EV Chargers Should Be Dumber(heatmap.news)
heatmap.news
EV Chargers Should Be Dumber
https://heatmap.news/electric-vehicles/nema-14-50-mobile-charger-lucid-air
137 comments
I have had to wait at a Tesla Supercharger once in 4 years, and that was early on.
They are building new stations in the US faster than one per day (over 400 last year, tracking to over 500 this year). Each stations contains at least 8 chargers, some have 12, 24, 40, or even more.
Charging stops are usually 10-20min since it's best to use the fast part of the charging curve and move on if you're trying to maximize trip speed.
Definitely agreed about fast chargers needing to be reliable and smart. Part of Tesla's magic is a charge network and in-car navigation that talk to each other so you are routed to working chargers at the right part of your trip. And congested chargers can be automatically routed around.
Hopefully the new agreements in the US allowing other cars to access Tesla's network will promote more competition all around between charging providers to provide a better experience.
They are building new stations in the US faster than one per day (over 400 last year, tracking to over 500 this year). Each stations contains at least 8 chargers, some have 12, 24, 40, or even more.
Charging stops are usually 10-20min since it's best to use the fast part of the charging curve and move on if you're trying to maximize trip speed.
Definitely agreed about fast chargers needing to be reliable and smart. Part of Tesla's magic is a charge network and in-car navigation that talk to each other so you are routed to working chargers at the right part of your trip. And congested chargers can be automatically routed around.
Hopefully the new agreements in the US allowing other cars to access Tesla's network will promote more competition all around between charging providers to provide a better experience.
Tesla owner in Europe. My experience is pretty good even in non Tesla stations. Especially Ionity ones.
However I don't understand your comment about Tesla's costing twice as much. In Italy Tesla's for Tesla owners il less than half compared to 3rd parties (90ish cents kWh vs 44ish)
However I don't understand your comment about Tesla's costing twice as much. In Italy Tesla's for Tesla owners il less than half compared to 3rd parties (90ish cents kWh vs 44ish)
I think in the US it's the lack of competition.
Tesla's chargers are usually the only ones that work at all, so they can charge whatever they want for their product.
Tesla's chargers are usually the only ones that work at all, so they can charge whatever they want for their product.
>While this should be especially true for destinations, such as hotels or even apartments
It's really not though? I've never come across an L2 charger that doesn't just work. The DC fast charging is where the problems always arise. At least with an L2 charger, the hotel/apartment can easily track the power consumption being utilized, and also lock it down to only allow charging as they see fit via mobile app, NFC card, or pin. With a 14-50 it's a free-for-all.
It's really not though? I've never come across an L2 charger that doesn't just work. The DC fast charging is where the problems always arise. At least with an L2 charger, the hotel/apartment can easily track the power consumption being utilized, and also lock it down to only allow charging as they see fit via mobile app, NFC card, or pin. With a 14-50 it's a free-for-all.
I have seen a lot of L2 chargers (J1772) that had broken clips and would not charge my vehicle. Also lots that were just turned off or broken.
Sure, physically broken or turned off chargers aren't going to be magically fixed by making it a 14-50 receptacle though. If people don't care to maintain the charging infrastructure it doesn't matter what it's based on.
My point is: I've never plugged in a working J1772 and had it fail to communicate or fail to charge if it's an otherwise working charger. I've definitely seen that with DC chargers and there are plenty of known issues between certain models of cars and certain brands of DC fast chargers.
My point is: I've never plugged in a working J1772 and had it fail to communicate or fail to charge if it's an otherwise working charger. I've definitely seen that with DC chargers and there are plenty of known issues between certain models of cars and certain brands of DC fast chargers.
In Canada the supercharger experience is great. In 3 years I’ve never had to wait for a spot. The superchargers are usually located in convenient locations in mall marking lots or next to coffee shops or restaurants. I’d love to switch try a different EV but the lack of a supercharger network prevents that.
This reads as a strange comment to me without any information about which chargers in which country/region you’re referring to.
Fwiw I’ve never seen that “people in porches yelling” thing play out here in NL.
Fwiw I’ve never seen that “people in porches yelling” thing play out here in NL.
He means the United States. In my limited experience, his comment rings as accurate here in the United States.
Woa the whole country? I had assumed that with a place that big and varied, there’d be large regional differences for this stuff.
Wow that’s pretty bad then.
Wow that’s pretty bad then.
Definitely not the whole country, I've never experienced it before and am also in the US.
My experience is in northern California. Probably no one can speak for the experience across the entire US. FWIW, this guy in Minnesota seems to have had a very similar experience to what I’ve seen:
https://youtu.be/ZJOfyMCEzjQ?si=zPqg88sE9kfZCLXE
https://youtu.be/ZJOfyMCEzjQ?si=zPqg88sE9kfZCLXE
It seems like his experience is more similar to mine given his experiences on the topic available on YouTube. Just look here:
https://youtu.be/1Vm_ASm2zfs?t=294
"Stop number two was just as uneventful as stop number one." Once again, plenty of dispensers available, got charging on the first try.
Third stop, also uneventful.
Fourth stop, "this is getting really uneventful now, its like stopping at a gas station."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vm_ASm2zfs&t=717s
Is this a station with a wait list? Did it fail to charge? No, there were multiple dispensers open without anyone there and it worked on the first try. On his 1,200mi road trip they encountered one dispenser not working but there was another one unused right next to it.
So no, he's not constantly encountering long lines with belligerent people at multiple broken fast chargers, he's pretty much always rolling up to charging locations that are mostly empty and worked on the first try. Technology Connections is not the person to point to trying to showcase how bad charging is in the US. If you're going to paint his experiences as the norm, then I guess most CCS chargers do work fine and there aren't usually lines.
https://youtu.be/1Vm_ASm2zfs?t=294
"Stop number two was just as uneventful as stop number one." Once again, plenty of dispensers available, got charging on the first try.
Third stop, also uneventful.
Fourth stop, "this is getting really uneventful now, its like stopping at a gas station."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vm_ASm2zfs&t=717s
Is this a station with a wait list? Did it fail to charge? No, there were multiple dispensers open without anyone there and it worked on the first try. On his 1,200mi road trip they encountered one dispenser not working but there was another one unused right next to it.
So no, he's not constantly encountering long lines with belligerent people at multiple broken fast chargers, he's pretty much always rolling up to charging locations that are mostly empty and worked on the first try. Technology Connections is not the person to point to trying to showcase how bad charging is in the US. If you're going to paint his experiences as the norm, then I guess most CCS chargers do work fine and there aren't usually lines.
I didn't watch the video you linked, but I accept your summary of his experience then (1 year ago). The video I link is from 2 weeks ago. A good half of the video is describing many frictions he has encountered with non-Tesla charging networks. Perhaps his experience/evaluation has changed in the intervening interval.
I personally have experienced those frictions myself, in my limited EV experience. I am glad that you have had a better experience - I absolutely want non-Tesla charging networks to be high reliability and easy to use! For everyone, but also for myself, since I don't want to purchase a Tesla.
In the final analysis, I don't know how Technology Connections feels about the state of non-Tesla charging networks. In fairness, I'm not sure you do either. It sounds like his experience was more positive a year ago. But from his most recent video, it doesn't sound like he feels like non-Tesla charging networks work very well or reliably.
To be clear on one point: I haven't encountered lines or interpersonal conflict at charging points. I have encountered plugs not working, payment not being accepted, and rates lower than advertised capability. Before I had those experiences, I had heard people on HN complain about CCS charging network reliability. After, I saw Technology Connections complain about it. All I can say is that my experience has corresponded with those reports.
I personally have experienced those frictions myself, in my limited EV experience. I am glad that you have had a better experience - I absolutely want non-Tesla charging networks to be high reliability and easy to use! For everyone, but also for myself, since I don't want to purchase a Tesla.
In the final analysis, I don't know how Technology Connections feels about the state of non-Tesla charging networks. In fairness, I'm not sure you do either. It sounds like his experience was more positive a year ago. But from his most recent video, it doesn't sound like he feels like non-Tesla charging networks work very well or reliably.
To be clear on one point: I haven't encountered lines or interpersonal conflict at charging points. I have encountered plugs not working, payment not being accepted, and rates lower than advertised capability. Before I had those experiences, I had heard people on HN complain about CCS charging network reliability. After, I saw Technology Connections complain about it. All I can say is that my experience has corresponded with those reports.
