What's Wrong with Me?
45 comments
You have communication problems - the needless tech listing took so much space that you had to make your actual point in a comment, and at the same you left out much more relevant information like what you've been doing recently.
But also it's a tough job market right now, don't necessarily blame yourself if you're getting rejections.
But also it's a tough job market right now, don't necessarily blame yourself if you're getting rejections.
Communication is the least of his problems. I read his post just fine.
It's definitely not the most well written and clear post but it is far away from anything that I would call a "problem". He can definitely shorten his cv, but again this is not a "problem".
The tough market is 100 percent the most likely culprit.
Here's his real problem:
https://digg.com/data-viz/link/the-best-and-worst-us-states-...
If he's in tech and in one of those problem states then he's doubly screwed.
It's definitely not the most well written and clear post but it is far away from anything that I would call a "problem". He can definitely shorten his cv, but again this is not a "problem".
The tough market is 100 percent the most likely culprit.
Here's his real problem:
https://digg.com/data-viz/link/the-best-and-worst-us-states-...
If he's in tech and in one of those problem states then he's doubly screwed.
Never seen a digg link on HN.
> but it is far away from anything that I would call a "problem".
I see a problem when someone is boasting about knowing json and ipod development, they open with an excuse for dropping out of school 40 years ago but don't want to say what they've been working on in the past few years.
I see a problem when someone is boasting about knowing json and ipod development, they open with an excuse for dropping out of school 40 years ago but don't want to say what they've been working on in the past few years.
he's asking for advice here, it's not the CV he presents to jobs.
The json thing is a little excessive but again not a "problem"
The json thing is a little excessive but again not a "problem"
> You have communication problems - the needless tech listing took so much space that you had to make your actual point in a comment, and at the same you left out much more relevant information like what you've been doing recently.
While I thank you for taking the time to critique, I think you are being a bit harsh, particularly considering my post was a brain-dump of skills. It isn't a job application.
Same with your JSON, iOS development comment. Again, a brain dump. You'd be surprised how many people have no clue what JSON is. Same with mobile development. Maybe HN is the wrong crowd for a list containing some of these skills to resonate.
Anyhow, thanks again.
While I thank you for taking the time to critique, I think you are being a bit harsh, particularly considering my post was a brain-dump of skills. It isn't a job application.
Same with your JSON, iOS development comment. Again, a brain dump. You'd be surprised how many people have no clue what JSON is. Same with mobile development. Maybe HN is the wrong crowd for a list containing some of these skills to resonate.
Anyhow, thanks again.
I want to echo what jstx1 said, but I'll try to expand.
Firstly, I think you sound a little entitled. Maybe that's not how you present yourself, but your post read to me like you feel you're very accomplished and companies are not giving you the recognition you deserve. If that's how you're presenting yourself that's obviously going to be off putting.
Secondly, despite the huge experience dump, you haven't really given me any clue of what you actually do... Like at all.
You could be applying for senior leadership roles given your experience as "CEO" & "VP/Director of Engineering" and with experience in "international business", "sales and marketing", "supply chain management", etc.
But you seem to have experience in manufacturing, so maybe you're looking for some kind of product design / manufacturing role?
You also have experience in web development, so maybe you're looking for a web development role?
You also list experience with embedded systems, so maybe you're for a job as an embedded systems engineer?
You also experience with app development, so maybe you're for a job as an app developer?
I have no doubt you've accomplished a lot, but companies hire people who can help them with specific roles. No company is looking for someone with experience with jQuery and CNC milling, for example. So unfortunately as accomplished as I'm sure you are the vast majority of the experience you listed here is worthless since it's not complimentary. If you had instead listed a several programming languages and frameworks which you worked with over the course of a couple of decades then that would have suggested to me – one, what you do and the roles you're applying for; and two, that you're a very knowledgable software engineer. At which point I'd also be thinking, "hmm, weird this guy can't seem to find work".
Listing a bunch of unassociated roles and experience over your career raises far more questions about how much experience you have with any of the specific skills listed. Keep this in mind when applying for roles and ensure you're tailoring your resume appropriately.
Generally the following are good assumptions to make:
- If you don't get interviews there's something wrong with your profile – either you have the wrong experience, or you're not selling that experience well in your resume.
- If you get interviews and are able to answer technical questions then there's something with your with communication skills. Companies probably don't think you'll be a good company / team fit for some reason. You should try to understand why.
- If you're getting interviews but can't give good answers to technical questions, then your issue is experience.
So what do you actually do? What is your experience in that role? And where are you falling short?
Answering these answers will probably help you understand where you're going wrong and how to better sell yourself. And if you want to share, then I'm happy to give my thoughts.
Firstly, I think you sound a little entitled. Maybe that's not how you present yourself, but your post read to me like you feel you're very accomplished and companies are not giving you the recognition you deserve. If that's how you're presenting yourself that's obviously going to be off putting.
Secondly, despite the huge experience dump, you haven't really given me any clue of what you actually do... Like at all.
You could be applying for senior leadership roles given your experience as "CEO" & "VP/Director of Engineering" and with experience in "international business", "sales and marketing", "supply chain management", etc.
But you seem to have experience in manufacturing, so maybe you're looking for some kind of product design / manufacturing role?
You also have experience in web development, so maybe you're looking for a web development role?
You also list experience with embedded systems, so maybe you're for a job as an embedded systems engineer?
You also experience with app development, so maybe you're for a job as an app developer?
I have no doubt you've accomplished a lot, but companies hire people who can help them with specific roles. No company is looking for someone with experience with jQuery and CNC milling, for example. So unfortunately as accomplished as I'm sure you are the vast majority of the experience you listed here is worthless since it's not complimentary. If you had instead listed a several programming languages and frameworks which you worked with over the course of a couple of decades then that would have suggested to me – one, what you do and the roles you're applying for; and two, that you're a very knowledgable software engineer. At which point I'd also be thinking, "hmm, weird this guy can't seem to find work".
