What’s causing the rise of hoarding disorder? (2019)(daily.jstor.org)
daily.jstor.org
What’s causing the rise of hoarding disorder? (2019)
https://daily.jstor.org/whats-causing-the-rise-of-hoarding-disorder/
229 comments
Thanks for that. My Mum was almost the exact opposite to yours, but there seems to be no name for her ailment. She would move house once a year, and she would throw away a large part of everything we owned with every move. In the new house, we would often live amongst piles of cardboard boxes that never got around to being unpacked. While my Dad was alive, the books endured, but on his demise they got thrown out too. And obviously, our social circle did not survive frequent relocation.
Reading the first comment, then your reply - my impression is "The left and right tails of yet another bell curve of human behaviors...either tail of which (if less extreme) could be highly adaptive in many situations."
[Edit: fixed spelling.]
[Edit: fixed spelling.]
Do you mean adaptive or am I missing something ?
Yeah, I think he does mean adaptive. The point is that -- although the behaviors are certainly mal-adaptive in resource-rich stable countries -- they might actually be highly adaptive in other situations.
While alive what was your dads role in this annual process? Was he involved in the decision/move/lifestyle? I've never understood family dynamics where one parent is able to absolutely control the entire equation.
Ok, good question.
He was uncritically supportive, as my mother found fault with each new apartment or neighbourhood, making up reasons to move again. He also accepted her reasons for moving us to yet another school. And he obviously financed this very expensive habit, so there was never much left over for clothes or anything recreational.
The only condition was that his routine would remain undisturbed, and he wouldn't help in any way. So for example, he'd have all his breakfast gear at the ready in the new house, amongst the piles of boxes, from the first morning. And go to work as usual.
Other than that very large elephant in the room, they were great parents, no complaints.
He was uncritically supportive, as my mother found fault with each new apartment or neighbourhood, making up reasons to move again. He also accepted her reasons for moving us to yet another school. And he obviously financed this very expensive habit, so there was never much left over for clothes or anything recreational.
The only condition was that his routine would remain undisturbed, and he wouldn't help in any way. So for example, he'd have all his breakfast gear at the ready in the new house, amongst the piles of boxes, from the first morning. And go to work as usual.
Other than that very large elephant in the room, they were great parents, no complaints.
Thanks for sharing! Your account is disturbingly relatable. Even:
> The only condition was that his routine would remain undisturbed, and he wouldn't help in any way.
This is totally where I'm at. I can't keep up with the churn and refuse to facilitate it anymore. I started to suspect a disorder of some kind once moving countries altogether became the new goal, but outside of cults moving around to sever family/community ties I've never even heard of this being a thing before. I know I will kill myself if this started up again after going to that much trouble.
> The only condition was that his routine would remain undisturbed, and he wouldn't help in any way.
This is totally where I'm at. I can't keep up with the churn and refuse to facilitate it anymore. I started to suspect a disorder of some kind once moving countries altogether became the new goal, but outside of cults moving around to sever family/community ties I've never even heard of this being a thing before. I know I will kill myself if this started up again after going to that much trouble.
> I know I will kill myself if this started up again after going to that much trouble.
I don't know if this is hyperbole, or an actual assessment of the situation you're in, but... please don't. Get out if you have to, but don't get out that way.
I don't know if this is hyperbole, or an actual assessment of the situation you're in, but... please don't. Get out if you have to, but don't get out that way.
I appreciate your concern, but it's an assessment of a prospective situation I'd be putting myself in. I figure it's best to avoid it rather than test my resilience.
> The only condition was that his routine would remain undisturbed, and he wouldn't help in any way. So for example, he'd have all his breakfast gear at the ready in the new house, amongst the piles of boxes, from the first morning. And go to work as usual.
I shouldn't laugh, but I'm just picturing your dad sitting amongst the chaos casually eating his breakfast cereal totally unphased by it all.
I shouldn't laugh, but I'm just picturing your dad sitting amongst the chaos casually eating his breakfast cereal totally unphased by it all.
If the furniture was still piled up, there'd be a folding table and chair for him, in an open space between the piles of boxes.
He'd have his own milk and pot, coffee and filters, toaster, breadboard, breadknife, butterknife, teaspoon and mug. He was a very generous man, but these objects he didn't share.
The breakfast ritual took several hours, and involved a Swedish exercise routine near an open window, interspersed with reading the news and breakfast itself. The reading was not strictly passive, as it involved marking various articles with a thick red pencil, and then cutting them out, folding the cuttings, and saving a select few into his wallet for later reading.
He'd have his own milk and pot, coffee and filters, toaster, breadboard, breadknife, butterknife, teaspoon and mug. He was a very generous man, but these objects he didn't share.
The breakfast ritual took several hours, and involved a Swedish exercise routine near an open window, interspersed with reading the news and breakfast itself. The reading was not strictly passive, as it involved marking various articles with a thick red pencil, and then cutting them out, folding the cuttings, and saving a select few into his wallet for later reading.
Seems to have had some healthy habits and a positive mindset, so...
What led to his death?
What led to his death?
why would anyone want to dive into such a sensitive topic on a public forum? mind your manners.
This is PRECISELY the type of thing that should be discussed in anonymous public forums, with the consent of the person and with neutral questions not for the sake of shaming the person who’s talking.
Growth of issues in society should not be relegated to whispers in back rooms, the way baby boomers do it. That’s how you hamper scientific progress for psychology. How can people investigate an issue if it’s hidden from view? Bringing light to issues for society allows them to be solved as people understand it better.
Shame on you for perpetuating toxic behavior that shames people for looking for insight into our world.
Growth of issues in society should not be relegated to whispers in back rooms, the way baby boomers do it. That’s how you hamper scientific progress for psychology. How can people investigate an issue if it’s hidden from view? Bringing light to issues for society allows them to be solved as people understand it better.
Shame on you for perpetuating toxic behavior that shames people for looking for insight into our world.
What? Mind my manners? The GP offered their personal anecdote in a thread of vulnerable hoarding stories. I had parents who were equally complicit in their afflictions and I'm genuinely curious about unilateral situations.
[deleted]
Not a doctor, but is that a form of Obsessive-compulsive disorder?
> emotional attachment to inanimate objects (to which she ascribed feelings of their own)
This I have heard is a common element amongst hoarders and observed it in a hoarding family member as well. Throwing things out was like killing a pet in front of them.
This I have heard is a common element amongst hoarders and observed it in a hoarding family member as well. Throwing things out was like killing a pet in front of them.
I'm not a hoarder... I hope... but I definitely feel this. Whenever I have to throw something away, I have to explicitly ignore that little emotional twinge, as well as that voice inside my head that says, "... you can use this for something."
If that emotional twinge were too much stronger, or if that voice was too much louder, I'd be in real trouble.
If that emotional twinge were too much stronger, or if that voice was too much louder, I'd be in real trouble.
I know I was close to having a hoarding disorder because I feel this way. I get a new appliance or whatever, and I feel bad that what I'm replacing is going away. It's like losing a member of the team.
Anyways, I forced myself to get used to throwing stuff away because I saw where it was going and got freaked out. Maybe I would've been a really minor case had I not tried to intervene at all, if such cases exist.
Anyways, I forced myself to get used to throwing stuff away because I saw where it was going and got freaked out. Maybe I would've been a really minor case had I not tried to intervene at all, if such cases exist.
Not a hoarder but I do feel a little twinge in my heart if I see someone throw away plush toys or other things with faces. :-)
I get that feeling in thrift stores, where those items show up sometimes. I always wonder what the history was. Was that some child's favorite plush and how did it end up in a thrift shop, or was it overlooked and unwanted and discarded? Either way it's a twinge of sadness, yeah.
Even as an adult, I still have my few favorite stuffies from childhood. I'd never part with them (it's not hoarding, just one box), but I have no idea what happens to them when I pass on. Can't bear to dispose of them or leave instructions for that, but for anyone else to keep them they'd just take up space forever.
Even as an adult, I still have my few favorite stuffies from childhood. I'd never part with them (it's not hoarding, just one box), but I have no idea what happens to them when I pass on. Can't bear to dispose of them or leave instructions for that, but for anyone else to keep them they'd just take up space forever.
>Not a hoarder but I do feel a little twinge in my heart if I see someone throw away plush toys or other things with faces. :-)
Interesting, I get the same, but for electronics/anything mechanical. Also the longer I have some device the more attached I get to it.
Interesting, I get the same, but for electronics/anything mechanical. Also the longer I have some device the more attached I get to it.
I have computers from the 90s which I will almost certainly never touch again, but they played such a big role in my young life I can't seem to toss them.
I keep thinking I'll boot them back up one day and show my kids.
I keep thinking I'll boot them back up one day and show my kids.
Same. I think it's pretty normal to want to go back and visit the physical locations of our youth to relive the memories, but if the environments we grew up in were digital we lack a tangible memory to return to, so a substitute is holding onto the systems themselves.
Ever seen that Ikea commericial with the rejected lamp?
I love that ad. It was directed by Spike Jonze, which is very fitting.
"Many of you feel bad for this lamp. That is because you're crazy; it has no feelings! And the new one is much better."
Here's the 2002 original and 2018 redux: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecTUnfHyj8k
More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamp_(advertisement)
"Many of you feel bad for this lamp. That is because you're crazy; it has no feelings! And the new one is much better."
Here's the 2002 original and 2018 redux: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecTUnfHyj8k
More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamp_(advertisement)
It seems that that is appropriate. We ought to have some attachment, but also be able to rationalize and supersede emotions in order to qualify some things and then be able to say, this has little utility for me, it's time to move on. With an absence or suspension of emotion we could just become consumers who consume and dispose like a swarm of locusts.
[deleted]
I nominate your post for this years Nobel prize in literature. That's a pretty epic description of your mom's situation.
Not sure why the downvotes. It was not sarcastic.
Comparing a few paragraphs of HN comment to the Nobel prize in literature is just bizarre. I'm not surprised people assumed it must be sarcastic. Or if you put that aside, then it seems to disparage the Nobel prize. It's just such a hyperbolic claim without any rhetorical purpose and doesn't make any sense. I'm happy the commenter was so moved though...
The Nobel prize self disparaged when they gave the Peace one to a guy that later went to bomb seven countries: https://theintercept.com/2014/09/23/nobel-peace-prize-fact-d...
Long, long before that, when they gave it to a guy who intentionally prolonged the Vietnam War and ordered the bombing of civilians in a country not even involved in the war. https://12ft.io/proxy?&q=https%3A%2F%2Ftheintercept.com%2F20...
[deleted]
The flavor of Reddit in the humor. “Epic.”
Would it be more HN appropriate had he said "your writing helped me grok your mom's disorder?"
Genuinely, yes, I think that would have been better understood written that way here.
It's a tad insensitive, and I just plain disagree.
I know you're "not supposed" to comment on downvotes but I found your comment useful -- the comment was fine, and still grey, so I upvoted it.
It is true that some earnest comments can innocently be read as sarcastic.
It is true that some earnest comments can innocently be read as sarcastic.
> totally absent executive function, emotional attachment to inanimate objects, and a desire to have a stockpile from which to provide
Fuck me. I have all 3 of those warning signs. At least the emotional attachment isn't strong for most things and can be shaken with a well-placed "Will you realistically ever get around to that?"
Fuck me. I have all 3 of those warning signs. At least the emotional attachment isn't strong for most things and can be shaken with a well-placed "Will you realistically ever get around to that?"
I've known someone close who is affected their whole life. I'm talking extreme hoarding, cramming junk into any space available.
It led me to spend a lot of time considering what causes their behavior.
Not only do they hoard, but the process of hoarding also inflicts psychological damage against their close family.
I think it is a combination of self delusion and obsessive control.
Self delusion: The hoarder tends to believe each item they have kept has value or will be valuable someday. Almost as if for each item kept, it is the equivalent of having an unclaimed lottery ticket that will win eventually. Now, try convincing someone to throw away a lottery ticket before the date of the draw.
The interesting part is the hoarder would not sell the item, even if it was found to be very valuable (most 99.9% is junk). It is about the items perceived value.
Strangely I've seen many instances of hoarders have something of real value only stashed amongst a heap of junk and not stored appropriately (damaging the item in the process through neglect over time)
Control: This aspect is about controlling the situation and those around them. They are not interested in anyone else have a say in the matter.
There is a complete lack of empathy toward those affected by the consequences of hoarding (family etc)
The hoarders I've met tend to be very intelligent and manipulative (and verbally abusive) if they suspect someone is going to try impress change upon them. (A situation they perceive to not be in control)
It led me to spend a lot of time considering what causes their behavior.
Not only do they hoard, but the process of hoarding also inflicts psychological damage against their close family.
I think it is a combination of self delusion and obsessive control.
Self delusion: The hoarder tends to believe each item they have kept has value or will be valuable someday. Almost as if for each item kept, it is the equivalent of having an unclaimed lottery ticket that will win eventually. Now, try convincing someone to throw away a lottery ticket before the date of the draw.
The interesting part is the hoarder would not sell the item, even if it was found to be very valuable (most 99.9% is junk). It is about the items perceived value.
Strangely I've seen many instances of hoarders have something of real value only stashed amongst a heap of junk and not stored appropriately (damaging the item in the process through neglect over time)
Control: This aspect is about controlling the situation and those around them. They are not interested in anyone else have a say in the matter.
There is a complete lack of empathy toward those affected by the consequences of hoarding (family etc)
The hoarders I've met tend to be very intelligent and manipulative (and verbally abusive) if they suspect someone is going to try impress change upon them. (A situation they perceive to not be in control)
I'm bordering on it. But many reasons cause it not just one.
I'm a typical IT pack-rat with cables, old PCs, laptops, many old parts. Hard drives are a risk since I don't want to toss due to not know what is on it (Bitcoin?) or have my personal data stolen, or just something I may miss copying from it.
My Dad died so much of his stuff is now essentially junk. But to me it's sentimental even things that I have no need for like his shoes, his clothes. My Mom tossed a lot of it out practically the day after his funeral. He has piles of tools, paint, gloves, coveralls.
