eSIM is altering how consumers interact with operators(opensignal.com)
opensignal.com
eSIM is altering how consumers interact with operators
https://www.opensignal.com/2023/07/25/arrival-of-esim-is-altering-how-consumers-interact-with-operators
198 comments
You've already acknowledged that most of the issues you encountered are specific to your phone or carrier. For example, eSIM works fine with 5G on iPhones and in my experience there is no delay to activate an account. I've set up multiple phones on eSIMs and never experienced something like that.
Regarding backing up, yes it would be nice if you could backup your eSIM alongside the rest of your phone contents, however the real solution is just making it easy to provision a new eSIM.
In my experience, if I need a new eSIM I just open the carrier app and reinstall it to the phone.
Regarding backing up, yes it would be nice if you could backup your eSIM alongside the rest of your phone contents, however the real solution is just making it easy to provision a new eSIM.
In my experience, if I need a new eSIM I just open the carrier app and reinstall it to the phone.
I wasted a couple hours dealing with the fact that my carrier wants an ICCID to activate an eSIM, but iPhone eSIMs don’t have (or at least don’t show) an ICCID until after activation.
My carrier literally has a webpage explaining how to do it on an iPhone, and the page is blatantly wrong. Good job testing.
My carrier literally has a webpage explaining how to do it on an iPhone, and the page is blatantly wrong. Good job testing.
There is an ICCID, that is usually burned into the eSIM. However, SIM and eSIM are actually a tiny embedded system with a rudimentary Java byte code interpreter and you can insert firmware to dynamically swap between the reported ICCID. Usually this is a trick employed by MVNOs to swap between profiles based on the available networks to select the MNO that the MVNO has a more favorable contract with.
Does this ID change if you provision a new eSIM? Would it be worthwhile to activate an eSIM on my phone and write down this ICCID for safe keeping in the future? Is there any other way to get this ID without having an active eSIM?
I think they've got a fair point, though, that a number of those issues with the eSIM reflect reliance on factors outside their control (for example, whether or not one's carrier has competent backend systems) where before swapping a SIM card was a physical action within their control. It's a frustrating feeling when a new technology takes something out of your hands in the name of convenience but, far from being seamless, actually introduces problems that are entirely out of your hands to fix.
The carriers are the problem, though. In many countries there's at most one eSIM carrier, some don't allow it for pay-as-you-go and their implementation is often generally poor.
There's very little a carrier can get wrong with a SIM.
There's very little a carrier can get wrong with a SIM.
For data-only SIMs while traveling, eSIMs are pretty great. I can just download an eSIM from an app and it's ready to go in minutes. Yes, it requires wifi or another working data plan to get started, but that's way easier than having to find a shop that sells physical SIM cards. If I didn't need to keep my phone number, I'd just stick with data only eSIMs. Unfortunately, I need to keep my phone number because a ton of banks and other accounts that I need to do business have required SMS-only 2FA. Recently, I bought a new phone while traveling and Google Fi wouldn't let me activate a new eSIM without returning to the US. If I would break my phone abroad, it would be an absolute nightmare. eSIMs shouldn't have this problem, but they do.
Park your number with a voip firm. You'll get SMS via email. Use local pay-per-use sims wherever you travel. You do not need to maintain a US phone plan to keep a US phone number.
No, park your 2FA number on a 2FA mule[1] and forward the sms anywhere you like.
This solves the “voip number” problem.
[1] https://kozubik.com/items/2famule/
This solves the “voip number” problem.
[1] https://kozubik.com/items/2famule/
> [1] https://kozubik.com/items/2famule/
"Expired: Monday, July 17, 2023 at 13:21:09 Eastern Daylight Saving Time" per Safari.
* https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=kozubik.com
"Expired: Monday, July 17, 2023 at 13:21:09 Eastern Daylight Saving Time" per Safari.
* https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=kozubik.com
Yes but what to do ?
I had a nice acme.sh toolchain and process and then this silliness:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36252310
... all for a simple site that never needed SSL in the first place.
(luckily I only ran acme.sh in a stripped down jail)
I had a nice acme.sh toolchain and process and then this silliness:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36252310
... all for a simple site that never needed SSL in the first place.
(luckily I only ran acme.sh in a stripped down jail)
I foresee way too many risks with this approach to do it myself. I have a phone that I could plug in this way and leave in my apartment. But what happens when I'm abroad and it breaks for some reason, some update or power cycle or unforeseen crash, and then I'm stuck abroad with no way to confirm my identity. Plus it doesn't eliminate the need to pay for a phone plan.
I've had mild success using Any desk to remote control a phone, but that only works for app issues and not random power or reboot issues. you could slightly help that with a smart power strip to power cycle.. but only if you had a phone with no battery that still ran when plugged in. maybe if you even could remove all security so it doesn't require a pin on reboot ... but then you can't trust it for 2fa stuff
It's been 2 years since I read your initial comment on using an SMS mule [1], and I'm curious how's it going, you know, that phone you have plugged in at your office in a corner :)
No battery swelling?
I copied the idea and did the same, it's essentially free of cost to do so where I live, thanks to having operators that offer a pay-what-you-use tier with no fixed monthly cost. The line is just to act as a 2FA mule, so it means it costs nothing (save causing any kind of expense once every 6 months, but sending a single SMS does it, so I guess it actually costs something like 20cts per year)
Apart from the SMS Forwarder app [2] you suggested, an HN commenter [3] provided links to some FOSS alternative which I didn't get to try but should work fine and is ad-free.
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28251107
[2]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.frzinapps....
[3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29711030
No battery swelling?
I copied the idea and did the same, it's essentially free of cost to do so where I live, thanks to having operators that offer a pay-what-you-use tier with no fixed monthly cost. The line is just to act as a 2FA mule, so it means it costs nothing (save causing any kind of expense once every 6 months, but sending a single SMS does it, so I guess it actually costs something like 20cts per year)
Apart from the SMS Forwarder app [2] you suggested, an HN commenter [3] provided links to some FOSS alternative which I didn't get to try but should work fine and is ad-free.
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28251107
[2]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.frzinapps....
[3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29711030
No, no battery swelling.
The only minor hiccup I have had is that at some point the devices decide that enough time has passed that there must be a software update available ... and I ignore the prompts to do so ... which is fine ...
... but then there was a power outage and when they powered back on they were in some update status where they weren't online until I clicked something ? I forget ... might have been an updated google legal agreement with the update ?
They are google pixel devices with stock OS load and no apps added (other than that SMSForwarder) but even still, had some logic for software update that produced a minor annoyance.
The only minor hiccup I have had is that at some point the devices decide that enough time has passed that there must be a software update available ... and I ignore the prompts to do so ... which is fine ...
... but then there was a power outage and when they powered back on they were in some update status where they weren't online until I clicked something ? I forget ... might have been an updated google legal agreement with the update ?
They are google pixel devices with stock OS load and no apps added (other than that SMSForwarder) but even still, had some logic for software update that produced a minor annoyance.
Good to know! Indeed some hiccups are expected. I don't need 2FA mule most of the time, but when I do, mine is an old phone flashed with LineageOS, no Google services at all, only F-Droid and otherwise manually installed apps.
Working well, albeit the Google login tends to give more problems than it should, in smaller and independent apps like these.
But I definitely observed that the one time that I left the phone plugged in for the most part of 3 months, the battery never was the same. It lost like a third of its capacity.
Working well, albeit the Google login tends to give more problems than it should, in smaller and independent apps like these.
But I definitely observed that the one time that I left the phone plugged in for the most part of 3 months, the battery never was the same. It lost like a third of its capacity.
Futhermore, you can then install ACCA and set it to reduce the risks of battery issues.
https://f-droid.org/packages/mattecarra.accapp/
https://f-droid.org/packages/mattecarra.accapp/
That's interesting, thanks.
Have you used it? Do you know if it's only the GUI for ACC (i.e. that ACC must be installed independently), or if it already embeds ACC?
Have you used it? Do you know if it's only the GUI for ACC (i.e. that ACC must be installed independently), or if it already embeds ACC?
Not the parent, but I've used some app from F-Droid to fwd SMS to email. What I didn't thought about is what Samsung SW would aggressivly suffocate the app of any chance to wake up on the receive. Which led for it to be quite useless as a 2FA mule (delay is too long) and it requires a reboot every couple of months. It not that seriuous in ghis case, but if I would be in the need of replicating the setup I would do it with the Moto phone.
I use a 4g device connected via usb with smstools to call a python script that logs the message and sends a push notification.. :D
2fa mule? Kagi isn't finding anything for that term.
It means "to a dumb second phone that you'd use only for 2 factor authentication"
Most MFA implementations will balk as soon as they discover you're on VoIP.
And they will.
And they will.
I was on Google voice for years and occasionally had something refuse to send verification texts to it, but I don't think I've had that problem since I switched to voip.ms
I lost my Google voice number after I eventually couldn’t find a cheap temporary place where I could use a US number to keep alive my Google Voice number.
You can pay $20 to Google to own a number. When we disconnected our landline, I replaced it with a Google Voice number connected to our wireless phone setup. It gets very little use now but is nice for automated calls from the school telling us a kid was late, schools are closed because of snow, etc.
You paid Google? Why'd you pay Google $20? That's $20 more than my number cost me. I mean, other than all the ads, engagement, and PII.
I signed up for my number in 2015, with a landline, because I had just purchased an Android tablet, with no SIM slot or mobile plan, so I decided that teh Goog was the best bet for VoIP for me.
You've got to guard your conversations on Voice, and don't mention forbidden keywords. Voice will instantly disconnect the call if it detects wrongthink.
I signed up for my number in 2015, with a landline, because I had just purchased an Android tablet, with no SIM slot or mobile plan, so I decided that teh Goog was the best bet for VoIP for me.
You've got to guard your conversations on Voice, and don't mention forbidden keywords. Voice will instantly disconnect the call if it detects wrongthink.
I now "own" that number and can port it out of Google if I wanted to. That was important to me in case they ever decide to shut down Google Voice.
I don't see how Google makes money on Google Voice, which makes wary of them shutting it down some day.
I don't see how Google makes money on Google Voice, which makes wary of them shutting it down some day.
Any articles or sources for Voice disconnecting calls? I've never experienced this
Yup, I've got my 2005 phone number on VOIP, but I've got to keep a "normal" number for things like that.
https://xkcd.com/1129/
https://xkcd.com/1129/
Twilio and a lot of other providers for SMS seem to block voip numbers.
Any recommended ones?
Recommend is a strong word since their UI is stuck in the pre-2010s, but voip.ms is cheap and generally good service.
