Ask HN: How to find a new job when I'm not good at networking?
56 comments
Fellow introvert here. I don't have as many years in industry under my belt as you, but I have been through several job transitions and am enjoying the job I'm at right now.
Every single one of my jobs came not from networking, but just cold applying to positions. If networking feels inauthentic to you, I would say just to forget about it and work at getting good at your craft. If you can demonstrate you have the skills and a company has a need for that skillset, they will hire and networking skills will be irrelevant.
Also, if you're not having much success at applying for a type of position, it may be that the timing is just not right, e.g. a company has a superabundance of web developers, but what they are really in need of is embedded software developers. In a lot of cases, it's not about you, but about what the company's needs are.
At one point in time, I applied to a company and failed to get in, but later on, I tried again, got the position, and it was a great opportunity. Was I that much better? Not really, just a timing thing.
So don't give up and keep moving forward with practicing your skills and applying. The more you prepare and try, the better the odds of success.
Every single one of my jobs came not from networking, but just cold applying to positions. If networking feels inauthentic to you, I would say just to forget about it and work at getting good at your craft. If you can demonstrate you have the skills and a company has a need for that skillset, they will hire and networking skills will be irrelevant.
Also, if you're not having much success at applying for a type of position, it may be that the timing is just not right, e.g. a company has a superabundance of web developers, but what they are really in need of is embedded software developers. In a lot of cases, it's not about you, but about what the company's needs are.
At one point in time, I applied to a company and failed to get in, but later on, I tried again, got the position, and it was a great opportunity. Was I that much better? Not really, just a timing thing.
So don't give up and keep moving forward with practicing your skills and applying. The more you prepare and try, the better the odds of success.
Reapplying later on (even a year later) is always a good idea, often enough you may be second or third in the running and they might be considering additional hires so the stars may align in your favour.
I know I'll sound elitist but introvert or not this doesn't make any difference, the most important part of your network are the people you've worked with already.
If none of them is pinging you at times to see if you're available, you were probably an unremarkable professional or you have extraordinarily bad luck.
It's not a bad thing to be average or mediocre, it's what most of us are, with a very small percentage of great professionals in a classical gaussian distribution.
But people that impressed their former colleagues have queues of jobs lining for them. And that's where most of your focus should go if you want to have a career.
If none of them is pinging you at times to see if you're available, you were probably an unremarkable professional or you have extraordinarily bad luck.
It's not a bad thing to be average or mediocre, it's what most of us are, with a very small percentage of great professionals in a classical gaussian distribution.
But people that impressed their former colleagues have queues of jobs lining for them. And that's where most of your focus should go if you want to have a career.
When you started with "il sound elitist" I was getting ready to get angry. But as I read the rest of it - I wasnt sure what the elitist part of it is. I actually thought I was the elitist one when I shunned impressing others for a career (and oh boy has that cost me!) only to wonder after decades in a career where the F it all went by with nothing to show for. Really good advice btw. If you want a career sometimes you need to put your ego aside.
Yes yes a career can mean different things for different folks. (specifically) in this context il take it to mean working in a stable job that pays enough and consistently to help you take care of things/people you care about comfortably.
Yes yes a career can mean different things for different folks. (specifically) in this context il take it to mean working in a stable job that pays enough and consistently to help you take care of things/people you care about comfortably.
None of the people that impressed me in my career were actively trying to do so.
They were simply professional and productive, which distinguished from the average colleague I had.
None of them was doing much extra, but during their 8/5 they moved projects ahead consistently and were reliable.
I can't stress how even such basic things are imho rare so obviously every time there were positions open in companies I've worked for I tried to get them in.
Even among those good performers there's still another selection in my eyes, when it comes to soft skills and how they handle stress or managers. A bit of political skills are always handy to have.
I don't consider myself personally above the but I know those people are courted, and not just by me but many other former colleagues.
They were simply professional and productive, which distinguished from the average colleague I had.
None of them was doing much extra, but during their 8/5 they moved projects ahead consistently and were reliable.
I can't stress how even such basic things are imho rare so obviously every time there were positions open in companies I've worked for I tried to get them in.
Even among those good performers there's still another selection in my eyes, when it comes to soft skills and how they handle stress or managers. A bit of political skills are always handy to have.
I don't consider myself personally above the but I know those people are courted, and not just by me but many other former colleagues.
reliability has been the number one trait that always makes me want to work with them again on a project or whatever. don't even care if they were more aggressive or cynical or whatever trait. if they're often (as in always) right about things, I can shrug off everything else.
The tech field is full of introverts (me included). While the severity of the introvert behaviors can vary greatly, things like computer programming attract people like us like a moth to a flame.
Most (normal) people would cringe at the thought of spending 8 hours straight, alone in your office, to fix a bug or write some new code; but we thrive on it.
Still, even introverts need human interaction on occasion. Networking is important, even if you are just interacting with others like yourself (with the same apprehensions).
If you find it extremely uncomfortable to socialize at all; you have to work at it, even if it feels unnatural. Like many things in life, the more you do it, the easier it becomes.
Most (normal) people would cringe at the thought of spending 8 hours straight, alone in your office, to fix a bug or write some new code; but we thrive on it.
Still, even introverts need human interaction on occasion. Networking is important, even if you are just interacting with others like yourself (with the same apprehensions).
