBook, that's your problem (or at the very least, you can expect lower prioritization).
Also, you might think of a device as the operating system it is running, but I would encourage you to instead, think about it in terms of how you use it.
The mac keyboard and track-pad set the industry standard multiple times now (with some notable catastrophes) and is very satisfying to use in ways that other laptops aren't. So if you use your laptop as a laptop, the keyboard itself deserves some consideration greater than the operating system, IMHO.
I am on the last generation of mac that ran intel, and don't have problems running other environments, but I use servers in the cloud when I want proper linux.
Join the dark side. It's not that bad here.
My pitch to you is that if you want an environment similar to production you should be using a bastion server. iTerm2 is a nice piece of software and quite ergonomic.
As a selfish admin (never for corp), being on Linux potentially means you are a non typical environment which requires higher levels of support or unique support, supporting multiple environments is like supporting more edgecases. There are economies of scale for everyone when you use the environment that everyone else is using.
If you're working for a company and development on a MacBook is slow, that's the companies problem, if you're working for a company and your development environment is linux, while everyone else is on a MacBook, that's your problem (or at the very least, you can expect lower prioritization).
Also, you might think of a device as the operating system it is running, but I would encourage you to instead, think about it in terms of how you use it.
The mac keyboard and track-pad set the industry standard multiple times now (with some notable catastrophes) and is very satisfying to use in ways that other laptops aren't. So if you use your laptop as a laptop, the keyboard itself deserves some consideration greater than the operating system, IMHO.
I am on the last generation of mac that ran intel, and don't have problems running other environments, but I use servers in the cloud when I want proper linux.
How come nobody has mentioned the endless hazzle in Linux to make multiple displays work as expected?
On most setups, I find myself lucky if _something_ doesn't go wrong when connecting my displays with a mix of USB-C and HDMI. And of course I cannot place my second screen to the right, it has to go to the left (in XFCE).
In Windows this just works, and I believe Mac is better as well.
On most setups, I find myself lucky if _something_ doesn't go wrong when connecting my displays with a mix of USB-C and HDMI. And of course I cannot place my second screen to the right, it has to go to the left (in XFCE).
In Windows this just works, and I believe Mac is better as well.
Linux is for and by developers and enthusiasts. The others so require brew or WSL to be added.
My brother is the least tech user you can imagine and got tired of windows updates breaking his drivers every time they ran. So, he ended up with a Dell Linux desktop (Ubuntu) and has had no problems, meaning bluetooth, wireless, etc. I don't know about Nvidia support.
My disclaimer is that I have been using mac stuff forever, along with Linux because in earlier times, very little of the open source good stuff was compiled for mac. That said, most of my computer time these days is browsing, and processing photos, and I use open source apps on the mac to do that. The imac of over 10 years just lost its backlight, and I really miss the brightness and sharpness.
Don't forget that Apple and Microsoft exist to make boatloads of money, and will do what it takes to expand their business models. (selling content, devices, A.R., pushing A.I. into stuff, SAAS, and lately, banking) Linux is great because of what it's NOT doing, IMO. Getting things done is about focus on the task.
My brother is the least tech user you can imagine and got tired of windows updates breaking his drivers every time they ran. So, he ended up with a Dell Linux desktop (Ubuntu) and has had no problems, meaning bluetooth, wireless, etc. I don't know about Nvidia support.
My disclaimer is that I have been using mac stuff forever, along with Linux because in earlier times, very little of the open source good stuff was compiled for mac. That said, most of my computer time these days is browsing, and processing photos, and I use open source apps on the mac to do that. The imac of over 10 years just lost its backlight, and I really miss the brightness and sharpness.
Don't forget that Apple and Microsoft exist to make boatloads of money, and will do what it takes to expand their business models. (selling content, devices, A.R., pushing A.I. into stuff, SAAS, and lately, banking) Linux is great because of what it's NOT doing, IMO. Getting things done is about focus on the task.
Don't switch if you're not actually interested in proactively learning the many nuances of the Mac GUI/Application paradigm, and will instead just complain bitterly that things aren't structured identically to Windows or your previous Linux DE of choice.
Same goes for switching in the other directions.
Same goes for switching in the other directions.
Is it time to switch to a Mac?
I've run Linux for 22 years and UNIX for 10 years before that. I had a brief flirtation with MacOS in 2006 - that lasted a mere 3 or 4 months. After Linux's freedom to do whatever I wanted, Apple's 'walled garden' was just too constrictive for me to bear.
