Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice(jamanetwork.com)
jamanetwork.com
Brain waves appear to wash out waste during sleep in mice
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2816616
269 comments
It makes me sad as my SO struggles a lot with sleep. It's been years since she's had a good nights sleep.
Sadly her issues are mostly psychologically rooted due to past trauma, while all the treatments seem to be geared towards "simple" physical issues. She's tried contacting various sleep clinics here and they've all said they can't help.
She struggles a lot with falling asleep, she's exceptionally sensitive to sound and vibration while trying to sleep or sleeping, and if she falls asleep she almost always have nightmares, which significantly reduces the quality of the sleep even if they don't always wake her up.
One issue is that when you're that close to the limit of what is no longer bearable, it's hard to just try things. For example, I've been thinking exposure therapy might help for her sound and light sensitivity, but she's not convinced it'll help and doesn't want to try potentially sleeping even worse for many weeks. Which I understand, but...
Sadly her issues are mostly psychologically rooted due to past trauma, while all the treatments seem to be geared towards "simple" physical issues. She's tried contacting various sleep clinics here and they've all said they can't help.
She struggles a lot with falling asleep, she's exceptionally sensitive to sound and vibration while trying to sleep or sleeping, and if she falls asleep she almost always have nightmares, which significantly reduces the quality of the sleep even if they don't always wake her up.
One issue is that when you're that close to the limit of what is no longer bearable, it's hard to just try things. For example, I've been thinking exposure therapy might help for her sound and light sensitivity, but she's not convinced it'll help and doesn't want to try potentially sleeping even worse for many weeks. Which I understand, but...
I’ve been watching a lot of healthy gamer youtube channel, the host likes to really geek out on brain science. One of the big take aways I’ve gotten watching him, is that sleep serves a layered purpose psychologically (and physically as per this article), that you work through social problems, then physical problems, then consolidating memory, sort of in that order.
One of the study tricks that the host figured out, was that if you want to memorize something, you should get rid of all the other things you don’t want to learn, and that journaling is amazingly good at that. Basically if you write down all the things you don’t want to remember, it sort of leaves space to move things to long term memory.
I say all this, because I’ve been experimenting with journaling at night, and it really helps with some of the restless nights where it feels like something is keeping me awake. It’s not a magic bullet, and it takes effort, but it may help to write down the things bothering your partner prior to sleep to allow for some of the ”less important” processes to happen.
One of the study tricks that the host figured out, was that if you want to memorize something, you should get rid of all the other things you don’t want to learn, and that journaling is amazingly good at that. Basically if you write down all the things you don’t want to remember, it sort of leaves space to move things to long term memory.
I say all this, because I’ve been experimenting with journaling at night, and it really helps with some of the restless nights where it feels like something is keeping me awake. It’s not a magic bullet, and it takes effort, but it may help to write down the things bothering your partner prior to sleep to allow for some of the ”less important” processes to happen.
Learning to control your dreams is what I did with my nightmares, at some point it becomes so easy you can do it on command but... It doesn't always work and requires extra energy to stay in control often leaving me falling asleep in my dreams which ironically means I don't sleep well. And there are still nightmares I get, just had one a few days ago that left me too afraid to sleep again. Still, I think it's overall a good long term skill about building mental awareness. I learned it as a child on my own, and I believe adults can also learn it by simply studying their environment often and looking if anything else is amiss or "unrealistic". Sometimes you can also ask yourself questions before bed, and try to use visualization before sleeping or sleeping to sound or audiobooks to help you relax too. My family has a history of being more prone to spiritual and psychology issues so bring aware of family history can also sometimes make you idk feel less alone too. Just being able to shift the narrative can mean a lot and give you power when you feel powerless sometimes, but it can be tough to get there but baby steps can make a huge difference. Something I personally did as a child when I felt afraid was to visualize a golden warm light around me almost like a bubble, it didn't always work but I guess it helped to get away from negative thoughts by trying to focus on something protective for me. Soft repetition also seems helpful because it's predictable so perhaps finding something predictable may help too. And maybe looking into CPTSD.
I know you've probably already tried lots of things, and you're also inundated with ideas from others, but:
Here's a psychiatrist's guide to solving insomnia: https://lorienpsych.com/2021/01/02/insomnia/
And here's a psychiatrist's guide to solving nightmares: https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/peer-review-nightmares
Prazosin is the standard drug for PTSD-related nightmares: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prazosin
Here's a psychiatrist's guide to solving insomnia: https://lorienpsych.com/2021/01/02/insomnia/
And here's a psychiatrist's guide to solving nightmares: https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/peer-review-nightmares
Prazosin is the standard drug for PTSD-related nightmares: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prazosin
I'd be careful with Prazosin. Awful few weeks of violent and suicidal thoughts before it mellowed out into an emotionally zombified plateau, then I quit it. Cured my PTSD though.
She should try ketamine. Sounds like it’s exactly what you say, past trauma, that’s holding her back from a good nights sleep. Ketamine has done wonders for someone I love and I would wholeheartedly recommend it. The person in my life who benefited greatly from it only needed one weekend (2 relatively low to medium dose sessions of ketamine) and she was cured of her ptsd.
Also strongly recommend weighted blankets, especially for someone like your SO.
All the best eh
Also strongly recommend weighted blankets, especially for someone like your SO.
All the best eh
We've investigated ketamine treatment, which does indeed sound very interesting. However very few clinics here that offer it, though it seems to have improved recently. Definitely will follow up on this.
I’m from Canada but still I went to one in Iowa, called Driftless Integrative Psychiatry. I can whole heartedly recommend it, the therapist is an absolute gem of a human being. It’s maybe on the bit more expensive side but it was a one off expense and has been one of the best decisions we’ve ever made.
There’s lots popping up now though. Even in Canada I thought we’d have trouble getting support from our family doctor but she was actually supportive so now if we look to do any more can just get referral from the GP here and do it in toronto.
Definitely do hope you give it a try, might be just what your SO has been looking for. Also seriously don’t discount the weighted blanket!
There’s lots popping up now though. Even in Canada I thought we’d have trouble getting support from our family doctor but she was actually supportive so now if we look to do any more can just get referral from the GP here and do it in toronto.
Definitely do hope you give it a try, might be just what your SO has been looking for. Also seriously don’t discount the weighted blanket!
Look up Spravato. They are also online doctors. And there are similar DIY methods you can grow at home if you're ambitious.
No promises it'll help, though. But hope feels good by itself sometimes.
No promises it'll help, though. But hope feels good by itself sometimes.
You just need one clinic there that offers it. Why is the relative number relevant?
Few clinics means limited number of openings.
I'm sad that you were downvoted. I've suffered from depression episodes throughout my life, which could often lead to a "doom loop" of waking up every night between 2-3 AM (early morning waking is a common feature of depression), and then the insomnia made my depression worse.
I had been in therapy for nearly 15 years, and I while I wasn't on antidepressants long term, I had taken them for a couple episodes in the past. For my most recent episode (partially brought on by a particularly bad prolonged string of insomnia) I was having constant suicidal thoughts. I went in and had a ketamine session - I'm reluctant to talk to much about the details of my ketamine trip, because one theory I have for why it worked well for me is that I didn't have any preconceived notions about what I'd experience, and I specifically didn't want to get my hopes up.
The next morning I was singing in the shower. If there was ever a substance that I believed "miracle drug" fit the bill, for me it was ketamine. It helped me develop a whole new outlook on life and how I related to myself. I know that I was very lucky (my psychiatrist says I am a "ketamine responder") and not everyone has that same response. For me, though, I firmly believe ketamine treatment saved my life.
I had been in therapy for nearly 15 years, and I while I wasn't on antidepressants long term, I had taken them for a couple episodes in the past. For my most recent episode (partially brought on by a particularly bad prolonged string of insomnia) I was having constant suicidal thoughts. I went in and had a ketamine session - I'm reluctant to talk to much about the details of my ketamine trip, because one theory I have for why it worked well for me is that I didn't have any preconceived notions about what I'd experience, and I specifically didn't want to get my hopes up.
The next morning I was singing in the shower. If there was ever a substance that I believed "miracle drug" fit the bill, for me it was ketamine. It helped me develop a whole new outlook on life and how I related to myself. I know that I was very lucky (my psychiatrist says I am a "ketamine responder") and not everyone has that same response. For me, though, I firmly believe ketamine treatment saved my life.
Sounds so hard.
I’ve experienced that a moderate or intense exercise regimen can help a lot with sleep.
If she hasn’t tried therapies directed at trauma and recovery that may also be helpful.
I’ve experienced that a moderate or intense exercise regimen can help a lot with sleep.
If she hasn’t tried therapies directed at trauma and recovery that may also be helpful.
It's brutal.
She did start exercising some years ago, and it did improve. But then real-life issues triggers her anxiety and it's back to square one.
She's tried therapy for a long time with little result. She's very smart, but most likely has ADHD, so for example mindfulness and similar doesn't seem to work well (either "boring" so she loses focus, or too "obvious" without actionable content).
Though we recently found a therapist which she really resonated with. It's slow work but I think it's been helping.
She did start exercising some years ago, and it did improve. But then real-life issues triggers her anxiety and it's back to square one.
She's tried therapy for a long time with little result. She's very smart, but most likely has ADHD, so for example mindfulness and similar doesn't seem to work well (either "boring" so she loses focus, or too "obvious" without actionable content).
Though we recently found a therapist which she really resonated with. It's slow work but I think it's been helping.
> she's exceptionally sensitive to sound and vibration
I'm assuming you've tried ~everything already, but just in case: Have you tried white noise yet? Your brain is very good at filtering it out after listening to it for a while, but it'll still drown out other noises.
I'm assuming you've tried ~everything already, but just in case: Have you tried white noise yet? Your brain is very good at filtering it out after listening to it for a while, but it'll still drown out other noises.
The low frequency sounds she's triggered by have a tendency to cut through. But can't hurt to try again.
On the off chance you haven’t explored it, I would recommend looking into EMDR therapy. It made an incredible difference in my PTSD.
Thanks, that one hadn't popped up on our radar before.
Yeah if it's contact sound there's not a great deal you can do unfortunately
Sounds too simple but high doses of vitamin C before sleep removed all of my stress induced nightmares.
Interesting, most sources I could find say vitamin C should make you less sleepy.
How healthy is she in general? Does she eat well? Exercise? Have a consistent night routing? Has she tried melatonin? What about sleep apnea?
If she's sensitive to sound and light, what has she tried to address that? Like blackout curtains?
I find it a bit odd that sleep clinics would turn her away so readily.
I understand the struggle though which is why I asked so many questions, because all of these things have factored into my quest for better sleep. The psychological stuff is hard.
If she's sensitive to sound and light, what has she tried to address that? Like blackout curtains?
I find it a bit odd that sleep clinics would turn her away so readily.
I understand the struggle though which is why I asked so many questions, because all of these things have factored into my quest for better sleep. The psychological stuff is hard.
> I find it a bit odd that sleep clinics would turn her away so readily.
I don't. I've had significant problems with insomnia in the past, and in general I've found that sleep clinics really only focus on two issues:
1. Restless leg syndrome
2. Sleep Apnea
Beyond that, there really isn't much they can do besides (1) recommending standard "sleep hygiene" stuff, or (2) drugs, which all come with various tradeoffs.
I don't. I've had significant problems with insomnia in the past, and in general I've found that sleep clinics really only focus on two issues:
1. Restless leg syndrome
2. Sleep Apnea
Beyond that, there really isn't much they can do besides (1) recommending standard "sleep hygiene" stuff, or (2) drugs, which all come with various tradeoffs.
Yes, healthy, eats well and exercises daily, has blackout curtains and sleeps with plugs. No apnea.
