My Seth Godin decline letter. Thoughts?
76 comments
I'd actually be a little bit insulted to get that as a response. It reads like a load of over-dramatized crap.
Part of what's wrong with so many of these internet-marketers is that everything seems to be positioned as various degrees of "super rockstar ninja greatness". There is never any bad, unmarketable, stupid ideas. IE: no one wants to put their reputation on the line by making a potentially bad call. So, he won't say that your proposal was disagreeable, only that other proposals were even more "super rockstar ninja great".
IMO, if he actually had something great to offer and was bowled over-amazed-stunned at just how great an idea was, he'd find a way to nurture that, not blow it off.
Part of what's wrong with so many of these internet-marketers is that everything seems to be positioned as various degrees of "super rockstar ninja greatness". There is never any bad, unmarketable, stupid ideas. IE: no one wants to put their reputation on the line by making a potentially bad call. So, he won't say that your proposal was disagreeable, only that other proposals were even more "super rockstar ninja great".
IMO, if he actually had something great to offer and was bowled over-amazed-stunned at just how great an idea was, he'd find a way to nurture that, not blow it off.
It does ring a bit empty, doesn't it.
Bad move overall, imho. I've lost some respect for Seth Godin because of that letter. A more normal rejection letter would have been more appropriate. This letter makes him sound a bit too kitsch.
Bad move overall, imho. I've lost some respect for Seth Godin because of that letter. A more normal rejection letter would have been more appropriate. This letter makes him sound a bit too kitsch.
The letter looks very much like all of his blog posts, not sure why anyone would expect anything different from him. I'm assuming most of the people that applied to this program are frequent readers of his blog, and so hopefully the style of the letter didn't seem inappropriate to them.
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I've read a couple of Godin's book recently, this is pretty much just his tone. It sounds silly in a single example like this, but it works OK as he builds it up over a book. I suppose anyone applying to a position is pretty familiar with his works.
Oh, and Tribes needed way more than one sentence in the acknowledgements mentioning Here Comes Everybody by Clay Shirky. I'd just reread HCE before I picked up Tribes and I kept waiting to see something like "So, every example in the last three chapters and next two chapters came from this excellent book... "
Oh, and Tribes needed way more than one sentence in the acknowledgements mentioning Here Comes Everybody by Clay Shirky. I'd just reread HCE before I picked up Tribes and I kept waiting to see something like "So, every example in the last three chapters and next two chapters came from this excellent book... "
Despite familiarity with Godin's work, I'm still unsure how I feel about this particular response. It'd be great as an individual rejection (we love you, but just don't have the space!), but as a boilerplate reply requires a little suspension of disbelief.
Or maybe that's just because I got this reply not half an hour after sending in my app. :) Zing!
Or maybe that's just because I got this reply not half an hour after sending in my app. :) Zing!
>> It reads like a load of over-dramatized crap.
All of Godin's work is over-dramatized crap. That's his shtick.
All of Godin's work is over-dramatized crap. That's his shtick.
From what I can tell you spend 6 months with him, don't get paid, primarily work on his projects, learn buzzwords and "get" to work on your own personal projects in your spare time. Am I missing something?
There is much to be gained from working in the same room as someone who groks what you want to grok.
Great - more Seth Godins.
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I'm sure he got a million applications so I can see the canned response but it was a bit over the top. Maybe it's just his way and it is only one instance. Plus, let's face it, he's in the driver's seat as far as this is concerned.
Having worked with Seth on Squidoo, I can tell you that he is a pretty genuine guy. That is just his writing style.
My only problem with this letter is it is not clear if it was personal or sent to everyone rejected.
Getting a personal "you are amazing" is very different from "you are amazing" sent to few hundred people. This is a bad choice of words IMO.
Getting a personal "you are amazing" is very different from "you are amazing" sent to few hundred people. This is a bad choice of words IMO.
I think that would be key. If they were all individual, wow, that is sincere. If not - then its really just his writing style and you need to translate that into what it really means.
I know a few people whose business is to write ebooks and sales letters to sell the ebooks. They prey on desperate folks. And make a killing writing in a style very similar to this email.
This was totally miscalibrated for the audience, UNLESS the overall audience really did find "joy" from it and we're just exceptions.