Recycling rules. The local company makes it very hard for people to get rid of items. Much of it means you need a car to take it and drop it off. When there you enter a large building and some guy points to a pile and you have to drag it there. Anything big like wood has to be less than four feet in length and less than 40 pounds. Any elderly or those without a car or even a truck in cases like old mattresses are out of luck.
Just age and lack of stamina too or mentally not wanting to do the work of sorting through it. Mu Mom is nearly 80 and doing "The Big Cleanout" as older people do when they are nearing that time in life. But she tosses or gives away things at random without asking a family member if they want it.
There can be many layers to hoarding if it is that or just too much stuff or just being lazy I'm not sure where the line is.
I'm a typical IT pack-rat with cables, old PCs, laptops, many old parts. Hard drives are a risk since I don't want to toss due to not know what is on it (Bitcoin?) or have my personal data stolen, or just something I may miss copying from it.
My Dad died so much of his stuff is now essentially junk. But to me it's sentimental even things that I have no need for like his shoes, his clothes. My Mom tossed a lot of it out practically the day after his funeral. He has piles of tools, paint, gloves, coveralls.
Recycling rules. The local company makes it very hard for people to get rid of items. Much of it means you need a car to take it and drop it off. When there you enter a large building and some guy points to a pile and you have to drag it there. Anything big like wood has to be less than four feet in length and less than 40 pounds. Any elderly or those without a car or even a truck in cases like old mattresses are out of luck.
Just age and lack of stamina too or mentally not wanting to do the work of sorting through it. Mu Mom is nearly 80 and doing "The Big Cleanout" as older people do when they are nearing that time in life. But she tosses or gives away things at random without asking a family member if they want it.
There can be many layers to hoarding if it is that or just too much stuff or just being lazy I'm not sure where the line is.
In Europe, and I mean literally anywhere in it, renting a van to move, or even just throwing out big useless garbage is a normal thing. You pay a bit but win much more (space, freedom etc). Having to do this additional step should not be good enough reason to no throw something out.
Its all a burden, on your body but much more on your mind. I understand that it brings back memories, but you shouldn't remember given person by keeping their hoard. And that 1 in 100 items that is actually useful doesn't change any of it.
I've seen it done countless times, last time few months ago my parents were cleaning whole apartment after grandparents died. We each picked few small items to keep, and literally everything else went to dumpster. So liberating.
Good rule of thumb for anything, anywhere, anybody - if you can buy it with a reasonable sum, item is worthless long term and should be no burden to you. Cherish those things that are not replaceable - photos, gifts handcrafted for you. The rest, whether you have it or not doesn't change anything long term in life. Thus is largely meaningless for your happiness. Thus it can go anytime, no big deal.
Its all a burden, on your body but much more on your mind. I understand that it brings back memories, but you shouldn't remember given person by keeping their hoard. And that 1 in 100 items that is actually useful doesn't change any of it.
I've seen it done countless times, last time few months ago my parents were cleaning whole apartment after grandparents died. We each picked few small items to keep, and literally everything else went to dumpster. So liberating.
Good rule of thumb for anything, anywhere, anybody - if you can buy it with a reasonable sum, item is worthless long term and should be no burden to you. Cherish those things that are not replaceable - photos, gifts handcrafted for you. The rest, whether you have it or not doesn't change anything long term in life. Thus is largely meaningless for your happiness. Thus it can go anytime, no big deal.
A few things I've learned (mostly) as I've become less of a packrat than I once was.
-- You just need to get into a mood sometimes where you go to your attic, garage, or whatever and get rid of the old computers and stuff you're never going to do anything with. Yes, there's some nerdy kid who might want that old laptop but I don't know who they are and I'm not going to waste a lot of time finding out.
-- Try not to let things get to the point where even contemplating doing some sorting and winnowing is so painful that you just lie down until the feeling goes away.
-- Digitize as much as you can. OK, you're still something of a digital packrat, especially without good metadata, but at least it doesn't take up space.
-- I've found leaving some larger objects out by the road with a free sign can be pretty effective.
At least where I live, there are junk removal services but that presupposes being organized enough to have a big pile that can be taken away some day.
ADDED: It's almost certainly true that people in the US, especially outside of urban cores, do tend to live in larger homes so it can be very tempting to just hang onto stuff rather than going through the work of sorting and disposing.
-- You just need to get into a mood sometimes where you go to your attic, garage, or whatever and get rid of the old computers and stuff you're never going to do anything with. Yes, there's some nerdy kid who might want that old laptop but I don't know who they are and I'm not going to waste a lot of time finding out.
-- Try not to let things get to the point where even contemplating doing some sorting and winnowing is so painful that you just lie down until the feeling goes away.
-- Digitize as much as you can. OK, you're still something of a digital packrat, especially without good metadata, but at least it doesn't take up space.
-- I've found leaving some larger objects out by the road with a free sign can be pretty effective.
At least where I live, there are junk removal services but that presupposes being organized enough to have a big pile that can be taken away some day.
ADDED: It's almost certainly true that people in the US, especially outside of urban cores, do tend to live in larger homes so it can be very tempting to just hang onto stuff rather than going through the work of sorting and disposing.
>In Europe, and I mean literally anywhere in it, renting a van to move, or even just throwing out big useless garbage is a normal thing.
It doesn't matter how convenient it is to rent a van, when neither you, nor the people inside your social circle, know how to actually drive a van. I've had a regular car driver's license for decades. An EV van is a whole different beast, as I found out the hard way while helping a friend move between apartments.
It doesn't matter how convenient it is to rent a van, when neither you, nor the people inside your social circle, know how to actually drive a van. I've had a regular car driver's license for decades. An EV van is a whole different beast, as I found out the hard way while helping a friend move between apartments.
I don't understand. There's nothing special or difficult about driving a regular van or moving truck. I've never had any special training and I just went and did it when necessary since I was 16. We're not talking about a commercial heavy truck here.
I assume you live in the US. In Europe, streets are usually narrower, parking spots even more so, in urban areas there will be more pedestrians crossing the road randomly, and many people don't even possess a driver's license in the first place, or don't own a car. My original comment was just to point out that getting rid of clutter isn't as easy as "just take a van and dump the clutter in a landfill."
Yes, just make sure to take corners wider than one would in a car.
The U-Haul vans are made to be easy to drive for regular drivers. I haven't had any trouble with them.
For example, they have big side mirrors, so you have an excellent view of where the back corners are.
For example, they have big side mirrors, so you have an excellent view of where the back corners are.
> Hard drives are a risk since I don't want to toss due to not know what is on it (Bitcoin?) or have my personal data stolen, or just something I may miss copying from it.
Today you can buy a 20T drive for under $300. You can copy all your old drives to it, and then get rid of the old drives. As for stolen data, you can:
1. put it on a drill press and run a 3/8 drill through the platter
2. put your safety glasses on and give it a mighty blow from a sledgehammer
I suppose the NSA, at great expense and effort, might still be able to retrieve a few bytes from it, but even they aren't that desperate for your copy of Oregon Trail.
BTW, I'm a hoarder myself and understand the problem.
Today you can buy a 20T drive for under $300. You can copy all your old drives to it, and then get rid of the old drives. As for stolen data, you can:
1. put it on a drill press and run a 3/8 drill through the platter
2. put your safety glasses on and give it a mighty blow from a sledgehammer
I suppose the NSA, at great expense and effort, might still be able to retrieve a few bytes from it, but even they aren't that desperate for your copy of Oregon Trail.
BTW, I'm a hoarder myself and understand the problem.
I recommend disassembling hard disks and keeping the magnets, they're super useful to have to capture loose screws and the like. Glue one to the end of a stick or telescoping pointer and you have a way to retrieve magnetic things that fall behind furniture.
You could also literally wipe your data by using a little sandpaper on the platters if you really wanted to.
You could also literally wipe your data by using a little sandpaper on the platters if you really wanted to.
Is there a way to reliably scrub the drives to make sure they're reusable? I know storage is cheap but it's destroying the drive really the only way to ensure data integrity?
I'm a big fan of recycling old electronics wherever possible. Would the cost of compute to virtually destroy the data on the drive so it can be safely reused as storage exceed the cost of physically destroying the drive and then recycling the raw materials?
I know for some cases true destruction is the best way to mitigate data theft in this case but... That's a bit heavy handed for an 80% use case, innit?
Edit: personally I always check what's on my old drives before decomming them but I think I'm an outlier here
I'm a big fan of recycling old electronics wherever possible. Would the cost of compute to virtually destroy the data on the drive so it can be safely reused as storage exceed the cost of physically destroying the drive and then recycling the raw materials?
I know for some cases true destruction is the best way to mitigate data theft in this case but... That's a bit heavy handed for an 80% use case, innit?
Edit: personally I always check what's on my old drives before decomming them but I think I'm an outlier here
Just overwriting once with all zeroes (or anything else) is enough; for modern drives (where “modern” means “last 25 years”). It’s basically impossible to recover data after that.
That's what I figured- I've never actually tested it though because I don't have any spare drives sitting around anymore.
One of these days though I'll get around to zeroing out a drive and then running Autopsy on it for shiggles just to see what comes back up. Should be a fun experience!
One of these days though I'll get around to zeroing out a drive and then running Autopsy on it for shiggles just to see what comes back up. Should be a fun experience!
> or anything else
I recommend overwriting with an endless loop of the freeway scene from "Solaris".
I recommend overwriting with an endless loop of the freeway scene from "Solaris".
i would have gone with meatspin or ytmnd but to each their own
>1. put it on a drill press and run a 3/8 drill through the platter
I briefly worked IT for a federal police agency and that is what they did.
I don't think I'll do that though plus I don't have a metal bit sharp enough. I'd research how to sharpen a metal bit on a grinder. Get sidetracked and look up how to harden metal bits. Then metallurgy and different metal and what exactly is hardening how does it change the crystal structure. Is metal actually a crystal? and so on....
I briefly worked IT for a federal police agency and that is what they did.
I don't think I'll do that though plus I don't have a metal bit sharp enough. I'd research how to sharpen a metal bit on a grinder. Get sidetracked and look up how to harden metal bits. Then metallurgy and different metal and what exactly is hardening how does it change the crystal structure. Is metal actually a crystal? and so on....
> I don't think I'll do that though plus I don't have a metal bit sharp enough.
You don't need a special bit for this. Most of a hard drive is made of soft aluminum; a standard drill bit will go right through it.
You don't need a special bit for this. Most of a hard drive is made of soft aluminum; a standard drill bit will go right through it.
Dissolving in acid seems like the safest/most overkill option: <https://youtu.be/L0bcNm1gfpU>.
> Much of it means you need a car to take it and drop it off. When there you enter a large building and some guy points to a pile and you have to drag it there. Anything big like wood has to be less than four feet in length and less than 40 pounds. Any elderly or those without a car or even a truck in cases like old mattresses are out of luck.
You can get rid of all of that real quick by dragging it to the curb and leaving it near a fire hydrant (don't block it though). Call it in yourself and say that someone left an item that is blocking the fire hydrant.
Yes, it's illegal and dishonest, but not enough is done to help people actually get rid of this crap. There's no accountability in the other direction. You call Waste Management for a large item pickup and you're lucky if they ever show, or when they do they leave without picking it up because of more arbitrary rules (too heavy, too bulky, too many pee stains, whatever). Yet leaving it near a fire hydrant ensures someone shows up with whatever it takes to load the item and leave.
You can get rid of all of that real quick by dragging it to the curb and leaving it near a fire hydrant (don't block it though). Call it in yourself and say that someone left an item that is blocking the fire hydrant.
Yes, it's illegal and dishonest, but not enough is done to help people actually get rid of this crap. There's no accountability in the other direction. You call Waste Management for a large item pickup and you're lucky if they ever show, or when they do they leave without picking it up because of more arbitrary rules (too heavy, too bulky, too many pee stains, whatever). Yet leaving it near a fire hydrant ensures someone shows up with whatever it takes to load the item and leave.
It's unfortunate that you blame Waste Management, a private company that is simply doing what they are paid to do (or not doing what they aren't paid to do). If you are expecting them to do something that you or your city hasn't paid them to do, how is that possibly right of you?
> If you are expecting them to do something that you or your city hasn't paid them to do, how is that possibly right of you?
It is a paid service, hence my complaint-- they bill you after pickup. To get them to pick it up, you have to leave it on the curb, where you remain responsible for it. When they fail to pick it up as scheduled, you eventually get fined by the city or the HOA for dumping-- and you still have to deal with it somehow, like lugging it all back into your house.
This is the sort of situation you don't win (all risk, no reward), so there's no point in playing by the rules. The city makes it WM's problem. WM makes it your problem. So make it the city's problem again and stop them from passing the buck. I'm not saying it's right, only that it's a solution.
It is a paid service, hence my complaint-- they bill you after pickup. To get them to pick it up, you have to leave it on the curb, where you remain responsible for it. When they fail to pick it up as scheduled, you eventually get fined by the city or the HOA for dumping-- and you still have to deal with it somehow, like lugging it all back into your house.
This is the sort of situation you don't win (all risk, no reward), so there's no point in playing by the rules. The city makes it WM's problem. WM makes it your problem. So make it the city's problem again and stop them from passing the buck. I'm not saying it's right, only that it's a solution.
This is insightful. My father died 2 1/2 years ago, leaving my siblings and me with 6 houses and 3 commercial properties, all full--basement to ceiling--with junk (except one of the commercial properties, which was rented). "They are not interested in anyone else have [sic] a say in the matter," is exactly right. My dad wouldn't even have a conversation about it. He didn't get angry or anything, he just passively refused to engage. It's a gigantic mess for us to clean up now.
It was coupled, for my dad, with extreme frugality. He seemingly willfully deprived himself (and his family) of any fun or comfort by acquiring cheap versions of everything, or rigging up odd simulacrums of things, like the whole-house "air conditioner" he made from a cleaning bucket and some coffee cans. He bought a boat, then put such an underpowered motor on it that it was a joke. We had water skis, but they were rotted and just sat sadly against the wall, unusable.
Oh, my time's up? See you next week, doctor.
