Marvel Visual Effects Workers Vote to Unionize(rollingstone.com)
rollingstone.com
Marvel Visual Effects Workers Vote to Unionize
https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-news/marvel-visual-effects-workers-vote-unionize-1234824215/
99 comments
That's an amazingly refreshing trend
These kinds of union votes are all publicly available online with the NLRB, if you want more details:
https://www.nlrb.gov/case/31-RC-323290
https://www.nlrb.gov/case/31-RC-323290
We’re going to see this more and more. Here in Vancouver there is a push from the VFX artists and there is some sort of local band-but-not-union that seems to stick together.
I won’t be surprised to see VFX, in IATSE in the near future but then it will be the 3D Artists who are being shafted. So much filmmaking requires unreal engine work these days and those guys are being shit on in the industry at the moment.
I won’t be surprised to see VFX, in IATSE in the near future but then it will be the 3D Artists who are being shafted. So much filmmaking requires unreal engine work these days and those guys are being shit on in the industry at the moment.
IATSE announcement: https://iatse.net/marvel-studios-vfx-workers-unanimously-vot...
It's insane how studios never last no matter how talented nor creative. It seems like there's no way to command a price long term that keeps a studio alive.
> studios never last
What do you mean by this?
I'm assuming you're implying that film, game, and other creative studios all collapse at some point for one reason or another?
I don't think that's the case. Walt Disney Animation Studios has been around since 1923. Lots of studios endure for a long time.
What do you mean by this?
I'm assuming you're implying that film, game, and other creative studios all collapse at some point for one reason or another?
I don't think that's the case. Walt Disney Animation Studios has been around since 1923. Lots of studios endure for a long time.
I think they're' pointing to the recent trend of 3D animation studios other than Pixar and DreamWorks.
Adam Savage describes the problem at the end of this video:
https://youtu.be/jfdQ_3iq4B8?si=9vjdM1cz5FzxuJ40&t=575
https://youtu.be/jfdQ_3iq4B8?si=9vjdM1cz5FzxuJ40&t=575
They are obviously talking about vfx studios that do work for hire instead of animation studios that make money off of their own movie releases. Vfx studios do not make money based on how successful a movie is.
Only 41 employees, though. Disney has another 18 in-house VFX employees, and their election is coming up. This doesn't cover subcontractors, who do most of the work. Those are all those companies, and thousands of people, you see in the end credits.
> thousands of people, you see in the end credits
if you look closely, those usually on-set people, medics, drivers, catering services - those who have unions. VFX companies in most of the cases have a dozen of entries out of hundreds who actually worked on the title, or just a single line company mention. I could understand this practice in cellulose era, but saving a few megabytes at the cost of disrespect to your workers is simply despicable.
if you look closely, those usually on-set people, medics, drivers, catering services - those who have unions. VFX companies in most of the cases have a dozen of entries out of hundreds who actually worked on the title, or just a single line company mention. I could understand this practice in cellulose era, but saving a few megabytes at the cost of disrespect to your workers is simply despicable.
It's not quite that bad, the vast majority of people who work on a Marvel project at a vfx vendor will get a credit, though often in a huge bank of names. It's true that the ordering is driven by historical considerations which is why vfx credits typically aren't that high.
I think the issue with credits is nothing to do with the storage, it's to do with the impact of the run time of the film.
I think the issue with credits is nothing to do with the storage, it's to do with the impact of the run time of the film.
Marvel made their fans watching all credits because of a teaser of a next movie at the very end, so I did it a few times: it actually feels like VFX is consuming now the biggest part of the credits with several production units and at least a few hundred people.
It would be nice to have statistics. People say VFX heavy blockbuster film has few thousand people working out of which 2/3 can be VFX artists.
Even Oppenheimer had over hundred artists and it’s famous for not having any VFX. https://www.cartoonbrew.com/ideas-commentary/christopher-nol...
Even Oppenheimer had over hundred artists and it’s famous for not having any VFX. https://www.cartoonbrew.com/ideas-commentary/christopher-nol...
You have to start somewhere.
