How We Found Bin Laden: The Basics of Foreign Signals Intelligence(directory.libsyn.com)
directory.libsyn.com
How We Found Bin Laden: The Basics of Foreign Signals Intelligence
https://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/id/32884982
88 comments
> Unsaid is of course that the USA accused, found guilty, and executed someone without trial, where evidence is shown of their guilt. Sure on balance I think Bin Laden is responsible for 9/11, but I think the source for this belief is the US government.
The United States declared war on Al-Qaeda, and killed it's leader in response to an attack on 9/11 that leader claimed credit for. Domestic courts don't factor in here. Any country is lawfully allowed to kill enemy combatants or military leadership in a war.
The United States declared war on Al-Qaeda, and killed it's leader in response to an attack on 9/11 that leader claimed credit for. Domestic courts don't factor in here. Any country is lawfully allowed to kill enemy combatants or military leadership in a war.
So if someone killed or funded a bombing in the UK, the UK would be permitted to send a secret group to the US to execute them without a trial? (Just confirming your position here that executing people who fund terrorism without a trial - the thing that proves they were responsible, and recall a lot of Americans funded the IRA)
Seems like you've saved me listening to a bunch of garbage. Thank you, kindly!
> Unsaid is of course that the USA accused, found guilty, and executed someone without trial
Wasn't this a military operation? He was killed in a raid on the compound.
Wasn't this a military operation? He was killed in a raid on the compound.
Wild that the NSA has a podcast. Part of me always wanted to work for them, and I still dream of cyber warfare, but the allure of big tech money and the Virginia location always pushed me away. Maybe some day.
Same dream here - they work very interesting problems at very interesting scale, but I can see 3-4x the comp while working from anywhere? Not even a chance. I do sometimes fantasize about making a career shift when the cash comp isn't that important to me and the kids are out of the house, but as of now I value afternoon coffee breaks with my kids just too darn much.
I wonder why they don’t pay more, it’s not like the government is shy about spending money on defence.
The government isn't shy about spending on defense, it is shy about spending on people. GS and GG pay scales aren't that great when compared to industry positions. Consider that GS-13 is often the max for SMEs in many engineering disciplines across the fed until you get into PhD territory (to stay technical, management roles more easily go up to GS-14/15). GS-14/15 if you're in cyber and somewhere like the NSA, maybe. And while that's better than GS-13, you're talking about capping at around $200k or a bit better in high cost of living areas with skills and clearances that could make you much more in industry.
probably an element to it of not attracting the wrong people, they recruit largely fresh out of college and I think the expectation is that people stay, akin to a career in civil service.
If you had people cycling through one of the most critical branches of US intelligence at startup pace primarily motivated by money that probably creates some issues. Because they probably care where these people wander off to when they leave the agency
If you had people cycling through one of the most critical branches of US intelligence at startup pace primarily motivated by money that probably creates some issues. Because they probably care where these people wander off to when they leave the agency
"The geeks who man the NSA don’t look much like Julian Assange, because they have college degrees, shorter haircuts, better health insurance and far fewer stamps in their passports." -- Bruce Sterling
They’re not, but they are shy about defying their own regulations around pay scales. The real money in defense is in private contracting.
This is accurate. Imagine if NSA paid FAANG people FAANG salaries how different the world might be.
The NSA does pay FAANG people FAANG salaries. It's just through private contractors, many of which you've never heard of.
Many of which you’ve never heard of.
Have you? Is this just public information I didn’t see? Or are starting a conversation with an impossible premise?
I also wouldn’t make assumptions.
Have you? Is this just public information I didn’t see? Or are starting a conversation with an impossible premise?
I also wouldn’t make assumptions.
That's the "royal you", not you individually.
If you go looking around on linkedin or crunchbase, you'll find numerous 10-50 employee defense contractors. Having known a few individuals employed this way, I would rank them as smart, capable, highly technical and easily capable of working at FAANG. They're getting comparable compensation/benefits with far less stress, and probably work on more interesting problems than the average Googler.
If you go looking around on linkedin or crunchbase, you'll find numerous 10-50 employee defense contractors. Having known a few individuals employed this way, I would rank them as smart, capable, highly technical and easily capable of working at FAANG. They're getting comparable compensation/benefits with far less stress, and probably work on more interesting problems than the average Googler.
Some of L3's subsidiaries definitely recruit from HN
Maryland.
To expand on this, NSA is located on Ft. George Mead, in the state of Maryland. I have no doubt (as in, this is true) they have locations all over the world.