This was totally miscalibrated for the audience, UNLESS the overall audience really did find "joy" from it and we're just exceptions.
It is kinda crap, but I wouldn't be insulted. It's not really any worse than more restrained form letters.
Here's what I would have responded in Seth's shoes (note: I'm a big Godin fan and think this is a killer opportunity but did not apply):
"Hi!
[this is a form letter- Given that I preach honesty in marketing, I figure I owe you that!]
I reviewed your app and am declining you for this opportunity. Overall, I was _incredibly_ impressed with the quality (and volume) of the applications. Unfortunately, because I am just one guy, I had to read through them quickly and go a lot on "gut feeling". I had to pass over some fabulous applications in favor of some slightly-more-fabulous ones. I'm sure I declined some great people. I'm sure I'll be interviewing some duds.
Due to the volume of apps, I can't send any personalized feedback on your application. I really wish I had the time to, but a guy's gotta sleep. Thanks again!"
"Hi!
[this is a form letter- Given that I preach honesty in marketing, I figure I owe you that!]
I reviewed your app and am declining you for this opportunity. Overall, I was _incredibly_ impressed with the quality (and volume) of the applications. Unfortunately, because I am just one guy, I had to read through them quickly and go a lot on "gut feeling". I had to pass over some fabulous applications in favor of some slightly-more-fabulous ones. I'm sure I declined some great people. I'm sure I'll be interviewing some duds.
Due to the volume of apps, I can't send any personalized feedback on your application. I really wish I had the time to, but a guy's gotta sleep. Thanks again!"
too nicey nicey. It doesn't sound sincere to me.
When I was applying for jobs I used to get back all sorts of crap like this.. it's silly. One company got back to me within 24 hrs with a simple: "sorry your not for us because xyz"
I reapplied instantly and in the "why are you applying" space put "because your the first company not to reject me with complete bull and just gave me a straight honest answer. I trust you."
I got the job too :)
Rule 101 of rejections: don't be nice. Be kind certainly but tell them where they went wrong. They've already been rejected - sucking up helps neither party....
When I was applying for jobs I used to get back all sorts of crap like this.. it's silly. One company got back to me within 24 hrs with a simple: "sorry your not for us because xyz"
I reapplied instantly and in the "why are you applying" space put "because your the first company not to reject me with complete bull and just gave me a straight honest answer. I trust you."
I got the job too :)
Rule 101 of rejections: don't be nice. Be kind certainly but tell them where they went wrong. They've already been rejected - sucking up helps neither party....
just curious: did your trust last or did it turn out to be unfounded?
sort of lasted - the person that hired me was a good guy to the last. The CEO was a bit of a tit..... and in the end he got too involved in my department so I left.
But the day-to-day people I worked for/with were trustworthy.
But the day-to-day people I worked for/with were trustworthy.
You got a rejection with reasons on it?
I've always either gotten either "We are pleased you interviewed but we are continuing the search" or no response at all.
Was I terrible? Was I awesome, but you cut me out for unfair and irrational reasons? I'll never know, and never know how I can improve. Does a great job of wrecking your psyche when you've been doing it for months straight.
I've always either gotten either "We are pleased you interviewed but we are continuing the search" or no response at all.
Was I terrible? Was I awesome, but you cut me out for unfair and irrational reasons? I'll never know, and never know how I can improve. Does a great job of wrecking your psyche when you've been doing it for months straight.
I've always either gotten either "We are pleased you interviewed but we are continuing the search" or no response at all.
The no response at all shit is lame. I've had that happen to me twice, and it's just rude. Even a curt form letter is better than simply discarding a person once a company decides they have no use for someone.
The no response at all shit is lame. I've had that happen to me twice, and it's just rude. Even a curt form letter is better than simply discarding a person once a company decides they have no use for someone.
The worst one was when the HR person just couldn't seem to tell me or send an email. She kept delaying me telling that they hadn't decided yet, but she'd have an answer by such-and-such date. Eventually she just stopped returning calls.
I was at the point where it took me awhile (3 weeks?) to get the hint, desperately clutching to any sort of lead.