Big related discussion last month
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37041394
and a bit a couple of weeks ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37298302
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37041394
and a bit a couple of weeks ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37298302
Right, why is this being reported on heavily now when it was news a month ago?
It's a different step of the process and the news reports all of them because it's what the news does, I guess? Plus labour relations in the entertainment industry are a big ongoing topic. Big source of HN-dupes (because the 'News' in HN is a fiendish misdirection), as you know, but HN-dupery and its quirks are HN-local.
I like to check in IMDB the size of the Visual Teams in movies.
Avenger Endgame (2019) credits 2,203 names in Visual Effects. Death on the Nile (2022), credits 832. CODA (2021), credits 14 people.
Avenger Endgame (2019) credits 2,203 names in Visual Effects. Death on the Nile (2022), credits 832. CODA (2021), credits 14 people.
> All votes cast in the election — held by mail between Aug. 21 and Sept. 11
Wow, it was unanimous :o
I wonder how many people voted, or had the opportunity to vote.
Wow, it was unanimous :o
I wonder how many people voted, or had the opportunity to vote.
If you’re curious about unions, I always find the Taft-Harley Act of 1947 fascinating for how it curtailed the efficacy of unions in this country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act?wprov...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act?wprov...
I find the strikes leading up to it interesting: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_strike_wave_of_1945%E2%80...
> Throughout the Second World War, the National War Labor Board gave trade unions the responsibility for maintaining labor discipline in exchange for closed membership. This led to acquiescence on the part of labor leaders to businesses and various wildcat strikes on the part of the workers.
> Throughout the Second World War, the National War Labor Board gave trade unions the responsibility for maintaining labor discipline in exchange for closed membership. This led to acquiescence on the part of labor leaders to businesses and various wildcat strikes on the part of the workers.
This isn't new. Confucius was well aware of it 2400 years ago, and it's for everyone. If you abuse your powers, you will lose them.
> If you abuse your powers, you will lose them
How I wish this was true
(this is not a comment on Unions, just on abuse of power in general)
How I wish this was true
(this is not a comment on Unions, just on abuse of power in general)
I would hardly call striking over poor conditions abusing your powers. You could say the same thing about the rationale for any government crackdown.
To be able to reach some understanding among us, let me point out that my statement was philosophical (about how the world works) and your statement was political (about who is right). This distinction is important.
In politics, understandably, everyone believes that their actions are right. Those beliefs inevitably lead to warfare. That's why I don't believe in politics.
I stick to philosophy now, knowing that the quiet contemplation of the world, without taking sides, will yield some lasting benefits, without reckless wars destroying the insights about ourselves that we have already collected and named 'progress'.
In politics, understandably, everyone believes that their actions are right. Those beliefs inevitably lead to warfare. That's why I don't believe in politics.
I stick to philosophy now, knowing that the quiet contemplation of the world, without taking sides, will yield some lasting benefits, without reckless wars destroying the insights about ourselves that we have already collected and named 'progress'.
This is a very naive, inexperienced view of politics. In politics, many people have acted in ways they did not believe were right. Many others have acted without a thought given to whether they were right. In some situations, wars have resulted from political actions, but in many other instances, political actions has prevented wars that may otherwise have taken place.
Not taking sides is a political action in itself. Not wanting to be involved doesn't mean you aren't involved.
Not taking sides is a political action in itself. Not wanting to be involved doesn't mean you aren't involved.
Eh, somebody has to go out and bend the arc of progress.
Anyone can add to progress, if they acknowledge that progress is whatever works for everyone, literally, for everyone.
Who succeeded in doing that? There is Confucius, and Norman Borlaugh, and many others ...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug
Who succeeded in doing that? There is Confucius, and Norman Borlaugh, and many others ...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug
I did read that article. Borlaugh seemed very "political" in his views on agriculture and land use to be. And a good guy!
But if local involvement has taught me anything, people always have their own incentives, and it's really impossible to be anodyne it unless you're just letting them run over you.
But if local involvement has taught me anything, people always have their own incentives, and it's really impossible to be anodyne it unless you're just letting them run over you.