Listing a bunch of unassociated roles and experience over your career raises far more questions about how much experience you have with any of the specific skills listed. Keep this in mind when applying for roles and ensure you're tailoring your resume appropriately.
Generally the following are good assumptions to make:
- If you don't get interviews there's something wrong with your profile – either you have the wrong experience, or you're not selling that experience well in your resume.
- If you get interviews and are able to answer technical questions then there's something with your with communication skills. Companies probably don't think you'll be a good company / team fit for some reason. You should try to understand why.
- If you're getting interviews but can't give good answers to technical questions, then your issue is experience.
So what do you actually do? What is your experience in that role? And where are you falling short?
Answering these answers will probably help you understand where you're going wrong and how to better sell yourself. And if you want to share, then I'm happy to give my thoughts.
> Answering these answers will probably help you understand where you're going wrong and how to better sell yourself.
Good feedback. Thanks.
No, not entitled at all. Also, not arrogant (you didn't say or imply that, just adding this myself). I know what I know and can do and where I might be out of my depth. I have no problem at all admitting this in the course of my work. That's how you learn.
I feel I have to repeat what I have posted a couple of times now: My original post isn't intended to be a resume. No attempt whatsoever was made to make it sound good or be the kind of thing I would submit to anyone for a job application. It's just a raw brain dump of skills and knowledge I acquired over four decades.
To your point, yes, I can see that even a well-written version of these skills could be very confusing for what I am going to call single-discipline jobs. You are right, if someone is looking for a web developer or embedded software guy, the fact that I own an industrial CNC machine and can run it is a ridiculous thing to add. I don't think I've done that in applications, yet, I have to admit that I have sent off many cloned applications out of frustration without filtering in/out what relevant bits should and should not be there.
What you are saying is correct. If the skills presented in a resume turn out to be orthogonal to the job, they might as well be excluded or left as material for a conversation in answer to the question "What else have you done?".
I should say I have applied to a range of jobs where the position entails managing multidisciplinary engineering teams. In that case the skills should not be orthogonal at all. Maybe I have to think through the presentation or avoid listing skills and focus on management "stories", again, leaving the details for a conversation.
I can see how more can be confusing and detrimental to getting past the first proverbial filters. That much makes sense. I guess the question is: Where do you draw the line or lines. The first are easy: Job-relevant skills. And, perhaps, from there, and being very selective, add skills that might add context yet not look/feel irrelevant.
Something to think about.
A problem with having been an entrepreneur for decades is that you are not used to applying for jobs. I have hired people for roles from sales, web dev, marketing, hardware and software engineering, etc. In all cases I always had the patience to fully evaluate every person who put a resume in front of me.
I guess I am saying I never really learned to apply for jobs. I know that sounds stupid. Really stupid. 60 years old, and you are realizing you might not know how to apply for a job? Well, my reality is that I never had to apply for jobs when I was in my 20's and 30's. I could (and did) walk out of one job and land another in the same industry the same day without having to apply for it. Small industry. People knew key players. By my mid-30's I launched into entrepreneurship. Didn't have to apply for that job. And that was that. I didn't have to consider applying for a job until about ten years ago. I've been busy with consulting contracts, some as long as two years. So, yeah, maybe the one thing I am getting out of this is that I might not have that skill.
Interesting. Something to work on.
Thanks.
Good feedback. Thanks.
No, not entitled at all. Also, not arrogant (you didn't say or imply that, just adding this myself). I know what I know and can do and where I might be out of my depth. I have no problem at all admitting this in the course of my work. That's how you learn.
I feel I have to repeat what I have posted a couple of times now: My original post isn't intended to be a resume. No attempt whatsoever was made to make it sound good or be the kind of thing I would submit to anyone for a job application. It's just a raw brain dump of skills and knowledge I acquired over four decades.
To your point, yes, I can see that even a well-written version of these skills could be very confusing for what I am going to call single-discipline jobs. You are right, if someone is looking for a web developer or embedded software guy, the fact that I own an industrial CNC machine and can run it is a ridiculous thing to add. I don't think I've done that in applications, yet, I have to admit that I have sent off many cloned applications out of frustration without filtering in/out what relevant bits should and should not be there.
What you are saying is correct. If the skills presented in a resume turn out to be orthogonal to the job, they might as well be excluded or left as material for a conversation in answer to the question "What else have you done?".
I should say I have applied to a range of jobs where the position entails managing multidisciplinary engineering teams. In that case the skills should not be orthogonal at all. Maybe I have to think through the presentation or avoid listing skills and focus on management "stories", again, leaving the details for a conversation.
I can see how more can be confusing and detrimental to getting past the first proverbial filters. That much makes sense. I guess the question is: Where do you draw the line or lines. The first are easy: Job-relevant skills. And, perhaps, from there, and being very selective, add skills that might add context yet not look/feel irrelevant.
Something to think about.
A problem with having been an entrepreneur for decades is that you are not used to applying for jobs. I have hired people for roles from sales, web dev, marketing, hardware and software engineering, etc. In all cases I always had the patience to fully evaluate every person who put a resume in front of me.
I guess I am saying I never really learned to apply for jobs. I know that sounds stupid. Really stupid. 60 years old, and you are realizing you might not know how to apply for a job? Well, my reality is that I never had to apply for jobs when I was in my 20's and 30's. I could (and did) walk out of one job and land another in the same industry the same day without having to apply for it. Small industry. People knew key players. By my mid-30's I launched into entrepreneurship. Didn't have to apply for that job. And that was that. I didn't have to consider applying for a job until about ten years ago. I've been busy with consulting contracts, some as long as two years. So, yeah, maybe the one thing I am getting out of this is that I might not have that skill.