It was coupled, for my dad, with extreme frugality. He seemingly willfully deprived himself (and his family) of any fun or comfort by acquiring cheap versions of everything, or rigging up odd simulacrums of things, like the whole-house "air conditioner" he made from a cleaning bucket and some coffee cans. He bought a boat, then put such an underpowered motor on it that it was a joke. We had water skis, but they were rotted and just sat sadly against the wall, unusable.
Oh, my time's up? See you next week, doctor.
A few years before dad died, I flew up to help him "clean up some stuff." I did make some progress against the poison ivy in the back yard, but he wouldn't let me in the house and, in the end, we took two phone books to the recycling center.
Amusingly, this is exactly something that happened to me (cleaning the yard and overgrown trees then not allowed in the house)
> whole-house "air conditioner" he made from a cleaning bucket and some coffee cans
That sounds kind of cool.
But yeah, I'd still be pissed if my dad left me a mess like this to clean up. The property is nice and all, but a lot of it may need to get torn down if hoarding caused any structural damage (it can, houses aren't built to be filled to the brim with stuff), and that's not cheap work to get done up front. Probably not that easy to sell if you decide not to clean up the messes either.
That sounds kind of cool.
But yeah, I'd still be pissed if my dad left me a mess like this to clean up. The property is nice and all, but a lot of it may need to get torn down if hoarding caused any structural damage (it can, houses aren't built to be filled to the brim with stuff), and that's not cheap work to get done up front. Probably not that easy to sell if you decide not to clean up the messes either.
I know some people with similar stories. The frugality ends up being a cause for purchasing too much cheap stuff, with the hopes that "the next" will be as good as something top-shelf. Or it's stuff for their DIY project. The reality is that they don't need any of those things, it's just aspirational. Throwing them away kills the aspiration.
I know some quasi-hoarders who are similar, too: I know a person who has 30 guitars but they're so cheap and badly maintained that they're probably less worth than a high-end one. And the "next guitar" they buy is only good for a couple days.
I know some quasi-hoarders who are similar, too: I know a person who has 30 guitars but they're so cheap and badly maintained that they're probably less worth than a high-end one. And the "next guitar" they buy is only good for a couple days.
Oh, boats and hoarders are a bad combination.
My buddy's dad moved his boat from the water to his driveway to do a bit of work on it. Over the course of a decade, it went from "we can probably sell this for $15k" to "we can hopefully still get $5k for the engines" to "we gotta pay somebody to haul this away now".
My buddy's dad moved his boat from the water to his driveway to do a bit of work on it. Over the course of a decade, it went from "we can probably sell this for $15k" to "we can hopefully still get $5k for the engines" to "we gotta pay somebody to haul this away now".
Dad had 6-8 boats of various descriptions, but one part of the description of each was, "unusable." He also collected outboard motors, which sat on stands in the musty cottage basement. Never thought to combine the two, I guess.
My friend's grandfather ran a marine business, so had many engines and accessories in stock. After he died they left his shop untouched for a couple decades. At that point, they had grown a sentimental attachment to those things even though it was just "inventory"; not the grandfather's prized possensions or anything.
So yeah, they got lots of old engines lying around on display now. And a box of compasses and other crap.
So yeah, they got lots of old engines lying around on display now. And a box of compasses and other crap.
This is interesting. So your dad was both incredibly wealthy (9 houses in total, boat, etc) yet oppressively frugal?
Where did his money come from?
Where did his money come from?
Well, not incredibly wealthy by American standards. Working man. No college. Worked at an oil refinery in the Toledo, Ohio area. But he was so frugal that he accumulated stuff, including real estate, throughout his life, and was the beneficiary of a great economy, overall, in the last 70 years. He wound up with a decent nest egg, which amused him greatly.
I’m curious how old your friend is.
My own experience with several people has all involved older folks and this line from the article caught my attention:
> Childhood poverty, interestingly enough, does not seem to be connected with hoarding.
The folks I know who have been affected by this did not experience childhood poverty but rather their parents all survived the Great Depression. Generally they’ve been born in the late ‘30s, ‘40s and early ‘50s and from the stories they tell about growing up, a lot of their behaviours seem to be based on their parents’ behaviours that seem to have sprung out of young adult extreme poverty in the 1930s.
My own experience with several people has all involved older folks and this line from the article caught my attention:
> Childhood poverty, interestingly enough, does not seem to be connected with hoarding.
The folks I know who have been affected by this did not experience childhood poverty but rather their parents all survived the Great Depression. Generally they’ve been born in the late ‘30s, ‘40s and early ‘50s and from the stories they tell about growing up, a lot of their behaviours seem to be based on their parents’ behaviours that seem to have sprung out of young adult extreme poverty in the 1930s.
> young adult extreme poverty of the 1930’s.
Sounds about right. All my grandparents were young adults during that time frame, and my family keeps a lot of stuff around. Not clinical hoarding disorder level amounts of stuff, but quite a bit more than anyone else I know. I honestly think that it makes sense to keep a fair amount of “supplies” around so that you can do what you need to with what you have, rather than having to buy new stuff.
But I also struggle to adapt to (what I consider to be disgusting) present day consumerism, where most things are disposable in economic terms. I prefer to spend my money and time fixing nice things than replacing mediocre things.
Sounds about right. All my grandparents were young adults during that time frame, and my family keeps a lot of stuff around. Not clinical hoarding disorder level amounts of stuff, but quite a bit more than anyone else I know. I honestly think that it makes sense to keep a fair amount of “supplies” around so that you can do what you need to with what you have, rather than having to buy new stuff.
But I also struggle to adapt to (what I consider to be disgusting) present day consumerism, where most things are disposable in economic terms. I prefer to spend my money and time fixing nice things than replacing mediocre things.
Yes this is a factor with the particular person I know.
Although I don't think the depression era or poverty as the only answer.
I see the grandchild exhibit similar behaviors. There is an awareness of the problem but a disconnect in the brain to organise physical space. It is easier to cram objects (squirrel) than tidy up. And a resistance to tidy or organise physical space.
Although I don't think the depression era or poverty as the only answer.
I see the grandchild exhibit similar behaviors. There is an awareness of the problem but a disconnect in the brain to organise physical space. It is easier to cram objects (squirrel) than tidy up. And a resistance to tidy or organise physical space.
Definitely agree it's not the only answer. As far as the grandchild goes, that's where epigenetics and generational trauma can play a very interesting part/confounding factor. There could be a straight up heritable trait that causes this, or a genetic+environment mix, or even just a straight environmental influence.
I'm fortunate that most of the people I know who have trouble with this are capable of somewhat keeping it in check, although there are certainly some garages/basements in my extended and in-law families that are going to be an absolute nightmare to deal with down the road. At least for the folks who live on farms, it has occasionally come in handy; while a ton of it is just straight up junk, they do seem to have a pretty good mental model of where things are even though it isn't really organized and can often dig up very old obscure parts for equipment (farming or electronics) relatively quickly.
I'm fortunate that most of the people I know who have trouble with this are capable of somewhat keeping it in check, although there are certainly some garages/basements in my extended and in-law families that are going to be an absolute nightmare to deal with down the road. At least for the folks who live on farms, it has occasionally come in handy; while a ton of it is just straight up junk, they do seem to have a pretty good mental model of where things are even though it isn't really organized and can often dig up very old obscure parts for equipment (farming or electronics) relatively quickly.
I’ve had a similar experience with someone who is close and was a hoarder. Hoarding can cause distress for loved ones both from the impact of simply having too much stuff but also the impacts of living with someone who has a mental illness. In my case the person passed away a few years ago and so it is less directly pressing.
I finally understood that hoarding is a breakdown in the error monitoring circuits of the brain. Error monitoring is the feeling that you would get if you almost throw your passport or wedding ring in the trash. Hoarders have been found to be more creative in being able to see alternate uses for everyday objects and also to see more emotional connection to objects than people without the illness.
For me it was important to realize that hoarders motivations aren’t different than mine, just stronger and in other scenarios the difference would likely have been helpful.
In an age of abundance the amount of packaging produced is enough to manifest clinically significant hoarding cases which wouldn’t have been recognized in the past. Think of people whose houses are piled up with old newspapers, magazines and empty cereal boxes. In most cases however clinically significant hoarding cases also require a concurrent issue with acquisition of material goods. Often this tends to fall more towards the traditional OCD behaviors where a premonition or feeling of dread can only be mitigated through a purchase.
Addressing hoarding in these cases requires both addressing the OCD behaviors and the problems with the error monitoring circuit. OCD is difficult to treat and there are no treatments that I’m aware of for misfires in the error monitoring circuits of the brain. That assumes there are no other concurrent issues such as financial pressures, physical disability or depression.
Society collectively displays some hoarding like behaviors with collective misfires in our error monitoring behaviors. We tend to attach more significance to objects we spend a lot of time with which creates an interesting scenario for companies like Apple. While companies like Kellogg’s can produce thousands of pounds of packaging which gets tossed without a thought we require (demand) to Apple that they carefully recycle our tiny but hopelessly outdated device lest they pile up in our houses due to our faulty error monitoring circuits.
I finally understood that hoarding is a breakdown in the error monitoring circuits of the brain. Error monitoring is the feeling that you would get if you almost throw your passport or wedding ring in the trash. Hoarders have been found to be more creative in being able to see alternate uses for everyday objects and also to see more emotional connection to objects than people without the illness.
For me it was important to realize that hoarders motivations aren’t different than mine, just stronger and in other scenarios the difference would likely have been helpful.
In an age of abundance the amount of packaging produced is enough to manifest clinically significant hoarding cases which wouldn’t have been recognized in the past. Think of people whose houses are piled up with old newspapers, magazines and empty cereal boxes. In most cases however clinically significant hoarding cases also require a concurrent issue with acquisition of material goods. Often this tends to fall more towards the traditional OCD behaviors where a premonition or feeling of dread can only be mitigated through a purchase.
Addressing hoarding in these cases requires both addressing the OCD behaviors and the problems with the error monitoring circuit. OCD is difficult to treat and there are no treatments that I’m aware of for misfires in the error monitoring circuits of the brain. That assumes there are no other concurrent issues such as financial pressures, physical disability or depression.
Society collectively displays some hoarding like behaviors with collective misfires in our error monitoring behaviors. We tend to attach more significance to objects we spend a lot of time with which creates an interesting scenario for companies like Apple. While companies like Kellogg’s can produce thousands of pounds of packaging which gets tossed without a thought we require (demand) to Apple that they carefully recycle our tiny but hopelessly outdated device lest they pile up in our houses due to our faulty error monitoring circuits.
very intelligent and manipulative (and verbally abusive) if they suspect someone is going to try impress change upon them
This, and a lot of what you outline in your comment, reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_demand_avoidance
This, and a lot of what you outline in your comment, reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_demand_avoidance
I've often consider autism or adhd spectrum to be an underlying possibility. I hadn't come across PDA before, thanks for sharing.
> There is a complete lack of empathy toward those affected by the consequences of hoarding (family etc)
> The hoarders I've met tend to be very intelligent and manipulative (and verbally abusive) if they suspect someone is going to try impress change upon them. (A situation they perceive to not be in control).
I'm sorry, but this is just a horrible way to characterize a group of people with clear mental health issues. The reason extreme hoarders are extreme hoarders is probably because their drive to hoard stuff is stronger than literally every other emotion they have, including any empathy they have for those affected. Maybe the hoarder you know is manipulative and has low empathy, but the hoarder I knew was very empathetic and not a manipulative person. She had a ton of shame about it and refused to talk about it or address it.
> The hoarders I've met tend to be very intelligent and manipulative (and verbally abusive) if they suspect someone is going to try impress change upon them. (A situation they perceive to not be in control).
I'm sorry, but this is just a horrible way to characterize a group of people with clear mental health issues. The reason extreme hoarders are extreme hoarders is probably because their drive to hoard stuff is stronger than literally every other emotion they have, including any empathy they have for those affected. Maybe the hoarder you know is manipulative and has low empathy, but the hoarder I knew was very empathetic and not a manipulative person. She had a ton of shame about it and refused to talk about it or address it.
That's fair, I'm not saying it's their daily persona. It is what happens when family try to intervene. I agree it may not be the same for every individual
Hoarding does have extremes and a multitude of rationalizations. I have several hoarders (I am the oddball thank god) in my family and the rationalizations are across the board from the “saver of past relics” to “the gatherer of all matter” to “the engineer hoarder of tools and hardware”. At the core, they do seem to be related to a sense of insecurity either about oneself or about the stuff being “wasted” and them being the “rescuer”.
If we were to judge by the historical standards of human life, to the intuitive human brain, it all seems wasted. Everything was scarcer back then. A cereal box? Don't waste it, you don't know when your handmade clay bowl will crack. (Not an exactly apt example, but I think you got the point.)
As an adult child of alcohol and drug addicted parents, I can say that the interplay of empathy and anger for a parent with a destructive mental illness is a pretty complicated and personal thing.
> The hoarder tends to believe each item they have kept has value or will be valuable someday.
It makes the most sense to me to look at this from a slightly different angle.
Most things have value. What hoarders can't seem to grasp is that each item they own also reduces the value of every item they own by a small amount. Every item that someone owns is an item that they have to store, organize, clean, etc.
So, those "junk" items aren't worthless per se. They're just not worth enough to balance out the cost of keeping them, at least for most people.
It makes the most sense to me to look at this from a slightly different angle.
Most things have value. What hoarders can't seem to grasp is that each item they own also reduces the value of every item they own by a small amount. Every item that someone owns is an item that they have to store, organize, clean, etc.
So, those "junk" items aren't worthless per se. They're just not worth enough to balance out the cost of keeping them, at least for most people.
> Every item that someone owns is an item that they have to store, organize, clean, etc.
This right here is the crux of what defines hoarding, at least to me - when that work isn't being done.
I do many physical hobbies / DIY. So the characterization that keeping anything you don't have an immediate use for as hoarding doesn't ring true - some times you really will need that 1x2ft scrap of drywall in the future, or those bits of lumber or exact valued resistor/capacitor/etc. Or wanting to get all the materials for a project in order and ready to go even though you might not do it for a few months, which then turns into even longer.
