Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom (2003)(gutenberg.org)
gutenberg.org
Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom (2003)
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/8086/8086-h/8086-h.htm
61 comments
> I wondered if phone designers ever drew inspiration from Doctorow’s specific books.
I'm sure at least somebody was thinking about that because Doctorow's books are popular, but all that specifically happened is vendors discovered if you tell people that the handheld computer you're selling them is a "phone" they'll buy that, and then of course they actually wanted a handheld computer, so they'll keep buying them even as actually they now realise they don't want to make telephone calls.
Both Android Inc. and the Apple secret project to develop their smartphone pre-date Doctorow's novel. Which doesn't mean he knew about them, but it means he couldn't have inspired these efforts.
The handheld computers aren't specifically doing those things, they can just do whatever, because they're a general purpose computer, and the features you listed are among the popular things to use that for. I guess maybe they needn't have happened to have cameras, but given how cheap that is to do it's not a big surprise.
The Young Lady's Illustrated Primer from Diamond Age is maybe more directly inspirational, various technologies are clearly inspired by the Primer which substantially pre-dates them because it's from a time (the mid-1990s) where many people don't have Internet access.
I'm sure at least somebody was thinking about that because Doctorow's books are popular, but all that specifically happened is vendors discovered if you tell people that the handheld computer you're selling them is a "phone" they'll buy that, and then of course they actually wanted a handheld computer, so they'll keep buying them even as actually they now realise they don't want to make telephone calls.
Both Android Inc. and the Apple secret project to develop their smartphone pre-date Doctorow's novel. Which doesn't mean he knew about them, but it means he couldn't have inspired these efforts.
The handheld computers aren't specifically doing those things, they can just do whatever, because they're a general purpose computer, and the features you listed are among the popular things to use that for. I guess maybe they needn't have happened to have cameras, but given how cheap that is to do it's not a big surprise.
The Young Lady's Illustrated Primer from Diamond Age is maybe more directly inspirational, various technologies are clearly inspired by the Primer which substantially pre-dates them because it's from a time (the mid-1990s) where many people don't have Internet access.
> vendors discovered if you tell people that the handheld computer you're selling them is a "phone" they'll buy that, and then of course they actually wanted a handheld computer, so they'll keep buying them even as actually they now realise they don't want to make telephone calls
So much this.
And we expected tablets to become more popular, but instead phones grew to the max screen size that still allows pocketability.
So much this.
And we expected tablets to become more popular, but instead phones grew to the max screen size that still allows pocketability.
William Gibson has often said the biggest miss he made with Neuromancer was not foreseeing the cell phone. Doctorow surely knew that, and was determined to not make the same mistake. (Plus, of course, Palm devices and Blackberries were around, it wasn't that big a leap to imagine the modern smartphone.)
I find Whuffie as a concept pretty interesting, though not that different from regular wealth. For example, being the daughter of prominent Imagineers did hold a lot of sway in their world, despite the daughter herself not being particularly remarkable.
What I mean to say is, trust-fund kids will still be alive and well in some form in a post dollar world.
What I mean to say is, trust-fund kids will still be alive and well in some form in a post dollar world.
Maybe I'm extending your sentiment-vector too far in its direction (or maybe mistaking its direction entirely!), but are you at the: "So no matter what kind of future we have, there's still no point in trying, because in the end it's not about what you choose, it's about what's given to you?"-Level or a less extreme version of that-Level...?
The latter, as anything is better than what we have now; a semi-meritocracy for STEM and maybe a handful of other professions.
Whuffie seems like it would open up that definition to a wide range of careers and interests (artists for example), but would still suffer from some of the nepotism after the initial uptake of the value system.
I'm also wondering how one could redistribute Whuffie in a charitable kind of way
Whuffie seems like it would open up that definition to a wide range of careers and interests (artists for example), but would still suffer from some of the nepotism after the initial uptake of the value system.
I'm also wondering how one could redistribute Whuffie in a charitable kind of way
I guess you can’t change human weakness, or preference with clever technology.
I don’t think whuffie automatically make things more meritocratic. Maybe it would just go in the other direction where things would be more about what people like socially…so popularity. So if anything it’ll be more political and cliquey.
Regarding your “nepotism”, I think it would just reflect human nature in the sense that even now children of respected parents —say, the child of a respected physicist—is afforded a sort of social standing and goodwill, and kind appraisal, because of how people appreciate their parents. But if the child is bad then that won’t be extended and it won’t save them. Similarly, if the child acts in a way that people see as against the good legacy of their parents, it wouldn’t save them. I don’t think there’s anything wrong looking kindly at the children of people you like. But I don’t think that’s really the kind of nepotism that you’re against, is it? I don’t know tho.