I was at the point where it took me awhile (3 weeks?) to get the hint, desperately clutching to any sort of lead.
yup most of the other responses I got were along the same lines as you mention. Some had some nice cut and paste "you did xyz wrong" stuff but nothing that was helpful.
I sent one in to John Carmack way back in the day (circa 1996-1997). I was massively underqualified at the time.
His response was personal and compassionate. It stung at the time, but long term I've got a lot more respect for the man for it.
His response was personal and compassionate. It stung at the time, but long term I've got a lot more respect for the man for it.
good story lallysingh. I've been amazed at how many leaders in their fields are willing to give their time and input, especially if you respect their time.
Two quick stories:
1. Once emailed a prominent venture capitalist/technologist a question. It was maybe 15 words long. He responded in 5 minutes with a one word answer that truly answered my question and helped tremendously.
2. Another time I was taking a data mining class while working and I asked my professor a question. It was regarding a situation at work and a solution that I proposed. After not hearing back from my first email, I sent him a follow up email asking if he had received it. He finally replied and said that if I wanted the answer, I would have to hire him at $250/hr, his going rate. Sure, I can understand his stance in that just b/c I paying for his class and instruction does not mean that I can get free consulting. But, why couldn’t he tell me that with a reply to the first email? Why couldn’t he just tell me if my proposed solution was in the ball park or not? Here’s the zinger, I wrote the same email to the author of the book we were using in this class. He responds in 24 hours with sincere and honest feedback regarding my proposal as well as a PDF of 4 pages of the upcoming edition that covered this topic. My respect for the author sky rocketed (and now I cannot recommend his services and books fast enough). Not so much for the professor.
Two quick stories:
1. Once emailed a prominent venture capitalist/technologist a question. It was maybe 15 words long. He responded in 5 minutes with a one word answer that truly answered my question and helped tremendously.
2. Another time I was taking a data mining class while working and I asked my professor a question. It was regarding a situation at work and a solution that I proposed. After not hearing back from my first email, I sent him a follow up email asking if he had received it. He finally replied and said that if I wanted the answer, I would have to hire him at $250/hr, his going rate. Sure, I can understand his stance in that just b/c I paying for his class and instruction does not mean that I can get free consulting. But, why couldn’t he tell me that with a reply to the first email? Why couldn’t he just tell me if my proposed solution was in the ball park or not? Here’s the zinger, I wrote the same email to the author of the book we were using in this class. He responds in 24 hours with sincere and honest feedback regarding my proposal as well as a PDF of 4 pages of the upcoming edition that covered this topic. My respect for the author sky rocketed (and now I cannot recommend his services and books fast enough). Not so much for the professor.
A lot of "busy" people read email on their blackberries, so if the possible actions are difficult (not forwarding or terse responses) they forget about it (since the blackberry marks the item read and then it falls to the bottom of their inbox, never to be seen again.)
Naturally, I'm sending this from a blackberry...
Naturally, I'm sending this from a blackberry...
In a job situation (where you have fulltime HR folks and a relatively small pool of applicants), this works greak.
But, I suspect he has the same problem PG has. Rejection doesn't mean that something went wrong. And, in a high-volume scenario like this, he sure as hell doesn't have time to give people thorough responses.
But, I suspect he has the same problem PG has. Rejection doesn't mean that something went wrong. And, in a high-volume scenario like this, he sure as hell doesn't have time to give people thorough responses.
I have a hunch he could spend a day or two sending out personalized emails to each person, be it one paragraph or a page in length. He's in the business of building people to be stronger marketers; he's not doing much a service to them in telling them they are awesome but not awesome enough.
I think Godin could learn a bit from the devotion Gary Vaynerchuk shows to his audience.
I think Godin could learn a bit from the devotion Gary Vaynerchuk shows to his audience.
Agreed. But he didnt have to patronise them with a response like that..... :)
This sounds a little like being dumped along the lines of "its not you, its me."
It's not you. It's not me either! Isn't that aweseome? I mean, it's completely stupendously awesome that we're both so amazingly awesomely cool but somehow this thing just isn't working. I mean, we're not working. Together, that is. OK, so I found some other super-cool kids who are even more awesome, but that doesn't mean you're not, and it doesn't mean that I'm not, just that we're not quite so amazingly awesomely awesome as a team, which is why I've decided to dump you. Well, not dump you exactly, it's more like I'm deferring the joint awesomeness we could have had for another day, when it will be even better. Meanwhile, have a cookie.
lol I love the cookie sentence.