And Acrobits Softphone is a reliable SIP dialer for Android which is very light on battery life.
And Acrobits Softphone is a reliable SIP dialer for Android which is very light on battery life.
> The phone is hardcoded to only support 4G via esim, although the phone itself supports 5G if you use a physical sim on the same mobile network
I suppose it's an operator problem. 5G with eSIM most certainly works on T-Mobile US. I've also had 5G working on AT&T Mexico eSIM when I was in 5G coverage area (very spotty). Can't tell about travel eSIMs (such as Airalo) as I haven't used those in areas with 5G coverage.
> Once provisioned, the mobile network doesn't actually activate your account for a few hours.
Worked nearly instantly for me every time I've tried. Definitely must be a sloppy operator or some error during provisioning.
I suppose it's an operator problem. 5G with eSIM most certainly works on T-Mobile US. I've also had 5G working on AT&T Mexico eSIM when I was in 5G coverage area (very spotty). Can't tell about travel eSIMs (such as Airalo) as I haven't used those in areas with 5G coverage.
> Once provisioned, the mobile network doesn't actually activate your account for a few hours.
Worked nearly instantly for me every time I've tried. Definitely must be a sloppy operator or some error during provisioning.
There's another issue with eSIM: In Canada, all of the carriers offering it charge $10 to provision an eSIM. You get a little plastic card with a QR code on it, and once provisioned, it's totally useless.
Want to switch your phone? $10 and you have to go to the carrier physically.
The iPhone feature where you can transfer an eSIM appears to work with carrier support, and the carriers here I've tried all don't support it so the process fails.
Want to switch your phone? $10 and you have to go to the carrier physically.
The iPhone feature where you can transfer an eSIM appears to work with carrier support, and the carriers here I've tried all don't support it so the process fails.
What is most frustrating about this is that they insist on mailing the QR code card to you after you pay up on the carrier website. (as-in postage, in an envelope, arrives in 5 biz days).
Why not just show me the QR code on my computer right after I pay your fee? It's quite ridiculous.
Why not just show me the QR code on my computer right after I pay your fee? It's quite ridiculous.
That brings back memories of GRE score being mailed after you paid $25 (iirc). How it was only possible via “snail” “no way to track” mail to anywhere in the world. If it didn’t reach, I had to pay again, except in rare scenarios where an one time exception was made. I kept bagging them to email and that I’ll still pay, but nope! Only was to contact ETS was by phone for which I had luckily had a Google Voice number (thank you CallCentric).
Luckily European universities didn’t give much of a fuck about GRE or even TOEFL and just wanted a scan or photo copy if I had it - or a print or screenshot of the page which I could access by logging in. In one university after I was on call with a professor I was told - “no need for TOEFL score, I just talked to you in English and it’s good enough” or something on the lines of it.
The entire process kind of gave me some kind of closer peek into how education is treated differently in Europe, and in USA, and of course in my home country India.
Luckily European universities didn’t give much of a fuck about GRE or even TOEFL and just wanted a scan or photo copy if I had it - or a print or screenshot of the page which I could access by logging in. In one university after I was on call with a professor I was told - “no need for TOEFL score, I just talked to you in English and it’s good enough” or something on the lines of it.
The entire process kind of gave me some kind of closer peek into how education is treated differently in Europe, and in USA, and of course in my home country India.
My kids use e-sims from Orange France on their iPhones in Canada. 365-day great for kids that are always around WiFi, but need data once in a while. I basically pay for 5 gigs and it lasts a year. Roams on Telus, Bell, Rogers on 5G.
I think for 3 kids, I pay about 10% of what I would pay for them to have monthly plans from a Canadian carrier.
I think for 3 kids, I pay about 10% of what I would pay for them to have monthly plans from a Canadian carrier.
I've had similar experiences, although not quite as expensive. I think it was either 3€ or 4€ to get a new eSIM, which you would do by logging to the carrier's website, clicking a button and scanning the resulting QR code PNG. Absolutely nothing about the process warrants that cost and obviously the operator is blocking from using the iPhone-to-iPhone eSIM transfer tool.
I called up my operator before I decided to switch to another operator. Got a whole slew of excuses for it. "Transfers are blocked for security purposes." Didn't figure out a security benefit for the surcharge. "You'd have to pay for a new physical SIM card too", except I wouldn't because physical SIM cards are REUSABLE. Tried to use this line of reasoning against the operator by asking to not order a new eSIM but reuse the eSIM I already had, but no dice.
Thankfully I managed to find a phone plan that was cheaper than the one I had, so I fixed my eSIM issue and got slight savings on top. Of course after I signed the new contract, my existing operator decided to ring me up and butter me up again. At least this time they admitted that it was just pure rent-seeking and they surely could've given me a free eSIM. Too bad my mind had been made at this point.
I called up my operator before I decided to switch to another operator. Got a whole slew of excuses for it. "Transfers are blocked for security purposes." Didn't figure out a security benefit for the surcharge. "You'd have to pay for a new physical SIM card too", except I wouldn't because physical SIM cards are REUSABLE. Tried to use this line of reasoning against the operator by asking to not order a new eSIM but reuse the eSIM I already had, but no dice.
Thankfully I managed to find a phone plan that was cheaper than the one I had, so I fixed my eSIM issue and got slight savings on top. Of course after I signed the new contract, my existing operator decided to ring me up and butter me up again. At least this time they admitted that it was just pure rent-seeking and they surely could've given me a free eSIM. Too bad my mind had been made at this point.
Canadian wireless carriers and ISPs (Robellus[1]) suck tremendously. I'm not surprised that they managed to make eSims suck as well.
[1] http://www.realfairforcanada.ca
[1] http://www.realfairforcanada.ca
It's insane. You can no longer pop your sim into your alternate phone (eg for testing). If you want to, that's $10. Want to switch it back? Another $10.
> In Canada
There’s your problem. Not much to do with esims.
There’s your problem. Not much to do with esims.
No, it has everything to do with eSims. The fact that it is even possible to make the process miserable is proof enough.
No, canadian carriers are exceptionally good at making everything miserable, there is no technical solutions to a business wanting to create problems. If they could not make esims terrible they just wouldn't support esims at all.
Let's go over these one by one:
> Scanning the QR code to install the esim requires internet - it can't activate the sim card to get internet unless it already has internet. Seems like a bit of an oversight!
Not an oversight at all. The key exchange has to happen online, as key material is generated on-device, not delivered in the QR code.
> Once provisioned, the mobile network doesn't actually activate your account for a few hours. Kinda takes away the benefit of 'one click and go'.
That is absolutely your operator's issue; I've been up and running in 60 seconds.
> The phone is hardcoded to only support 4G via esim, although the phone itself supports 5G if you use a physical sim on the same mobile network. Nobody on the forums has managed to make it work.
Which phone is this? I get 5G via eSIM on my Pixel 5, and it works fine on all 5G-capable iPhones too.
> If you damage the phone, there is no way to transfer the esim to a new phone. I assumed it would transfer over automatically as part of backup/restore, either via cable or cloud backup, but no.
Nope; the secret key never leaves the phone. Contact your operator and they send you a new QR, which for me took five minutes and I had the QR in my email inbox.
> The mobile network has no ability to transfer the sim over either. Apparently their software doesn't allow it.
See above.
> The only way is to transfer to a physical sim, wait for it to arrive, then mark the physical sim as lost, and then reorder an esim. Great - that takes 4 days, during which you have no service.
Sounds like you should pick an operator that doesn't suck quite as much.
> Scanning the QR code to install the esim requires internet - it can't activate the sim card to get internet unless it already has internet. Seems like a bit of an oversight!
Not an oversight at all. The key exchange has to happen online, as key material is generated on-device, not delivered in the QR code.
> Once provisioned, the mobile network doesn't actually activate your account for a few hours. Kinda takes away the benefit of 'one click and go'.
That is absolutely your operator's issue; I've been up and running in 60 seconds.
> The phone is hardcoded to only support 4G via esim, although the phone itself supports 5G if you use a physical sim on the same mobile network. Nobody on the forums has managed to make it work.
Which phone is this? I get 5G via eSIM on my Pixel 5, and it works fine on all 5G-capable iPhones too.
> If you damage the phone, there is no way to transfer the esim to a new phone. I assumed it would transfer over automatically as part of backup/restore, either via cable or cloud backup, but no.
Nope; the secret key never leaves the phone. Contact your operator and they send you a new QR, which for me took five minutes and I had the QR in my email inbox.
> The mobile network has no ability to transfer the sim over either. Apparently their software doesn't allow it.
See above.
> The only way is to transfer to a physical sim, wait for it to arrive, then mark the physical sim as lost, and then reorder an esim. Great - that takes 4 days, during which you have no service.
Sounds like you should pick an operator that doesn't suck quite as much.
Physical SIMs can also be and are segregated to a specific network e.g. it’s still possible to buy only 3 or 4G SIMs that are cheaper heck until recently even 2G only SIM packages were a thing.
As far as the other problems go it’s the same with physical SIMs again.
Nearly all physical SIMs today are provisioned OTA so it quite often can take 24-48 hours for your physical SIM to activate especially if you migrate your number between carriers.
The only way to get an “instant” SIM provisioning is to go to a large physical store even the smaller ones are pretty much the same as getting the SIM delivered to your house i.e. they take you through the same phone/internet based activation and provisioning process.
You’re also wrong about the internet requirement the provisioning system for eSIM does not require internet on the device for access the QR code is essentially an authentication code that combined with the IEMI allows you to register with a carrier.
You usually do need an internet connection on another device to get the QR code in the first place but if you can also use a checkout terminal or just get a paper print out of the QR.
As far as the other problems go it’s the same with physical SIMs again.
Nearly all physical SIMs today are provisioned OTA so it quite often can take 24-48 hours for your physical SIM to activate especially if you migrate your number between carriers.
The only way to get an “instant” SIM provisioning is to go to a large physical store even the smaller ones are pretty much the same as getting the SIM delivered to your house i.e. they take you through the same phone/internet based activation and provisioning process.
You’re also wrong about the internet requirement the provisioning system for eSIM does not require internet on the device for access the QR code is essentially an authentication code that combined with the IEMI allows you to register with a carrier.
You usually do need an internet connection on another device to get the QR code in the first place but if you can also use a checkout terminal or just get a paper print out of the QR.
> it quite often can take 24-48 hours for your physical SIM to activate
In my world, I land in an airport, purchase a SIM card and it works before I leave the airport (or the operator’s desk). It’s often that way with eSIMs purchased via Airalo.