But the stereotype of extreme hoarding with food wrappers and animals crapping in the piles doesn't ring true either. Because hoarding can exist long before that type of squalor, and long before the DSM would make a positive diagnosis.
So to me it's about whether one is doing the effort to organize/clean/use the stuff. It's ultimately about whether that complexity is being managed or being brushed aside. Like the part in the article about hoarders being more familiar with ad-hoc organization rather than categorization. That's a necessary skill, but it also creates a precarious situation that can fall apart when things change and that information gets flushed.
This right here is the crux of what defines hoarding, at least to me - when that work isn't being done.
I do many physical hobbies / DIY. So the characterization that keeping anything you don't have an immediate use for as hoarding doesn't ring true - some times you really will need that 1x2ft scrap of drywall in the future, or those bits of lumber or exact valued resistor/capacitor/etc. Or wanting to get all the materials for a project in order and ready to go even though you might not do it for a few months, which then turns into even longer.
But the stereotype of extreme hoarding with food wrappers and animals crapping in the piles doesn't ring true either. Because hoarding can exist long before that type of squalor, and long before the DSM would make a positive diagnosis.
So to me it's about whether one is doing the effort to organize/clean/use the stuff. It's ultimately about whether that complexity is being managed or being brushed aside. Like the part in the article about hoarders being more familiar with ad-hoc organization rather than categorization. That's a necessary skill, but it also creates a precarious situation that can fall apart when things change and that information gets flushed.
As the illness progresses, the hoarder will hoard anything. Even trash that is arguably a hazard and burden.
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Hoarding is a mental disorder where the individual makes extreme connections between items, memories, and emotions.
Getting rid of items is like throwing away something specials d apart of oneself.
The rise of this mental disorder tracks the rise of all mental disorders in the west (eg. >60% of our communities girls HS volleyball team last year were on antidepressants). There are known microcauses for this: isolation, not enough physical activity, little vitamin D/Sun exposure, family structure, etc.
Getting rid of items is like throwing away something specials d apart of oneself.
The rise of this mental disorder tracks the rise of all mental disorders in the west (eg. >60% of our communities girls HS volleyball team last year were on antidepressants). There are known microcauses for this: isolation, not enough physical activity, little vitamin D/Sun exposure, family structure, etc.
I think it's funny that the majority of causes you list (isolation, not enough physical activity, little vitamin D/Sun exposure) wouldn't apply at all to the group you cite as having widespread issues (girls HS volleyball team).
As someone who struggles with mental health issues, and frequently not getting enough of many of those things mentioned, I've worked to try to do better about some of that; and it can sometimes help a bit. But the whole "get more exercise, touch grass, see a friend" isn't the magic cure-all that some people make it out to be; and worrying about doing enough of it can become a stressor all on its own. Additionally, seeing them as the solution can sometimes lead to harmful obsessive behaviors of trying too hard to seek them out, at the expense of other things like work or family time.
Anyhow, not saying that getting more of these things is bad, or that they have no effect. Just that a lot of times discussions of mental health online feel very reductive. More exercise, more outdoor time, more time with friends, more antidepressants; each of these could potentially have positive effects, but they can also have negative effects, or be unobtainable, or there could be one of myriad other issues that need to be addressed, or there could be situations, either mental, physical, or social that are so broken that they can never really be addressed, just lived with or in some cases not even that.
As someone who struggles with mental health issues, and frequently not getting enough of many of those things mentioned, I've worked to try to do better about some of that; and it can sometimes help a bit. But the whole "get more exercise, touch grass, see a friend" isn't the magic cure-all that some people make it out to be; and worrying about doing enough of it can become a stressor all on its own. Additionally, seeing them as the solution can sometimes lead to harmful obsessive behaviors of trying too hard to seek them out, at the expense of other things like work or family time.
Anyhow, not saying that getting more of these things is bad, or that they have no effect. Just that a lot of times discussions of mental health online feel very reductive. More exercise, more outdoor time, more time with friends, more antidepressants; each of these could potentially have positive effects, but they can also have negative effects, or be unobtainable, or there could be one of myriad other issues that need to be addressed, or there could be situations, either mental, physical, or social that are so broken that they can never really be addressed, just lived with or in some cases not even that.
I think for people under 30, reducing social media exposure would help a lot (in general, for all ages - but many of those under 30 seem to live and breathe social media esp. girls/women)
Or maybe the knowledge that a climate and economic crisis is imminent and the political reality is that it will go unsolved, ruining their lives before they have had a chance to live them?
We've had "imminent" crises going as far back to when I was a kid in the 70's, and long before that, too. Nuclear war, pollution, stagflation, the ozone hole, savings and loan crisis, smog, acid rain, AIDS, terrorism, and probably more all happened during my lifetime. Each of them had varying levels of doomerism, but I don't think anyone really believed their lives were pre-ruined from any of them. Not sure why this generation thinks their lives are.
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60% of the girl's volleyball team is not experiencing many (or likely any) of those microcauses.
Yea what teenager feels isolated especially during lock down /s
True. Some of them watched a TikTok for example of someone who got sad after they broke up with their boyfriend and then took antidepressants to “calm” them down. These drugs are overly prescribed along with a cavalier attitude about using them amongst the public.
> Hoarding is a mental disorder where the individual makes extreme connections between items, memories, and emotions.
What about the type of hoarders who collect stuff for monetary reasons? I don't think there are memories involved, and I don't see a direct emotional connection. It's just people who believe that someday this stuff is valuable, or the other side, it's something they might need some day, for repairing or building, or something like that.
What about the type of hoarders who collect stuff for monetary reasons? I don't think there are memories involved, and I don't see a direct emotional connection. It's just people who believe that someday this stuff is valuable, or the other side, it's something they might need some day, for repairing or building, or something like that.
I don't think thats largely the case here. Otherwise you would be able to reason with such people, which is definitely not the case here. I'd go with that extreme emotional attachment and some form of autism / other disorder.
Lets not forget non-trivial part of population is on spectrum of one/multiple psychiatric disorders, but say 2 out of 10 doesn't get you to mental asylum, rather on lifelong medicines if you get diagnosed properly, but most people do not get that luxury. So they often end up a massive pain in the A for basically everybody around them.
Lets not forget non-trivial part of population is on spectrum of one/multiple psychiatric disorders, but say 2 out of 10 doesn't get you to mental asylum, rather on lifelong medicines if you get diagnosed properly, but most people do not get that luxury. So they often end up a massive pain in the A for basically everybody around them.
Do some people not value mementos at all? Is that not abnormal too? Seems like a sliding scale to me.
> Hoarding is a mental disorder where the individual makes extreme connections between items, memories, and emotions.
Decades of advertising might have something to do with this. Plus the fact that hoarding money, houses, cars... is highly praised.
Decades of advertising might have something to do with this. Plus the fact that hoarding money, houses, cars... is highly praised.
>> Plus the fact that hoarding money, houses, cars... is highly praised
This is not at all like the type of hoarding that's described here. You're referencing essentially greed, which we've been told is good at least since the early 80's
This is not at all like the type of hoarding that's described here. You're referencing essentially greed, which we've been told is good at least since the early 80's
It is actually very similar.
>The rise of this mental disorder tracks the rise of all mental disorders in the west (eg. >60% of our communities girls HS volleyball team last year were on antidepressants). There are known microcauses for this
Yes, and the root cause for all of them is the increase in, and the inability to handle, oxidative stress:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3964745/
Yes, and the root cause for all of them is the increase in, and the inability to handle, oxidative stress:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3964745/
I am skeptical about that being the root cause. Competitive endurance athletes undergo a high level of oxidative stress during daily aerobic workouts. This doesn't seem to trigger mental disorders.
Who says endurance Athletes don’t experience greater problems with mood disorders? Because they do.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10051630/#:~:te....
There’s likely a U-shaped curve regarding the benefits of exercise and mental health.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10051630/#:~:te....
There’s likely a U-shaped curve regarding the benefits of exercise and mental health.
My mom left me a home packed to the gills. She was the most empathetic person I ever knew, to the point of paralysis. She purchased things to be gifts for family, to show she had value. So yes, if someone is hoarding to try and have value, and you tell them they have zero value, they will get defensive. It might be you that is controlling and lacking empathy. And I don't think it's obsessive control they have but rather obsessive lack of control so they purchase these things as protection/armor.
If you had empathy, you would see that attacking their hoarding is both devaluing them and trying to remove what they perceive as safety so yeah, they are going to respond as such. If I pushed hard for you to give away your bank account and that you are crazy for having it you would probably push back in the same way. Maybe approach from empathy instead of judgement and you'd get a better response.
If you had empathy, you would see that attacking their hoarding is both devaluing them and trying to remove what they perceive as safety so yeah, they are going to respond as such. If I pushed hard for you to give away your bank account and that you are crazy for having it you would probably push back in the same way. Maybe approach from empathy instead of judgement and you'd get a better response.
It's easy to judge without knowing the situation.
I can assure you, I am empathetic as are the rest of the family. The person in my life (my father) is not forced to do anything and they continue to do as they please. They don't want help, so we do not pressure them needlessly.
I believe people have their habits and we must accept them to an extent. Unfortunately sometimes ones way of living can negatively affect others close to them. My mother is the one who had to live with this. She is the one most deserving of sympathy.
I did write my original comment in a distant and judgmental tone. It was to write what I had observed through experience about the behaviors related to hoarding.
It may sound negative but, my father is my father. I don't dislike him.
I can assure you, I am empathetic as are the rest of the family. The person in my life (my father) is not forced to do anything and they continue to do as they please. They don't want help, so we do not pressure them needlessly.
I believe people have their habits and we must accept them to an extent. Unfortunately sometimes ones way of living can negatively affect others close to them. My mother is the one who had to live with this. She is the one most deserving of sympathy.
I did write my original comment in a distant and judgmental tone. It was to write what I had observed through experience about the behaviors related to hoarding.
It may sound negative but, my father is my father. I don't dislike him.
I suspect it varies by case, and expands if you try to analyze too much and wade into what may be rationalization after the fact. People don't always plan their actions logically, but come up with (sometimes plausible) explanations as part of coping.
I think some (much?) hoarding is driven by a basic emotional loop that seems adjacent to agorophobia. Acting on an impulse to gather things around and live in the resulting "warren" seems to give them comfort.
In hoarders in my family, I've also seen something like the "self delusion" you mentioned. They fail to acknowledge the time-varying value of most things, decay processes, negative externalities, or sometimes even opportunity costs. They almost seem to think they can avoid realizing a loss by never disposing of an item. Kind of a HODL (hold on for dear life) investment plan applied to material objects.
I think some (much?) hoarding is driven by a basic emotional loop that seems adjacent to agorophobia. Acting on an impulse to gather things around and live in the resulting "warren" seems to give them comfort.
In hoarders in my family, I've also seen something like the "self delusion" you mentioned. They fail to acknowledge the time-varying value of most things, decay processes, negative externalities, or sometimes even opportunity costs. They almost seem to think they can avoid realizing a loss by never disposing of an item. Kind of a HODL (hold on for dear life) investment plan applied to material objects.
I'm not sure if they are innately manipulative or abusive, or if it's more like a "cornered animal" thing where the claws only come out when they are backed into a corner.
I've seen some genuinely nice people who only turn vicious when their hoard is threatened, but I ascribe that reaction to their illness.
I've seen some genuinely nice people who only turn vicious when their hoard is threatened, but I ascribe that reaction to their illness.
Most low to mid level hoarders I know come from a background of some form of scarcity. They usually grew up poor or were there during war or something like the great depression. Their paranoia that they need to cling to every item they come to own because they might need it and never be able to obtain(afford) it again is less crazy in that light. Less commonly I see people with unusually strong attachments to memories an item invokes, or a desire to treat an inherited item with religious reverence to honor the deceased. Upper-middle and above class people who were always able to buy whatever they needed/wanted rarely seem afflicted by hoarding.
I'm someone who has had a great variety in my financial security and that will likely continue into the future. This has included great scarcity (my state's computer system errors have just lost me healthcare and food help for the foreseeable future and I will be living on free food for the next month+ which is going to suck).
My tendencies towards keeping things definitely revolve around 'I can't get this again if I need it'. Especially since if I need something and reach out for it, I am likely to be shamed by society for 'not planning ahead'/'not making better decisions'/etc. The margin of error is so small at the lowest ends of society that making any permanent decision is costly. It is rational to avoid doing so.
My tendencies towards keeping things definitely revolve around 'I can't get this again if I need it'. Especially since if I need something and reach out for it, I am likely to be shamed by society for 'not planning ahead'/'not making better decisions'/etc. The margin of error is so small at the lowest ends of society that making any permanent decision is costly. It is rational to avoid doing so.
My tendency is 'i may need it'. Even though logically I know 100% for sure I will never need it. I have been curbing my tendency by not buying things. I put it into digital hording. Which fortunately fits on a couple of HDs. Which reminds me I have more boxes of cloths from the late 80s to get rid of (hope I have the will to do it). What helped me one day was I was hording bottle caps that had points on them. I had put off cashing them in. Then I realized they were expired. I was able to throw the whole lot of them away. It was SO liberating. I was free of that junk. I was literally running around the house going "IM FREE". I have been very careful to only buy/take things that have a shelf or box to go into. I do not buy more shelves or boxes to put more junk in, and rule #1 nothing on the floor or tables. I think I got this from my mother. That house has many closets full of stuff that has not seen the light of day in decades. Floor to ceiling full. The rest of the house is okayish. But it is one disaster away from full on hoarding. the gp comment about the burden of it rings very true to me.
Yup. I know someone whose father was the son of refugees who lost everything and whose mother's family lost everything the Great Depression.
By the time this person was born, both parents had good income, but they continue to live as if in poverty (extreme frugality, never replace anything if they can spend 10x more time/money to repair, dumpster diving, etc).
The parents are low-level hoarders. The child is even more so.
It seems born of the trauma and uncertainty.
By the time this person was born, both parents had good income, but they continue to live as if in poverty (extreme frugality, never replace anything if they can spend 10x more time/money to repair, dumpster diving, etc).