As sibling reply says, clinics seem to treat sleep apnea and similar direct physical causes, as well as provide very basic information.
She got a referral from her doctor but all the ones she contacted were very clear they couldn't do anything for her so wouldn't even take her in for observation.
As sibling reply says, clinics seem to treat sleep apnea and similar direct physical causes, as well as provide very basic information.
She got a referral from her doctor but all the ones she contacted were very clear they couldn't do anything for her so wouldn't even take her in for observation.
Bad gut health screwed up my sleep, after working on it it got better.
But if im not careful with what I eat, my sleep quality is screwed again
While I don't doubt that for a second, she's had her issues before when she didn't care too much about what she ate, compared to last few years where she's been actively eating healthy.
There's certainly a correlation for my self though.
There's certainly a correlation for my self though.
Promethazine (1) helps some people, myself included (UK Sominex). And occasionally, phenibut.
(1) https://www.inhousepharmacy.vu/p-1189-phenergan-tablets-25mg...
(1) https://www.inhousepharmacy.vu/p-1189-phenergan-tablets-25mg...
1st gen antihistamines = dementia, phenibut = the worst withdrawal mankind has to offer
Promethazine the Proud! Flamer of Flames! Gayest of Gallopers!!!
Sounds like the name of a Centaur Character in any D&D style game.
Sounds like the name of a Centaur Character in any D&D style game.
You had "Phenibut" right there and you went with Promethazine?
(sorry - but I am not sure if you are making a ref I dont get but "Promethezine" is the actual name of the pharma-thingy...
If you made a popculture ref, I miss...
:-) aleays participate though
If you made a popculture ref, I miss...
:-) aleays participate though
Has she tried cannabis? It prevents dream memory formation and can help with nightmares
Not yet. It's not legal here yet, though recently it's softening up.
But we've talked about it, though mostly to reduce her anxiety. If it can help with nightmares as well, then would indeed be quite interesting.
But we've talked about it, though mostly to reduce her anxiety. If it can help with nightmares as well, then would indeed be quite interesting.
+1 to this. As a long time cannabis user who is quite skeptical of many of the purported health benefits, this is one I’m not at all skeptical about. It’s actually just the other side of the coin of the degraded short/mid term memory that is a well known downside of habitual cannabis use. But as someone with frequent, vivid nightmares when I’m sober, I can attest that cannabis effectively blocks my ability to remember most dreams - which again is a mixed bag, as I enjoy recalling happy or neutral dream, but when I’m stressed being able to basically opt out of vivid nightmares is a huge boon.
I'm also a long time cannabis user and can't remember dreams at all with THC in my system. I'll vape/smoke/eat edibles daily for weeks or months at a time, then stop cold turkey. A few days after I stop, my dreams become super clear and vivid, and I remember most of the dream in great detail for days. This happens almost every night for the next week or 2 after stopping. It always happens every time I stop. Been doing this for years and I always look forward to stopping cold turkey so I can have those super vivid dreams.
I really enjoy the experience, but granted, none of the dreams were nightmares. I wonder if this happens to other people, and how badly it could affect people who use cannabis to suppress recurring nightmares.
I really enjoy the experience, but granted, none of the dreams were nightmares. I wonder if this happens to other people, and how badly it could affect people who use cannabis to suppress recurring nightmares.
In my experience you need a pretty high tolerance and smoke pretty regularly for it to start preventing dreaming. When I intentionally reduced my tolerance to very low levels I started having dreams again.
The reason you don't dream is it prevents the rem cycle. It might help in falling asleep but your sleep quality suffers.
i mean if you are consuming daily in the evenings you will develop a high tolerance
As someone with a tolerance, I've learned that consuming too close to bedtime will cause me to have difficulty falling asleep, and also not enter REM sleep.
However, by consuming throughout the day on a daily basis but stopping by late afternoon or early evening, my sleep and dreaming is vastly improved.
However, by consuming throughout the day on a daily basis but stopping by late afternoon or early evening, my sleep and dreaming is vastly improved.
This was how I functioned before I intentionally dropped my tolerance down to very low levels. With a lower tolerance I can enjoy the ganj as a nightcap and have all my dreams :)
If the problem is psychological trauma, wouldn’t therapy be the obvious solution?
The root cause is psychological, but it's manifested itself in physical changes. She's hyper-sensitive to certain sounds for example, which causes her to not be able to fall asleep, or to abruptly wake up. Mostly low frequency sounds, so hard to block.
But yeah, as I mention in a reply to a sibling comment, she's tried therapy for years without much progress, though recently making some progress on that front.
But yeah, as I mention in a reply to a sibling comment, she's tried therapy for years without much progress, though recently making some progress on that front.
I know it really sucks and have struggled with it myself for a long time. Two things really worked for me.
Try these: https://www.loopearplugs.com/products/quiet
And at the same time have some calming barely perceptible background noise from a speaker somewhere in the room. White noise, brown noise, lofi, whatever works. Make sure the bedroom has blackout curtains and soft light.
As for cannabis, she doesn't have to smoke it. Appropriate edibles will knock her to sleep. Doesn't have to be a permanent thing either, breaking the cycle and getting good sleep for a few weeks is life changing and may be the start of a virtuous cycle instead.
I recommend both of you enjoy this video together: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK2iXQm4LJs
Good luck!
Try these: https://www.loopearplugs.com/products/quiet
And at the same time have some calming barely perceptible background noise from a speaker somewhere in the room. White noise, brown noise, lofi, whatever works. Make sure the bedroom has blackout curtains and soft light.
As for cannabis, she doesn't have to smoke it. Appropriate edibles will knock her to sleep. Doesn't have to be a permanent thing either, breaking the cycle and getting good sleep for a few weeks is life changing and may be the start of a virtuous cycle instead.
I recommend both of you enjoy this video together: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mK2iXQm4LJs
Good luck!
As someone who was diagnosed with severe ADHD 20 years ago, marijuana makes my brain far more active. If if I have an edible around 5pm, I won’t sleep until 1am (I normally go to sleep by 9/9:30). I constantly want to do things. For me, weed is an upper.
My wife and my girlfriend are both jealous of the effect it has on me. But I’m jealous on the sleep-inducing or calming effect it has on them.
Please don’t assume marijuana affects everyone equally. It may work, but if it doesn’t, your girlfriend will know immediately so you can stop trying it. Ask her how marijuana normally affects her before trying that.
My wife and my girlfriend are both jealous of the effect it has on me. But I’m jealous on the sleep-inducing or calming effect it has on them.
Please don’t assume marijuana affects everyone equally. It may work, but if it doesn’t, your girlfriend will know immediately so you can stop trying it. Ask her how marijuana normally affects her before trying that.
Note I wrote appropriate edibles. There is a variety.
I leave it to you to research a bit further and perhaps try different kinds, with some trial and error you may get lucky yet.
I leave it to you to research a bit further and perhaps try different kinds, with some trial and error you may get lucky yet.
Thanks, much appreciated.
Just saw they very recently approved some canabis oil drops for medicinal use here, so that might also be an option.
Just saw they very recently approved some canabis oil drops for medicinal use here, so that might also be an option.
I am sensitive to low frequency sounds . The thing that seems to work for me is to play thunderstorm sounds, with isolating earphones. Because this sound has a high degree of randomness across the frequency spectrum, and its spectrum varies randomly over short timescales as well, external noise is masked even if it's still audible - because the brain can easily fit it into the thunderstorm pattern, and so doesn't get triggered by it.
Your milage may vary of course
Your milage may vary of course
you say that so flippantly
If she falls a sleep then can she have the expected sleep length when not interrupted?
Seldom. Usually if she's not interrupted the nightmares show up and ruins the night.
I got one of those Garmin activity trackers. After using it for a while, she tried it.
I know they ain't perfect but there's a very stark contrast between her and me, using the same tracker. It'll show me getting typically 4-5 hours of deep sleep when I have a good night. With her it's typically an hour tops, often less than 30 minutes.
I got one of those Garmin activity trackers. After using it for a while, she tried it.
I know they ain't perfect but there's a very stark contrast between her and me, using the same tracker. It'll show me getting typically 4-5 hours of deep sleep when I have a good night. With her it's typically an hour tops, often less than 30 minutes.
Edibles have been a godsend to me. Have you guys tried them?
Has she considered PTSD? It sounds a lot like it and there has been promising work around PTSD from what I have seen in passing.
Psychoanalysis might be useful, it is my understanding that it can deal with complex issues where simpler forms of therapy fails
My suggestion is to try a religious conversion to christianity. I know it sound weird, but we all live in a story and she relive the same story over and over in her dreams and in real life.
Christianity will help her make sense of what happenend and will help her get over it. She will have a place to put evil and a place to put good and she will be slowly be able to fix the direction of her mind.
She can search for scripture that speak around what happened to her and see what she can do about it. She will ask for help to go past her trauma.
I tought all my life that it was supersitious nonsense (scientific atheist) but I found out that I was wrong. We have no choice, we are religious by nature. Without a solid faith we are free floating, anxious, depressed, confused and stuck in loops.
Christianity will help her make sense of what happenend and will help her get over it. She will have a place to put evil and a place to put good and she will be slowly be able to fix the direction of her mind.
She can search for scripture that speak around what happened to her and see what she can do about it. She will ask for help to go past her trauma.
I tought all my life that it was supersitious nonsense (scientific atheist) but I found out that I was wrong. We have no choice, we are religious by nature. Without a solid faith we are free floating, anxious, depressed, confused and stuck in loops.
I wonder if eventually once this is more thoroughly researched there could be a way to induce constant cleaning instead of having to do it while unconscious at night? Or at least reduce the hours required. If we could solve this we could just stay awake perpetually and instantly gain a 30% longer lifespan as it were.
If there is any magic bullet, it'll be something biological evolution can't easily jump-to or stumble-upon. Otherwise I think it would have happened already, given the risks of sleep and the rewards of an expanded activity (or at least awareness) cycle.
Well it's not unheard of that some people won the genetic lottery and are more efficient at it, functioning normally with only 3, 4 hours of sleep every day. There's definitely room for improvement for those of us that need 8 or 9 lmao. Hell even reducing it to just 7 or 6 would be such a massive gain.
For "Short Sleeper Syndrome", it remains to be seen what the long-term tradeoffs are.
Kind of like how someone might excel at a specific test because of a lesser sense of pain, but that lack of feedback loop can be detrimental in the long run as they keep injury themselves without noticing.
Kind of like how someone might excel at a specific test because of a lesser sense of pain, but that lack of feedback loop can be detrimental in the long run as they keep injury themselves without noticing.
> I wonder if eventually once this is more thoroughly researched there could be a way to induce constant cleaning instead of having to do it while unconscious at night?
Hopefully without having to induce those brainwaves, otherwise you might be able to do it during the day but you wouldn't exactly be conscious. But there's also the question of whether those brainwaves are doing more than just cleaning the brain.
I think some types of learning and memory formation also happen during sleep, right?
Hopefully without having to induce those brainwaves, otherwise you might be able to do it during the day but you wouldn't exactly be conscious. But there's also the question of whether those brainwaves are doing more than just cleaning the brain.
I think some types of learning and memory formation also happen during sleep, right?
> Hopefully without having to induce those brainwaves, otherwise you might be able to do it during the day but you wouldn't exactly be conscious. But there's also the question of whether those brainwaves are doing more than just cleaning the brain.
...Lucid daydreaming button, anyone? Maybe not lucid if it's the exact same as normal sleep, but I'm sure that if such a thing more exist, you'd be able to adjust exactly how it affects your brain.
...Lucid daydreaming button, anyone? Maybe not lucid if it's the exact same as normal sleep, but I'm sure that if such a thing more exist, you'd be able to adjust exactly how it affects your brain.