The delay could appear when your transferring your number, but even then you can still use a temporary number until the old one overrides it.
In my world, I land in an airport, purchase a SIM card and it works before I leave the airport (or the operator’s desk). It’s often that way with eSIMs purchased via Airalo.
The delay could appear when your transferring your number, but even then you can still use a temporary number until the old one overrides it.
Pre-paid SIMs are different they are usually pre-provisioned or have an expedient path since there is less KYC and other checks that need to be performed.
Also (at least for my iPhone 12 mini), you can only have one esim. I have a SIM for two countries and one of them has to be physical, which is unfortunate.
That sounds like something an overly eager and feared manager pushed through because it sounds nice, you know "eSim" and there was nobody to tell him / her it's a stupid idea or maybe there was, but got shut down.
Many organisations suffer this problem and there is really no good solutions to that.
Many organisations suffer this problem and there is really no good solutions to that.
> The phone is hardcoded to only support 4G (not 5G) via eSIM
Which phones and model(s)? iPhone (X/11/12/13/14)? Google Pixel Pro 6/7? Samsung Galaxy (S20 or upwards)? Huawei? Oppo? Sony? Xiaomi? Other?
Which phones and model(s)? iPhone (X/11/12/13/14)? Google Pixel Pro 6/7? Samsung Galaxy (S20 or upwards)? Huawei? Oppo? Sony? Xiaomi? Other?
My Vodafone eSIM wouldn't work on 5G. After a week of back and forth with customer service they said I was on the wrong plan, please give them more money to get 5G.
this is why apple spent time and effort on an area where most carriers and manufacturers do not. eSIM on iPhone are instantly transferrable, reconnectable, and available on setup of any logged in device.
Esims do not need internet or QR codes. A carrier can just push a sim to you as a notification.
The think I hate most about eSIM is we kept around the idea of SIM locking (EUICC lock, also referred to as "carrier visibility" or "carrier reveal").
I bought a bunch of refurbished/renewed iPads for my business and 7 of them were EUICC locked to AT&T. You could put any physical SIM in the iPad and it would work but it would not let you use a non-AT&T eSIM. AT&T refused to talk to me unless I had an account with them, I did, and then told me those iPads were not in their system, there was nothing they could do, and I should see about returning them and getting new/replacement ones.
I spent multiple hours on the phone and on their support forums and got nowhere (over the span of 2-3+ weeks). Finally I filed an FCC complaint and the issue was fully resolved in 3 days.
FCC/CFPB complaints are great tools to use and I recommend reaching for them sooner rather than later. I have examples of being jerked around by companies for a period of weeks or longer and then the issue being fully resolved in a matter of days after filing a complaint. It's my new "complain on twitter to get better/faster service".
I bought a bunch of refurbished/renewed iPads for my business and 7 of them were EUICC locked to AT&T. You could put any physical SIM in the iPad and it would work but it would not let you use a non-AT&T eSIM. AT&T refused to talk to me unless I had an account with them, I did, and then told me those iPads were not in their system, there was nothing they could do, and I should see about returning them and getting new/replacement ones.
I spent multiple hours on the phone and on their support forums and got nowhere (over the span of 2-3+ weeks). Finally I filed an FCC complaint and the issue was fully resolved in 3 days.
FCC/CFPB complaints are great tools to use and I recommend reaching for them sooner rather than later. I have examples of being jerked around by companies for a period of weeks or longer and then the issue being fully resolved in a matter of days after filing a complaint. It's my new "complain on twitter to get better/faster service".
Do you have details on what kind of complaint you filed?
I have an iPhone with a similar problem -- physical SIMs work with any carrier. However, T-mobile ESIM is the only one I've been able to get work. T-mobile insists the phone has no lock and tells me to go to Apple. Apple tells me to go to T-mobile. End result is I can't activate any ESIMs outside of T-mobile's.
I have an iPhone with a similar problem -- physical SIMs work with any carrier. However, T-mobile ESIM is the only one I've been able to get work. T-mobile insists the phone has no lock and tells me to go to Apple. Apple tells me to go to T-mobile. End result is I can't activate any ESIMs outside of T-mobile's.
Yes, it was a little tricky since there wasn't a clear path. Here is what I did:
1. Go here https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/requests/new?tic...
2. Phone Issues: Availability
3. Phone Availability Sub Issue: No Service Available
4. Your Phone Method: Wireless (cell phone/other mobile device)
The rest of the fields should be self-explanatory. I mentioned EUICC lock in my description and a few days later I got a call from AT&T and then a few days after that it was fixed.
1. Go here https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/requests/new?tic...
2. Phone Issues: Availability
3. Phone Availability Sub Issue: No Service Available
4. Your Phone Method: Wireless (cell phone/other mobile device)
The rest of the fields should be self-explanatory. I mentioned EUICC lock in my description and a few days later I got a call from AT&T and then a few days after that it was fixed.
Thank you - getting this solved would be a massive help as juggling 3-4 physical sims has been quite annoying. Being able to flip them on/off in the phone as described possible would make things so much easier.
Why do you suspect this is T-Mobile's fault? It's equally probable they are the only carrier with an eSIM provisioning system that actually works.
First-hand experience tells me that Verizon has eSIM working, at least for their free trials. "You can participate in Verizon Free Trial with an eSIM-compatible smartphone." (https://www.verizon.com/support/verizon-free-trial-faqs/)
My phone doesn't support the bands necessary for VZ service, but it was worth trying.
My phone doesn't support the bands necessary for VZ service, but it was worth trying.
I was attempting to get Airalo/Ubigi working and have seen many many people talk about how easy it was to get working on their iPhones.
>I spent multiple hours on the phone and on their support forums and got nowhere (over the span of 2-3+ weeks). Finally I filed an FCC complaint and the issue was fully resolved in 3 days.
This costs taxpayer money, to have an enforcement agency to deal with BS like this and have them waste time on these matters.
There should be a huge fine that the company in question (AT&T here) must pay every time something like this happens and it turns out it was their fault. When companies like this cost everyone else time and money, they should be heavily penalized, so they'll fix their broken internal processes.
This costs taxpayer money, to have an enforcement agency to deal with BS like this and have them waste time on these matters.
There should be a huge fine that the company in question (AT&T here) must pay every time something like this happens and it turns out it was their fault. When companies like this cost everyone else time and money, they should be heavily penalized, so they'll fix their broken internal processes.
There is. That’s why you get the love.
The state public service / utility commission is similar with utilities. Verizon let some of their phone infrastructure rot, it fell and was dangling over my yard between a couple of poles. I called them and got all sorts of runaround for days. I filed a complaint and a guy was there in 2 hours assessing the situation and it was fixed by bedtime.
Their newfound responsiveness was because they have a limited number of hours to respond, at which point fines accrue hourly.
The state public service / utility commission is similar with utilities. Verizon let some of their phone infrastructure rot, it fell and was dangling over my yard between a couple of poles. I called them and got all sorts of runaround for days. I filed a complaint and a guy was there in 2 hours assessing the situation and it was fixed by bedtime.
Their newfound responsiveness was because they have a limited number of hours to respond, at which point fines accrue hourly.
That's better than nothing, but I want to see heavy fines just for them having to get a complaint through the public service commission in the first place (plus fines accruing hourly on top of the initial big fine). These companies shouldn't get any kind of grace period; they already have one, in the form of customers being able to contact them and ask them to resolve it before getting the government involved.
That argument is used by utilities to defang the utility commissions!
Big companies only understand pain, but they don’t systematically feel pain unless you’re able to inflict it. Every fine reduces someone’s bonus, so you want the incentive to encourage resolution under pressure - otherwise, if you get fined no matter what, there’s no incentive to act.
Works the same way with services contracts. If you force the provider to price penalties into the P&L as a matter of course, you’ve lost the ability to compel behavior. Companies internally incentivize loss avoidance.
Big companies only understand pain, but they don’t systematically feel pain unless you’re able to inflict it. Every fine reduces someone’s bonus, so you want the incentive to encourage resolution under pressure - otherwise, if you get fined no matter what, there’s no incentive to act.
Works the same way with services contracts. If you force the provider to price penalties into the P&L as a matter of course, you’ve lost the ability to compel behavior. Companies internally incentivize loss avoidance.
This type of perma-locking was only an issue for iPads with Apple SIM as I recall. Not the GSMA eSIM technology that is used in devices now.
I'm not saying you are wrong but these were 9th Gen iPads which say they support eSIM.
The main problem with eSIM is that they are still little HSM modules controlled by the carrier. This results in most of the problems that people are complaining about in this thread.
1. You can't swap the SIM yourself because the HSM is designed not to reveal the secrets.
2. You can't provision offline because the carrier needs to encrypt the payload to the target HSM. In theory I guess if the target phone was known it could be provisioned once and uploaded repeated (for fast eSIM swapping between different SIMs in the same device). But there may also be some form of replay protection.
What I would like to see is that the eSIM is just a config file with connection info and credentials. Then the device itself is in charge of connecting, sharing and whatever else. The user is in control and can transfer or swap as they see fit.
The downside would be that this data is easier to steal if it isn't in a TPM but no one said that you couldn't put it into a TPM. It is just user choice now. For example the keys could be uploaded to the TPM much like today. Or it could be encrypted with a TPM key and stored on the device (this would allow easily changing eSIMs or transferring between devices). You could even do things like escrow a copy to a trusted backup location so that you can restore the eSIM to a new phone if you lose or break the old phone. (Although you may need to revoke the old creds if they are at-risk of being stolen from the old device.)
The carrier should be a dumb pipe. I don't like how much control they have over my hardware.
1. You can't swap the SIM yourself because the HSM is designed not to reveal the secrets.
2. You can't provision offline because the carrier needs to encrypt the payload to the target HSM. In theory I guess if the target phone was known it could be provisioned once and uploaded repeated (for fast eSIM swapping between different SIMs in the same device). But there may also be some form of replay protection.
What I would like to see is that the eSIM is just a config file with connection info and credentials. Then the device itself is in charge of connecting, sharing and whatever else. The user is in control and can transfer or swap as they see fit.
The downside would be that this data is easier to steal if it isn't in a TPM but no one said that you couldn't put it into a TPM. It is just user choice now. For example the keys could be uploaded to the TPM much like today. Or it could be encrypted with a TPM key and stored on the device (this would allow easily changing eSIMs or transferring between devices). You could even do things like escrow a copy to a trusted backup location so that you can restore the eSIM to a new phone if you lose or break the old phone. (Although you may need to revoke the old creds if they are at-risk of being stolen from the old device.)