The parents are low-level hoarders. The child is even more so.
It seems born of the trauma and uncertainty.
My mother is an extreme hoarder and can confirm also obsessed with controlling others. In fact, she seems to have a severe lack of empathy for people, even her family, while having tons of empathy for her belongings.
Hoarding seems to have a large overlap of traits with narcissists.
Hoarding seems to have a large overlap of traits with narcissists.
My aunt was a hoarder and I'm currently emptying her apartment. Its really weird how you can find random ads and newspapers from 30 years ago, handful of egg shells and family photographs in same plastic bag, right by exterior door. Whole apartment has been like that, trash and important items in same bag, stuffed behind cabinet.
She always said that she can't throw anything away because there might be something important in there, now I'm thinking that she did it on purpose.
She always said that she can't throw anything away because there might be something important in there, now I'm thinking that she did it on purpose.
I think the brains ability to organize items becomes overwhelmed. hence you get this strange situation like you described.
They don't seem to be completely aware to the problem of decay (water damage, perishable item mixed with valuable item etc).
Perhaps their brain remembers the 'original state' of the item and glosses over the decay happening in front of their eyes.
They don't seem to be completely aware to the problem of decay (water damage, perishable item mixed with valuable item etc).
Perhaps their brain remembers the 'original state' of the item and glosses over the decay happening in front of their eyes.
It will sort itself out, once the tribe breaks camp and moves to greener pastures? Dad has the same emotional attachment to things.. It's all connected to some wild future plans that never gonna happen..
Tangential to a serious hoarding disorder, but relevant to the audience: I think it would be interesting to have a discussion here about tech-specific hoarding. Personally, every time I dig through a box in the garage and find that cable that I don't need to buy and wait for, the volume goes up on the voice saying not to ditch the next thing. Or when I use an old laptop to play with a new distro or set up a server.
But, there is a cost to all of that stuff. Monetarily because I have paid for moving and storing all those boxes over the years, but more so the mental tax of "I should really use these 5 extra laptops that aren't worth enough to bother ebaying but I can't just throw them out because someone else (that I don't know and have no easy way of getting in contact with) could use them and darnit I spent lots of money on this crap."
The best solution for me was taking the time to reduce all of those boxes of cables/parts/etc down to one well organized box. It was actually much easier than I thought. So much of it was old tech that I would never realistically use like SCSI/parallel/serial cables, etc. For everything I kept, I grouped like items together and put them into ziplock bags so I could easily see inside. Now, instead of dreading the box dig, I find it gratifying. The laptops and old phones are still a problem and I keep thinking that I'd run into some techie kid who would use them, but I think that techie kids these days are into different stuff...
But, there is a cost to all of that stuff. Monetarily because I have paid for moving and storing all those boxes over the years, but more so the mental tax of "I should really use these 5 extra laptops that aren't worth enough to bother ebaying but I can't just throw them out because someone else (that I don't know and have no easy way of getting in contact with) could use them and darnit I spent lots of money on this crap."
The best solution for me was taking the time to reduce all of those boxes of cables/parts/etc down to one well organized box. It was actually much easier than I thought. So much of it was old tech that I would never realistically use like SCSI/parallel/serial cables, etc. For everything I kept, I grouped like items together and put them into ziplock bags so I could easily see inside. Now, instead of dreading the box dig, I find it gratifying. The laptops and old phones are still a problem and I keep thinking that I'd run into some techie kid who would use them, but I think that techie kids these days are into different stuff...
I can totally relate to this. I used to have shelves of old parts that I might maybe use again someday. It seems like I'm able to change my own behavior very abruptly by finding the right perspective. I convinced myself to clean it all up by thinking about opportunity cost. It costs money and time to store things. How much does it cost me to store this? Monetarily, psychologically, socially? If my rent is $2/sqft/month, then this box that takes up 2sqft costs $4/month to store here. It would cost $80 to replace the most expensive item in this box and there's a 10% chance I'll ever actually use any of it again so this box has an expected value of $8. After 2 months, I'll have paid more to store this stuff than it's worth to me. And am I embarrassed to bring company into this room because it's such a mess? Are there other things I could do with this room if it weren't crammed and cluttered? Could I live in a less expensive apartment with fewer rooms and save more money and retire earlier if I didn't keep this stuff? Do I have to spend x hr/year maintaining this stuff to keep it in functioning condition? My free time is worth at least $x/hr. I'll take it to goodwill and I'll check goodwill first if I need it again in the future. Now if I could just get my partner to start thinking similarly and stop spending $300/month to rent a storage facility to hold dead grandma's worthless furniture that no one wants ...
Hoarded items are in one or more of three categories: 1) tech, 2) aesthetic, 3)trash
Everything man-made is tech (books, old SCSI cables)
Things you find in nature are aesthetic (shells, rocks, driftwood)
The challenge knowing which of the first to should be moved into the third. Everyone fall somewhere on the hoarding spectrum. I am guilty of keeping things that may some day be useful. I have a pretty good track record of being correct. For my tech, I do a purge every few years or when I move. If I've not found something useful in over four years, and it doesn't have great sentimental or historical value, then it goes into the trash.
My opinions anyway
Everything man-made is tech (books, old SCSI cables)
Things you find in nature are aesthetic (shells, rocks, driftwood)
The challenge knowing which of the first to should be moved into the third. Everyone fall somewhere on the hoarding spectrum. I am guilty of keeping things that may some day be useful. I have a pretty good track record of being correct. For my tech, I do a purge every few years or when I move. If I've not found something useful in over four years, and it doesn't have great sentimental or historical value, then it goes into the trash.
My opinions anyway
Everyone fall somewhere on the hoarding spectrum. I am guilty of keeping things that may some day be useful.
I mean, sure, but there's a pretty stark difference between "oops, this didn't turn out to be useful after all" and someone who keeps hundreds of dirty plastic takeout containers "just in case". Maybe to some extent it's a spectrum, but it feels like there's a hard line between someone who keeps things that legitimately might be useful vs someone who is literally delusional.
I mean, sure, but there's a pretty stark difference between "oops, this didn't turn out to be useful after all" and someone who keeps hundreds of dirty plastic takeout containers "just in case". Maybe to some extent it's a spectrum, but it feels like there's a hard line between someone who keeps things that legitimately might be useful vs someone who is literally delusional.
That's keeping trash, and is a mental disorder with a specific name: "trash hoarder". Not to be confused with rational/healthy hoarding ;)
It is a spectrum and there is a line. When it begins to negatively impact your life or functioning in life.
Technically you could have a pile of dirty takeout containers and be healthy, but it is just extremely unlikely because a series of things need to happen to arrive at that outcome and the distinction is almost always in the process not the results.
Technically you could have a pile of dirty takeout containers and be healthy, but it is just extremely unlikely because a series of things need to happen to arrive at that outcome and the distinction is almost always in the process not the results.
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The problem with your description is using a dysfunctional name for a healthy/rational process.
It's not “hoarding” until it crosses the dysfunctional line. This is the problem with using technical terms in nontechincal discussions.
It's not “hoarding” until it crosses the dysfunctional line. This is the problem with using technical terms in nontechincal discussions.
Nah, it really is super contextual.
My parents own an epic amount of mostly useless junk. But they also have an enormous house with a storage room in their basement the size of my entire condo. Actually, bigger. The useless stuff is all in the storage room. It is neatly organized into bins. None of it is gross or unclean, but most of it is of questionable utility. The storage room has no other possible use; their home is already way bigger than what they need. There's no reason to keep all the crap, but there's also no good reason to throw it out before they die either (they'll pay pros to schlep it all out either way.)
If I kept that amount of crap in my condo it would be straight up hoarding, since there wouldn't be space in my condo to move around! But for them, it's roughly proportional to the one closet in my condo that has old cords, some left over paint, sentimental books from grad school that don't fit on my shelf, my wife's wedding dress, etc.
If I kept that amount of crap in my cabin it would be a that weird mid-point where it's not quite hoarding but also taking up a slightly unreasonable amount of space.
Based on decades of sampling, Manhattan "fucking gross throw your old shit away" very much is midwestern "totally normal amount of stuff in basement storage". The price of storage does matter and we're talking about a range from $1/sqft to $2,000/sqft. Storing extra wrapping paper you got on sale at $2k/sqft is insane. Storing them at $1/sqft saves you a 20 minute drive to the store during holidays for the next few years.
My parents own an epic amount of mostly useless junk. But they also have an enormous house with a storage room in their basement the size of my entire condo. Actually, bigger. The useless stuff is all in the storage room. It is neatly organized into bins. None of it is gross or unclean, but most of it is of questionable utility. The storage room has no other possible use; their home is already way bigger than what they need. There's no reason to keep all the crap, but there's also no good reason to throw it out before they die either (they'll pay pros to schlep it all out either way.)
If I kept that amount of crap in my condo it would be straight up hoarding, since there wouldn't be space in my condo to move around! But for them, it's roughly proportional to the one closet in my condo that has old cords, some left over paint, sentimental books from grad school that don't fit on my shelf, my wife's wedding dress, etc.
If I kept that amount of crap in my cabin it would be a that weird mid-point where it's not quite hoarding but also taking up a slightly unreasonable amount of space.
Based on decades of sampling, Manhattan "fucking gross throw your old shit away" very much is midwestern "totally normal amount of stuff in basement storage". The price of storage does matter and we're talking about a range from $1/sqft to $2,000/sqft. Storing extra wrapping paper you got on sale at $2k/sqft is insane. Storing them at $1/sqft saves you a 20 minute drive to the store during holidays for the next few years.
What technical term? "hoard" is just a word. It becomes a technical term if you say "compulsive hoarder" or "garbage hoarder". Those are symptoms of a condition such as ADHD or OCD.
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How did you organize the new box? Did you use a specific type of organizer? I have a few scattered boxes of cables, wires, and parts that I need to reduce into one "usable" container. Thanks!
I made piles of similar stuff (e.g. network cables, connectors, crimper and tester), got a bunch of quart and gallon ziplocks tossed the stuff in them and put 'em in the box. Easy peasy.
No need for an organizer for me as I go into the box maybe 2x a year so it is easy enough to pull out ziplocks until I get to the right one.
No need for an organizer for me as I go into the box maybe 2x a year so it is easy enough to pull out ziplocks until I get to the right one.
The value of your hoard is zero if you can't find the item you need, so organization is key.
My recent scheme (I organized during Covid): everything goes in covered Sterilite transparent containers with labels from a brother printer. The containers are cheap, stackable, somewhat waterproof and I find it helps that you can see a bit inside them. There are many sizes to choose from, I tend to use the 6 qt. and 16 qt. sizes the most.
They do crack if you drop them, but this is mitigated by the price.
My recent scheme (I organized during Covid): everything goes in covered Sterilite transparent containers with labels from a brother printer. The containers are cheap, stackable, somewhat waterproof and I find it helps that you can see a bit inside them. There are many sizes to choose from, I tend to use the 6 qt. and 16 qt. sizes the most.
They do crack if you drop them, but this is mitigated by the price.
Oh yes, I have shelves of Sterilite boxes. I keep several empty boxes at all times so I can reorganize and categorize new items. I label all of them with the Brother label maker.
The key is that occasionally I go through and toss obsolete items. Recent casualties: all Micro USB, when the last Micro USB device died. RCA audio patch cables: all the speakers are smart now and don’t hook up to old-school receivers. Nearly all telephone wires. USB chargers less than 5 watts. Miscellaneous video cables, like VGA, DVI, composite video, component video.
The key is that occasionally I go through and toss obsolete items. Recent casualties: all Micro USB, when the last Micro USB device died. RCA audio patch cables: all the speakers are smart now and don’t hook up to old-school receivers. Nearly all telephone wires. USB chargers less than 5 watts. Miscellaneous video cables, like VGA, DVI, composite video, component video.
Similar here. A couple big bins for bulky things that are still useful, like my previous router that I sometimes need to unbork the current router during bad firmware updates. Small Sterilite boxes that are well-labeled so that anyone in my house can find things and put them back in the right place if they find a stray geegaw on the coffee table. We also have a lost-and-found bowl on a countertop for things we don't have the time to file immediately.
For me, identifying obsolescence is secondary to deduplication. It seems like USB cables breed if not monitored. Thinning the herd keeps things fitting in the small boxes.
It was all easier once I abandoned my lifelong dream of saving the day with a null-modem cable.
For me, identifying obsolescence is secondary to deduplication. It seems like USB cables breed if not monitored. Thinning the herd keeps things fitting in the small boxes.
It was all easier once I abandoned my lifelong dream of saving the day with a null-modem cable.
I use two labels. One is code to identify the box (GLS-1 for garage left shelf #1), another label lists some details of the content of the box. And a google sheet with the box Ids and a corresponding list of items. Easy to search, and I don't have to go from room to room checking each box.
I have an unfortunate story of my father's hoarding.
About a decade ago, my childhood home got raided by the DEA because my brother allegedly ordered precursors on the darkweb. My father consented to a full search. DEA agents opened up his garage as our neighbor pulled out his lawn chairs to watch the affair. The garage was the crown jewel of my father's hoard, filled with ancient technology and useless crap. One of the DEA agents, frustrated from hours of searching, screams out "Why does he have so much fucking shit?!"
They found nothing and completely trashed the place, likely a little upset. Thankfully I didn't live there at the time. I did find it comedic that the cops were there way longer than they wanted to be just going through my father's shit.
About a decade ago, my childhood home got raided by the DEA because my brother allegedly ordered precursors on the darkweb. My father consented to a full search. DEA agents opened up his garage as our neighbor pulled out his lawn chairs to watch the affair. The garage was the crown jewel of my father's hoard, filled with ancient technology and useless crap. One of the DEA agents, frustrated from hours of searching, screams out "Why does he have so much fucking shit?!"
They found nothing and completely trashed the place, likely a little upset. Thankfully I didn't live there at the time. I did find it comedic that the cops were there way longer than they wanted to be just going through my father's shit.
Wow your neighbor sounds like a tool.
