Lichess: Block Ads and Trackers(lichess.org)
lichess.org
Lichess: Block Ads and Trackers
https://lichess.org/ads
210 comments
I think "company" is the word that belongs in quotation marks. Not in any demeaning way, but, amongst coders, building something like Lichess is about as idolized and likely as becoming a YouTuber is for kids.
Also, the reality of trying is probably gonna suck super hard and require work and focus beyond what most people would ever be willing to do.
But it sure is easy to imagine how great it could be.
Also, the reality of trying is probably gonna suck super hard and require work and focus beyond what most people would ever be willing to do.
But it sure is easy to imagine how great it could be.
Creating something good and open source is not a delusional dream imo. Whether it catches on is another matter. But even a relatively modest following is a very fine result. I first learned of lichess some years ago when I was looking to make my own chess UI and discovered their high quality open source chess library
The special thing about Lichess is not that it's good and open source, but that it actually pays an okay-ish salary to work on fulltime, while upholding all those lofty goals. It's an actual job. Without the whole thing being paid for by FAANG.
>but that it actually pays an okay/ish salary to work on fulltime, while upholding all those lofty goals.
He pays himself a fairly low salary for the work he is putting in.
He pays himself a fairly low salary for the work he is putting in.
Not really for you to decide, right? How much of your wage would you cede to not have any management? People answer that question differently.
not for French devs who dont live in Paris or other big cities
The amount they spend on server costs should be an eye opener to most enterprises who are spending 10x more and have 100x fewer users.
Fascinating. Looks like the cost per game is $0.00028, or about $1 per 3,500 games.
These types of businesses only work when they cater to a niche audience with a higher than average reasoning ability. Sucks, but it's still great when you find ones to be a part of!
props to founders & gov of France that has special funding for such institutions.
(I'm a Lichess sysadmin & trustee)
So far France has given us exactly 0 euros and 0 cents, but has required us to hire and pay an accounting company to certify our books due to the level of donations we're receiving.
We could maybe argue that being allowed to exist as a non-profit is something France deserves kudos for, if you're in a good mood.
So far France has given us exactly 0 euros and 0 cents, but has required us to hire and pay an accounting company to certify our books due to the level of donations we're receiving.
We could maybe argue that being allowed to exist as a non-profit is something France deserves kudos for, if you're in a good mood.
Except if you look at their financials they are paying a huge tax being a French company. Their resources would go further if they left.
Not really. Taxes are so high because people get a lot of things for cheap/free like Healthcare and education. In countries where this isn't the case (USA for example) you'd easily pay 2 to 3 times the salary to get the same developer.
In this case even only paying the main dev a US wage would be more than the taxes on everything.
In this case even only paying the main dev a US wage would be more than the taxes on everything.
To be snarky:
How many US people who run non profits end up with a “major health event” and have to beg for donations for surgery or something?
While the EU people running non profits just… go to the doctor when they’re sick…
How many US people who run non profits end up with a “major health event” and have to beg for donations for surgery or something?
While the EU people running non profits just… go to the doctor when they’re sick…
Maybe I'm too European, but ~5K out of ~44K total per month doesn't seem too bad. It's also based on what they earn, rather than a static sum, so seems totally OK for what you get back from it.
Lichess sysadmin (and trustee) here!
We're paying taxes on our employees, they're paid like regular French employees and therefore the employer is taxed accordingly. This is not income tax on our donations or swag sales.
I would prefer if the non-profit in France were "employer-taxed" less than for-profit companies, but no one seems to care.
We're paying taxes on our employees, they're paid like regular French employees and therefore the employer is taxed accordingly. This is not income tax on our donations or swag sales.
I would prefer if the non-profit in France were "employer-taxed" less than for-profit companies, but no one seems to care.
which is what enables the French government to fund companies like lichess in the first place.
>Their resources would go further if they left.
So, what, say "thanks for the funding that got us started, we're off to fill our pockets somewhere else now"?
>Their resources would go further if they left.
So, what, say "thanks for the funding that got us started, we're off to fill our pockets somewhere else now"?
… Absolutely yes? Governments are amoral entities, and this particular relationship is based entirely on power (pay us or else), not mutual respect or any of the other things that characterize human social relationships.
If we must anthropomorphize them anyways, then they have paid back in taxes many times more than they were given to start. Any such "implicit" debt was long since paid, so they could move with a clear conscience.
If we must anthropomorphize them anyways, then they have paid back in taxes many times more than they were given to start. Any such "implicit" debt was long since paid, so they could move with a clear conscience.
You do get back a lot from the taxes you're paying, at least in many European countries, where healthcare is widely available to all. I don't feel bad paying what an American would consider "a lot of taxes" because I know it could (but doesn't always) go to helping my neighbor who maybe wouldn't be able to pay for a hospital visit if not. I also use all the built infrastructure every single day, and maintaining it costs money, obviously.
