The Goths(the-hinternet.com)
the-hinternet.com
The Goths
https://www.the-hinternet.com/p/the-goths
27 comments
There is an excellent Goth festival in Germany, I'm visiting every year since about 2012. https://www.wave-gotik-treffen.de/english/
Ah I didn't expect to see Wave Gotik Treffen mentioned on HN, I only went one year but keep a very fond memory of it :)
I went once and it was very fun. It's about time I tried to arrange a group to go again.
I'm always open to meeting new people with different backgrounds, so if you do go we could get a beer together or something :)
> Because Gothic is ancestral to what would become Old High German
That's just wrong. It was connected, but a dead offshoot; a vestigial limb.
That's just wrong. It was connected, but a dead offshoot; a vestigial limb.
You might also find this interesting: a post I wrote on the topic last year:
From Gothic Invaders to Mall Goths. How an ancient Germanic tribe gave its name to a modern subculture.
https://onthearts.com/p/from-gothic-invaders-to-mall-goths
From Gothic Invaders to Mall Goths. How an ancient Germanic tribe gave its name to a modern subculture.
https://onthearts.com/p/from-gothic-invaders-to-mall-goths
That's a long arc with a barely addressed tail end.
I read somewhere within the past few months an entertaining take on how Goth culture of Bauhaus and the 80s has little to do with Hot Topic mall rat goth of the 90's and even less with recent naughties Goths of Tik-Tok .. less and less substance, more and more appearence.
In the Venn diagram of Goth|not-Goth there's more than a few lucky trifecta's, eg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpCyNQ80JoE
I read somewhere within the past few months an entertaining take on how Goth culture of Bauhaus and the 80s has little to do with Hot Topic mall rat goth of the 90's and even less with recent naughties Goths of Tik-Tok .. less and less substance, more and more appearence.
In the Venn diagram of Goth|not-Goth there's more than a few lucky trifecta's, eg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpCyNQ80JoE
So what. In order to be a truly authentic goth you'd need to sack the Vatican.
Naughties 2000-2009?
I'm being slack .. post 2000, the years with more noughts than the 1960|70|80|90s
Strictly speaking, you'd be correct.
Strictly speaking, you'd be correct.
Eh it’s a big topic and the post was already getting too long. You are right that mall goths are less interested in the “ethos” of the previous subculture and more interested in the surface appearance, but I think that probably applies to every subculture of modern times.
Was there a previous wave of old-school furries of which I'm unaware?
(unfortunately, just about the time it becomes much easier to tell a shaggy dog story that ends with the phrase "don't you hurry with the furry with the syringe on top", it becomes much harder to expect anyone to understand the spoonerism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIG_GVE-KiE )
EDIT: well, yes, of course: Disney, Avery, Warner, etc. animators. but other than them, [and other than Ovid?] have there ever been any old-school furries?
(unfortunately, just about the time it becomes much easier to tell a shaggy dog story that ends with the phrase "don't you hurry with the furry with the syringe on top", it becomes much harder to expect anyone to understand the spoonerism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIG_GVE-KiE )
EDIT: well, yes, of course: Disney, Avery, Warner, etc. animators. but other than them, [and other than Ovid?] have there ever been any old-school furries?
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What is “substance”? Since Walpole built a fake gothic caste, it have always been about appearance.
Fake? !! If you kick it, does not your toe swell? *
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_stone
To address your point fairly, the Goths of the 80s had their music and their appearance whereas the Goths of Tik-Tok have their music (that music of the 80s) and mostly their appearance ...
ergo more of the same with less and less that's original.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_stone
To address your point fairly, the Goths of the 80s had their music and their appearance whereas the Goths of Tik-Tok have their music (that music of the 80s) and mostly their appearance ...
ergo more of the same with less and less that's original.
I don't recall mall rat Goths having combine harvesters (except it looks more like a sprayer to me?), so that's something the Goths of Tik-Tok have going for them, which is nice.
They say fashion goes in cycles. That cycle is ~ 20 years to start and ~ 30!years to complete, the approximate time it takes for a generation of teenagers to raid their parents old shit. Which just so happen to hit the second hand market around the same time.
1984 -> 2004 -> 2024. Emo and goth cycles.
1964 -> 1984 -> 2004 -> 2024. First, second, third, and… fourth? waves of ska.
1984 -> 2004 -> 2024. Emo and goth cycles.
1964 -> 1984 -> 2004 -> 2024. First, second, third, and… fourth? waves of ska.
If everything is provided digitally as a service, there won't be old shit lying around to raid, and it won't be sold second hand.
That’s one thing I came away with from studying this topic - classicism vs. the gothic (and variants of them like order vs. chaos, minimal vs. maximal, etc.) seem to alternate over and over throughout time.
Doesn’t really connect the dots. For example suggest the Gothic disappers beween Victorianism and The Doors, completely missing the horror movies which was a major influence on the aesthetic.
I didn’t suggest that the Gothic disappeared between the Victorians and The Doors:
While the Gothic didn’t disappear entirely after the Victorian Era, it was largely pushed aside by Modernism and related movements for most of the early 20th century.
It was only by the 1960s that the Gothic ideal began to make a resurgence – this time via music.
This is pretty standard history. Modernism dominated most art forms at the time.
But yes, films were an influence as well. I couldn’t include every influence on the genre as the post would be novel length. The ending part is a bit condensed as a result as I wasn’t trying to explain the intricacies of modern goth culture, just show how the word traveled through time. It’s been awhile since I wrote the post but IIRC the films didn’t play a direct role in transferring the use of the word gothic itself, as they were primarily referred to as horror films.