But your brain is disconnected from your body during dreams, to keep you from flailing around. Sometimes you even wake up before the block is lifted and can’t move. So controlling such a device would be difficult.
You're describing sleep paralysis, right? It's not so much a disconnection as it is an inhibition. Attempts to move most of your muscles are blocked, but external stimuli still get in. You know, once upon a time someone started the washer while I was presumably in REM, and I started to hear something in my dream. When I woke up, it only took me a couple minutes to realize that what I had been hearing in the dream was some greatly slowed-down version of the washer that had just been started, since I guess my dream time was travelling faster than real time. I think the only reason it didn't wake me up is because I'm used to sleeping through the sound of the washer running and may even normally filter it out. That's just the first time that someone managed to turn it on in the middle of my actual dreaming phase.
Yeah, that’s right. I had it once before I knew it was a thing and could see, hear, feel, but not move. Quite terrifying at the time, even if it resolved pretty rapidly.
I've been trying to induce it willingly for around a decade at this point. Same for lucid dreaming. Haven't really managed to do either one, not sure if I am capable of it either. Oh well.
All my odd dream/sleep experiences came as a teenager, got every one at least once, lucid dreams I had several times, also night terrors, and sleep paralysis. Nothing since then.
> But your brain is disconnected from your body during dreams, to keep you from flailing around
Tell that to sleepwalkers!
Tell that to sleepwalkers!
I believe there are two "obvious" theories on how sleepwalking may occur:
- Sleep paralysis doesn't properly activate, and someone accidentally transfers the motion of walking into real life. proprioception may pass through to the dream, they might perceive a dream environment that allows them to navigate the real one. (i.e. righting themself from bed, staying upright while walking)
- They aren't fully asleep, but they aren't awake/aware either. I've had my fair share of people telling me that I said or did things after waking up and before immediately going back to sleep, and those are things I don't remember doing at all, probably because they weren't properly recorded in memory because my brain was not fully awake. (Some of these cases could have been DID though.)
- Sleep paralysis doesn't properly activate, and someone accidentally transfers the motion of walking into real life. proprioception may pass through to the dream, they might perceive a dream environment that allows them to navigate the real one. (i.e. righting themself from bed, staying upright while walking)
- They aren't fully asleep, but they aren't awake/aware either. I've had my fair share of people telling me that I said or did things after waking up and before immediately going back to sleep, and those are things I don't remember doing at all, probably because they weren't properly recorded in memory because my brain was not fully awake. (Some of these cases could have been DID though.)
More efficient sleep is possible with ultrasound. But keep in mind that the glymphatic system seems to expand as other systems contract. The waves are tied to brain activity slowing down, can’t have one without the other. That said, could intersperse active times of the day with naps. But naps alone don’t seem sufficient as good sleep.
> The waves are tied to brain activity slowing down, can’t have one without the other.
But why? Is this knowledge onservation based (“that is how it is in the organisms we studied”) or is it a theoretical limit?
Dolphins for example seems to get by without fully going unconscious. (I’m talking about the literal marine mamals, not a chronotype or anything like that here.)
But why? Is this knowledge onservation based (“that is how it is in the organisms we studied”) or is it a theoretical limit?
Dolphins for example seems to get by without fully going unconscious. (I’m talking about the literal marine mamals, not a chronotype or anything like that here.)
To what degree is it more efficient? For example could you halve your sleep requirement? That would already be huge.
The waves are actually tied to the synchronous firing of neurons which is the hallmark of deep sleep.
Philips has a headband product called DeepSleep. They claim it increases your deep sleep by playing some sort of sound during your sleep that induces more deep sleep. For some odd reason, despite being a Dutch company, the product was only sold in the US. I spent a lot of money having it imported to Netherlands.
Unfortunately I can't tell whether it works. I rely on headphones and earplugs to block out sounds during the night. Sounds such as cars and airplanes outside, or other people in the house going to the toilet, tend to wake me up unless I block out those sounds. And the handband is not compatible with headphones or ear plugs.
I wish there is a better solution.
Unfortunately I can't tell whether it works. I rely on headphones and earplugs to block out sounds during the night. Sounds such as cars and airplanes outside, or other people in the house going to the toilet, tend to wake me up unless I block out those sounds. And the handband is not compatible with headphones or ear plugs.
I wish there is a better solution.
It appears to be discontinued
Check this out, I just saw a reference to this recently:
https://www.nia.nih.gov/news/noninvasive-brain-wave-treatmen...
https://www.nia.nih.gov/news/noninvasive-brain-wave-treatmen...
There already is constant cleaning, the brain just can’t seem to keep up. Sleep is more efficient at clearance. People are working on making sleep more efficient. As you can imagine, military leading here.
I must be spending too much time on HN. I recognize this exact comment from a month ago.
I’m thinking it should be pinned to the top of any sleep post!
I was thinking the same thing, but I wasn't sure how long ago it was.
> which is so newly discovered
It says that it was published in 2015, or am I missing something?
It says that it was published in 2015, or am I missing something?
Am I missing something? 2015 for a paper feels relatively new enough that people might not know about it and it might not be in school books.
People learn in school, then after they estabilish their career, they have kids and other interests and this and that and they get intellectually stuck. Don't grow. Don't learn new things in their field of (supposed) expertise... I see this ALL THE TIME. Now if middle aged programmer refuses to learn new things, it's annoying to work with them, but you'll survive. If a middle aged physician refuses to learn new things, you're kinda fucked. Sadly, the amount of physicians out there who don't keep improving is pretty large given the importance of their job. Yes, the "pretty large" part is mostly anecdotal - my experience and experiences of my friends and family - but if I see the stuck programmers in my field, I'm pretty convinced there must be quite a few of the stuck physicians.
So yeah, 10 years in medicine? Seems like a brand new paper to me. I expect that knowledge to bubble its way to your average physician some time around 2040.
So yeah, 10 years in medicine? Seems like a brand new paper to me. I expect that knowledge to bubble its way to your average physician some time around 2040.
That’s why I am on hackernews though? If nobody posted that paper 8 years ago I’d be surprised.
5 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20622712
I'm about the median age in the US and wouldn't expect anyone less than a decade younger than me to have been taught it in school unless they went for a degree in a related field, and possibly not even then.
2015 is after I finished grad school and something like a decade after I'd last taken a class where it might have been taught if it had already been around for enough years to make it into the curriculum.
Great points, I got my Ph.D. in neuroscience 20 years ago. There were disparate theories for why we sleep but no mechanistic description. Most of the research not specifically relevant to my own took 10-20 years to become influential. I’d be surprised if most textbooks for neuroscience-related fields being published today are including the glymphatic system, including psychology / psychiatry and medicine.
> so newly discovered likely you didn’t learn about it in school.
So with the slow pace knowledge makes it into the school curriculum, you likely wouldn't have heard about it in school unless you just left the system a year or two ago (if even then).
So with the slow pace knowledge makes it into the school curriculum, you likely wouldn't have heard about it in school unless you just left the system a year or two ago (if even then).
Exactly, my kids are in elementary school and I’ve been talking with superintendents and high school principals. It’s straightforward to teach kids about the brain as a muscle and sleep as critical to rest and recovery to best power cognition. The glymphatic system gives a clear mechanism and yet I haven’t found many places where it’s being taught as a core part of how to best use your brain. Sleep is still considered a nice to have for brain performance, not a driver of working smarter.
Ok I think I got confused. I thought OP meant that they will win the Nobel for this specific publication.
I guess I should have slept more
I guess I should have slept more
You are missing the context of age demographics. For example: in the United States of America about 63% of the population is over the age of 32 which represents roughly 200 million Americans which graduated Highschool before the year 2010.
And the majority of whoever is teaching university or even high school right now probably graduated themselves before 2015, when the article was published.
More details at Washington Univ' site: https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/neurons-help-flush-waste-out...
Could not find any free access to the paper, even though the Univ' says "This work was supported by the National Institutes of Health (NIH); the BJC Investigators Program at Washington University; and the Neuroscience Innovation Foundation."
These kind of grant funded research should be accessible at the least from the Univ' websites.
Could not find any free access to the paper, even though the Univ' says "This work was supported by the National Institutes of Health (NIH); the BJC Investigators Program at Washington University; and the Neuroscience Innovation Foundation."
These kind of grant funded research should be accessible at the least from the Univ' websites.
All NIH funded research is freely open access by law.
In this case it seems the authors didn’t pay the (crazy expensive) Nature open access fee. They will have to upload a free PDF to PubMed manually, but have up to a year to do so, and don’t seem to have done it yet.
In this case it seems the authors didn’t pay the (crazy expensive) Nature open access fee. They will have to upload a free PDF to PubMed manually, but have up to a year to do so, and don’t seem to have done it yet.
Is Nature’s open access fee really that crazy? Last time I checked it was a few thousand dollars.
And it’s paid once, to make the whole thing open perpetually. It certainly seems better than having the people interested in reading it pay $30-40 each.
Of course, this is also based on the few times I’ve heard researchers talk about the ways they could spend their grant money. $2k to Nature sounds like a great deal by comparison.
Note: Worked for Nature in the past.
And it’s paid once, to make the whole thing open perpetually. It certainly seems better than having the people interested in reading it pay $30-40 each.
Of course, this is also based on the few times I’ve heard researchers talk about the ways they could spend their grant money. $2k to Nature sounds like a great deal by comparison.
Note: Worked for Nature in the past.
It’s over $12k, which seems insane, and is 5-10x what other journals charge.
These journals are a racket… volunteer editors, volunteer reviewers, and thousands for what amounts to PDF hosting… which they also charge every school and library in the world on the other end.
These journals are a racket… volunteer editors, volunteer reviewers, and thousands for what amounts to PDF hosting… which they also charge every school and library in the world on the other end.
Yes, I wouldn't expect someone to pay a few thousand dollars to Nature when PubMed will do the same job for free. I think the role of academic journals is decreasing as open and tech-savvy solutions to information sharing and screening are being deployed.
Depends, PubMed will happily take any article. I know for a fact that Nature does it’s own independent review of whatever is published (or did, years ago anyway). It’s not a guarantee of course, there’s been enough instances of review failure even in Nature, but it’s not the same as free access.
Ultimately what you are paying for is curation.
Ultimately what you are paying for is curation.
More discussion about this paper on ALZ forum:
https://www.alzforum.org/news/research-news/do-sleep-rhythms...
https://www.alzforum.org/news/research-news/do-sleep-rhythms...
Checked and it was published through Nature:
Jiang-Xie, LF., Drieu, A., Bhasiin, K. et al. Neuronal dynamics direct cerebrospinal fluid perfusion and brain clearance. Nature 627, 157–164 (2024). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-024-07108-6
Every Uni should have access through your library system.
Jiang-Xie, LF., Drieu, A., Bhasiin, K. et al. Neuronal dynamics direct cerebrospinal fluid perfusion and brain clearance. Nature 627, 157–164 (2024). https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-024-07108-6
Every Uni should have access through your library system.
I think the point was that every member of the public should have access to publicly funded research at least through the university's website, rather than at least everyone currently in universities should have access.
I agree but I also know (as a university employee) that the reason they don’t do this is because then they would have to pay for and manage the hosting of hundreds of thousands of articles. From the university’s perspective, managing and hosting articles is exactly what publishers do, so universities cede that work to publishers. What is needed is a public database of all publicly-funded research.
How hard or expensive is it to embed a PDF link in the Univ news article. It maybe less harder and expensive than the stock image that they have used.
Stanford maintains an extensive catalog of research papers: https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/in00000064276
Stanford maintains an extensive catalog of research papers: https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/in00000064276
At first I was like, “oh, that’s a reasonable perspective,” and then I thought about it more and it kinda isn’t?