How much money were they given to start? I looked around for the numbers but I couldn't find it, but seems you were able to, could you share the full number you found?
How much money were they given to start? I looked around for the numbers but I couldn't find it, but seems you were able to, could you share the full number you found?
Not to take this conversation too far off track, but the reverse argument could just as easily be made. Companies are amoral entities, existing only to deliver whatever value their owners wish to extract. Governments, meanwhile, are just the manifestation of the will of the people who live in a place. Even currency itself is just a creation of the people by way of the government; no business has any particular right to it.
Not only just as easily, but much more easily assuming somewhat functioning democracy.
I don't even dare ask what your opinion would be of concepts as nation or homeland.
> Their resources would go further if they left.
No, because they would have to pay on the open market for the things those taxes provide for. The tax they’re paying is insignificant compared to their costs.
You’ll note their developer costs are a fraction of what they would be in the US.
No, because they would have to pay on the open market for the things those taxes provide for. The tax they’re paying is insignificant compared to their costs.
You’ll note their developer costs are a fraction of what they would be in the US.
If they lived in the US, they probably would have needed to draw a double or triple salary? So not sure if they really are paying that much more for being in France in the end.
Because in ither countries you would not pay taxes at all…
No they are a non profit.
If you have employees you still need to pay employee taxes
go further and do what-hire one more dev?
Kind of fascinating that their biggest cost is site moderation! This seems... odd for a site whose main mechanic really isn't social networking.
Goes to show you how difficult and demanding moderation truly is, and why popular sites/services routinely fail to do it effectively. It's a quite proactive process.
That's an incredibly good point. I would think you'd need a pretty modest operation when it comes to that for a site like lichess, and the fact that it is the biggest expense really puts into focus the kind of scale the problem likely is at the bigger social media sites.
Nothing is modest at Lichess scale, we have a few million users, several thousand of them post in forums daily and chat with each other.
Also, we're a chess website with more than one million games per day, and some people like to cheat. We're classifying "fair play and anti-cheating" as "moderation" in our expenses because the two are intertwined.
Also, we're a chess website with more than one million games per day, and some people like to cheat. We're classifying "fair play and anti-cheating" as "moderation" in our expenses because the two are intertwined.
Chess players are some of the saltiest people on Earth, people can get really mean in chat. Also cheaters galore
The saltiness is much, much less than in some games (shooters, mobas) but a portion of every playerbase thinks they are the worst one even if they are not.
Extremely good point, I don't really game outside of online chess so I can't say that I have a very wide sample pool. TBH the chat I used to see when my brother was playing League blew any chess experience I've had out of the water. I'd almost use a word beyond "salty" for that
I play regularly on lichess. I got insulted a couple of times in the game chat. Looking at the scale of lichess, I am sure it adds up.
Have you looked at "Zen mode"? It removes the chat while you're playing ... you'll still see any insults after the game though ;)
I know Zen mode, however, most interactions are pleasant so I don't enable it by default, but typically when someone bothers me in the chat.
Me too, but it's still much better on lichess than chess.com in my experience. Also, cheating is not as bad on lichess
I've never ever looked at the chat. And knowing that it costs money, and quite a lot, to moderate that, I'll never report anyone. It's just vanity. I don't care what you write to me. I just beat you in the game. Just cry it out. There you go.
I report these people in the hope that other players don't have to experience their hateful comments.
There is all kinds of player bad behavior that needs to be manually verified - cheating is the obvious one, but there's also smurfing, excessive sandbagging, clock abuse (e.g. letting your clock tick down to zero in a loss, just to be annoying).
What's smurfing and sandbagging?
EDIT: I ask because I was once accused of smurfing (I'm only a casual player) in the chat during the endgame.
EDIT: I ask because I was once accused of smurfing (I'm only a casual player) in the chat during the endgame.
Smurfing is when you disguise yourself as a noob on an alternate account when you are really more skilled.
Sandbagging is related: deliberately losing to play people with lower ratings.
Sandbagging is related: deliberately losing to play people with lower ratings.
I might be wrong, but I think it's considered moderation (at least some of) the anti-cheating controls in place.
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why are the developers' salaries so low? $60k a year??
That's how much I was paid as a dev in Chicago. I loved that job and would do it again in a heartbeat. It was for a midsized educational nonprofit, and I was one of the highest paid workers there already (excluding the C suite). We got so much shit done every day, and I learned and grew so much. Amazing coworkers too.
My next job paid $100k and had me working way way less, barely utilizing my skills. It was a bigger company that was very poorly managed. I spent more time there arguing about Jira points than actually developing anything. My skills and mental health deteoriated. It wasn't worth it.
Seems like Lichess hit that sweet spot of paying a livable wage (in a country where social services are actually a thing) while providing meaningful work on a passion project. Most developers aren't so lucky!
My next job paid $100k and had me working way way less, barely utilizing my skills. It was a bigger company that was very poorly managed. I spent more time there arguing about Jira points than actually developing anything. My skills and mental health deteoriated. It wasn't worth it.