The carrier should be a dumb pipe. I don't like how much control they have over my hardware.
What does "HSM" stand for?
Hardware Security Module. Basically an embedded device that stores cryptographic keys and performs cryptographic operations (like encrypting/decrypting/signing).
EDIT: HN is throttling me for responding too quickly so I'm responding to the comment below this. eSIM uses UICC hardware, not unlike a cryptographic smartcard (think PIV or OpenPGP smartcards). It's built upon the same kind of cards as physical UICC (SIM) cards are. You have a CPU, some memory, and the ability to store applets usually written in java. Where eSIM/eUICC is different is it is an implementation of downloadable SIM profiles. The standard does allow for, and there are physical removable eSIM's made. The phone controls profiles on them using apdu commands at the low-leve: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card_application_protoco... . Check my prior comments on the matter.
EDIT: HN is throttling me for responding too quickly so I'm responding to the comment below this. eSIM uses UICC hardware, not unlike a cryptographic smartcard (think PIV or OpenPGP smartcards). It's built upon the same kind of cards as physical UICC (SIM) cards are. You have a CPU, some memory, and the ability to store applets usually written in java. Where eSIM/eUICC is different is it is an implementation of downloadable SIM profiles. The standard does allow for, and there are physical removable eSIM's made. The phone controls profiles on them using apdu commands at the low-leve: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card_application_protoco... . Check my prior comments on the matter.
I was asking the GP kevincox, but anyway:
What kind of physical hardware is an eSIM composed of?
What kind of physical hardware is an eSIM composed of?
A small, purpose built chip. The GSM Association refers to it variously depending on audience. For example on their landing page for eSIMs they refer to it as a Secure Element: https://www.gsma.com/esim/
You can get from that page to their technical standards which go into much more detail about hardware for eSIMs.
STMicro makes Arm based ones: https://www.st.com/en/secure-mcus/st4sim-201m.html
You can get from that page to their technical standards which go into much more detail about hardware for eSIMs.
STMicro makes Arm based ones: https://www.st.com/en/secure-mcus/st4sim-201m.html
Show HN: My eSIM runs DOOM at 30FPS
Ask HN: Installed DOOM on my employer's FIPS-certified HSM; why won't it run?
Ask HN: Installed DOOM on my employer's FIPS-certified HSM; why won't it run?
[deleted]
Look, seriously, you didn't answer the question. An eSIM consists of software. To say that eSIM is UICC is like saying that KDE is a Lenovo ThinkPad.
eSIMs are not HSMs and the GP shouldn't be muddying the waters. SIM cards aren't HSMs. They run apps! Smart Cards aren't HSMs. They have cryptographic functions, but they aren't HSMs!
An HSM is a very specific, physical hardware-based cryptographic device. You'll know it when you see it, and they're designed, labeled, and sold as HSMs with a price to match. No mobile provider is going to let you download no HSM for no $40. Crazy talk.
eSIMs are not HSMs and the GP shouldn't be muddying the waters. SIM cards aren't HSMs. They run apps! Smart Cards aren't HSMs. They have cryptographic functions, but they aren't HSMs!
An HSM is a very specific, physical hardware-based cryptographic device. You'll know it when you see it, and they're designed, labeled, and sold as HSMs with a price to match. No mobile provider is going to let you download no HSM for no $40. Crazy talk.
SIM cards can function like HSMs. Even in the niche security product market, the difference between a $20000 HSM and a $1000 HSM is that the former is filled with epoxy.
My ThinkPad is an IBM mainframe! Look, it adds two numbers together!
[deleted]
Meanwhile, small/private operators can't even leverage eSIM. We're trying to run a CBRS-based LTE deployment in-house and can't find a single company willing to work with us to get eSIM provisioning capabilities because we can't just make eSIMs like we can physical ones -- thanks to eSIM's fairly obtuse cryptogatekeeping by the GSMA, we can't do anything without their blessings.
Every single company that we've found that claims to do small-scale eSIM personalization/SM-DP/etc services just... won't answer our sales forms. Monogoto, Teal, Globalgig, Smartjac... nobody.
EDIT: To note, of course, if we were willing to spend tens of thousands directly with a manufacturer or company that actually does this stuff for a living (selling the whole core/radios/etc) I'm sure they'd bend over backwards, but we know how to deploy open5gs and buy eNodeBs that work in our system and deploy them as-is (up to and including abusing former Pollen Mobile gear) -- we already have a dozen or so devices on via physical SIM in our office.
Every single company that we've found that claims to do small-scale eSIM personalization/SM-DP/etc services just... won't answer our sales forms. Monogoto, Teal, Globalgig, Smartjac... nobody.
EDIT: To note, of course, if we were willing to spend tens of thousands directly with a manufacturer or company that actually does this stuff for a living (selling the whole core/radios/etc) I'm sure they'd bend over backwards, but we know how to deploy open5gs and buy eNodeBs that work in our system and deploy them as-is (up to and including abusing former Pollen Mobile gear) -- we already have a dozen or so devices on via physical SIM in our office.
Kotakat!! I attempted to ping you on discord but it wouldn't let me. I found your discord posts super helpful with Pollen gear! Thank you for that. I might be able to help with esims, asking someone right now. Are you doing data only? or ims too?
As a digital nomad + business traveler, eSims are total misdirection and more cumbersome experience:
Case in point - I stay in Country A (home country) for 3 months, Country B for 2 months, and then C for 3 months, back to A. Until now I used an Android with Dual-SIM (physical) and all I had to do was: put in physical-SIM whenever I am in and call it a day. With iPhone and more and more phone manufacturers praising about eSIMs, not anymore.
Country B/C/D etc may have extremely complex or underwhelming infrastructure/process to support e-SIMs. Lots of issues with “network reception not working” to troubleshooting the signup process. Heck, there are additional charges in some countries for eSIM vs. physical sim.
Case in point - I stay in Country A (home country) for 3 months, Country B for 2 months, and then C for 3 months, back to A. Until now I used an Android with Dual-SIM (physical) and all I had to do was: put in physical-SIM whenever I am in and call it a day. With iPhone and more and more phone manufacturers praising about eSIMs, not anymore.
Country B/C/D etc may have extremely complex or underwhelming infrastructure/process to support e-SIMs. Lots of issues with “network reception not working” to troubleshooting the signup process. Heck, there are additional charges in some countries for eSIM vs. physical sim.
Last time I traveled to a EU country from the US I tried an travel esim service. For a single sample of an unlocked iPhone and and Airalo app it worked flawlessly. Not affiliated with the app, but I may use it again and am curious about different experiences.
I bought the esim about a week ahead and installed it and the validity period auto activiated when I turned on the profile in reach of a valid network.
I bought the esim about a week ahead and installed it and the validity period auto activiated when I turned on the profile in reach of a valid network.
Is your complaint that activation is troublesome and bureaucratic? Isn't that also true with physical SIMs?
With eSIM, you should be able to just have all three eSIMs stored on the phone, marking the one you want to use as active, and switching whenever you want, with no need to carry around physical bits of plastic any more.
This has been my experience with my iPhone 13 when traveling.
With eSIM, you should be able to just have all three eSIMs stored on the phone, marking the one you want to use as active, and switching whenever you want, with no need to carry around physical bits of plastic any more.
This has been my experience with my iPhone 13 when traveling.
> Is your complaint that activation is troublesome and bureaucratic? Isn't that also true with physical SIMs?
No? Normally SIM card activated by carrier before sending to you, like a cable/satellite card would be. It just works when you put it in devices, can be swapped around between devices without a secondary internet connection. Same if you buy prepaid sim at a store, many countries you can just buy and activate at checkout, then put in phone, no carrier helper apps needed.
> With eSIM, you should be bale to just have all three eSims stored on the phone, marking the one you want to use as active, and switching whenever you want, with no need to carry around physical bits of plastic any more.
If wanting to change devices you need an internet connection and hope activation app/site isn't down, call on the phone to manually transfer (which requires a working phone service), or go into a store. Many carriers will not activate eSIM devices they don't recognize the IMEI of. The situation is only fairly seamless currently with iPhone in the US, most international carriers don't support the automatic iPhone transfer stuff. It's kind of a mess everywhere else on Android.
No? Normally SIM card activated by carrier before sending to you, like a cable/satellite card would be. It just works when you put it in devices, can be swapped around between devices without a secondary internet connection. Same if you buy prepaid sim at a store, many countries you can just buy and activate at checkout, then put in phone, no carrier helper apps needed.
> With eSIM, you should be bale to just have all three eSims stored on the phone, marking the one you want to use as active, and switching whenever you want, with no need to carry around physical bits of plastic any more.
If wanting to change devices you need an internet connection and hope activation app/site isn't down, call on the phone to manually transfer (which requires a working phone service), or go into a store. Many carriers will not activate eSIM devices they don't recognize the IMEI of. The situation is only fairly seamless currently with iPhone in the US, most international carriers don't support the automatic iPhone transfer stuff. It's kind of a mess everywhere else on Android.
FWIW, my experience with eSIMs has been identical to my experience receiving physical SIMs. Instead of inserting it, I scanned a QR code. It then activated much as any physical SIM activates the first time you put it in a phone.
People are complaining so much that I guess maybe I've had just good luck with carriers?
Fair point on changing devices. I've never tried that and I imagine you might have to get the carrier to issue a new eSIM, which is might be an annoying ordeal. It's _meant_ to be possible to do it easily (see e.g. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780 - but that does say it works only for "some carriers").
People are complaining so much that I guess maybe I've had just good luck with carriers?
Fair point on changing devices. I've never tried that and I imagine you might have to get the carrier to issue a new eSIM, which is might be an annoying ordeal. It's _meant_ to be possible to do it easily (see e.g. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780 - but that does say it works only for "some carriers").
> Instead of inserting it, I scanned a QR code.
Which you need an internet connection for. A SIM you do not.
> People are complaining so much that I guess maybe I've had just good luck with carriers?
Apple really put a lot of thought into making the process as seamless as possible if the carrier builds into their system. Credit where credit is due, but everywhere else is a fragmented mess (not unlike how bad the voLTE situation has been with inconsistent phone/carrier support).
Apple's physical to esim transfer process is great (as well as phone to phone transfer) if the carrier supports it, but now how do you go about moving esim to an android phone if you like swapping around? Good luck navigating carrier apps/site/phone/store/etc...
Which you need an internet connection for. A SIM you do not.
> People are complaining so much that I guess maybe I've had just good luck with carriers?