Oahu, Hawaii is another notable location.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii_Cryptologic_Center
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii_Cryptologic_Center
Just make sure not to fly to Hong Kong from there.
avazhi(2)
I heard that the breakthrough in finding Bin Laden came from a Pakistani doctor who just walked in and told them where to look. I haven't seen any further details, so I wonder if it's being played down or was a false rumor to begin with.
Not quite. They identified the city and the house by tracking bin Laden's courier. After that, they tried to get dna samples by sending in a doctor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ahmed_al-Kuwaiti
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ahmed_al-Kuwaiti
That's the official story. According to reporting by Seymour Hersh and others, what actually happened was:
- Pakistan's ISI was keeping bin Laden as a "guest" at the compound after having captured him.
- A senior ISI official betrayed this fact to the US, in exchange for reward money, American residency, and a cushy CIA job.
- The US brought this up with other ISI officials, who confirmed it and used an ISI emplaced doctor to provide the DNA evidence requested by the US.
- The US negotiated with the ISI on the terms of the raid; the ISI compound guards were ordered to withdraw when the Americans arrived.
https://web.archive.org/web/20240214041103/https://www.lrb.c...
- Pakistan's ISI was keeping bin Laden as a "guest" at the compound after having captured him.
- A senior ISI official betrayed this fact to the US, in exchange for reward money, American residency, and a cushy CIA job.
- The US brought this up with other ISI officials, who confirmed it and used an ISI emplaced doctor to provide the DNA evidence requested by the US.
- The US negotiated with the ISI on the terms of the raid; the ISI compound guards were ordered to withdraw when the Americans arrived.
https://web.archive.org/web/20240214041103/https://www.lrb.c...
I wonder if this helps NSA in their recruiting process - there might be a bunch of disinterested, bored FAANG folks who could 10x their impact by serving their country instead.
Adding to the GDP is probably better in the long run but at this current moment where the tech world is, I think adding to the counterintelligence world has a better impact.
Adding to the GDP is probably better in the long run but at this current moment where the tech world is, I think adding to the counterintelligence world has a better impact.
Thanks for this likable podcast. It makes me feel a helluva lot more viable to exist when the NSA/other government agencies make it such a livable country. -- DJ
I was disappointed that we never got an apology, or a plaque or wall or whatever they give out for heroes. Because all the foreign aid workers that have been killed due the CIA operation to pinpoint bin Laden via his kids DNA, definitely deserve one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_fake_vaccination_campaign_...
https://www.csis.org/blogs/smart-global-health/fake-cia-vacc...
> Terrorists began murdering polio vaccine workers, mostly women volunteers, as the Taliban banned immunizations in the areas under its control.
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/lasting-fallout-fake-vaccinati...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_fake_vaccination_campaign_...
https://www.csis.org/blogs/smart-global-health/fake-cia-vacc...
> Terrorists began murdering polio vaccine workers, mostly women volunteers, as the Taliban banned immunizations in the areas under its control.
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/lasting-fallout-fake-vaccinati...
Assuming you're serious, why would the CIA apologise to foreign aid workers? Maybe you can petition Médecins Sans Frontières to make a plaque, but the US security services are mandated to deal with pretty discrete and clear issues. Their remit was to find Osama. Random foreign aid workers (particularly non US citizens) are - vis-a-vis the CIA/NSA - justifiable collateral in these sorts of operations. That's just how it is, mate.
And yet
> I wanted to inform you that the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) directed in August 2013 that the agency make no operational use of vaccination programs, which includes vaccination workers. Similarly, the Agency will not seek to obtain or exploit DNA or other genetic material acquired through such programs. This CIA policy applies worldwide and to U.S. and non-U.S. persons alike.
The CIA themselves recognizes such an approach as being bad overall.
> I wanted to inform you that the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) directed in August 2013 that the agency make no operational use of vaccination programs, which includes vaccination workers. Similarly, the Agency will not seek to obtain or exploit DNA or other genetic material acquired through such programs. This CIA policy applies worldwide and to U.S. and non-U.S. persons alike.
The CIA themselves recognizes such an approach as being bad overall.
What's your point? That doesn't mean they owe anybody an apology. There have been plenty of CIA ops that have failed or resulted in blowback that I'm sure the CIA regretted ex post - that doesn't mean they wouldn't have tried them again, or that they weren't worth trying.
Also actual lol if you take anything the CIA says as being prima facie true, especially things relating to what the CIA will or will not do in the future operationally.
Also actual lol if you take anything the CIA says as being prima facie true, especially things relating to what the CIA will or will not do in the future operationally.