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Everything Seth Godin writes is either unactionable, obvious, or wrong.
I've heard this criticism of Seth a few times now. I don't disagree with the statement... but it's also not exactly a strong criticism either.
His work seems to be mostly about making us rethink the way we approach marketing, especially on the web. That is coming from the other end of the "actionable" spectrum. It is a strategy, not a tactic. All the old tactics still apply, but you use them for different ends.
His examples are, of course, simple and "obvious" in a style that many (myself included) appreciate. I've found writing a series of succinct, obvious statements that convey a greater wisdom is much harder than people give it credit for.
And, like any exploratory thinker, I don't think Seth himself would claim he's never wrong. It's all about if you can learn something about the <i>approach</i> to marketing, not memorize a bunch of steps.
Definitely a fan, not a fanatic, but I've heard this point enough that I wanted to state a counter.
His work seems to be mostly about making us rethink the way we approach marketing, especially on the web. That is coming from the other end of the "actionable" spectrum. It is a strategy, not a tactic. All the old tactics still apply, but you use them for different ends.
His examples are, of course, simple and "obvious" in a style that many (myself included) appreciate. I've found writing a series of succinct, obvious statements that convey a greater wisdom is much harder than people give it credit for.
And, like any exploratory thinker, I don't think Seth himself would claim he's never wrong. It's all about if you can learn something about the <i>approach</i> to marketing, not memorize a bunch of steps.
Definitely a fan, not a fanatic, but I've heard this point enough that I wanted to state a counter.
I had a friend who applied, it's not something I'd ever want to do. I think Seth is a great motivational speaker and writer, but there are far more people I'd want to give up 6 months with no pay to be mentored by from an entrepreneurial standpoint.
Not to mention, I was pretty turned off from the whole thing the moment I read the internship he was offering. It all seemed a little self-serving (with kool-aid), and I get a little sick of MBA guys knocking MBA programs. Seems like a shallow self-marketing gimmick...
(His blog is on my reader)
Not to mention, I was pretty turned off from the whole thing the moment I read the internship he was offering. It all seemed a little self-serving (with kool-aid), and I get a little sick of MBA guys knocking MBA programs. Seems like a shallow self-marketing gimmick...
(His blog is on my reader)
The actual rejection is buried halfway through. Rejection or acceptance should be in the first sentence, and the tone of how that sentence starts should make it obvious which one it is.
Damn, that's condescending.
If it were delivered in person, I'd expect a lollypop and a pat upon the head after hearing it.
If it were delivered in person, I'd expect a lollypop and a pat upon the head after hearing it.
I applied and got an interview. I sent in my application as a PDF, but I also made this lens which Seth apparently liked:
http://www.squidoo.com/Reading_Optional
http://www.squidoo.com/Reading_Optional
I'm new to this term "lens".
It seems like it's just a fancy word for "how-to" or "neat bit of information / call to take some sort of action".
It seems like it's just a fancy word for "how-to" or "neat bit of information / call to take some sort of action".
Godin's company is Squidoo. It's an odd little web page builder thing. A "Lens" is what he calls a "page". Because if he called it a page, then no one would care. Now almost no one does.
Be warned before you go there, Squidoo is the wikipedia of spam, advertising and self promotion.
lens in this sense means "Do my SEO for me"
you know, I've looked at squidoo a few times in the past, but never managed to figure out just what the heck it was for. I still don't know.
I was waiting to see a link to an ebook you could buy at the end of the letter.
With testimonials, a GIF of a signature, and a paypal button!
Let's face it, Seth has the cult of personality working overtime for him. People will do whatever it takes to get some of the Seth magic to rub off on them. He doesn't need to suck up to anyone and this letter proves that.
The sad thing is that he's only had one hit -- the idea of permission marketing. From there on, everything he has done is vaporous Seth brand building. I once sat in on a social media webinar with Seth and all he talked about was permission marketing. I wasn't impressed. Same old stuff.