Interesting. Something to work on.
Thanks.
Age discrimination might be part of it, but even if you don't list your age at all, you seem impossibly overqualified for a lot of positions.
Do you want to get a job as an engineer? Or a CEO? Will you accept a job as a mid level programmer?
You need to tailor your CV to the job you're applying to and leave almost everything else out.
Do you want to get a job as an engineer? Or a CEO? Will you accept a job as a mid level programmer?
You need to tailor your CV to the job you're applying to and leave almost everything else out.
> You need to tailor your CV to the job you're applying to and leave almost everything else out.
I recently read an article about modern job application evaluation. The author said that if it takes more than 10 seconds to get a sense of who you are, your CV will get tossed.
That means one-page CV's with ten bullet points and large type (or something like that).
Maybe we are in the jobs-as-elevator-pitches era? Say enough to make them interested and fill-in details when they call you.
To answer your other questions. Mid-level programming would probably not be a good fit for me. A job has to be enough of an intellectual challenge to make it interesting. Without that people are just miserable. So, yeah, senior engineer or above is likely the right fit.
That said, not wanting to sit idle, I started a new self-funded tech business. It's a physical product. I did all of the engineering: electrical, mechanical, ARM firmware, desktop application, manufacturing, testing, etc. Sold the product, booked and delivered a first sale ($175K).
While that's good, I just can't take the kinds of risks I took back twenty years ago. I need to raise capital to make this go beyond this point. I am looking for additional sales as a way to keep incremental growth going. The VC landscape today seems difficult. Also, it feels like most investors are far more interested in pure software startups and, of course, a bunch of young founders rather than a single 60-year-old. So, again, I'm on my own.
I am not saying any of this to whine. You have to take the good, the bad and the ugly. That's life. And I am perfectly fine with it. Just need to figure out what's next.
Someone asked why I don't retire. I have seen way too many people rapidly deteriorate physically and mentally from the idleness retirement can bring. Not interested. If my original post conveys anything it should be that I don't really sit around doing nothing for very long. I don't do "idle" very well. Then there's the reality of a business failure in 2010 (the economic implosion from 2008 took us out) that really hurt. Which means I have to work. Other than my home and reasonable savings, we have no retirement accounts or pensions. It's interesting how people assume that everyone reaches 60 with 401k's and a path to idle retirement. Lots of people don't. I think I can say this is --sadly-- far more common among entrepreneurs.
I recently read an article about modern job application evaluation. The author said that if it takes more than 10 seconds to get a sense of who you are, your CV will get tossed.
That means one-page CV's with ten bullet points and large type (or something like that).
Maybe we are in the jobs-as-elevator-pitches era? Say enough to make them interested and fill-in details when they call you.
To answer your other questions. Mid-level programming would probably not be a good fit for me. A job has to be enough of an intellectual challenge to make it interesting. Without that people are just miserable. So, yeah, senior engineer or above is likely the right fit.
That said, not wanting to sit idle, I started a new self-funded tech business. It's a physical product. I did all of the engineering: electrical, mechanical, ARM firmware, desktop application, manufacturing, testing, etc. Sold the product, booked and delivered a first sale ($175K).
While that's good, I just can't take the kinds of risks I took back twenty years ago. I need to raise capital to make this go beyond this point. I am looking for additional sales as a way to keep incremental growth going. The VC landscape today seems difficult. Also, it feels like most investors are far more interested in pure software startups and, of course, a bunch of young founders rather than a single 60-year-old. So, again, I'm on my own.
I am not saying any of this to whine. You have to take the good, the bad and the ugly. That's life. And I am perfectly fine with it. Just need to figure out what's next.
Someone asked why I don't retire. I have seen way too many people rapidly deteriorate physically and mentally from the idleness retirement can bring. Not interested. If my original post conveys anything it should be that I don't really sit around doing nothing for very long. I don't do "idle" very well. Then there's the reality of a business failure in 2010 (the economic implosion from 2008 took us out) that really hurt. Which means I have to work. Other than my home and reasonable savings, we have no retirement accounts or pensions. It's interesting how people assume that everyone reaches 60 with 401k's and a path to idle retirement. Lots of people don't. I think I can say this is --sadly-- far more common among entrepreneurs.
You don't include all that in your resume do you?
I suggest you only include the most recent relevant parts "tailoring" your resume to the specific job.
If you do manage to get an interview, never say anything negative and don't talk much about the past or your experiences. Talk about what you have been doing within the last 1-3yrs max.
It is better to be excited about tech and curious and tinkering with stuff related to the skills they need in recent memory and show off thay side of you. Any hint of complaining will destroy your chances. If you got cancer and couldn't work for a few years, talk about how despite your serious illness you couldn't help but try to work on some remotely relevant project. Sorry for the extreme example, just trying to make a point.
People don't remember you, they remember how you made them feel. Make them feel good. Humans aren't rational.
I suggest you only include the most recent relevant parts "tailoring" your resume to the specific job.
If you do manage to get an interview, never say anything negative and don't talk much about the past or your experiences. Talk about what you have been doing within the last 1-3yrs max.
It is better to be excited about tech and curious and tinkering with stuff related to the skills they need in recent memory and show off thay side of you. Any hint of complaining will destroy your chances. If you got cancer and couldn't work for a few years, talk about how despite your serious illness you couldn't help but try to work on some remotely relevant project. Sorry for the extreme example, just trying to make a point.
People don't remember you, they remember how you made them feel. Make them feel good. Humans aren't rational.
My impression is that you know that there's nothing "wrong with you" and that the dynamics expressed by that recruiter in part 2 explain enough (to me at least) and indicate your own awareness that there's nothing wrong with you.