Only the people of the business and owner class would think they're entitled to forced workers.
Strikes and unionization are ways that individuals can become in parity with the owner class. Each side has something the other needs.
Strikes and unionization are ways that individuals can become in parity with the owner class. Each side has something the other needs.
Adam Savage does a good job explaining the issue at the end of one of his tested videos:
https://youtu.be/jfdQ_3iq4B8?si=9vjdM1cz5FzxuJ40&t=575
https://youtu.be/jfdQ_3iq4B8?si=9vjdM1cz5FzxuJ40&t=575
It's a start, next up, unions and living wages for all extras!!!
Not sure extras have any bargaining power unfortunately, they might not even exist in 5 to 10 years with the rate of technological advancement. See this video by Corridor Digital: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62-aWHGKeMo
I guess they haven't gone through the corporate training.[0]
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQeGBHxIyHw
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQeGBHxIyHw
stand tall, union strong
Question: Why can't this be done for the entire industry like it is for the on-set crew?
My understanding is that on-set crew and actors are hired by a temporary company set up for that movie specifically. When it's done, they're all out of a job and need to find a new temporary company to work for. This makes unionization of the individual temporary companies essentially impossible.
The same isn't true for folks who work directly for Marvel on an ongoing basis.
The same isn't true for folks who work directly for Marvel on an ongoing basis.
It's not companies that unionize, it's people.
These temporary movie companies employ writers, actors, directors, electricians etc that belong to unions.
These temporary movie companies employ writers, actors, directors, electricians etc that belong to unions.
The people can't unionize a company that exists for less time than the average unionization campaign takes to form one.
This is why the writers and directors in Hollywood are able to unionize as an industry rather than per-company. (See, in contrast, the recent Starbucks unionizations; each individual location votes and creates their own union with a dozen or so members.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectoral_collective_bargaining
> Sectoral bargaining was promoted by the National Industrial Recovery Act of 1933, but struck down and replaced by enterprise bargaining under the National Labor Relations Act of 1935. Today industries like screenwriting, hotels, and railroads still see sectoral bargaining predominate.
This is why the writers and directors in Hollywood are able to unionize as an industry rather than per-company. (See, in contrast, the recent Starbucks unionizations; each individual location votes and creates their own union with a dozen or so members.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectoral_collective_bargaining
> Sectoral bargaining was promoted by the National Industrial Recovery Act of 1933, but struck down and replaced by enterprise bargaining under the National Labor Relations Act of 1935. Today industries like screenwriting, hotels, and railroads still see sectoral bargaining predominate.
What you just described has nothing to do with vfx at all. Actors and on set crew are already unionized.
> Actors and on set crew are already unionized.
Again, in a special way that is not common in the US, because of the transient nature of movie productions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectoral_collective_bargaining
Actors and crew have things like the SAG that negotiate with the movie industry as a whole, because it's functionally impossible for them to unionize otherwise. If you're a unionized Starbucks worker, they don't negotiate with the coffee industry, they negotiate with management at your one particular Starbucks store, because that store is an ongoing permanent concern.
VFX artists employed by a permanently-existing organization like Marvel don't need this exception. (Ones employed by a transient production company for a single film would.)
Again, in a special way that is not common in the US, because of the transient nature of movie productions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectoral_collective_bargaining
Actors and crew have things like the SAG that negotiate with the movie industry as a whole, because it's functionally impossible for them to unionize otherwise. If you're a unionized Starbucks worker, they don't negotiate with the coffee industry, they negotiate with management at your one particular Starbucks store, because that store is an ongoing permanent concern.
VFX artists employed by a permanently-existing organization like Marvel don't need this exception. (Ones employed by a transient production company for a single film would.)
Why are you acting like an industry wide union is some exceptional thing that can't happen?
There have been union vfx and animation studios in the past. The industry is broken up into many companies, which is why people talk about unionizing as a whole.
What is the actual point you are trying to make here?
There have been union vfx and animation studios in the past. The industry is broken up into many companies, which is why people talk about unionizing as a whole.
What is the actual point you are trying to make here?