If you find it extremely uncomfortable to socialize at all; you have to work at it, even if it feels unnatural. Like many things in life, the more you do it, the easier it becomes.
It's true that networking often plays a significant role in finding a new job. If you find it hard to build new relationships, that's OK, because that skill can be learned.
Most introverts I know don't enjoy being around people all the time, but still build and maintain meaningful relationships with a small number of people close to them.
If you do want to be better at this, but you're finding it difficult, have you considered therapy? A good therapist can help you feel more confident in building relationships, so you don't feel as drained by them, and give you a safe space to learn and practice those skills.
Most introverts I know don't enjoy being around people all the time, but still build and maintain meaningful relationships with a small number of people close to them.
If you do want to be better at this, but you're finding it difficult, have you considered therapy? A good therapist can help you feel more confident in building relationships, so you don't feel as drained by them, and give you a safe space to learn and practice those skills.
You could form relationships with recruiters. You don't need to be close with recruiters, just reliable. I've found that connections with other professionals is better for getting into niche positions, but good recruiters have placed me into excellent positions as well. It's just a slog to weed out crappy shotgun recruiters from quality ones.
Ultimately, though, I ponder about your professional connection problem. You don't need to be super close friends to have people refer you for things. Just pleasant. I see what you say, but part of your career as you advance is managing people's feelings. If people don't walk away feeling good from interactions with you, then I don't think you're doing your job well. That doesn't mean you have to smiley and be fake, but people can't feel like you don't care at all about what they are emotionally invested in whether that be the project or their career or whatever. It's worth considering that you might be lacking a skill for higher levels of work and even if you got those positions you'd hate them because of how much emotional labor is involved.
Ultimately, though, I ponder about your professional connection problem. You don't need to be super close friends to have people refer you for things. Just pleasant. I see what you say, but part of your career as you advance is managing people's feelings. If people don't walk away feeling good from interactions with you, then I don't think you're doing your job well. That doesn't mean you have to smiley and be fake, but people can't feel like you don't care at all about what they are emotionally invested in whether that be the project or their career or whatever. It's worth considering that you might be lacking a skill for higher levels of work and even if you got those positions you'd hate them because of how much emotional labor is involved.
Where does one find good recruiters to work / connect with?
If you aren't already getting regular emails from recruiters on linkedin.. turn on the account settings allowing them to contact you. This is a significant part of LinkedIn's business.
The parent did say "good". Contacts via LinkedIn are almost complete spam.
i found the following settings but i didn't see anything specifically about allowing recruiters to contact me. i do allow anyone to contact me though, so maybe that is included in that case.
Share job alerts
Use your job alerts to signal interest to recruiters working at those companies?
Share resume data with recruitersI'm wondering the same thing, and as an introvert I have not meet many other people in my field.
I'm no longer happy with my current position since they stopped remote work, and I've been looking for other opportunities as a java developer. I've applied to at least 30 positions so far and NONE have responded back....
I'm no longer happy with my current position since they stopped remote work, and I've been looking for other opportunities as a java developer. I've applied to at least 30 positions so far and NONE have responded back....
If you have time, blog or share code. If things work well, you could get audiences, but there is much less socializing. Writing also helps in becoming more articulate when opportunities for conversations arrive.
Change you self talk from "I'm not good at networking" to "I'm not currently good at networking", go read "How to Win Friends and Influence People", then implement a bit of it in your daily life and reap the rewards.
how/where do you network when you live in a remote location?
the main problem is that making new connections takes a long time and consistency meeting people over and over again before you any friendship takes hold.
i now try to network on online events, but that is exhausting and i feel torn between working on my current contract, searching and applying for jobs/projects and joining events. it's like i don't know where to focus because it feels like there is no progress an any of those activities. add taking care of family to that and it soon becomes overwhelming
the main problem is that making new connections takes a long time and consistency meeting people over and over again before you any friendship takes hold.
i now try to network on online events, but that is exhausting and i feel torn between working on my current contract, searching and applying for jobs/projects and joining events. it's like i don't know where to focus because it feels like there is no progress an any of those activities. add taking care of family to that and it soon becomes overwhelming
Try websites (I would say "social media" but that has a negative stigma) where people in your field congregate. You don't have to do it to the point of exhaustion; just dip you feet in the stream once in a while to gauge the temperature. Eventually you'll find someone or something to talk about. Heck, find a channel/board/area/whatever dedicated to just random chat, and start up a conversation about something you're passionate about.
Building a network takes time, and there's no telling when it will pay off. It might be tomorrow, next week, next month, or next year. But at the end of the day, people will keep you on their radar if they sense that you're at least one of the following: reliable, smart, good at communicating. If you manage to get two out of three you're way ahead of most people.
Building a network takes time, and there's no telling when it will pay off. It might be tomorrow, next week, next month, or next year. But at the end of the day, people will keep you on their radar if they sense that you're at least one of the following: reliable, smart, good at communicating. If you manage to get two out of three you're way ahead of most people.