The sad thing is that he's only had one hit -- the idea of permission marketing. From there on, everything he has done is vaporous Seth brand building. I once sat in on a social media webinar with Seth and all he talked about was permission marketing. I wasn't impressed. Same old stuff.
This sounds like Seth Godin trying to keep his "Tribe" Intact by not hurting anybody's feelings.
I always thought tribes were more in tune with brutally enforcing a hierarchy through displays of fitness and hostility towards outside people and thoughts.
So apparently by the very act of applying to his program, that fact alone makes me amazing. Not even close to buying it.
I think today I learned a lot more about this character than reading all his books.
I think anyone rejected from his program really dodged a bullet. Can you imagine a daily dose of this guy up close?
I think today I learned a lot more about this character than reading all his books.
I think anyone rejected from his program really dodged a bullet. Can you imagine a daily dose of this guy up close?
He really is starting to lose it. I don't think he practices what he preaches anymore. Yes, he'll answer an email, but ask for more than that and I can guarantee what the answer will be.... Maybe he should just be "Authentic" about it and do a blog post which says: "Look people, I am flattered at all the requests and X, Y and Z's I get. But you probably don't know that it amounts to many thousands of these a week and i just can't be now, what I was then. The good news for you is that my authentic method works.... up to a point... and that space is now open for you to take... Coz I'm just too big to do it now, to be authentic that is.... it was fun while it lasted..."
How about that Seth?
Steve Sammartino - www.startupblog.wordpress.com
How about that Seth?
Steve Sammartino - www.startupblog.wordpress.com
IMHO, Seth is over rated, that is unless you love boring articles and consensus opinion.
Am I the only one who gets the feeling that an "Alternative colostomy" would be more pleasant than an "Alternative MBA program"?
what MBA program?
Seth has made the generous offer of allowing a select few people to work for him. For free. In exchange, you get to be surrounded by His Greatness every day. If you get accepted, don't forget to bring your lunch money and cab fare as well.
While this sounds like a revolutionary idea, if you're willing to work for free, and can sell yourself well (the two basic acceptance criteria for this program), there is a high probably you can weasel yourself into some simialr position a number of different places.
While this sounds like a revolutionary idea, if you're willing to work for free, and can sell yourself well (the two basic acceptance criteria for this program), there is a high probably you can weasel yourself into some simialr position a number of different places.
It is often referred to as an "internship." There is no way this can possibly be comparable to an actual MBA, but I am biased.
Well Seth's specialty is calling things they aren't or making up superfluous words when a simple English one just won't work for him.
He's basing this on one of the basic types of literary rejection letters.
Poor guy can use some Valium.
I got the same damn letter. I would be more interested in seeing your application. Are you putting it up on squidoo?
didn't put it up at squidoo. if interested, I just posted it to http://www.jonesinsight.com/alt_mba.html.
It sounds like he is living in a fantasy land.
not so impressed with this!
Yeah, Seth should issue an apology for being so damn nice. What a jerk.
You are amazing.
I’m stunned.
Bowled over.
Amazed.
And optimistic about our future (and yours).
The applications I received were astonishingly good. Thorough and honest and clear and direct. They were motivating and demonstrated just how much people can do when they put their minds to it. I read every word of every application and I learned a lot.
If I had 60 seats, I still would have had too many people awe-inspiring applying. Unfortunately, I have nowhere near that, and so I had to make difficult, irrational and not particularly fair choices. Alas, I’m going to be unable to work with you in 2009. There are still interviews and such to go through, so I don’t have the final group selected, but I thought the fairest thing to do was let you know as soon as possible.
The good news, and I hope you think it’s good news, is that you don’t need me. As I said before, I have no magic wand, no secret recipe. Your decision to just make it happen, to push forward, to change... that was the hard part.
Go. Do that. Blow them away. I fully expect it will happen.
Thanks for taking the time and thanks for understanding.
Seth
PS I’m going to post on my blog about how stellar each of you are... and I’m linking to a Google listing of applications (all of them, accepted and not). If you don’t want to be seen by others, you should delete your lens (if you made one). But I think you should be extraordinarily proud of what you’ve built and what you’ve done... and you might even get a new gig because of it.