Invisibility Training for Motorcyclists [video](youtube.com)
youtube.com
Invisibility Training for Motorcyclists [video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x94PGgYKHQ0
102 comments
> Brake with a wheel on a piece of cardboard and chances are you'll just slide. Same for an oil slick.
Also autumn leaves. Like sheets of graphene.
It's worth remembering that a car will always brake faster and turn more sharply than a motorbike.
It's also worth remembering that after every rain, the road is slick for a half hour or so while all the oily crap and rubbery crap washes off.
Also autumn leaves. Like sheets of graphene.
It's worth remembering that a car will always brake faster and turn more sharply than a motorbike.
It's also worth remembering that after every rain, the road is slick for a half hour or so while all the oily crap and rubbery crap washes off.
> Also autumn leaves. Like sheets of graphene.
Zebra pedestrian crossings as well after it has rained:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra_crossing
Wet road paint can be slippery AF (also applies to bicyclists).
Zebra pedestrian crossings as well after it has rained:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra_crossing
Wet road paint can be slippery AF (also applies to bicyclists).
Not sure why this was downvoted, i really agree with that.
And patched cracks (using bitumen with a lower melting point than asphalt's) are also slippery af in the summer heat.
I keep doing some controlled slips to stay somewhat accustomed to the gut feeling which prevents driving errors when a minor slip happens (like going over man hole cover when leaning, or having a slight/controlled slip on mended cracks in a corner).
And patched cracks (using bitumen with a lower melting point than asphalt's) are also slippery af in the summer heat.
I keep doing some controlled slips to stay somewhat accustomed to the gut feeling which prevents driving errors when a minor slip happens (like going over man hole cover when leaning, or having a slight/controlled slip on mended cracks in a corner).
How are you practicing your controlled slips?
Only when I'm in the mood.
There's a bit of a lower than street/asphalt-level manhole cover in a calm corner here. I just go over this one with a bit of an angle, started very gentle and increased speed/leaning angle a bit over time. Not for race bikes, though.
Then, when I see long-drawn-out mended cracksin a corner when its hot, sometimes I try to induce a slip on those. Takes some courage though, but the slip wont be as bad, because the patches are only one to two centimeters wide (the cracks are parallel to the road).
I ride a light dualsports bike, a KTM 790 Adventure. It has spoke wheels and takes the abuse without an issue. And it also has all the electronic features (6-axle IMU, traction control, etc).
It's just that my bum knows how a slip feels and to prevent a bad reaction in case an (semi scary) involuntary one happens. That has served me well so far, saved me from reacting badly when I was surprised in a shady & moist corner and so on.
Edit: added more text to clarify + typos corrected
There's a bit of a lower than street/asphalt-level manhole cover in a calm corner here. I just go over this one with a bit of an angle, started very gentle and increased speed/leaning angle a bit over time. Not for race bikes, though.
Then, when I see long-drawn-out mended cracksin a corner when its hot, sometimes I try to induce a slip on those. Takes some courage though, but the slip wont be as bad, because the patches are only one to two centimeters wide (the cracks are parallel to the road).
I ride a light dualsports bike, a KTM 790 Adventure. It has spoke wheels and takes the abuse without an issue. And it also has all the electronic features (6-axle IMU, traction control, etc).
It's just that my bum knows how a slip feels and to prevent a bad reaction in case an (semi scary) involuntary one happens. That has served me well so far, saved me from reacting badly when I was surprised in a shady & moist corner and so on.
Edit: added more text to clarify + typos corrected
I'm a big proponent of this method. I do the same thing several times each winter in my car using an empty parking lot.
Practice feeling comfortable sliding and recovering so you don't have a bad reflex and overcorrect. Absolutely saved my ass one time a few years ago driving home from work.
I was on a 55 and the roads were dry and clear. I came around a slight curve that runs next to some woods and hit black ice immediately. I lightly tapped the gas and tokyo-drifted back to the center of the lane. Felt just like what I had practiced and I felt calm while doing it. Had I panicked and slammed on the brakes, I would have gone sideways into the woods at 55.
Practice feeling comfortable sliding and recovering so you don't have a bad reflex and overcorrect. Absolutely saved my ass one time a few years ago driving home from work.
I was on a 55 and the roads were dry and clear. I came around a slight curve that runs next to some woods and hit black ice immediately. I lightly tapped the gas and tokyo-drifted back to the center of the lane. Felt just like what I had practiced and I felt calm while doing it. Had I panicked and slammed on the brakes, I would have gone sideways into the woods at 55.
I do this too, and I've had every vehicle I've ever owned very, very unintentionally sideways and never wrecked because there's zero panic as I've been there before.
I'd go so far as to say this is something that should be taught formally, we'd probably reduce traffic accidents significantly.
I'd go so far as to say this is something that should be taught formally, we'd probably reduce traffic accidents significantly.
Getting into "track racing" (or taking some courses) would be one good way:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_racing
Also any kind of dirt / motocross riding (and training) would probably help. Basically getting off of asphalt and into the dirt.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_racing
Also any kind of dirt / motocross riding (and training) would probably help. Basically getting off of asphalt and into the dirt.
It's because of bad paint. Some places use cheap, generic paint and some will use the one with proper grip.
You can sometimes tell in advance by the texture. It's a gamble I personally wouldn't take.
You can sometimes tell in advance by the texture. It's a gamble I personally wouldn't take.
Streetcar tracks as well!
Cars always brake faster, except when the car is behind you, in which case it will brake slower than you in a straight line (and you'll get rear-ended if you stop too quickly).
If I ever need to stop very quickly, I try to end up in the "lane split" position, stopped in between two stopped vehicles. This has saved me from some nasty rear-end collisions a few times.
If I ever need to stop very quickly, I try to end up in the "lane split" position, stopped in between two stopped vehicles. This has saved me from some nasty rear-end collisions a few times.
That's a ninja move my mom once did - cars rear ending each other in front, doing an emergency swerve in to the next lane and the guy who was behind her slamming in to the ones who were in front. That was in car. It's very difficult to suddenly swerve at speed on a motorbike.