(this post may come across like a rant, but it's not meant to be. rather i am writing down my thought process as i analyse this problem, so it's more of a stream of consciousness while i try to grapple the subject)
you mean like hackernews? i have been active here for years without it leading to any kind of notable connection. i have been active on other sites before that (like slashdot, stackoverflow, linux user groups, programming languages). of all these, linkedin seems the most useful although i have not been actively participating there, because it sends me alerts when someone of my connections is hiring. maybe i should become active there to get noticed. but at least here on HN i feel not many would support that idea.
i also went to tech conferences. even organized some. but all this activity has only led to fleeting connections. nothing lasting. and nothing that led to work offers in the past 15 years. i didn't participate for the sake of finding jobs, but i was left with the impression that if i wanted to find jobs then this would not be the way.
the only time this was working was when i was still a student and i was able to actively participate in a programming language community while working on volunteer projects in that language. but the community was to small, and eventually opportunities dried out. and once i had family i just could not keep up the activity. i don't have time for side projects any more. any programming related activity has to come out of my work time now. but helping others with programming problems does not count as work, so the moment i have a full time job i have to drop out. in other words, the effort i put in in order for it to pay off is more than i can afford.
and i don't have the impression that anyone has kept me on their radar. but likewise neither have i kept anyone i met on my radar. i believe that my HN history can establish that i am at least good at communicating, and maybe reasonably smart (reliability is harder to show i suppose), so i don't think that should be my problem.
and then there is the question of which community to participate in. there are so many to choose from. python, javascript, django, angular, php, laravel, you name it. i don't want to be stuck with one particular tech stack. i want to try new things, learn new frameworks and tools. from the job offers i have seen, i should learn go and react. but how much effort will i have to put in before that will land me a job? it feels like it's going to be more than i can afford without neglecting my other obligations.
in short, i feel torn, because i don't know where i should put the effort. i pick one, and as long as there is no success i keep having the fear that i am doing it wrong. how long do you keep that up before trying something else? it's like the problem of every startup. when do you decide that your startup failed? actually, that's easier to answer. when the startup is not profitable and i have run out of money. so when i am out of a job and i don't find a new one in my network, does that mean my networking efforts have failed and i should try networking elsewhere?
trying to build a network when you need work doesn't seem like a viable strategy. it is something you do on the side, while you have a job, for the future, as a low priority activity. but that is what makes networking so difficult, and why some here feel they are not good at it. it's not because they are bad at communicating, something i expect that book recommendation would be able to help with, but because for a low priority activity the effort is to much, especially for introverts.
you mean like hackernews? i have been active here for years without it leading to any kind of notable connection. i have been active on other sites before that (like slashdot, stackoverflow, linux user groups, programming languages). of all these, linkedin seems the most useful although i have not been actively participating there, because it sends me alerts when someone of my connections is hiring. maybe i should become active there to get noticed. but at least here on HN i feel not many would support that idea.
i also went to tech conferences. even organized some. but all this activity has only led to fleeting connections. nothing lasting. and nothing that led to work offers in the past 15 years. i didn't participate for the sake of finding jobs, but i was left with the impression that if i wanted to find jobs then this would not be the way.
the only time this was working was when i was still a student and i was able to actively participate in a programming language community while working on volunteer projects in that language. but the community was to small, and eventually opportunities dried out. and once i had family i just could not keep up the activity. i don't have time for side projects any more. any programming related activity has to come out of my work time now. but helping others with programming problems does not count as work, so the moment i have a full time job i have to drop out. in other words, the effort i put in in order for it to pay off is more than i can afford.
and i don't have the impression that anyone has kept me on their radar. but likewise neither have i kept anyone i met on my radar. i believe that my HN history can establish that i am at least good at communicating, and maybe reasonably smart (reliability is harder to show i suppose), so i don't think that should be my problem.
and then there is the question of which community to participate in. there are so many to choose from. python, javascript, django, angular, php, laravel, you name it. i don't want to be stuck with one particular tech stack. i want to try new things, learn new frameworks and tools. from the job offers i have seen, i should learn go and react. but how much effort will i have to put in before that will land me a job? it feels like it's going to be more than i can afford without neglecting my other obligations.
in short, i feel torn, because i don't know where i should put the effort. i pick one, and as long as there is no success i keep having the fear that i am doing it wrong. how long do you keep that up before trying something else? it's like the problem of every startup. when do you decide that your startup failed? actually, that's easier to answer. when the startup is not profitable and i have run out of money. so when i am out of a job and i don't find a new one in my network, does that mean my networking efforts have failed and i should try networking elsewhere?
trying to build a network when you need work doesn't seem like a viable strategy. it is something you do on the side, while you have a job, for the future, as a low priority activity. but that is what makes networking so difficult, and why some here feel they are not good at it. it's not because they are bad at communicating, something i expect that book recommendation would be able to help with, but because for a low priority activity the effort is to much, especially for introverts.
> you mean like hackernews? i have been active here for years without it leading to any kind of notable connection.
Do you read the threads about who's hiring, and post on the threads asking for who's looking for work?
> so when i am out of a job and i don't find a new one in my network, does that mean my networking efforts have failed and i should try networking elsewhere?
Do you mean this as hyperbole? In any case, there is no single answer because it depends on many factors. If you think abandoning every bit of your network, even if it has led to few if any connections, is the right solution, then sure, go ahead. But that sounds like an extreme response, and probably not as wise as redoubling your existing efforts.
> trying to build a network when you need work doesn't seem like a viable strategy.