Apple really put a lot of thought into making the process as seamless as possible if the carrier builds into their system. Credit where credit is due, but everywhere else is a fragmented mess (not unlike how bad the voLTE situation has been with inconsistent phone/carrier support).
Apple's physical to esim transfer process is great (as well as phone to phone transfer) if the carrier supports it, but now how do you go about moving esim to an android phone if you like swapping around? Good luck navigating carrier apps/site/phone/store/etc...
Giving you real example of buying SIM card in 3 countries (Thailand, Vietnam, Russia) within last 6 months:
You step into the shop/kiosk at the airport (or in the city, however you prefer). They ask you to choose any SIM with desired numbers, plans are clearly well-written, take xerox of your passport (or click a snap of it), and plug the SIM in, pay money, reboot phone, and that's it. It did not take me more than 10 minutes in any scenario.
In all cases, it is cheaper (than using Airalo - and why are we promoting one app anyway!)and less hassle-free than buying eSIM.
You step into the shop/kiosk at the airport (or in the city, however you prefer). They ask you to choose any SIM with desired numbers, plans are clearly well-written, take xerox of your passport (or click a snap of it), and plug the SIM in, pay money, reboot phone, and that's it. It did not take me more than 10 minutes in any scenario.
In all cases, it is cheaper (than using Airalo - and why are we promoting one app anyway!)and less hassle-free than buying eSIM.
Unfortunately it gets worse in other countries such as Mexico.
Most carriers will only provision a eSIM if you are on a contract through them. So lets say you are traveling for US to Mexico with an iPhone 14 (no physical sim) you are SOL. Extremely frustrating.
Only good news is once those contracts are up the used market I hope will force a change in this behavior.
Most carriers will only provision a eSIM if you are on a contract through them. So lets say you are traveling for US to Mexico with an iPhone 14 (no physical sim) you are SOL. Extremely frustrating.
Only good news is once those contracts are up the used market I hope will force a change in this behavior.
I don't understand the enthusiasm about esims. Is the US cell phone market more predatory than i thought?
Around here, as long as the phone isn't locked to a carrier [1], you just swap the physical sim and have new service.
With the esim you suddenly need the phone manufacturer's approval. Perhaps masked as a software incompatibility.
Swaps take hours to days.
What is the advantage to the customer here?
[1] And carriers are required to unlock your phone for a nominal fee when the contract period ends.
Around here, as long as the phone isn't locked to a carrier [1], you just swap the physical sim and have new service.
With the esim you suddenly need the phone manufacturer's approval. Perhaps masked as a software incompatibility.
Swaps take hours to days.
What is the advantage to the customer here?
[1] And carriers are required to unlock your phone for a nominal fee when the contract period ends.
For travel, it’s great. When I went to Germany four years ago, getting data on my phone without paying an exorbitant roaming fee involved waiting until I got to Germany, buying a SIM card at a train station, then finding WiFi access so I could complete the registration process, which involved a video call with a Deutsche Post agent to verify my passport for some reason. The last time I went a few months ago, I bought an eSIM before I left, and it activated automatically as soon as I landed in Europe.
Granted, I think a large factor in the hassle the previous time was due to German regulations involved in getting a phone number, but since I didn’t want or need a German phone number it was just unnecessary hoops to jump through. Now I can buy an eSIM from any number of countries that is valid throughout the EU with way less hassle, and I can get service from whatever provider I like rather than having to depend on whichever SIM card I happen to find at the local shop.
I’ve also never had an eSIM swap take hours to days—they’ve always been effectively instant for me. When my phone was damaged and I couldn’t get the eSIM transferred to a temporary phone while I got it repaired, I was surprised by how easy it was to generate a new eSIM online. If I had lost my phone, and I had a spare phone to use, getting service transferred with an eSIM would be a matter of minutes, rather than hours or days to get a replacement physical SIM.
Granted, I think a large factor in the hassle the previous time was due to German regulations involved in getting a phone number, but since I didn’t want or need a German phone number it was just unnecessary hoops to jump through. Now I can buy an eSIM from any number of countries that is valid throughout the EU with way less hassle, and I can get service from whatever provider I like rather than having to depend on whichever SIM card I happen to find at the local shop.
I’ve also never had an eSIM swap take hours to days—they’ve always been effectively instant for me. When my phone was damaged and I couldn’t get the eSIM transferred to a temporary phone while I got it repaired, I was surprised by how easy it was to generate a new eSIM online. If I had lost my phone, and I had a spare phone to use, getting service transferred with an eSIM would be a matter of minutes, rather than hours or days to get a replacement physical SIM.
Last time I went to Germany (2015), T-Mobile had run out of physical SIM cards. We queued up at Vodafone for half an hour. By this point, the store was closing. The employee gave us a SIM but didn't activate the plan correctly. So our €10 was all used up with hours instead of being good for a month. And we had to go back in the next day to sort out it.
eSIMs, EU roaming regulations, and carriers like Google Fi have all improved the situation markedly. Though dealing with Vodafone has not.
eSIMs, EU roaming regulations, and carriers like Google Fi have all improved the situation markedly. Though dealing with Vodafone has not.
I recently traveled to Poland. Instead of paying T-Mobile like $50 for limited data and minutes, I bought Orange prepaid plan.
I did not have to visit a physical store and it cost me about $5.
I landed. Opened the app. Got the esim and was on my way. I then could alternate between sims easily.
I imagine if I had to travel between other continents same steps would apply. Cell service is quite expensive in the US.
I did not have to visit a physical store and it cost me about $5.
I landed. Opened the app. Got the esim and was on my way. I then could alternate between sims easily.
I imagine if I had to travel between other continents same steps would apply. Cell service is quite expensive in the US.
... you could have picked a sim at the airport couldn't you?
I have to point out that my question still stands. The only ones speaking in favour of esims seem to be USers traveling abroad.
I have to point out that my question still stands. The only ones speaking in favour of esims seem to be USers traveling abroad.
But it is a bit silly if I can just download an app. No need to search for a store in airport one might be unfamiliar with.
> What is the advantage to the customer here?
I currently have 5 eSIMs installed on my phone and I can switch at anytime without having to find/carry the SIM cards.
Also in theory if I lose my phone I can just download them again. In practice this might not be as smooth though.
If you change phone more often than you change SIM, you’re right that eSIMs provide zero advantage to you.
I currently have 5 eSIMs installed on my phone and I can switch at anytime without having to find/carry the SIM cards.
Also in theory if I lose my phone I can just download them again. In practice this might not be as smooth though.
If you change phone more often than you change SIM, you’re right that eSIMs provide zero advantage to you.
> you just swap the physical sim and have new service.
If I'm traveling, I don't really want to have to manage my physical SIM while it's outside the phone. With eSIM and a service like Airalo, I can use the airport wifi to get data on my phone (or do it ahead of time), not have to pull my current SIM out of my phone, and the price is really low too. I use it every time I travel to Europe.
It's true the time delay is a little bit annoying but it seems to me the tradeoff is "preserve physical SIM" vs "wait 10min-2h". Pretty fair trade, no?
If I'm traveling, I don't really want to have to manage my physical SIM while it's outside the phone. With eSIM and a service like Airalo, I can use the airport wifi to get data on my phone (or do it ahead of time), not have to pull my current SIM out of my phone, and the price is really low too. I use it every time I travel to Europe.
It's true the time delay is a little bit annoying but it seems to me the tradeoff is "preserve physical SIM" vs "wait 10min-2h". Pretty fair trade, no?
What do you mean by "you suddenly need the phone manufacturer's approval"?
I have not experienced this and I've now used a few different eSims on my iPhone.
[edit: at home in the USA and when traveling internationally]
[edit 2: people are downvoting this, but it's a genuine question!]
I have not experienced this and I've now used a few different eSims on my iPhone.
[edit: at home in the USA and when traveling internationally]
[edit 2: people are downvoting this, but it's a genuine question!]
> What do you mean by "you suddenly need the phone manufacturer's approval"?
Are all esims supported by your phone? Even if it's theoretically a standard.
Are all esims supported by your phone? Even if it's theoretically a standard.
No carrier in the US charges for an unlock. So long as a device is paid off in full, all 3 carriers will unlock devices for free.
This is misleading. Carriers can impose restrictions on paid off phones like being subscribed to them for x months. My phone unlocked after 6 months.
It is only free and instant if you are in the military.
It is only free and instant if you are in the military.
Well yeah. The carrier's job is not to sell devices. It's to sell the services that they provide. If you don't want that, you have to buy unlocked from the manufacturer and finance another way.
I wouldn't call it misleading at all. The terms are laid out that you have to subscribe. Carriers won't sell you a phone outright in their stores without it being activated on a new account. Believe me I've asked.
I wouldn't call it misleading at all. The terms are laid out that you have to subscribe. Carriers won't sell you a phone outright in their stores without it being activated on a new account. Believe me I've asked.
Aren't there more than 3 carriers?
Then why are Verizon Pixels unusable with other carriers?
Where'd you hear that?
Verizon Pixels have issues with BOOTLOADER unlocks. Not carrier unlocks. In fact, Verizon is legally obligated to unlock their devices even regardless of installment plan financing due to rules the FCC has in place on their wireless spectrum.
Verizon Pixels have issues with BOOTLOADER unlocks. Not carrier unlocks. In fact, Verizon is legally obligated to unlock their devices even regardless of installment plan financing due to rules the FCC has in place on their wireless spectrum.
To me the advantage of eSIM is coupled with dual SIMs, something that wasn't very common in the US until the arrival of eSIM. Now when traveling I can purchase an eSIM instead of pay my operator a ton of roaming fees. But I can still keep my main SIM active, just with data disabled.
It's not that any of this was impossible without eSIMs but it's created a new market of online-only SIM sellers. Before eSIMs I'd have to be without data when I first arrived somewhere new while I buy a local PAYG SIM. Don't have to worry about that any more.
> What is the advantage to the customer here?
Outside of dual SIM applications I don't think it's a whole lot more complicated than online retail being considerably more convenient than in-person. When switching providers you often have to time it correctly: make sure the plan is expiring on your old SIM when you put in the new one. Having a SIM arrive instantly makes that a lot easier. Plus it's just a lot easier to make a spontaneous purchase.
It's not that any of this was impossible without eSIMs but it's created a new market of online-only SIM sellers. Before eSIMs I'd have to be without data when I first arrived somewhere new while I buy a local PAYG SIM. Don't have to worry about that any more.
> What is the advantage to the customer here?