When I buy a keyboard, the manufacturer doesn’t run a shipping company, so they use $x from the purchase price to subcontract shipping. (They tell me it’s separate at billing, but they don’t make me ring up DSL myself either.)
When I hire an electrician, they buy materials from Home Depot, so they use $x from the purchase price for materials. (They sometimes break down the bill into materials and labor, but they don’t make me drive to Home Depot myself and buy every part.)
When the public hires academics to do research, they have administrative overhead and have to hire a publisher, so they use $x from the grant for administrative overhead and…
Abdicate responsibility for the $y needed for publishing and pretend the public didn’t intend for part of the grant money to go to that??
When I buy a keyboard, the manufacturer doesn’t run a shipping company, so they use $x from the purchase price to subcontract shipping. (They tell me it’s separate at billing, but they don’t make me ring up DSL myself either.)
When I hire an electrician, they buy materials from Home Depot, so they use $x from the purchase price for materials. (They sometimes break down the bill into materials and labor, but they don’t make me drive to Home Depot myself and buy every part.)
When the public hires academics to do research, they have administrative overhead and have to hire a publisher, so they use $x from the grant for administrative overhead and…
Abdicate responsibility for the $y needed for publishing and pretend the public didn’t intend for part of the grant money to go to that??
Publishers are not supported by government. and government only require publish.
You may have missed the point here.
OP was saying that publicly funded research needs to have, built in to its budget for the research, enough money to make the findings publicly available. The publishing mechanism is largely arbitrary here, only that it must be budgeted for.
OP was saying that publicly funded research needs to have, built in to its budget for the research, enough money to make the findings publicly available. The publishing mechanism is largely arbitrary here, only that it must be budgeted for.
Hosting is a long-solved problem. High-quality repositories have provided free, universally accessible document hosting to the academic world for decades.
The arXiv is a nonprofit organization run by Cornell that hosts preprints, and I wouldn't be surprised if it holds more stuff than all the for-profit publishers combined at this point. The barriers to uploading on the arXiv are very low - all you need is to be at a recognized academic institution or endorsed by someone who works for one.
Resources like arXiv have made official publishing largely superfluous for spreading knowledge in the parts of academia that understand and care about the value of spreading knowledge for free. Analogous archives exist for (at least) biology, medicine, psychology, and economics.
https://info.arxiv.org/about/index.html
The arXiv is a nonprofit organization run by Cornell that hosts preprints, and I wouldn't be surprised if it holds more stuff than all the for-profit publishers combined at this point. The barriers to uploading on the arXiv are very low - all you need is to be at a recognized academic institution or endorsed by someone who works for one.
Resources like arXiv have made official publishing largely superfluous for spreading knowledge in the parts of academia that understand and care about the value of spreading knowledge for free. Analogous archives exist for (at least) biology, medicine, psychology, and economics.
https://info.arxiv.org/about/index.html
some sort of scientific hub, one might say
Sounds like a good cost for the government to subsidize.
I agree publicly funded research should not be siloed in anyway and should be in the public domain.
Yes, it was published through Nature.
But what stops Univ' site to have original research paper available for download? Nature magazine is just a distribution channel (they did not sponsor the research so should not have exclusive rights on it).
Left college long time ago; and do not have access to any library system.
But what stops Univ' site to have original research paper available for download? Nature magazine is just a distribution channel (they did not sponsor the research so should not have exclusive rights on it).
Left college long time ago; and do not have access to any library system.
Copyright Transfer Agreement.
The moment you send the paper to Nature, you can only publish the draft you sent in. Unless you pay for publish, editorial costs are paid by selling access to that paper.
If you want to publish in an Open Access manner, you need to pay the costs. Or if your country wants to license it for Open Access, your country pays the costs.
If you want to publish in an Open Access manner, you need to pay the costs. Or if your country wants to license it for Open Access, your country pays the costs.
The final draft that was sent is good enough, maybe all that one needs.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. In my case, the edited versions of (my) paper had more experiments, refined images and was more complete.
The paper was not bad to begin with, but the edited/revised version painted a more complete picture which shouldn't be possible without a set of external reviewers.
The paper was not bad to begin with, but the edited/revised version painted a more complete picture which shouldn't be possible without a set of external reviewers.
If I understand correctly, for most publishers you are allowed to host a copy on your personal web as well as the university library catalog?
AFAIK, this comes with distribution limitations like to your department and students in the university. There's an exception for arXiv generally for publishing intermediate revisions, but not the final one.
Elsevier has a nice summary at [0]. At the bottom there's "Publicly share the final published article". It's "YES" for Open Access and "NO" for subscription (classical) model. There's a rather detailed "Scholarly Share" which allows sharing with researchers, but not to any researcher, as I aforementioned on top.
[0]: https://www.elsevier.com/about/policies-and-standards/copyri...
Elsevier has a nice summary at [0]. At the bottom there's "Publicly share the final published article". It's "YES" for Open Access and "NO" for subscription (classical) model. There's a rather detailed "Scholarly Share" which allows sharing with researchers, but not to any researcher, as I aforementioned on top.
[0]: https://www.elsevier.com/about/policies-and-standards/copyri...
Never knew this before! Thanks for sharing.
If you email the authors they might be happy to send you a copy - scientists tend to be in favour of the free exchange of information, there's no restriction on them sharing their paper if they choose to, and they don't get royalties from journal subscriptions so they have no vested interest in paywalling their research
Not all of them. I sent a couple of such mails, to only get back the freely available summary PDFs back. Even with the same checksum with the ones on the web.
True, but I'd say it's still worth the email asking. I used to work in the mental health field requested paywalled research papers on cognitive and developmental disabilities pretty regularly, and about 80% of the people I contacted sent the paper to me without much question.
The more we all do it, the more expected the practice becomes and with any luck, these money-grubbing journals will take note and start offering copies at a minimal fee or time-limited access.
The more we all do it, the more expected the practice becomes and with any luck, these money-grubbing journals will take note and start offering copies at a minimal fee or time-limited access.
Of course. I'm a big proponent of Open Access. OTOH, Elsevier seems to give 50 days of Open Access via share links. I didn't know that.
I was away from academic arena for some time. Looks like I'll be returning soon-ish.
I was away from academic arena for some time. Looks like I'll be returning soon-ish.
Yep. My dog was part of a study at UC Davis. All I was able to get was an abstract.
Is anyone more knowledgeable able to interpret the paper beyond ‘brain waves wash toxins’?
Are they actually responsible for the observed activity, or do they merely trigger some ‘flushing’ mechanism inherent to the cells? Or, are the waves a result of that process?
Are they actually responsible for the observed activity, or do they merely trigger some ‘flushing’ mechanism inherent to the cells? Or, are the waves a result of that process?
I can't find free access to the full paper, but here's the abstract (afraid I'm not knowledgeable enough to add to or explain any of it):
"The accumulation of metabolic waste is a leading cause of numerous neurological disorders, yet we still have only limited knowledge of how the brain performs self-cleansing. Here we demonstrate that neural networks synchronize individual action potentials to create large-amplitude, rhythmic and self-perpetuating ionic waves in the interstitial fluid of the brain. These waves are a plausible mechanism to explain the correlated potentiation of the glymphatic flow1,2 through the brain parenchyma. Chemogenetic flattening of these high-energy ionic waves largely impeded cerebrospinal fluid infiltration into and clearance of molecules from the brain parenchyma. Notably, synthesized waves generated through transcranial optogenetic stimulation substantially potentiated cerebrospinal fluid-to-interstitial fluid perfusion. Our study demonstrates that neurons serve as master organizers for brain clearance. This fundamental principle introduces a new theoretical framework for the functioning of macroscopic brain waves."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38418877/
"The accumulation of metabolic waste is a leading cause of numerous neurological disorders, yet we still have only limited knowledge of how the brain performs self-cleansing. Here we demonstrate that neural networks synchronize individual action potentials to create large-amplitude, rhythmic and self-perpetuating ionic waves in the interstitial fluid of the brain. These waves are a plausible mechanism to explain the correlated potentiation of the glymphatic flow1,2 through the brain parenchyma. Chemogenetic flattening of these high-energy ionic waves largely impeded cerebrospinal fluid infiltration into and clearance of molecules from the brain parenchyma. Notably, synthesized waves generated through transcranial optogenetic stimulation substantially potentiated cerebrospinal fluid-to-interstitial fluid perfusion. Our study demonstrates that neurons serve as master organizers for brain clearance. This fundamental principle introduces a new theoretical framework for the functioning of macroscopic brain waves."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38418877/
>Chemogenetic flattening of these high-energy ionic waves largely impeded cerebrospinal fluid infiltration into and clearance of molecules from the brain parenchyma.
Sounds like unsync'd brain waves, (being awake) impedes cerebrospinal fluid flow through the brain.
When asleep, neurons sync their action potentials, acting like a ionized fluid pump, moving old dirty cerebrospinal fluid out, and allowing new, clean in.
Interestingly, when they synthesize that type of ionization using other means, they saw the same increase in fluid movement.
This is my best attempt at translating. Hopefully within 1-2 football fields. The author leaves choice of American or the rest of the world to the reader to decide.
Sounds like unsync'd brain waves, (being awake) impedes cerebrospinal fluid flow through the brain.
When asleep, neurons sync their action potentials, acting like a ionized fluid pump, moving old dirty cerebrospinal fluid out, and allowing new, clean in.
Interestingly, when they synthesize that type of ionization using other means, they saw the same increase in fluid movement.
This is my best attempt at translating. Hopefully within 1-2 football fields. The author leaves choice of American or the rest of the world to the reader to decide.
As someone in this field (research field not football field) I'd say that is an excellent layman explanation.
I wonder if these waves also help in “resetting” the distribution of ions among the CSF so neurons will continue to have the proper ion gradients for firing their action potentials?
I wonder if this state could be ultrasonically induced to have a "sleep helmet" which can calm and align rhythmic waves? and induce an artificial flush or "power nap"
--
Well, thats basically the trope of every Cybernetic design, with the connectors comming out the back of head/spine...
Like a continual wash which keeps you in this suspended hyper-aware, but calm, rested and focused mental state.
This is why cyborgs have such incredible reflexes.
--
Well, thats basically the trope of every Cybernetic design, with the connectors comming out the back of head/spine...
Like a continual wash which keeps you in this suspended hyper-aware, but calm, rested and focused mental state.
This is why cyborgs have such incredible reflexes.
Have you seen the video on hn a couple of weeks ago about the scientist using ultrasound to halt the progression of Alzheimer’s and to treat addiction?
Most fascinating video I’ve seen in a long time.
Edit: If you haven’t seen it yet, I highly recommend checking it out https://youtu.be/7BGtVJ3lBdE
Most fascinating video I’ve seen in a long time.
Edit: If you haven’t seen it yet, I highly recommend checking it out https://youtu.be/7BGtVJ3lBdE
IIRC, the goal of that effort is simply to violate the blood brain barrier, which may have therapeutic value only under very tightly managed circumstances since violating it likely will yield at least as many demerits as merits since the BBB is essential to keep the brain free of blood-borne toxins.
manipulating the blood-brain-barrier is exactly what ALL ssris and medicines affecting the brain do.... DMT, LSD, MDMA etc all deal in these molocules.
If we can create/prevent blood-brain-barrier-"Portals" as it were, via ultrasound - and do so like we do with the gamma knife but with sound waves, it would be more harmonious with our nature. (3/6/9 tesla rhythms and all that)
If we can create/prevent blood-brain-barrier-"Portals" as it were, via ultrasound - and do so like we do with the gamma knife but with sound waves, it would be more harmonious with our nature. (3/6/9 tesla rhythms and all that)
Thanks! Super interesting... however - I think our understanding of how to properly aim it, and make it resonant in the same way that mythical ancients a read to as have - We dont yet understand the frequencies of being.