It's very _easy_ to swerve at speed on a motorbike. In fact, it's part of the UK's motorbike license test ('hazard avoidance'). You are required to go through a speed trap at 50km/h+ and swerve approx 1m out of your riding line and come to a controlled stop. I did the swerve at 63km/h.
All it takes to swerve at speed is a small shove on the appropriate side of the handlebar, and 1m should be enough to put you either into the 'lane split' or into the other lane entirely.
All it takes to swerve at speed is a small shove on the appropriate side of the handlebar, and 1m should be enough to put you either into the 'lane split' or into the other lane entirely.
I'd be way more hesitant to recommend that move in a car. With a motorcycle splitting lanes, there's a low chance anyone will be between lanes and if there is someone there, it's the motorcyclist that will likely suffer the consequences so they'll have a high level of awareness. On top of that, being squished between two cars is a much riskier place to be for a motorcyclist then a car.
I say this because I had a friend who was killed when another driver swerved into her lane while trying to avoid rear ending another car. In that case, rear ending the other car would've been way safer. So yeah, just be absolutely certain the lane you're swerving into is clear. That should go without say but apparently it didn't for the woman that killed my friend (and I bet she thought she was pulling off a ninja move until it was too late).
I say this because I had a friend who was killed when another driver swerved into her lane while trying to avoid rear ending another car. In that case, rear ending the other car would've been way safer. So yeah, just be absolutely certain the lane you're swerving into is clear. That should go without say but apparently it didn't for the woman that killed my friend (and I bet she thought she was pulling off a ninja move until it was too late).
I've seen two people try to do the same ninja move and they just ended up hitting each other.
> It's also worth remembering that after every rain, the road is slick for a half hour or so while all the oily crap and rubbery crap washes off.
Advice from my dad (who's an ex rally driver) is "if you can see tires leaving tracks in the rain, it's not safe".
Also, black ice is something.
Advice from my dad (who's an ex rally driver) is "if you can see tires leaving tracks in the rain, it's not safe".
Also, black ice is something.
Finland has a running joke about "black ice surprised drivers this morning" as an annual news headline that really shouldn't surprise anyone anymore.
There's different levels of black ice. I guess I had a lot of experience and even hit black ice and used my skills to avoid problems but this one time I crested a hill and then entire downhill portion had just frozen from shoulder to shoulder. I wasn't speeding and I had winter tires but the only thing that would have saved me is studs. The car started to drift on the crested highway and my wife even had enough time to ask "Are we going to crash" and I replied yes - and we did! It was a weird feeling having ZERO input - steering wheel - acceleration - brake - nothing.
The point is to learn when & where black ice might be, and slow your speed before you get to that spot. And more generally, drive at speeds appropriate for conditions, even outside of black ice.
Black ice tends to have pretty specific weather conditions and locations (bridges, valley shapes, etc); the newspaper headline shows up at the same time of the year, every year, and sometimes mentions the same location.
Black ice tends to have pretty specific weather conditions and locations (bridges, valley shapes, etc); the newspaper headline shows up at the same time of the year, every year, and sometimes mentions the same location.
I'm in Canada. There are teenagers and immigrants from warmer climes encountering black ice for the first time every year.
Last I checked, training for slippery conditions was part of the mandatory driver education for getting a license in Finland, so "new driver" is a relatively poor excuse for that over there.
(The annual rear-ending fest seems to mostly cater to the "I've driven this route to work for years" audience.)
(The annual rear-ending fest seems to mostly cater to the "I've driven this route to work for years" audience.)
Indeed, there are certainly more accidents than new drivers. Likewise, in the pacific northwest, first rain after summer is a perpetual learning experience. But you've got me curious: do drivers experience slippery conditions before they get their license or are they merely lectured about them?
Yes. "Hazard recognition" is a separate 8-hour block of education that includes slippery conditions and darkness, and is done "on the track", not in a classroom. As far as I know e.g. the moose evasion maneuver is still part of that, and you'll be in a tailspin at least a couple of times during that day.
Before you get to that, you'll have completed minimum 4 h classroom safety training, 10 h driving with instructor, and whatever amount of theory training gets you to pass the theory test (generally two calendar months studying on the side of being in high school).
Slippery conditions aren't really hard to find in Finland. I think the black ice phenomena is really more about distracted driving.
Before you get to that, you'll have completed minimum 4 h classroom safety training, 10 h driving with instructor, and whatever amount of theory training gets you to pass the theory test (generally two calendar months studying on the side of being in high school).
Slippery conditions aren't really hard to find in Finland. I think the black ice phenomena is really more about distracted driving.
Wow, that sounds amazing. Growing up in Seattle, the skills we got drilled on were "backing around a corner" and "parallel parking". The latter of which is always appreciated wherever I go... the former is uniformly met with bafflement. Later in life, I would learn that cherry blossoms are the prettiest form of black ice -- thankfully, that happened after I taught myself to recover a tailspin in a snowy parking lot.
To add some anecdotes on the content of that 8 hours:
In the dark, how far ahead can you see a pedestrian without reflector / with reflector at waist level / with reflector at knee level, with/without high beams. How much is that in seconds while driving at inner city / street / highway speeds.
I remember an icy bend of the road, and they told us find the maximum speed we can have at a marked line before the bend, and still make that corner staying inside our lane. So, obviously, you'd spin out a couple of times trying to find the threshold. The implied lesson was that the max speed was much lower than most thought it would be.
Same thing with the moose evasion: What's the highest speed at which you can still successfully brake, let go of brakes, swerve to one side, miss moose marker, re-orient with road, and start braking again (in real life: not go in a ditch / hit a pole, come to a controlled stop).
And after people had gotten a few rounds of "getting the feel for it" on the challenges, they gave us a minimum approach speed for each, and you had to avoid a crash from that speed to pass for the day.
In the dark, how far ahead can you see a pedestrian without reflector / with reflector at waist level / with reflector at knee level, with/without high beams. How much is that in seconds while driving at inner city / street / highway speeds.