Because it’s easy to shift VFX work to another location. Even a decade ago, VFX studios were popping up almost overnight in Vancouver. All you needed was to rent some space and thin clients. Today we barely need to rent any space.
I think writers already have a Union? Not sure if it’s the same one as the on set crew
There are several unions in film/TV. Writers are usually part of the WGA. Directors have their own, as do editors, producers, cinematographers, etc.
Good for software and AI engineers.
This is the 50 person vfx crew hired directly by marvel. It is probably production organization and on set people. This isn't the thousands of people in the dozens of big companies that end up actually doing the vfx for their films.
This has nothing to do with software engineers and even less to do with "AI engineers".
This has nothing to do with software engineers and even less to do with "AI engineers".
Yes, if this inspires software and AI engineers to unionize, we’ll all be better off.
Yeah, I will check back and see how you feel in a few years after all the dev jobs have been farmed out overseas to somewhere like Nigeria.
If they could have done that, they would have already done so.
That they couldn't do it in the past doesn't mean they can't in the present or future. Throw a little AI into your offshoring and domestic software development is going to take a hit.
They said the same thing in the 90s about getting Bangalored.
Yet all the FAANGs and other startups are still headquartered in the US.
Yet all the FAANGs and other startups are still headquartered in the US.
Did you know that "Made in Japan" and "Made in Taiwan" used to be a mark of cheaply and badly made junk only a few decades ago? Back then, Americans were pretty confident that the United States would remain dominant in manufacturing indefinitely, particularly in at the time high-tech stuff like electronics and automotive manufacturing, and that other countries would have a hard time catching up. What a difference a few decades makes...
Lots of jokes from tv shows at the time about shoddy Japanese-made cars. Then in the early 2000s about shoddy American-made ones.
[deleted]
I think the biggest moat is time zone. There are lots of skilled english speaking devs who would LOVE to make 60k USD.
I’ve only heard made in Japan being a positive from people who were alive when it was made there in the 80s.
“A few decades ago” is understating it, but talk to some Boomers and you’ll hear a different story from the late 1950s / early 1960s. The Japanese Miracle had already happened by the era of the Walkman.
I remember a Japanese guest visiting and showing us his cam corder with a flip out display. Early 90s probably. Dont think we had them, or at least id never seen them. Was like someone coming from the future.
Thats a bold statement to make when virtually all manufacturing industries have deserted the US
...but that's not something that happened?
“We’ll take our ball and go play somewhere else” is an empty threat.
300+ million people don’t just vanish because CEOs move their companies. The leverage they have is politically manipulated fiat money traditions.
The leverage the public has is experience doing all the work. Ignore the mathematical minority when they cry about gen pop and keep doing the work.
Corporates real role in civic life is distract people from marching on their state capital. They’ll play it because there is no moat against tens of millions with lots of guns.
300+ million people don’t just vanish because CEOs move their companies. The leverage they have is politically manipulated fiat money traditions.
The leverage the public has is experience doing all the work. Ignore the mathematical minority when they cry about gen pop and keep doing the work.
Corporates real role in civic life is distract people from marching on their state capital. They’ll play it because there is no moat against tens of millions with lots of guns.
No matter how morally right one side might feel, it won’t stop competition.
The USA and Detroit had unions and the industry and city became gutted. Tariff and import laws to stay afloat only go so far. There will be times industry will be gutted because there’s something better.
Hollywood seems poised to lose itself - whether AI, moral grandstanding, or strange rules with skin color quotas. The writers strike is going poorly, the general American populace has no sympathy for them, and the big money maker of super hero movies is losing steam.
The USA and Detroit had unions and the industry and city became gutted. Tariff and import laws to stay afloat only go so far. There will be times industry will be gutted because there’s something better.
Hollywood seems poised to lose itself - whether AI, moral grandstanding, or strange rules with skin color quotas. The writers strike is going poorly, the general American populace has no sympathy for them, and the big money maker of super hero movies is losing steam.
