What do I want? (SWE Burnout)
26 comments
Dang, I've for sure been here. Burnout is real and it sucks. So sad to read your story -- sounds like you're deep in that pit right now.
I highly recommend reading Cal Newport's So Good They Can't Ignore You. It helped me climb out of burnout cycles by doing some longer-term career planning and slowing down to figure out my values.
And after I got some wind back in my sails, How to Win Friends and Influence People (great book with awful title) helped me develop the empathy necessary to solve real problems. In my case, I think I got stuck with a lot of shit jobs because I refused to listen to people, and nobody trusted me with real work because I couldn't demonstrate that I understood them (because I really didn't).
Anyway, feel free to email me at [email protected] if you need to vent more. I can also mail you a copy of either book if you're strapped for cash
Take care
I highly recommend reading Cal Newport's So Good They Can't Ignore You. It helped me climb out of burnout cycles by doing some longer-term career planning and slowing down to figure out my values.
And after I got some wind back in my sails, How to Win Friends and Influence People (great book with awful title) helped me develop the empathy necessary to solve real problems. In my case, I think I got stuck with a lot of shit jobs because I refused to listen to people, and nobody trusted me with real work because I couldn't demonstrate that I understood them (because I really didn't).
Anyway, feel free to email me at [email protected] if you need to vent more. I can also mail you a copy of either book if you're strapped for cash
Take care
Thank you for introducing "So Good They Can't Ignore You".
Are you me?
I'm going through a very similar situation.
What I've found that helps:
1. Wellbutrin (I've been depressed my whole life but had such a negative experience on Zoloft as a teenager that I stayed away until recently)
2. I quit working full-time writing shitty webapps and now exclude any company using NextJS, "AI" as a ChatGPT wrapper and Python. Aside from NextJS, it's not specifically the tech but the companies/startups adopting that tech which suck.
3. Downsized my life significantly and moved to some land.
4. Started a non-tech hobby (farming and building) and take on tech side projects I'm actually interested in.
The part time gig sucks because it's nice to have money, but having money at the cost of scrum or product "owners" who generate garbage from ChatGPT and call it a user story was really burning me out.
I've got a few long-term irons in the fire for starting companies, and in the mean time limp by on part time work with ample time to direct toward what I want to do (or chores because even though I didn't leave the US I did move to a place where keeping up with the growth of plants occupies a significant portion of my time). Once my spouse lands a job of some kind we'll be better off financially.
I'm going through a very similar situation.
What I've found that helps:
1. Wellbutrin (I've been depressed my whole life but had such a negative experience on Zoloft as a teenager that I stayed away until recently)
2. I quit working full-time writing shitty webapps and now exclude any company using NextJS, "AI" as a ChatGPT wrapper and Python. Aside from NextJS, it's not specifically the tech but the companies/startups adopting that tech which suck.
3. Downsized my life significantly and moved to some land.
4. Started a non-tech hobby (farming and building) and take on tech side projects I'm actually interested in.
The part time gig sucks because it's nice to have money, but having money at the cost of scrum or product "owners" who generate garbage from ChatGPT and call it a user story was really burning me out.
I've got a few long-term irons in the fire for starting companies, and in the mean time limp by on part time work with ample time to direct toward what I want to do (or chores because even though I didn't leave the US I did move to a place where keeping up with the growth of plants occupies a significant portion of my time). Once my spouse lands a job of some kind we'll be better off financially.
Can confirm. I am you.
I've been at the same company for close to 20 years, and didn't even hop around within the company... just a steady path up. I can still relate to a lot of this. The company used to not really have any job hoppers, people with 10-30 years was the norm, the people with less than 5 were the weird ones. Now, that's flipped, and I see that Game of Thrones stuff playing out and I have no respect for these people and it's hurt my motivation to do anything. We are told to "modernize", by someone who parachutes in from some other company, and will be gone in 3 years. They have no skin in the game. They just make a mess of everything we built over 2 decades, then leave us holding the bag. When you talk about engineers being resistant to change, that's where the resistance comes from. I used to jump in with both feet when something new came along, because I thought those changes were worth it. When it becomes change for the sake of change, and we are building the same stupid thing 4 times on 4 different platforms, because leadership keeps changing and wants to put their own stamp on things... I can't be bothered anymore. They are doing these things because they feel it is in their best interest, to get their next promotion, not because it's in the best interest of the business. All the re-orgs due to all this change also prevents that Seal Team 6-like synergy within the team. Just when a team starts coming together to function, they shuffle us up again and we're back to square 1 trying to build trust in a new team and understand what everyone can do. I came in as a direct hire. There were some good years in there, but the last 5 years or so has felt like a never-ending march up a mountain covered in oil. A direct hire alone won't save you. The company needs to be good, with sane leaders who aren't chasing the latest buzz words they read about in some industry publication.