Outside of dual SIM applications I don't think it's a whole lot more complicated than online retail being considerably more convenient than in-person. When switching providers you often have to time it correctly: make sure the plan is expiring on your old SIM when you put in the new one. Having a SIM arrive instantly makes that a lot easier. Plus it's just a lot easier to make a spontaneous purchase.
What if I go abroad for a few days and need a temporary SIM from there, but my phone only supports eSIM?
With eSIM there's a tighter coupling between the phone and carrier. Not sure if I like that.
> Apple’s move to make eSIM the only option for iPhone 14 range in the U.S. is propelling the worldwide shift towards eSIM technology.
Speaking of which, I know for a fact that the iPhone 14 sold in India has a SIM card slot (eSIM also supported).
With eSIM there's a tighter coupling between the phone and carrier. Not sure if I like that.
> Apple’s move to make eSIM the only option for iPhone 14 range in the U.S. is propelling the worldwide shift towards eSIM technology.
Speaking of which, I know for a fact that the iPhone 14 sold in India has a SIM card slot (eSIM also supported).
Just got back from 2 separate trips to Europe with an iPhone 14 pro (eSIM only US model). The first trip I landed in Germany, remembered I needed a phone plan when I landed, and got a 1 month unlimited plan on DT using the airport Wi-Fi and was good to go. For the 2nd trip to France I downloaded a short traveler plan eSIM to my phone before leaving and activated when I got off the plane.
In both cases it was easier than dealing with physical SIMs. Also there was no concern about how many slots the phone had, it can even store extra non-active eSIMs on top of having your two active ones.
In both cases it was easier than dealing with physical SIMs. Also there was no concern about how many slots the phone had, it can even store extra non-active eSIMs on top of having your two active ones.
There are companies (won’t endorse any in particular) that will let you buy data eSIMs for virtually any country. They can be downloaded before you leave or using airport WiFi, and usually activate automatically when you arrive.
I’ll endorse one - been using Airalo for a few years, works great. I prefer using that app to finding someone at the airport to buy a SIM card from.
It’s very expensive though, compared to a local SIM. It’s not really a replacement for local SIMs, it’s more like a good international roaming plan from your home country, more convenience at a higher cost.
I’ve always assumed this, too. I am currently in Andorra and the biggest prepaid plan from Andorra Telecom (the only mobile operator) is 19€ for 3gb of data (and 60 minutes of talk, which I don’t need). It was simple to get using their website and an eSIM.
Just checked Airalo and they have 3gb for $10.50 usd! That’s like 9.50€ or something and Airalo always seems to have a 15% off coupon (maybe first order only?). They also have larger plans. I am going to switch over as soon as I run out of data on my Andorra Telecom plan.
Just checked Airalo and they have 3gb for $10.50 usd! That’s like 9.50€ or something and Airalo always seems to have a 15% off coupon (maybe first order only?). They also have larger plans. I am going to switch over as soon as I run out of data on my Andorra Telecom plan.
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Airalo is $5 for Europe for a week. I can’t imagine any savings over that that would outweigh the convenience…
The $5 plan only gets you 1GB of data. I usually get through much more than that while travelling.
Last time I was in the UK ended up walking into a Vodafone shop and got a physical SIM and 30 day 20GB pay as you go plan for £10. That would cost $74 on Airalo.
I'm looking forward to eSIM being more widely supported as its definitely more convenient. In the last year most US carriers have started offering it on their PAYG plans.
Last time I was in the UK ended up walking into a Vodafone shop and got a physical SIM and 30 day 20GB pay as you go plan for £10. That would cost $74 on Airalo.
I'm looking forward to eSIM being more widely supported as its definitely more convenient. In the last year most US carriers have started offering it on their PAYG plans.
If you are a tourist for a few days then I understand completely not wanting to waste time looking for a local SIM.
On the other hand, if you are a regular visitor to a country, or you are meeting a local who can hook you up, or you are staying for a while, then it may be worth getting a local SIM. Some countries make it easy, others make it difficult. In UK for example it’s very easy to get a SIM and the local prices are about half of Airalo (which doesn’t seem to offer an unlimited data plan).
On the other hand, if you are a regular visitor to a country, or you are meeting a local who can hook you up, or you are staying for a while, then it may be worth getting a local SIM. Some countries make it easy, others make it difficult. In UK for example it’s very easy to get a SIM and the local prices are about half of Airalo (which doesn’t seem to offer an unlimited data plan).
Its all relative — I paid $10 for a month in Germany as a resident (comes with full EU roaming). Prices in other EU countries are even cheaper. It took 1 minute to plug it in.
Also, travelers from Western countries might not really be ecstatic about paying for paying $$ for something that comes with zero upside to physical SIM.
Also, travelers from Western countries might not really be ecstatic about paying for paying $$ for something that comes with zero upside to physical SIM.
People pay more for digital media than physical media in other contexts for the convenience. I'm not going to buy a DVD on amazon to save a few dollars.
It's subjective, I'm sure there's still people buying DVDs, but you can't say that there's "zero upside"
It's subjective, I'm sure there's still people buying DVDs, but you can't say that there's "zero upside"
If you want a lot of data arialo is not really competitive.
I’ll endorse Airalo, they’re amazing. I use them religiously for temp eSIMs while traveling. Would never go back to physical sims.
I tried them when I visited the US. It did not work for me at all and I needed to rely on wifi instead.
Recommend T-mobile prepaid pass when you're in the states.
I went to Japan and used Ubigi, which has service basically anywhere, to add dual-SIM and have data. I also used Airalo. Both worked great with e-SIM, and it was painless to get data activated and working. There was also a large variety of plans to choose from. I really liked the whole experience!
> With eSIM there's a tighter coupling between the phone and carrier. Not sure if I like that.
I'm not sure what you mean? Carriers already have the ability to lock a phone to their network, regardless of eSIM or not.
I'm not sure what you mean? Carriers already have the ability to lock a phone to their network, regardless of eSIM or not.
No they don't? They can lock it if they sold it to you, but they can't lock arbitrary devices.
Yes they literally can lock any device you plug their SIM into, if they want to. They used to, but it's uncommon now.
They do that to a device that I own without providing the service for free for the entire period, then they're getting sued. They have absolutely no right to claim ownership over my fully paid device.
And they typically don’t these days but there’s no technological prohibition and it was common a decade ago.
how do eSIMs enable locking arbitrary devices to a network?
The iPhone 14 sold in China has dual physical SIMs and no eSIM support.
Interesting, maybe a paranoid in the dictatorship realised eSIM support would mean it'd be much much easier for someone to get a foreign SIM (just get a QR code delivered) and bypass the great firewall.
Sorry to be the (usual) pessimist, but with a physical SIM, if your phone breaks, you can take the SIM and put in another phone (a spare one, a borrowed one), with the eSIM, this becomes complex or impossible:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32138466
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32138466
Having done exactly that, I can tell you that your information is not accurate. The damaged iPhone was completely unusable, and I had no trouble transferring the eSIM to an older spare iPhone. There was no need to touch any approval message on my old phone.
Maybe the procedure has changed, or has changed in some cases, definitely the Apple support page text I quoted was changed, still:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780
>3. Check for instructions on your previous iPhone to confirm the transfer. To confirm, tap Transfer or, if asked for a verification code, enter the code that's displayed on your new iPhone.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780
>3. Check for instructions on your previous iPhone to confirm the transfer. To confirm, tap Transfer or, if asked for a verification code, enter the code that's displayed on your new iPhone.
You're looking at the section titled “Use eSIM Quick Transfer on iPhone”, which explicitly states “Some carriers support SIM transfers from your previous iPhone to your new iPhone without needing to contact them.”
So this doesn't apply in the case where you contact the carrier to transfer the eSIM. Which you'd have to do if your SIM card were damaged or lost anyway…
So this doesn't apply in the case where you contact the carrier to transfer the eSIM. Which you'd have to do if your SIM card were damaged or lost anyway…
Maybe there is some misunderstanding.
The hypothetical case is the following:
1) Your smartphone fell and the screen broke (or some other problem).
2) You have another smartphone (an old one or a spare).
In this case the phone is broken but the SIM is just fine.
With the old physical SIM you take it out of the old phone and you put it in the spare phone (no need whatsoever to contact anyone, not the phone manufacturer, nor your ISP, nor any website), both the old phone and the spare one can be any phone model (as long as they both use the same format of physical SIM).
With the new eSIM there is a procedure that needs that BOTH the old phone and new phone are working AND/OR you need to contact the ISP, the phone manufacturer or anyway you need to have an internet connection, additionally it seems that for some easier procedure both phones need to be running iOS 16 or above or however be connectable to iCloud.
This is more complex, and in some cases (connection to internet not available because you are alone in the woods or whatever and don't have a third device) impossible.
BTW this is not "my" information, is what I could find on the official support page of the manufacturer, maybe it is inaccurate or I am failing to understand what it says.
The hypothetical case is the following:
1) Your smartphone fell and the screen broke (or some other problem).
2) You have another smartphone (an old one or a spare).
In this case the phone is broken but the SIM is just fine.
With the old physical SIM you take it out of the old phone and you put it in the spare phone (no need whatsoever to contact anyone, not the phone manufacturer, nor your ISP, nor any website), both the old phone and the spare one can be any phone model (as long as they both use the same format of physical SIM).
With the new eSIM there is a procedure that needs that BOTH the old phone and new phone are working AND/OR you need to contact the ISP, the phone manufacturer or anyway you need to have an internet connection, additionally it seems that for some easier procedure both phones need to be running iOS 16 or above or however be connectable to iCloud.
This is more complex, and in some cases (connection to internet not available because you are alone in the woods or whatever and don't have a third device) impossible.
BTW this is not "my" information, is what I could find on the official support page of the manufacturer, maybe it is inaccurate or I am failing to understand what it says.
With Vodafone UK, you just scan the same QR code they originally sent you.
Might be different for different carriers.
Might be different for different carriers.
Yes, very likely carriers (and phone manufacturers) are in the process of making the transfer easier, but it remains more complex than a physical SIM.
I wonder how the "same QR code" might work, I mean, let's say you have your e-sim on your phone, and someone steals the original QR code, if all is needed is to scan it, then the thief could "install" your e-sim to another phone, there must be something else in the procedure to guarantee the de-activation on your phone and allow the transfer, the point is if it is doable with the old phone not functioning.
I wonder how the "same QR code" might work, I mean, let's say you have your e-sim on your phone, and someone steals the original QR code, if all is needed is to scan it, then the thief could "install" your e-sim to another phone, there must be something else in the procedure to guarantee the de-activation on your phone and allow the transfer, the point is if it is doable with the old phone not functioning.