Looking into this So I built out CyberKnife building at ECH in 2009...
and was just thinking about the vid you had, and how they are using the ultrasound intersections "at the blood brain barrier
Where exactly is this intersection occurring?
Is it poking a hole in something for the plaque to 'flow through' via the cereberal flush?
--
Ah I have my answer::
The transiant gap created by FUS will last a few hours...
So - here is where a few LLM ideas come to mind - as the gap allows for the flow of the enzymes through for a bit before they heal - what is the optimal location for placing the FUS pulses?
How many FUS pulses required to create the gap is unclear, as is exactly how long it takes for the enzyme flush - however, there is currently (mostly?) single point systems, but multi-point systems are being tested. What would be interesting to determine is if there could be a spatial pattern for placing the gaps, assuming you have a multi-point FUS system, imagine creating (N) FUS gaps simultaniously in a pattern which followed the natural flow of the enzyme flush - such that if the cereberal flush is flowing in a clockwise fashion - openening FUS gaps in accordance with the direction and timing of the enzyme flush's frequency. directed flow FUS animation.
It seems you dont have to explicitly open a gap with a FUS pulse - so can "massage" behavior such that you can direct flow? I guess only depending on the frequency with which you can aim and fire FUS pulses - but if you have multiple FUS sources? you can 'kite' the flow in...
which reinforces this: "In the context of Alzheimer’s disease, post-FUS tracer enhancement phenomena suggest the existence of a brain-wide perivenous fluid efflux pathway in humans4. This could potentially facilitate the drainage of harmful substances
I wonder what the energy consumption per pulse, how many pulses per gap, how many gaps per hour.
https://www.elcaminohealth.org/news/el-camino-hospital-purch...
---
But what would be really interesting is the marriage of a multi point FUS system layered on top of a cyberknife where as the cyberknife uses xrays to track the position of the prostate in order to determing the location of the point its 'knifing' - if you can massage points into position using FUS - maybe a multi-point FUS can hold a prostates target in position in sync with the cyberknifes 'knifing' and validation via xrays?
-- ala:
Focused Ultrasound (FUS) and the Blood-Brain Barrier (BBB): FUS has been shown to disrupt the BBB in a noninvasive, safe, and targeted manner1. The mechanical effects of FUS, namely cavitation, are thought to be the principle cause behind this BBB disruption1. This method of BBB disruption – FUS with microbubbles – has had very promising results1.
CyberKnife and Prostate Treatment: The CyberKnife System uses advanced technologies to track tumors anywhere in the body, while its unique robotic design keeps the radiation on target even while the tumor moves2. Before delivering the radiation beam, the CyberKnife System verifies the exact tumor position then adjusts the robot to precisely target the tumor2. This system is particularly effective for treating prostate cancer345.
Potential Combination of FUS and CyberKnife: In theory, a multi-point FUS system could potentially be used to “hold” a prostate target in position, working in sync with the CyberKnife’s tracking and ‘knifing’. This could potentially enhance the precision of the treatment, as the FUS system could help ensure the prostate remains in the optimal position for the CyberKnife treatment.
and was just thinking about the vid you had, and how they are using the ultrasound intersections "at the blood brain barrier
Where exactly is this intersection occurring?
Is it poking a hole in something for the plaque to 'flow through' via the cereberal flush?
--
Ah I have my answer::
The transiant gap created by FUS will last a few hours...
So - here is where a few LLM ideas come to mind - as the gap allows for the flow of the enzymes through for a bit before they heal - what is the optimal location for placing the FUS pulses?
How many FUS pulses required to create the gap is unclear, as is exactly how long it takes for the enzyme flush - however, there is currently (mostly?) single point systems, but multi-point systems are being tested. What would be interesting to determine is if there could be a spatial pattern for placing the gaps, assuming you have a multi-point FUS system, imagine creating (N) FUS gaps simultaniously in a pattern which followed the natural flow of the enzyme flush - such that if the cereberal flush is flowing in a clockwise fashion - openening FUS gaps in accordance with the direction and timing of the enzyme flush's frequency. directed flow FUS animation.
It seems you dont have to explicitly open a gap with a FUS pulse - so can "massage" behavior such that you can direct flow? I guess only depending on the frequency with which you can aim and fire FUS pulses - but if you have multiple FUS sources? you can 'kite' the flow in...
which reinforces this: "In the context of Alzheimer’s disease, post-FUS tracer enhancement phenomena suggest the existence of a brain-wide perivenous fluid efflux pathway in humans4. This could potentially facilitate the drainage of harmful substances
I wonder what the energy consumption per pulse, how many pulses per gap, how many gaps per hour.
https://www.elcaminohealth.org/news/el-camino-hospital-purch...
---
But what would be really interesting is the marriage of a multi point FUS system layered on top of a cyberknife where as the cyberknife uses xrays to track the position of the prostate in order to determing the location of the point its 'knifing' - if you can massage points into position using FUS - maybe a multi-point FUS can hold a prostates target in position in sync with the cyberknifes 'knifing' and validation via xrays?
-- ala:
Focused Ultrasound (FUS) and the Blood-Brain Barrier (BBB): FUS has been shown to disrupt the BBB in a noninvasive, safe, and targeted manner1. The mechanical effects of FUS, namely cavitation, are thought to be the principle cause behind this BBB disruption1. This method of BBB disruption – FUS with microbubbles – has had very promising results1.
CyberKnife and Prostate Treatment: The CyberKnife System uses advanced technologies to track tumors anywhere in the body, while its unique robotic design keeps the radiation on target even while the tumor moves2. Before delivering the radiation beam, the CyberKnife System verifies the exact tumor position then adjusts the robot to precisely target the tumor2. This system is particularly effective for treating prostate cancer345.
Potential Combination of FUS and CyberKnife: In theory, a multi-point FUS system could potentially be used to “hold” a prostate target in position, working in sync with the CyberKnife’s tracking and ‘knifing’. This could potentially enhance the precision of the treatment, as the FUS system could help ensure the prostate remains in the optimal position for the CyberKnife treatment.
I wonder if this could help insomniacs. I had some pretty extreme burn out earlier this year that mentally made it so I couldn't sleep. I had to remove as much stress from life as I could and plan an aggressive routine of not working, relaxation, exercise, sleeping exactly on time and personal therapy with my wife to get my mind to shut down at night.
It is pretty grueling how bad it feels to not sleep so a cap like this would at least make it so the build up doesn't kill you from over collecting old fluid excessively.
It is pretty grueling how bad it feels to not sleep so a cap like this would at least make it so the build up doesn't kill you from over collecting old fluid excessively.
I was thinking if we could directly tap and pump fresh cerebrospinal fluid and eliminate sleep
It seems neat in theory but I imagine the brain having to operate an additional 8 hours a day might actually accelerate mental decline faster as we age given you would be using it 1/3 more but it is an interesting concept.
Or you just have a slow continuous flow, where the pumping is controlled by the heartbeat - meaning that whatever is pumping the BrainWash 9000(TM) is triggered by the impulses to the heart - however there is some monitoring system which also can slow or increase B9 as needed.
> Here we demonstrate that neural networks synchronize individual action potentials to create large-amplitude, rhythmic and self-perpetuating ionic waves in the interstitial fluid of the brain
This line is the money shot. An action potential is the variable electrical charge of a neuron, and they maintain that charge by containing a certain concentration of ions relative to the surrounding cerebrospinal fluid. This paper proposes that neurons synchonise their charge state, which forces ions to flow in or out of the neurons in bulk, the movement of these ions causing the cerebrospinal fluid to move around, clearing out the accumulated debris.
This line is the money shot. An action potential is the variable electrical charge of a neuron, and they maintain that charge by containing a certain concentration of ions relative to the surrounding cerebrospinal fluid. This paper proposes that neurons synchonise their charge state, which forces ions to flow in or out of the neurons in bulk, the movement of these ions causing the cerebrospinal fluid to move around, clearing out the accumulated debris.
I’d expect that it’s probably not the ion movement but the global electric field, maybe even mechanical effects in the axons.
If you look at the Goldstein-Katz equations you see that the conductivities play an as important role as the concentrations.
Most of the voltage change is driven by changes in conductivities and not concentration changes, the ion movements across the membrane should be negligible.
Off course you have the free ions outside the cells than diffuse in a field gradient.
If you look at the Goldstein-Katz equations you see that the conductivities play an as important role as the concentrations.
Most of the voltage change is driven by changes in conductivities and not concentration changes, the ion movements across the membrane should be negligible.
Off course you have the free ions outside the cells than diffuse in a field gradient.
*Goldman-(Hodgkin-)Katz equation
Do these wave of stimulation cause dreaming as a side effect?
[deleted]
In another comment I talked about how I observed a phenomena similar to the one described where neuronal activations would create waves, I've quoted it here. I would summarize it as 3D waves of light, resulting in a spherical enamation that readjusts the physical substrate of the mind and body.
""
I tried to observe the phenomena yesterday again and couldn't observe it but it was very specifically this in the past: spherical orbs of white light expanding from a centre. There were many of these, and my perception was that the nature of this geometric expanding shape was healing. To describe it more clearly, many years ago I felt that the perfect geometric spherical nature of these expanding waves were designed to gently round off rough edges. To make an analogy, imagine kneading some play dough over and over again. When you use your hands to do so, every time your hands make contact with the play dough, the play dough changes shape slightly because of the contact between your hands and the play dough and it gets softer. Now apply this concept to the idea of energetic waves making contact and passing through the material substrate of the brain and the rest of the body (yes I observed the waves applying to more than just my mind). It was my physical and conscious perception that as the spherical waves emanated from some center, they gently readjusted the physical substrate that they passed through. And because there were so many of them in different spatial locations, this readjustment was incredibly refined.
""
I tried to observe the phenomena yesterday again and couldn't observe it but it was very specifically this in the past: spherical orbs of white light expanding from a centre. There were many of these, and my perception was that the nature of this geometric expanding shape was healing. To describe it more clearly, many years ago I felt that the perfect geometric spherical nature of these expanding waves were designed to gently round off rough edges. To make an analogy, imagine kneading some play dough over and over again. When you use your hands to do so, every time your hands make contact with the play dough, the play dough changes shape slightly because of the contact between your hands and the play dough and it gets softer. Now apply this concept to the idea of energetic waves making contact and passing through the material substrate of the brain and the rest of the body (yes I observed the waves applying to more than just my mind). It was my physical and conscious perception that as the spherical waves emanated from some center, they gently readjusted the physical substrate that they passed through. And because there were so many of them in different spatial locations, this readjustment was incredibly refined.
Wouldn’t it be cool if we could periodically trigger waves like this to refresh the brain and maybe require less (or no) sleep!
I have no expertise in this area I’m just a dreamer :)
I have no expertise in this area I’m just a dreamer :)
That's been in use for thousands of years already: yoga, pranayama and meditation.
There are courses one can take where one learns this, like Art of Living and any other that follows the same traditions.
Yes, there's research on that, and new studies should absolutely gain from this study. Not entirely sure you'll observe the same effect, that depends on meditator, but you can fall asleep during practice.
I have over a decade experience with it, and have also participated on a study on breathing exercises and epigenetic effects from that versus blind control.
There are courses one can take where one learns this, like Art of Living and any other that follows the same traditions.
Yes, there's research on that, and new studies should absolutely gain from this study. Not entirely sure you'll observe the same effect, that depends on meditator, but you can fall asleep during practice.
I have over a decade experience with it, and have also participated on a study on breathing exercises and epigenetic effects from that versus blind control.
I think the point of replacing sleep is to save time.
Replacing hours of sleep with hours of yogo or mediation seems like you are not gaining anything.
