Boston built a ton of lab buildings. Now many are empty(boston.com)
boston.com
Boston built a ton of lab buildings. Now many are empty
https://www.boston.com/news/the-boston-globe/2024/03/23/the-boston-area-built-a-ton-of-lab-space-now-many-of-those-buildings-are-opening-empty/
28 comments
> Boston was always a great way to experience NYC-lite.
Since when? Who goes to boston for the 'nyc-lite' experience?
> But the mass gentrification of LIC, Brooklyn and Jersey City has now made it possible to have NYC-lite within NYC itself.
What are you talking about? LIC and Brooklyn are part of NYC. It is the NYC experience. Are you confusing NYC with Manhattan?
> So it makes Boston less appealing.
Nobody moves to boston for a NYC-lite experience. Have you ever been to NYC or Boston?
> P.S: I say this in jest, but make DeSantis ship a few more migrants up to new england. The Mexican food scene is trash and needs help.
What?
Since when? Who goes to boston for the 'nyc-lite' experience?
> But the mass gentrification of LIC, Brooklyn and Jersey City has now made it possible to have NYC-lite within NYC itself.
What are you talking about? LIC and Brooklyn are part of NYC. It is the NYC experience. Are you confusing NYC with Manhattan?
> So it makes Boston less appealing.
Nobody moves to boston for a NYC-lite experience. Have you ever been to NYC or Boston?
> P.S: I say this in jest, but make DeSantis ship a few more migrants up to new england. The Mexican food scene is trash and needs help.
What?
> Since when? Who goes to boston for the 'nyc-lite' experience?
I’ve lived in both. This is a thing. NYC fans will say that nothing compares and only NYC is NYC, but people outside it do think of Boston as a baby NYC.
It has a ton of similarities to their urban fabric, but it’s just saw smaller. It has similar architecture, people, weather, etc. it’s a very walkable city, with a vibrant cultural scene.
It’s just… less than NYC. Less food choice, less cultural options, smaller, less transit, less jobs, less people, etc.
I’ve lived in both. This is a thing. NYC fans will say that nothing compares and only NYC is NYC, but people outside it do think of Boston as a baby NYC.
It has a ton of similarities to their urban fabric, but it’s just saw smaller. It has similar architecture, people, weather, etc. it’s a very walkable city, with a vibrant cultural scene.
It’s just… less than NYC. Less food choice, less cultural options, smaller, less transit, less jobs, less people, etc.
Somebody in real life was just saying something similar about Boston’s appeal as a mini nyc. I was genuinely pretty surprised — I think of Boston as pretty different from New York (much, much smaller, lots whiter, more educated; in my head Chicago or even Philly are closer to nyc-lite), but I can imagine a bunch of new englanders do move to Boston to get an urban experience.
It might be reflecting my tech bias.
The typical tech person only hangs out with young highly-educated transplants in NYC. Racially, those demographics are fairly similar between NYC and Boston. Philly simply does not have the high concentration of top-tier human capital that Boston or NYC offer. Good luck finding a half-decent tech job in Philly.
If anything, Boston universities have ramped up their diversity hiring, so a typical highly-educated group will include a ton of racially diverse people. Intellectually however, Boston has stricter staratification between blue collar and white collar professionals than NYC/Philly.
The typical tech person only hangs out with young highly-educated transplants in NYC. Racially, those demographics are fairly similar between NYC and Boston. Philly simply does not have the high concentration of top-tier human capital that Boston or NYC offer. Good luck finding a half-decent tech job in Philly.
If anything, Boston universities have ramped up their diversity hiring, so a typical highly-educated group will include a ton of racially diverse people. Intellectually however, Boston has stricter staratification between blue collar and white collar professionals than NYC/Philly.
Are you some recruiter or something? Your comments have been the most bizarre I've read in a while. It reads like PR. Still wondering how LIC and Brooklyn is NYC-lite?
huh, could you elaborate ? I've been on here long enough that my authenticity is secure. But, I am genuinely curious about why my writing comes across as 'fake' ? Is it just this interaction or my comments in general ?
I'm for real. I'm trying to be better in how I communicate. And clearly, I still have work to do. And no, I am not a recruiter, just a distracted engineer like everyone else on here.
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As for the Brooklyn & LIC bit, it's from personal experience. I have moved around a lot over the last few years, and have found myself comparing these cities side-by-side. Manhattan is most people's image of NYC. LIC and Brooklyn are quieter, more human scale, have more green spaces and the pace of things slower.