> the general American populace has no sympathy for them
71% of Americans support unions, the highest level of support in history. Support among under 30s is ~88%.
https://newrepublic.com/post/175274/gallup-poll-two-thirds-a... ("Poll: Majority of Americans Support Unions and Support Strikes")
https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/20... ("Most Americans support strikes by Hollywood writers and actors")
71% of Americans support unions, the highest level of support in history. Support among under 30s is ~88%.
https://newrepublic.com/post/175274/gallup-poll-two-thirds-a... ("Poll: Majority of Americans Support Unions and Support Strikes")
https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/20... ("Most Americans support strikes by Hollywood writers and actors")
That 71% figure comes from AFL-CIO which is a federation of labor unions. As your link shows, Gallop showed 67% and a decrease between support YOY. Its higher than a long term average of 62% and lower than all time high of 75% following WW2 when unions were in their heyday.
> As your link shows, Gallop showed 67% and a decrease between support YOY.
Which just brings it to where it was in 2021, which is the highest it's been since 1965?
> Its higher than a long term average of 62% and lower than all time high of 75% following WW2 when unions were in their heyday.
Is "following WW2" January of 1957 where it was 75% or August of 1957 where it was 65%. I'm thinking there's some margin of error in those 50s numbers.
Which just brings it to where it was in 2021, which is the highest it's been since 1965?
> Its higher than a long term average of 62% and lower than all time high of 75% following WW2 when unions were in their heyday.
Is "following WW2" January of 1957 where it was 75% or August of 1957 where it was 65%. I'm thinking there's some margin of error in those 50s numbers.
That’s fair with regards to specifics, just pointing out the comment being wildly out of touch I replied to. Par for the course unfortunately.
Union support is substantially higher among younger cohorts, and ~2 million of the 55+ cohort ages out annually, so support should skew upwards over time. Progress in this regard is a function of time.
Union support is substantially higher among younger cohorts, and ~2 million of the 55+ cohort ages out annually, so support should skew upwards over time. Progress in this regard is a function of time.
>so support should skew upwards over time.
That does not necessarily follow. You can’t assume the younger cohort won’t change their opinion over time.
That does not necessarily follow. You can’t assume the younger cohort won’t change their opinion over time.
[deleted]
> Union support is substantially higher among younger cohorts, and ~2 million of the 55+ cohort ages out annually, so support should skew upwards over time. Progress in this regard is a function of time.
If this logic held, we in democratic countries would only have left-wing governments. Actually, people like unions less as they age for various reasons.
If this logic held, we in democratic countries would only have left-wing governments. Actually, people like unions less as they age for various reasons.
History suggests there are two paths; human social norms evolve or an angry mob chanting catechism only they care about starts a war.
The bits about Detroit and Hollywood are easily explained by generational churn of less media savvy, science minded people. Next generations are far more in tune with how the sausage is made; it’s people making biased political decisions. They know there is no divine mandate to preserve old norms.
The minutiae of history is hardly relevant as we have a completely different understanding of what’s possible due to technological advances. Trying to compare agrarian/early industrial culture and modern culture in the early years of tissue and limb regeneration therapy is false equivalence.
All human institutions that have survived are like a Ship of Theseus; everything has been replaced a few times. We just chant a few old sales pitches.
The bits about Detroit and Hollywood are easily explained by generational churn of less media savvy, science minded people. Next generations are far more in tune with how the sausage is made; it’s people making biased political decisions. They know there is no divine mandate to preserve old norms.
The minutiae of history is hardly relevant as we have a completely different understanding of what’s possible due to technological advances. Trying to compare agrarian/early industrial culture and modern culture in the early years of tissue and limb regeneration therapy is false equivalence.
All human institutions that have survived are like a Ship of Theseus; everything has been replaced a few times. We just chant a few old sales pitches.
And if Hollywood destroys itself like Detroit did, that won't be because of unions but because the bosses got lazy and pumped out inferior products.
What will be the Hollywood equivalent to the Fort LTD? Another Marvel movie? Another Fast&Furious?
> The USA and Detroit had unions and the industry and city became gutted.
This narrative might be false, see the interview here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mzz3VI32KBA
This narrative might be false, see the interview here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mzz3VI32KBA
[deleted]
The median salary for Software Engineers in San Francisco is $175k.
