Area 51 FBI Raid (2023)(area51fbiraid.com)
area51fbiraid.com
Area 51 FBI Raid (2023)
https://www.area51fbiraid.com/
82 comments
Unchanged opinion since last submitted: some obsessive person is consistently and purposefully trying to dig out defense secrets while somehow being incredule that anyone would have any problems with it. Doesn't inspire much sympathy. When your delusions turn you into an unbeknownst foreign intelligence assets, I guess it's a bit sad but also... tough luck?
>When your delusions turn you into an unbeknownst foreign intelligence asset
Could you at least wait until we're at war before you bring out the usual wartime justifications for unconstitutionally restricting civilian's freedom of speech?
From the linked website,
>I was never given a reason for the raid, nor have I been charged with a crime. In fact, I have not heard from the FBI since the day of the raid. I have done nothing illegal.
Could you at least wait until we're at war before you bring out the usual wartime justifications for unconstitutionally restricting civilian's freedom of speech?
From the linked website,
>I was never given a reason for the raid, nor have I been charged with a crime. In fact, I have not heard from the FBI since the day of the raid. I have done nothing illegal.
Questions:
1. Do you think that confiscation of property for use in an investigation is unconstitutional?
2. Do you think that prosecutors need to be able to press charges as soon as or soon after the execution of a search warrant? If so, what is a reasonable time frame?
3. Do you think that people who regularly obsess over and take pictures of secure military installations are reliable witnesses regarding their own actions?
4. What do you propose be done in this case?
1. Do you think that confiscation of property for use in an investigation is unconstitutional?
2. Do you think that prosecutors need to be able to press charges as soon as or soon after the execution of a search warrant? If so, what is a reasonable time frame?
3. Do you think that people who regularly obsess over and take pictures of secure military installations are reliable witnesses regarding their own actions?
4. What do you propose be done in this case?
1. "Unreasonable" search and seizure includes taking stuff from people, keeping it forever, and never giving it back despite taking arbitrarily long to charge them.
2. The sixth amendment guarantees the right to a speedy trial. If law enforcement has a good reason to hold you or your belongings, it is in anticipation of a trial. I don't think the police have a right to hold on to your stuff forever only for the shortest reasonable time as determined by the speed of the judicial system, not "until they crack the case enough to figure out whether it was you."
3. There is a time and a place for determining who is a reliable witness of what.
4. That the FBI either give this guy his PC back or press the espionage charges you come across as believing (with no evidence) he could be found guilty of.
2. The sixth amendment guarantees the right to a speedy trial. If law enforcement has a good reason to hold you or your belongings, it is in anticipation of a trial. I don't think the police have a right to hold on to your stuff forever only for the shortest reasonable time as determined by the speed of the judicial system, not "until they crack the case enough to figure out whether it was you."
3. There is a time and a place for determining who is a reliable witness of what.
4. That the FBI either give this guy his PC back or press the espionage charges you come across as believing (with no evidence) he could be found guilty of.
> That the FBI either give this guy his PC back or press the espionage charges you come across as believing (with no evidence) he could be found guilty of.
I take offense to this. Why does someone asking what you believe lead you to conclude that they are against you?
Thanks for explaining your position.
I take offense to this. Why does someone asking what you believe lead you to conclude that they are against you?
Thanks for explaining your position.
Because although it may have been unintentional, your choice of words communicated a sentiment in addition to the literal meaning of what you wrote.
1. Seizures needs a complete overhaul. The "unreasonable" part of the 4th amendment has (in my opinion) lost all meaning. Civil forfeiture is a shining example.
This seems very light on actual details on what happened, whom they are, etcetera without being asked to search through 100 pages to uncover each detail?
He's the guy who runs this website https://dreamlandresort.com/
The warrants cite "Photographing and Sketching Defense Installations" a.k.a. it's over stuff like this https://dreamlandresort.com/area51/panorama_0523.html
The warrants cite "Photographing and Sketching Defense Installations" a.k.a. it's over stuff like this https://dreamlandresort.com/area51/panorama_0523.html
I've heard if you can see it from outside theres no reasonable expectation of privacy, no?
You think it's perfectly legal to fly a drone over a US Air Force Base and snap a couple photos and throw them up on a public website?
I think that one of the core tenets of our way of governing today is that the ruler must be held to the same laws that the ruled are held to, and I'm not so quick to abandon that tenet. You feel free to let them slide for whatever reason motivates you to do so. As long as they can fly a drone over my house to see what I'm up to I will continue to cheer on people that do the same to them.
Well, this was interesting, even if I have no idea what I'm looking at and my skepticism about all things remains high.