Replacing hours of sleep with hours of yogo or mediation seems like you are not gaining anything.
Meditation is a practice, you practice to keep your mind "clean" and don't clutter it with unnecessary thoughts, worries, etc. If you master this skill, you will require less sleep. And then you don't have to be sitting on the floor all the time, you can just live your life without cluttering your mind all the time. So it is ultimately more efficient than cluttering your mind all day and then needing lots of sleep. But it does take some initial practicing time before you reach that state of mind. But with all things, if you put some effort in beforehand, you can reap a lot of gain afterwards. Doing this practice for about 20/30 minutes every morning can already quickly bring great improvement to your daily life. If done right that is. It's easy to do it wrong also, and then it can not bring any benefit. Sometimes it's necessary to first work out some traumas before you start a serious meditation practice. Sometimes meditation actually helps you work out traumas. It all depends on the person and situation. For some people guided meditation works great, other people rather just sit in silence. It doesn't really matter, as long as you find something that works for you.
See it like exercising: you might think that spending time on exercising takes away time that you could spend on doing useful things. But it actually gives you better health, making you function better in your daily life. So it enables you to do things more efficiently. And you'll feel healthier, better, happier. So ultimately you gain from it.
See it like exercising: you might think that spending time on exercising takes away time that you could spend on doing useful things. But it actually gives you better health, making you function better in your daily life. So it enables you to do things more efficiently. And you'll feel healthier, better, happier. So ultimately you gain from it.
I think the point would be if you could replace ~8 hours of sleep with ~1-2 hours of meditation. I very much doubt it's a like-for-like replacement, but it might go some way to reducing the need for full sleep, e.g. 2 hours meditating + 2 hours sleeping = 8 hours sleeping.
Is the idea that yoga/meditation are more efficient than sleep at redistributing the cerebral fluid? That would be very surprising.
What people really require for sleep vary a lot. But there are claims some people practicing very intensely, need only 4-6 hours of sleep at night. That's rarely a goal in itself though, as it's not a means to become more efficient or "save time", in a traditional, linear way of thinking at least.
However, the goal of meditation can be very diverse, since there are many different techniques, each with their own aims and side-effects. Generally, the main goal is often to calm the mind, make the body relax and let go of stress. There are many more benefits though, which you only realize when doing personal and experiencial practice over longer periods of time. It's not like the effects are the same for each person even, so it's more like a discovery process rather than do A, B, C techniques for X, Y, Z gains. However, there's a baseline of methods and general health, which is what it's usually used for. Very few people are suited to be munks or living in secluded communes like that. But it can be Very nice to be on a 1-2 week retreat now and then.
However, the goal of meditation can be very diverse, since there are many different techniques, each with their own aims and side-effects. Generally, the main goal is often to calm the mind, make the body relax and let go of stress. There are many more benefits though, which you only realize when doing personal and experiencial practice over longer periods of time. It's not like the effects are the same for each person even, so it's more like a discovery process rather than do A, B, C techniques for X, Y, Z gains. However, there's a baseline of methods and general health, which is what it's usually used for. Very few people are suited to be munks or living in secluded communes like that. But it can be Very nice to be on a 1-2 week retreat now and then.
“You should meditate 10 minutes each day,” the teacher said.
“But I can’t find 10 minutes every day!” said the student.
“Then,” replied the teacher, “you should meditate for 60 minutes each day.”
Which exercises would you say trigger movement of cerebrospinal dluid in the brain?
It's hilarious to me that these practices are laughed off, trivialized through memes and hyper-objectivity (science can't evaluate their value in a practical manner -> "Lulz hippie-dippie nonsense for ditzy/ungrounded women!!!!" -- Western dolt). Its insane considering their benefits...that are of course tragically perfect for those who would never participate
Of course that's a huge generality, I'd say it may be 1 out of 5 people like that in the US, but its the fact that it is not constrained to any particular demographic/background.
Of course that's a huge generality, I'd say it may be 1 out of 5 people like that in the US, but its the fact that it is not constrained to any particular demographic/background.
I've seen actual psychiatrists suggesting meditation or yoga as additional ways to help with certain issues (eg anxiety) along with medicine, and the benefits of say, just conscious, controlled breathing as is involved in both are obvious to anyone who has a temper.
I wouldn't be surprised if the idea that it's completely useless because it can't be scientifically observed in a traditional sense is highly correlated with people who think that mental health issues aren't real in general.
I wouldn't be surprised if the idea that it's completely useless because it can't be scientifically observed in a traditional sense is highly correlated with people who think that mental health issues aren't real in general.
It's dismissed like any other woo woo bullshit: strong claims, no evidence.
Where's the evidence that yoga and meditation accomplish the effects of sleep and how strong is it?
Where's the evidence that yoga and meditation accomplish the effects of sleep and how strong is it?
There are studies on this, and I see they've been updated a bit. It doesn't seem to replace sleep due to Delta-waves during deep sleep, but can be used over time to maybe reduce the need for sleep. Enough sleep is of course important for clarity of mind and for releasing toxins and stress. In the West we often suffer from chronic sleep-deprivation, so meditation may help in that as well as ensuring enough rest in order to recuperate.
https://www.artofliving.org/us-en/meditation/sleep/meditatio...
You don't really need studies for this when you can have experiential evidence through own practices, which is much more important for an individual than external studies.
https://www.artofliving.org/us-en/meditation/sleep/meditatio...
You don't really need studies for this when you can have experiential evidence through own practices, which is much more important for an individual than external studies.
For companies it'd be a dream. 1/4 more awake time is 1/4 more time to buy stuff and watch content and ads. Or work longer hours. Gonna go back to sleep now.
Sounds like a win-win.
Let's say my discretionary spending is 30% of my income, it goes up by a third, and I need to work 10% longer hours. Okay, so I adjust to a 44 hour work week and I get an extra 30+ hours of free time? Great!
Let's say my discretionary spending is 30% of my income, it goes up by a third, and I need to work 10% longer hours. Okay, so I adjust to a 44 hour work week and I get an extra 30+ hours of free time? Great!
Definitely get some sleep. Your post suggests you're getting less than five hours a night.
the immediate use doesnt have to buy more shit.
it could be used in endurance/focused events. high stress relief, traumatic brain injury - like immediate induce afte cte event in foot ball
head trauma in car accident
ODs etc...
-
When I was a baby, and I would get ill, my mom would calm me and put me to sleep - and I would sleep for an extended period and my mom would say that I would wake up fully well.
If this could be induced in infants going through trauma's such as a surgery, where inducing natural brain-flush instead of pumping a tiny body full of "medicine" this might be great for their long term mental development outside of having medicines in them when growing extremely fast.
it could be used in endurance/focused events. high stress relief, traumatic brain injury - like immediate induce afte cte event in foot ball
head trauma in car accident
ODs etc...
-
When I was a baby, and I would get ill, my mom would calm me and put me to sleep - and I would sleep for an extended period and my mom would say that I would wake up fully well.
If this could be induced in infants going through trauma's such as a surgery, where inducing natural brain-flush instead of pumping a tiny body full of "medicine" this might be great for their long term mental development outside of having medicines in them when growing extremely fast.
Dreamers have no problems here :)
the trigger could be like a sequence of flashes or certain pulsing of sound frequencies, it'd be like hacking the nervous system via unsanitized inputs
Have you read Snow Crash?
Meditation?
The paper shows a correlation between the observed ‘brain waves’ and the ‘toxin removal’. From the abstract:
‘These waves are a plausible mechanism to explain the correlated potentiation of the glymphatic flow through the brain parenchyma’.
I think the main objective of this paper is to justify more funding to explore this phenomenon, to establish causation (beyond correlation).
I was diagnosed with sleep apnea about six months ago. Once I started getting treatment for it (losing weight, cutting out caffeine, and an oral appliance) my life started getting dramatically better.
I had never taken sleep very seriously prior to that and I feel extremely foolish for it. Life is 100x better if you get an appropriate amount of sleep. Everything becomes a little easier.
I had never taken sleep very seriously prior to that and I feel extremely foolish for it. Life is 100x better if you get an appropriate amount of sleep. Everything becomes a little easier.
How did you recognize that it was sleep apnea? Have you snored at night?
You have dedicated facilities who let you sleep there and monitor you. But apnea can be easily seen, the person has gaps in breathing during some parts of sleep, gasping. Snoring can be one of the symptoms but reverse is not automatically true.
My boss was diagnosed with apnea in his 30s. It was so bad they didn't believe his first test results and had to redo it, off the charts. According to him it literally killed his father. Once he started using the device for sleeping he had 100x more mental and physical energy, everything was just easier.
My boss was diagnosed with apnea in his 30s. It was so bad they didn't believe his first test results and had to redo it, off the charts. According to him it literally killed his father. Once he started using the device for sleeping he had 100x more mental and physical energy, everything was just easier.
I was snoring, and in my case my wife told me there would be moments of kind of disturbing moments where I would stop breathing and then gasp multiple times a night.
In my case, I was able to take a sleep test from a doctor which was basically just a pulse oximeter I wore while sleeping.
In my case, I was able to take a sleep test from a doctor which was basically just a pulse oximeter I wore while sleeping.
One of the traits/habits I’ve been fortunate to have/cultivate is daily afternoon napping. I can rest my head and fall asleep in minutes and then wake back up 15 minutes later feeling cognitively refreshed. I’ve done this since my teenage years and throughout adulthood.
Short, intentional, regular napping is associated with a lower risks of dementia. This is different from increased, longer, napping seen in older adults. Longer naps in older adults is associated with Alzheimer’s. See this summary:
https://www.alzdiscovery.org/cognitive-vitality/blog/can-nap...
It will be interesting to see if further research in humans can pinpoint a plausible causal mechanism in adult for both regular night time sleep and intentional short daytime napping. This might encourage companies to put in ‘sleep pods’ or at least remove the stigma of adult napping.
Short, intentional, regular napping is associated with a lower risks of dementia. This is different from increased, longer, napping seen in older adults. Longer naps in older adults is associated with Alzheimer’s. See this summary:
https://www.alzdiscovery.org/cognitive-vitality/blog/can-nap...
It will be interesting to see if further research in humans can pinpoint a plausible causal mechanism in adult for both regular night time sleep and intentional short daytime napping. This might encourage companies to put in ‘sleep pods’ or at least remove the stigma of adult napping.
I find that even just 2 or 3 minutes unconscious still helps a lot. The Minimum Viable Nap is pretty minimal.
In case you didn't know, sleeping on your right side maximizes the clearance effect, while sleeping on your stomach minimizes it.
Citation? I've always read that for humans it's better to sleep on the left, for digestion anyway.
[in mice]
I'm imagining a row of little mice sleeping on their right side in a lab experiment
In some branches of yoga, they strongly encourage you to sleep on your right side. I always thought it was nonsense...
And yet sleeping on your back contributes to snoring and sleep apnea.
Humans. Just can't win can they.
Humans. Just can't win can they.
Could you point us to the source?
The Effect of Body Posture on Brain Glymphatic Transport
[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4524974/#!po=72...
[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4524974/#!po=72...
Wait.. was that in the paper or is there a different source for this?
There is an mri greyscale clip that shows this process I saw a couple of years ago but could never find it back. It showed spinal fluid “washing” the brain. If anyone knows where I can find it, please link.
There’s this one I just found - [https://player.vimeo.com/video/370150539?background=1](https...
That one is the default google answer, but not the one I saw. Mine had a spine attached and there was no highlighting, the fluid movements were distinguishable in the scans.
Thank you for trying.
Thank you for trying.
So, if we could induce those brain waves we wouldn't need sleep? Maybe in the future our AirPods will have a "rejuvenate" feature which plays tones that cause sleep like brain waves to go through and clean out our neurons.