I remember an icy bend of the road, and they told us find the maximum speed we can have at a marked line before the bend, and still make that corner staying inside our lane. So, obviously, you'd spin out a couple of times trying to find the threshold. The implied lesson was that the max speed was much lower than most thought it would be.
Same thing with the moose evasion: What's the highest speed at which you can still successfully brake, let go of brakes, swerve to one side, miss moose marker, re-orient with road, and start braking again (in real life: not go in a ditch / hit a pole, come to a controlled stop).
And after people had gotten a few rounds of "getting the feel for it" on the challenges, they gave us a minimum approach speed for each, and you had to avoid a crash from that speed to pass for the day.
Same conclusions.
And children, dogs, birds, metal plaques...
So many things out of your control, so just assume the worst, all the time if you want to survive.
Motorbikes are just dangerous, that's it.
Another thing I'd add: say no to ridding under the rain.
Don't buy a better suit, better tires, adapt your schedule and run slowly.
Just don't use it.
There is nothing in the world you can do that will make it much safer. It's a death trap. Bite the bullet, and use something else.
But who am I kidding, young me would have read that comment, say "mehhh", and just ride the storm anyway :)
And children, dogs, birds, metal plaques...
So many things out of your control, so just assume the worst, all the time if you want to survive.
Motorbikes are just dangerous, that's it.
Another thing I'd add: say no to ridding under the rain.
Don't buy a better suit, better tires, adapt your schedule and run slowly.
Just don't use it.
There is nothing in the world you can do that will make it much safer. It's a death trap. Bite the bullet, and use something else.
But who am I kidding, young me would have read that comment, say "mehhh", and just ride the storm anyway :)
I was riding a rented bike through the Coromandel outside Auckland one day on holidays many years ago, with my girlfriend on the back. Loads of nice wide curves and mountain climbs. I’m not a particularly aggressive driver but the road was clear and I was certainly fanging it from time to time.
Towards the end of the trip, the roads were mostly downhill. It’s easy to go too fast for the corners, so I back off a bit, but am still having fun.
We passed a sign saying “caution, winding road”. Great!
Then a minute or so later, we passed a sign saying “warning: falling rocks”. Ok.
Another minute and we passed a sign saying “slippery when wet”. Well it’s not raining so I’m good.
Then less than a minute later it started raining, seemingly out of nowhere.
I sat up straight in my seat, dialled the throttle back and decided the rest of the ride would be entirely defensive.
$DIETY had given me enough warnings for one day.
Towards the end of the trip, the roads were mostly downhill. It’s easy to go too fast for the corners, so I back off a bit, but am still having fun.
We passed a sign saying “caution, winding road”. Great!
Then a minute or so later, we passed a sign saying “warning: falling rocks”. Ok.
Another minute and we passed a sign saying “slippery when wet”. Well it’s not raining so I’m good.
Then less than a minute later it started raining, seemingly out of nowhere.
I sat up straight in my seat, dialled the throttle back and decided the rest of the ride would be entirely defensive.
$DIETY had given me enough warnings for one day.
My Grandfather lost a leg to a motorcycle accident in 1944/1945. He was riding the while line past a military convoy in the UK as a dispatch rider when unfortunately he met someone doing the same in the opposite direction.
He had a succession of prosthetic legs, the technology was always improving but one thing he said never changed: The clinics were always full of lads in their late teens. Year after year.
He had a succession of prosthetic legs, the technology was always improving but one thing he said never changed: The clinics were always full of lads in their late teens. Year after year.
> Motorbikes are just dangerous, that's it.
I would extend that to anything with two wheels at a speed of 30km/h+.
A while ago I restored my bicycle after years of it gathering dust in the cellar and now that I'm older and more aware of risks I see how much I have to think ahead to not run over anyone.
At certain, low from a car driver's standpoint, speeds a bicycle will just go straight unless of course you decide to slide.
I would extend that to anything with two wheels at a speed of 30km/h+.
A while ago I restored my bicycle after years of it gathering dust in the cellar and now that I'm older and more aware of risks I see how much I have to think ahead to not run over anyone.
At certain, low from a car driver's standpoint, speeds a bicycle will just go straight unless of course you decide to slide.
Indeed, but strangely 2 wheels is the sweet spot for fun as well.
Such a hard choice.
Such a hard choice.
The friction coefficients in rain aren’t bad if you’re riding at posted speeds, outside of solid metal and painted lines. It’s riding right after it starts raining that you want to avoid - all of the oils which drip from vehicles get displaced by the initial deluge, and that is slippery stuff.
First, that's a lot of if, second, that's not nearly all the if, and finally, there are a lot of if about things that are not you.
> “…say no to ridding under the rain.”
I use my moto for Moto camping upstate New York. I plan my trips to avoid storms, but they happen never the less. And I love my super banana suit. It keeps me comfortable while I’m trying to hold my $#!t together out on the highway.
I grew up in CA and every year people go nuts with the first rains. Lots of accidents. Same happens here—especially the spring and early summer rains. People lose their minds and forget how to drive.
Slow down. Increase following distance. And if you’re on a moto, watch for manhole covers, leaves, road markings which can be slick.
And not running your tires to slick helps, too.
I use my moto for Moto camping upstate New York. I plan my trips to avoid storms, but they happen never the less. And I love my super banana suit. It keeps me comfortable while I’m trying to hold my $#!t together out on the highway.
I grew up in CA and every year people go nuts with the first rains. Lots of accidents. Same happens here—especially the spring and early summer rains. People lose their minds and forget how to drive.
Slow down. Increase following distance. And if you’re on a moto, watch for manhole covers, leaves, road markings which can be slick.
And not running your tires to slick helps, too.
Wind can also be a nightmare. When riding on a highway in Spain, south of Barcelona I was sure I was going to die cause the wind just blew me all over the place.
"The number of times I've shit flying out of or off of cars & trucks"
I'll take that very seriously in my car too - and back off if I see a badly loaded vehicle. There's not much protection from a windshield.
I'll take that very seriously in my car too - and back off if I see a badly loaded vehicle. There's not much protection from a windshield.
I remember following a small towed trailer with some old bins on a motorbike. A pretty normal round bin lid blew off and veered to the side - nowhere near me.