> Learn from a counterterrorism expert who was in the room when the word came in that Osama bin Laden was Killed In Action.
There’s a very famous photo of Obama, Biden, the Joint Chiefs, and National Security advisors in the White House Situation Room watching the raid unfold in real-time…but sure, I guess it’ll be pretty neat also to get the names of the folks working on the other side of town who got a phone call from someone on the staffs for one of the people in that photo.
There’s a very famous photo of Obama, Biden, the Joint Chiefs, and National Security advisors in the White House Situation Room watching the raid unfold in real-time…but sure, I guess it’ll be pretty neat also to get the names of the folks working on the other side of town who got a phone call from someone on the staffs for one of the people in that photo.
I'm guessing those people all declined the podcast invite.
> There’s a very famous photo of Obama, Biden, the Joint Chiefs, and National Security advisors in the White House Situation Room watching the raid unfold in real-time…
How convenient there was a photographer in the fucking situation room! Such a coincidence.
How convenient there was a photographer in the fucking situation room! Such a coincidence.
First, there's an official position: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Official_White_House_Pho...
Secondly, why would it be a coincidence? You don't think... the people in the situation room knew something, perhaps a situation, was happening at the time?
Otherwise, why would they _be_ in the situation room? There's usually a situation going on.
Secondly, why would it be a coincidence? You don't think... the people in the situation room knew something, perhaps a situation, was happening at the time?
Otherwise, why would they _be_ in the situation room? There's usually a situation going on.
Apologies for my ignorance. I didn’t think photographers were allowed into that room most of the time.
The WH photographer is always around taking pictures of whatever the president is doing; it's literally their fulltime job.
Didn’t we find bin Laden by catastrophically undermining vaccination programs in Pakistan?
This is all bs. It was most likely due to an ISI walk-in. https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/05/13/what-pakistan-knew-abou...
> How We Found Bin Laden: The Basics of Foreign Signals Intelligence
Which one of them ? /s
Which one of them ? /s
Bin Laden - what a non-sense. We buried him at sea for religious reasons even though that goes against Muslim beliefs.
If you still believe that Sadam Hussan had weapons of mass destruction and ties to Al Queda then I have a domino theory Ukraine war to sell you.
...Remember kids, jet fuel and office furniture melt steel beams.
If you still believe that Sadam Hussan had weapons of mass destruction and ties to Al Queda then I have a domino theory Ukraine war to sell you.
...Remember kids, jet fuel and office furniture melt steel beams.
From the NSA, this seems like historical revisionism as it contradicts the bin Laden story widely accepted.
The short version is: 9/11 happens. The Taliban offer to hand over bin Laden and George W. Bush refuses [1]. Bin Laden escapes into Pakistan. We then start a completely pointless war in Iraq against someone who played no part in 9/11. There was a letter from many conservative leaders prior to 9//1 calling for the invasion of Iraq [2]. Interestingly, then Senator Biden predicted in 1998 he'd vote to topple Saddam Hussein in 1998 [3].
There is no partisan divide on US foreign policy.
Anyway, bin Laden builds a massive compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, about a half mile from the ISI (Pakistan's intelligence agency). Like, it stood out like a sore thumb. It was so much larger than the surrounding houses. And there he sat for years. He had no Internet access. He communicated with the outside world via couriers. Those couriers would take USB drives and travel to distant Internet cafes and such to communicate on bin Laden's behalf.
One of those couriers was identified through torture ("interrogation") of people held at Guantanemo Bay. The CIA followed said courier and found the compound in Abbottobad and, well, the rest is history.
So where does the NSA fit into this? It seems like good ol HUMINT (human intelligence) to me.
[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.te...
[2]: https://www.militarist-monitor.org/images/uploads/PNAC_Lette...
[3]: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4842886/user-clip-1998-biden-...
The short version is: 9/11 happens. The Taliban offer to hand over bin Laden and George W. Bush refuses [1]. Bin Laden escapes into Pakistan. We then start a completely pointless war in Iraq against someone who played no part in 9/11. There was a letter from many conservative leaders prior to 9//1 calling for the invasion of Iraq [2]. Interestingly, then Senator Biden predicted in 1998 he'd vote to topple Saddam Hussein in 1998 [3].
There is no partisan divide on US foreign policy.
Anyway, bin Laden builds a massive compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, about a half mile from the ISI (Pakistan's intelligence agency). Like, it stood out like a sore thumb. It was so much larger than the surrounding houses. And there he sat for years. He had no Internet access. He communicated with the outside world via couriers. Those couriers would take USB drives and travel to distant Internet cafes and such to communicate on bin Laden's behalf.
