Microsoft enables booting PCs directly into cloud PCs(theregister.com)
theregister.com
Microsoft enables booting PCs directly into cloud PCs
https://www.theregister.com/2023/05/24/windows_365_boot_preview/
49 comments
The way things have been going lately it wouldn't surprise me if the true goal is to turn operating systems into an online only subscription.
Something about windows copilot screems either subscription or ads
It's a bit scary to be honest. Linux is fairly easy to use because it piggy backs on the popularity and relative standardization of PCs thanks to Windows. If Windows were to go fully cloud-based and computers would become simple terminals, the availability of cheap Linux machines could suffer. Not a likely scenario, probably more a microsoft wet dream.
As long as the speed of light in fiberglass is what it is, Gamers will be enough of a Market to prevent that.
On the other hand, cloud gaming has been more of a market than cloud PCs for consumers.
Because you need a basic PC to connect to it which is enough for most usecases anyway. But not for gaming so there it makes more sense.
Because you need a basic PC to connect to it which is enough for most usecases anyway. But not for gaming so there it makes more sense.
Cloud gaming will always be hampered by the simple reality of really of poor internet connections being very common.
20m people use Xbox cloud gaming. NVIDIA GeForce Now has 25m users.
I'd say those are some stats worthy of appreciation.
I'd say those are some stats worthy of appreciation.
Worthy of appreciation maybe but no one is gonna reasonably play things like CSGO on a cloud server. The difference due to latency is instantly noticeable and very obvious.
I addressed this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36057449
It's also bold to assume that everybody plays twitchy FPS. CSGO runs on Linux, the Steam Deck uses Linux in the OOBE, I'm sure that if push comes to shove and MS stops offering native Windows, people who want to play CSGO will just use Linux in the same way that people use emulators and FPGAs and CRT PVMs (hello) to play what they want and have the best experience.
However, what's probably more likely is that latency-dependent games becomes less and less popular if cloud gaming takes over, because more people are probably going to be playing a game that's included in their cheap monthly subscription rather than spending $XY. Making a twitchy niche latency-dependent game makes less sense than reaching as many people as possible where they're playing.
I can't imagine a world where Microsoft kills native Windows though, it just doesn't make sense. How environmentally friendly it is or is not is also a consideration with streaming a desktop.
It's also bold to assume that everybody plays twitchy FPS. CSGO runs on Linux, the Steam Deck uses Linux in the OOBE, I'm sure that if push comes to shove and MS stops offering native Windows, people who want to play CSGO will just use Linux in the same way that people use emulators and FPGAs and CRT PVMs (hello) to play what they want and have the best experience.
However, what's probably more likely is that latency-dependent games becomes less and less popular if cloud gaming takes over, because more people are probably going to be playing a game that's included in their cheap monthly subscription rather than spending $XY. Making a twitchy niche latency-dependent game makes less sense than reaching as many people as possible where they're playing.
I can't imagine a world where Microsoft kills native Windows though, it just doesn't make sense. How environmentally friendly it is or is not is also a consideration with streaming a desktop.
> It's also bold to assume that everybody plays twitchy FPS.
Never said "everybody" but enough do. https://steamcharts.com/app/730 Current active players 1,458,036 for CSGO alone
Never said "everybody" but enough do. https://steamcharts.com/app/730 Current active players 1,458,036 for CSGO alone
But this doesn't negate the fact that cloud gaming works for a lot of genres and a lot of people. That market will likely only grow, and in that scenario, will likely become what most publishers try to cater for as that's where the worthwhile money is.
Look at how many competitive FPS have tried to take on CSGO and have failed since its launch. CSGO is very much the gold-standard of its genre.
Despite modern PC gaming largely being a better experience (minus bad ports, buggy launches), consoles still sell in huge numbers. If cloud gaming grows, I expect it to replace consoles for a lot of people.
Even now, rather than download a game to my living room Xbox, I'll just stream the game via the cloud to it. However, if I'm sat up close with a game at my desk, of course I'll install it on my PC. But at x feet away from my TV in the living room, whatever is lacking visually or in terms of latency, I'm not gonna care about when my input device isn't exactly all that performant. I dare say that about sums it up for a lot of people using the cloud to game.
This is without even bringing up the number of Nintendo Switch games that are streaming-only as the console can't handle it natively. Doesn't seem to bother Switch owners much.
Look at how many competitive FPS have tried to take on CSGO and have failed since its launch. CSGO is very much the gold-standard of its genre.
Despite modern PC gaming largely being a better experience (minus bad ports, buggy launches), consoles still sell in huge numbers. If cloud gaming grows, I expect it to replace consoles for a lot of people.