I had time to register it happening but not sure I had time to move much - and I'm pretty sure it could've wiped me out. I paid a bit more attention to loads after that - but I suspect the lesson slowly faded.
I had time to register it happening but not sure I had time to move much - and I'm pretty sure it could've wiped me out. I paid a bit more attention to loads after that - but I suspect the lesson slowly faded.
I recall when deciding to get a private pilot license or a motorcycle that something like 50-60% of motorcycle deaths were not the cyclist's fault.
But that only 10% of the pilots were blameless.
If you're on a motorcycle you have to treat everyone and everything as out to get you, because they are.
But that only 10% of the pilots were blameless.
If you're on a motorcycle you have to treat everyone and everything as out to get you, because they are.
Hmm ... there's this famous study that examined a whole lot of motorcycle crashes and if I recall correctly, the vast majority of injuries & death were due to: lack of experience, being close to home (when you just set off or about to arrive at your destination your guard just isn't up yet / anymore), being under the influence, excessive speed etc.
When you filter all these elements out (you're a rider with experience who "knows" the traffic and doesn't do stupid) then it's safer then you'd think.
After so many years of riding a bike in the city I feel like I just have a sixth sense about how cars are going to behave. It can be really small things. For example a car with plates from out of town approaching a crossroads driving a little too slow is probably wondering where the hell he should turn and is likely to suddenly change course, so keep your distance. And if you look several cars ahead you can predict what the car in front of you is likely to do.
When you filter all these elements out (you're a rider with experience who "knows" the traffic and doesn't do stupid) then it's safer then you'd think.
After so many years of riding a bike in the city I feel like I just have a sixth sense about how cars are going to behave. It can be really small things. For example a car with plates from out of town approaching a crossroads driving a little too slow is probably wondering where the hell he should turn and is likely to suddenly change course, so keep your distance. And if you look several cars ahead you can predict what the car in front of you is likely to do.
They say that there are two kinds of motorcyclists: those who have had a crash and those who will. I've been riding for 10 years now and haven't had mine yet, thankfully.
But I get unreasonably annoyed when people who don't ride, or are very new to riding, parrot statistics about rider injury and mortality rates compared to cars and essentially wag their finger in smug disapproval. The reality is that the "dangerousness" of motorcycling is nuanced. You are not simply X times more likely to die on a motorcycle than in a car, there are a whole host of factors involved, like: Did you take a safety class? Do you look for opportunities to improve your safety? Is your bike well-maintained? Did you inspect it before riding? Are you completely sober and awake? Are you stressed or worried about something? Are you wearing your helmet and gear? Is your gear reflective and/or bright? Do you typically ride along in your own little world or are you constantly scanning your environment for danger?
Around here, the two most common kinds of riders are pirates (on Harleys) and squids (on sport bikes) tend not to worry about trivial details such as these and both groups represent motorcycling quite poorly in the safety department. They generally don't wear helmets (or any riding gear at all), tend to have obnoxiously loud exhausts (which don't save lives), and are attracted to motorcycles as a means to achieve a certain kind of personal image and/or to fit in with their desired peer group.
There is a third, smaller group that believes you don't have to sacrifice much fun in order to get quite a lot of (relative) safety. I like to think I am part of this group. I would love to see some research comparing motorcycle-related injury rates, taking into account more factors than just, "was the vehicle a motorcycle or not?" I suspect that a safety-conscious rider is not THAT much more at risk than the average car driver. (Accounting of course for the fact that riders are not surrounded by a strong steel cage.)
But I get unreasonably annoyed when people who don't ride, or are very new to riding, parrot statistics about rider injury and mortality rates compared to cars and essentially wag their finger in smug disapproval. The reality is that the "dangerousness" of motorcycling is nuanced. You are not simply X times more likely to die on a motorcycle than in a car, there are a whole host of factors involved, like: Did you take a safety class? Do you look for opportunities to improve your safety? Is your bike well-maintained? Did you inspect it before riding? Are you completely sober and awake? Are you stressed or worried about something? Are you wearing your helmet and gear? Is your gear reflective and/or bright? Do you typically ride along in your own little world or are you constantly scanning your environment for danger?
Around here, the two most common kinds of riders are pirates (on Harleys) and squids (on sport bikes) tend not to worry about trivial details such as these and both groups represent motorcycling quite poorly in the safety department. They generally don't wear helmets (or any riding gear at all), tend to have obnoxiously loud exhausts (which don't save lives), and are attracted to motorcycles as a means to achieve a certain kind of personal image and/or to fit in with their desired peer group.
There is a third, smaller group that believes you don't have to sacrifice much fun in order to get quite a lot of (relative) safety. I like to think I am part of this group. I would love to see some research comparing motorcycle-related injury rates, taking into account more factors than just, "was the vehicle a motorcycle or not?" I suspect that a safety-conscious rider is not THAT much more at risk than the average car driver. (Accounting of course for the fact that riders are not surrounded by a strong steel cage.)
That last parenthetical does a lot of heavy lifting; most cagers (if they're honest) have a few near misses in the last year that could have been entirely deadly if they had been on a motorbike. Mine was slipping on ice during a turn and bouncing off the center median.
I suspect that your third group becomes better drivers in all vehicles because they learn more things to pay attention to, which permeates everything you do.
I suspect that your third group becomes better drivers in all vehicles because they learn more things to pay attention to, which permeates everything you do.
It’s not an exact science in either case - the NTSB attributes crashes to the pilot for things like “flew into clouds as a visual pilot” even if the proximate cause of death was controlled flight into terrain.
The kicker for me is you can do everything perfectly correctly and a drunk driver sideswipes you and you’re just a list of organs available.
It wasn’t for me; I’m not saying it’s not for others.
But if you do want to ride, take those defensive motorcycle courses and, like a pilot, be willing to say “today is not my day to ride” and don’t mix alcohol (the eight hour bottle to throttle is a good rule for any piece of heavy machinery).
The kicker for me is you can do everything perfectly correctly and a drunk driver sideswipes you and you’re just a list of organs available.