One of those couriers was identified through torture ("interrogation") of people held at Guantanemo Bay. The CIA followed said courier and found the compound in Abbottobad and, well, the rest is history.
So where does the NSA fit into this? It seems like good ol HUMINT (human intelligence) to me.
[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.te...
[2]: https://www.militarist-monitor.org/images/uploads/PNAC_Lette...
[3]: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4842886/user-clip-1998-biden-...
They don't claim that NSA found Bin Laden. They say that they were part of a multi-agency effort that took 9 years to find him. And they say that human intelligence led them to who the courier was.
> 9 years
Given all the resources, I guess we all need to keep our expectations low.
Given all the resources, I guess we all need to keep our expectations low.
This is a massive understatement of how difficult finding someone like that actually is.
> The short version is: 9/11 happens. The Taliban offer to hand over bin Laden and George W. Bush refuses [1]
I looked at your link. It seems you missed a huge asterisk on that from your own article:
> the third most powerful figure in the ruling Taliban regime told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US
I looked at your link. It seems you missed a huge asterisk on that from your own article:
> the third most powerful figure in the ruling Taliban regime told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US
So how did the alternative course of action work out?
EDIT: instead of rejecting the Taliban's offer outright and, say, negotiating and acceptable outcome, we chose to go to war, spend trillions of dollars, kill countless people and ultimately still leave the Taliban in power.
The Taliban saying they need proof is a negotiation. There is no court of law. We could've simply bribed them. Imagine how much cheaper and how many lives would've been saved if we'd simply given them $1 billion to hand over bin Laden.
But no, instead we started a war we could never possibly win. And again, that's not hindisght being 20/20. The US has not won a war since 1945. We watched the USSR, who had far more tolerance for losses, lose a war in Afghanistan. Like in what world did we think we would ever "win"? The outcome was entirely predictable and foreseeable. Irony of ironies, it was our material support to Afghanistan in the Soviet invasion that quite literally created bin Laden.
EDIT: instead of rejecting the Taliban's offer outright and, say, negotiating and acceptable outcome, we chose to go to war, spend trillions of dollars, kill countless people and ultimately still leave the Taliban in power.
The Taliban saying they need proof is a negotiation. There is no court of law. We could've simply bribed them. Imagine how much cheaper and how many lives would've been saved if we'd simply given them $1 billion to hand over bin Laden.
But no, instead we started a war we could never possibly win. And again, that's not hindisght being 20/20. The US has not won a war since 1945. We watched the USSR, who had far more tolerance for losses, lose a war in Afghanistan. Like in what world did we think we would ever "win"? The outcome was entirely predictable and foreseeable. Irony of ironies, it was our material support to Afghanistan in the Soviet invasion that quite literally created bin Laden.
I'm not here to support (or oppose) the war. I'm just noting that you left out a detail in your comment that a lot of people would feel is rather critical to the point.
Irony of ironies, it was our material support to Afghanistan in the Soviet invasion that quite literally created bin Laden.
Irony of ironies, this is actually a deeply Western-centric point of view which assumes that everything that happens in the world does so as a result of actions performed by its own hand -- and that the people in affected countries have no agency, goals or vision of their own.
Irony of ironies, this is actually a deeply Western-centric point of view which assumes that everything that happens in the world does so as a result of actions performed by its own hand -- and that the people in affected countries have no agency, goals or vision of their own.
>The Taliban saying they need proof is a negotiation. There is no court of law. We could've simply bribed them. Imagine how much cheaper and how many lives would've been saved if we'd simply given them $1 billion to hand over bin Laden.
They wouldn't have taken a monetary bribe or other obvious quid pro quo. That would be offensive and bad optics. It's just culturally a non-starter.
A good solution likely would have looked like your typical Bannana republic playbook where the tin pot dictator (taliban) gets the US's help quashing any opposition part of that is people the US doesn't like make it onto that list.
They wouldn't have taken a monetary bribe or other obvious quid pro quo. That would be offensive and bad optics. It's just culturally a non-starter.
A good solution likely would have looked like your typical Bannana republic playbook where the tin pot dictator (taliban) gets the US's help quashing any opposition part of that is people the US doesn't like make it onto that list.
I don't fully understand your question...
Inconcievable. We live in a binary world. They didn’t deliver him hogtied on the Resolute Desk at 8am, so Land War In Central Asia was the only option.
George W. Bush did plenty of bad things, so much so that your misleading point about him not accepting the surrender of Bin Laden was unnecessary to fabricate and only serves to destroy the credibility of everything else you wrote. Sometimes you need to let peoples' misdeeds speak for themselves, not embellish to add to your narrative.