Many companies fell into this trap. Basically the middle-high management is allowed, indefinitely, to use the company's resources to promote themselves. Then they hop ground in a few years with a glorified post on LinkedIn.
Due to this I found it extremely hard to stay in any company for longer than 2 years. Smaller companies are much better, but they don't survive that long.
Let me know if there is a middle-large company that does not fall into that BS trap. I really want to stay, learn and develop low level programming skills for the rest of my life, preferably in one company. I don't care much about FAANG pay because I bought the property before Covid hype.
Due to this I found it extremely hard to stay in any company for longer than 2 years. Smaller companies are much better, but they don't survive that long.
Let me know if there is a middle-large company that does not fall into that BS trap. I really want to stay, learn and develop low level programming skills for the rest of my life, preferably in one company. I don't care much about FAANG pay because I bought the property before Covid hype.
I want to fight against it and not give in. The idea of hopping to a new job every 2 years sounds like my nightmare. I also believe there is incredible value in having long-term employees. They've seen the success and failure, they know what's ben tried, what the deeper issues are, and they are invested in making sure things actually work, because they will be the ones who have to live with the decisions. I harbor so much animosity for the people who jump into a company, change a bunch of stuff they don't understand, and then leave while patting themselves on the back. I don't think I could live with myself if that were my life.
I've managed to keep my expenses pretty low. I'm hoping I can continue to save for a while, and then get a job at a library or something. Enough to cover ongoing expenses, with my previous savings being enough to have a conformable retirement. I don't like how transactional and self-serving work has become. Finding a place that isn't like that seems to be like winning the lotto, since it is so hard to know going into it... and it only takes 1 seemingly minor leadership change to shift the whole culture.
I've managed to keep my expenses pretty low. I'm hoping I can continue to save for a while, and then get a job at a library or something. Enough to cover ongoing expenses, with my previous savings being enough to have a conformable retirement. I don't like how transactional and self-serving work has become. Finding a place that isn't like that seems to be like winning the lotto, since it is so hard to know going into it... and it only takes 1 seemingly minor leadership change to shift the whole culture.
It's tough to fight against it if the culture is brought down from the C-level -- and usually that's the case. Fighting will always lose unless you are a very senior member, say a senior VP, and even that probably doesn't make any sense to fight a losing war. You gain nothing except frustration and less compensation. But it might as well worth the effort if you are looking forward to retirng in a few years so delaying the rot could be useful.
I'll have to keep hopping until I see something not so bad.
I'll have to keep hopping until I see something not so bad.
Yeah this is part of the problem. If you try to fight anything, you've immediately got a target on your back.
I tried setting boundaries with a CTO who was pressuring me everyday to work on an "optional" side project. I hated working with him because he wanted control over every little detail. On large projects it was easy to just do tickets. But something small, I had to listen to his bs thoughts and criticisms constantly. More so than working.
After I told him I didn't want to do it 100 times I finally gave in and said it was because I didn't want to work with him specifically. HR contacted me the next day and said some of my comments made someone uncomfortable. They couldn't say what, or who.
This happened 6 times over the next couple of weeks. At 3 I stopped talking to anyone, period. Just to test it out. Still I was saying nasty stuff to someone.
Needless to say I was fired without reason and never given a chance to talk about what was happening, because nothing was happening.
I tried setting boundaries with a CTO who was pressuring me everyday to work on an "optional" side project. I hated working with him because he wanted control over every little detail. On large projects it was easy to just do tickets. But something small, I had to listen to his bs thoughts and criticisms constantly. More so than working.
After I told him I didn't want to do it 100 times I finally gave in and said it was because I didn't want to work with him specifically. HR contacted me the next day and said some of my comments made someone uncomfortable. They couldn't say what, or who.
This happened 6 times over the next couple of weeks. At 3 I stopped talking to anyone, period. Just to test it out. Still I was saying nasty stuff to someone.
Needless to say I was fired without reason and never given a chance to talk about what was happening, because nothing was happening.