Why not? If you need work, and connections are known to help get work, I'd argue building a network is exactly what you should be doing. This applies whether you're working or not (although if you're not currently working, doesn't that give you more time to network?).
As to whether you have time, or where to focus your efforts, that's a different issue. Because you'll never know where that next connection or job lead may come from, there's no right or wrong answer to how much time you "should" be spending networking or where you should be spending it.
Certainly, LinkedIn is very job-oriented, so that might be a good place to continue to make connections and communicate with them, in whatever way and at whatever frequency works for you. Yes, doing this requires effort, but nobody is saying you should do it to the point where other parts of your life suffer.
At the end of the day, networking, like anything else, should be at least somewhat enjoyable. If you're not comfortable in person, do it online. If you can't find an online forum where you feel comfortable, make your own (although it's pretty clear you're comfortable here on HN since you've stuck around for so long).
If the way you're networking now is not enjoyable, I'd urge you to find a way that is. These days there is no shortage of ways to connect with people in ways that anybody but the most communication-adverse would find acceptable.
Do you read the threads about who's hiring, and post on the threads asking for who's looking for work?
> so when i am out of a job and i don't find a new one in my network, does that mean my networking efforts have failed and i should try networking elsewhere?
Do you mean this as hyperbole? In any case, there is no single answer because it depends on many factors. If you think abandoning every bit of your network, even if it has led to few if any connections, is the right solution, then sure, go ahead. But that sounds like an extreme response, and probably not as wise as redoubling your existing efforts.
> trying to build a network when you need work doesn't seem like a viable strategy.
Why not? If you need work, and connections are known to help get work, I'd argue building a network is exactly what you should be doing. This applies whether you're working or not (although if you're not currently working, doesn't that give you more time to network?).
As to whether you have time, or where to focus your efforts, that's a different issue. Because you'll never know where that next connection or job lead may come from, there's no right or wrong answer to how much time you "should" be spending networking or where you should be spending it.
Certainly, LinkedIn is very job-oriented, so that might be a good place to continue to make connections and communicate with them, in whatever way and at whatever frequency works for you. Yes, doing this requires effort, but nobody is saying you should do it to the point where other parts of your life suffer.
At the end of the day, networking, like anything else, should be at least somewhat enjoyable. If you're not comfortable in person, do it online. If you can't find an online forum where you feel comfortable, make your own (although it's pretty clear you're comfortable here on HN since you've stuck around for so long).
If the way you're networking now is not enjoyable, I'd urge you to find a way that is. These days there is no shortage of ways to connect with people in ways that anybody but the most communication-adverse would find acceptable.
so when i am out of a job and i don't find a new one in my network, does that mean my networking efforts have failed and i should try networking elsewhere?
> abandoning every bit of your network [...] sounds like an extreme response, and probably not as wise as redoubling your existing efforts
i didn't mean abandoning the network i have, but abandoning my current attempts to build a network and trying different ways to build a network instead.
what i am trying to say is that whatever i have been trying to build a network has not lead to any meaningful connections. and what few connections i have been able to make, none have been helpful in finding work. so those connections are either not the right ones, or i am not connected well enough (connections don't know me well enough) or i simply do not have enough of them.
i have no idea how to measure that. how does a healthy network look like? are the 300 people i am connected to on linkedin but never talk to, and most of whom i barely know, enough? do i need to engage them more? or should i connect to more people instead? should i try to connect to different kinds of people? what level of friendship does it take for a connection to be helpful?
i have been doing this for more than two decades, and in that time a single job or client was the result of a referral from people i knew, one came directly from someone i have known years earlier, and a few early on came from being a member in a small community. but since then nothing. every other job was hustle and applying to open positions.
don't you think that after more than a decade of trying without success, i shouldn't question the approach? how long should i try doubling down? another 10 years?
> trying to build a network when you need work doesn't seem like a viable strategy.
Why not? If you need work, and connections are known to help get work, I'd argue building a network is exactly what you should be doing.
because building a connection to someone takes longer than the time i can afford to be out of work. i am not suggesting that i should stop with networking, but that spending more time on networking is not going to make enough of a difference when i need a job right away. i am in the lucky position that i saved enough money to actually be able to afford to be out of work for more than a few months. but even that money will run out if i don't find work eventually.
you'll never know where that next connection or job lead may come from
well if past performance is any indication, then it is not coming from my networking efforts.
connections are known to help get work
but my connections are not getting me any work. something must be wrong with my network or with my efforts at networking. but i can't figure out what that is. can you see why i am confused?
Certainly, LinkedIn is very job-oriented, so that might be a good place
you are in a minority with that opinion. most comments on HN that i have seen over the years suggest that linkedin is useless. of course there may be survivorship bias there. i wager most of those people are not even trying to use linkedin. and neither was i. so that would be one of the things for me to change.
These days there is no shortage of ways to connect with people in ways that anybody but the most communication-adverse would find acceptable.
i'd like to dispute that statement. i can't think of more than half a dozen ways. maybe a dozen, but then half of those are out of my reach.
to be more practical, let's make an actual list. if you can think of any other ways, please add to the list:
in person:
btw: i tried in person networking events when i had the opportunity. after a few years doing that in beijing i felt i was getting somewhere, and then we had to move. likewise in vienna, but there i felt that i was getting somewhere after a few months. but it took a lot of effort. i went out at least 2, sometimes 3 or 4 times a week. very taxing on my family. generally, i don't think more than once or twice a week is advisable if you want to keep your wife happy. if you are alone of course then have at it.