I’m right on the cusp (I think). I have a ton of things but they’re at least organized. My problem is I build really strong emotional attachments to things, especially things from my childhood. The 286 I learned BASIC on and all its associated junk? Nah, can’t get rid of that. Desk I had as a child? No way. Talking toy robot my friend brought me back from Japan? Get out of here.
Part of it was also growing up poor. When I did get something it was a rare event and a treasure I had to be certain to take super good care of it because the odds of me getting a replacement were basically zero. I get so irritated when I see people treat their things like crap. If you take care of them you could have them your entire life! I fully understand that’s not most people’s goal though.
It wasn’t a problem when I lived alone, I am extremely organized. Everything in labeled bins and what not.
Living with my wife though who is not organized has made it something of a struggle and a strain on our relationship. To this end I have been working with a therapist for about a year to help me among other things just generally reduce. For instance I have popped the hard drives out of 8 computers and donated them to FreeGeek. Each of the hard drives is labeled and catalogued into a special anti-static storage container. Space wise that alone was a big win.
Part of it was also growing up poor. When I did get something it was a rare event and a treasure I had to be certain to take super good care of it because the odds of me getting a replacement were basically zero. I get so irritated when I see people treat their things like crap. If you take care of them you could have them your entire life! I fully understand that’s not most people’s goal though.
It wasn’t a problem when I lived alone, I am extremely organized. Everything in labeled bins and what not.
Living with my wife though who is not organized has made it something of a struggle and a strain on our relationship. To this end I have been working with a therapist for about a year to help me among other things just generally reduce. For instance I have popped the hard drives out of 8 computers and donated them to FreeGeek. Each of the hard drives is labeled and catalogued into a special anti-static storage container. Space wise that alone was a big win.
As someone who grew up in a household with a parent that is a compulsive hoarder and having researched this from the perspective of long-suffering family members, I feel I can speak on this.
People who were born in the war era and experienced hunger and other shortages in supplies have had the “waste not want not” mindset drummed into them from birth.
Throwing away something that “might still be useful” is illogical and psychologically painful to them. Couple that with available storage space and you have a recipe for what we in the “modem” disposable society now call “hoarding”.
“modern” western society has be trained by consumerism to throw away things that no longer serve us. It’s what drives the economy. Planned obsolescence. Things designed not to last beyond the warranty period. To the “normal” (indoctrinated) consumer, throwing away the glass jar “packaging” their pasta sauce came in is perfectly normal. But 100 years ago, throwing away a perfectly reusable sterilisable food container would have been insane. It’s our modern abundance and disregard for the true (environmental and human) cost of the natural resources used to make everything that means people think it’s OK to throw everything away.
Sadly, these people take it to what is - to them - the logical conclusion: they keep everything including broken or junk items that they might someday fix and use again.
As an adult I’ve fought hard to be a an anti-hoarder - some might call it “minimalism” - but actively donating old clothes, recycling broken electrical appliances and selling anything of value that I no longer need/use.
But I totally understand the psychology of keeping things that might be useful.
What is a “prepper” but someone who is hoarding materials (food, medicine, weapons, land, etc) that might be useful in the event of a zombie apocalypse. People that society looks up to - like Bill Gates, Sam Altman and Peter Thiel - to are hoarding resources. We just don’t call it a “disorder” when it’s a billionaire.
Note: I’m definitely not suggesting that this is not a compulsive disorder for many people. But it doesn’t start out that way. It starts with people saving useful things and gradually slides into keeping junk because the line between useful and trash becomes blurred. Yes, the extreme cases need professional help.
People who were born in the war era and experienced hunger and other shortages in supplies have had the “waste not want not” mindset drummed into them from birth.
Throwing away something that “might still be useful” is illogical and psychologically painful to them. Couple that with available storage space and you have a recipe for what we in the “modem” disposable society now call “hoarding”.
“modern” western society has be trained by consumerism to throw away things that no longer serve us. It’s what drives the economy. Planned obsolescence. Things designed not to last beyond the warranty period. To the “normal” (indoctrinated) consumer, throwing away the glass jar “packaging” their pasta sauce came in is perfectly normal. But 100 years ago, throwing away a perfectly reusable sterilisable food container would have been insane. It’s our modern abundance and disregard for the true (environmental and human) cost of the natural resources used to make everything that means people think it’s OK to throw everything away.
Sadly, these people take it to what is - to them - the logical conclusion: they keep everything including broken or junk items that they might someday fix and use again.
As an adult I’ve fought hard to be a an anti-hoarder - some might call it “minimalism” - but actively donating old clothes, recycling broken electrical appliances and selling anything of value that I no longer need/use.
But I totally understand the psychology of keeping things that might be useful.
What is a “prepper” but someone who is hoarding materials (food, medicine, weapons, land, etc) that might be useful in the event of a zombie apocalypse. People that society looks up to - like Bill Gates, Sam Altman and Peter Thiel - to are hoarding resources. We just don’t call it a “disorder” when it’s a billionaire.
Note: I’m definitely not suggesting that this is not a compulsive disorder for many people. But it doesn’t start out that way. It starts with people saving useful things and gradually slides into keeping junk because the line between useful and trash becomes blurred. Yes, the extreme cases need professional help.
I’m a minor hoarder of stuff. Mainly because of a few reasons:
- “Never know when I might need it”.
- Selling things sucks. The market is really unpleasant. Even donating things is a challenge, find an interested recipient, and arranging transportation. And then throwing things away is morally corrupt.
- It’s a sign of failure. A failure to fully utilise an object, a failure to pursue a hobby, an interest, a commitment. So I just keep it, because I haven’t yet failed if I still have the potential.
- “Never know when I might need it”.
- Selling things sucks. The market is really unpleasant. Even donating things is a challenge, find an interested recipient, and arranging transportation. And then throwing things away is morally corrupt.
- It’s a sign of failure. A failure to fully utilise an object, a failure to pursue a hobby, an interest, a commitment. So I just keep it, because I haven’t yet failed if I still have the potential.
> - Selling things sucks. The market is really unpleasant. Even donating things is a challenge, find an interested recipient, and arranging transportation. And then throwing things away is morally corrupt.
This is the big thing for me. I have a medium-sized hoard that I believe could probably fetch a few bucks, but taking the time to list everything individually for $1 here and $3 there on eBay, and then ship them one by one is infeasible.
I'd probably be willing to use some kind of consignment service where I can just box up all my crap and send it to them, they'd sort it out, figure out what works and what doesn't, list and sell what they can, and give me 10% of the revenue or whatever. I can't be arsed to do all that myself.
This is the big thing for me. I have a medium-sized hoard that I believe could probably fetch a few bucks, but taking the time to list everything individually for $1 here and $3 there on eBay, and then ship them one by one is infeasible.
I'd probably be willing to use some kind of consignment service where I can just box up all my crap and send it to them, they'd sort it out, figure out what works and what doesn't, list and sell what they can, and give me 10% of the revenue or whatever. I can't be arsed to do all that myself.
The other one in my family is they don't want it to go to the landfill. There is a lot of guilt in throwing something out.
I have a problem throwing out old stuff that I don't need or use. When I start going through and sorting things out I get hit with waves of memories. It's like I've offloaded memories to these objects and if I throw them away I'm throwing away those memories. So then I stick them back in their box and into the closet. Or back on the bookshelf. Or wherever. I try to accumulate less things since I know I'll have trouble throwing them out.
A few years back I read through The Art of Discarding by Nagisa Tatsumi and I'd highly recommend it. It's a short and light read that breaks down our habits of keeping things and has a handful of strategies to get rid of what we don't need, and I found it pretty useful with decluttering a good chunk of what I don't need, and I found that a lot of the stuff I had for sentimental reasons I didn't have much of a true connection to.
But with that being said, winding anecdote: Last month I was helping my folks clear old boxes that pretty much contained my entire childhood. Aside from 3 books there was nothing I'd remotely thought about keeping for well over a decade and I was happy to give or throw away whatever I found. Old toy cars, action figures, way too many PS2 cheat book and magazines to count, I had no connection to anything as we sorted out charity deposits.
I'll admit the Lego was a fun nightmare (I admit that I never should've opened the box!), I'm still scrounging through a mountain of bricks putting together which sets I can, but I won't be keeping this myself.
But then there was a box containing a wooden train set.
The last time I saw it I was ~4 years old. And there I was, looking at something so innocent that hadn't crossed my mind in over 20 years and I immediately broke down in tears on the spot. It felt raw and even thinking about it is still overwhelming. I was laughing with tears streaming down my face as I talked to my mum about it, and even though I won't touch it ever again, I can't help but feel thankful that she decided to keep it for me.
I wish I could make some poignant point about memory and the human condition, but it's weird and odd the way we can have such different emotional attachments to things, and don't take it too hard if some things are too hard to throw away.
But with that being said, winding anecdote: Last month I was helping my folks clear old boxes that pretty much contained my entire childhood. Aside from 3 books there was nothing I'd remotely thought about keeping for well over a decade and I was happy to give or throw away whatever I found. Old toy cars, action figures, way too many PS2 cheat book and magazines to count, I had no connection to anything as we sorted out charity deposits.
I'll admit the Lego was a fun nightmare (I admit that I never should've opened the box!), I'm still scrounging through a mountain of bricks putting together which sets I can, but I won't be keeping this myself.
But then there was a box containing a wooden train set.
The last time I saw it I was ~4 years old. And there I was, looking at something so innocent that hadn't crossed my mind in over 20 years and I immediately broke down in tears on the spot. It felt raw and even thinking about it is still overwhelming. I was laughing with tears streaming down my face as I talked to my mum about it, and even though I won't touch it ever again, I can't help but feel thankful that she decided to keep it for me.
I wish I could make some poignant point about memory and the human condition, but it's weird and odd the way we can have such different emotional attachments to things, and don't take it too hard if some things are too hard to throw away.
Thanks for the book recommendation. I'll look for an ebook or audiobook, because you know, the whole having too much stuff thing haha.
The last time I really tried to declutter felt great. I had a big box of Goosebumps and Animorphs books that I loved as a kid. I loaded them up in my car and drove around to all the Little Free Libraries. I hope some kids had as much fun reading them as I did.
The last time I really tried to declutter felt great. I had a big box of Goosebumps and Animorphs books that I loved as a kid. I loaded them up in my car and drove around to all the Little Free Libraries. I hope some kids had as much fun reading them as I did.
> Thanks for the book recommendation. I'll look for an ebook or audiobook, because you know, the whole having too much stuff thing haha.
I have a whole bunch of books I'm never going to read gathering dust on my bookshelf, and I've only really noticed them now that you've said that. Thanks for the reminder!
As much as I couldn't part with the wooden train set, it's a lovely feeling sharing something you once loved. When it came to all my childhood books we found a local teacher who was more than happy to come around and take them off our hands.
I have a whole bunch of books I'm never going to read gathering dust on my bookshelf, and I've only really noticed them now that you've said that. Thanks for the reminder!
As much as I couldn't part with the wooden train set, it's a lovely feeling sharing something you once loved. When it came to all my childhood books we found a local teacher who was more than happy to come around and take them off our hands.
My problem is that around 10% of them does ultimately become useful after few years. I think adding explicit expiration date might help.
Like, put the stuff in a box, slap "throw away before X" date on it. Take any stuff that you need now, on real need, out of it, anything left goes to trash after the date.
Like, put the stuff in a box, slap "throw away before X" date on it. Take any stuff that you need now, on real need, out of it, anything left goes to trash after the date.
This is a good strategy, but it's hard to come up with a date, and to have the discipline to follow through. I have a lot of bicycles, but I don't believe in "collecting" so if it doesn't get ridden at least every 6 months, it's gone. Old electronics? I've tried a few times to dung out the closet but some stuff sneaks back in, because... you never know... I had a great idea for that when I get time... but that's sooo cool!
I tried taking photos of books that I didn't think I wanted to keep anymore but did want to be reminded of. I got rid of the books but then whenever I saw the photos of the books in my phone I found myself momentarily regretting that I didn't have them anymore.
I've taken a similar approach with the opposite effect. With books though I can understand where you are coming from.
If I was you I would look to getting rid of other things so you can keep your books or I would impose some artificial rule like "if I haven't read 10 or more pages in 3 years the book has to go."
If I was you I would look to getting rid of other things so you can keep your books or I would impose some artificial rule like "if I haven't read 10 or more pages in 3 years the book has to go."
I've pared down my books to owning only timeless reference books or grander "coffee table" style volumes. I find people who would like to borrow the rest, and tell them "No, but you can have it if you promise to give it to someone else once you're done with it". The idea of a book flowing between lots of people makes you feel good and masks the loss of not owning it.
This is a good idea. Where I live there are little libraries on the street where people leave books for others to read.
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I don't know if it counts as hoarding, but my great grandfather fought for Germany on the Western Front in WWI and then lived through WWII in southern Germany. In 1950 my grandparents were able to get him to NY where he lived with them until he died. When he died they cleaned out his room (which he kept very tidy) and found food hidden in various places -- cans underneath clothes in dressers and behind books on shelves, Hershey bars under the mattress, etc. I guess he had lived through some stuff and wasn't going to be caught out ever again.
Many that went through the great depression did this. They also saved money in obscure places so check wall outlets, attic, look for lose boards, etc... any nooks and crannies so to speak, there could be valuables. Advice passed on to me from multiple probate attorneys
One of the grandmothers on the Hungarian side of our family moved out of her house a couple of years ago.
Her son helped her pack up everything. When he opened a drawer, it was shock full with matchboxes.
He asked „Anya, why on earth do you keep thousands of matches in that drawer?“
She just calmly said: „I lived through one war without matches, I will not live through another war without matches.“
Her son helped her pack up everything. When he opened a drawer, it was shock full with matchboxes.
He asked „Anya, why on earth do you keep thousands of matches in that drawer?“
She just calmly said: „I lived through one war without matches, I will not live through another war without matches.“
Back in the 90s, I helped clean out the apartment of a Holocaust survivor. She'd been taken out of a death camp for a labor camp, and nearly starved.
There was food stashed all over the apartment. Like you mention, canned food in odd places, hard candies hidden everywhere imaginable, boxes of crackers behind books on the shelves, etc. Also, small caches of coins or other valuables.