Seems like Lichess hit that sweet spot of paying a livable wage (in a country where social services are actually a thing) while providing meaningful work on a passion project. Most developers aren't so lucky!
That is not a low salary for France, which is where the devs are.
In most places in the world, that's nowhere near a low salary for a developer.
That's a very high salary in a lot of places, perhaps the developers don't feel the need to get 100k+/year...? .-.
That’s.. one way to look at it. Should read “perhaps the company doesn’t feel the need to give developers 100k+/year”.
Well, "the company" in that case is the "main programmer" being paid.
And then one has to consider value of social security provided when comparing with other countries. Health insurance, retirement funds, ...
And then one has to consider value of social security provided when comparing with other countries. Health insurance, retirement funds, ...
Lichess is a non-profit with hundreds of volunteers, several part-time paid contributors/moderators and 2 full-time devs, not a company.
That site inflates salaries because it oversamples devs who work remotely for American companies. For example the site claims Ukrainian devs make $57k a year.
Question from someone who has zero knowledge about managing infrastructure: is all of that absolutely necessary? Only one is marked "we can afford to lose", but $228/mo for a monitoring server seems extremely excessive. Even $44 for "private communcations" (I'm assuming something like RocketChat) surely have cheaper alternatives?
Lichess sysadmin here!
We're self-hosting most of our infra on bare-metal, on the best price/quality hosting provider I know of (OVH). I doubt you could store ~1TB of metrics going back 4 or 5 years on fast NVMe storage for less than this in the cloud.
We're self-hosting most of our infra on bare-metal, on the best price/quality hosting provider I know of (OVH). I doubt you could store ~1TB of metrics going back 4 or 5 years on fast NVMe storage for less than this in the cloud.
I love this part.
In contrast, I barely watch Youtube, so getting premium doesn't make sense and I know that everytime I get an ad Google is getting less money than what I'd need to bid to skip the ad. I'd like to be able to have a money pool to outbid ads that would be shown to me and get a decent experience instead.
In contrast, I barely watch Youtube, so getting premium doesn't make sense and I know that everytime I get an ad Google is getting less money than what I'd need to bid to skip the ad. I'd like to be able to have a money pool to outbid ads that would be shown to me and get a decent experience instead.
Yet, I run a forum with a subscription option to remove ads. About 35% of our traffic blocks ads but we only have a hundred or so subscribers out of 150,000 unique visitors a month with a 40% return visitor rate.
People use lots of arguments on why to block ads and not subscribe at the same time.
People use lots of arguments on why to block ads and not subscribe at the same time.
I can't seem to find the income. Is this listed anywhere or is just the outgoing "open"?
It's not listed in this page because it varies month-by-month, but we publish our yearly books in a lichess blog post and on the government "Journal Officiel":
2022: https://www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr/pages/associations-deta...
2021: https://www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr/pages/associations-deta...
The TL;DR is that donations so far exceed our expenses, thanks to the generosity of our userbase, and thanks to the hundreds of volunteers doing work for free.
2022: https://www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr/pages/associations-deta...
2021: https://www.journal-officiel.gouv.fr/pages/associations-deta...
The TL;DR is that donations so far exceed our expenses, thanks to the generosity of our userbase, and thanks to the hundreds of volunteers doing work for free.
Being honest is if not the best quality a company can have in 21st century.
Interesting to contrast this with their main competitor at Chess.com, which uses AdSense and tracks users with googletagmanager.com, sentry.io, kaxsdc.com, facebook-sdk, and other third-party data sources.
uBlock is cutting off lichess.org's Fastly CDN resources without loss of function, but is otherwise silent. Conversely, uBlock, Ghostery, and PrivacyBadger light up my browser like a Christmas tree when I visit Chess.com.
Yet another reason to prefer Lichess.
uBlock is cutting off lichess.org's Fastly CDN resources without loss of function, but is otherwise silent. Conversely, uBlock, Ghostery, and PrivacyBadger light up my browser like a Christmas tree when I visit Chess.com.
Yet another reason to prefer Lichess.
I agree with this, but I think the impressive part about Lichess is that it's actually full of competitive users.
Chess.com is, by all measures, the "default" chess application. But you still see active GMs and a huge playerbase surrounding Lichess, which enables them to actually have their very open structure + lack of annoying trackers as features worth peering into.
Chess.com is, by all measures, the "default" chess application. But you still see active GMs and a huge playerbase surrounding Lichess, which enables them to actually have their very open structure + lack of annoying trackers as features worth peering into.
And many GM's prefer Lichess, like Hikaru in this clip casually roasting Chess.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWvfOR9MFyc
I’m pretty curious about chess.com’s finances. I wonder how much they’re making from premium accounts vs ads. Can’t seem to find much online since they’re private.
What's the issue with sentry?
Sentry is not a tracker
> It's important to note that blocking ads is NOT theft. Don't fall for this creepy idea, which is the criminalisation of the inalienable right to privacy.