> abandoning every bit of your network [...] sounds like an extreme response, and probably not as wise as redoubling your existing efforts
i didn't mean abandoning the network i have, but abandoning my current attempts to build a network and trying different ways to build a network instead.
what i am trying to say is that whatever i have been trying to build a network has not lead to any meaningful connections. and what few connections i have been able to make, none have been helpful in finding work. so those connections are either not the right ones, or i am not connected well enough (connections don't know me well enough) or i simply do not have enough of them.
i have no idea how to measure that. how does a healthy network look like? are the 300 people i am connected to on linkedin but never talk to, and most of whom i barely know, enough? do i need to engage them more? or should i connect to more people instead? should i try to connect to different kinds of people? what level of friendship does it take for a connection to be helpful?
i have been doing this for more than two decades, and in that time a single job or client was the result of a referral from people i knew, one came directly from someone i have known years earlier, and a few early on came from being a member in a small community. but since then nothing. every other job was hustle and applying to open positions.
don't you think that after more than a decade of trying without success, i shouldn't question the approach? how long should i try doubling down? another 10 years?
> trying to build a network when you need work doesn't seem like a viable strategy.
Why not? If you need work, and connections are known to help get work, I'd argue building a network is exactly what you should be doing.
because building a connection to someone takes longer than the time i can afford to be out of work. i am not suggesting that i should stop with networking, but that spending more time on networking is not going to make enough of a difference when i need a job right away. i am in the lucky position that i saved enough money to actually be able to afford to be out of work for more than a few months. but even that money will run out if i don't find work eventually.
you'll never know where that next connection or job lead may come from
well if past performance is any indication, then it is not coming from my networking efforts.
connections are known to help get work
but my connections are not getting me any work. something must be wrong with my network or with my efforts at networking. but i can't figure out what that is. can you see why i am confused?
Certainly, LinkedIn is very job-oriented, so that might be a good place
you are in a minority with that opinion. most comments on HN that i have seen over the years suggest that linkedin is useless. of course there may be survivorship bias there. i wager most of those people are not even trying to use linkedin. and neither was i. so that would be one of the things for me to change.
These days there is no shortage of ways to connect with people in ways that anybody but the most communication-adverse would find acceptable.
i'd like to dispute that statement. i can't think of more than half a dozen ways. maybe a dozen, but then half of those are out of my reach.
to be more practical, let's make an actual list. if you can think of any other ways, please add to the list:
in person:
1: go to tech and networking events and meetups. (only possible if you live in a big city with an active community).
2: go to conferences. (requires time and money)
3: speak at conferences (takes advanced preparation time as well as money)
4: join online networking events. (there are some, but i feel they are hard to find. most online events are talks/workshops without any opportunity for the audience to connect to each other)
5: give talks at online conferences or participate in podcasts. (takes advanced preparation time)
6: participate in online communities/forums/mailinglists. (seems to work better in small communities. requires effort to help others in order to stand out as knowledgeable and helpful. standing out on HN or stackoverflow is difficult. not sure about linkedin)
7: write a blog (takes a very long time to build up an audience)
btw: i tried in person networking events when i had the opportunity. after a few years doing that in beijing i felt i was getting somewhere, and then we had to move. likewise in vienna, but there i felt that i was getting somewhere after a few months. but it took a lot of effort. i went out at least 2, sometimes 3 or 4 times a week. very taxing on my family. generally, i don't think more than once or twice a week is advisable if you want to keep your wife happy. if you are alone of course then have at it.
You say none of your activities got you a job offer, but did you get anyone else a job offer or did you create/pointed out opportunities for others? Maybe trying to do that helps in finding ways to be on the receiving end of such opportunities.
i think i would pass on such opportunities if i came across any. heck, i even created chat groups to help people share and find jobs (with hundreds of participants) but i can't remember the last time that i was able to pass on an opportunity directly. well, actually, just last week a friend contacted me about a job that didn't fit me, but i can't think of anyone i know that i could pass it on to.
People suck.
Have you thought about a career coach or hitting up a recruiter at a recruiting company? They can 'advertise' and promote you to their clients. Often times they only staff temporary positions (i.e. v-endortrash), but sometimes it is permanent placement.
Have you thought about a career coach or hitting up a recruiter at a recruiting company? They can 'advertise' and promote you to their clients. Often times they only staff temporary positions (i.e. v-endortrash), but sometimes it is permanent placement.
Have you considered personal branding/networking via either social media / blogging?
Making Peace with Personal Branding: https://www.fast.ai/posts/2017-12-18-personal-brand.html
Your blog would detail some of your work experiences you wish to write about, such as tutorials, case studies, etc. I realize it's likely a longer game than classic networking.
Making Peace with Personal Branding: https://www.fast.ai/posts/2017-12-18-personal-brand.html
Your blog would detail some of your work experiences you wish to write about, such as tutorials, case studies, etc. I realize it's likely a longer game than classic networking.
Fellow introvert. Feel your pain.
Connect:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nelsonic
Happy to help.
Connect:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nelsonic
Happy to help.