That was pretty bad, but I'm glad you at least got out. It's PIA to work with such a person. Is that an F500 US company?
At a lot of places the entire "sprint" culture is designed to extract maximum output from the dev team with nothing but short term goals. They know it's non-sustainable and really don't care.
The toxic culture of dev productivity is the de-facto workplace culture. They're happy to replace their burned out workers every 2 years. They don't really understand the impact of training new hires up, just continue to hit those KPI or OKRs.
The toxic culture of dev productivity is the de-facto workplace culture. They're happy to replace their burned out workers every 2 years. They don't really understand the impact of training new hires up, just continue to hit those KPI or OKRs.
See if you can get a job in enterprise world. While result might vary, as developers, you are fairly removed from the politics. As long as you fall in line, you get a lot of freedom. If you are good, and with a little luck, you get to join really good teams, and you'll get better projects as time goes on.
That being said, if you want to be in the Special Forces, you better be really really really good. I don't mean just technology, but handling product managers, managements, etc..
That being said, if you want to be in the Special Forces, you better be really really really good. I don't mean just technology, but handling product managers, managements, etc..
how old are you?
with time most of these concerns will disappear. Try to regain back your passion and aim at companies that work on problems that you find cool. It's ok if you start out at a lower salary.
with time most of these concerns will disappear. Try to regain back your passion and aim at companies that work on problems that you find cool. It's ok if you start out at a lower salary.
True, but only to be replaced with other concerns, most likely.
Not really. The more I age, the fewer concerns I have.
Very relatable. Most of the times I got burned out was because I got "stuck" in the same project or company for too long. It's easy to become complacent especially if you're at a larger company and earning good money.
Some suggestions: Opt for smaller private companies, find a hobby that isn't sitting in front of a screen, and optimize your job search around the things that are important to you.
Some suggestions: Opt for smaller private companies, find a hobby that isn't sitting in front of a screen, and optimize your job search around the things that are important to you.
The comments make me feel disheartened to be studying computer science hoping to get into the industry.
Seemed like 6 years or so ago people made it sound like this was the best industry to get into. Recruiters hitting people up left and right, six figure salaries, work from home, sometimes interesting work instead of CRUD and React.
Now I wonder if I’m making a mistake and should be going after a trade but I enjoy technology and writing code and don’t want to do physical labor.
Seemed like 6 years or so ago people made it sound like this was the best industry to get into. Recruiters hitting people up left and right, six figure salaries, work from home, sometimes interesting work instead of CRUD and React.
Now I wonder if I’m making a mistake and should be going after a trade but I enjoy technology and writing code and don’t want to do physical labor.
If you enjoy it like I do, you're never going to stop yourself anyway. If this is the culture now, then it becomes, "yup, this is my a* unstable career, but I love the work."
Quit, take rest, travel, get interested in something, make it better.
> instead of allowing me to talk about my experience he wanted to ask why I've done so many contracts
> People who quit every 1-2 years aren't called job hoppers, but contractors are the ones that have to answer to the industries retention problem
I’d be careful about extrapolating industry wide attitudes from a single comment from one recruiter.
> People who quit every 1-2 years aren't called job hoppers, but contractors are the ones that have to answer to the industries retention problem
I’d be careful about extrapolating industry wide attitudes from a single comment from one recruiter.
I work 100% remotely, can set my own hours, no politics, almost no meetings. It is a dream! I can work and prioritize my free time. I know there are not many jobs au there like this but they exist.
This all sounds normal. There is always too much bureaucracy and politics in any job. It's how humans work.
What's your life outside of work like?
What's your life outside of work like?
Become big swinger CTO
Mostly joking here tho, at C level its worse then you need to battle the COO and CEO and CPO and need to be very political
I am mostly fed up too, thinking of changing career and doing something physical like building yachts or something with CO2 capture/methane, slowly starting preparations and getting equipment/facilities but it will be a side hobby, if I see it taking off then I am out :)
NOTE1: physical because i want laws of nature to dictate what is possible not someone who read a blog post on medium
NOTE2: travel helps, I recommend africa :)
I am mostly fed up too, thinking of changing career and doing something physical like building yachts or something with CO2 capture/methane, slowly starting preparations and getting equipment/facilities but it will be a side hobby, if I see it taking off then I am out :)
NOTE1: physical because i want laws of nature to dictate what is possible not someone who read a blog post on medium
NOTE2: travel helps, I recommend africa :)
Right, the very last thing I want is to be around "leadership." Instead of 80% of my day being politics, 150% of my day becomes politics. And let's add in the bonus of having to constantly listen to veritable losers insult employees all day, and suddenly have to know who's cheating on their spouse.