It sounds like you may need an outlet to vent, not necessarily "your frustrations", but maybe you need a way to outline or give a retrospective account of the past ~40 years so that you can come to terms/appreciate your journey thus far (which sounds very interesting).
Start a blog or a newsletter or something and tell your story. Respectfully, I think that it would be a great opportunity for you to "give back" to the new crop of 20-something, motivated self-learners out there. In general, I think readers in the fields that you have done work in can benefit from real accounts such as the ones I'm sure you have to share. I'd like to read more from you.
It sounds like you may need an outlet to vent, not necessarily "your frustrations", but maybe you need a way to outline or give a retrospective account of the past ~40 years so that you can come to terms/appreciate your journey thus far (which sounds very interesting).
Start a blog or a newsletter or something and tell your story. Respectfully, I think that it would be a great opportunity for you to "give back" to the new crop of 20-something, motivated self-learners out there. In general, I think readers in the fields that you have done work in can benefit from real accounts such as the ones I'm sure you have to share. I'd like to read more from you.
> It sounds like you may need an outlet to vent, not necessarily "your frustrations", but maybe you need a way to outline or give a retrospective account of the past ~40 years so that you can come to terms/appreciate your journey thus far (which sounds very interesting).
No, not really. I am that type of a person. My reason for posting on HN was to get feedback of all kinds, criticism mostly --because that's where the lessons come from. In other words, helping me understand what is wrong with me in terms of, perhaps, how I have been presenting myself and approached looking for work.
> Start a blog or a newsletter or something and tell your story. Respectfully, I think that it would be a great opportunity for you to "give back" to the new crop of 20-something, motivated self-learners out there. In general, I think readers in the fields that you have done work in can benefit from real accounts such as the ones I'm sure you have to share. I'd like to read more from you.
I was a mentor for our local high school robotics team (FRC) for many years (while my kids were in the team). I helped send kids to the top tech universities in the nation (including mine). That was definitely fulfilling.
Aside from that, today, I am pursuing a degree in CS with a focus on ML. Not learning much yet (waiting for higher level coursework, it's at the algorithms and data structures stage right now...which I can probably teach). I do take the time to help others though, and that's always fun.
No, not really. I am that type of a person. My reason for posting on HN was to get feedback of all kinds, criticism mostly --because that's where the lessons come from. In other words, helping me understand what is wrong with me in terms of, perhaps, how I have been presenting myself and approached looking for work.
> Start a blog or a newsletter or something and tell your story. Respectfully, I think that it would be a great opportunity for you to "give back" to the new crop of 20-something, motivated self-learners out there. In general, I think readers in the fields that you have done work in can benefit from real accounts such as the ones I'm sure you have to share. I'd like to read more from you.
I was a mentor for our local high school robotics team (FRC) for many years (while my kids were in the team). I helped send kids to the top tech universities in the nation (including mine). That was definitely fulfilling.
Aside from that, today, I am pursuing a degree in CS with a focus on ML. Not learning much yet (waiting for higher level coursework, it's at the algorithms and data structures stage right now...which I can probably teach). I do take the time to help others though, and that's always fun.
part 2...
I think it is beyond obvious I have not sat idle after having to drop out of engineering school in my mid 20's. The above isn't a list of things I touched superficially. Each of the above skills represents (and came from) having to learn in order to perform at different jobs or for specific projects. Starting and running my own tech company forced me to learn even more. It was self-funded, which means I had to do it all for a long time.
...so, why is it that I can count interviews from job applications in the last, say, ten years, with two hands?
About seven or eight years ago a recruiter opened-up to me when he sensed my frustration. What he told me rattled me to some extent. He said nobody would hire me and suggested entrepreneurship was my only path. The way he put it was:
"The owner/CEO of a small to medium company won't hire you because, given your experience, they will be afraid you will learn their industry and become a competitor. The manager at a medium to large company won't hire you because they will be afraid you'll take their job."
That has been in the back of my mind for years now. At the same time, I hear so many stories from people who send out hundreds of resume's and never get so much as a smoke signal back. While I do wonder "What's wrong with me?", I also ask myself whether the problem really centers about hiring practices today. You'd think many companies would jump at the opportunity to have someone like me contribute to their mission. Yet, nothing...
And there's the question of age discrimination, which is a real thing in tech.
I think it is beyond obvious I have not sat idle after having to drop out of engineering school in my mid 20's. The above isn't a list of things I touched superficially. Each of the above skills represents (and came from) having to learn in order to perform at different jobs or for specific projects. Starting and running my own tech company forced me to learn even more. It was self-funded, which means I had to do it all for a long time.
...so, why is it that I can count interviews from job applications in the last, say, ten years, with two hands?
About seven or eight years ago a recruiter opened-up to me when he sensed my frustration. What he told me rattled me to some extent. He said nobody would hire me and suggested entrepreneurship was my only path. The way he put it was:
"The owner/CEO of a small to medium company won't hire you because, given your experience, they will be afraid you will learn their industry and become a competitor. The manager at a medium to large company won't hire you because they will be afraid you'll take their job."
That has been in the back of my mind for years now. At the same time, I hear so many stories from people who send out hundreds of resume's and never get so much as a smoke signal back. While I do wonder "What's wrong with me?", I also ask myself whether the problem really centers about hiring practices today. You'd think many companies would jump at the opportunity to have someone like me contribute to their mission. Yet, nothing...
And there's the question of age discrimination, which is a real thing in tech.
Age discrimination definitely.
But also, your resume is to stuffy to be true. I don't believe for a second that you can have proficency at all these skills. That's just not possible. You may have cobbled things using these techs or worked with people who knew these things well, but you can't possibly be an expert at all these things.