While the Gothic didn’t disappear entirely after the Victorian Era, it was largely pushed aside by Modernism and related movements for most of the early 20th century.
It was only by the 1960s that the Gothic ideal began to make a resurgence – this time via music.
This is pretty standard history. Modernism dominated most art forms at the time.
But yes, films were an influence as well. I couldn’t include every influence on the genre as the post would be novel length. The ending part is a bit condensed as a result as I wasn’t trying to explain the intricacies of modern goth culture, just show how the word traveled through time. It’s been awhile since I wrote the post but IIRC the films didn’t play a direct role in transferring the use of the word gothic itself, as they were primarily referred to as horror films.
> This is pretty standard history. Modernism dominated most art forms at the time.
Not sure what “standard history” you are relying on, but gothic horror was a major influence on movies (and other popular media like comics). Modernism is a somewat nebolous term, but German expressionism seem to be generally categorized as modernism, even when the movies are clearly gothic horror (eg Nosferatu is heavily based on Dracula, they just couldn’t secure the rights to the novel, so changed the name).
Not sure what “standard history” you are relying on, but gothic horror was a major influence on movies (and other popular media like comics). Modernism is a somewat nebolous term, but German expressionism seem to be generally categorized as modernism, even when the movies are clearly gothic horror (eg Nosferatu is heavily based on Dracula, they just couldn’t secure the rights to the novel, so changed the name).
Sure, modernism could include German Expressionism, but I had in mind Art Deco, Bauhaus and Modernist architecture, along with visual art movements like Dada, De Stiji, Cubism, etc. - the things that are typically referred to by the word modernist. The qualities these things have in common tend to be distinctly different from the qualities that the Gothic has usually had.
According to historian Roger Griffin, modernism can be defined as a broad cultural, social, or political initiative sustained by the ethos of "the temporality of the new". Griffin believed that modernism aspired to restore a "sense of sublime order and purpose to the contemporary world, thereby counteracting the (perceived) erosion of an overarching 'nomos', or 'sacred canopy', under the fragmenting and secularizing impact of modernity".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism
This focus on the new and future is definitely not something Gothic does, which is traditionally very focused on the past.
In architecture, for example, the Gothic lost most of its influence:
New architectural movements, sometimes related, as in the Arts and Crafts movement, and sometimes in outright opposition, such as Modernism, gained ground, and by the 1930s the architecture of the Victorian era was generally condemned or ignored.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_Revival_architecture
And again, the purpose of the article was to trace the term gothic through history, not to explain the influence of the Gothic in toto. These films may have been influential, but they were based on already written Gothic works, and they weren't dominant in the way Gothic architecture or literature were in the Victorian era. Gothic in the 20th century was more of an influence on other art movements (including German Expressionism), not a fully-fledged art movement itself, as it had been in the past.
Overall I agree that a line about the films would have been good to add, but I don't think it was necessarily essential to tracing the word gothic through time. The term was applied to music because of the location "in the gloomy vaulted wine cellar of the Delmonico hotel, not because of a reference to the films.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_rock#Characteristics
I'm not sure why this single point "doesn’t really connect the dots" for you, considering that the rest of the post covers dozens of other significant influences over two millenia.
According to historian Roger Griffin, modernism can be defined as a broad cultural, social, or political initiative sustained by the ethos of "the temporality of the new". Griffin believed that modernism aspired to restore a "sense of sublime order and purpose to the contemporary world, thereby counteracting the (perceived) erosion of an overarching 'nomos', or 'sacred canopy', under the fragmenting and secularizing impact of modernity".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism
This focus on the new and future is definitely not something Gothic does, which is traditionally very focused on the past.
In architecture, for example, the Gothic lost most of its influence:
New architectural movements, sometimes related, as in the Arts and Crafts movement, and sometimes in outright opposition, such as Modernism, gained ground, and by the 1930s the architecture of the Victorian era was generally condemned or ignored.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_Revival_architecture
And again, the purpose of the article was to trace the term gothic through history, not to explain the influence of the Gothic in toto. These films may have been influential, but they were based on already written Gothic works, and they weren't dominant in the way Gothic architecture or literature were in the Victorian era. Gothic in the 20th century was more of an influence on other art movements (including German Expressionism), not a fully-fledged art movement itself, as it had been in the past.
Overall I agree that a line about the films would have been good to add, but I don't think it was necessarily essential to tracing the word gothic through time. The term was applied to music because of the location "in the gloomy vaulted wine cellar of the Delmonico hotel, not because of a reference to the films.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_rock#Characteristics
I'm not sure why this single point "doesn’t really connect the dots" for you, considering that the rest of the post covers dozens of other significant influences over two millenia.
My point is just that “goth” is heavily inspired by horror movies.
Saying the genre was “largely pushed aside” is absurd. Everyone knows how Frankensteins monster looks. How many cultural expression have this kind of impact?
If you are relying on books which does not recognize the impact of horror movies on popular culture, you should find better books.
Saying the genre was “largely pushed aside” is absurd. Everyone knows how Frankensteins monster looks. How many cultural expression have this kind of impact?
If you are relying on books which does not recognize the impact of horror movies on popular culture, you should find better books.
My impression is that High German evolved fairly distinctly in the Bavarian and Austrian heartlands during the age of the Holy Roman Empire, while Gothic populations were assimilated by Slavic, Bulgarian, and Romanian peoples and were eventually absorbed until the Gothic language went extinct.