You’re looking at free intel provided to China/Russia etc about US next generation weapons capabilities!
They develop aircraft here, stuff that is wildly important to the (current) global security regime. Not a thing I’d personally want to be recklessly/ignorantly poking and prodding by releasing photos like that.
They develop aircraft here, stuff that is wildly important to the (current) global security regime. Not a thing I’d personally want to be recklessly/ignorantly poking and prodding by releasing photos like that.
This is just ridiculous paranoia.
Compare the quality of satellite photography a well funded nation state has access to against Mr Arnu's taken from 42km away.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/2019-08-...
https://dreamlandresort.com/area51/panorama_0523.html
It's not an unknown problem either and the 3 letter people have decades of experience dealing with it including moveable shelters.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/is-this-a-secret-aircr...
Compare the quality of satellite photography a well funded nation state has access to against Mr Arnu's taken from 42km away.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/2019-08-...
https://dreamlandresort.com/area51/panorama_0523.html
It's not an unknown problem either and the 3 letter people have decades of experience dealing with it including moveable shelters.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/is-this-a-secret-aircr...
Ultimately my opinion boils down to two things:
1) I would prefer the US maintains a military advantage over all of its adversaries, and these types of programs have historically been extremely, extremely important to that.
2) I trust the military’s assessment of whether any particular images compromise those programs much, much, much more than I trust the assessment of random internet commentators or of a random guy who got sufficiently obsessed with Area 51 to move to its outskirts and start photographing it.
You, I, and the blogger have no way of knowing what important pieces of information he may be filling in for our adversaries. If you don’t care about our advantage, fine, or if you are of the “information wants to be free” religious persuasion, fine — I don’t think those are commonly held views however and I don’t think they will or should shield this guy from due process.
1) I would prefer the US maintains a military advantage over all of its adversaries, and these types of programs have historically been extremely, extremely important to that.
2) I trust the military’s assessment of whether any particular images compromise those programs much, much, much more than I trust the assessment of random internet commentators or of a random guy who got sufficiently obsessed with Area 51 to move to its outskirts and start photographing it.
You, I, and the blogger have no way of knowing what important pieces of information he may be filling in for our adversaries. If you don’t care about our advantage, fine, or if you are of the “information wants to be free” religious persuasion, fine — I don’t think those are commonly held views however and I don’t think they will or should shield this guy from due process.
But it’s really not. A satellite is never going to be able to get the same shots as someone ground level with a good camera.
We’re also actively tracking where their satellites are at any given point in time and move things when they aren’t overhead.
So to act as if an individual on the ground couldn’t get info the satellites cannot is just silly.
We’re also actively tracking where their satellites are at any given point in time and move things when they aren’t overhead.
So to act as if an individual on the ground couldn’t get info the satellites cannot is just silly.
This was the case but isn't really true anymore.
With the proliferation of commercial LEO imaging satellites there's pretty much always one above you.
Synthetic aperture radar satellites work at night and under the clouds as well so if you're trying to hide an aircraft development program it's going to be rather difficult.
edit: Radar messes with SAR as well but the government hasn't even bothered to try to shield Area 51.
https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/2022/02/11/radar-interf...
With the proliferation of commercial LEO imaging satellites there's pretty much always one above you.
Synthetic aperture radar satellites work at night and under the clouds as well so if you're trying to hide an aircraft development program it's going to be rather difficult.
edit: Radar messes with SAR as well but the government hasn't even bothered to try to shield Area 51.
https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/2022/02/11/radar-interf...
> With the proliferation of commercial LEO imaging satellites there's pretty much always one above you.
Try buying pictures of Area 51 from one of those commercial leos and let us all know how that conversation goes.
> Synthetic aperture radar satellites work at night and under the clouds as well so if you're trying to hide an aircraft development program it's going to be rather difficult.
Which provide
Try buying pictures of Area 51 from one of those commercial leos and let us all know how that conversation goes.
> Synthetic aperture radar satellites work at night and under the clouds as well so if you're trying to hide an aircraft development program it's going to be rather difficult.
Which provide
Then the military ought to choose a better location, somewhere a civilian with a good camera can't take such compromising photos.
Alaska tundra would probably be the best spot given the absence of people, cloud cover, ice as runway, and cold for engine efficiency. Would be interesting to know how many mountain tops would need to be closed to stop the ground cameras for 51.
[deleted]
Sure! Til then I’m 100% fine with them going after people who blatantly break a completely reasonable law.
They are not breaking any laws though.
If you film stuff from public space, you are not breaking any law.
The onus is on the government to secure their stuff, not punish people taking photos from public lands.
If you film stuff from public space, you are not breaking any law.