A related discussion from 2019 that came to mind: To hire neurodiverse workers, one firm got rid of job interviews (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21309024)
> About 80% of my colleagues were hired this way, while a few of us got in by luck.
How do you define that?
How do you define that?
When people discuss "networking" what do they mean?
Posting on linkedin?
Going to events?
Posting on linkedin?
Going to events?
Knowing people in your industry well enough that they will contact you about an open position at their company. Normally that means they either like you enough to want to work with you or respect your abilities enough that they think you can help with the work they’re doing. How you meet them and get to know them is up to you.
[deleted]
"Networking seems to drive career advancement."
I come to this realization too. The world is not a meritocracy like we are taught as children.
In my case, I have a disability that makes networking difficult and feel immoral to me. Frankly, any company spouting DEI and still supporting networking is hypocritical.
I come to this realization too. The world is not a meritocracy like we are taught as children.
In my case, I have a disability that makes networking difficult and feel immoral to me. Frankly, any company spouting DEI and still supporting networking is hypocritical.
Having a moral compass is not a disability, even though modern society likes to make it seem that way.
No, but some types of nuerodivergent people have an overwhelming sense of justice. That would be something related to a disability.
> feel immoral
> any company spouting DEI and still supporting networking is hypocritical
Not to take anything away from your personal situation, but this is a self-defeating mindset to have.
People, i.e. social humans in companies, are WIRED to seek out known quantities.
Networking and having someone vouch for you is not some scheme to subvert some utopian idea of meritocracy, but really an evolutionary social dynamic response.
We pick people like us, we pick people we like, we pick people who can improve the group, we pick people who can do things for the group. (having your own strong network is also something you can bring to the group in the form of more referrals, and potentially new clients etc.) Which is also why alumni networks are a thing.
There's no trick, and networking doesn't need to be sleazy, and it isn't immoral. Be likable, reach out to people, ask them for help, offer to help them.
Ironically, and arguably, the biggest threat to this is LinkedIn which lets people build a huge network that is only puddle deep.
Those 1000 connections on linkedin are worth less than 5 deep connections you've had coffee chats or lunch with in your same city and same industry.
> any company spouting DEI and still supporting networking is hypocritical
Not to take anything away from your personal situation, but this is a self-defeating mindset to have.
People, i.e. social humans in companies, are WIRED to seek out known quantities.
Networking and having someone vouch for you is not some scheme to subvert some utopian idea of meritocracy, but really an evolutionary social dynamic response.
We pick people like us, we pick people we like, we pick people who can improve the group, we pick people who can do things for the group. (having your own strong network is also something you can bring to the group in the form of more referrals, and potentially new clients etc.) Which is also why alumni networks are a thing.
There's no trick, and networking doesn't need to be sleazy, and it isn't immoral. Be likable, reach out to people, ask them for help, offer to help them.
Ironically, and arguably, the biggest threat to this is LinkedIn which lets people build a huge network that is only puddle deep.
Those 1000 connections on linkedin are worth less than 5 deep connections you've had coffee chats or lunch with in your same city and same industry.
"We pick people like us, we pick people we like,"
This is exactly the type of bias that marginalizes people like me.
"There's no trick, and networking doesn't need to be sleazy, and it isn't immoral."
It doesn't need to be, but it overwhelmingly ends up that way. It often completely cuts out anyone from the outgroup or unknown, even if they are deserving candidates. It leads to wasted effort from candidates when the person being picked is essentially a forgone conclusion. I've had friends offer to open a posting for me for a promotion in the company. These sort of backroom deals are wrong.
"but really an evolutionary social dynamic response."
Just because something is evolutionary doesn't make it right. Insider trading is essentially the same thing, but for securities, yet that's illegal.
This is exactly the type of bias that marginalizes people like me.
"There's no trick, and networking doesn't need to be sleazy, and it isn't immoral."
It doesn't need to be, but it overwhelmingly ends up that way. It often completely cuts out anyone from the outgroup or unknown, even if they are deserving candidates. It leads to wasted effort from candidates when the person being picked is essentially a forgone conclusion. I've had friends offer to open a posting for me for a promotion in the company. These sort of backroom deals are wrong.
"but really an evolutionary social dynamic response."
Just because something is evolutionary doesn't make it right. Insider trading is essentially the same thing, but for securities, yet that's illegal.
> Just because something is evolutionary doesn't make it right.
True, but you’re not going to be able change it either via evolution or culture change, so rather than make excuses and complain you might as well try to understand the best you can and figure out path that works for you within an unfair and unaccommodating system.
Back on topic Regarding OP, the book “never eat alone” is a great way to learn this stuff and anyone wanting to improve tactics and mindset for networking should read it.
True, but you’re not going to be able change it either via evolution or culture change, so rather than make excuses and complain you might as well try to understand the best you can and figure out path that works for you within an unfair and unaccommodating system.
Back on topic Regarding OP, the book “never eat alone” is a great way to learn this stuff and anyone wanting to improve tactics and mindset for networking should read it.
I don't know about that. Isn’t the whole point of DEI to undo evolution that results in tribal organization, stereotyping, etc?
DEI is about being inclusive. The very thing you are wanting from this world.