This is something I've never actually focused on but it's wild the amount of people I've installed AdBlock and ublock for who think it's something nefarious.
This is something I've never actually focused on but it's wild the amount of people I've installed AdBlock and ublock for who think it's something nefarious.
Ads and targeted ads aren’t the same thing, so idk if I agree that ad blocking is per se a privacy right.
Practically, of course, it’s a different story.
Practically, of course, it’s a different story.
Untargeted ads are still a security nightmare. Why would I permit loading and executing scripts / resources from arbitrary domains? Ublock is layer 0 defense against malware and viruses.
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Why would an ad need to run a script, use meaningful resources or even be from arbitrary domains?
Those are all practical arguments, but the point I'm making is that advertising doesn't have to be this way; it's the implementation that's the problem, not the theory.
Those are all practical arguments, but the point I'm making is that advertising doesn't have to be this way; it's the implementation that's the problem, not the theory.
paulryanrogers(11)
Lichess is truly amazing.
I am a monthly Lichess donator, and you too can donate via https://lichess.org/patron
I am a monthly Lichess donator, and you too can donate via https://lichess.org/patron
Thibault (the creator of lichess) is a really impressive human being. I don’t idolize people but he is quite inspiring.
There’s an old perpetual chess podcast episode where he said he has never seen a single ad that was useful :-) Which is somewhat extreme and probably hyperbole but still his philosophy is loud and clear.
There’s an old perpetual chess podcast episode where he said he has never seen a single ad that was useful :-) Which is somewhat extreme and probably hyperbole but still his philosophy is loud and clear.
On this subject, I did see an ad for a small music festival near my hometown, and i brought the ticket and had a good time. If i had not seen the add, I would not have known about the festival, so I actually did at least once see a useful ad
I used to hate ads, for the intrusion they made. Then I started to run my own ventures and realised advertising is essential: even finding friends and partners requires advertising of a sort.
But on the web, advertising doesn’t stop at attention theft. Most web ads are agents of surveillance networks, and also are software running on your hardware. Neither we should tolerate.
But on the web, advertising doesn’t stop at attention theft. Most web ads are agents of surveillance networks, and also are software running on your hardware. Neither we should tolerate.
Yeah, I actually went to school for "strategic communication" which was in large part advertising/marketing/PR. I originally had this very naive perspective that these sorts of communication are important and valuable. Which is still true (we all engage in -some- form of self-promotion, even if only in how we choose to present ourselves to others), but with massive asterisks.
In my ideal, advertising and marketing are about really understanding what the other party needs and finding a truly mutually beneficial agreement that actually generates value through exchange (A has X but values Y more highly, B has Y but values X more highly, simply by the act of exchange, value is generated).
I was even pro-tracking at one point because the more you know about people, the better you can understand their needs so the better you can offer them something they'll value. In the abstract, I still think there's something here. But it has to be done responsibly and with a user-before-profit mindset.
By contrast, ad companies have time and again proven themselves irresponsible with this information, e.g. selling it to shady groups.
In my ideal, advertising and marketing are about really understanding what the other party needs and finding a truly mutually beneficial agreement that actually generates value through exchange (A has X but values Y more highly, B has Y but values X more highly, simply by the act of exchange, value is generated).
I was even pro-tracking at one point because the more you know about people, the better you can understand their needs so the better you can offer them something they'll value. In the abstract, I still think there's something here. But it has to be done responsibly and with a user-before-profit mindset.
By contrast, ad companies have time and again proven themselves irresponsible with this information, e.g. selling it to shady groups.
> I started to run my own ventures and realised advertising is essential
There are ethical ways to go about it. In certain contexts, what people think of as advertising is really just information. It's totally fine to inform people when they ask for it.
When people open a store app, it's because they want to see products. There's no ethical conflict when the store app does what people want it to do. What's unethical is the constant product spam when people are trying to do anything else.
There are ethical ways to go about it. In certain contexts, what people think of as advertising is really just information. It's totally fine to inform people when they ask for it.
When people open a store app, it's because they want to see products. There's no ethical conflict when the store app does what people want it to do. What's unethical is the constant product spam when people are trying to do anything else.
How’d you get the ad? It seems like something that could be posted on a coffee shop bulletin board for example, or placed in the culture section of a local newspaper. In other words, environment and location are all that are really needed, we wouldn’t need to send somebody to stalk you (like Facebook or Google) in order to show you this ad.
Ads are only good for things with broad appeal like that.
Ads are only good for things with broad appeal like that.
I got the ad on instagram.
I agree that it could be posted somewhere locally in the real world, and it may have been, but the interesting part is that I dont live in my hometown anymore, even though I travel there frequently. I live in another country, 4 hours away, so I would have never seen a real world ad. Only instagram and all the data they connected about me knew my ties to my hometown and my interest in the music hence they showed the ad.