One interesting thing that eSIMs enable is geographical arbitrage by the carriers.
When I was visiting South Korea last year, the (cheap enough) eSIM I got from one of those "buy sims for your travel!" services was actually from a carrier from Hong Kong.
Similarly, when I visited Japan this year, the eSIM I got was from a South Korean carrier.
Can't do that if you need a physical SIM!
When I was visiting South Korea last year, the (cheap enough) eSIM I got from one of those "buy sims for your travel!" services was actually from a carrier from Hong Kong.
Similarly, when I visited Japan this year, the eSIM I got was from a South Korean carrier.
Can't do that if you need a physical SIM!
Actually you can. My "published" phone number is parked at a voip firm, and I get calls on that number over data (fairly few real ones, since my friends tend to mostly use whatsapp to arrange social stuff.) When I travel, I buy a 25GB-for-a-month physical sim from 3UK, sold on the US Amazon site. The only downside is that you can't top up the data using the same pricing unless you're physically in the UK, so I have to get a new sim each trip.
This is actually quite common with physical SIMs aimed at travellers or those where multi-country or multi-network support is required.
A company will partner with a carrier in country X that has roaming agreements with carriers all over the world.
A company will partner with a carrier in country X that has roaming agreements with carriers all over the world.
“Wifi calling” is pretty cool if your operator supports and you got 2 sims.
Can you explain what you mean by this?
Having wifi calling on your home carrier means you can use the data of a cheap international carrier while you're traveling to make calls with your home carrier and not incur roaming charges.
This is because your home carrier basically VPN's to your home carrier's network over whatever data connection it has, so it's just using the cheap international data off the second card to make a VOIP call.
This is because your home carrier basically VPN's to your home carrier's network over whatever data connection it has, so it's just using the cheap international data off the second card to make a VOIP call.
Wifi calling sends calls (sent and received) over the Internet as UDP packets. So you can call somebody in your home country using your home country SIM, but the data is actually using your holiday SIM's data allowance. As roaming and "international" rates are crazy.
Just to clarify:
WiFi calling uses an 802.11 connection nearby, instead of a cell tower, and sends UDP packets over the WiFi network. (I don't know how far they transit the Internet; I assumed that they went to your mobile provider and entered the PSTN there.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_Access_Network
In this scenario, your "home country SIM" is providing you a phone number and provider's authorization to activate and use WiFi calling, but your voice calls aren't actually using the SIM or a cell tower.
Neither is your "holiday SIM" using data for this call: you're free to use that data allowance for browsing, streaming, general Internet use; it won't be taken up by phone calls.
WiFi calling uses an 802.11 connection nearby, instead of a cell tower, and sends UDP packets over the WiFi network. (I don't know how far they transit the Internet; I assumed that they went to your mobile provider and entered the PSTN there.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_Access_Network
In this scenario, your "home country SIM" is providing you a phone number and provider's authorization to activate and use WiFi calling, but your voice calls aren't actually using the SIM or a cell tower.
Neither is your "holiday SIM" using data for this call: you're free to use that data allowance for browsing, streaming, general Internet use; it won't be taken up by phone calls.
It's not really just WIFI calling. A data network and a WiFi network are all the same to a UDP packet and your phone can have settings to prefer one or the other so that you can use the data plan you want as if the WIFI were setup.
Yeah, an iPhone will use a secondary esim data connection to route “wifi” calls while abroad.
This article mostly doesn't apply to the US market. Let me explain. There's two kinds of lock-in possible with eSIM devices. The first is the standard carrier subsidy lock that AT&T and T-Mobile do with phones sold through them. Verizon doesn't do this due to the old agreement to buy Band 13 spectrum. This is what most people understand, and while it's pretty easy to just ask to have the phone unlocked by the carrier, most won't do this.
The other kind of lock-in AT&T and Verizon do, but T-Mobile does not. This is relating specifically to ESIM (euicc) and it being paired to 'approved' IMEI numbers. AT&T runs IMEI whitelists that only allow devices they sell to be used on the network and these lists also contain what technologies it's allowed to access. Verizon has an approved device list, but I believe their physical SIM cards will work in any phone with band support and voLTE profiles available, much better situation since they've gone CDMAless. What they will not allow for eSIM is activation using just the EID number of the ESIM itself. They maintain a database of devices with eSIM and what the matching IMEI is supposed to be. If you have a device not in that list, it won't activate. The standard explicitly mentions that collecting the IMEI is optional for activation: https://www.gsma.com/esim/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/SGP.22-... (page 115)
I have a device called an esim.me. They are kind of expensive but it will give you support for up to eSIM profiles on a removable card (like an 'normal' SIM card, but it's a smartcard that supports flipping through these profiles). In the US it's only currently possible to activate these using T-Mobile, and unless you use an eSIM iphone or a specific model of Samsung phone, you have to call support and give them the EID number to activate it. I can then physically swap this 'esim' between my devices, anything that supports USIM (basically 3G and later devices, even old featurephone from 2007 it works in).
The other kind of lock-in AT&T and Verizon do, but T-Mobile does not. This is relating specifically to ESIM (euicc) and it being paired to 'approved' IMEI numbers. AT&T runs IMEI whitelists that only allow devices they sell to be used on the network and these lists also contain what technologies it's allowed to access. Verizon has an approved device list, but I believe their physical SIM cards will work in any phone with band support and voLTE profiles available, much better situation since they've gone CDMAless. What they will not allow for eSIM is activation using just the EID number of the ESIM itself. They maintain a database of devices with eSIM and what the matching IMEI is supposed to be. If you have a device not in that list, it won't activate. The standard explicitly mentions that collecting the IMEI is optional for activation: https://www.gsma.com/esim/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/SGP.22-... (page 115)
I have a device called an esim.me. They are kind of expensive but it will give you support for up to eSIM profiles on a removable card (like an 'normal' SIM card, but it's a smartcard that supports flipping through these profiles). In the US it's only currently possible to activate these using T-Mobile, and unless you use an eSIM iphone or a specific model of Samsung phone, you have to call support and give them the EID number to activate it. I can then physically swap this 'esim' between my devices, anything that supports USIM (basically 3G and later devices, even old featurephone from 2007 it works in).
You have a typo: "support for up to eSIM profiles on a removable card". How many? Great comment though
15!
Thanks for covering my typo. HN had me throttled from the site for posting a burst of too many comments quickly so I took a break.
I have been using eSIMS's for years while traveling. The Internet is unlocked for my entire family for next to nothing. The prices get less expensive every year as well. IMO.
The idea of a phone number is antiquated and I suspect we'll see accelerated movement with a digital identity that you can attach to a stored value to get data for competitive rates.
The idea of a phone number is antiquated and I suspect we'll see accelerated movement with a digital identity that you can attach to a stored value to get data for competitive rates.
Esim is yet another way the big monopolies (tech and telecom) are taking more and more control away from the paying customer. The situation is very similar to when Apple and later others removed the headphone jack from phones.
No customer would be happy with the change. Some might be ambivalent, others annoyed. But they still did it just so Apple could build a billion dollar ear pods market.
Physical SIMs provide way too much power to the customer. They can change phones and numbers without involving the carrier or phone manufacturer. It's only logical that this last vestige of control be taken away too.
No customer would be happy with the change. Some might be ambivalent, others annoyed. But they still did it just so Apple could build a billion dollar ear pods market.
Physical SIMs provide way too much power to the customer. They can change phones and numbers without involving the carrier or phone manufacturer. It's only logical that this last vestige of control be taken away too.
eSIM has been working great for me when traveling to the UK and Canada from the USA.
I have an iPhone 13, which allows up to two eSIMs or one physical SIM and one eSIM to be active simultaneously.
The first time I did this, my primary account was a T-Mobile Connect SIM that didn't allow out of USA roaming. By the second time, I'd transferred to a Boost Mobile eSIM, which, again, doesn't allow out of USA roaming.
When traveling I just bought a data eSIM from a random provider ('BNE' and 'GlobaleSIM'). They have different pricing for varying combinations of data vs. time - a fixed amount per day, a fixed amount with a month time limit, a fixed amount with no time limit etc. They're very cheap compared to how things used to be (I think I paid about $15 for 3GB over two weeks in the UK, and $9 for 1GB of data with no time limit in Canada).
One thing I did not expect is that my US number kept working! With WiFi calling switched on, the non-roaming T-Mobile and Boost accounts just kept working by using VoIP over the data SIM's internet connection.
I have an iPhone 13, which allows up to two eSIMs or one physical SIM and one eSIM to be active simultaneously.
The first time I did this, my primary account was a T-Mobile Connect SIM that didn't allow out of USA roaming. By the second time, I'd transferred to a Boost Mobile eSIM, which, again, doesn't allow out of USA roaming.
When traveling I just bought a data eSIM from a random provider ('BNE' and 'GlobaleSIM'). They have different pricing for varying combinations of data vs. time - a fixed amount per day, a fixed amount with a month time limit, a fixed amount with no time limit etc. They're very cheap compared to how things used to be (I think I paid about $15 for 3GB over two weeks in the UK, and $9 for 1GB of data with no time limit in Canada).
One thing I did not expect is that my US number kept working! With WiFi calling switched on, the non-roaming T-Mobile and Boost accounts just kept working by using VoIP over the data SIM's internet connection.
I just don't see what problem eSIM solves aside from the "must be thinner/more seamless" non-problem.
I suppose there might be some corner-cases-- super-travelers, spammers, certain types of devs and network engineers, where being able to have a thick stack of emulated SIM cards and toggling between them would be valuable, but I'm pretty sure they sold devices to do that with physical cards back in the day.
What I do see is a bunch of interesting new failure modes, and the ability for the carrier to get in between me and changing devices. They're going to want to turn "Put in the little pin and pop out the card" into something that involves paying $30 for the generation of a QR code.
I suppose there might be some corner-cases-- super-travelers, spammers, certain types of devs and network engineers, where being able to have a thick stack of emulated SIM cards and toggling between them would be valuable, but I'm pretty sure they sold devices to do that with physical cards back in the day.
What I do see is a bunch of interesting new failure modes, and the ability for the carrier to get in between me and changing devices. They're going to want to turn "Put in the little pin and pop out the card" into something that involves paying $30 for the generation of a QR code.
All depends on what problem you value. If you do any kind of international travel the value is clear. If you care about waste and manufacture of an unnecessary product the value is clear.
I always figured physical SIMs were still preferrable for travel.