The last Thinkpad I used didn't have working wifi drivers
There used to be an old saying back in the 80s or thereabouts: "Decide your OS depending on the Apps you want to run on it. Decide your hardware depending on the OS you have decided to run on it."
Did you buy a ThinkPad out of a store and then decided to work out what you wanted to run on it? Or did you do what I usually do, and that's to decide on a Thinkpad and then customise its hardware to suit my Linux on the Lenovo website.
Hint: Intel hardware generally is a better match with Linux.
I've run Linux for 22 years and UNIX for 10 years before that. I had a brief flirtation with MacOS in 2006 - that lasted a mere 3 or 4 months. After Linux's freedom to do whatever I wanted, Apple's 'walled garden' was just too constrictive for me to bear.
The last Thinkpad I used didn't have working wifi drivers
There used to be an old saying back in the 80s or thereabouts: "Decide your OS depending on the Apps you want to run on it. Decide your hardware depending on the OS you have decided to run on it."
Did you buy a ThinkPad out of a store and then decided to work out what you wanted to run on it? Or did you do what I usually do, and that's to decide on a Thinkpad and then customise its hardware to suit my Linux on the Lenovo website.
Hint: Intel hardware generally is a better match with Linux.
> Apple's 'walled garden' was just too constrictive for me to bear.
What walled garden is there with macOS? You've always been free to run whatever you want. iOS is where the walls are.
16 years might warrant another attempt. ;)
What walled garden is there with macOS? You've always been free to run whatever you want. iOS is where the walls are.
16 years might warrant another attempt. ;)
Apple deliberately obfuscates files - their names, where they are stored, how they can be accessed. You have to jump through hoops to access your own data.
Now compare that to the ease of free access to any file of yours (and others when permitted as well) in the filesystems of other operating systems (even Windows).
Even getting your photos off your iPhone can be a pain in the neck. And that's just one example.
Now compare that to the ease of free access to any file of yours (and others when permitted as well) in the filesystems of other operating systems (even Windows).
Even getting your photos off your iPhone can be a pain in the neck. And that's just one example.
Lots of linux development has moved to WSL2 on win11. Cuda and docker with instructions for WSL2 deployment only.
WSL2 with wslg is pretty nice thou. Windows terminal and multiple distros in wsl2 is pretty nice. Even have arch running in a wsl vm.
WSL2 with wslg is pretty nice thou. Windows terminal and multiple distros in wsl2 is pretty nice. Even have arch running in a wsl vm.
Ooh, you're right! I hadn't been thinking of windows and WSL2.
Would have the added benefit of compatibility with all the hardware tools that are windows only...
Would have the added benefit of compatibility with all the hardware tools that are windows only...
We have a media Mac and my kids have (need) iPhones, because of Apple's iMessage discrimination. It drives me crazy dealing with iCloud and Apple's 2FA and on and on, and package management is still as best I can tell a mess. As much as the hw is beautiful and performant I cannot stand the thought of having to live under Apple's software regime.
With Linux, if you are having wifi issues, you are almost certainly running the wrong distro.
I have run Fedora on dozens of Thinkpad models over the last 15 years. All the hw things work OOB now. Several Thinkpad models ship with Fedora as well too. It really all just works at this point.
With Linux, if you are having wifi issues, you are almost certainly running the wrong distro.
I have run Fedora on dozens of Thinkpad models over the last 15 years. All the hw things work OOB now. Several Thinkpad models ship with Fedora as well too. It really all just works at this point.
Nice! I've been running Ubuntu my entire Linux career, but maybe that's a change that's worth making instead.
I recommend to stick with Linux if you want to stay a learner. Linux forces you to keep up and adapt. If you choose the confort of an obscure black box that do all for you, then you'll loose this. Is it bad to let go this habit to always learn ? I think so.
I'm sure people would say this cognitive burden is not useful and freeing your mind from it will let you get more valuable knowledge. But tinkering with your computer is an underestimate skill.
I'm sure people would say this cognitive burden is not useful and freeing your mind from it will let you get more valuable knowledge. But tinkering with your computer is an underestimate skill.
I used many linux distributions since 2002 until I finally landed at arch linux in 2010 and use it as my home distro since then. I think to be linux user is more state of the mind, when something does not work you enjoy the process of making it work... I'm still in that camp. Anyways I would refuse to use mac or windows after experiences I had with both. I hate to work on closed systems that do things I have no idea about..
Buy a better supported laptop and stick with Linux.