And not sure what exactly you keep implying by using words like similar, tribal organisation, stereotyping etc. But humans form relationships around many things that have nothing to do with gender, race etc. For example sports, hobbies, work etc.
And not sure what exactly you keep implying by using words like similar, tribal organisation, stereotyping etc. But humans form relationships around many things that have nothing to do with gender, race etc. For example sports, hobbies, work etc.
"For example sports, hobbies, work etc."
So you think culture, hobbies, etc, can't form biases?
So you think culture, hobbies, etc, can't form biases?
When you say "disability", what do you mean exactly? Is it a specific disease, or do you just mean "I find networking difficult, and it feels immoral"?
I'm nuerodivergent. Being likeable and similar to hiring managers is not something that most nuerodivergent people are able to do at the same level as most "normal" people.
Maybe become friends with people similar to you in the industry you work in and they can let you know when there are open positions and put in a good word for you? Networking doesn’t mean being friends with HR or hiring managers, it just means getting your foot in the door via an acquaintance since someone saying “I know this person” can put you ahead of other random applicants.
Diagnosed by a doctor?
I'm terribly sorry, but this just sounds like a long word for "I find it hard to be likeable". So do I, but I don't think of it as a disability: it's a part of my character, which to a reasonable degree I consider worth trying to change.
I also notice that your sympathy for yourself is not matched by an equal tolerance for other people. "Just because something is evolutionary doesn't make it right," you say of the fact that other people like people who try to be nice. You then compare it to insider trading. Gosh... seems like the rest of the human race are terrible people!
I'm terribly sorry, but this just sounds like a long word for "I find it hard to be likeable". So do I, but I don't think of it as a disability: it's a part of my character, which to a reasonable degree I consider worth trying to change.
I also notice that your sympathy for yourself is not matched by an equal tolerance for other people. "Just because something is evolutionary doesn't make it right," you say of the fact that other people like people who try to be nice. You then compare it to insider trading. Gosh... seems like the rest of the human race are terrible people!
Yes, diagnosed.
"I also notice that your sympathy for yourself is not matched by an equal tolerance for other people."
Where do you see that? The thing I'm advocating for (removing or reducing networking in the hiring process) will positively effect many more people than myself. It will also positively effect other groups that I'm not a member of (races, ethnicities, cultures, etc).
"You then compare it to insider trading. Gosh... seems like the rest of the human race are terrible people!"
I'm not saying the people are terrible. But perhaps they are ignorant.
Insider trading wasn't illegal until 1909. So do you consider all the people before that terrible? Maybe they didn't know what they were doing was hurting other people. Maybe all they saw were the benefits.
What is insider trading? You're using privileged information to capture value. In this case, using non-public information about a stock (possible gained through your network) to buy or sell the stock early.
What is networking in relation to this? You're using privileged information to capture value. In this case you're getting information not given in posting via an insider. You might hear about a future opening before its ever gers posted. You might go through the interview as a formality even though they already made their choice. The stats I've seen say that 85% of jobs are found through networking. What we end up with are the same types of bad behavior in the job market as we've seen in the past for the stock market. We see constant complaints from people here and elsewhere about fake or evergreen job postings (v. securities fraud/misrepresentation), shady hiring practices or requirements (v. Fiduciary misconduct), overhiring knowing the budget wont support it then just laying off within a year (v. pump and dump), etc. This is a massive disadvantage to people who don't have an insider. This disproportionately affects people in minority groups and those with disabilities. Many of the types of misconduct that are regulated in other markets like the stock market or commerce are not regulated in the job market.
"I also notice that your sympathy for yourself is not matched by an equal tolerance for other people."
Where do you see that? The thing I'm advocating for (removing or reducing networking in the hiring process) will positively effect many more people than myself. It will also positively effect other groups that I'm not a member of (races, ethnicities, cultures, etc).
"You then compare it to insider trading. Gosh... seems like the rest of the human race are terrible people!"
I'm not saying the people are terrible. But perhaps they are ignorant.
Insider trading wasn't illegal until 1909. So do you consider all the people before that terrible? Maybe they didn't know what they were doing was hurting other people. Maybe all they saw were the benefits.
What is insider trading? You're using privileged information to capture value. In this case, using non-public information about a stock (possible gained through your network) to buy or sell the stock early.
What is networking in relation to this? You're using privileged information to capture value. In this case you're getting information not given in posting via an insider. You might hear about a future opening before its ever gers posted. You might go through the interview as a formality even though they already made their choice. The stats I've seen say that 85% of jobs are found through networking. What we end up with are the same types of bad behavior in the job market as we've seen in the past for the stock market. We see constant complaints from people here and elsewhere about fake or evergreen job postings (v. securities fraud/misrepresentation), shady hiring practices or requirements (v. Fiduciary misconduct), overhiring knowing the budget wont support it then just laying off within a year (v. pump and dump), etc. This is a massive disadvantage to people who don't have an insider. This disproportionately affects people in minority groups and those with disabilities. Many of the types of misconduct that are regulated in other markets like the stock market or commerce are not regulated in the job market.
You are hoping to replace the fact that society exists and the economy exists within its context. There is no other way to prevent people from networking to get jobs and promotions. You've also now stretched the concept to include numerous other bad things like overhiring and fake job postings. The stock market is arguably over-regulated as it is, which may be why we now see a large-scale return to private markets; extending this level of regulation to the entire job market is a crazy, unrealistic idea.