Iraq was never about 9/11. The error of Iraq happened because the US followed one HUMINT source Saddam was developing WMD. Considering bin Laden was in Pakistan, it would presumably require a multi-source confirmation.
The invasion of Iraq was sold in part by manufacturing a connection to 9/11. This is confirmed by public opinion [1]:
> In the months leading up to the war, sizable majorities of Americans believed ... that Iraq was closely tied to terrorism – and even that Hussein himself had a role in the 9/11 attacks.
Believing one source is simply looking for justification for what you were going to do anyway. There was plenty of evidence to the contrary, not th eleast of which was the UNSCOM inspections.
Also, it's just plain illogical for Saddam to have WMDs. Let's say he has WMDs. If the US invades, would he use them? Probably not because it wouldn't change the outcome and it would invite further retaliation. So if he's not going to use them, why not give them up to save his regime?
This isn't historical 20/20 hindsight either. These discussions were being had prior to the invasion.
[1]: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/03/14/a-look-back-...
> In the months leading up to the war, sizable majorities of Americans believed ... that Iraq was closely tied to terrorism – and even that Hussein himself had a role in the 9/11 attacks.
Believing one source is simply looking for justification for what you were going to do anyway. There was plenty of evidence to the contrary, not th eleast of which was the UNSCOM inspections.
Also, it's just plain illogical for Saddam to have WMDs. Let's say he has WMDs. If the US invades, would he use them? Probably not because it wouldn't change the outcome and it would invite further retaliation. So if he's not going to use them, why not give them up to save his regime?
This isn't historical 20/20 hindsight either. These discussions were being had prior to the invasion.
[1]: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/03/14/a-look-back-...
[deleted]
Error!
Bless your heart.
Bless your heart.
> The Taliban offer to hand over bin Laden and George W. Bush refuses
A bit disingenuous to say that and leave out that the most generous version of that offer was to hand Bin Laden over to a third country.
A bit disingenuous to say that and leave out that the most generous version of that offer was to hand Bin Laden over to a third country.
So what's the goal here? To exact vengeance on one individual? To remove his ability to further act in this capacity?
Because what we chose instead was to spend $8 trillion on a 20 year war killing millions in Iraq and Afghanistan and still to objectively lose militarily, politically and in terms of the ability for the US to project power in the region. The Taliban control Afghanistan once again.
All while doing absolutely nothing agains the actual regime that provided material support to the 9/11 hijackers, the same regime from which the majority of the 19 hijackers (and bin Laden himself) actually came from.
Because what we chose instead was to spend $8 trillion on a 20 year war killing millions in Iraq and Afghanistan and still to objectively lose militarily, politically and in terms of the ability for the US to project power in the region. The Taliban control Afghanistan once again.
All while doing absolutely nothing agains the actual regime that provided material support to the 9/11 hijackers, the same regime from which the majority of the 19 hijackers (and bin Laden himself) actually came from.
None of that has anything to do with what I said.
You can make a damning case that the Bush administration's actions were pointless and self-destructive without the very misleading characterization of what the Taliban was offering, so why be disingenuous?
You can make a damning case that the Bush administration's actions were pointless and self-destructive without the very misleading characterization of what the Taliban was offering, so why be disingenuous?
20 year war killing millions in Iraq and Afghanistan
Are you sure about the "millions" part? In you know, the factual sense?
Or does it just feel like something neat to say, to get your point across?
Are you sure about the "millions" part? In you know, the factual sense?
Or does it just feel like something neat to say, to get your point across?
Do you doubt that a million iraquis died in the war that lasted almost a decade? How many people died in Ukraine or Gaza in a couple years?
> From the NSA, this seems like historical revisionism as it contradicts the bin Laden story widely accepted.
You just described counterintelligence propaganda.
You just described counterintelligence propaganda.
Edit to add: The last 10 minutes have the guest talking about the day of the raid, how only about 50 people in the NSA were aware it was going to happen, how one of the guests' wife figured out he was part of the operation - he was away the whole weekend, and she heard about the raid in the news, the emotional impact (release of tension), how they informed a junior analyst or two that their work contributed to that operation, their pride, and again how the NSA keeps the world safe, while following the law!
The aim of this podcast is definitely PR and recruiting.
Unsaid is of course that the USA accused, found guilty, and executed someone without trial, where evidence is shown of their guilt. Sure on balance I think Bin Laden is responsible for 9/11, but I think the source for this belief is the US government.