It's just more crap you have to protect and support in order to protect and support yourself.
I think people who have been in offices their entire lives and have never done physical labor may have psychological damage. This is basically how "Karens" are born. There's usually a better shot that veterans, people who grew up on a farm, or came from some rough jobs are better to work with.
First of all, you can talk to them like human beings, rather than having to put on a customer service mask in order to avoid getting a target on your back.
They also know the value of work, and that stuff gets done from work. Not everyone knows this. Some people think talking gets work done. Just schedule another meeting. Let's do 3/day until it gets done.
This isn't me, and it never will be.
It's just more crap you have to protect and support in order to protect and support yourself.
I think people who have been in offices their entire lives and have never done physical labor may have psychological damage. This is basically how "Karens" are born. There's usually a better shot that veterans, people who grew up on a farm, or came from some rough jobs are better to work with.
First of all, you can talk to them like human beings, rather than having to put on a customer service mask in order to avoid getting a target on your back.
They also know the value of work, and that stuff gets done from work. Not everyone knows this. Some people think talking gets work done. Just schedule another meeting. Let's do 3/day until it gets done.
This isn't me, and it never will be.
I'm really tired of SWE jobs for the typical reasons. Office politics, too much bureaucracy to do my job.
I talked to a recruiter today who called me about a 6 month contract, and instead of allowing me to talk about my experience he wanted to ask why I've done so many contracts. It's so hypocritical. People who quit every 1-2 years aren't called job hoppers, but contractors are the ones that have to answer to the industries retention problem. But the reason contracts are so common is because there are so many job hoppers. And because there are so many job hoppers, there's more contract than full time. I put no blame on the engineers btw, we're in this heap together.
I have a second career. I have a class A CDL, but there are more physical reasons I don't do these jobs anymore.
I've been driving with Walmart Spark and really enjoy it. It pays surprisingly well (for what it is), there are 0 politics, and I don't have to ask permission to run an errand.
But I'm trying to figure out what I want to do with SWE. I love programming, I am often complimented on my creative problem solving. But that's never what the job is about.
You see all these LinkedIn posts about how important soft skills are. Which is fine, but it seems like the pendulum swung too far in that direction. Instead of being 50/50, it feels rare to find engineers who have been anywhere longer than 2 years who actually care about their job. Because it's only the people who focus on playing Game of Thrones that survive in the industry with the worst retention rate in the country. Think about that CTO who loves to curse out employees and talk down on everyone. If you haven't experienced this, yes, I've seen this often. It's at it's worst in "leadership" meetings. But the word leadership here is a joke.
My current decision is to still apply but reject all contracts and contract to hires. Remote only. I feel like this puts me in a position of not being able to find something for a very, very long time. Because once you've done a couple contracts, the only thing you get calls for are contracts.
So what would focusing on direct hire do? Get rid of the politics? Absolutely not. But it's more to find serious offers only. As in, I'm not coming back to this career until I know this won't destroy me. Because that's what it's doing. My mood and health drop significantly when I'm pulled in to rescue a failing project or move a team from technology A to technology B when the engineers clearly have no interest in it. Instead it's some clown that decided they want to "modernize," whatever that means according to the latest Gartner trend.
I want to do my job and work with people who want to do their job. I've seen signs of this in a couple of very talented teams. We get rolling on something, start operating with little to no communication and max efficiency like Seal Team 6 (talk about the need for hard skills over soft skills) and then big swinger CTO comes in, decides he wants some action, destroys a significant amount of work, doesn't test, and tells everyone to clean up after him.
Or an uncontrolled client ends up with direct access to every engineers ear piece and starts barking orders in the middle of the operation. Which leads to the slow destruction of the product, productivity coming to a neat halt, and the inevitable mass exodus when everyone decides their 1-2 years is up and it's time for the contractors to start rotating through.
What a sick joke this industry is. So I'm thinking about what I want, I have no clue. I'd like to find a few freelance clients, and do just enough that I don't have to hire employees and do this to anyone else. But it's hard to get started. Again, this doesn't get rid of politics, it's more about finding an environment I'm not just a plastic cog in an iron machine, a temporary piece meant to be thrown out daily.
Just, someone tell me how they can relate to all this