I don't know where you're getting "a good half of the video", it barely talks at all about his own personal experiences of CCS. It mostly talks about the history of the plugs, discusses Tesla's process of opening up NACS (and his previous reservations on it), describes how automakers are switching to it, talks about the slow roll out of CCS, talks about how Tesla chargers and 800V cars might not play nice for a while, and then talks about V2G. Could you give me some specific timestamps where he's spending half the video talking about these negative experiences? Which few sections are mostly his experiences? I've seen the video a few times before and just re-scrubbed/watched at 1.75x and I didn't see much of his personal experiences at all.
He does briefly touch on charging networks should work on reliability and just having a new connector won't necessarily improve reliability, but I'm not disagreeing with that. I've got no doubts those who do have bad experiences legit had bad experiences, I'm just suggesting it's often regional and not like every non-Tesla station is plagued with non stop problems. And given his own video publications it seems like his area and the places he traveled had reliable chargers. Maybe most of the issues are on the West coast. Either way that's not half the video nor is it really him talking personal experiences.
Also, kind of funny you're suggesting I watch a video when you refuse to watch one that rebuts your own points. You might want to re-watch both videos if you want to understand his experiences with EV charging. He's got a few of them, and they're generally not filled with routinely bad experiences.
Also, go check out Out of Spec Reviews. They've got a number of videos rightfully critical of the charging networks and several videos showing lots of them failing all at once. But notice how in most of his videos with CCS cars, the experience is almost always rolling up to a station with empty ready to use dispensers, plugging in, and getting a charge. And it doesn't get brought up like some "woah, its actually working this time!" No, instead he'll mention " these are some great Delta units" or "these ABB chargers are top notch" if anything gets mentioned at all. So obviously his experiences, which this is a guy that seems like he's practically on the road every day in multiple different EVs, seems like it's mostly that they work but with some big examples of them not.
He does briefly touch on charging networks should work on reliability and just having a new connector won't necessarily improve reliability, but I'm not disagreeing with that. I've got no doubts those who do have bad experiences legit had bad experiences, I'm just suggesting it's often regional and not like every non-Tesla station is plagued with non stop problems. And given his own video publications it seems like his area and the places he traveled had reliable chargers. Maybe most of the issues are on the West coast. Either way that's not half the video nor is it really him talking personal experiences.
Also, kind of funny you're suggesting I watch a video when you refuse to watch one that rebuts your own points. You might want to re-watch both videos if you want to understand his experiences with EV charging. He's got a few of them, and they're generally not filled with routinely bad experiences.
Also, go check out Out of Spec Reviews. They've got a number of videos rightfully critical of the charging networks and several videos showing lots of them failing all at once. But notice how in most of his videos with CCS cars, the experience is almost always rolling up to a station with empty ready to use dispensers, plugging in, and getting a charge. And it doesn't get brought up like some "woah, its actually working this time!" No, instead he'll mention " these are some great Delta units" or "these ABB chargers are top notch" if anything gets mentioned at all. So obviously his experiences, which this is a guy that seems like he's practically on the road every day in multiple different EVs, seems like it's mostly that they work but with some big examples of them not.
At 19:37 https://youtu.be/ZJOfyMCEzjQ?si=cHgDdtSIutz-dWrZ&t=1177
"So now, why are automakers suddenly itching to make this switch? Well, there's a pretty simple answer: the CCS charging networks available here in the US all kinda suck."
Now, is that judgement based on his "personal experience?" I don't know. But that's what he says. He does say about Electrify America that while he's never "been stranded" by it, (18:37), he describes having problems with using the app to use the chargers. He describes more than half the stations having broken NFC readers. He says "It wasn't great and that experience is happening to far too many owners of new EVs." "Meanwhile, the Tesla supercharger network largely just works." He implies that redundancy at EA stations is insufficient (20:42). At 21:07 says that activating the charger is harder than it needs to be...
At 21:30: "The main problems with CCS networks are poor maintenance, horrible up-time, largely terrible apps which are often the only way to start charging, ..." He then says: "Let me go through those one-by-one." And the he does.
Through 26:56 (this section is labeled "The Many Reasons We're Switching"), he describes issues with non-Tesla charging networks. (You're right that he doesn't blame CCS for the problems, and neither do I.)
I didn't watch your video because I conceded your characterization of it. You don't agree with my characterization of this video, but I think you missed this section.
I don't think it's reasonable to characterize his take on non-Tesla CCS charging networks in this video as anything other than quite negative.
"So now, why are automakers suddenly itching to make this switch? Well, there's a pretty simple answer: the CCS charging networks available here in the US all kinda suck."
Now, is that judgement based on his "personal experience?" I don't know. But that's what he says. He does say about Electrify America that while he's never "been stranded" by it, (18:37), he describes having problems with using the app to use the chargers. He describes more than half the stations having broken NFC readers. He says "It wasn't great and that experience is happening to far too many owners of new EVs." "Meanwhile, the Tesla supercharger network largely just works." He implies that redundancy at EA stations is insufficient (20:42). At 21:07 says that activating the charger is harder than it needs to be...
At 21:30: "The main problems with CCS networks are poor maintenance, horrible up-time, largely terrible apps which are often the only way to start charging, ..." He then says: "Let me go through those one-by-one." And the he does.
Through 26:56 (this section is labeled "The Many Reasons We're Switching"), he describes issues with non-Tesla charging networks. (You're right that he doesn't blame CCS for the problems, and neither do I.)
I didn't watch your video because I conceded your characterization of it. You don't agree with my characterization of this video, but I think you missed this section.
I don't think it's reasonable to characterize his take on non-Tesla CCS charging networks in this video as anything other than quite negative.
Other than him experiencing broken NFC readers and poor app experience it doesn't sound like a lot of personal experiences being shared. Making general statements of uptime isn't necessarily personal; I also agree they should work on uptime because clearly other people do experience problems and I've seen dispensers down I've just used the open one next to them whenever that's the issue. That whole "Many Reasons We're Switching" is largely him talking generally, but a few specific personal experiences are mixed in as short quips (like the charging latches). Him talking about the networks going with more expensive cables and them being slower to replace the cables when failed isn't necessarily a personal experience, just explaining why they struggle with reliability.
As for the app experience, I wouldn't know, I don't use apps to activate the chargers. And that sounds like that was easily half his personal frustrations.
Do you have a CCS car? You mention a limited experience with charging networks. How many years have you used them? How many times have you tried charging at a non-Tesla charger?
As for the app experience, I wouldn't know, I don't use apps to activate the chargers. And that sounds like that was easily half his personal frustrations.
Do you have a CCS car? You mention a limited experience with charging networks. How many years have you used them? How many times have you tried charging at a non-Tesla charger?
You're moving the goalposts. He expresses his judgements about the reliability of CCS charging networks in the video. I suppose that you don't have to credit Technology Connections' assessment if you don't think it's based on his personal experience. But I think you now agree that his assessment (right or wrong) about the state of non-Tesla charging is not positive, and can be (and is) summarized as: "it kinda sucks". And that is what we have been disagreeing about.
I don't accept or trust your pivot to personalize the discussion by focusing on my personal experience. I never said I had vast experience with EV charging (I said it was limited). But for the benefit of anyone reading this thread, I will tell you my experience, and then I'm going to disengage with you.
I have owned a CCS vehicle (Toyota Rav4 Prime) for about 6mo. I live in San Francisco. I have tried to charge it about a dozen times at non-Tesla chargers. I succeeded one or two times. I have also observed friends charge their Tesla vehicles at Tesla chargers about a half dozen times.
In my personal experience, I have had connectivity problems (unable to pay because NFC didn't work, and EA app had no signal in a garage), and chargers labeled as up in the EVgo app were not functional. On the Plug Share app I have seen a non-functional station (https://www.plugshare.com/location/37345), where it has been labeled as up for over 12mo, during which time it has never worked. It happens to be the exact station I have most wanted to use.
Those are some of the exact problems Technology Connections mentions, which is why his video did resonate with me.
It sounds like you've had a good experience with non-Tesla charging, which is great. I wish my experience was as positive as yours, because I am unable to charge at home at my rental unit. I would love to have a great experience with non-Tesla charging, both for myself, and for wide adoption of non-Tesla EVs. It sounds like where you live non-Tesla charging infrastructure works more reliably than it has for me here.