I know there’s other kinds of nepotism based on supposed influence or whatever, which I think is more what you’re talking about here, but I think they may be may be less under that reputation system. The example you cite of the guy’s girlfriend (I think)—a child of prominent Imagineers-I imagine her whuffie accrued simply because she wasn’t all bad and people respected her parents. It wasn’t the pernicious kind that I think you’re so against. So perhaps there’s a distinction you’re interested in considering more then.
Anyway, those collectively form part of what are just the negative side. Which I think would be less commanding and influential than the positive side.
I definitely think there is a positive side of whuffie where if you’re doing good work, which people respect, that isn’t in the current system necessarily remunerative—like in the story, the guy is earning lots of whuffie from being a missionary and helping people out— then you’ll always have more than enough. Where is in the current system you wouldn’t.
And I think that positive benefit far outweighs any amplification of already pre-existing negative human traits.
But of course I haven’t yet lived long enough in this particular version of the future so I could be wrong. Maybe it will turn out to be disaster or maybe we’ll all end up hating it.
But I think it’ll be fun to try, don’t you?
as long as it’s not administered by some centrally controlled government or state, where it could be tied to how compliant you are with not spouting “dangerous misinformation” or whatever the heresy of the day is deemed. Haha
I don’t think whuffie automatically make things more meritocratic. Maybe it would just go in the other direction where things would be more about what people like socially…so popularity. So if anything it’ll be more political and cliquey.
Regarding your “nepotism”, I think it would just reflect human nature in the sense that even now children of respected parents —say, the child of a respected physicist—is afforded a sort of social standing and goodwill, and kind appraisal, because of how people appreciate their parents. But if the child is bad then that won’t be extended and it won’t save them. Similarly, if the child acts in a way that people see as against the good legacy of their parents, it wouldn’t save them. I don’t think there’s anything wrong looking kindly at the children of people you like. But I don’t think that’s really the kind of nepotism that you’re against, is it? I don’t know tho.
I know there’s other kinds of nepotism based on supposed influence or whatever, which I think is more what you’re talking about here, but I think they may be may be less under that reputation system. The example you cite of the guy’s girlfriend (I think)—a child of prominent Imagineers-I imagine her whuffie accrued simply because she wasn’t all bad and people respected her parents. It wasn’t the pernicious kind that I think you’re so against. So perhaps there’s a distinction you’re interested in considering more then.
Anyway, those collectively form part of what are just the negative side. Which I think would be less commanding and influential than the positive side.
I definitely think there is a positive side of whuffie where if you’re doing good work, which people respect, that isn’t in the current system necessarily remunerative—like in the story, the guy is earning lots of whuffie from being a missionary and helping people out— then you’ll always have more than enough. Where is in the current system you wouldn’t.
And I think that positive benefit far outweighs any amplification of already pre-existing negative human traits.
But of course I haven’t yet lived long enough in this particular version of the future so I could be wrong. Maybe it will turn out to be disaster or maybe we’ll all end up hating it.
But I think it’ll be fun to try, don’t you?
as long as it’s not administered by some centrally controlled government or state, where it could be tied to how compliant you are with not spouting “dangerous misinformation” or whatever the heresy of the day is deemed. Haha
Complete agreement on all fronts, though I still wish there better forces for giving children without influential parents the same opportunities as those with (or at least a decent fraction of). Regardless, I blast some Whuffie in your direction, good sir.
Thank you! I will spend it, not all at once, on something wonderful! :)
Minor correction: influential good parents. good is the important thing here otherwise there’s more suffering than opportunities, which only hampers not supports. Not to wish poverty, but there can be goodness and even less suffering in relative poverty. It all comes down to how good people choose to be.
Minor correction: influential good parents. good is the important thing here otherwise there’s more suffering than opportunities, which only hampers not supports. Not to wish poverty, but there can be goodness and even less suffering in relative poverty. It all comes down to how good people choose to be.
I think Doctorow later was more explicit about the downsides of a Whuffie-like reputation systems, IIRC even in one of his fictional works?
One of the early antagonists in Walkaway is a group of reputation economy jerkbags.
> I think how whuffie was described here seems like something that will really exist and I don’t know if there were any sites displaying cumulative karma for people.
The book was written when slashdot.org was really big, it basically invented the "Karma" system. There was this idea of user generated and curated content being a bright happy new future, and DAOITMK basically shot that idea dead by showing all the faults such a system would have. Of course subsequent sites (re: reddit) have exhibited all of those flaws. HN stays reasonable because of the mods, but even so the culture is a lot different here than it was 10 years ago. When I first created an account here short comments almost always got downvoted, posters who didn't have anything substantial learned to stay quiet.