The onus is on the government to secure their stuff, not punish people taking photos from public lands.
It is quite obviously completely illegal, and you can look at the search warrant (indicating a judge agreed there was probable cause) for the specific laws. I copy/pasted a few below for you. Whether all or some of those laws are constitutional and will stand up in court can change year by year. I strongly, strongly suspect that no judge is going to strike down the government's ability to restrict people from collecting and disseminating information on secret military installations. It is objectively true that these installations, their secrecy (and this one installation and its secrecy in particular) have been instrumental to the federal government's ability to carry out its obligations over the past several decades.
18 USC 795: It's illegal to photograph or sketch secret military installations (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/795)
18 USC 796: It's illegal to use an aircraft to photograph secret military installations (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/796)
18 USC 797: It's illegal to disseminate photographs of secret military installations (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/797)
Arresting people for openly breaking the law is a perfectly valid component of "securing their stuff." In fact that is precisely how almost everything in our society is actually secured: by threat of law.
18 USC 795: It's illegal to photograph or sketch secret military installations (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/795)
18 USC 796: It's illegal to use an aircraft to photograph secret military installations (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/796)
18 USC 797: It's illegal to disseminate photographs of secret military installations (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/797)
Arresting people for openly breaking the law is a perfectly valid component of "securing their stuff." In fact that is precisely how almost everything in our society is actually secured: by threat of law.
I stand corrected. 18 USC 796 I can understand, but 18 USC 795 and 18 USC 797 surprise me. I would have thought such laws were restricted to military personnel. Civilians sketching or photographing from public space I would have thought would be legal.
Not even a country with such strong protections as the US would legalize spying on their secret military installations…
There is a difference in 'spying', and taking photos from a public viewpoint though.
It's not really spying if it's done completely out in the open.
The same way you can't 'spy' on police or other government buildings by filming them from public view, something explicitly allowed.
It's not really spying if it's done completely out in the open.
The same way you can't 'spy' on police or other government buildings by filming them from public view, something explicitly allowed.
You can’t spy on police and government buildings because they’re not sensitive.
They are largely meant to operate in the public eye. Some weapon development programs aren’t (thus they are secret).
Please note: If you pull up to the gates of CIA with a zoom lens and start taking photos of their doors and windows, you will also have a very bad time, despite the fact that both inside and outside the gates are public land.
They are largely meant to operate in the public eye. Some weapon development programs aren’t (thus they are secret).
Please note: If you pull up to the gates of CIA with a zoom lens and start taking photos of their doors and windows, you will also have a very bad time, despite the fact that both inside and outside the gates are public land.
so... time travel back to pre-2020s?
"Do not take photos of secret military installations (especially using drones)" seems a relevant takeaway. It's disingenuous that he says "I didn't do anything illegal" when the search warrants lists the laws that were broken.
Though the fact that it's basically vandalism is still concerning. But the photos only show door damage, not sure where those $numbers are coming from.
Though the fact that it's basically vandalism is still concerning. But the photos only show door damage, not sure where those $numbers are coming from.
So if he has broken a law why is he not being charged? What happened to due process? If they are not charging him it has at least not been determined by law that he has broken the law, in fact he has not even been formally accused of it. Still he is being punished with $30,000.
I wonder how you would react if the police would take e.g. your car under the pretence of "we think you might have been speeding" and after six month you still have not have your car returned, or been actually fined (or taken to court for speeding). But the only comment on a forum is "well he should have been speeding".
I wonder how you would react if the police would take e.g. your car under the pretence of "we think you might have been speeding" and after six month you still have not have your car returned, or been actually fined (or taken to court for speeding). But the only comment on a forum is "well he should have been speeding".
In principle I agree with you. The US j̶̶̶u̶̶s̶̶t̶̶i̶̶c̶̶e̶ legal system is not fair. But flying surveillance drones over the most clandestine military facility on the continent and posting the photos online is maybe the swiftest and least justifiable way to poke the bear outside of physical violence.
Police investigate before they press charges. Investigation involves gathering and seizing evidence. On a national security matter I would expect them to be thorough and tight-lipped.
In most nations simply attempting to photograph the base at all, whether trespassing or not, would be criminal. For all their problems the US feds are legally required to tolerate many activities that would be plainly illegal in most nations. The Snowden documents circulated because it's not illegal in the US for regular civilians or newspapers to view or distribute classified material, only those who are military or have a clearance (and no need to know) are forbidden. Elsewhere state secrets laws define that activity to be universally criminal.
Police investigate before they press charges. Investigation involves gathering and seizing evidence. On a national security matter I would expect them to be thorough and tight-lipped.