It wasn’t for me; I’m not saying it’s not for others.
But if you do want to ride, take those defensive motorcycle courses and, like a pilot, be willing to say “today is not my day to ride” and don’t mix alcohol (the eight hour bottle to throttle is a good rule for any piece of heavy machinery).
> It wasn’t for me; I’m not saying it’s not for others.
It was for me for a while until I got the fear after a near crash, became a father and ... it's not really worth it anymore. Still get dark thoughts about all the close calls I had and stupid shit I did (riding 6K km through Africa with fork oil dripping all over my front break disk). Problem is as soon as I get on the bike I become fearless again.
> The kicker for me is you can do everything perfectly correctly and a drunk driver sideswipes you and you’re just a list of organs available.
Yeah that's the old "you have to get it right all the time, they only need to get it right once"
It was for me for a while until I got the fear after a near crash, became a father and ... it's not really worth it anymore. Still get dark thoughts about all the close calls I had and stupid shit I did (riding 6K km through Africa with fork oil dripping all over my front break disk). Problem is as soon as I get on the bike I become fearless again.
> The kicker for me is you can do everything perfectly correctly and a drunk driver sideswipes you and you’re just a list of organs available.
Yeah that's the old "you have to get it right all the time, they only need to get it right once"
Everyone always just-worlds the Universe. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FUHfiS7X0AAe-XD.jpg
Common in SF as the anti-theft rock. You keep it hidden in your car to prevent the car from being broken into. Works really well.
Common in SF as the anti-theft rock. You keep it hidden in your car to prevent the car from being broken into. Works really well.
> If you're on a motorcycle you have to treat everyone and everything as out to get you, because they are.
That's not the best way to put it because it implies that motorists will purposefully try to crash into motorcyclists. In reality, it's due to inattention and the risk of a collision can be reduced by the motorcyclist through defensive driving techniques. For example, when approaching an intersection, is there a motorist approaching or waiting there who could cross my path? What's my plan to avoid that? It comes down to planning rather than reacting.
That's not the best way to put it because it implies that motorists will purposefully try to crash into motorcyclists. In reality, it's due to inattention and the risk of a collision can be reduced by the motorcyclist through defensive driving techniques. For example, when approaching an intersection, is there a motorist approaching or waiting there who could cross my path? What's my plan to avoid that? It comes down to planning rather than reacting.
Sure, but the idea that "well there's no way that driver who just made eye contact with me would pull out in front of me" is not a thought you want to have; they may not have actually seen you.
If they really were all you to get you, you'd be dead.
If they really were all you to get you, you'd be dead.
Those statistics sounded fascinating at first - but when I thought about it more, I wondered whether they actually show anything?
I mean, presumably in 2-vehicle collisions one person is at fault. So "50% of people not at fault" is just the baseline (if all collisions are 2-vehicle)
Whereas presumably collisions between aircraft are very rare.
I mean, presumably in 2-vehicle collisions one person is at fault. So "50% of people not at fault" is just the baseline (if all collisions are 2-vehicle)
Whereas presumably collisions between aircraft are very rare.
Motorcycles have plenty of ways to kill you without a second vehicle, though.
Significant numbers of motorcycle fatalities are single vehicle crashes; and of those, many are not the motorcyclists "fault" as you could commonly ascribe it (hitting an unknown oil slick that wasn't the center of the lane on a turn, hitting the guard rail, and somersaulting over the handlebars and down a cliff).
> If you're on a motorcycle you have to treat everyone and everything as out to get you, because they are.
To me it’s more of a "You are the only one with a vested interest in you making it home alive and in one piece".
To me it’s more of a "You are the only one with a vested interest in you making it home alive and in one piece".
You are right!
This video should be shown at driving schools to remind everyone that shit can happen at _any_ time and hit _hard_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOosn78WsMg
This video should be shown at driving schools to remind everyone that shit can happen at _any_ time and hit _hard_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOosn78WsMg
I checked the source and confirmed no one in the car was seriously hurt.
So I will say it:
The way the tire shows up again after the mega damage: just slowly rolling up into the accident; was a pretty good comic beat.
So I will say it:
The way the tire shows up again after the mega damage: just slowly rolling up into the accident; was a pretty good comic beat.
> Same for an oil slick
I've had trouble a couple of times, at a full stop, just balancing the bike when there's a bit of oil with fresh rain.
I've had trouble a couple of times, at a full stop, just balancing the bike when there's a bit of oil with fresh rain.
> seen shit flying out of or off of cars & trucks
“Road furniture” as they call it in MSF
“Road furniture” as they call it in MSF
This video is great. Almost all my potential accidents that ended in a deep sight were in really familiar places.
I have a side job delivering pizzas on a motorcycle. Recently I had an accident by myself, I slipped out of the road but not too fast, around 75kmh (50 mph). The falling was terrifying but I had luck to not have any really severe injury.
This experience made me reflect on all the crazy things I did with the bike where I could easily had died. So I feel lucky. I'll try to go slower and be extra vigilant. What really terrifies me are people who don't know how to drive (I live in a touristic area) and you spot them immediately.
Also phones, keep them down or hold them on a mount but don't hold them with your hands!
I have a side job delivering pizzas on a motorcycle. Recently I had an accident by myself, I slipped out of the road but not too fast, around 75kmh (50 mph). The falling was terrifying but I had luck to not have any really severe injury.
This experience made me reflect on all the crazy things I did with the bike where I could easily had died. So I feel lucky. I'll try to go slower and be extra vigilant. What really terrifies me are people who don't know how to drive (I live in a touristic area) and you spot them immediately.
Also phones, keep them down or hold them on a mount but don't hold them with your hands!
> but don't hold them with your hands!
I invite you to Indian cities of today. A large fraction of riders is on a conversation on mobile phone -- either held up to ear by one hand or with the mobile pinched between ear and shoulder.
How they manage to get home alive every day - I don't know.
I invite you to Indian cities of today. A large fraction of riders is on a conversation on mobile phone -- either held up to ear by one hand or with the mobile pinched between ear and shoulder.
How they manage to get home alive every day - I don't know.