I agree on all the stalking points and I dont like that they have all this data, but this one time it was useful, i can not deny that.
I agree that it could be posted somewhere locally in the real world, and it may have been, but the interesting part is that I dont live in my hometown anymore, even though I travel there frequently. I live in another country, 4 hours away, so I would have never seen a real world ad. Only instagram and all the data they connected about me knew my ties to my hometown and my interest in the music hence they showed the ad.
I agree on all the stalking points and I dont like that they have all this data, but this one time it was useful, i can not deny that.
> Which is somewhat extreme and probably hyperbole but still his philosophy is loud and clear.
Is it? I wish online ads that make it through would target me well.
yes, I use adblockers and I opt out of data collection. But any old-school advertisement such as print, TV, billboard, and prospect ads feel more targeted / relevant to me and guide me to a sales funnel than online ads.
Is it? I wish online ads that make it through would target me well.
yes, I use adblockers and I opt out of data collection. But any old-school advertisement such as print, TV, billboard, and prospect ads feel more targeted / relevant to me and guide me to a sales funnel than online ads.
Not once did I win an iPod for punching the monkey.
I wish there was legislation to prevent TV manufacturers from turning TV's into ad-spewing digital signage in your home. It's completely out of control.
Yes, sure, you can, in some cases, plug in an external streaming device and, depending on the system, side step their incredibly abusive home screens full of ads and tracking. This might not be 100% possible on all devices. More importantly, you paid good money for a TV. You bought a TV, not a surveillance device and digital ad system to hang on your wall.
I am not one for heavy-handed government regulation, yet, this is so far out of control that it likely needs it.
The reason this is serious is because consumers have no control whatsoever. Also, most consumers have no idea what's going on. I have watch people innocently use home screens to search or click on things they don't know are ads. When you explain it to them, for the most part, they are incredulous. In a lot of cases they dismiss it with comebacks such as "you are just being paranoid", etc.
Companies like Vizio have introduced features where you get to upload your pictures to their servers to then share with others. Their TOS very clearly states they retain the right to effectively use those pictures as they see fit, including having employees look at them, and more. This is just crazy. People have no idea what is being done to them.
I highlight this because browsers on computers receive a lot of attention, while, TV's seem to be in this wild west mode where the manufacturers do anything they want with every update. Since you cannot install software to block anything, they are free to abuse and monitor your entire family as they please. This is wrong.
Yes, sure, you can, in some cases, plug in an external streaming device and, depending on the system, side step their incredibly abusive home screens full of ads and tracking. This might not be 100% possible on all devices. More importantly, you paid good money for a TV. You bought a TV, not a surveillance device and digital ad system to hang on your wall.
I am not one for heavy-handed government regulation, yet, this is so far out of control that it likely needs it.
The reason this is serious is because consumers have no control whatsoever. Also, most consumers have no idea what's going on. I have watch people innocently use home screens to search or click on things they don't know are ads. When you explain it to them, for the most part, they are incredulous. In a lot of cases they dismiss it with comebacks such as "you are just being paranoid", etc.
Companies like Vizio have introduced features where you get to upload your pictures to their servers to then share with others. Their TOS very clearly states they retain the right to effectively use those pictures as they see fit, including having employees look at them, and more. This is just crazy. People have no idea what is being done to them.
I highlight this because browsers on computers receive a lot of attention, while, TV's seem to be in this wild west mode where the manufacturers do anything they want with every update. Since you cannot install software to block anything, they are free to abuse and monitor your entire family as they please. This is wrong.
>More importantly, you paid good money for a TV.
I doubt it. The profit margins on TVs are tiny, with some even negative with the hopes that the advertising revenues put them in the positive in the long run.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/VZIO/vizio-holding...
Maybe the high end OLED TVs from Sony/Samsung/LG that sell for $1,500+ earn some money, but otherwise, it is a pretty cutthroat business that is not likely to earn you any money. As evidenced by the fact that only a few companies even bother being in the business, with no new entrants.
I doubt it. The profit margins on TVs are tiny, with some even negative with the hopes that the advertising revenues put them in the positive in the long run.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/VZIO/vizio-holding...
Maybe the high end OLED TVs from Sony/Samsung/LG that sell for $1,500+ earn some money, but otherwise, it is a pretty cutthroat business that is not likely to earn you any money. As evidenced by the fact that only a few companies even bother being in the business, with no new entrants.
I can think of plenty of new entrants in the last two decades:
HiSense TCL Vizio BenQ
Vizio has a 17% gross margin. Just because they mismanage their money doesn't mean I have to put up with their sob stories about not making $$.
HiSense TCL Vizio BenQ
Vizio has a 17% gross margin. Just because they mismanage their money doesn't mean I have to put up with their sob stories about not making $$.
Gross margin is not relevant here, profit margin is.
Benq is qisda, and it is a very established ODM/OEM. They have a measly profit margin of 3%. But they also sell a lot of other electronics than just TVs.