In most nations simply attempting to photograph the base at all, whether trespassing or not, would be criminal. For all their problems the US feds are legally required to tolerate many activities that would be plainly illegal in most nations. The Snowden documents circulated because it's not illegal in the US for regular civilians or newspapers to view or distribute classified material, only those who are military or have a clearance (and no need to know) are forbidden. Elsewhere state secrets laws define that activity to be universally criminal.
Area 51 is not clandestine anymore, but it's odd that it was only officially acknowledge in 2013 https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/government-of...
Walk up to the Area 51 gate and ask them if you can wonder around their labs and take some photos. I think you'll quickly find that their work is still top secret.
Indeed it is
I don't think anyone cares about what candaians who think they are Americans believe simply because they live nearby.
As subjects of the King, canadians have no understanding of liberty, nor the founding principles of the American nation. They fled as soon as people suggested defiance. Subjugation is in the veins of canadians.
As subjects of the King, canadians have no understanding of liberty, nor the founding principles of the American nation. They fled as soon as people suggested defiance. Subjugation is in the veins of canadians.
Charging comes after collecting evidence. The FBI has to go through all of the evidence from search warrant. Then they have to determine if should charge him. Then he gets arrested or has his devices returned.
The process is the punishment. Most likely he will win in court, but after years of legal battles, lost equipment that he has to replace without reimbursement, and having to find funds to pay contractors to repair his residence.
> lost equipment that he has to replace without reimbursement
This is just theft. How is this legal?
This is just theft. How is this legal?
Because the State does it instead of a different organization. I wish I was joking but that is literally their justification- that because it’s done by a State it’s automatically legal. Of course the courts will rule differently but the people who stole won’t be punished.
The "monopoly of violence" at play, which has devolved into "the state has a monopoly on violence, so any application of that violence by the state is justified and moral"
How do you prepose criminal investigators collect possible evidence... without actually collecting it? You come with complaints but no proposed solutions.
Cause taking photos of military installation is equivalent to a summary offense such as speeding, huh?
Going through the website linked above it’s pretty obvious this would be a huge, huge security problem for an installation like that and yeah, ultimately for the nation.
looks like the FBI busted down his door, took all his stuff 6 months ago and never charged him with a crime or returned any property.
Seems bad enough to me on the surface.
I have to admit I am intensely curious about what hit this big of a nerve with the feds.
Seems bad enough to me on the surface.
I have to admit I am intensely curious about what hit this big of a nerve with the feds.
My read from one of the warrants is that the FBI et al can keep anything pertaining to the investigation.
Apparently after 6 months, that investigation is still active. This is why they’re not commenting on anything or returning anything.
Honestly this all seems pretty normal based solely on a long history of TV watching. I mean the investigation may not even be primarily about him. Who knows what it’s all about.
IANAL.
Apparently after 6 months, that investigation is still active. This is why they’re not commenting on anything or returning anything.
Honestly this all seems pretty normal based solely on a long history of TV watching. I mean the investigation may not even be primarily about him. Who knows what it’s all about.
IANAL.
The search warrants are relating to “information and records about military installations and their operation”.
Taking photos and flying drones at classified military locations is probably what hit the nerve of the feds.
Taking photos and flying drones at classified military locations is probably what hit the nerve of the feds.
likely posting pix and panorams of the base along with analysis of observations For Anyone To See.
I had no idea of the whole issue and it took my all of 10min reading to understand what happened. I know the attention economy requires immediate gratification, but I thought we are better than this here at HN. If you're not interested enough to read a page or two, why comment?
Here are some news articles that have covered the raid:
-https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2022/11/18...
-https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/joerg-arnu...
-https://nypost.com/2022/11/17/federal-agents-raid-nevada-hom...
-https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2022/11/18...
-https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/joerg-arnu...
-https://nypost.com/2022/11/17/federal-agents-raid-nevada-hom...
And they've raised 17 thousand bucks so far.
I tried to go to area51 once. You can't even begin the trip there on ground without getting on gravel roads patrolled by unmakred cars with guys that have automatic machine guns driving them.
Not to mention the locals from Parhump in NV to further away in Shoshone,CA everyone kept asking me wtf I was doing there. The moment I mentioned area 51, I thought they'd think it was about aliens (it was sort of, but not seriously, just pop culture curiosity) but everyone got very serious suspecting me of trying to spy on behalf of some foreign country perhaps. My read was people getting paid to sneak and take pictures of area51 secret military stuff is not uncommon. I honestly thought, given the publicity, the government would only test not-so-secret stuff area51.
There are more isolated places in central and northern nevada for even more secret lairs.