Maybe you're going to tell me I'm a moron and don't know how to charge my car. But I haven't had a great experience at it.
I don't accept or trust your pivot to personalize the discussion by focusing on my personal experience. I never said I had vast experience with EV charging (I said it was limited). But for the benefit of anyone reading this thread, I will tell you my experience, and then I'm going to disengage with you.
I have owned a CCS vehicle (Toyota Rav4 Prime) for about 6mo. I live in San Francisco. I have tried to charge it about a dozen times at non-Tesla chargers. I succeeded one or two times. I have also observed friends charge their Tesla vehicles at Tesla chargers about a half dozen times.
In my personal experience, I have had connectivity problems (unable to pay because NFC didn't work, and EA app had no signal in a garage), and chargers labeled as up in the EVgo app were not functional. On the Plug Share app I have seen a non-functional station (https://www.plugshare.com/location/37345), where it has been labeled as up for over 12mo, during which time it has never worked. It happens to be the exact station I have most wanted to use.
Those are some of the exact problems Technology Connections mentions, which is why his video did resonate with me.
It sounds like you've had a good experience with non-Tesla charging, which is great. I wish my experience was as positive as yours, because I am unable to charge at home at my rental unit. I would love to have a great experience with non-Tesla charging, both for myself, and for wide adoption of non-Tesla EVs. It sounds like where you live non-Tesla charging infrastructure works more reliably than it has for me here.
Maybe you're going to tell me I'm a moron and don't know how to charge my car. But I haven't had a great experience at it.
Yes, I mean west coast US.
Yeah it can be terrible... on a trip I was recently waiting for a DC fast charger to become available, the guy using it was charging from 80 to get to 100%. I had a car full of kids that I couldn't get home because I was at 15%. I asked if I could at least charge for 15-20 minutes and he said "I was here first, not my problem."
I charge at home 99% of the time so it's rarely an issue, but I need to be more cautious on road trips than I hoped. Next time I'll plan ahead to charge earlier.
I charge at home 99% of the time so it's rarely an issue, but I need to be more cautious on road trips than I hoped. Next time I'll plan ahead to charge earlier.
> . People in Porches yelling at other people to get spots.
Are you in Cali? In the midwest, Tesla chargers are still empty (like, in 45,000 miles of driving my tesla I have waited 1 time for ~5 minutes on a roadtrip). Even the non-Tesla chargers are cricket land still.
Obviously EV adoption is higher out west, but also I think more apartment living that need to public charge all the time. Out here - you would only ever charge on a roadtrip as 90% of charging is at home.
Are you in Cali? In the midwest, Tesla chargers are still empty (like, in 45,000 miles of driving my tesla I have waited 1 time for ~5 minutes on a roadtrip). Even the non-Tesla chargers are cricket land still.
Obviously EV adoption is higher out west, but also I think more apartment living that need to public charge all the time. Out here - you would only ever charge on a roadtrip as 90% of charging is at home.
I think a lot of EV charging stories are region specific. I pretty much never encounter down chargers, there's always been one working open dispenser available any time I've wanted to charge at a CCS fast charger. I'm not saying people's horror stories aren't real, just that it doesn't seem to be the story everywhere.
West coast US; and it’s awful. The only times a spot is free is at like 6am, otherwise you’re waiting at least 30 minutes (actively, so no one can take your spot in line) to wait another 30 minutes to charge.
PNW here with an i4. The only time I’ve had problems are on holiday weekends. EA kind of sucks though, lots of broken chargers although most of the time it doesn’t matter. I only use chargers on road trips, so my experience is limited.
North Texas here, driving around Texas I've never had to wait and I've never had a problem getting a charge on the first try.
I think the bigger takeaway from this is that the US really fumbled our level 2 charging protocol by requiring the cable to be integrated into the charger.
In the UK the level 2 charger is just a plug and the user supplies their own cable. It cuts cost, cuts down on vandalism, and makes the car side port no longer as important.
Using NEMA plugs instead of smarter level 2 chargers has the big limitation that you need a ton of adapters to support every possible plug type. Tesla sells as set of 8 adapters and it still doesn't include two of the most common RV park plugs: https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters
In the UK the level 2 charger is just a plug and the user supplies their own cable. It cuts cost, cuts down on vandalism, and makes the car side port no longer as important.
Using NEMA plugs instead of smarter level 2 chargers has the big limitation that you need a ton of adapters to support every possible plug type. Tesla sells as set of 8 adapters and it still doesn't include two of the most common RV park plugs: https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters
The other challenge with using the NEMA plugs is I doubt many of them are rated for as many plug cycles as what a J1772 or Tesla connector is rated for. If that plug is going to get plugged and unplugged several times a day it'll wear out pretty quick.
The plug can handle similar cycles under the spec, but a lot of residential plugs are not.
Those RV site plugs handle 1-2 cycles daily, but they're more robust, more expensive versions.
Those RV site plugs handle 1-2 cycles daily, but they're more robust, more expensive versions.
They have 1-2 different RVs coming in daily, per site? Wouldn't they normally get a new customer come in, plug in (1/2 a cycle), stay for a day or two (or more!) and then leave (1/2 a cycle), then opening the spot for someone and assuming an instant turn around get another customer? That's then 1 cycle every 1-2 days or more.
I figure most would get like 4-5 cycles a week, not 7-14. That's a difference of like 460 cycles a year.
I figure most would get like 4-5 cycles a week, not 7-14. That's a difference of like 460 cycles a year.
> In the UK the level 2 charger is just a plug and the user supplies their own cable. It cuts cost, cuts down on vandalism, and makes the car side port no longer as important.
That sounds really inconvenient, actually. There I would have to carry around a charger while driving? I like just plugging in and not having anything in my trunk.
That sounds really inconvenient, actually. There I would have to carry around a charger while driving? I like just plugging in and not having anything in my trunk.
Yeah, I think that consensus is part of the reason integrated cables took off in the USA. I think the biggest actual contributor was garage parking. Most drivers in the USA are parking somewhere secure where there's minimal risk of the cable being stolen. Whereas lots of EU drivers have uncovered parking or street parking where it's way easier to steal the cable.
The author seems to be overestimating what level 2 chargers actually do. They are really just switches that turn and off the electricity after you pay (and it verifies with the car). So his idea here of replacing all those complicated level 2 chargers with a regular outlet plus a way to pay is.. actually just what a level 2 charger already is.
DC fast chargers are considerably more complicated though.
DC fast chargers are considerably more complicated though.
The biggest difference in the US is the integrated cord. It's about half the total cost and the primary wear item. If we had a spec similar to the UK where the charger had a female J1772 plug and the user supplied the cord we'd be able to roll out a lot more chargers for less money, they'd more consistently work, etc.
J1772 can handle up to 80 amps, but cords can vary anywhere from 16-80. How does the charger determine the ampacity of the user's cord?
In the Type 2 spec there is an additional resistor on the control pins of the cord that communicate the current capacity of the cord to the car. That, along with the signaled capacity of the station gives the car the maximum current it can draw.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector
Interesting, I wonder if resistor-coded detachable cables could be retrofitted into J1772 or NACS without breaking compatibility. As long as it's possible, it'll probably happen eventually.
> It's about half the total cost
Source?
Source?
this isn't really the author's point - but woe on anyone who tries to sign up for the myriad of third party charging web sites to get charging to work. I am looking at you EVGo, Enel X Way, Electrify America, Charge point,etc. None of these just let you swipe a card and pay. None of the level 2 or level 3 chargers has the basic functionality you get at a gas pump: you can just pay with a card. No - you need to download the app, sign up, do f*ing email verification, enter your credit card, enter the station number in the app because the QR Scanning doesn't work. All to find out that the stupid charger refuses to talk to your car.
To add insult to injury -there are failure points everyway through this process. Not enough bandwidth to download the bloated app, the email verification doesn't work. Have you tried calling the support number on a charger? That's really an exercise in self torture.
So yes, EV Chargers should be a lot dumber. Take my money, give my electrons, and screw off about everything else.
To add insult to injury -there are failure points everyway through this process. Not enough bandwidth to download the bloated app, the email verification doesn't work. Have you tried calling the support number on a charger? That's really an exercise in self torture.
So yes, EV Chargers should be a lot dumber. Take my money, give my electrons, and screw off about everything else.