I didn't mention Chicago because it's a disservice to call it NYC-lite. Chicago is distinctly itself in a way that makes the comparison feel unfair. Additionally, being in NYC-lite implies wanting the same geographic advantages.
I'm for real. I'm trying to be better in how I communicate. And clearly, I still have work to do. And no, I am not a recruiter, just a distracted engineer like everyone else on here.
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As for the Brooklyn & LIC bit, it's from personal experience. I have moved around a lot over the last few years, and have found myself comparing these cities side-by-side. Manhattan is most people's image of NYC. LIC and Brooklyn are quieter, more human scale, have more green spaces and the pace of things slower.
I didn't mention Chicago because it's a disservice to call it NYC-lite. Chicago is distinctly itself in a way that makes the comparison feel unfair. Additionally, being in NYC-lite implies wanting the same geographic advantages.
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> NYC fans will say that nothing compares and only NYC is NYC
That's not what I'm saying at all. When I think of mini-NYC, I think chicago. Maybe even philly. Someone saying boston is mini-nyc is like someone saying SF is mini-Los Angeles. It's absurd.
> but people outside it do think of Boston as a baby NYC.
Who? Outside of where? The nyc metro? The mid atlantic? The entire northeast? I've heard people saying chicago as being similar to NYC or even toronto and I can see the resemblance. But boston?
> It has similar architecture, people, weather, etc.
Boston has similar architecture? People? Huh? We have the same accents too?
> It’s just… less than NYC. Less food choice, less cultural options, smaller, less transit, less jobs, less people, etc.
That's every city in the country. Is SF NYC-lite? Is New Orleans NYC-lite?
It seems like people are cavalierly using 'NYC-lite' as another word for small city? Then I guess everything is a mini-NYC or NYC-lite.
To me, growing up, NYC, boston, SF, new orleans, LA, etc were viewed as unique type of cities.
That's not what I'm saying at all. When I think of mini-NYC, I think chicago. Maybe even philly. Someone saying boston is mini-nyc is like someone saying SF is mini-Los Angeles. It's absurd.
> but people outside it do think of Boston as a baby NYC.
Who? Outside of where? The nyc metro? The mid atlantic? The entire northeast? I've heard people saying chicago as being similar to NYC or even toronto and I can see the resemblance. But boston?
> It has similar architecture, people, weather, etc.
Boston has similar architecture? People? Huh? We have the same accents too?
> It’s just… less than NYC. Less food choice, less cultural options, smaller, less transit, less jobs, less people, etc.
That's every city in the country. Is SF NYC-lite? Is New Orleans NYC-lite?
It seems like people are cavalierly using 'NYC-lite' as another word for small city? Then I guess everything is a mini-NYC or NYC-lite.
To me, growing up, NYC, boston, SF, new orleans, LA, etc were viewed as unique type of cities.
Commercial real estate is still getting absolutely destroyed by Covid repercussions. I honestly don't know how things will turn around unless we get a bad recession where employers say "Hey, if you want a job, come into the office 5 days a week".
In commercial real estate in general it’s unsurprising, but you can’t do lab work from home. The article indicates that labs are suffering from an industry slowdown, which is a bit different than everyone wfh.
could be the terrible working conditions you're often subjected to in wet labs. I am / was in chemistry, but have put a lot of effort into transitioning into a more programming / data heavy role to avoid the bullshit, lack of safety standards, and poor pay that comes with doing work in wet labs.
The problem is the same everywhere at the moment, no one wants to pay for good work anymore, but areas like research and wet labs which are dangerous and thankless jobs in the first place, this has the added problem of employers having been coasting on peoples passion and dedication these last few decades already, so this extra burden is simply too much for most. The dam has burst and people are simple leaving, and it would be too little to simple 'go back to how it was'. Even paying more than what was being paid at this stage would be too little, once you've started re-spec'ing, why would you stop?
The problem is the same everywhere at the moment, no one wants to pay for good work anymore, but areas like research and wet labs which are dangerous and thankless jobs in the first place, this has the added problem of employers having been coasting on peoples passion and dedication these last few decades already, so this extra burden is simply too much for most. The dam has burst and people are simple leaving, and it would be too little to simple 'go back to how it was'. Even paying more than what was being paid at this stage would be too little, once you've started re-spec'ing, why would you stop?