Not to mention the locals from Parhump in NV to further away in Shoshone,CA everyone kept asking me wtf I was doing there. The moment I mentioned area 51, I thought they'd think it was about aliens (it was sort of, but not seriously, just pop culture curiosity) but everyone got very serious suspecting me of trying to spy on behalf of some foreign country perhaps. My read was people getting paid to sneak and take pictures of area51 secret military stuff is not uncommon. I honestly thought, given the publicity, the government would only test not-so-secret stuff area51.
There are more isolated places in central and northern nevada for even more secret lairs.
I've always wondered why someone just doesn't set up an unattended camera to transmit pictures in real time. But I guess these guys operating extralegally would do something.
As someone whose home country is currently at war, I wouldn’t mind if the guy was also publicly flogged with some BDSM implements for extra humiliation.
“Nothing illegal”, my arse… There are reasons you shouldn’t be publicizing defense facilities photos, some folks had to learn it the hard way.
“Nothing illegal”, my arse… There are reasons you shouldn’t be publicizing defense facilities photos, some folks had to learn it the hard way.
I am very sympathetic to wartime necessitates but I would ask why fight to remain free if not to enjoy the freedom, including filming the government from a legal vantage, in times of peace?
Because you cannot reasonably predict if and for how long times of peace are going to last, and if they suddenly stop, you're in top 10 contributors to fucking up the defense position. Sure it's assumed that espionage exists and that leaks will happen, but if some aggressive "They" come for you and yours and have a very easy time because you specifically have done all the recon for them, you're going to realize just how fucking stupid of you it has been.
There are other areas of government you can, and should put a pressure on, but jeopardizing one's own defense is the most brain damaged way to go about it.
I would surely make a fuss if open/public/declassified information sources point at egregious inefficiencies of defense. I want more killer robodogs like they had in that Black Mirror episode, powerful and resiliend mine removal equipment, and swarms of inexpensive lethal and recon drones with dozens of lethal heavy drones to follow them please, not some swindle like a fence painted for $500k or something to that tune. I'm ok with many halfway failed killer robodog projects, though.
There are other areas of government you can, and should put a pressure on, but jeopardizing one's own defense is the most brain damaged way to go about it.
I would surely make a fuss if open/public/declassified information sources point at egregious inefficiencies of defense. I want more killer robodogs like they had in that Black Mirror episode, powerful and resiliend mine removal equipment, and swarms of inexpensive lethal and recon drones with dozens of lethal heavy drones to follow them please, not some swindle like a fence painted for $500k or something to that tune. I'm ok with many halfway failed killer robodog projects, though.
To what end though, do you need to take such pictures? What aspect of your life is enhanced by documenting and publishing the photos of these military bases?
If you accept that it’s best that a country has a strong defense, and that part of that is your enemy not knowing literally everything you’ve got, then you accept that some things should be kept secret. And secret means nothing if they make no effort to stop people from snooping and then publishing everything online.
If you accept that it’s best that a country has a strong defense, and that part of that is your enemy not knowing literally everything you’ve got, then you accept that some things should be kept secret. And secret means nothing if they make no effort to stop people from snooping and then publishing everything online.
Where is Art Bell when we need him?
http://stream3.u7radio.org:8500/
http://198.27.120.235:8450/
http://stream3.u7radio.org:8500/
http://198.27.120.235:8450/
I was a little bewildered when I first opened this. My mind immediately went to, "Is this... an ARG?" But, no, just police overreach and fundamental rights infringement. Actually kind of appropriate for Area "Is it aliens, the proof that we're not alone in the universe, suspicions vindicated that our government - one that is the most powerful in the world and yet unable to solve problems less wealthy countries have a handle on - is hiding its true capabilities from us? No, just more sophisticated ways to kill people." 51.
I’m unsure if a practical political philosophy exists that doesn’t endorse halting efforts to expose defense secrets. I may not fully agree with the majority of the world - where such endeavors might promptly be met with a bullet between the eyes - yet, if you only lost some gear, you should likely consider yourself lucky.
Area 51 is an air force base that's used to test experimental aircraft, nothing more.
The ayy lmao obsessors need to move on. There are far more too secret bases out there that could hold actual aliens but they're all stuck up on this salt flat in the desert.
The ayy lmao obsessors need to move on. There are far more too secret bases out there that could hold actual aliens but they're all stuck up on this salt flat in the desert.
> used to test experimental aircraft
This is the reason I think it's interesting though
This is the reason I think it's interesting though
True, some of these top secret crafts are something else.
There's a reason why America never bothered to develop hypersonic missiles.
There's a reason why America never bothered to develop hypersonic missiles.
TechBro8615(4)