Electrify America does allow paying by card. And federal regulations are going to require it for all public charging stations. This, I'm not worried at all.
I can only speak for chargepoint but I did, in fact, just tap a card and pay for charging a month or two ago. No phone, no app, no signup.
Granted, it was a shared station that was sharing what was probably only a 20/240 circuit but ... it worked.
(California)
Granted, it was a shared station that was sharing what was probably only a 20/240 circuit but ... it worked.
(California)
The really mind blowing part is that some chargers do have card readers on them but they are as reliable as the chargers themselves.
The Electrify America app works exactly as well as you would expect. Which is to say barely at all. First it is slow. Like, calling-a-thousand-recursive-lambdas slow. Second, it will get stuck on previous sessions so you can't start a new one. Third, support's script tells them to make you log out even though this doesn't fix the problem. Fourth, the login form in the app doesn't tag the password field to utilize iOS keychain so after logging out you have to know your password off the top of your head. The entire experience is one unending papercut. It's modern UXD meets bootcamp quality code.
And it's still the best network I have used! Chargepoint may as well not even exist!
The Electrify America app works exactly as well as you would expect. Which is to say barely at all. First it is slow. Like, calling-a-thousand-recursive-lambdas slow. Second, it will get stuck on previous sessions so you can't start a new one. Third, support's script tells them to make you log out even though this doesn't fix the problem. Fourth, the login form in the app doesn't tag the password field to utilize iOS keychain so after logging out you have to know your password off the top of your head. The entire experience is one unending papercut. It's modern UXD meets bootcamp quality code.
And it's still the best network I have used! Chargepoint may as well not even exist!
Download an Electrify America virtual membership pass and you'll never need the app any more. Just use NFC.
I suspect the UX in the app is so poor because nobody really uses the app to initiate charging. Just tap your phone and done. It even works without cellular signal. With such superior UX I don't see why anyone still uses the app.
I suspect the UX in the app is so poor because nobody really uses the app to initiate charging. Just tap your phone and done. It even works without cellular signal. With such superior UX I don't see why anyone still uses the app.
If you have a promo plan, you want to make sure you set it to your default plan, otherwise the NFC pass may use the card you have on file instead. For those that use one EA account with multiple household cars, there's no easy way to jump between those plans without using the app.
Yes. The only way I know to charge my ioniq5 is by doing it via the app to get the free charging. I didn't know I could make it my promo plan the default plan for tap to paly.
Cool, I didn't know that was an option! I was on a road trip in a rental so it was all new to me. Electrify America did "ship" me a card but I never received it. Do charging sessions still get stuck with the NFC method?
> None of these just let you swipe a card and pay. None of the level 2 or level 3 chargers has the basic functionality you get at a gas pump
I've absolutely done many charging sessions at EVGo, Electrify America, Chargepoint, and others by just swiping a credit card.
I've absolutely done many charging sessions at EVGo, Electrify America, Chargepoint, and others by just swiping a credit card.
maybe I exaggerated - but there are certainly networks out there that do not allow swiping a card. But it's still really annoying that I have a 5-10 charging apps on my phone. why?
The only reason I download these apps is to sign up for their membership so I can get discounts.
It's really no different if someone wants to download the Chevron app to get discounts at a gas pump. It's individuals' choice whether the hassle of an additional app is worth some discount.
It's really no different if someone wants to download the Chevron app to get discounts at a gas pump. It's individuals' choice whether the hassle of an additional app is worth some discount.
> But it's still really annoying that I have a 5-10 charging apps on my phone. why?
Because you installed them I guess? The only app I have on my phone is Plugshare and I use CCS chargers every now and then, every time its been either plug and charge or credit card chip read.
Because you installed them I guess? The only app I have on my phone is Plugshare and I use CCS chargers every now and then, every time its been either plug and charge or credit card chip read.
I'm hoping that by the time I buy an EV regulators will force these charging companies to accept cash. Ideally, that would mean not having to use their apps.
Gas stations that are closed but let you use the pumps have no such mandate.
CC readers are all that is necessary, and many if not all charging stations have card readers.
CC readers are all that is necessary, and many if not all charging stations have card readers.
Unfortunately corporations are unable to allow your valuable data to be "left on the table".
EV chargers aren't this "dumb" for one simple reason: they need to be able to charge you for the power used.
A dumb outlet, if metered properly, would still need some app or something to be able to restrict you from just taking power infinitely. That's not scalable, unfortunately. It can be offered as an amenity for certain businesses, but as more EVs exist, you'll likely see these free offerings go away.
Most RV parks that let you use an EV charge you per day. And it's usually quite expensive, far more than the power you'd consume. $30-50/day isn't unusual.
A dumb outlet, if metered properly, would still need some app or something to be able to restrict you from just taking power infinitely. That's not scalable, unfortunately. It can be offered as an amenity for certain businesses, but as more EVs exist, you'll likely see these free offerings go away.
Most RV parks that let you use an EV charge you per day. And it's usually quite expensive, far more than the power you'd consume. $30-50/day isn't unusual.
> EV chargers aren't this "dumb" for one simple reason: they need to be able to charge you for the power used.
A dumb outlet, if metered properly, would still need some app or something to be able to restrict you from just taking power infinitely.
I'm scratching my head here. The old gas/diesel dispensing stations have solved this problem of restricting people taking all of the fuel in the pump with a disruptive financial technology called blo^H^H^H credit card. And I am really, really struggling to understand why I cant buy electricity directly with my credit card. (I do understand why the app might be better experience in many ways, but it is no excuse for not making it possible to pay with card without stupid obligatory app)
I'm scratching my head here. The old gas/diesel dispensing stations have solved this problem of restricting people taking all of the fuel in the pump with a disruptive financial technology called blo^H^H^H credit card. And I am really, really struggling to understand why I cant buy electricity directly with my credit card. (I do understand why the app might be better experience in many ways, but it is no excuse for not making it possible to pay with card without stupid obligatory app)
The main limit is minimum transaction fees. A gas station is usually at least a $20 transaction. Since most level 2 charges are about $1 of electricity per hour, you're paying massive credit card fees for short charges. The apps all support some sort of balance to combine charges into large single transactions.
Soda machines that take cards are common. It doesn't seem like small charges are a real problem.
So much the better to pay less fees, but I can't imagine it is really driving anything.
So much the better to pay less fees, but I can't imagine it is really driving anything.
You can in the EU (or you will be able to anyway). Thanks to EU red tape you'll be able to use contactless to pay for charging.
https://www.nfcw.com/2023/08/07/384966/eu-mandates-contactle...
Presumably the Brexit dividend will allow UK EV owners to continue to have to deal with a gazillion shitty apps.
I wish they'd do the same for car parks.
https://www.nfcw.com/2023/08/07/384966/eu-mandates-contactle...
Presumably the Brexit dividend will allow UK EV owners to continue to have to deal with a gazillion shitty apps.
I wish they'd do the same for car parks.
You can, a lot of chargers these days do have credit card terminals and can start charging with just a swipe/tap/chip read of a regular card.
I'm not suggesting you couldn't do this directly via credit card payment via terminal. I think they should allow that. In fact, some systems DO allow this. My point is that if you make it a "dumb outlet" like the author suggest, it's literally identical to what we have today except you now have to bring your own charging cord (which, is inconvenient. Like bringing a gas pump handle and line with you to the gas station).
Electricity meters have been known for decades, even with payment terminals.after all, they were invented to bill customers for electricity used.
And I can see authors point - if you look at Tesla chargers, it's not only the stalls but whole underground infrastructure with cooling, air conditioners and who knows what else. If cars were designed to use AC instead it would be enough to have an AC outlet (3 phase probably) and a meter, and whole charging station could be built by an electrician, with standard components. Yep you won't get a megawatt power this way, but 30-50kW is realistic
So the power meter dutifully ticks up the charge you have used while plugged in. Then what? How do you pay it? Do you have to go track down some person who may or may not be on duty to read the meter, hope they read it before you started, and pay them in quarters?
Cars are designed to use AC. That's how all current Level 2 chargers work. They are basically dumb outlets plus a contractor, GFCI, and optionally a payment terminal. But beyond a certain level (around 20kW) the size and cost of putting a larger AC to DC converter in the car is prohibitive.
At one point Tesla Superchargers were literally racks of the same AC to DC converters found in the car, but fed with 3-phase power, bussed together, and cooled all external to the car. There's no other way to implement a reliable 20-minute roadtrip charge.