The median salary for a remote Software Engineer from Nigeria is $57k.
Unions are not going to change the math on whether we outsource to other countries.
The median salary for a remote Software Engineer from Nigeria is $57k.
Unions are not going to change the math on whether we outsource to other countries.
Not sure how a cost increase doesn't factor in just because there is already a large cost divide.
Not just a cost increase but threats of strike and having to work with the union instead of hiring directly.
[deleted]
Managers can’t even handle the lack of perceived control from letting employees work from home three days a week.
People have been saying this for decades now, meanwhile the number of well paid software jobs has grown tremendously the entire time. What do you think has changed that will reverse this trend in the next few years?
People have been saying this for decades now, meanwhile the number of well paid software jobs has grown tremendously the entire time. What do you think has changed that will reverse this trend in the next few years?
I bet they have cool swag. Great!
Unions work, unionize.
Great news
aaaaaaaw yeah!
Nick Fury is doing one heck of a job
Maybe it’s different in USA. But unions in Germany basically mean, that one would get salary according Union table for particular federal state. Plus the working conditions are a bit better than in owner led companies. However union can’t do anything about layoffs or toxic teams. So thanks to unions all white collar salaries are capped at somewhere near 120000€.
Wherever there is a Tarif, there are Außertarifliche Angestellte who can freely negotiate their salary, if it is at least 110% of highest Tarifgehalt. Unions cannot do anything about layoffs because that's the job of the workers council. Who are quite powerful in that regard . Unions are for coordination across the whole industry. Sure, you can still have a toxic boss - bit she cannot fire you at will!
If your industry needs a union to avoid getting fucked, you should ideally find a better career.
I feel like I’m pretty neutral on unions. Not inherently bad, sometimes vital, but they can be a parasite on companies while being a double edged sword for labor. For example, I think legacy auto and its workers are in a tough spot with thin margins and offshoring. There is basically a shrinking pool of American workers needs being met at the expense of everyone else.
Game dev is also an interesting case because the problem comes from workers who are so desperate to be in the industry despite better options. They can already have better pay and work conditions. Just not from the companies they want it from.
I feel like I’m pretty neutral on unions. Not inherently bad, sometimes vital, but they can be a parasite on companies while being a double edged sword for labor. For example, I think legacy auto and its workers are in a tough spot with thin margins and offshoring. There is basically a shrinking pool of American workers needs being met at the expense of everyone else.
Game dev is also an interesting case because the problem comes from workers who are so desperate to be in the industry despite better options. They can already have better pay and work conditions. Just not from the companies they want it from.
> Game dev is also an interesting case because the problem comes from workers who are so desperate to be in the industry despite better options.
Employees motivated to do the job they want to do is a problem, not the employers taking advantage of that passion?
Employees motivated to do the job they want to do is a problem, not the employers taking advantage of that passion?
It’s a marketplace. If employees aren’t taking advantage of employers when expecting more pay then employers aren’t taking advantage of employees when expecting less pay.
I’m neutral on unions too.
Labor unions for laborers make sense. The single industrial plant that employs every dad in our town shouldn’t have that much power over our lives.
Unions for laptop jockeys who can work in any city in the country or even other countries? If you don’t like your conditions go get different conditions elsewhere.
I’m neutral on unions too.
Labor unions for laborers make sense. The single industrial plant that employs every dad in our town shouldn’t have that much power over our lives.
Unions for laptop jockeys who can work in any city in the country or even other countries? If you don’t like your conditions go get different conditions elsewhere.
Yeah, f whatever your passion is.. just get a good job.
Or pursue your passion in a way that brings unique(ish) value, rather than doing what a commodity quantity of other people can (evidently) do. No problem with a commodity labor pool trying to collectively bargain higher wages, but if you're collectively bargaining it's a good sign you're a commodity labor resource, and if you're a commodity labor resource the market and your CBA put a cap on what you can expect to earn. It's good for some people but certainly never the only option for an individual.
[1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/398303/approval-labor-unions-hi...