Aim for an expert job. Find the skill you master most and look for the jobs who look for that. Look for jobs where being older is being better (Assembly, C++, for instance are technologies that younger people don't learn). Trim your resume to: "I am an expert at X, which I have done here here and there, I've also been doing some other stuff".
Don't fall for "CEOs/managers wont hire me because I am too good". That's bullshit agent talk to hide their mediocrity behind a veil of praise.
Good luck
But also, your resume is to stuffy to be true. I don't believe for a second that you can have proficency at all these skills. That's just not possible. You may have cobbled things using these techs or worked with people who knew these things well, but you can't possibly be an expert at all these things.
Aim for an expert job. Find the skill you master most and look for the jobs who look for that. Look for jobs where being older is being better (Assembly, C++, for instance are technologies that younger people don't learn). Trim your resume to: "I am an expert at X, which I have done here here and there, I've also been doing some other stuff".
Don't fall for "CEOs/managers wont hire me because I am too good". That's bullshit agent talk to hide their mediocrity behind a veil of praise.
Good luck
> I don't believe for a second that you can have proficency at all these skills. That's just not possible. You may have cobbled things using these techs or worked with people who knew these things well, but you can't possibly be an expert at all these things.
Thanks for your comment.
It's always interesting to me when "That's just not possible", or a similar comment, surfaces. Not much I can say other than, no, it's true. And, no, it isn't about cobbling things together and claiming the work of others.
There's nothing on that list that I could not do immediately or get back up to speed within, say, 30 days or less. For example, last time I used LISP or FORTH was probably in the mid 90's. When I did work with these languages, I built non-trivial applications and worked on them for years. Can I write a Forth application today? Well, no, not without getting back into it, which will take just a few weeks. It's like ridding a bike, you don't really forget.
> you can't possibly be an expert at all these things
Not what I am claiming at all. In fact, almost nobody is an expert at most of what they put on their resumes. I have a few areas of expertise that I would consider to be much deeper than the average engineer. And, in fact, those are the areas where I find consulting work most readily. If I had to describe myself in one sentence I would probably say something like: I can fully engineering just-about any product from scratch, no matter the technology or disciplines involved. Of course, there are boundaries, I am not about to claim I can design a nuclear reactor. We have to be reasonable. I've worked on everything from embedded to robotics, aircraft simulators and things that have gone into space. So, yeah, those skills are real and applied.
Like I said, I don't sit idle very well. Always learning.
Thanks for your comment.
It's always interesting to me when "That's just not possible", or a similar comment, surfaces. Not much I can say other than, no, it's true. And, no, it isn't about cobbling things together and claiming the work of others.
There's nothing on that list that I could not do immediately or get back up to speed within, say, 30 days or less. For example, last time I used LISP or FORTH was probably in the mid 90's. When I did work with these languages, I built non-trivial applications and worked on them for years. Can I write a Forth application today? Well, no, not without getting back into it, which will take just a few weeks. It's like ridding a bike, you don't really forget.
> you can't possibly be an expert at all these things
Not what I am claiming at all. In fact, almost nobody is an expert at most of what they put on their resumes. I have a few areas of expertise that I would consider to be much deeper than the average engineer. And, in fact, those are the areas where I find consulting work most readily. If I had to describe myself in one sentence I would probably say something like: I can fully engineering just-about any product from scratch, no matter the technology or disciplines involved. Of course, there are boundaries, I am not about to claim I can design a nuclear reactor. We have to be reasonable. I've worked on everything from embedded to robotics, aircraft simulators and things that have gone into space. So, yeah, those skills are real and applied.
Like I said, I don't sit idle very well. Always learning.
> I have a few areas of expertise that I would consider to be much deeper than the average engineer.
That’s what needs to stand out. For the rest, it’s better to talk about the things you built rather than the tech you used to build it.
Say: “I designed a smart thermostat from hardware to plastic injection”, and then if the guy asks what you used, brag about the tech, it’ll impress a lot more.
That’s what needs to stand out. For the rest, it’s better to talk about the things you built rather than the tech you used to build it.
Say: “I designed a smart thermostat from hardware to plastic injection”, and then if the guy asks what you used, brag about the tech, it’ll impress a lot more.
> Don't fall for "CEOs/managers wont hire me because I am too good". That's bullshit agent talk to hide their mediocrity behind a veil of praise.
Then dumb it down. Use 50% of your skills / experience. Pretend you don't know some of these things. Like if that's actually the truth it's quite easy to solve.
Then dumb it down. Use 50% of your skills / experience. Pretend you don't know some of these things. Like if that's actually the truth it's quite easy to solve.
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> "The owner/CEO of a small to medium company won't hire you because, given your experience, they will be afraid you will learn their industry and become a competitor. The manager at a medium to large company won't hire you because they will be afraid you'll take their job."
I'm mid 40s & in the same boat. Entrepreneurship probably is the only option. It is what it is.
I'm mid 40s & in the same boat. Entrepreneurship probably is the only option. It is what it is.
In my 50s I took a hatchet to my CV and reduced it to what was saleable. I also forgot to include anything older than about 15 years.
Nobody wants someone with all those skills. You want a job, not a commendation.
Nobody wants someone with all those skills. You want a job, not a commendation.
+1 this. Also, consider having a consultant look at your resume. Take their advice to heart.
I occasionally help my manager hire people, and if there's too much info on the resume, I don't know what YOU want to do. I don't want to hire someone that may be bored with this job.
I occasionally help my manager hire people, and if there's too much info on the resume, I don't know what YOU want to do. I don't want to hire someone that may be bored with this job.
> if there's too much info on the resume, I don't know what YOU want to do. I don't want to hire someone that may be bored with this job
That's good insight. Thanks.
That's good insight. Thanks.
I would have no idea where to put you. You’re not an individual contributor (probably?). You’re probably looking at executive track. CTO at a company that needs strategy around devices with embedded circuitry? Cofounder at a startup making a hardware play?