Cars are designed to use AC. That's how all current Level 2 chargers work. They are basically dumb outlets plus a contractor, GFCI, and optionally a payment terminal. But beyond a certain level (around 20kW) the size and cost of putting a larger AC to DC converter in the car is prohibitive.
At one point Tesla Superchargers were literally racks of the same AC to DC converters found in the car, but fed with 3-phase power, bussed together, and cooled all external to the car. There's no other way to implement a reliable 20-minute roadtrip charge.
Oh come on, pay for use is a solved problem. Look at gas pumps.
But if it's not feasible to have a big DC converter in every car then no luck
Gas pumps are larger transactions, so the credit card fees are less of a hit for the business. A level 2 AC charger is about $1 per hour of electricity, so you're taking huge credit card fees for shorter charges.
Most of the apps have some sort of balance that lets you make one $10 transaction and then spend it on a lot of smaller charge sessions.
Most of the apps have some sort of balance that lets you make one $10 transaction and then spend it on a lot of smaller charge sessions.
That's an interesting wrinkle on what should be an otherwise tractable. Perhaps the government should subsidize the transaction fees in some way like they subsidize the oil companies.
You must be using an unusual definition of subsidy. Gasoline is heavily taxed just about everywhere.
Anyway shifting around the costs doesn't change the fact that paying ~30% in fees is very inefficient
Anyway shifting around the costs doesn't change the fact that paying ~30% in fees is very inefficient
There’s a solution right in the problem: mandate a single “balance card” that pays all EV chargers.
Not sure why that gets a downvote. We use this solution all over the place. From transit cards to gift cards you pay a single transaction fee to the credit card company so you can then pay 0 transaction fees on the tiny purchases.
It gets downvotes because people don't need stupid card for gas pumps either. They are using credit/debit cards.
So an AC outlet with a built in meter and payment terminal, that simply provides AC power to the car with an onboard DC converter, already exists. That's what basically every Level 2 EV charger is today.
(Really it's an "EVSE" not a charger, it is doing no charging work)
They have a couple of extra safety features (like a contractor and GFCI) and include the cable (in North America, in countries with the Type 2 connector you bring your own cable).
These chargers go up to 19.2kW commonly in the US, although the charge rate can be limited by the installation (circuit size) or the car (onboard charger capacity).
(Really it's an "EVSE" not a charger, it is doing no charging work)
They have a couple of extra safety features (like a contractor and GFCI) and include the cable (in North America, in countries with the Type 2 connector you bring your own cable).
These chargers go up to 19.2kW commonly in the US, although the charge rate can be limited by the installation (circuit size) or the car (onboard charger capacity).
A helpful video about what's inside an AC EV "charger":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMxB7zA-e4Y
Really the only difference with the fancier ones is they have a screen and payment terminal or NFC terminal for activating and paying. Like a gas pump, although most want you to use their app and membership to save (them) on credit card processing fees.
DC fast chargers are a whole different story, where the AC to DC conversion happens external to the car.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMxB7zA-e4Y
Really the only difference with the fancier ones is they have a screen and payment terminal or NFC terminal for activating and paying. Like a gas pump, although most want you to use their app and membership to save (them) on credit card processing fees.
DC fast chargers are a whole different story, where the AC to DC conversion happens external to the car.
Yeah but even adding a credit card terminal massively increases the complexity compared to the plain plug the author is talking about here. If you're going to have to include relays and ground fault equipment and payment systems you're 95% of the way to a "complicated" EVSE.
There's actually a clever way to reconfigure the inverter electronics and (induction) motor to essentially do "regenerative braking" off of a 3-phase supply (https://patents.google.com/patent/US5341075A/en).
I'm not sure if this is so widely used as to not be worth mentioning, or if there are hidden gotchas or patent encumbrances that keep it from being widely used.
I'm not sure if this is so widely used as to not be worth mentioning, or if there are hidden gotchas or patent encumbrances that keep it from being widely used.
Jesus. They figured this out with gas pumps like 50 years ago. There's no need for an app. Period, the end. You pre-auth with a card, and then it stops giving you fuel when you hit the limit, or it stops after a certain amount. It then charges you based on how much you used when you stop charging. If you keep charging, it costs you more.
The author is advocating for outlets that you have to bring your own charger for. If you do this and have a way to meter it, you've literally designed what existing ChargePoint or other J1772 chargers do today, just without the convenience of having the charging cord built into the appliance.
There's nothing stopping people from having a pay-at-the-pump style chargers. I'd advocate for it. I'm just saying that we basically already have this, except it requires apps at the current time for some of them. That has nothing to do with smart vs not.
There's nothing stopping people from having a pay-at-the-pump style chargers. I'd advocate for it. I'm just saying that we basically already have this, except it requires apps at the current time for some of them. That has nothing to do with smart vs not.
Ya, the problem is solved if we just made electricity into a liquid rather than a current.
Seriously though, the problem is mostly that these are all new with a very different model from being a gas pump (due to longer charge times). They also throw the chargers into random retail locations, they are completely unmanned, and everyone except Tesla pretends maintenance need doesn’t exist.
Seriously though, the problem is mostly that these are all new with a very different model from being a gas pump (due to longer charge times). They also throw the chargers into random retail locations, they are completely unmanned, and everyone except Tesla pretends maintenance need doesn’t exist.
It need not be any more complicated than a gas pump. Just swipe/tap and use.
Orange Charging offers a low cost "dumb" solution that still manages to bill for the power. It'd be a great fit for a lot of apartment complexes, IMO.
What is the solution?
Really simple outlets with builtin power monitors, cellular for management and billing, bluetooth for mesh connectivity between multiple units, and bluetooth for customer connectivity for activation. Cost ~$400 for a 240V unit.
https://www.orangecharger.com/product/orange-outlet-620
https://www.orangecharger.com/product/orange-outlet-620
That doesn't sound very dumb, that sounds quite complicated. Bluetooth for customer connectivity? So I'll still need an app...
Well, it can't be completely dumb and still support billing. There are several competing factors here:
- They want to support billing - which requires network access, at least for the station itself
- They want to minimize the cost of the station both up front and maintenance. Fewer cables and accessories (eg, card readers) helps a lot here
- Much of their target audience is inside of parking garages where cell reception can be spotty. This means mesh is a must and bluetooth for client connectivity is best.
- They need to have power metering built-in and there are related regulatory concerns due to usage based billing
All of this means that it can't be a truly dumb device. What they've come up with is essentially the lowest cost solution that can possibly work.
- They want to support billing - which requires network access, at least for the station itself
- They want to minimize the cost of the station both up front and maintenance. Fewer cables and accessories (eg, card readers) helps a lot here
- Much of their target audience is inside of parking garages where cell reception can be spotty. This means mesh is a must and bluetooth for client connectivity is best.
- They need to have power metering built-in and there are related regulatory concerns due to usage based billing
All of this means that it can't be a truly dumb device. What they've come up with is essentially the lowest cost solution that can possibly work.
If it can't truly be a dumb device, maybe you shouldn't be telling people its a "dumb" device.
Hey guys, this thing is "green". Well, we couldn't actually paint it green, so it's blue, but that's as close as we could get it!
Hey guys, this thing is "green". Well, we couldn't actually paint it green, so it's blue, but that's as close as we could get it!
> Paying for the service might be harder to manage without complicated apps. I mean, I can’t picture companies or utilities doling out power without a way to manage or bill drivers.
Isn't that precisely a major point of the apps and the rest of the faff involved? Of course the systems are overengineered if you ignore that requirement.
Isn't that precisely a major point of the apps and the rest of the faff involved? Of course the systems are overengineered if you ignore that requirement.
I've often thought that overnight charging at hotels would be simpler without that. Just a simple keycard to open, similar to other hotel amenities and a fixed cost to use it would be sufficient.
At an RV park, maybe charge a small premium if that is even needed.
At an RV park, maybe charge a small premium if that is even needed.
But then the hotels would have to manage & support it, with the extra apps and 3rd party management, it's somebody else's problem.
This is why I have not bought an EV, and I'm not buying one until it's solved.
Our current fueling infrastructure does not care what brand of vehicle I have. It does not require any particular payment method -- I can even pay cash! It is permissionless.
I'll buy an EV as soon as we they have permissionless fueling.