It was both impressive and pathetic.
There was food stashed all over the apartment. Like you mention, canned food in odd places, hard candies hidden everywhere imaginable, boxes of crackers behind books on the shelves, etc. Also, small caches of coins or other valuables.
It was both impressive and pathetic.
Hard for me not to conclude that hoarding can happen more easily now, and that it is more prevalent because it takes a surplus of money and a surplus of goods available, plus some relatively remarkable social and political stability (that the U.S. has had since the 1870s...) Other times and places haven't had the critical combination of lots of available goods plus so many people with enough money and space to store it. Go look at stories of hoarders from the 1800s, they are all very wealthy (even for the time) people.
Now, with mass production and vastly increased purchasing power, this is what we see in America. You cannot tell me that a mental health issue in places like Yemen, Syria, or Guatemala can manifest itself in the same way, because people do not have the money, available goods, or social stability for this disorder to become widespread.
Now, with mass production and vastly increased purchasing power, this is what we see in America. You cannot tell me that a mental health issue in places like Yemen, Syria, or Guatemala can manifest itself in the same way, because people do not have the money, available goods, or social stability for this disorder to become widespread.
> Go look at stories of hoarders from the 1800s, they are all very wealthy (even for the time) people.
If there were poor hoarders, would they be noteworthy enough to write stories about?
If there were poor hoarders, would they be noteworthy enough to write stories about?
Hoarding IME has been about severe resource anxiety -- not unlike the fad of prepper and adjacent lifestyles, but rather generalized in contrast. It's an attachment to, even a personal identification with, the hoard of goods that the afflicted have collected and stored.
Anecdotally, it seems to have affected a high proportion of the Silent Generation -- those who grew up in scarcity (Great Depression, etc.) but then experienced in their adulthood the social pressures toward consumerist abundance. Being afraid of suffering what is seen in retrospect in such societies as an undignified and painful life, they seek to collect things (value, utility) that will ensure they never again experience the same feelings of destitution.
So it makes sense in the current climate of economic precarity ("one bad accident away from total ruin") that such feelings are surging again.
Anecdotally, it seems to have affected a high proportion of the Silent Generation -- those who grew up in scarcity (Great Depression, etc.) but then experienced in their adulthood the social pressures toward consumerist abundance. Being afraid of suffering what is seen in retrospect in such societies as an undignified and painful life, they seek to collect things (value, utility) that will ensure they never again experience the same feelings of destitution.
So it makes sense in the current climate of economic precarity ("one bad accident away from total ruin") that such feelings are surging again.
I’ve become somewhat of an opposite-hoarder over the last few years. In 2015 I threw away most of my things during a move across country, keeping only sentimental/irreplaceable things in an effort to “upgrade” the more utility focused items I owned for the new living situation. Then 3 months later I lost literally all of my possessions as a result of a freak accident. Since then I’ve found it really hard to approach physical possessions with any amount of commitment or feelings of permanence - everything feels extremely temporary. I throw things out all the time, sometimes very impulsively, sometimes to almost immediately regret it.
Related - https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/10/study-millennials-who-buy-le...
> And people who buy less and consume less show less depressive symptoms, so there’s a positive mental health effect.”
My ex was a hoarder. Not as bas as you see on TV, but I wasn’t allowed to throw away “stuff” of which hadn’t been used for years, so the garage became a tad scary. My ex took everything and I started fresh. I haven’t felt this good in 20 years with so little “stuff” in my house.
“Stuff” is truly mentally taxing if not overwhelming for me, personally.
> And people who buy less and consume less show less depressive symptoms, so there’s a positive mental health effect.”
My ex was a hoarder. Not as bas as you see on TV, but I wasn’t allowed to throw away “stuff” of which hadn’t been used for years, so the garage became a tad scary. My ex took everything and I started fresh. I haven’t felt this good in 20 years with so little “stuff” in my house.
“Stuff” is truly mentally taxing if not overwhelming for me, personally.
> > > And people who buy less and consume less show less depressive symptoms, so there’s a positive mental health effect.”
Eh. For me personally I think there's probably some equally depressive behavior going on, as the reverse-hoarding is a result of specific trauma. But in general I agree that consumerism brings on depression.
Eh. For me personally I think there's probably some equally depressive behavior going on, as the reverse-hoarding is a result of specific trauma. But in general I agree that consumerism brings on depression.
Amazingly, there's also a term for that disorder, too. Compulsive decluttering.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/09/ocd-obses...
I think this was front page on here a while back.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/09/ocd-obses...
I think this was front page on here a while back.
Is it a disorder if there’s no downside? Sometimes I think people just name observations and call them disorders.
>Is it a disorder if there’s no downside?
Well, no. But it can get to situations where the declutterer does not have a pen but needs a pen, so they buy one, and then throw it away. But when they next need a pen...
Or situations where they harm their interpersonal relationships, by throwing out other people's treasures/belongings or not having enough furniture to host them, etc.
Well, no. But it can get to situations where the declutterer does not have a pen but needs a pen, so they buy one, and then throw it away. But when they next need a pen...
Or situations where they harm their interpersonal relationships, by throwing out other people's treasures/belongings or not having enough furniture to host them, etc.
If you’re getting rid of things compulsively and it’s causing you anxiety/stress/shame, yes. The disordered behavior is how it impacts your mental health, not how others observe the validity of the behavior.
I was just thinking about this the other day. I think it’s the relatively recent concept of “throwing things away”. I don’t think in much of our evolutionary history we’ve had the concept of planned obsolescence. Lots of the physical items I come in contact with are intended to go to the landfill within my lifetime. It would also make sense that any resource scarcity would trigger hoarding behaviors.
When viewing this problem through an evolutionary history lens, I generally arrive at something like: "Well of course hoarding is a problem, people didn't evolve confined to cages where possessions accumulate. We'd just be nomadic and leave a trail of compostable waste in our wake of unkempt stashes and habitats."
A poverty mindset mixed with a surplus of things available to people creates hoarders. When someone without a lot of money gets something for free or very cheap, even if they don't end up using it very often, they don't want to throw it out, because if they need it later they will not be able to afford to replace it at full price. Sometimes the behavior can persist even when the person eventually gets money. They become used to living that way, and keep preparing to be poor again even after their fortune has changed.
I'd like to point out there's a time management / estimating angle to this as well.
Being excessively optimistic about how useful things will be, and how quickly they can be put to use, lead me to buy a lot of components at Radio Shack when I was a kid, for projects I never finished. I threw a lot of them away recently, along with many other purchases of stuff I never got around to. This scales to full on life disasters, or down to the boxes of parts.
Being excessively optimistic about how useful things will be, and how quickly they can be put to use, lead me to buy a lot of components at Radio Shack when I was a kid, for projects I never finished. I threw a lot of them away recently, along with many other purchases of stuff I never got around to. This scales to full on life disasters, or down to the boxes of parts.
> Almost 10 percent of American households are renting at least one storage space, often for an overflow of stuff, according to a 2015-16 Self Storage Industry Fact Sheet. It is now possible for every American to stand comfortably, at the same time, under the total canopy of self-storage roofing.
I was just reading an article about America's booming storage industry, and now I wonder how much of the boom comes from storage "addicts," similar to how a substantial portion of gambling and alcohol industry revenue comes from a relatively small subset of addicts.
I was just reading an article about America's booming storage industry, and now I wonder how much of the boom comes from storage "addicts," similar to how a substantial portion of gambling and alcohol industry revenue comes from a relatively small subset of addicts.
I suspect that a lot of people rent storage spaces against the day when they'll have "more space" or "have the time to sort through their stuff." And that day never comes or, worse, they move and now they're paying for storage space in an inconvenient location that they'll need to make a project to go to and open up.
Nothing wrong with storage lockers for a specific purpose but a lot of people have them because they have too much stuff and put it in a locker absent any real plan.
Nothing wrong with storage lockers for a specific purpose but a lot of people have them because they have too much stuff and put it in a locker absent any real plan.
Did I miss the bit where they established it is on the rise? Is there evidence for that?
> An entire industry has sprung up around hoarding: psychologists, researchers, social workers, public health workers, professional organizers, fire marshals, biohazard cleanup companies, haulers.
There's probably some kind of connection there, but I'm not a hoardingologist.
There's probably some kind of connection there, but I'm not a hoardingologist.
Have you ever seen Idiocracy? I first watched this movie only because of the 10 minute intro (How did we get to this point?), which I thought was pretty brilliant. The rest of the movie I felt was pretty gross, and one of the chief problems in the fictional future world was the inability of humankind to dispose of their garbage properly. What about WALL-E? Not exactly the same, but it's still there. As I get older and I observe the world around me, (and also accumulate junk myself), it seems I was wrong. We do have a junk problem, big time, already.
My armchair version of the main driver of this phenomenon is very simple: we just acquire too much junk. We produce too much junk, we buy too much junk, we throw away too much junk. Or we throw away not enough junk?! It's in the best interests of most companies and their marketing departments for us to want to do this.
One other human psychological effect I've observed: Trying to get people to recycle for the last 50 years or so has left us with a breed of "Garbage-averse" (my term) individuals. These people do completely irrational things like set half-empty bottles of water beside the trash can, because there's no recycling bin nearby. Now it's somebody else's problem. I understand this, because I was brought up this way as well. For now, I mostly overcome the aversion. Hoarding by older people is the same. "I'll just keep this until it becomes someone else's problem." It will always happen eventually.
My armchair version of the main driver of this phenomenon is very simple: we just acquire too much junk. We produce too much junk, we buy too much junk, we throw away too much junk. Or we throw away not enough junk?! It's in the best interests of most companies and their marketing departments for us to want to do this.
One other human psychological effect I've observed: Trying to get people to recycle for the last 50 years or so has left us with a breed of "Garbage-averse" (my term) individuals. These people do completely irrational things like set half-empty bottles of water beside the trash can, because there's no recycling bin nearby. Now it's somebody else's problem. I understand this, because I was brought up this way as well. For now, I mostly overcome the aversion. Hoarding by older people is the same. "I'll just keep this until it becomes someone else's problem." It will always happen eventually.
"These people do completely irrational things like set half-empty bottles of water beside the trash can, because there's no recycling bin nearby. Now it's somebody else's problem"
In Germany we do this because there's a 25c (for plastic) or 8c (for glass) deposit on those bottles, so we leave them next to a bin in a public place (street or train station) for a poor person to pick it up.
In Germany we do this because there's a 25c (for plastic) or 8c (for glass) deposit on those bottles, so we leave them next to a bin in a public place (street or train station) for a poor person to pick it up.
I would call that rational then. Trust me, there's no pfand for these people.
The premise of idiocracy is funny but shouldn’t be taken seriously. An uncharitable read would be that it advocates eugenics. More charitably it’s just plain classist.
How does it advocate for eugenics and how it is classist?
I agree with you. This really has nothing to do with that.
Though I don't keep obvious trash like pizza boxes or rags, I'm loathe to throw out anything functional, which I no joke attribute to playing too many adventure games as a kid (from LucasArts, Sierra, et al.) I can't escape the gnawing thought in the back of my mind that I will face a complex task where I will need to cleverly combine objects I found long ago in a novel way to complete it.
A rubber chicken with a pulley in the middle. What possible use could that have?
Hard for me not to see links between marketing and hoarding, all told.
Some of it is in the lie that things last. I remember being appalled when a colleague pointed out that the point of consumption goods is that they are consumed. I thought that was too simplistic to cover all of consumerism. It really helped break a lot of my habits there, though.
Back to the marketing point, though. We are simultaneously told that we are bad because we don't find ways to make our shoes last longer, and that we probably need more shoes. On a regular basis. Shirts? Realistically, how many does one person actually need? How many have so many of us purchased in the last year, alone?
Then there is the "collection" aspect of things. We pour so much effort into making collectible copies of things. But then, if you collect too much, you are a hoarder? But, what is too much? Just more than you can financially keep clean? Is this just a "poor people should feel bad about their habits" kind of thing?
Some of it is in the lie that things last. I remember being appalled when a colleague pointed out that the point of consumption goods is that they are consumed. I thought that was too simplistic to cover all of consumerism. It really helped break a lot of my habits there, though.
Back to the marketing point, though. We are simultaneously told that we are bad because we don't find ways to make our shoes last longer, and that we probably need more shoes. On a regular basis. Shirts? Realistically, how many does one person actually need? How many have so many of us purchased in the last year, alone?
Then there is the "collection" aspect of things. We pour so much effort into making collectible copies of things. But then, if you collect too much, you are a hoarder? But, what is too much? Just more than you can financially keep clean? Is this just a "poor people should feel bad about their habits" kind of thing?
> Hard for me not to see links between marketing and hoarding, all told.
I don't think that follows. Hoarding isn't fundamentally about desire to acquire junk, it's about the inability to get rid of it.
People who buy too much garbage they saw on social media or wherever are just "consumerists". It's arguably a mental illness too, I guess, but they aren't hoarding. Generally they just throw stuff out, or into a closet, etc... Though "thrifting" is suddenly an en vogue activity, I assume partly driven out of collective guilt over the amount of junk in our lives.
I don't think that follows. Hoarding isn't fundamentally about desire to acquire junk, it's about the inability to get rid of it.
People who buy too much garbage they saw on social media or wherever are just "consumerists". It's arguably a mental illness too, I guess, but they aren't hoarding. Generally they just throw stuff out, or into a closet, etc... Though "thrifting" is suddenly an en vogue activity, I assume partly driven out of collective guilt over the amount of junk in our lives.
Right, and marketing is a large part of convincing people that things are valuable and should be held onto. Or that you can find a use for it. Or find a way to clean it. Or whatever.
Consumerists can also become hoarders via their consumerist habits. I have an Aunt whose house is full of new books and clothes primarily with tags still on them. She effectively lives with her depreciated life savings.
I'm pretty sure a good part of the increase is just the average quality of durable goods sold new is far worse than it used to be. And for many people, there's a resistance to tossing into the trash something which is nearly brand new. Good money was spent on that thing, and not everyone is ready to accept they've been fleeced by a new reality of everything sold is now TRASH ON ARRIVAL. So it stays under their roof. Even if it's broken, at least it's not in the landfill, and maybe it still looks like a new thing as it collects dust and wastes precious indoor space.