The answer is they don't
https://www.bikesrepublic.com/featured/10-countries-with-the...
near 100k fatalities per year. Granted it is well populated country but still.
https://www.bikesrepublic.com/featured/10-countries-with-the...
near 100k fatalities per year. Granted it is well populated country but still.
There are 21E7 motorbikes in India [1], so at 100k deaths/year, that is 4.8E-4 deaths/motorbike.
The US has 8.6 million motorbikes [2] deaths and 5172 deaths [3]. That is 6E-4 deaths/motorbike.
Now, the better metric would be deaths/kms. But at least on the above metric, India is doing fine.
[1] https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto/news/india-has-over-21-...
[2] https://www.iihs.org/api/datastoredocument/bibliography/2225
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_fatality_rate_in_U....
The US has 8.6 million motorbikes [2] deaths and 5172 deaths [3]. That is 6E-4 deaths/motorbike.
Now, the better metric would be deaths/kms. But at least on the above metric, India is doing fine.
[1] https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto/news/india-has-over-21-...
[2] https://www.iihs.org/api/datastoredocument/bibliography/2225
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_fatality_rate_in_U....
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My phone stays in my pocket. No music. Only GPS via my Sena headset when needed. I cut calls short until I can pullover or arrive to talk. I saw a woman driving with her elbows to put face makeup on as I passed. I revved as I passed her open window. She probably had Pelosi eyebrows after ;) People texting in cars or high as a kite on weed. I drive loud and bright and aggressive. Been riding since 1983. I was a moto messenger in NYC back then. Learning to actually ride and control a moto as opposed to just commuting has given me some really neat skills to avoid the inevitable bad situation by pulling off some maneuvers you only learn by pushing it. Drive a car if you don't want to really ride.
I've been riding since I was 18, and I am now almost 60, so I know a bit about reading traffic and being vigilant. It has also made me a better car driver, because the head-on-a-swivel never quits! Complacency is the cause of most accidents. I had over 400 technical dives repairing underwater hydraulics and electronics as well as rope work at height and it is when the 'expert' gets complacent that the accident happens. Now with driving a motorcycle you are the alert one, and there are many passive, complacent drivers.
Complimentary material about the SMIDSY problem (sorry, mate, I didn't see you) from someone else, including a visibility manoeuver f9 doesn't mention.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eqQBubilSXU
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eqQBubilSXU
This maneuver can work, but I think in many scenarios drivers aren't looking up the road long enough to see it; drivers usually pull up to a junction and glance briefly in both directions, so there isn't enough time for the motorcyclist to start the maneuver and be spotted.
The best advice I've seen for maximizing visibility is 1) have two headlights instead of one, 2) be mindful of your lane position, riding a little closer to the center line will maximize visibility at junctions.
And of course, never rely on visibility to ride safe. Defensive riding is always the priority. You should see and prepare for the dangerous junctions long before a driver needs to see you approaching it.
(Been riding for 8 years and no accidents)
The best advice I've seen for maximizing visibility is 1) have two headlights instead of one, 2) be mindful of your lane position, riding a little closer to the center line will maximize visibility at junctions.
And of course, never rely on visibility to ride safe. Defensive riding is always the priority. You should see and prepare for the dangerous junctions long before a driver needs to see you approaching it.
(Been riding for 8 years and no accidents)
This is a good video, but in reality there isn't much you can do, as a rider, to become visible. You need to assume nobody sees you, and you have to see for everyone else.
You also have to guess where people will be going before they know it themselves. It sounds a little magic and impossible, but after a while it becomes second nature.
Just don't count on other drivers seeing you, because
1/ they don't
2/ many hate you, and think it's fun to make your life difficult. Don't let them.
You also have to guess where people will be going before they know it themselves. It sounds a little magic and impossible, but after a while it becomes second nature.
Just don't count on other drivers seeing you, because
1/ they don't
2/ many hate you, and think it's fun to make your life difficult. Don't let them.
> but in reality there isn't much you can do, as a rider, to become visible.
Colloquially known as the SMIDSY weave. SMIDSY is "Sorry Mate, I Didn't See You", and the most significantly manifest as someone making a left turn (in the US) in front of a rider. This exact situation killed actor Treat Williams just the other day.
The SMIDSY weave is when you approach an intersection with someone waiting to turn, weave the bike across the lane. A simply swerve. This makes the bike stand out against the background clutter. Combined with the headlight, that swerve makes you look more dangerous than you were before so the drivers brain will highlight you. Going from one side of the lane to the other makes you "suddenly" appear someplace you weren't before.
It honestly takes a lot of concentration to do this, being aware of where you are, that there is a driver waiting to turn, and actually making the maneuver. Seems simple, but riders are in this situation more than you think.
But it is a simple technique that can reduce one of the most dangerous situations modern riders frequently encounter.
> You need to assume nobody sees you, and you have to see for everyone else.
This really is only applicable when going through intersections where paths can cross. A motorcyclist on the road right in front of a motorist will be seen because they're right in the center of their field of vision.
This really is only applicable when going through intersections where paths can cross. A motorcyclist on the road right in front of a motorist will be seen because they're right in the center of their field of vision.
[deleted]
I do drive and can confirm that "invisibilty" is the reason for many (if not the most) accidents. Actually, I have even changed my car driving habits to be more I would say preventive.
And yes, I do recommend Ryan F9 videos, they are really outstanding.
And yes, I do recommend Ryan F9 videos, they are really outstanding.
"I have even changed my car driving habits to be more I would say preventive."
A great reason to have cycling and motorcycling sessions as part of the driver's test.
A great reason to have cycling and motorcycling sessions as part of the driver's test.