Safety is a red herring. Legacy fueling is far more dangerous than EV fueling -- we're talking about combustible hydrocarbons for crying out loud.
Our current fueling infrastructure does not care what brand of vehicle I have. It does not require any particular payment method -- I can even pay cash! It is permissionless.
I'll buy an EV as soon as we they have permissionless fueling.
Safety is a red herring. Legacy fueling is far more dangerous than EV fueling -- we're talking about combustible hydrocarbons for crying out loud.
"forgot to bring along a NACS-to-CCS adapter" and that's where I stopped reading.
Step 1. Please understand the technology before you complain about it.
There is no such thing as NACS-to-CCS adapter currently. If there was it would do no good at a AC charging station.
Step 1. Please understand the technology before you complain about it.
There is no such thing as NACS-to-CCS adapter currently. If there was it would do no good at a AC charging station.
The confusion is kind of understandable with the multiple overlapping standards. They were really talking about a Tesla/NACs to J1772 adapter, which do exist and can be used at Tesla destination chargers.
No shit sherlock
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Slow chargers at destinations (home, work, hotels, cabins, ski resorts) should be dumb. At most they should take payment directly via contactless or via a shared kiosk in a parking lot, no app or account required. Most Level 2 chargers are pretty dumb. They are not much more than an integrated AC outlet, cable, contractor, GFCI, and optionally a payment terminal.
Fast chargers should be smart. They should report their status and availability, so you (and your in-car nav) know which chargers are working or congested.
The car should be smart, and navigate you to these chargers (with options of course if you have preferred routes, stops, charger brands, etc.). The car knows when to schedule a charge so you will arrive with an optimal battery charge (low) and not spend extra time charging all the way to 100% when it is faster to move on to the next trip segment.
Fast chargers should also take payment either via plug-and-charge that bills a single account linked to your car (ie Ford BlueOval pass), or take tap-to-pay directly on the charger without an app or account requirement. The latter is a requirement of the federal infrastructure funding for EV fast chargers.
Destination chargers are great and can absolutely make EVs a daily convenience for many. But I've taken many road trips in my EV that simply would not have been possible with basic dumb outlets as my only way to charge.
Fast chargers should be smart. They should report their status and availability, so you (and your in-car nav) know which chargers are working or congested.
The car should be smart, and navigate you to these chargers (with options of course if you have preferred routes, stops, charger brands, etc.). The car knows when to schedule a charge so you will arrive with an optimal battery charge (low) and not spend extra time charging all the way to 100% when it is faster to move on to the next trip segment.
Fast chargers should also take payment either via plug-and-charge that bills a single account linked to your car (ie Ford BlueOval pass), or take tap-to-pay directly on the charger without an app or account requirement. The latter is a requirement of the federal infrastructure funding for EV fast chargers.
Destination chargers are great and can absolutely make EVs a daily convenience for many. But I've taken many road trips in my EV that simply would not have been possible with basic dumb outlets as my only way to charge.
That's an interesting idea. Like with pay parking lots, have a central kiosk that you go pay for the parking and it enables the EVSE at the spot. Only a few actual payment terminals needed means it reduces the odds of a failure at any particular spot and reduces the cost. Seems like a good idea. At hotels it could be tied to a room key to charge to the room.
Tesla has actually implemented it in locations where their chargers did not have onboard payment terminals (since Teslas charging at Tesla chargers negotiate this automatically) but were required to add local payment options.
https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla-adds-standalone-scree...
https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla-adds-standalone-scree...
> Installing NEMA 14-50 outlets everywhere could put the EV revolution on the road sooner rather than later.
No. No it won't. It's helpful TODAY for homes and office buildings and hotels. Destinations. But as the author said himself, it was limited to below 10kw/hr. That means your average Tesla will require roughly 7 hours for a full charge, or 20 hours for your hummer EV. It's unlikely you'll need a FULL charge, but if you're at work for 8 hours, that's not a problem. Or at home sleeping, not an issue. But for any long distance driving? No dice.
We *need* fast charging. We need smart chargers that can handle multiple cars intelligently until we get to a point where battery and capacitor technology is far enough along to rival gas.
The average consumer doesn't want to futz with a J1772 adapter to get free EV charging when on an errand - let alone tinker about with a dozen adapters, plug ends and whatnot. Now if someone is an EV enthusiast, no problem. They probably have all the adapters and more with them all the time (I do).
At the end of the day, the 14-50 argument is a bit like saying "Everyone should carry their own fuel pump with themselves. That'd be so much easier than all these fancy gas station pumps. Just let people dangle the hose directly into the tank and pump it out themselves." Oh.. and just as dangerous.
No. No it won't. It's helpful TODAY for homes and office buildings and hotels. Destinations. But as the author said himself, it was limited to below 10kw/hr. That means your average Tesla will require roughly 7 hours for a full charge, or 20 hours for your hummer EV. It's unlikely you'll need a FULL charge, but if you're at work for 8 hours, that's not a problem. Or at home sleeping, not an issue. But for any long distance driving? No dice.
We *need* fast charging. We need smart chargers that can handle multiple cars intelligently until we get to a point where battery and capacitor technology is far enough along to rival gas.
The average consumer doesn't want to futz with a J1772 adapter to get free EV charging when on an errand - let alone tinker about with a dozen adapters, plug ends and whatnot. Now if someone is an EV enthusiast, no problem. They probably have all the adapters and more with them all the time (I do).
At the end of the day, the 14-50 argument is a bit like saying "Everyone should carry their own fuel pump with themselves. That'd be so much easier than all these fancy gas station pumps. Just let people dangle the hose directly into the tank and pump it out themselves." Oh.. and just as dangerous.
We need some fast charging and that's coming online as investments are ramping up rapidly. However, the vast majority of people aren't traveling anywhere close to the maximum range of their car the vast majority of the time. Meaning the vast majority of the time, all they need is a simple slow charger.
Destination charging is a thing. You go shopping, you top up some kwh. You sleep at a hotel, your car charges overnight. You go to work, you plug it in in the car park. Etc. There's a massive growth in the availability of chargers like that. It's only when you are going to drive longer distances that a fast charger is nice and worth the premium price you'll likely pay for using one. Most highways have those. Some areas are still a bit under served.
Basically fuel pumps require electricity to function. So any fuel station is a potentially charging point. And when double digit percentages of cars are electric, most of the surviving ones will be offering chargers. Many of course won't make it. Range anxiety is going to be a thing if you own an ICE vehicle pretty soon. Is there going to be a petrol station where I'm going? Is it still in business? Is it getting supplied? Just mocking ICE car owners here of course. Unlike an EV, you are really screwed if you go out of range of a petrol station. An EV can just plugin to whatever. Even another EV if that's needed. Mobile chargers are already a thing.
The practical reality of course is that the overall number of chargers is already much higher than the number of petrol stations. And many EV owners rarely use a fast charger. For most people, fast charging is a thing they do a few times a year. Mostly they just plug in and forget about it.
My parents have been driving an EV for the last half year. Fast charging is a thing my father stressed out about. I asked him the other day if he had used a fast charger yet. Answer: no. The need for that simply hasn't come up yet. The car has enough range for what they do. They've done destination charging a few times. But not fast charging. Mostly they charge at home and it's all they need. They are planning a trip to France soon (1200km drive). So, they will have to plan some charging stops. Likely that will be a mix of hotels with chargers and maybe a few tactical fast charging stops. But that will be the first time.
Destination charging is a thing. You go shopping, you top up some kwh. You sleep at a hotel, your car charges overnight. You go to work, you plug it in in the car park. Etc. There's a massive growth in the availability of chargers like that. It's only when you are going to drive longer distances that a fast charger is nice and worth the premium price you'll likely pay for using one. Most highways have those. Some areas are still a bit under served.
Basically fuel pumps require electricity to function. So any fuel station is a potentially charging point. And when double digit percentages of cars are electric, most of the surviving ones will be offering chargers. Many of course won't make it. Range anxiety is going to be a thing if you own an ICE vehicle pretty soon. Is there going to be a petrol station where I'm going? Is it still in business? Is it getting supplied? Just mocking ICE car owners here of course. Unlike an EV, you are really screwed if you go out of range of a petrol station. An EV can just plugin to whatever. Even another EV if that's needed. Mobile chargers are already a thing.