I don' think it's a bad gamble, it'll just take longer then expected to lease all of this. IMHO, I think the Boston "tech hub" has pivoted in the last 20 years to biotech/life sciences. Kendall in particular seems to have more and more biotech, multiple new buildings around the Science Museum and Assembly Sq. Even Rt 128 "the computer commute" is ... well is far less techy these days (no more DEC, Prime). Who are the big s/w companies still based in Boston? EMC, Akamai? ...?
My opinion is that the pivot is driven by non-competes [without a much needed CA style prohibition]. Long ago you needed expensive computer time or pricy tools to write software, but these days you don't need a VAX to write software or an expensive MSDN subscription provided by your employer. You can do it on your personal laptop at home with open source tools -- your employer's non-competes significantly stifle this sort of innovation. However, Biotech and life sciences needs expensive lab space, specialized plumbing and infrastructure and complex equipment -- you can't really cook up a new drug in your kitchen on the weekends as you might with some new software idea.
So I think there's still a ton of super-smart people coming out of the universities in the Boston area, but the software folks are being drawn elsewhere (Silicon Valley), whilst the biotech ones stay because of the inertia here.
My opinion is that the pivot is driven by non-competes [without a much needed CA style prohibition]. Long ago you needed expensive computer time or pricy tools to write software, but these days you don't need a VAX to write software or an expensive MSDN subscription provided by your employer. You can do it on your personal laptop at home with open source tools -- your employer's non-competes significantly stifle this sort of innovation. However, Biotech and life sciences needs expensive lab space, specialized plumbing and infrastructure and complex equipment -- you can't really cook up a new drug in your kitchen on the weekends as you might with some new software idea.
So I think there's still a ton of super-smart people coming out of the universities in the Boston area, but the software folks are being drawn elsewhere (Silicon Valley), whilst the biotech ones stay because of the inertia here.
Agreed. Non-competes always seemed incongruous to the tech/startup zeitgeist of the last 10-15 years. But just by walking around in Boston, one can simply look at the architecture and infer it’s a parochial, old school little city. Power struggles abound, and corporations tend to dominate there.
Increasingly I have come to believe that managers learned to represent their tech companies as “startups” in order to justify disorganization and less than stellar salaries.
Increasingly I have come to believe that managers learned to represent their tech companies as “startups” in order to justify disorganization and less than stellar salaries.
Exactly, while the legislature let EMC "lobby away" the attempts to meaningfully reform non-competes, Gov. Healy wonders why the AI lead has slipped from the state and is now forming an AI "task force":
https://whdh.com/news/gov-healey-assembles-artificial-intell...
“Boston, in general, was one of the leading spots for AI,” said task force member Usama Fayyad, who is Executive Director of the Institute for Experiential AI at Northeastern University. “For I would say a couple of decades, in the very beginnings of artificial intelligence.”
“The governor was saying, ‘Hey, why have we let this lead slip away from our state and how do we bring it back in a big way?’ I think the state is going to identify areas of strength where we can have distinction,” he said.
https://whdh.com/news/gov-healey-assembles-artificial-intell...
“Boston, in general, was one of the leading spots for AI,” said task force member Usama Fayyad, who is Executive Director of the Institute for Experiential AI at Northeastern University. “For I would say a couple of decades, in the very beginnings of artificial intelligence.”
“The governor was saying, ‘Hey, why have we let this lead slip away from our state and how do we bring it back in a big way?’ I think the state is going to identify areas of strength where we can have distinction,” he said.
Boston/Mass has let every tech "lead" for the last 60 years "slip away," so why would AI be any different?
Boston has never actually had a lead, but it has had the opportunity to be competitive, especially when MIT was significantly better than Stanford, but every time things have played out the same way.
And yes, there have been task forces and various govt programs and all that before. They all say and do the same things and get the same results, namely re-elected and annoyed when someone points out that they've moved on to ranting about other things, having done nothing to stop yet another tech from playing out elsewhere.
Boston has never actually had a lead, but it has had the opportunity to be competitive, especially when MIT was significantly better than Stanford, but every time things have played out the same way.
And yes, there have been task forces and various govt programs and all that before. They all say and do the same things and get the same results, namely re-elected and annoyed when someone points out that they've moved on to ranting about other things, having done nothing to stop yet another tech from playing out elsewhere.