Last time I ran Docker on a Mac it was sooo slow. Not sure if they've improved that but something to be aware of... https://nodewood.com/blog/how-to-speed-up-docker-on-macos/
Last time I ran Docker on a Mac it was sooo slow. Not sure if they've improved that but something to be aware of... https://nodewood.com/blog/how-to-speed-up-docker-on-macos/
Hey, author of that article. It has improved immensely since I wrote that article, and I'm actually planning on updating it.
The short of it is, that you can enable VirtIO file sharing and Rosetta compilation of Docker images in Docker Desktop on Mac now to get massive, massive speed boosts, and it's just clicking some settings in the app. I have compared with some folks at work who have a top-of-the-line Linux laptop, and our speeds inside Docker containers are roughly equivalent with these features enabled.
Also, I'm planning on trying out https://orbstack.dev/ soon, which is basically an alternative to Docker Desktop with all these optimizations enabled by default and a smaller footprint, so theoretically a lot simpler, still, and plenty fast.
The short of it is, that you can enable VirtIO file sharing and Rosetta compilation of Docker images in Docker Desktop on Mac now to get massive, massive speed boosts, and it's just clicking some settings in the app. I have compared with some folks at work who have a top-of-the-line Linux laptop, and our speeds inside Docker containers are roughly equivalent with these features enabled.
Also, I'm planning on trying out https://orbstack.dev/ soon, which is basically an alternative to Docker Desktop with all these optimizations enabled by default and a smaller footprint, so theoretically a lot simpler, still, and plenty fast.
Any favorites with an Nvidia gpu?
I'd suggest buying a laptop that has hardware with known support. System76 makes great laptops, Dell has Linux-compatible laptops, etc. or switch to a distro that will handle that configuration for you - Pop OS is a really reliable, easy-to-install distro that gets out of your way.
I was in same boat, switched years ago. One thing to be aware of is that on newer M series chips (M1, M2) these are ARM, so if you really really need prod to match then that might be an issue.
On the other hand, we are generally deploying to AWS Graviton anyway which is ARM as well, so perhaps it will be more similar!
On the other hand, we are generally deploying to AWS Graviton anyway which is ARM as well, so perhaps it will be more similar!
A Mac plus docker would have been fine a few years ago, but now with Mac arm64, things are getting complicated again. Stick with a decent Intel laptop + linux for now, unless you really just mostly use "user-side" stuff (i.e. not containers, linux, etc.)
Buy from a specialist Linux seller to pro-market having the guaranteed expectation (or your money back) that you receive your device with all drivers working. You may have to pay a higher mark-up price like the cost of a Mac.
I assume you mean System76 or FrameWork?
Yes.
13 years is enough time to try something new that just works.
To save yourself 13 more years of frustration over basic things like Linux wifi drivers and Nvidia drivers breaking down in 2023, just use a Mac.
It just works and gets out of the way.
13 years is enough time to try something new that just works.
To save yourself 13 more years of frustration over basic things like Linux wifi drivers and Nvidia drivers breaking down in 2023, just use a Mac.
It just works and gets out of the way.
Go with Mac if you like the apps available and the desktop environment.
If you want to be as similar to prod as possible, then Linux is much closer. Containers are much more convenient to run on Linux.
If you want to be as similar to prod as possible, then Linux is much closer. Containers are much more convenient to run on Linux.
> The last Thinkpad I used didn't have working wifi drivers out of the box!
Given its a one time setup and you use the laptop for 1-2 years at a minimum, I find it a weird hill to die on.
Given its a one time setup and you use the laptop for 1-2 years at a minimum, I find it a weird hill to die on.
I have a m1 mac mini and I feel the same frustrations of software not being supported. If you're considering ditching linux, I would recommend a win11 machine and WSL
And if the answer is to stick with Linux, would love your laptop recommendations for something with an Nvidia gpu where Ubuntu "just works" out of the box :)
Dell sell some machines with both Ubuntu and nVidia graphics. I have no idea how good they are but they do exist. I don’t know how well they upgrade to newer LTS versions.
Mac has the best hardware, but worst UX and software quality you could ever imagine.
if you use docker a lot, macos is annoyingly slow.
perhaps try a simpler linux setup and change it less frequently. on arch or alpine edge.
perhaps try a simpler linux setup and change it less frequently. on arch or alpine edge.
I find it hard to make an abstract recommendation, because unless you have a strict reason you need one or the other, it really is a matter of personal taste and priorities.
if you have to ask, then it's time for you to switch.
Yeah get a Mac and run Docker.
At the same time, I've become more and more frustrated with Linux support on laptops. The last Thinkpad I used didn't have working wifi drivers out of the box! Getting Nvidia drivers to work well on a laptop is also a big pain.
So HN, what do you recommend?