The practical reality of course is that the overall number of chargers is already much higher than the number of petrol stations. And many EV owners rarely use a fast charger. For most people, fast charging is a thing they do a few times a year. Mostly they just plug in and forget about it.
My parents have been driving an EV for the last half year. Fast charging is a thing my father stressed out about. I asked him the other day if he had used a fast charger yet. Answer: no. The need for that simply hasn't come up yet. The car has enough range for what they do. They've done destination charging a few times. But not fast charging. Mostly they charge at home and it's all they need. They are planning a trip to France soon (1200km drive). So, they will have to plan some charging stops. Likely that will be a mix of hotels with chargers and maybe a few tactical fast charging stops. But that will be the first time.
Everything you don't understand seems like it could be dumber.
The details prop up only when you delve into it or start experiencing issues.
There is a relevant quote from Einstein here : "Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler."
The details prop up only when you delve into it or start experiencing issues.
There is a relevant quote from Einstein here : "Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler."
As someone who's lived car-free my entire life (yay EU and good public transport), I'm baffled to find out charging a car even requires an app.
How did we manage to fuck up something as basic as delivering power? We've been doing this for like, dunno, 150 years? I understand charging requires payment - why not a simple credit card terminal? Or gosh - a clerk that would accept cash, like what every single gas station in existence has been doing for over a century?
How did we manage to fuck up something as basic as delivering power? We've been doing this for like, dunno, 150 years? I understand charging requires payment - why not a simple credit card terminal? Or gosh - a clerk that would accept cash, like what every single gas station in existence has been doing for over a century?
This only works if you’re willing to give people free electricity. And if you’re willing to do that, you might as well make the existing DC fast chargers free too.
A 10kw level 2 charger costs about $2k to install and uses about $1 an hour of power. A 250kw DC charger costs about $50k-150k to install and uses about $30 an hour of power running full tilt. Way lower upfront capital costs and way lower potential for abuse.
In places where people stay for multiple hours, there's a huge argument to install about 25-50 level 2 chargers and make them a free perk instead of one big fast charger. Less complexity, less potential for being blocked or vandalized, etc.
In places where people stay for multiple hours, there's a huge argument to install about 25-50 level 2 chargers and make them a free perk instead of one big fast charger. Less complexity, less potential for being blocked or vandalized, etc.
My landlord recently had the opportunity of paying $1 so that I could avoid paying $2.50. They didn't do that. Never underestimate the willingness of some short-sighted companies to nickel and dime you to death, even for the slimmest margins. A hotel should just add free L2 chargers for their guests, but many will see it as an opportunity to profit rather than a perk of the overall experience.
I wish hotels would provide non-free L2 chargers rather than just one or two free ones that are camped all the time and so I can never use them. The non-free resource you can use is much more useful than the free resources that is unusable.
Should have taken advantage of the arbitrage.
The author is using a NEMA plug, which provides level 2 charging. That's not suitable for road trips. When we talk about infrastructure for charging we are almost always talking about level 3 charging like those 350kW stations at Electrify America.
That said, even if we restrict our discussion to just level 2 (sometimes called destination chargers, for a reason), the main cost of installation is to run new lines to the parking lot or wherever they are located. The main cost is not the EVSE. Tesla sells one for $500 for example, and no-name brands sell it for half as much. If a property is already upgrading their infrastructure to run multiple 50A NEMA outlets, the incremental cost of equipping them with an EVSE is tiny.
That said, even if we restrict our discussion to just level 2 (sometimes called destination chargers, for a reason), the main cost of installation is to run new lines to the parking lot or wherever they are located. The main cost is not the EVSE. Tesla sells one for $500 for example, and no-name brands sell it for half as much. If a property is already upgrading their infrastructure to run multiple 50A NEMA outlets, the incremental cost of equipping them with an EVSE is tiny.
If we're talking about infrastructure for road trip charging, I agree with you. I'd estimate that well over 90% of my total car annual milage is for "not road trips" and so when I'm talking about "what infrastructure for charging would we need to electrify half the US fleet?", I'm definitely going to include Level 2 charging at home, offices, and commercial spaces.
(I'd even include Level 1 charging at home, but since that's a really short conversation, it rightly doesn't get talked about much.)
(I'd even include Level 1 charging at home, but since that's a really short conversation, it rightly doesn't get talked about much.)
For people in cold climates, level 1 charging won't even charge the car at all. If the battery is too cold, it can't take on a charge, and the 1800 watts it gets won't be enough to warm the battery.
I live in Boston and have had a LEAF as my year 'round daily driver for almost 9 years. I've never had a problem charging it and only have Level 1 (1440W) charging at home. Boston isn't the most extreme cold climate, but it's plenty cold for long stretches and my cheapest of the lot EV has been fine.
it maxed out at 9.6kW per hour
It comforts me that even serious publications still get these units wrong.
It comforts me that even serious publications still get these units wrong.
People assume driving the Alaska Highway in an EV would be difficult, but actually it's extremely easy thanks to all the RV parks with 50 Amp service. They're plentiful, and the cost is already rolled into camping a night.
You are basically limited to one charge a day, however, that makes the trip sort of slow. Here is hoping BC Hydro keeps expanding their charging infrastructure north.
I've driven the AK highway over a dozen times, summer and winter.
Take your time, enjoy it. There's no rush.
Take your time, enjoy it. There's no rush.
I’ve only done it once as a 4 year old in a 4 person family…in a Datsun hatchback.
The problem is how to bill users for electricity consumed, because charging a car can cost $10 or more.
The simplest solution would be a kWh meter on the outlet, but someone has to read it.
Next would be a bluetooth, NFC, or optical interface that lets you send kWh credits from your phone without the charger itself needing a cell modem, but then the problem is how to store value on a phone without double spending or losing the money. That seems really hard, though a campground could probably get by with a 95% solution that errs on the side of refunding to the customer.
The simplest solution would be a kWh meter on the outlet, but someone has to read it.
Next would be a bluetooth, NFC, or optical interface that lets you send kWh credits from your phone without the charger itself needing a cell modem, but then the problem is how to store value on a phone without double spending or losing the money. That seems really hard, though a campground could probably get by with a 95% solution that errs on the side of refunding to the customer.
You'd have a credit card terminal connected to a relay, ammeter, and ground fault protection circuits. Credit card authorized, engage the relay, track the current, calculate some rate * amps * time. But if you're there, you're already most the way there to the "complicated" EVSE.
Credit card/any NFC device, set max power delivered per charge - block the money beforehand, commit the payment transaction at the end/disconnect.
Apps are absolutely not needed
Apps are absolutely not needed
This would require data connectivity at every campsite. Too expensive to scale.
I'd expect to have some mobile data connection at most parts of the US (through Europe that would not be an issue the slightest). The data transfer needed is really low. There is a need only for a single point with inet connectivity. The wifi part costs as little as a couple of dollars.
The entire thing can be trivially built by off-the-shelf components and it won't 'hard' to scale at any rate. For example a triac 600V/40A is less than $5 - that's the power control (need 3 for 3-phase).
The entire thing can be trivially built by off-the-shelf components and it won't 'hard' to scale at any rate. For example a triac 600V/40A is less than $5 - that's the power control (need 3 for 3-phase).
If people are too dumb to read a meter that goes from 0-1000kwh, maybe they shouldn't be driving. And if they're that dumb, why does having some app with some shitty bluetooth connectivity that doesn't work half the time solve the problem?
Just put in your card at the machine FFS. Treat it just like a gas pump. this is not technically difficult, but I feel like everybody is making it out to be some difficult problem. Gas and electricity refill a vehicle in exactly the same way. You put in X amount of energy, go X amount of miles. Electricity just takes longer to charge, but otherwise what is so different?
And somehow every gas station managed to authorize your credit card even in the most remote of bumfuck places. Even where all there is is a land line, they can still dial out to authorize. Again, solved problem.
If you want to have an account and an app, fine. Don't force everybody else to have it.
Just put in your card at the machine FFS. Treat it just like a gas pump. this is not technically difficult, but I feel like everybody is making it out to be some difficult problem. Gas and electricity refill a vehicle in exactly the same way. You put in X amount of energy, go X amount of miles. Electricity just takes longer to charge, but otherwise what is so different?
And somehow every gas station managed to authorize your credit card even in the most remote of bumfuck places. Even where all there is is a land line, they can still dial out to authorize. Again, solved problem.