Hisense has been selling TVs since the 1980s, and has a 6% profit margin, although I don’t know how trustworthy the Chinese financial figures are. But they also sell a lot of other non TV items.
TCL is relatively new, although they started LCDs more than 15 years ago. But again, they sell more than just TVs. They have the highest profit margin at 10.7%, assuming their numbers are correct.
Vizio seems like the best company to see how much selling TVs earns.
https://www.consumerreports.org/electronics-computers/tvs/tv...
>“For many years, TV making was limited to the few large consumer-electronics companies that could afford the investment,” says Paul Gagnon, senior research director for consumer devices at Omdia, a market research firm. But then it became easier to source components, which in turn increased competition and lowered pricing and profits. “For some brands,” he says, “the TV business here in the States was not profitable anymore.”
>Companies including JVC, Magnavox/Philips, and Toshiba exited the U.S. market, licensing or selling their brands to companies in China, Taiwan, and elsewhere looking to break into the U.S. market.
Benq is qisda, and it is a very established ODM/OEM. They have a measly profit margin of 3%. But they also sell a lot of other electronics than just TVs.
Hisense has been selling TVs since the 1980s, and has a 6% profit margin, although I don’t know how trustworthy the Chinese financial figures are. But they also sell a lot of other non TV items.
TCL is relatively new, although they started LCDs more than 15 years ago. But again, they sell more than just TVs. They have the highest profit margin at 10.7%, assuming their numbers are correct.
Vizio seems like the best company to see how much selling TVs earns.
https://www.consumerreports.org/electronics-computers/tvs/tv...
>“For many years, TV making was limited to the few large consumer-electronics companies that could afford the investment,” says Paul Gagnon, senior research director for consumer devices at Omdia, a market research firm. But then it became easier to source components, which in turn increased competition and lowered pricing and profits. “For some brands,” he says, “the TV business here in the States was not profitable anymore.”
>Companies including JVC, Magnavox/Philips, and Toshiba exited the U.S. market, licensing or selling their brands to companies in China, Taiwan, and elsewhere looking to break into the U.S. market.
I think that LG, Sony and Samsung are doing fine making TVs, perhaps for the lower end, the influx of cheaper sets is pressuring profit margins for this segment.
And gross margin is very relevant. Vizio is spending a lot of money either on general expenses, debt, administrative expenses etc. If you compare LG Display to Vizio, Vizio is spending 2x on Selling General and Administrative expenses. If they matched LG, that's an additional $130M in annual profits.
And gross margin is very relevant. Vizio is spending a lot of money either on general expenses, debt, administrative expenses etc. If you compare LG Display to Vizio, Vizio is spending 2x on Selling General and Administrative expenses. If they matched LG, that's an additional $130M in annual profits.
Why would it be profits? LG display loses money every year.
https://www.lgdisplay.com/eng/company/investment/finance
How do you know which expenses outside of gross profit are necessary and not necessary? You don’t, so all you can do is look at net income / profit margin trends across many years for many businesses. If they are all low, then that means there is not much juice to squeeze.
https://www.lgdisplay.com/eng/company/investment/finance
How do you know which expenses outside of gross profit are necessary and not necessary? You don’t, so all you can do is look at net income / profit margin trends across many years for many businesses. If they are all low, then that means there is not much juice to squeeze.
I use plex on apple tv and i guess i rarely see a promo at the top of the apple tv when i rarely happen upon the home screen. and plex bugs me to upgrade to premium for stuff i don't need rarely. but other than that it's an ad-free experience (minus product placements) that i really enjoy.
Yeah, this is a serious problem with modern TVs. I've read that LG panels can be hacked but that was years ago. Maybe they patched whatever vulnerability was being exploited.
I love their stance on adblockers and privacy. It's exactly how I feel and I refuse to have them in my home or on my devices. I also love how they go the extra mile to show people how to implement common adblocking techniques.
Is BlockBear a good solution on iOS? I switched to iOS from Android because they were the only ones making a good, small-ish phone (on Android, I'd just use Firefox and uBlock Origin), but I had no idea what ad blocker to pick. What I have kinda works, but I do still see ads sometimes, and the app seems kinda skeevy. Would be happy to try something else if it is recommended.
Use Adguard for Safari and install an adblocking DNS service profile. This combo is the best for iOS user.
You can also use DNSCloak, which can act as a VPN, and proxy all DNS requests to a trusted DoH server, like AdGuard.
BlockBear is so outdated (last update was 5 years ago) that I have no idea how it can be recommended.
I personally use AdGuard in combination with Ghostery (but I also run PiHole, which I’m connected to all the time).
I personally use AdGuard in combination with Ghostery (but I also run PiHole, which I’m connected to all the time).
I use 1Blocker and love it.
Yep 1Blocker is good, simple, and does Safari and DNS filtering. Devs are fairly responsive.
Adguard (which lichess lists on their site) has an iOS app also that can do Safari and DNS filtering as well.