A similar issue is happening in San Francisco in Mission Bay, who's builders are the exact same as those in Kendall Square
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Honestly I’m tired of landlords expecting good returns, I’m glad they had this wake up call that yes, in fact there is risk in every investment. What really irks me is when they prefer vacancy to lowering rents.
> they prefer vacancy to lowering rents.
My understanding is that this results from the terms of commercial loans. If they were to sign a lease at a lower rate, they'd have to lower the appraised value of the real estate, which would blow up the loan.
But offering "concessions" like free months of rent, or having apparently any rate of vacancy doesn't affect the loan.
My understanding is that this results from the terms of commercial loans. If they were to sign a lease at a lower rate, they'd have to lower the appraised value of the real estate, which would blow up the loan.
But offering "concessions" like free months of rent, or having apparently any rate of vacancy doesn't affect the loan.
I think the same sentiment applies though. Banks rubber-stamped loans for commercial real estate developers because they thought it was free money. Now they know it isn't.
Once rates go down and borrowing becomes easy again, I think they will see Biotech tenants move in. I think lots of people who would start something are staying put because they can't raise money at reasonable terms now. Same As SSF.
Turn to housing
That sounds easy, but it's expensive and difficult. The infrastructure (plumbing, HVAC, electric, egress) needs of office and other commercial spaces are very different compared to what residential units need.
So, for example: Bathrooms. While there may have been one or two [sets of] bathrooms per section of floor in commercial use, and this worked fine, residential tenants want at least one full bathroom all for themselves in their relatively small 1, 2, or 3-bedroom spread.
Or kitchens: What might have been a few limited break-room-type kitchenettes per floor needs to be a full kitchen, per-unit.
Those pipes need to live somewhere. (And this can be accomplished, but it's a somewhat monumental task to design and implement.)
So, for example: Bathrooms. While there may have been one or two [sets of] bathrooms per section of floor in commercial use, and this worked fine, residential tenants want at least one full bathroom all for themselves in their relatively small 1, 2, or 3-bedroom spread.
Or kitchens: What might have been a few limited break-room-type kitchenettes per floor needs to be a full kitchen, per-unit.
Those pipes need to live somewhere. (And this can be accomplished, but it's a somewhat monumental task to design and implement.)
Given prices, I think a lot of singles who don't spend much time at hone would rather have a dorm like technical residence in an ideal location. It is of course illegal to have a boarding house in the Boston area because it would lead to a plague, of lower real estate prices.
That means even higher density, which means even more problems with things like HVAC and egress: Certainly, an independent adult -- even one who is willing to live with communal bathrooms -- would like to set their own temperature and not die in a fire.
There's no free ride here, I don't think. Again, they're solvable problems but they're expensive to solve.
There's no free ride here, I don't think. Again, they're solvable problems but they're expensive to solve.
I hope they learned something and aren't using forced hot air.. I don't really think the challenges are that high if lab space was designed poorly it is still better than typical Boston area residential, which certainly won't let you turn down the heat.
As for fire safety and egresses it basically begins outside the unit, so a hotel or boarding house and a office space actually have the same egress rules while a 3 bedroom is a death trap.
As for fire safety and egresses it basically begins outside the unit, so a hotel or boarding house and a office space actually have the same egress rules while a 3 bedroom is a death trap.
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We seem to have reached peak education a few years ago, and I don't see it growing much more in the next decade. Their public k12 schools are still amazing, but that's more so a testament to the outer suburbs than the core urban area. Public transportation was a huge draw, and it's in dire straits. The 'next tech hub' thing never took off, with Austin, LIC, NJ & Atlanta growing faster than Boston. Biotech is doing great, but as it moves from academia to industry....I'm seeing a slow siphoning of biotech talent into the bay area.
The biggest issue is how well NYC is doing. Boston was always a great way to experience NYC-lite. But the mass gentrification of LIC, Brooklyn and Jersey City has now made it possible to have NYC-lite within NYC itself. So it makes Boston less appealing.
As far as cities go, Boston is still doing amazing. But I am going to change my optimism around it from 'best positioned to see massive growth' to 'good city that does 1 or 2 things well'.
Thankfully for Boston their problems seem solvable. Give incentives to MIT/Harvard grads to set up startups locally. Make it easier to build housing and fix public transport....the city will be back to #1 on my highest growth potential list.
P.S: I say this in jest, but make DeSantis ship a few more migrants up to new england. The Mexican food scene is trash and needs help.