If you want to have an account and an app, fine. Don't force everybody else to have it.
> If people are too dumb to read a meter that goes from 0-1000kwh, maybe they shouldn't be driving.
The meter needs to be read by a campground attendant after every stay, to determine who used the electricity. This is straightforward but labor intensive.
Adding a card reader and data connectivity to a campsite would greatly increase capital and ongoing maintenance costs. The same applies to condo/apartment parking spaces.
The meter needs to be read by a campground attendant after every stay, to determine who used the electricity. This is straightforward but labor intensive.
Adding a card reader and data connectivity to a campsite would greatly increase capital and ongoing maintenance costs. The same applies to condo/apartment parking spaces.
So, a gas pump?
Not everything needs to be an app. Especially in a world where almost nobody can build an app that actually functions.
Not everything needs to be an app. Especially in a world where almost nobody can build an app that actually functions.
This is a pretty uninformed and distracting article.
No offense to the author but that's just ridiculous. If the only charging infrastructure we deploy is single-phase AC power, electric cars are doomed. When your roadtrip involves stopping every 250-300 miles to charge for 8 hours, you just aren't using it. Not to mention he's essentially stealing power since he rolled into an RV park and by his own description didn't actually PAY the RV park for the electricity he used.
There are a lot of issues with charging in the US, but that's more a matter of immaturity than anything else. We need far more L3 DC fast chargers, and we need the folks building the charging stations to be more tightly integrated with car mfg's so they can actively test fast charging before new cars hit the market to work out bugs BEFORE the first time someone wants to charge a new model.
If you're going to downvote, at least have the decency to respond. I assume folks that don't like the response don't own an electric vehicle. If you've ever taken a road trip in one, you'd immediately know how ridiculous it is to advocate for deploying NEMA 14-50 outlets across the US as a solution to charging... it would be an absolute waste of US taxpayer dollars for endless reasons, not the least of which the charging speeds are so slow as to be borderline useless unless it's a destination you were already planning on spending an overnight trip at. At which point you'd be better served by an L2 charger which have none of the communication issues that sometimes exist with DC fast charging.
There are a lot of issues with charging in the US, but that's more a matter of immaturity than anything else. We need far more L3 DC fast chargers, and we need the folks building the charging stations to be more tightly integrated with car mfg's so they can actively test fast charging before new cars hit the market to work out bugs BEFORE the first time someone wants to charge a new model.
If you're going to downvote, at least have the decency to respond. I assume folks that don't like the response don't own an electric vehicle. If you've ever taken a road trip in one, you'd immediately know how ridiculous it is to advocate for deploying NEMA 14-50 outlets across the US as a solution to charging... it would be an absolute waste of US taxpayer dollars for endless reasons, not the least of which the charging speeds are so slow as to be borderline useless unless it's a destination you were already planning on spending an overnight trip at. At which point you'd be better served by an L2 charger which have none of the communication issues that sometimes exist with DC fast charging.
To be fair, I doubt most knowledgeable RV parks would mind. In my area, it is less than <$.15/kwh (often _much_ less). Even for a Lucid, that'd be $16.50 at most. The parking spots here tend to be $50 and up and most RVs would be running A/C off the power most of the day anyway. So the real difference is maybe ~half of that?
I doubt the campground would complain about a customer like this. And, tbh, RV energy usage will vary widely too. They don't really charge differently for a large RV with a big A/C on >90F days vs a smaller one there during early spring.
I doubt the campground would complain about a customer like this. And, tbh, RV energy usage will vary widely too. They don't really charge differently for a large RV with a big A/C on >90F days vs a smaller one there during early spring.
>In my area, it is less than <$.15/kwh (often _much_ less). Even for a Lucid, that'd be $16.50 at most. The parking spots here tend to be $50 and up and most RVs would be running A/C off the power most of the day anyway. So the real difference is maybe ~half of that?
I'm not following, you're saying RV parks would have no issues with EVs swinging by every day, using $15 of electricity, and not ever paying a dime? I'm not sure about your area, but around here campgrounds aren't exactly printing money... they would very much not be cool with someone stealing their power.
If you're suggesting someone paying $50 for a parking spot and then plugging in - sure the RV park isn't going to care at all. The author of the article appears to have just taken the power without paying a dime though...
I'm not following, you're saying RV parks would have no issues with EVs swinging by every day, using $15 of electricity, and not ever paying a dime? I'm not sure about your area, but around here campgrounds aren't exactly printing money... they would very much not be cool with someone stealing their power.
If you're suggesting someone paying $50 for a parking spot and then plugging in - sure the RV park isn't going to care at all. The author of the article appears to have just taken the power without paying a dime though...
I've never seen an RV park that would allow you to take a powered spot without paying. Unless it is unstaffed, I don't think you'd get by with it.
Doing so is trespassing and theft. I didn't see where he said that he did that, just that the power wasn't metered.
TBH, even with that, I've seen RV parks that would refuse a paying EV customer for various reasons.
Doing so is trespassing and theft. I didn't see where he said that he did that, just that the power wasn't metered.
TBH, even with that, I've seen RV parks that would refuse a paying EV customer for various reasons.
But if they didn't pay for the spot they're not a customer they're just someone who took >$16 worth of resources and left.
And if you're paying $50 for the spot, you're massively overpaying for your charging.
And if you're paying $50 for the spot, you're massively overpaying for your charging.
Yes, it isn't the cheapest way to do it, unless you are car camping anyway.
I didn't see where it said he was trespassing.
I didn't see where it said he was trespassing.
I remember listening to a great podcast about digital circuit breakers that seems relevant to this discussion:
https://www.volts.wtf/p/the-digital-circuit-breaker-and-why#...
https://www.volts.wtf/p/the-digital-circuit-breaker-and-why#...
Irrelevant now that everyone is moving to NACS. Free level 2 chargers are just weather-proof plugs - the Tesla wall connector is $500 and can be installed by any electrician anywhere.
Not "everyone", and even those that haven't aren't retrofitting their existing cars. I suspect it's years before you start seeing those cars on the road, and at least as long before you start seeing charging networks upgrade their current stations.
nope.
The standard plug is inadequate for full duty, long time high current.
The contacts oxidise because they heat up, then the contact get worse, they heat more until the plastic melt.
It can work for a short time, but it’s not a good long term solution.
The Tesla plug and charger is a way better system, and is currently being adopted by almost all EV in north america.
The Tesla plug and charger is a way better system, and is currently being adopted by almost all EV in north america.
yet i bet they are goign to go to the other direction, and you'll have to pay extra subscription to dismiss the ads. Perhaps they 'll also remove physical features, to sell them as accessories. It's strange how competition works nowadays, every company competing to please their shareholders more.
One thing missed out here is that most home chargers(in the UK at least) are essentially 240v 32a sockets. The complexity, though, comes from ensuring that they are safe, so they have complex earth fault detection in place - this is mandated in the UK at least. Without that, you could have a very bad day.
Great idea, but the devil is in the details, and many electrical rules (like aviation ones) are written in blood.
Great idea, but the devil is in the details, and many electrical rules (like aviation ones) are written in blood.
The charging "cord" the author is referring to has that earth fault detection and does the amperage negotiation and what not in a box on the cord. Its not just a regular power cord. Its essentially a stripped down level 2 "charger" (EVSE) in cord form instead of a box to mount on the wall.
That has not been the case for any standalone charging cable that I've seen. They do not offer the same level of safety as an EVSE.
Sooo, how would you pay for this then? Or rather, how would a supplier charge you for this? Would they pay a human to flip a switch after you hand over some cash? And if they did, would some bright spark write an app to do that instead? And build some automated switching gear to turn it on and off? And then maybe thud think, hey, what if the customer forget their cable? Maybe we could have our thing have its own cable? Fuck sake.
Same way you pay for gas.
Half the plugs don’t work.
The other half is at 1/4 speed, or less.
And because it’s all mostly older people, they don’t understand that it takes like 30 minutes to go from like 0 to 50% but 45-60 minutes to go from 50% to 100%. Which is annoying because:
With so few chargers, and the ones that are working at slow speed, it is VICIOUS out there. People in Porches yelling at other people to get spots.
I don’t know what it’s like for Tesla people, since its twice as much to charge than at the other chargers, but right now the road trip experience for EVs is awful just because of so few working chargers.
This is before you get to the 20-30 minute charge times.