Even now, rather than download a game to my living room Xbox, I'll just stream the game via the cloud to it. However, if I'm sat up close with a game at my desk, of course I'll install it on my PC. But at x feet away from my TV in the living room, whatever is lacking visually or in terms of latency, I'm not gonna care about when my input device isn't exactly all that performant. I dare say that about sums it up for a lot of people using the cloud to game.
This is without even bringing up the number of Nintendo Switch games that are streaming-only as the console can't handle it natively. Doesn't seem to bother Switch owners much.
Wall of text, short answer: Both will continue to exist and as long as enough people want to play games like CSGO we will have local pc gaming and thus linux desktop systems
Linux is part of the problem. Linux never has been an OS for personal computer and it's security model is backward and even nefarious for this purpose. Linux, like all Unix and Unix-like is an OS for a big central computer connected to many dumb terminals. What happens here is Windows taking lessons from Linux and Unix. If you want to save the idea of a personal computer you want an OS that empowers users instead of protecting the computer from them.
That is exactly the reason for moving everything to cloud and SaaS: software that is being bought is paid once (when not free), while the one hosted remotely is paid for use, many times, even if it's free (hosting costs). Doing the same thing with operating systems is just the next iteration. We're slowly going back to the mainframes era: a central server that holds everything surrounded by dumb terminals that can't work without connection to the above server. To me this equals to throwing down the toilet 50 years of IT advancement and open networks culture in the name of profit.
Is there an actual technical reason for doing this besides the subscription model success? Better analytics?
In _theory_ using a thin-client and booting into a cloud machine means you can "upgrade" your machine in a couple years w/o having to replace the thin-client.
Could be easier for grandma, could reduce e-waste, will definitely be used to pigeon-hole us into an endless hell of subscription software.
Could be easier for grandma, could reduce e-waste, will definitely be used to pigeon-hole us into an endless hell of subscription software.
In practice it means your compute time is being micro-time sliced to the maximum so it will probably perform incredibly bad.
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It won't happen for a lot of industries. I get a rock solid 0.7ms roundtrip latency using an RME RayDat. I can't play guitar decently with anything more than 4ms of latency.
Hybrid? Maybe. But even so, I think it'll still make more sense to just own the hardware and not rely on WANs with variable latency.
For the average schmoe or office worker? Probably makes sense to have it on the cloud, especially as how well Xbox cloud gaming works for most people.
Hybrid? Maybe. But even so, I think it'll still make more sense to just own the hardware and not rely on WANs with variable latency.
For the average schmoe or office worker? Probably makes sense to have it on the cloud, especially as how well Xbox cloud gaming works for most people.
Back to mainframes and terminals.
"Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again"
"Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again"
The loading cursor turns.
Awesome quote
i had the pleasure to see a corporate windows laptop in action recently.
the amount of official spyware on it that enables oversight is astonishing, and it doesn't really function offline (at least during boot it definitely wants to fetch some stuff off the mothership).
it also works just as well as you could imagine -- once somehow the 'delete' key got logically stuck, perhaps through a remote access facility, and the user sat there in shock as outlook kept deleting the mail. also, the constant prompts to 'urgently' close the business software for an update...
so a return to thin clients seems to be a healthy direction to me.
(i'll just keep using my linux laptop).
the amount of official spyware on it that enables oversight is astonishing, and it doesn't really function offline (at least during boot it definitely wants to fetch some stuff off the mothership).
it also works just as well as you could imagine -- once somehow the 'delete' key got logically stuck, perhaps through a remote access facility, and the user sat there in shock as outlook kept deleting the mail. also, the constant prompts to 'urgently' close the business software for an update...
so a return to thin clients seems to be a healthy direction to me.
(i'll just keep using my linux laptop).
The constant prompts to apply security updates after user has been dismissing them for 15 days running. Yeah, always a conundrum how enforce update policies, especially if you want to make attestations about devices connecting to or hosting company data. I’m not sure how to make it any better - assuming the constraints of some updates needing programs to close or reboots - other than the current process of nagging for a while and then forcing if the nagging hasn’t worked.
They reinvented thin clients. Expensive ones, with an extra Windows license needed I suppose. How revolutionary...
Thin clients on a local network are one thing.
These over a (possibly flaky) internet connection is another.
Maybe in some countries/cities/locations where there is a "perfect" conection they may work, otherwise the 365 part of the name will need to be changed to the low 300's.
These over a (possibly flaky) internet connection is another.
Maybe in some countries/cities/locations where there is a "perfect" conection they may work, otherwise the 365 part of the name will need to be changed to the low 300's.