Adguard (which lichess lists on their site) has an iOS app also that can do Safari and DNS filtering as well.
> Tracking sells our personal information to increase advertisement effectiveness
Saying this downplays the invasiveness and threat. That's not the only purpose.
Saying this downplays the invasiveness and threat. That's not the only purpose.
The manifesto at the end is a thing of beauty. Cuts through the crap and really gets to the point.
Lichess and it's author are so cool that I subscribed to monthly donation even though it gives me literally nothing.
ornicar if you're reading this, just know we all love you.
Trivia: Lidraughts was created taking inspiration from Lichess, and this is acknowledged in https://lidraughts.org/about. In the spirit of Lichess, they too keep the source open and avoid serving ads. Draughts, unfortunately, does not enjoy the same status or fanfare as chess and seems to have more following in poorer countries (except for Netherlands and Russia). I feel that it needs all the help it can get, and Lidraughts is a big relief.
I see Frysk is on there. That game is wild.
For the safari folks I've found Wipr to be very good. I just use the basic DNS block list and it ends up catching mostly everything while being super light and not changing the website I'm viewing in any way.
Why do so many fail to also mention Pi-Hole? :(
Maybe it's a bit too much for non-tech savy users
Did you know Lichess is built in Scala 3 ;-)
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I already had massive respect for Lichess but this is just incredible. I wish them all the success in the world.
We need more Lichess' in the world!
can't wait for the Lichess for the Go world
I like this.
kevincox(6)
> These don't benefit us, the website users, in any way
Except for, you know, allowing those websites to exist in the first place? Ads and data are nothing but a form of payment, the gold or salt of the internet age.
The alternative to ads isn't no ads, it's paywalls and subscriptions. If ads didn't exist or weren't as accurate as they can be with invasive tracking, we'd have far less content out there, and most of the existing content would be locked behind paywalls, making search engines even more useless than they already are. There would be no free video hosting on Youtube, no free music on Spotify, no free educational resources for those who can't afford books, and calling your friends on another continent would still be a few dollars per minute. The internet would be a much sadder place even if you were rich, and almost completely inaccessible to you if you were poor (or a teenager without a bank account / a resident of a sanctioned country / an undocumented and unbanked immigrant.)
Ad Blocking is a "tragedy of the commons" problem, your internet experience is better if you do it than if you don't, but if 100% of users were to start successfully blocking ads everywhere, the experience for those same users would quickly degrade.
Except for, you know, allowing those websites to exist in the first place? Ads and data are nothing but a form of payment, the gold or salt of the internet age.
The alternative to ads isn't no ads, it's paywalls and subscriptions. If ads didn't exist or weren't as accurate as they can be with invasive tracking, we'd have far less content out there, and most of the existing content would be locked behind paywalls, making search engines even more useless than they already are. There would be no free video hosting on Youtube, no free music on Spotify, no free educational resources for those who can't afford books, and calling your friends on another continent would still be a few dollars per minute. The internet would be a much sadder place even if you were rich, and almost completely inaccessible to you if you were poor (or a teenager without a bank account / a resident of a sanctioned country / an undocumented and unbanked immigrant.)
Ad Blocking is a "tragedy of the commons" problem, your internet experience is better if you do it than if you don't, but if 100% of users were to start successfully blocking ads everywhere, the experience for those same users would quickly degrade.
Whatever. Let those spammy ad-funded web sites die. Nothing of value will be lost. It won't kill the web, it will fix it. Everyone should do their part to fix the web by driving advertising profits to zero.
The web was supposed to have real web sites made by real humans who actually have something to say. Not all this worthless ad impression maximizing clickbait spam. Remember, people used to pay for servers just to make their texts available over the internet. No one paid them for it.
The web was supposed to have real web sites made by real humans who actually have something to say. Not all this worthless ad impression maximizing clickbait spam. Remember, people used to pay for servers just to make their texts available over the internet. No one paid them for it.
This is clearly not true; Wikipedia isn't ad supported and is incredibly successful and prolific. You can use educational tools like WolframAlpha freely and pay (using a normal subscription model) for its more advanced features, no advertising required. KhanAcademy is completely free (yes I know they host many of their videos on YouTube; that's a minority of the content on KA these days and I suspect would be a relatively minor hosting cost at this point based on how tiny and easy to compress their video presentation style is).
The internet would be different, yes. We'd probably see much less of a gold-rush than we've historically seen. I think it would still be just as much of a treasure in learning and communication as it is today though.
The internet would be different, yes. We'd probably see much less of a gold-rush than we've historically seen. I think it would still be just as much of a treasure in learning and communication as it is today though.
Wikipedia has a somewhat unique architecture in that it's mostly text and most of that text can be cached. This is also true about blogs and sites like HN and Stackoverflow, but not social media sites, search engines, messaging services, video and image hosting sites etc.