I was lucky to learn how to ride from someone with decades of experience. Was taught early on to always prepare for the worst to happen, and one of the best ways to avoid an accident was to avoid it altogether (i.e. taking the longer/safer route around a congested city, don’t ride after dark (avoid wildlife), etc.). Its important recognize “normalization of risk” bias. Because the natural consequences of failure on a motorcycle can be so severe, its not adequate to use personal failure as a metric for riding behavior. You can always push the limits a bit further…until you cant anymore. I only crashed once…lowsided on a routine evening ride where road construction crew had left a 3” tall 90° angle curb between 2 uneven lanes. Didn’t see it in time while switching lanes. Should have been easily avoidable. A rider is fully responsible for their ride profile, no matter the conditions. Just a few lessons learned from years of riding over thousands of miles across North America. I now live in a city that I consider to be too dangerous to ride in (high speeds and driving culture has a reckless disregard for traffic laws). Thinking of picking up off-road riding again, since it fits better with my current lifestyle and hobbies.
It's handy that HN content is tracking millennials' life progression. We are all just rounding our mid life crises, so motorcycle safety, and perhaps Porsche maintenance, make a lot of sense.
I haven't seen any sailboat related content. Where are my mid-life crisis sailors at? You can get Starlink anywhere now, so you can leave land behind and go work from a big cruising sailboat probably for cheaper than owning a home.
Hello dear friend! I am sailing :) , but last years...not so much : founded a new company and that takes all the time!
But: I love to sail! For now , just the Croatian coast, marvellous. I also worked from a boat, the internet works also between islands, slower, but works. Starlink would be a nice addition.
As for the price, a 100k would bring you a nice 50 feet yacht, but the port costs would eat up a lot on top. But you can also anchor in a small gulf if you do not need supplies.
But: I love to sail! For now , just the Croatian coast, marvellous. I also worked from a boat, the internet works also between islands, slower, but works. Starlink would be a nice addition.
As for the price, a 100k would bring you a nice 50 feet yacht, but the port costs would eat up a lot on top. But you can also anchor in a small gulf if you do not need supplies.
I think our cohort bought into boats younger than previous generations - they got the house and then the boat; we never got the house, but the boat was comparatively cheap.
incredulous tone: So you are telling me what may be the best written, presented, and shot show on youtube is a (scoffs) motorcycle channel.
But really, fortnine is an amazingly well presented show, here are a few of my favorites. And I don't even own a motorcycle.
Our best sidecar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v_S8i4KSfM
Crossing Canada's only desert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2a-sUdaNJ8
The Killer Tricycle Banned by the US Government: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_C8z0rFnjk
But really, fortnine is an amazingly well presented show, here are a few of my favorites. And I don't even own a motorcycle.
Our best sidecar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v_S8i4KSfM
Crossing Canada's only desert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2a-sUdaNJ8
The Killer Tricycle Banned by the US Government: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_C8z0rFnjk
I don’t ride. I dont even have a motorcycle license. Yet I watch every Ryan F9 video :)
But why?
Watch them and see. Its some of the best content on the internet. Mind, you have to appreciate his humor and delivery, but it's got outstanding production values, it's not the same thing over and over, and he has deep knowledge of the subjects.
It's Kevin Cameron (Cameron is a famous technical columnist in the motorcycling community) combined with Bill Nye. I can't recommend any specific ones, they're all amazing.
It's Kevin Cameron (Cameron is a famous technical columnist in the motorcycling community) combined with Bill Nye. I can't recommend any specific ones, they're all amazing.
Same reason why people watch top gear, despite having no chance of getting in a hypercar.
The production values are good, and are interesting.
The production values are good, and are interesting.
Great and succinct video. The old but good, "Twist of the Wrist" was a lifesaver video for me as well, where it shows similarly how committing to curves to leverage the additional traction is safer. I was just working from a motorcycle cafe at the forks of some twisties this morning, and while there are so many philosophical analogies to be made about riding, when I meet other motorcyclists, the most interesting thing is the diversity of people who are each capable of the courage it takes to ride one.
I highly recommend the book:
Proficient Motorcycling: The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well
https://www.amazon.com/Proficient-Motorcycling-Ultimate-Guid...
Proficient Motorcycling: The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well
https://www.amazon.com/Proficient-Motorcycling-Ultimate-Guid...
This old psychology video comes to mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
Also, in San Francisco a lot of the "paint" in the crosswalks is little plastic pellets melted. I have had my rear wheel slide out going over the thick white crosswalk bars. Best to keep off the throttle and roll over them. Same for the giant metal plates they use to cover up ongoing construction projects. They can be very slippery.
Also, in San Francisco a lot of the "paint" in the crosswalks is little plastic pellets melted. I have had my rear wheel slide out going over the thick white crosswalk bars. Best to keep off the throttle and roll over them. Same for the giant metal plates they use to cover up ongoing construction projects. They can be very slippery.
The best thing I did to improve my car driving around motorcycles was getting my motorcycle license, which I don’t actually use. It was a fun 3 days learning how to ride a motorcycle, and it was highly beneficial to learn what motorcyclists are taught to watch out for. I believe a lot of what I learned should have been taught in driver’s ed. I think it would help avoid many accidents if everyone was aware of other vehicles on the road.
I hear a lot of "assume you're invisible, and nothing else".
I take it one step further, "assume they actively want to kill you."
15,000km+ all over vietnam, cambodia, laos over 4 years and 8 years in California. Zero vehicle accidents, but many many close calls.
In SE Asia, you really have to watch for collateral damage, where another accident happens and then bounces into you.
I take it one step further, "assume they actively want to kill you."
15,000km+ all over vietnam, cambodia, laos over 4 years and 8 years in California. Zero vehicle accidents, but many many close calls.
In SE Asia, you really have to watch for collateral damage, where another accident happens and then bounces into you.
I don’t ride a motorcycle but want to try to make it safer for those who do. One trick I heard someone suggest & that I’ve been doing for a while is to use the pointing and calling method[0]: when I see someone on the road not in a car I point to them and call them out, as well as what they’re doing right now. “Pedestrian crossing”, or “bicycle turning” or the like.
Does it work? I’m not sure - and of course it relies on me noticing them the first time. But research does indicate it increases attentiveness, so I’m hoping it does something.
[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling
Does it work? I’m not sure - and of course it relies on me noticing them the first time. But research does indicate it increases attentiveness, so I’m hoping it does something.
[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling
The issue is generally in noticing them the first time.
As a motorcyclist SMIDSY accidents are my worst nightmare - that is, right angle turn, car pulls out in front of the bike.