Development using remote machines is very common in the finance and Healthcare industries if you're a contractor. You do all of your work by using remote desktop onto a machine hosted in some datacenter that could be hundreds of miles away from you.
The latency can sometimes cause issues, but for the most part it works and people are able to get things done.
If Microsoft can get the latency down to what I get using Game Pass, I won't even notice that I'm using a remote machine as long as I have a working internet connection.
The latency can sometimes cause issues, but for the most part it works and people are able to get things done.
If Microsoft can get the latency down to what I get using Game Pass, I won't even notice that I'm using a remote machine as long as I have a working internet connection.
Not to mention the frequent cloud outages, even when your workplace has perfect internet connectivity.
Whilst I appreciate the humour, the "365" wouldn't need changing because your WAN is not what MS is selling. That's not how SLAs for SaaS work.
I'll see myself out!
I'll see myself out!
Ah yes, but will it let me show seconds on the clock in the taskbar / system tray?
That is the real measure of a remote PC.
That is the real measure of a remote PC.
Google is one company that has traditionally focused on light clients (Chromebooks) for its employees and now wants all developers to use cloud desktops. This is just a logical extension of this trend for Enterprises.
That resembles me the Sun thin clients. I really regret that Sun was acquired by Oracle.
They were really cool yes. The Sun Rays. Just stick your smart card in any terminal and all your stuff was there instantly.
That sounds like a really cool thing, me being able to walk around everywhere and just swipe my card to any computer to access my stuff.
Of course, this is a double edged sword.
Of course, this is a double edged sword.
The beginning of the end. What term to use about such non-general-purpose appliances ?
Dumb terminals. Just like the Motorola X-Window ones I briefly used in the early 90s, that essentially were doorstoppers without a connection to their central server.
There were technical reasons behind the adoption of that kind of infrastructure back then as processing power and storage were extremely costly, but today there's no reason to go back that route if not for pure and simple greed.
One of my thoughts in my journal is the idea of "cloud integrated desktop", that lets me create cloud resources with a GUI and outsource computation to clusters of machines.
I can right click a program and click "Outsource" and send it to the cloud.
For example, I could have my data synchronized and indexed remotely (on cloud instances I control), for searches to happen against the cloud for finding resources fast locally. The searches would be extremely performant because there is more cloud resources than the local machine. Search can be parallelised and distributed.
Another idea of a cloud integrated desktop is to have my settings, open programs and their states synchronized with the cloud, a bit like Linux workstations that you can resume execution from anywhere.
I can right click a program and click "Outsource" and send it to the cloud.
For example, I could have my data synchronized and indexed remotely (on cloud instances I control), for searches to happen against the cloud for finding resources fast locally. The searches would be extremely performant because there is more cloud resources than the local machine. Search can be parallelised and distributed.
Another idea of a cloud integrated desktop is to have my settings, open programs and their states synchronized with the cloud, a bit like Linux workstations that you can resume execution from anywhere.
Already exists in some way: https://techbase.kde.org/KDE_PIM/Akonadi
Store your home directory remotely, have a remote MariaDB/PostgreSQL holding the index and it does exactly what you describe.
However, that is not the standard configuration of course.
However, that is not the standard configuration of course.
My dream would be some Linux distribution that lets me sign into AWS and creates the relevant cloud infrastructure for me as part of installation or setup after installation.
I would want it to be standard and recommended.
I would want it to be standard and recommended.
I’ve thought of taking this a step further and making an entire posix OS on top of an AWS account with a sort of web based terminal.
If you think about it an AWS account is the equivalent of a virtual machine running an OS. It has users/groups (IAM), storage, processes (lambda), a scheduler (EventBridge), containers (EC2). It would be a fun exercise to build an abstraction layer on top that emulated a posix OS.
If you think about it an AWS account is the equivalent of a virtual machine running an OS. It has users/groups (IAM), storage, processes (lambda), a scheduler (EventBridge), containers (EC2). It would be a fun exercise to build an abstraction layer on top that emulated a posix OS.
There may be a time in the future when you will be suspected of a crime if you are looking for a local hard drive to buy.
- Why do you need local storage? Do you have anything to hide?
- Why do you need local storage? Do you have anything to hide?
No good will come if this.
I'm sure plenty of good will come from it. I'm sure people who don't need significant performance all the time will get access to that performance without needing to buy an expensive GPU, and it will put computer access into the hands of people who only have locked-down iPhones or iPads.
It's not for you or me. That's valid. But to ignore that a significant number of people could actually benefit from it is disingenuous.
It's not for you or me. That's valid. But to ignore that a significant number of people could actually benefit from it is disingenuous.