Probably not... I think our brains are like LLMs. We train them on sensory input we perceive over time, building up a data model that is unique to us. The models may generate similar results, but each person's brains are wired as differently as the raw binary data stored in ChatGPT vs Llama or Gemini. Thus the cleaning mechanism is probably unique per person as well.
But I don't really have a clue. It's just a logical inference.
Probably not... I think our brains are like LLMs. We train them on sensory input we perceive over time, building up a data model that is unique to us. The models may generate similar results, but each person's brains are wired as differently as the raw binary data stored in ChatGPT vs Llama or Gemini. Thus the cleaning mechanism is probably unique per person as well.
But I don't really have a clue. It's just a logical inference.
I'd think that the brain isn't the only part of the human body that needs sleep/rest.
Becoming immobile for such a long amount of time must have a much larger systemic purpose given that this is how our bodies evolved.
Your spine contracts during the day and releases while you sleep at night.
I have an idea: if you induced those brain waves, you would technically be asleep. So you would not actually be magically given more awake time.
We don't know how to induce slow-waves yet, but lots of research around how we can increase the function.
The mechanism is very not unique. Unlike other neuronal activity, the slow-waves are synchronous firing of neurons, and almost all brains respond to interruptions 30 degrees off the peak of the wave.
It's much more health engineering than much of the medicine I'm aware of.
We've been working on this for the last 4 years at https://affectablesleep.com
The mechanism is very not unique. Unlike other neuronal activity, the slow-waves are synchronous firing of neurons, and almost all brains respond to interruptions 30 degrees off the peak of the wave.
It's much more health engineering than much of the medicine I'm aware of.
We've been working on this for the last 4 years at https://affectablesleep.com
induction may cause a feeling of restedness, but unless the actual fluid pumps out the waste, you'd likely get diminishing, perhaps even damaging results if you over use it... like and "sleep spell" it has a cooldown that is needed for actual biological pumping time
Would be interesting to know if the waste that gets cleared out is similar to the wastes eliminated by autophagy.
We need to figure out what activity or thought creates waves most similar to the cleaning function.
Maybe it’s dreaming? Dreaming by my experience is tedious and not restful… I have 4-6 dreams every night and never feel like I’m truly asleep.
Shouldn’t be hard to figure out with an EKG and a decent graph to see what your aiming for.
Maybe it’s dreaming? Dreaming by my experience is tedious and not restful… I have 4-6 dreams every night and never feel like I’m truly asleep.
Shouldn’t be hard to figure out with an EKG and a decent graph to see what your aiming for.
It’s not dreaming that is tedious. My understanding is that the brain always dream but that you only remember your dreams if you wake up during them. So, remembering 4-6 dreams would mean that you wake up (probably unconsciously) multiple times per night. It’s probably what is tiring rather than the dream itself.
Disclaimer : I have no source and I may be wrong. It’s my understanding.
Disclaimer : I have no source and I may be wrong. It’s my understanding.
I don’t feel physically tired in the mornings. I ran in high school 8-10 miles a day and would collapse, waking up dream free.
Now I wake up refreshed but I’m sick of watching the same rehashed combinations of dreams. I can do lucid dreaming, but I’d just rather not dream at all
Now I wake up refreshed but I’m sick of watching the same rehashed combinations of dreams. I can do lucid dreaming, but I’d just rather not dream at all
You always dream. That's the thing. Unless something is seriously wrong you dream every night. You might not want to remember them but you'll dream all the same.
Might be a symptom of my good memory? Shame. I like the memory but not the dreams
I almost never remember my dreams. When I do, it means I had a really bad night's sleep and I don't feel rested.
4 to 6 dreams every night sounds exhausting. You should probably check it out with a doctor, it seems you're subconsciously waking up too often during the night.
4 to 6 dreams every night sounds exhausting. You should probably check it out with a doctor, it seems you're subconsciously waking up too often during the night.
It is not dreaming.
The "waves" don't exist in the brain - which is why I'm surprised this title survived publication.
The wave is the electrical activity we measure as a result of the synchronous firing of neurons which is the hallmark of deep sleep.
The slow-wave is linked to the glymphatic flush.
We can't create slow-waves, however, we can increase their power (more synchronous firing).
This is known science, and we've been working to commercialize it for the last 4 years. Getting close. https://affectablesleep.com
The "waves" don't exist in the brain - which is why I'm surprised this title survived publication.
The wave is the electrical activity we measure as a result of the synchronous firing of neurons which is the hallmark of deep sleep.
The slow-wave is linked to the glymphatic flush.
We can't create slow-waves, however, we can increase their power (more synchronous firing).
This is known science, and we've been working to commercialize it for the last 4 years. Getting close. https://affectablesleep.com
Modafinil does exactly this.
Huh? It cleans the brain? Care to elaborate or provide a source?
It certainly keeps you alert. Removes the ‘sleepy/tired’ feeling. But it might not clean the brain.
It might change the comfort level of ‘clean’ you brain finds acceptable before commanding the janitor out of his closet.
It might change the comfort level of ‘clean’ you brain finds acceptable before commanding the janitor out of his closet.
I suspect quite the opposite: modafanil is going to interrupt your sleep such that your body doesn't dispose of waste from the brain as well.
meditation
After learning this and reading about lion’s mane reversing plaque induced dementia in rats I started taking it as “brain washing detergent” before bed. It gives me some wildly vivid dreams and I always wake up more refreshed.
I take herb pills, and I get crazy dreams if I don't drink enough water with them. Try chugging more water before bed or when you take the pills.
I wonder if anyone has done a study yet on how the Glymphatic nervous system is impacted by rTMS (repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation) instead of drugs (pharmacological solutions).
Anyone deep into this field around?
Anyone deep into this field around?
We're in the field, but with auditory stimulation, not rTMS.
Glymphatic System activity is linked to the synchronous firing of neurons that define slow-wave sleep.
If you interrupt the brain near the peak of a slow wave, the brain response is to increase this synchronous firing, increasing delta power, and the flushing of the glymphatic system.
Monash University here in Australia is looking into the impact this may have on Alzheimer's prevention.
There isn't a drug that I'm aware of that is as effective.
You can do what we do with rTMS, light stimulation, haptics, etc. it's more about interrupting the brain than it is creating a slow-wave, as far as everything I am aware of in the current literature.
We link to a few studies on our website https://affectablesleep.com - I'll be posting more links soon (we just launched our re-brand 2 days ago).
Glymphatic System activity is linked to the synchronous firing of neurons that define slow-wave sleep.
If you interrupt the brain near the peak of a slow wave, the brain response is to increase this synchronous firing, increasing delta power, and the flushing of the glymphatic system.
Monash University here in Australia is looking into the impact this may have on Alzheimer's prevention.
There isn't a drug that I'm aware of that is as effective.
You can do what we do with rTMS, light stimulation, haptics, etc. it's more about interrupting the brain than it is creating a slow-wave, as far as everything I am aware of in the current literature.
We link to a few studies on our website https://affectablesleep.com - I'll be posting more links soon (we just launched our re-brand 2 days ago).
Sounds like the brain is doing garbage collection during sleep.
Try this metaphor:
Your brain is a movie theater. When it's in use it's all bright lights and gripping soundtrack and shiny shiny. But once in a while you have to chase out the Observers and shut down the projector and then go grab a hose and ruthlessly flush out all the tracked-in mud and popcorn remnants and stepped-on gummy bears and who the hell knows what other gunk.
Your brain is a movie theater. When it's in use it's all bright lights and gripping soundtrack and shiny shiny. But once in a while you have to chase out the Observers and shut down the projector and then go grab a hose and ruthlessly flush out all the tracked-in mud and popcorn remnants and stepped-on gummy bears and who the hell knows what other gunk.
Simulation confirmed.
could someone eli5 this for me pls.
Think of it as whilst awake all the experience and sensory input, nutrients(or lack) you experience throughout the day result in basically the brain doing all its activites and various parts, functions and syncopated waves/rthyms etc get out of phase.
Much like you occasionally reboot your machine to flush and re-align memory etc...
When you sleep, your sensory input systems are handed a surrogate (dreams) whist the rest of your brain gets back into phase with itself, and the idea is that this allows for an 'alignment' of sorts within the brain which allows for the cerberal fluids to more porously flow through the brain and carry away ionic and other molecules which freely float through the brain.
As the rain washes the paths and the streets after a windy, dusty day...
To allow for a fresh path where the previous wake-cycles experiences in molocules can be more properly absorbed into the brain and your neurons can 'take in' what happened all wake cycle.
Much like you occasionally reboot your machine to flush and re-align memory etc...
When you sleep, your sensory input systems are handed a surrogate (dreams) whist the rest of your brain gets back into phase with itself, and the idea is that this allows for an 'alignment' of sorts within the brain which allows for the cerberal fluids to more porously flow through the brain and carry away ionic and other molecules which freely float through the brain.
As the rain washes the paths and the streets after a windy, dusty day...
To allow for a fresh path where the previous wake-cycles experiences in molocules can be more properly absorbed into the brain and your neurons can 'take in' what happened all wake cycle.
Thank you.
Any recommendations on how long should I sleep for this process to kick off and get completed? Or does it happen all the time I am sleeping?
Any recommendations on how long should I sleep for this process to kick off and get completed? Or does it happen all the time I am sleeping?
It happens all the time in the appropriate phase of sleep.
So just get as much sleep as your body is saying "HEY BITCH!"
Also - you will have more beneficial sleep in fully dark, no-screens (or other magnetic objects (cell phone, under pillow, for example) near head.
make sure you dont have sleep apnia (make sure you have clear deep breathing when sleeping)....
So just get as much sleep as your body is saying "HEY BITCH!"
Also - you will have more beneficial sleep in fully dark, no-screens (or other magnetic objects (cell phone, under pillow, for example) near head.
make sure you dont have sleep apnia (make sure you have clear deep breathing when sleeping)....
I recall a study a while back that suggested sleep flushing toxins was the reason lack of sleep was fatal; and that they prevented it with some drugs
In rats or something
In rats or something
Rapid eye movement (REM) phase is particularly important for brain function. Deep phase is crucial for the body repair.
Notably, synthesized waves generated through transcranial optogenetic stimulation substantially potentiated cerebrospinal fluid-to-interstitial fluid perfusion.
No wonder Musk is interested in this area of research.
This line indicates that with an optigenetic implant you can substitute sleep with something more efficient.
No wonder Musk is interested in this area of research.
This line indicates that with an optigenetic implant you can substitute sleep with something more efficient.
I'm sorry but your comment is incredibly I'll informed.
Not only because you think Musk is any where near the leader in the implant space, but more so that you don't understand optogenetics. The device referenced here was transcranial (i.e., non-invasive) but regardless optogenetics requires tagging specific neurons with an opsin (usually via viral vector).
I'm sorry for being curt but this is the 4th or 5th neuroscience post in the last 72h that HN have blasted with shit takes. If I wanted misunderstood science I'd revive my Reddit account.
Not only because you think Musk is any where near the leader in the implant space, but more so that you don't understand optogenetics. The device referenced here was transcranial (i.e., non-invasive) but regardless optogenetics requires tagging specific neurons with an opsin (usually via viral vector).
I'm sorry for being curt but this is the 4th or 5th neuroscience post in the last 72h that HN have blasted with shit takes. If I wanted misunderstood science I'd revive my Reddit account.
I am very aware how optogenetics works, I wasted some part of my live getting channelrhodopsins into cells to trigger neurons.
Yes you are right one would probably use transient gene therapy tho make a modification like that, but transcranial methods are afaik for human adults less suitable since the structures lying above the stuff you usually want to stimulate are simply too thick, so a hypothetical sleep replacement machine would probably need to be an implant. That is unless you can use self-refocusing lasers or holograms for stimulation, but I do not see how one would do this unless you replace most of the skull with glass.