For those cases it's not the hoarders to blame IMO. It's the flood of cheap Chinesium garbage sold new on the shelves of big box stores like Walmart and Amazon. The moment this crap enters the US it belongs in a landfill, you might get a single use of it first.
For those cases it's not the hoarders to blame IMO. It's the flood of cheap Chinesium garbage sold new on the shelves of big box stores like Walmart and Amazon. The moment this crap enters the US it belongs in a landfill, you might get a single use of it first.
I think I'm only not a hoarder because I don't buy very much stuff. Otherwise I have an unhealthy connection to inanimate objects that I find very hard to break. When my dad passed away I ended up with a lot of things we didn't know what to do with, including all the stuff my dad didn't know what to do with when my mom died and stuff they both didn't know what to do with when my grandfather died. I have a garage full of this stuff and it's really hard for me to part with.
I can't get rid of a stupid camping coffee pot because I have good memories of it. Same with old glasses we used for breakfast long ago. I've been working on this, getting bolder as I go, but now I understand why some people just get someone to come in and clear everything out when someone dies.
I can't get rid of a stupid camping coffee pot because I have good memories of it. Same with old glasses we used for breakfast long ago. I've been working on this, getting bolder as I go, but now I understand why some people just get someone to come in and clear everything out when someone dies.
Only the rich can afford to have nothing, since they can buy whatever they want to fill it whenever they want.
fwiw quality/longlevity and up-front investment often go hand in hand, so most consumers of pricy stuff enjoy a lower tco than poor ppl that often reach for the cheapest thing that'll fill their need.
I'm wondering if those who have hundreds of tabs open in their browser suffer from a similar condition
reading the title only, so forgive me.
I (like u/presidentender) had a mother whom was a hoarder.
The major cause of this disorder and many like her was the following:
A) Huge Economic disadvantage. (especially a sudden one).
B) Depression. (a vicious cycle that causes more hoarding because you feel bad about not being able to keep your hoards organised; thus not permitting visitation or social interaction with people... also the feeling of being looked down upon causing even more depression as you self-isolate)
C) A feeling like passing on any opportunity means it might not come your way again.
Thus, my house was filled with absolute junk, unorganised, uncategorised. Often we would have useful parts hidden amongst everything but would have to buy new parts because we couldn't find them.
I've watched a lot of hoarding on television as an adult and nearly everyone suffers the same, it's always borne from economic instability and a huge economic shock.
So, to answer the title: the fact that so many of us have reached the end of capitalism is the reason that hoarding is on the rise. It couldn't possibly be more clear to me.
I (like u/presidentender) had a mother whom was a hoarder.
The major cause of this disorder and many like her was the following:
A) Huge Economic disadvantage. (especially a sudden one).
B) Depression. (a vicious cycle that causes more hoarding because you feel bad about not being able to keep your hoards organised; thus not permitting visitation or social interaction with people... also the feeling of being looked down upon causing even more depression as you self-isolate)
C) A feeling like passing on any opportunity means it might not come your way again.
Thus, my house was filled with absolute junk, unorganised, uncategorised. Often we would have useful parts hidden amongst everything but would have to buy new parts because we couldn't find them.
I've watched a lot of hoarding on television as an adult and nearly everyone suffers the same, it's always borne from economic instability and a huge economic shock.
So, to answer the title: the fact that so many of us have reached the end of capitalism is the reason that hoarding is on the rise. It couldn't possibly be more clear to me.
I am probably an extremely anti-hoarder type.
Old PC's get sent to a new home or junked if they have no use for me - old drives and broken phones get's smashed with a hammer and then binned - that useless firewire cable or USB-1 long gone.
I only keep kettle (3 pin power) plugs around.
Moving homes I gave all my books to the local library. I read them already and a kindle is more efficient.
My dual core Mac Pro PowerPC G5 went to a metal recycler as nobody wanted it and sold my Dual Xeon Mac Pro cheesegrater (still miss the damm thing) for the same price I paid for it 2 years earlier.
Old PC's get sent to a new home or junked if they have no use for me - old drives and broken phones get's smashed with a hammer and then binned - that useless firewire cable or USB-1 long gone.
I only keep kettle (3 pin power) plugs around.
Moving homes I gave all my books to the local library. I read them already and a kindle is more efficient.
My dual core Mac Pro PowerPC G5 went to a metal recycler as nobody wanted it and sold my Dual Xeon Mac Pro cheesegrater (still miss the damm thing) for the same price I paid for it 2 years earlier.
>> I read them already and a kindle is more efficient.
Substituting electronic formats for physical has nothing to do with being an anti-horder, in fact you could have very few possessions but be extremely upset (i.e. clinically depressed) over the loss of any items that is not inline with their monetary or emotional value, and be closer to a hoarder than somebody with "lots of stuff". It's the OCD-collecting and misaligned value/ownership perspective; you can easily do this in a spartan room with a big enough hard drive.
Substituting electronic formats for physical has nothing to do with being an anti-horder, in fact you could have very few possessions but be extremely upset (i.e. clinically depressed) over the loss of any items that is not inline with their monetary or emotional value, and be closer to a hoarder than somebody with "lots of stuff". It's the OCD-collecting and misaligned value/ownership perspective; you can easily do this in a spartan room with a big enough hard drive.
The difference between an IRL hoarder and a digital hoarder is in the real world impacts.
Digital hoarding does not have the same consequences for those around you i.e family friends neighbors or your property. Real life hoarding destroys homes and can blight a neighborhood.
Here's a list of impacts one law firm posted regarding harmful "collection behaviors":
Digital hoarding does not have the same consequences for those around you i.e family friends neighbors or your property. Real life hoarding destroys homes and can blight a neighborhood.
Here's a list of impacts one law firm posted regarding harmful "collection behaviors":
Mold growth
Pest infestations
Structural damage
Fire hazards
Tripping hazards
Respiratory diseases and infections
My Xeon mac pro is still in service, I should break out the G5, I reckon - but I've not.
I did get rid of all of my Old World hardware at least.
I did get rid of all of my Old World hardware at least.
My two best friends are both sons of hoarders. One of the dads is a full "the city is gonna condemn your place for being uninhabitable" hoarder that could have easily qualified to be on the Hoarders TV show; the other is more like "has too much stuff and is too reluctant to get rid of it". Unfortunately, both of my friends have inherited their dads' traits.
I offer to help out and often remind them that "the stuff you own eventually owns you".
I offer to help out and often remind them that "the stuff you own eventually owns you".
To be fair though, one of my hoardy friends just dropped by last week and returned a first edition AD&D dungeon masters guide book that he borrowed 30 years ago and I completely forgot about. I move a lot so tend to donate/sell/toss stuff quite frequently.
Oh, and I forgot about my uncle who is also a hoarder. I think I'm going to head over to his place and re-possess a Vic-20 computer that I gave him ~35 years ago. It would be very fun to refurb that thing (and then use it or sell it; ain't gonna become a hoarder myself!)
Oh, and I forgot about my uncle who is also a hoarder. I think I'm going to head over to his place and re-possess a Vic-20 computer that I gave him ~35 years ago. It would be very fun to refurb that thing (and then use it or sell it; ain't gonna become a hoarder myself!)
Never before has there been such large amounts in both varieties of utilizable items and of similar or identical items, where the limits most often come from how much is in stock at a store, and how much you can afford or salvage.
It is remarkable that with a species which has undergone scarcity so often that a strong instinct isn't activated in more people and that when it has, more people haven't succumbed.
It is remarkable that with a species which has undergone scarcity so often that a strong instinct isn't activated in more people and that when it has, more people haven't succumbed.
The evolutionary history from «able to make complex useful stuff» to «overflowing wealth» was probably too short.
I guess anyone who was at some point at the receiving end of supply and demand freak show ("we see you really need that item/tool/furniture/service, here is special price for you") starts to put into storage one more item, rather than one less. Answer - tracking, profiling, ads, and predatory assholes.
I don't know what the cause is but I'm breaking up with my partner because they can't control it and it's ruining our lives. I love them immensely, but I'm not climbing down into their pit with them when I know they have no intention of ever climbing out.
I am a digital hoarder. yt-dlp is a godsend.
Interesting call out. I wonder what the parallels are.
We grew up in an era where seemingly any TV show you wanted was on VHS, DVD, or netflix. Hard drives get cheaper every year. Now media only appears on streaming services and are silently removed from streaming services, and there are 10+ random services to subscribe to. The streaming services are all increasing their prices. The rest of economy is also inflating at the same time. For some people rent doubled while food only went up 20%. They may have spent $40/ month on various streaming services, but now the same streaming quality of life from streaming services may be $80 while their personal finance budget for streaming services was reduced by $1000 when everything else inflated. The marginal utility of a 8TB+ hard drive for flex/jellyfin and any VPN essentially doubled, and may continue to double several times if inflation and streaming scarcity continue to increase.
Some people may experience this as the digital great depression. I think other factors in the digital world may also cause this feeling.
Some people may experience this as the digital great depression. I think other factors in the digital world may also cause this feeling.
I had a fair amount of stuff until one day someone who knew where I lived started threatening my life. I packed my car and left that day.
Liberated of most of my possessions, a few months later I accepted a friend's offer of a job in another country. I'm almost certain wouldn't have happened if I'd still had all that stuff, and I'm very glad it did.
(I was not a hoarder. I could only have filled a small moving van. But even that amount of stuff had a strong inertial effect.)
Liberated of most of my possessions, a few months later I accepted a friend's offer of a job in another country. I'm almost certain wouldn't have happened if I'd still had all that stuff, and I'm very glad it did.
(I was not a hoarder. I could only have filled a small moving van. But even that amount of stuff had a strong inertial effect.)
Every hoarder I have ever seen - aside from those who hoard wealth, which is just unrestrained, parasitic greed - was actively suffering from or had in the past experienced significant suffering from a single societal ill:
Severe economic inequality and lack of resources.
This doesn’t mean that everyone who had experienced economic inequality and lack of resources became hoarders, only that this figured prominently in almost every hoarder I came across. They hoarded because they had so little that every item was treasured and kept “just in case”, regardless of how useless it actually was.
TL;DR: Behind most hoarders you will find economic deprivation and limited-resources trauma of some kind, either current or historical.
Severe economic inequality and lack of resources.
This doesn’t mean that everyone who had experienced economic inequality and lack of resources became hoarders, only that this figured prominently in almost every hoarder I came across. They hoarded because they had so little that every item was treasured and kept “just in case”, regardless of how useless it actually was.
TL;DR: Behind most hoarders you will find economic deprivation and limited-resources trauma of some kind, either current or historical.
The thing I have trouble ‘hoarding’ is tech. I don’t have a lot of it but it mounts over time. Old laptops/desktops. Gaming consoles, etc.
I feel that throwing these things away, especially the stuff with batteries, isn’t the correct way to handle it.
So I’ve kept it around meaning to do research to understand how best to get rid of it all.
Does anyone have pointers?
I feel that throwing these things away, especially the stuff with batteries, isn’t the correct way to handle it.
So I’ve kept it around meaning to do research to understand how best to get rid of it all.
Does anyone have pointers?
I think it has to do with a general feeling that we've lost control in our lives. Things we can control and they give us comfort. On a different level I also think its what has led to the rise in violent pornography (among other reasons). A desperate need for control amid feeling cut off from being able to control our lives.
My parents were mild hoarders, but it was enough to cause me anxiety growing up. Incidentally, after patching up their marriage, healing their relationship and addressing long-standing problems between them, they finally began to clear it away.
As we are bombarded with more and more oxidative stressors with a less nutrient rich diet more of these disorders will become common, we are already seeing this with anxiety and depression.
The root cause of mood disorders is an inability to cope with oxidative stress.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3964745/
The root cause of mood disorders is an inability to cope with oxidative stress.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3964745/
Possibly it’s my short attention span but I stopped reading at the line about running out of landfills.
Absurd thing to say.
Absurd thing to say.
Poorly worded, perhaps, but it is a real problem. Around here, landfills that have been around forever are either now full, or nearly full, and nobody wants to allow new ones to be established.
As such, throwing things away municipally has become increasing difficult. When I was young you could throw anything you wanted away to your heart's content. Eventually a cost was attached to the volume being discarded. Recently, now, there is a limit to how much you can get rid of each week.
There are solutions when you have more, like employing the services of outside disposal companies, but I can see how that quickly becomes a "I'll contact them later when I have time" and soon the things are piling up and it is not long before you have a daunting task on your hands that you don’t want to touch.
As such, throwing things away municipally has become increasing difficult. When I was young you could throw anything you wanted away to your heart's content. Eventually a cost was attached to the volume being discarded. Recently, now, there is a limit to how much you can get rid of each week.
There are solutions when you have more, like employing the services of outside disposal companies, but I can see how that quickly becomes a "I'll contact them later when I have time" and soon the things are piling up and it is not long before you have a daunting task on your hands that you don’t want to touch.
Inflation.
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And I've naively expected photos of billionaires ...
Like Scrooge McDuck?
No offense, but naïve is the right word, because this wealth is invested, not hoarded.
No offense, but naïve is the right word, because this wealth is invested, not hoarded.
And I thought they have it under the pillow. Thanks for the lesson.
She bought multiple Saabs when I got my driver's license, because they have good crash survival ratings. She bought damaged vehicles at auction so the neighbors could repair and sell them. So there were just a bunch of busted cars on the property.
Once when I was a kid Dad tried to clean. She begged him not to throw away a small screwdriver, saying "it's my friend."
Nobody was allowed to come over because the state of the house and the property were so disgusting.
I'm not a psychiatrist, but for her it seemed to be a combination of totally absent executive function, emotional attachment to inanimate objects (to which she ascribed feelings of their own), and a desire to have a stockpile from which to provide. Add to that the happy side effect of protecting all of us from visitors and the massive inertia of the hoard that made it impractical to clean up even when she was lucid, and you've got an effectively permanent state of being.