The problem is that if I were hiring for that role you’re not on the top of my list because you’re not coming right out of that role. You’ve hired right? As a hiring manager you want someone with fresh successes in the area you’re hiring for. The first five minutes of an interview cover recent accomplishments at the level you’re interviewing for.
Don’t focus on your degree. Figure out where you would contribute the most value and double down on that. Figure out how people hire CTOs and plug into that pipeline. You might need to sign on to a company circling the drain to get current CTO on your resume.
I had a friend who was CTO and the company was facing funding issues. He left and was unable to find someone who was both qualified and willing to take a job at a place where the stock grant was probably worthless. But that would be perfect for you because it gets your résumé refresh with a current cto job, heck, you might even find a place where your deep experience and skill can save the company.
You saw that spin builds on a raspberry pi 4? That’s not right. They could do better if they had someone like you. There’s all kinds of that going on.
The problem is that if I were hiring for that role you’re not on the top of my list because you’re not coming right out of that role. You’ve hired right? As a hiring manager you want someone with fresh successes in the area you’re hiring for. The first five minutes of an interview cover recent accomplishments at the level you’re interviewing for.
Don’t focus on your degree. Figure out where you would contribute the most value and double down on that. Figure out how people hire CTOs and plug into that pipeline. You might need to sign on to a company circling the drain to get current CTO on your resume.
I had a friend who was CTO and the company was facing funding issues. He left and was unable to find someone who was both qualified and willing to take a job at a place where the stock grant was probably worthless. But that would be perfect for you because it gets your résumé refresh with a current cto job, heck, you might even find a place where your deep experience and skill can save the company.
You saw that spin builds on a raspberry pi 4? That’s not right. They could do better if they had someone like you. There’s all kinds of that going on.
> You’ve hired right? As a hiring manager you want someone with fresh successes in the area you’re hiring for.
My approach has always been very different I guess. Likely because I have seen so many shifts in technology. As an example, when I was attending university for electrical engineering FPGA's didn't exist. I had to learn FPGA's years later (used PLD's and PAL's before that). The same is true of so many things.
When hiring engineers, I have always cared far more about how they think, how creative they can be and how well they can learn new technologies. To me that has always been far more important than getting someone who, as an example, has been driving Javascript for the last ten years, is an expert, yet could not make a shift to WASM if their life depended on it.
I'll give you a real-life example. I'm expert level with AutoCAD and Solidworks. I got a contract with an aerospace company. They used SiemensNX for their 3D CAD. I had to learn it and become capable enough to to do the job. It took me about two weeks to make a pretty solid transition. The software is different enough that you can't just jump into it, although, yes, skills I had with other tools helped. That's kind of the point, I am was making. Experience and flexibility to learn are valuable when combined.
Your comment exposes that I think of the hiring process differently than, perhaps, most, and that likely influences how and what I present to others when applying. In other words, what I see as a strength, to others, might come across as a weakness or just confusing.
Thanks.
My approach has always been very different I guess. Likely because I have seen so many shifts in technology. As an example, when I was attending university for electrical engineering FPGA's didn't exist. I had to learn FPGA's years later (used PLD's and PAL's before that). The same is true of so many things.
When hiring engineers, I have always cared far more about how they think, how creative they can be and how well they can learn new technologies. To me that has always been far more important than getting someone who, as an example, has been driving Javascript for the last ten years, is an expert, yet could not make a shift to WASM if their life depended on it.
I'll give you a real-life example. I'm expert level with AutoCAD and Solidworks. I got a contract with an aerospace company. They used SiemensNX for their 3D CAD. I had to learn it and become capable enough to to do the job. It took me about two weeks to make a pretty solid transition. The software is different enough that you can't just jump into it, although, yes, skills I had with other tools helped. That's kind of the point, I am was making. Experience and flexibility to learn are valuable when combined.
Your comment exposes that I think of the hiring process differently than, perhaps, most, and that likely influences how and what I present to others when applying. In other words, what I see as a strength, to others, might come across as a weakness or just confusing.
Thanks.
At 60 you are supposed to have a network of acquaintances and former colleagues to rely on. You broadcast that you are looking for a job and they reply with leads. But since you have to deal with recruiters like a junior developer you clearly don't have such a network. That indicates low likability to recruiters and is to them a red flag. They prefer someone in the happy median; stronger than average but not extreme in any regard. You are far from the median.
Context: I'm roughly half your age.
> What can I do?
Try to become a CTO of a small, really small or even startup company.
If you write your CV in a similar style as here, I'd suggest to rewrite it a bit. Don't focus on lists of technologies but rather on topics where you created value. Something like, oversaw a team of X people who developed Y product in Z years; funded and lead company with X employees which generated Y dollars of revenue...
Try to look from the perspective of the people who should hire you. For example, if you want to be hired as a CTO, your boss will be a board of directors (don't know if this is technically correct but you get the message). Those people care about someone who keeps the company running in terms of technology, who gets things done, and who can work with people. They don't care about assembler or Django skills specifically but your experience will be proof enough that you know about this.
> What can I do?
Try to become a CTO of a small, really small or even startup company.
If you write your CV in a similar style as here, I'd suggest to rewrite it a bit. Don't focus on lists of technologies but rather on topics where you created value. Something like, oversaw a team of X people who developed Y product in Z years; funded and lead company with X employees which generated Y dollars of revenue...
Try to look from the perspective of the people who should hire you. For example, if you want to be hired as a CTO, your boss will be a board of directors (don't know if this is technically correct but you get the message). Those people care about someone who keeps the company running in terms of technology, who gets things done, and who can work with people. They don't care about assembler or Django skills specifically but your experience will be proof enough that you know about this.