The point with Musk was a joke more or less.
Though it’s true that he is probably the only person both morally ambiguous enough to even try to build a dystopian sleep replacement machine and capable of getting funding for it.
Maybe a Reddit account is a good idea.
Yes you are right one would probably use transient gene therapy tho make a modification like that, but transcranial methods are afaik for human adults less suitable since the structures lying above the stuff you usually want to stimulate are simply too thick, so a hypothetical sleep replacement machine would probably need to be an implant. That is unless you can use self-refocusing lasers or holograms for stimulation, but I do not see how one would do this unless you replace most of the skull with glass.
The point with Musk was a joke more or less.
Though it’s true that he is probably the only person both morally ambiguous enough to even try to build a dystopian sleep replacement machine and capable of getting funding for it.
Maybe a Reddit account is a good idea.
HN is great but it's only illusory that it has smarter people than Reddit. We're all just people rising to our incompetence to the limit the system allows.
I thought this was the prevailing theory anyway? Is this just confirming that?
that explains why my brain is full of trash and I love sleep but rarely get it
I immediately start to think about the effect of smartphone related waves in the room while sleeping.
Brain waves are approximately in the 1hz to 100hz range. While smartphone waves are much higher frequency. AC however is 50/60hz depending on country. Maybe I'm overly cautious, but I have a thick wire that runs right next to the natural spot for my pillow I very intentionally put the pillow on the other side of the bed.
I read about it few years ago in Matthew Walker's book "Why we sleep".
Imagine I said this in a nice way. Haven't we known this for a while? Specifically during deep non rem sleep. For the lazy, what's new here?
Is this news? Lookup glynphatic system. I thought it was known that it flushes out waste products during sleep.
So garbage collection is not such a bad idea after all...
1/3 of compute time spent on garbage collection is pretty inefficient!
Well if it gives you an uptime of 80-110 years, that’s pretty useful.
What if it's garbage collection and NN training/backprop time?
Then it starts sounding like a great deal to me at least.
Then it starts sounding like a great deal to me at least.
Only in f it's exclusively for GC.
If it's opportunistic GC, then it's simply running when nothing else is.
IOW, we may need the sleep for a different reason, and that is when the load is low enough to allow the GC to run.
Assume that we can trigger this while awake. This doesn't mean that we don't need to sleep for some other reason.
If it's opportunistic GC, then it's simply running when nothing else is.
IOW, we may need the sleep for a different reason, and that is when the load is low enough to allow the GC to run.
Assume that we can trigger this while awake. This doesn't mean that we don't need to sleep for some other reason.
Maybe it's comforting to think that the time is not only spent with garbage collection. That's one part of sleep, but by far not the only one.
Have you seen this volume of garbage?!
It didn't get the memo on big 'O'.
GC with a time window. Maybe there's a paper there.
Where sleeping is an acceptable cost.
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Great, now how do I sleep inside a mouse?
That's a really interesting scientific finding. From a personal experience, once I closed my eyes and actually observed this phenomenon. I could observe many spherical waves of light each pulsating, and not only that but I could feel the effect of each wave viscerally. It definitely felt healing. I wasn't sure what this was, was it the vibes of meditators around the world? Maybe this research finding is what I was observing.
Reflexively, that doesn't make sense. I cannot imagine perceiving ionic CSF flow with my eyes.
But thinking about it more, maybe there is something to it? I'm wholly unqualified to speculate here, but I know computers and computers are exactly the same as everything in the real world, so let's go! ...
- When restful and with my eyes closed, I definitely "see" waves move across my field of vision. My eyes see "black" (or dark gray) with slightly lighter edges that move and act like a wavefront in a fluid. There's distinct flow, and (minor) swirling and interference. I've seen these since I was very young, and I have no idea if it's a common thing or if it has a name. It must. I've mentioned it to a very small number of other non-experts but no one has ever recognized it. (I also sometimes see tiny colored tiles that light up in moving masses -- again rarely mentioned but never recognized, probably an unrelated phenomenon...)
- I do not think these are simply phosphenes, because there is no external proximate stimuli. Though I suppose we all live in environments saturated with EMF, most of the time, and a proper test would require being in a very remote area (and that's probably not enough). Though if I can "see" the presence of EMF, I'm totally making some phone calls to Charles Xavier's people.
- I've theorized that this was fluid in my eye (eyelid is too thin) moving around and refracting what little light is getting through in a dark room. But it also happens when I am completely still (though nothing in the body is ever completely still), and it also happens in complete darkness.
- The "shape" of the waves does not resemble anything that could be related to blood vessels in the eyelid. And again, complete darkness.
- So, is it possible that it's actually this ionic flow of CSF through the vision-sensing part of the brain? Not actually light coming through my eyeballs at all, but fluidlike electrical variations in the parts of the brain itself which are sensitive to the electrical signals normally coming from the optic nerves?
I have no idea. But it's an fun new angle to consider in the idle moments while I watch the waves flow before I fall asleep.
(That said, please feel free to correct my wild speculation if there's an obvious explanation that has not intersected my completely-unrelated fields of study! :)
But thinking about it more, maybe there is something to it? I'm wholly unqualified to speculate here, but I know computers and computers are exactly the same as everything in the real world, so let's go! ...
- When restful and with my eyes closed, I definitely "see" waves move across my field of vision. My eyes see "black" (or dark gray) with slightly lighter edges that move and act like a wavefront in a fluid. There's distinct flow, and (minor) swirling and interference. I've seen these since I was very young, and I have no idea if it's a common thing or if it has a name. It must. I've mentioned it to a very small number of other non-experts but no one has ever recognized it. (I also sometimes see tiny colored tiles that light up in moving masses -- again rarely mentioned but never recognized, probably an unrelated phenomenon...)
- I do not think these are simply phosphenes, because there is no external proximate stimuli. Though I suppose we all live in environments saturated with EMF, most of the time, and a proper test would require being in a very remote area (and that's probably not enough). Though if I can "see" the presence of EMF, I'm totally making some phone calls to Charles Xavier's people.
- I've theorized that this was fluid in my eye (eyelid is too thin) moving around and refracting what little light is getting through in a dark room. But it also happens when I am completely still (though nothing in the body is ever completely still), and it also happens in complete darkness.
- The "shape" of the waves does not resemble anything that could be related to blood vessels in the eyelid. And again, complete darkness.
- So, is it possible that it's actually this ionic flow of CSF through the vision-sensing part of the brain? Not actually light coming through my eyeballs at all, but fluidlike electrical variations in the parts of the brain itself which are sensitive to the electrical signals normally coming from the optic nerves?
I have no idea. But it's an fun new angle to consider in the idle moments while I watch the waves flow before I fall asleep.
(That said, please feel free to correct my wild speculation if there's an obvious explanation that has not intersected my completely-unrelated fields of study! :)
I deliberately didn't use the word "see" when phrasing my response. I used the word observed because it was an observation, not a seeing. And I'm not describing a flow of vague amorphous whitish material, I know what you're talking about and I'm not describing that.
I tried to observe the phenomena yesterday again and couldn't observe it but it was very specifically this in the past: spherical orbs of white light expanding from a centre. There were many of these, and my perception was that the nature of this geometric expanding shape was healing. To describe it more clearly, many years ago I felt that the perfect geometric spherical nature of these expanding waves were designed to gently round off rough edges. To make an analogy, imagine kneading some play dough over and over again. When you use your hands to do so, every time your hands make contact with the play dough, the play dough changes shape slightly because of the contact between your hands and the play dough and it gets softer. Now apply this concept to the idea of energetic waves making contact and passing through the material substrate of the brain and the rest of the body (yes I observed the waves applying to more than just my mind). It was my physical and conscious perception that as the spherical waves emanated from some center, they gently readjusted the physical substrate that they passed through. And because there were so many of them in different spatial locations, this readjustment was incredibly refined.
I was slightly disappointed to see my comment down voted but I'm not too surprised. I stand by my description as an accurate and well considered, rational description of what I had observed in the past.
I tried to observe the phenomena yesterday again and couldn't observe it but it was very specifically this in the past: spherical orbs of white light expanding from a centre. There were many of these, and my perception was that the nature of this geometric expanding shape was healing. To describe it more clearly, many years ago I felt that the perfect geometric spherical nature of these expanding waves were designed to gently round off rough edges. To make an analogy, imagine kneading some play dough over and over again. When you use your hands to do so, every time your hands make contact with the play dough, the play dough changes shape slightly because of the contact between your hands and the play dough and it gets softer. Now apply this concept to the idea of energetic waves making contact and passing through the material substrate of the brain and the rest of the body (yes I observed the waves applying to more than just my mind). It was my physical and conscious perception that as the spherical waves emanated from some center, they gently readjusted the physical substrate that they passed through. And because there were so many of them in different spatial locations, this readjustment was incredibly refined.
I was slightly disappointed to see my comment down voted but I'm not too surprised. I stand by my description as an accurate and well considered, rational description of what I had observed in the past.
I didn't mean to put you on the defensive. I used the word "perceive" in response to your comment, and only used "see" for the description of my personal observations.
I didn't downvote it, but I wasn't sure I understood your first comment. Others might have also been confused.
Anyway, it's all fascinating to me. I am inadequately schooled to know what is a novel observation, but when I hear experts talk the common theme is how little we really understand about the brain. Obviously, my "little" and their "little" are very different things.
I didn't downvote it, but I wasn't sure I understood your first comment. Others might have also been confused.
Anyway, it's all fascinating to me. I am inadequately schooled to know what is a novel observation, but when I hear experts talk the common theme is how little we really understand about the brain. Obviously, my "little" and their "little" are very different things.
No problem, you didn't put me on the defensive, I was making the down vote comment in general, not to you.
Ok, I have never told anyone this, but I also sometimes wake up and “see” like a waterfall effect over my vision. It only happens very rarely and only for less than a minute after I get woken from a deep sleep. It is not unlike a moving sensation or water moving over my eyes. I realized that it is probably fluid moving over my visual cortex and being interpreted as vision. Seems weird and I have nothing to back it up on, but it has happened multiple times over my lifetime and the sensation is exactly the same every time.
I may have seen that as well -- is it vaguely like the visual noise you see when coming out of anaesthesia or after having passed out?
I've always assumed it is caused by ~"static in the visual cortex", while your interpreter "syncs up" / "tunes in" to the usual signal.
I'm sure that's another tortured computation/communication analogy, but it's all I got.
I've always assumed it is caused by ~"static in the visual cortex", while your interpreter "syncs up" / "tunes in" to the usual signal.
I'm sure that's another tortured computation/communication analogy, but it's all I got.
I'm not talking about the vague flow of amorphous material, I can perceive that too but it's not what I'm referring to. I made a follow up reply where I describe specifically what this phenomena is and my hypothesis on the mechanism behind the healing.
Perhaps it's how meditation balances the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. But yeah, I know when my mediation is deepening because the rhythmic pulsation up my spine into my base brain begins.
I'm not talking about the general effect of meditation which is to relax the body and increase the flow throughout the body. I was talking very specifically about this concept of spherical expanding waves of light. To make an analogy, it resembles a moderately white light expanding from a centre. See my other comment where I describe how such a phenomena could be healing and restorative using a physical analogy.
Are you perhaps describing phosphenes?
No I'm not. Please see my other comment where I make a physical analogy to why spherical expanding waves of light may be healing and restorative.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4636982/
In short it explains, mechanistically, why poor sleep affects daily cognition, mental health, and age-related declines. Robust scientific theories explain more of the evidence. The glymphatic nervous system explains why sleep is so key to surviving and thriving. Maiken Nedergaard will end up winning the Nobel for its discovery.