(The downside of that culture is people learned to type intelligent sounding long form fluff!)
The book was written when slashdot.org was really big, it basically invented the "Karma" system. There was this idea of user generated and curated content being a bright happy new future, and DAOITMK basically shot that idea dead by showing all the faults such a system would have. Of course subsequent sites (re: reddit) have exhibited all of those flaws. HN stays reasonable because of the mods, but even so the culture is a lot different here than it was 10 years ago. When I first created an account here short comments almost always got downvoted, posters who didn't have anything substantial learned to stay quiet.
(The downside of that culture is people learned to type intelligent sounding long form fluff!)
"I don’t know if there were any sites displaying cumulative karma for people."
Slashdot did for a long time - though there were caps on it. I used to see if I could get it to the top limit, down to the bottom limit and back to the top in a single day. It wasn't really all that difficult.
Slashdot did for a long time - though there were caps on it. I used to see if I could get it to the top limit, down to the bottom limit and back to the top in a single day. It wasn't really all that difficult.
Did slashdot let you see that stoolpigeon has 776 karma or whatever over the whole profile. I just remember ranking comments within a thread.
And kuro5hin had particular flavors and you could sort in thread but I don’t think you could see if particular flavors summed for a particular person.
And kuro5hin had particular flavors and you could sort in thread but I don’t think you could see if particular flavors summed for a particular person.
Eastern Standard Tribe is a weird one because its predictions turned out to be rather short-term, half of the ideas seem obvious now and half seem foolish
I read this book on an iPod because Doctorow releases the vast majority of his work freely, so I could just upload a text file to my clickwheel. Weird, but awesome.
The book itself is great too. I still think about a lot of the concepts to this day.
The book itself is great too. I still think about a lot of the concepts to this day.
Ha, I had completely forgotten this was a thing I used to do. Thanks for bringing back good memories of scrolling through .txt files. It might sound tedious to those who never tried it, but the Clickwheel was a genuine pleasure to use for so many things. I still miss it to this day.
Obligatory repost of this 2009 gem:
Apple Introduces Revolutionary New Laptop With No Keyboard
https://youtu.be/9BnLbv6QYcA
Apple Introduces Revolutionary New Laptop With No Keyboard
https://youtu.be/9BnLbv6QYcA
My wife and I will still chuckle over that Onion video to this day. I had sent it to her back in the day just to share a laugh, but due to its insanely high production value she bought it hook, line, and sinker.
Her reaction was "Wow, I can't believe they just got rid of the keyboard, this is gonna be huge".
Her reaction was "Wow, I can't believe they just got rid of the keyboard, this is gonna be huge".
Me too! Read a few of his books on a Nano. I had several people ask me about what I was doing with my Nano.
Was a small screen, but workable at the time.
I used iPad note format to read my copy.
Was a small screen, but workable at the time.
I used iPad note format to read my copy.
As far as I know, all of Doctorow's books are on his website for free download anyway.
E.g. here is Content...
https://craphound.com/content/download/
DAOITMK is here:
https://craphound.com/category/down/
E.g. here is Content...
https://craphound.com/content/download/
DAOITMK is here:
https://craphound.com/category/down/
Wow every format imaginable. Even the ebook as gba rom
Apple Newton??
Curious though, is there a way to get it on an iPhone in the built in Books app?
Curious though, is there a way to get it on an iPhone in the built in Books app?
EPUB format, DAOITMK was listed as “for Stanza”.
I think I remember reading a blog post explaining why one was not free, but I can't find it now. There's a reference to it here: https://old.reddit.com/r/printSF/comments/rub7ff/is_corey_do...
I don’t think the newer ones (like Walkaway) are Free like the early ones?
Looks like that could be the case, yes. Maybe his publishers changed their minds. I know he and Charlie Stross had great difficulty getting Charlie's publishers to agree to a free ebook of Rapture of the Nerds.
It looks like there was briefly a giveaway of Walkaway and as a result it's on the Internet Archive, but I've not checked it.
It looks like there was briefly a giveaway of Walkaway and as a result it's on the Internet Archive, but I've not checked it.
Regardless, you can easily find the ebook online which Cory Doctorow won't have any problem with
I don't think they're all there, e.g.
https://craphound.com/category/redteamblues/
https://craphound.com/category/redteamblues/
Don't know. Maybe it's too new?
How cool to see Plucker in that list. Something I started in the 90s.