Most Wikipedia visitors use an ad-supported search engine to find articles. All that Wikipedia itself needs to do is to find the URL in their cache and send the pre-rendered HTML page. For many requests, there are no SQL queries to execute and there's no PHP Wikimedia code to run, it's just finding some HTML in a glorified key-value store. There's relatively little code to run and relatively little bandwidth required, so the cost-per-user isn't that high. There's also very little technical innovation, the core problem has been solved and the community is just adding more content. Same goes for HN and Stackoverflow.
Not all websites can operate that way. Search engines need lots of compute for indexing and search, and lots of developers to fight SEO spam. Not all searches can even be cached, "nearby Sushi restaurants" needs to return results based on your location etc. Social media websites spend a lot of money on moderation, and all their users are logged in, giving them far fewer opportunities for caching. Pushing a Taylor Swift tweet to all her followers in almost real time is definitely no small feat. Messaging apps need to deal with a lot of push notifications and a much higher proportion of writes to reads (when compared to Wikipedia), also moderation, fighting bots etc. Video and image hosting websites need much more bandwidth and storage (and possibly compute for transcoding), and those aren't free.
The non-profit, no ads, free-for-all model just doesn't work that well for this kind of platforms.
Most Wikipedia visitors use an ad-supported search engine to find articles. All that Wikipedia itself needs to do is to find the URL in their cache and send the pre-rendered HTML page. For many requests, there are no SQL queries to execute and there's no PHP Wikimedia code to run, it's just finding some HTML in a glorified key-value store. There's relatively little code to run and relatively little bandwidth required, so the cost-per-user isn't that high. There's also very little technical innovation, the core problem has been solved and the community is just adding more content. Same goes for HN and Stackoverflow.
Not all websites can operate that way. Search engines need lots of compute for indexing and search, and lots of developers to fight SEO spam. Not all searches can even be cached, "nearby Sushi restaurants" needs to return results based on your location etc. Social media websites spend a lot of money on moderation, and all their users are logged in, giving them far fewer opportunities for caching. Pushing a Taylor Swift tweet to all her followers in almost real time is definitely no small feat. Messaging apps need to deal with a lot of push notifications and a much higher proportion of writes to reads (when compared to Wikipedia), also moderation, fighting bots etc. Video and image hosting websites need much more bandwidth and storage (and possibly compute for transcoding), and those aren't free.
The non-profit, no ads, free-for-all model just doesn't work that well for this kind of platforms.
> Most Wikipedia visitors use an ad-supported search engine to find articles.
Because Google spends billions of dollars contorting and manipulating the entire internet ecosystem to only work with Google's model of the internet.
There are really simple solutions how the internet can be ad free and function much better than it does today in terms of serving information people. The internet is far, far worse due to the financial incentives involved
Because Google spends billions of dollars contorting and manipulating the entire internet ecosystem to only work with Google's model of the internet.
There are really simple solutions how the internet can be ad free and function much better than it does today in terms of serving information people. The internet is far, far worse due to the financial incentives involved
In an alternate world where ad funded sites never took off...
Taylor Swift could publish an RSS feed, or pay Twitter since it's basically a marketing channel for her. Messaging apps could have been p2p (and maybe ISPs would've had a reason to get ipv6 working since otherwise you'd hear "IM doesn't work on Cox" etc. Or maybe ISPs could provide federated chat gateways like they did with email). ISPs might bundle hosting (they used to), or Microsoft would have had a reason to have built Personal Web Server into something everyone uses today. Maybe people would share viral videos they liked on something like gnutella using magnet links from forums.
It might not work for companies trying to corral the entire world onto their platform, but maybe that model isn't very good.
Taylor Swift could publish an RSS feed, or pay Twitter since it's basically a marketing channel for her. Messaging apps could have been p2p (and maybe ISPs would've had a reason to get ipv6 working since otherwise you'd hear "IM doesn't work on Cox" etc. Or maybe ISPs could provide federated chat gateways like they did with email). ISPs might bundle hosting (they used to), or Microsoft would have had a reason to have built Personal Web Server into something everyone uses today. Maybe people would share viral videos they liked on something like gnutella using magnet links from forums.
It might not work for companies trying to corral the entire world onto their platform, but maybe that model isn't very good.
> The alternative to ads isn't no ads, it's paywalls and subscriptions.
Great. An alternative is an honest way to conduct business. We'll take it.
We could get rid of all that click-bait AI-generate crap and not waste everyone's time, among tons of other benefits.
Great. An alternative is an honest way to conduct business. We'll take it.
We could get rid of all that click-bait AI-generate crap and not waste everyone's time, among tons of other benefits.
>The alternative to ads isn't no ads, it's paywalls and subscriptions.
You do realize Lichess is free has no adds / paywalls or subscription ?
You do realize Lichess is free has no adds / paywalls or subscription ?
My favorite part of Lichess is their open financials. Check it out: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Si3PMUJGR9KrpE5lngSk...
If you want to know the exact amount to donate to offset your gameplay - you can actually do that.