Bikes aren't super visible from a long distance and the benefit of parallax from spaced headlights is greatly reduced.
As a motorcyclist SMIDSY accidents are my worst nightmare - that is, right angle turn, car pulls out in front of the bike.
Bikes aren't super visible from a long distance and the benefit of parallax from spaced headlights is greatly reduced.
I sold my motorcycle recently but picked up a Miata. It's a little safer but I have to drive like I'm riding a motorcycle. Trucks and people on their phones don't see objects that don't fit the truck suv box.
In general, FortNine's channel[0] is incredibly informative and entertaining; many comments on his videos suggest people watch without even riding a motorcycle. See his educational, elaborate explanations of the physics of riding, market/business aspects (esp. interesting is relationship between motorcycle dealerships and manufacturers), reviews, and much more. Well worth exploring.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/@FortNine
[0] https://www.youtube.com/@FortNine
With FSD one of the first things I noticed was that the car would randomly hug one side of the lane and then I'd notice the car had moved over for motorcycle lane-splitting (which I'm entirely okay with).
I'm a car hater who hates car centric infrastructure and rules. As a cyclist I do have a beef with motorcyclists who use noise to make themselves present. Cars are freaking well sound insulated these days but my helmet isn't.
I'm a car hater who hates car centric infrastructure and rules. As a cyclist I do have a beef with motorcyclists who use noise to make themselves present. Cars are freaking well sound insulated these days but my helmet isn't.
After a 40 year hiatus, I’m giving careful consideration to riding again. While doing so I derive considerable joy from vicarious riding along with Naraly, the Netherlands greatest contribution to adventure motorcycling! https://youtube.com/@ItchyBoots
Literally JUST passed my MSF Basic RiderCourse this weekend to get my motorcycle license -- this is a nice video to add, thanks!
That was a very interesting and well made video!
This sounds very, very wrong or at least scientifically inaccurate. Human vision does not compromise of a slideshow where the brain fills in missing frames. We don't see in frames at all. We get a constant stream of information and our light sensitive receptors have a buildup and decay effect. This is why you can still see the last thing you looked at for a moment when you close your eyes quickly.
I don't know what this video is based on but it's a great example for not taking anything on YouTube as ground truth. For this video, I would ask the creator supply some serious materials backing up the claims being made.
I don't know what this video is based on but it's a great example for not taking anything on YouTube as ground truth. For this video, I would ask the creator supply some serious materials backing up the claims being made.
He's talking about saccadic eye movement, using the slideshow as a metaphor to explain how our eyes discard information during the saccade, which is pretty accurate as far as I know. The phrasing was confusing but I don't think he meant to imply that we see a slideshow all the time, just when our eyes are moving/scanning a scene.
Your view of vision is entirely inaccurate, because the way vision _actually works_ sounds very, very wrong or at least scientifically inaccurate. Your eyes are not cameras and you don’t actually see the light that hits them - your brain constructs its impression of the world, uses the light perceived by your eyes to error correct, and that’s your phenomenological sense of vision. Saccades are real - your brain blocks out input for microseconds and backfills what it thinks you would have seen, manipulating your sense of time, too. Your visual processing takes longer than your auditory processing; synchronous perception too is an illusion your brain pulls to show a coherent world (and is likely part of why optical illusions work - your brain is “projecting” where it thinks the world is a couple microseconds ahead so it matches what you’re hearing). Selective attention is a real thing - check the video someone linked above for a solid example. The peripheral blindness mentioned is real, and occurs for similar reasons to your blind spot (your actual blind spot, the spot in your retinas where your optic nerve passes through your optic dish and you have no photoreceptors, so your brain just.. makes up what should be there).
Vision is not a process by which your camera eyes capture an image and your brain reports it, it is a process where your brain makes a guess about the world and tries to truth check it with external stimuli. It is not a faithful process, and where it renders reality, it does so because it’s expected to be sufficiently advantageous for your survival to be worth the effort.
Vision is not a process by which your camera eyes capture an image and your brain reports it, it is a process where your brain makes a guess about the world and tries to truth check it with external stimuli. It is not a faithful process, and where it renders reality, it does so because it’s expected to be sufficiently advantageous for your survival to be worth the effort.
It seems like he did fine if you take the Youtube comments' word for it:
"As a visual neuroscientist and also a rider, I approve of this message. Very impressive depth of scientific insight into how our vision works, all presented in an easy to understand way." - World-renowned researcher Vladimir Kefalov
https://medschool.uci.edu/news/world-renowned-researcher-vla...
"As a visual neuroscientist and also a rider, I approve of this message. Very impressive depth of scientific insight into how our vision works, all presented in an easy to understand way." - World-renowned researcher Vladimir Kefalov
https://medschool.uci.edu/news/world-renowned-researcher-vla...
But it does. There's a famous experiment, where we display on a screen successive dots (with gaps in between). People see one dot in motion. Now, if half of the dots are red, and the following half are green, and if we ask people to show where the dot change color from red to green, they show the position right in the middle between the last red dot, and the first green dot. This goes to show that brain fills in missing frames, not only in space, but also in time, inventing a time in the past where the color of the dot changed.
The guy did his best to present facts he knows to be true. Your comment comes off as entitled, as if he owes you more. He wasn’t the first person to say what he said in the video, so if you want sources, you can Google it yourself.
> where the brain fills in missing frames.
The optical data rate is much lower than required, the brain makes stuff up almost all the time.
(ChatGPT is just trying to catch up.)
The optical data rate is much lower than required, the brain makes stuff up almost all the time.
(ChatGPT is just trying to catch up.)
Crashing on a private track is one thing, crashing in the city where you can collide with walls, posts, sidewalks, cars (even parked ones), trees ... it's unforgiving even at low speeds.
Pieces of debris lying around can make you go down hard. Brake with a wheel on a piece of cardboard and chances are you'll just slide. Same for an oil slick.
The number of times I've seen shit flying out of or off of cars & trucks (a ladder, a large piece of wood, a rolling tire, a mattress) ... all that will put you in serious harm's way.