You can largely handle them unattended-- buy it from a kiosk or even a vending machine, and swap it without worry about having to bootstrap connectivity to a provisioning website or whether the carrier and device are willing to do the eSIM dance.
On the other hand, I'm actually surprised we don't see more carriers using better international roaming as a teaser to get people to buy more expensive plans too. The last time I went abroad (to the UK), my US T-mobile plan just worked for slow data, sufficient to Skype home (they said voice calls would be 25 cents per minute).
You can largely handle them unattended-- buy it from a kiosk or even a vending machine, and swap it without worry about having to bootstrap connectivity to a provisioning website or whether the carrier and device are willing to do the eSIM dance.
On the other hand, I'm actually surprised we don't see more carriers using better international roaming as a teaser to get people to buy more expensive plans too. The last time I went abroad (to the UK), my US T-mobile plan just worked for slow data, sufficient to Skype home (they said voice calls would be 25 cents per minute).
Much of the eSIM dislike on this thread misses several points:
* eSIM for travel vs eSIM for home use are completely different use cases.
* US, Canada and other carrier from other countries severely hamper the experience by charging for QR codes, physical delivery, IMEI requirements and carrier locking.
* Most handsets can have multiple eSIMs installed (I have 10 with one active) giving you carrier flexibility not previously possible.
* With VoLTE or WiFi Calling your home number works like a VOIP number anywhere in the world. In this case you may only need a data only eSIM, where KYC requirements are reduced and options are plentiful.
* eSIM for travel vs eSIM for home use are completely different use cases.
* US, Canada and other carrier from other countries severely hamper the experience by charging for QR codes, physical delivery, IMEI requirements and carrier locking.
* Most handsets can have multiple eSIMs installed (I have 10 with one active) giving you carrier flexibility not previously possible.
* With VoLTE or WiFi Calling your home number works like a VOIP number anywhere in the world. In this case you may only need a data only eSIM, where KYC requirements are reduced and options are plentiful.
No issues with eSIM on my end. I switched my number as soon as it was supported 3-4 iPhones ago and have migrated it myself between devices on each upgrade with no issues. Similar for my iPads. No issues moving eSIM between iPads on upgrade.
Traveling has also been super easy. I use the app to provision an eSim for the country I'm going to and activate it just after I land or via the plane WiFi if available.
The main issue with eSIM at the moment seems to be at the VMO level. A lot of VMOs don't offer eSIM because their parent carrier won't allow it. This is probably an area for the regulators to look into to make sure that the market stays competitive.
Traveling has also been super easy. I use the app to provision an eSim for the country I'm going to and activate it just after I land or via the plane WiFi if available.
The main issue with eSIM at the moment seems to be at the VMO level. A lot of VMOs don't offer eSIM because their parent carrier won't allow it. This is probably an area for the regulators to look into to make sure that the market stays competitive.
I don’t really understand what eSIM is. Does it act _just like_ a SIM card, but is software rather than a physical card? Does it modify how the phone acts on the network? For instance, if I put a Canadian SIM in my phone, I’ll probably be roaming. I’d have a local (eg: Verizon, AT&T, etc.) mobile ISP IP range, but be roaming from the provider perspective? Or, would I show up as coming from the Canadian mobile ISP’s network?
An eSIM is just a SIM but pre-embedded in the phone so the carrier can't provision a key inside a new SIM and then send it to you, they have to interactively and remotely setup their trust in a key in your non removable SIM.
There's not really any advantage AFA networks, etc, but it may be harder to GEO-restrict a software process than where you are willing to mail a new physical SIM, and of course it will be possible to support a lot more eSIM profiles simultaneously without the physical issues of trying to add bays for traditional SIMs that should be physically distinct if provisioned by different carriers.
There's not really any advantage AFA networks, etc, but it may be harder to GEO-restrict a software process than where you are willing to mail a new physical SIM, and of course it will be possible to support a lot more eSIM profiles simultaneously without the physical issues of trying to add bays for traditional SIMs that should be physically distinct if provisioned by different carriers.
eSIMs can also make it easier to switch phones. Want to try a different OS? Going hiking and don't want to risk your nice phone? Traveling?
A great thing about this is you can have multiple phones preconfigured for specific purposes and just move the line to the phone when needed. On one carrier, moving between phones takes a minute or two.
I eventually switched to Android from iOS after setting up one of each and switching between them.
A great thing about this is you can have multiple phones preconfigured for specific purposes and just move the line to the phone when needed. On one carrier, moving between phones takes a minute or two.
I eventually switched to Android from iOS after setting up one of each and switching between them.
Surely this is the same with real SIMs? I mean, assuming you have the "SIM tool" available, you can move the SIM from one phone to another in a minute or so?
The time I tried this in with my previous carrier with a smartphone, I had to call the cellular provider and get the phone "authorized" before it would work. I don't know if this was specific to the carrier, specific to the phone, or to the era (~10 years ago).
With my current carrier, switching physical SIMs does not activate the phone on the service. I have to use an app. Perhaps this is because I use an MVNO? eSIMs make this easier.
I had no problem swapping SIMs for basic phone service in the pre-smartphone era.
With my current carrier, switching physical SIMs does not activate the phone on the service. I have to use an app. Perhaps this is because I use an MVNO? eSIMs make this easier.
I had no problem swapping SIMs for basic phone service in the pre-smartphone era.
While I am an eSIM proponent, what you're describing could happen with eSIMs as well and is unrelated to the format of the SIM.
For example, I use AT&T and before eSIM I could transfer my physical SIM between phones without calling AT&T. Now, with eSIM I can still transfer my eSIM between phones without calling AT&T so nothing has really changed.
For example, I use AT&T and before eSIM I could transfer my physical SIM between phones without calling AT&T. Now, with eSIM I can still transfer my eSIM between phones without calling AT&T so nothing has really changed.
Can you transfer it between phones if one of them isn't working? This is an issue I have actually faced in the past that was no problem at all with a physical SIM. If I'm outside the US, my phone dies/is crushed, and I need to be back up and working: right now, I just pull my backup phone out of my bag, put the SIM in (assuming it isn't crushed or dead), and within a few minutes, I'm back up and running. If I have to go find WiFi to be able to get to Verizon's website to start the eSIM process, that's much more of a challenge. No 2FA because... my phone's dead and I can't get a text. No Verizon stores to show them the corpse of my old phone.
If there were some way to pre-transfer the eSIM and only activate it if needed, it might be a different story.
If there were some way to pre-transfer the eSIM and only activate it if needed, it might be a different story.
Not sure about AT&T because I've never done it, but with Visible (another phone in my family) I can login to the app and install a new eSIM again.
It really does depend on carrier policy I would say
It really does depend on carrier policy I would say
Thanks. Apparently you can do this on Verizon as well.
Still need WiFi, but that's not usually a nightmare. Glad I don't like traveling in the boonies, though.
Still need WiFi, but that's not usually a nightmare. Glad I don't like traveling in the boonies, though.
These pros and cons you list are all down to policies that a carrier may enact.
With a physical SIM, they can't stop you putting it into another phone, and there are no good technical reasons why you shouldn't be able to swap a SIM into a compatible phone and have it work immediately. That's how it's worked in many countries since GSM came out in the 90s.
With eSIMs, you may need to contact the carrier to transfer the SIM to a new device. This is a contact point with the carrier - and one where they can add barriers or fees.
With a physical SIM, they can't stop you putting it into another phone, and there are no good technical reasons why you shouldn't be able to swap a SIM into a compatible phone and have it work immediately. That's how it's worked in many countries since GSM came out in the 90s.
With eSIMs, you may need to contact the carrier to transfer the SIM to a new device. This is a contact point with the carrier - and one where they can add barriers or fees.
I was doing the same thing with physical SIMs for over a decade before eSIMs even existed. I even could use SIM trays to make the same one fit in different form factors.
In theory eSIMs are great, in practice they could make another surface of attack if a malicious app sneakily installs an eSIM that charges the user like 100 bucks for a 1 minute call. Social engineering might also be used to lure elderly and less technical users into accepting shady contracts, where a technical relative asked to physically installing the SIM could have spotted the scam.
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I’ve had great experiences using Airalo in Europe.
Just download the iOS app, buy a 50 GB plan on a regional Euro eSim, and install the eSim.
That’s it. Seamless roaming across NL, DE, AT, CZ, CH.
Just download the iOS app, buy a 50 GB plan on a regional Euro eSim, and install the eSim.
That’s it. Seamless roaming across NL, DE, AT, CZ, CH.
Disappointingly, ASUS's premium Zenfone 10 doesn't have eSIM. Though it does have dual SIM.
Are we ever going to be able to disambiguate embedded and electronic SIM devices?
eSIMs are a great invention. I had been swapping SIM cards for decades and life is so much better now. I can receive messages on both numbers and when I travel abroad I simply toggle between them as primary.
My main line is physical sim and my burner is an eSim. It's been great!
esim = yuck. I abhor the notion. Very political direction to hijack us all.
This all is a huge boondoggle to keep telcos afloat.
I don't understand why cell phones just connect to the internet and then have all services.
Phone numbers as an identification? Meh.
I don't understand why cell phones just connect to the internet and then have all services.
Phone numbers as an identification? Meh.
I find it inconvenient that pluggable eSIMS are so hard to get. In my opinion they combine the best of both worlds. You can download profiles without wating for SIM cards and you can put them in different phones.
Just exchange a slightly unreasonable about of money for a esim.me card. They can be managed on most Android devices and swapped even into a featurephone (read my comment before this though for some potential caveats).
The reality not so much. I tried it a few months ago and found:
* Scanning the QR code to install the esim requires internet - it can't activate the sim card to get internet unless it already has internet. Seems like a bit of an oversight!
* Once provisioned, the mobile network doesn't actually activate your account for a few hours. Kinda takes away the benefit of 'one click and go'.
* The phone is hardcoded to only support 4G via esim, although the phone itself supports 5G if you use a physical sim on the same mobile network. Nobody on the forums has managed to make it work.
* If you damage the phone, there is no way to transfer the esim to a new phone. I assumed it would transfer over automatically as part of backup/restore, either via cable or cloud backup, but no.
* The mobile network has no ability to transfer the sim over either. Apparently their software doesn't allow it. The only way is to transfer to a physical sim, wait for it to arrive, then mark the physical sim as lost, and then reorder an esim. Great - that takes 4 days, during which you have no service.
Most of these flaws are problems with the mobile network's policies and processes. But some are with the esim spec (not allowing backup/restore, not having enough info in the QR code to connect to a network without internet).
Overall, esims have so far caused me hours of frustration and little benefit.