"The stock market is arguably over-regulated as it is, which may be why we now see a large-scale return to private markets;"
Lol I don't think there's a single reputable analyst that agrees with your analysis. Private equity has serious ethical issues with the way many outfits operate. It sounds like you don't have a strong understanding of ethics based on your comments. If you want to just play by low regulation or natural law, than I might as well just take your stuff. If they can't enforce it (catch me), then I guess it's right for me to do so.
Lol I don't think there's a single reputable analyst that agrees with your analysis. Private equity has serious ethical issues with the way many outfits operate. It sounds like you don't have a strong understanding of ethics based on your comments. If you want to just play by low regulation or natural law, than I might as well just take your stuff. If they can't enforce it (catch me), then I guess it's right for me to do so.
There are many reputable analysts who agree with my analysis. Here's one: https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/.... Here's another: https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/.... I'm not an expert on this: I just spent one minute on Google Scholar. You could have done the same.
Private equity is nothing to do with public stock markets. That's why it's called private equity. They buy firms that don't trade on stock markets. Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_equity
You think I don't understand ethics, but are you sure you understand finance?
Private equity is nothing to do with public stock markets. That's why it's called private equity. They buy firms that don't trade on stock markets. Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_equity
You think I don't understand ethics, but are you sure you understand finance?
for me the main factor that makes someone likeable is how nice they are to or how much they like me and others. so i see someone display a dislike to others or to me, then i won't like them either.
> spouting DEI and still supporting networking is hypocritical
Networking is simply about building relationships with people.
This is a skill you will need in order to make it through the interview process and make yourself likeable to the hiring manager and the team. To conflate it with DEI which is all about inclusion is pretty low.
Networking is simply about building relationships with people.
This is a skill you will need in order to make it through the interview process and make yourself likeable to the hiring manager and the team. To conflate it with DEI which is all about inclusion is pretty low.
"and make yourself likeable"
"To conflate it with DEI which is all about inclusion is pretty low."
The need to make yourself likeable disadvantages groups that may not be similar to the hiring manager. It definitely provides bias against nuerodivergent people. So no, I'm not conflating DEI and networking. There is an easily identifiable link between the bias inherent in networking and it's impact on DEI.
"To conflate it with DEI which is all about inclusion is pretty low."
The need to make yourself likeable disadvantages groups that may not be similar to the hiring manager. It definitely provides bias against nuerodivergent people. So no, I'm not conflating DEI and networking. There is an easily identifiable link between the bias inherent in networking and it's impact on DEI.
So in your ridiculous world you have to be "similar" to someone to be likeable.
And please provide some evidence of this link between networking and DEI.
And please provide some evidence of this link between networking and DEI.
Reread my comments with an open mind and empathy. It's nice you think my world is ridiculous, but I guess the world is ridiculous for most disabled people.
> building relationships with people
I was told r.e. networking this is basically doing things for people and not expecting anything in return? Have done this often ( e.g. writing/reviewing resumes, finding job posts, sharing mutual connections who are hiring) and have received nothing in return. Not sure if I'm missing anything
I was told r.e. networking this is basically doing things for people and not expecting anything in return? Have done this often ( e.g. writing/reviewing resumes, finding job posts, sharing mutual connections who are hiring) and have received nothing in return. Not sure if I'm missing anything
Doing those kind of things brings the opportunity to communicate with someone you may not have otherwise met. It gets you attention.
You still have to talk to them and form a relationship like any other interaction.
For reasons I don’t understand I’m relatively good at making friends. I certainly have a lot of them. Maybe it’s simply because I am genuinely curious about other people and their interests. (A rather unexpected trait for someone who is quite happy hiding in the proverbial parent’s basement.)
I still have a high miss rate. The only way to make friends is meeting people and talking to them. This doesn’t require being in person. Most of my current friends come from the furry community and many of them I met in chat rooms long before I met them in person.
You still have to talk to them and form a relationship like any other interaction.
For reasons I don’t understand I’m relatively good at making friends. I certainly have a lot of them. Maybe it’s simply because I am genuinely curious about other people and their interests. (A rather unexpected trait for someone who is quite happy hiding in the proverbial parent’s basement.)
I still have a high miss rate. The only way to make friends is meeting people and talking to them. This doesn’t require being in person. Most of my current friends come from the furry community and many of them I met in chat rooms long before I met them in person.
It took me 30 years to realize that, no matter how good I am, networking often determines success. I'm in a career I don't enjoy, unable to move up or change, while others get jobs through connections. About 80% of my colleagues were hired this way, while a few of us got in by luck.
Networking seems to drive career advancement.
I'm naturally a loner and find it hard to feign interest in others' lives. I prefer spending time alone and struggle to genuinely connect with people.
Emotional intimacy drains me, and I dread future interactions, even though I know this is normal.
While I'm okay being alone, I feel that relationships are crucial for progress after a certain point.
I even broke up with my partner because I can't handle constant companionship. It was so draining that I stopped enjoying sexual intimacy.
I'm fine without a partner; I don't want to subject anyone to my solitude. However, I want to change careers, and I know connections are vital.
I'm feeling stuck and unsure how to move forward. It seems the two crucial factor (luck and networking) are outside my influence.