Team up with an agent. Like an actor has an agent. Not a recruiter. They find jobs for a group of clients that from time to time seek a deep specialism; you bill your time/work from your company.
I'm not in the US. They're a thing (certainly used to be, when I was there) in Europe and I imagine they must be in the US too.
I'm not in the US. They're a thing (certainly used to be, when I was there) in Europe and I imagine they must be in the US too.
Target your experience towards the roles you're applying for.
> SolidWorks. CAMWorks. FEA. Fusion 360. Siemens NX. AutoCAD. Parametric Design. Generative Design. Design for machining
If I was hiring for a web dev role and saw this I would just think you're not that suited to my specific role.
> SolidWorks. CAMWorks. FEA. Fusion 360. Siemens NX. AutoCAD. Parametric Design. Generative Design. Design for machining
If I was hiring for a web dev role and saw this I would just think you're not that suited to my specific role.
> If I was hiring for a web dev role and saw this I would just think you're not that suited to my specific role.
I agree with your point. Again, my post was not a job application, just a brain dump of skills learned and applied over the years.
I have applied to engineering manager positions where working with multidisciplinary teams was a requirement. This, I would have though, would be where everything I have done would be of value. Never got a response on any of those. I find this amazing, given that I have worn every hat in a typical tech product design and manufacturing pipeline, have had 30 or more engineers working under me and have manufactured millions of dollars in product. In that context, it is hard to understand why someone might not be curious enough to at least want to have a conversation.
I agree with your point. Again, my post was not a job application, just a brain dump of skills learned and applied over the years.
I have applied to engineering manager positions where working with multidisciplinary teams was a requirement. This, I would have though, would be where everything I have done would be of value. Never got a response on any of those. I find this amazing, given that I have worn every hat in a typical tech product design and manufacturing pipeline, have had 30 or more engineers working under me and have manufactured millions of dollars in product. In that context, it is hard to understand why someone might not be curious enough to at least want to have a conversation.
I'm 62. The job market is terrible right now. Especially for someone like you who is self-taught and has been self-employed for many years. Nobody cares about that. My advice is to do freelance consulting work and tutoring. Good luck
Yeah, I have a couple of consulting gigs what have kept me busy.
Use a deepfake to make yourself appear young and work remotely? Add a voice modulator?
Seriously, however, consulting seems like a good option. Don't mention anything that ages you, and just be a remote mercenary. Think digital nomad, working in Oman or something. If you're tied down to life in a specific place because of whatever reason (family etc.), no reason still not to consult remotely. I feel like your level of experience lends itself to building an elite consulting shop with employees. Why you asking for wage slavery anyways?
Seriously, however, consulting seems like a good option. Don't mention anything that ages you, and just be a remote mercenary. Think digital nomad, working in Oman or something. If you're tied down to life in a specific place because of whatever reason (family etc.), no reason still not to consult remotely. I feel like your level of experience lends itself to building an elite consulting shop with employees. Why you asking for wage slavery anyways?
Out of curiosity, is it possible for you to just retire? Depending on your country and your expenses, a long career as a software engineer might be able to afford a comfortable retirement at 60.
The opening line "I had to drop out of" frames your whole story with how much not "in control" you are. You are not making decisions, the decisions are being made for you. If you were in control, if you owned your decisions, you would write "I dropped out of [...] because [...]".
Ultimately you only control your own actions, and you can't control (or be responsible for) other people's actions.
> You are not making decisions, the decisions are being made for you.
In real life, you don't always get to make your own decisions...
In real life, you don't always get to make your own decisions...
Choose say 5 different roles you would like to work on, create 5 CVs that highlight at the very begining the skills and years of experience that match each role. The rest is appendix. Recruiters are busy, make their lifes and yours easier. I've had some telling me they almost skipped my application because the corresponding skills are deep buried in my CV.
This might be US-specific ageism issue. Did you consider moving to Europe? I would especially recommend eastern Europe, people value experience and abilities above everything here.
One thing that is missing from your CV is experience with linux system/embedded s/w, you would rarely have any device nowadays that does not include or interface linux in some way.
This article seems to have some me suggestions. https://gettingshotsup.com/p/jobs-where-former-founders-have...
I think connecting with a hardware startup would be a good option.
I think connecting with a hardware startup would be a good option.
Just include the experience relevant to the prospective job, scrap everything else. Focus more on the recent technologies, nobody cares that you worked on Forth decades back.
Think who you would recruit if you were the manager or CxO.
Think who you would recruit if you were the manager or CxO.
That is an extremely impressive resume and I commend you on a life well lived.
I was headed into HVACR when my mother had a stroke and my career path diverted... ended up studying psychology, but then later using my programming skills I'd taught myself when I was 12, and managed to land a career in web design, where I've been for the past decade plus.
I attempted to also apply to over 50 jobs... none actually resulted in an interview. Some required me to take a few further tests, but it led nowhere. My most promising avenue was driving across country for a company that delivered prestigous artwork to high end clients, but they wanted me to be fully dedicated to the job, while I wanted to be on call and/or work part-time, while doing my remote web design job. I'd asked if they could at least come close to my current salary, and even was ready to settle for $3 less than what I'd really wanted. They never did call back.
If there is anything to let you know that even though you know so much, have so much experience.... companies will still overlook you. You possibly face ageism the more you know too. I've had to dumb myself down a bit on the resume though I do keep my bragging rights for consecutively bringing in half a million year-after-year.
While the job market may have a high demand for engineers, the competition among ourselves, and then the weariness of companies towards AI and ChatGPT have not helped, and its just a very different world we live in where every company can be picky as much as they want. After all, from all the top tech companies... adding up those laid off/fired numbers... looking at about 100,000 or so people, and safe to say that about half of those people were considered to be "engineers", who are all polishing up that resume with tech company names on them and possibly applying to work for small startups.