I read this a while ago. I don't know if it's because I've never been to disney world or know enough about it, but I didn't really "get" the book. Some of the concepts were interesting like dead heading and backing up but not really things I haven't read by other authors of the same decade. Although, maybe some of these ideas stem from this book so not sure. But overall I found it hard to follow, mostly because i didn't understand the importance of the various venues or why the various characters were in that particular location in the first place.
I think the point was more about the kind of social credit system, in that sense it seemed not to be able to decide if it was depicting a utopia or dystopia. But please tell me if I'm way off, interested in hearing what people felt about this book.
I think the point was more about the kind of social credit system, in that sense it seemed not to be able to decide if it was depicting a utopia or dystopia. But please tell me if I'm way off, interested in hearing what people felt about this book.
A lot of it might not make sense if you don't know the Disney parks at all. Doctorow well-known as a Disney nerd, and a lot of Disney fans think The Haunted Mansion is the best of all possible Disney rides. DAOITMK is a (thinly) veiled critique of fandom as an institution and an early (to me at least) preview of the bright and dark sides of fandom.
Interesting, yeah I think that aspect of the novel definitely went over my head.
I read this book on paper many years ago. I only visited Walt Disney World once because the curiosity it caused. Of course I went to the hall of presidents.
The more usual link for Gutenberg is:
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/8086
Which gives you different formats, and links to the author's other works.
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/8086
Which gives you different formats, and links to the author's other works.
I prefer this 'HTML (as submitted)' version. Kind of the canonical "first edition" seems ~~ guess it's how Doctorow sent it to the big G himself? Plus it has the cute little lime green frontispiece, and I love that.
That's why I posted this link not another one.
That's why I posted this link not another one.
I love gutenberg, but how did they allow the reading experience to be so awful. It could be so much more if they were to update the basic template or whatever directions they provide for content submission.
Read this in paperback when it came out. Highly entertaining and highly recommended!
Ah, a rare appearance of the copyrighted Project Gutenberg book. See also their translation of Kafka’s Metamorphosis[1] and the not-awful edition of Verne’s Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea.[2]
[1] https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/5200
[2] https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2488
[1] https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/5200
[2] https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2488
I'm paraphrasing a quote somewhat, but "we didn't have to change their minds; they just died" haunts me 20 years after reading it.
Isn't this from Rapture of the Nerds? IIRC, it was about the debate between one faction that was against mind-uploads, and another one for it. Being functionally immortal, the latter and could "wait out" the former and thus "won" the debate.
That idea floated to the top of my my a couple of times during the COVID crisis when I was feeling misanthropic.
That idea floated to the top of my my a couple of times during the COVID crisis when I was feeling misanthropic.
The same idea was in Down & Out. The Bitchun Society was basically immortal as well, and they didn't need to convince any other civilization factions...merely wait them out.
I, too, thought about this quite a bit when observing the anti-vax movement.
I, too, thought about this quite a bit when observing the anti-vax movement.
Okay so what’s this book about?
I read “about this book” but it just wanted to tell me about copyright and publication details.
I read “about this book” but it just wanted to tell me about copyright and publication details.
It's science fiction about economics, intellectual property, and the value of community.
But that tagline applies to nearly everything Doctorow's written.
But that tagline applies to nearly everything Doctorow's written.
Oh that sounds fun. I’m in.
This and his Walkaway are his best books about alternate economo-political systems. In particular, they deal with the challenges of near or full post-scarcity world.
Really a good study in understanding that just growing till we produce "enough" is not going to solve critical human problems. There will still be serious conflict, and the solutions to those are not economic growth.
Really a good study in understanding that just growing till we produce "enough" is not going to solve critical human problems. There will still be serious conflict, and the solutions to those are not economic growth.
It is reminding me of “Feersum Endjinn”.
And the current season of Adventure time which is set in an alternative future Disneyworld.
And the current season of Adventure time which is set in an alternative future Disneyworld.
Current season? I had a look and there is the new Fiona and Cake series coming at the end of August. But I thought there the last episode before that was in 2021?
Oh I meant Adventure Zone, The
Related (edit: oops - not related! sorry!)
Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom (2011) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20716878 - Aug 2019 (16 comments)
Down and out in the magic kingdom – A tale of software consulting in the midwest - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11595120 - April 2016 (126 comments)
Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom (2011) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20716878 - Aug 2019 (16 comments)
Down and out in the magic kingdom – A tale of software consulting in the midwest - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11595120 - April 2016 (126 comments)
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It was at least the first time I read it.
Also, I think the “comm” described in Eastern Standard Tribe is the first time a smartphone was practically described with functions we had later in the iPhone (payment, maps, pervasive information, camera, image and video sharing). I wondered if phone designers ever drew inspiration from Doctorow’s specific books.