As for qualifications... even brand name recognition probably gets you hired, like going to Harvard or Princeton had always done.
You said you are 60... max out unemployment as long as you can if you are currently receiving it, then start dipping into that 401k now to help subsidize your income. Use it wisely and sparingly. If you are a relatively healthy 60 year old, I suggest you do not retire until at least 66.4 years old, otherwise, you'll be giving up quite a bit of your social security check if you take an early retirement at 62. I know it's not something you want to read... but for the time being, instead of staying out of work, why not settle into a different job or line of work right now just to get more points into your social security?
I was headed into HVACR when my mother had a stroke and my career path diverted... ended up studying psychology, but then later using my programming skills I'd taught myself when I was 12, and managed to land a career in web design, where I've been for the past decade plus.
I attempted to also apply to over 50 jobs... none actually resulted in an interview. Some required me to take a few further tests, but it led nowhere. My most promising avenue was driving across country for a company that delivered prestigous artwork to high end clients, but they wanted me to be fully dedicated to the job, while I wanted to be on call and/or work part-time, while doing my remote web design job. I'd asked if they could at least come close to my current salary, and even was ready to settle for $3 less than what I'd really wanted. They never did call back.
If there is anything to let you know that even though you know so much, have so much experience.... companies will still overlook you. You possibly face ageism the more you know too. I've had to dumb myself down a bit on the resume though I do keep my bragging rights for consecutively bringing in half a million year-after-year.
While the job market may have a high demand for engineers, the competition among ourselves, and then the weariness of companies towards AI and ChatGPT have not helped, and its just a very different world we live in where every company can be picky as much as they want. After all, from all the top tech companies... adding up those laid off/fired numbers... looking at about 100,000 or so people, and safe to say that about half of those people were considered to be "engineers", who are all polishing up that resume with tech company names on them and possibly applying to work for small startups.
As for qualifications... even brand name recognition probably gets you hired, like going to Harvard or Princeton had always done.
You said you are 60... max out unemployment as long as you can if you are currently receiving it, then start dipping into that 401k now to help subsidize your income. Use it wisely and sparingly. If you are a relatively healthy 60 year old, I suggest you do not retire until at least 66.4 years old, otherwise, you'll be giving up quite a bit of your social security check if you take an early retirement at 62. I know it's not something you want to read... but for the time being, instead of staying out of work, why not settle into a different job or line of work right now just to get more points into your social security?
Your CV is how many pages? Instead of listing everything from assembler to JSON, maybe try to get it down to 1 (2 max)
You need to shave it down, there's too much, and honestly some things that are not relevant for some positions.
Obviously overqualified.
Nobody wants to hire someone who can make their job redundant next month.
Nobody wants to hire someone who can make their job redundant next month.
There have to be said , there is nothing wrong with you
I worked as an engineers in a couple of industries for about 20 years. Did well. I launched my own business, designing and manufacturing electronic products (hardware and software-based) for that industry. Ran that for about ten years. The last economic implosion took us out (2010-ish).
Finding a job has been impossible. I have survived through consulting here and there, nothing crazy. Let's put it this way, I am far better value than the shit consulting gigs I have landed.
What can I do?
Assembler (ARM on-down to 6502). C, C++. Forth. LISP. Objective-C. Python. Django. PHP. MySQL. HTML. CSS. JavaScript. jQuery. JSON. OO, procedural, functional. Good amount of CS theory. I am also half way towards a Bs in Computer Science right now (not really learning anything I don't already know yet).
FPGA. Embedded systems. Analog. Digital. Communications. Control Panels, User Interfaces. Power electronics: SMPS, Motor Control, LED control, etc. I2C, SPI, RS232, RS422, USB, Ethernet, etc. SDRAM, DDR2, DDR3 memory layout, interface and FPGA controller design. SRAM, FLASH. DVI, HDMI, LVDS interconnects. Digital Filter Design (FIR, IIR, etc.). Sensors: light, temperature, acceleration, magnetic, GPS, etc. Graphics and text LCD interfacing and control. High-power LED light sources. Impedance-controlled board design. Transmission lines. High-speed board design (GHz range). Clock Synthesis, VCO. Clock management and distribution. SMT and Through Hole. Prototyping, testing and test fixture design. DFT (Design for Testing). Altium, KiCad. Component selection and sourcing. Full project ownership.
Embedded Systems. RTOS. DSP. Video and image processing. Genetic Algorithms. State Machines. Communications protocols. Embedded Drivers. Desktop applications and utilities. Database-driven web applications. Application automation scripts and plugins (Excel, Photoshop, GIMP, etc.). Native iPhone, iPod, iPad application development. Web application development. Linux server deployment and management.
SolidWorks. CAMWorks. FEA. Fusion 360. Siemens NX. AutoCAD. Parametric Design. Generative Design. Design for machining (CNC milling, turning, EDM, etc.). Sheet metal. Injection molded plastics. Laser-cut components. Elastomeric components (i.e.: silicone keypads, etc.). Composites. CNC (Haas) and Manual (Bridgeport) milling machine operation and programming. Welding. Anodizing, Powder Coating, Paint, Silk Screen, Laser-Engraving and other finishes. FEA simulation (thermal, airflow, motion, static loading). Photorealistic rendering for visualization. DFM (Design for Manufacturing). Prototyping. Manufacturing. DFM.
CEO (of my own company). CTO. VP/Director of Engineering. Research & Development Engineering. Intellectual Property. Sales and Marketing. Managing multidisciplinary teams. Extremely comfortable with customer-facing interaction. Distribution channel building and management. Supply chain management. Customer and Reseller training. Trade show organization, management and execution (national and international). International business (channel building, training, tradeshows, etc.). Languages: English, Spanish (fluent in both).
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