Caltrain's electrification project is paying off(sfgate.com)
sfgate.com
Caltrain's electrification project is paying off
https://www.sfgate.com/travel/article/caltrain-electrification-project-paying-off-19917422.php
81 comments
Modern tech means a lot of very rich people who live in a particular city along the Caltrain route who have lost the wonder in their life that is trains. No matter, they don't have their station anymore and everyone else gets the electric trains to enjoy.
Wow this is old news but I didn't know the Atherton station was closed: https://www.caltrain.com/news/caltrain-votes-close-atherton-...
True, and for another thought: I'm here doing my part for the environment, recycling, reducing packaging, and saving emissions where I can, and people in the first world of first worlds haven't even been using electric trains this whole time?!?
America largely invented the modern world, but then it never took the next steps because it didn’t need to. So a lot of things are stuck in a “version 1.x” endlessly patched over.
Infrastructure was built in 1920 or 1950. People still regularly pay with paper checks. Federal and state governments seem to operate mostly with paper files. And so on.
(If Elon Musk were serious about improving government efficiency, he would marshal his considerable software experience to bring departments like the IRS into the digital age supported by AI tools. That would amply pay for itself in reduced overhead and improved tax collection. But of course that’s not the kind of efficiency he wants — he’s looking to punitively fire bureaucrats perceived as leftists, not improve government revenue.)
Infrastructure was built in 1920 or 1950. People still regularly pay with paper checks. Federal and state governments seem to operate mostly with paper files. And so on.
(If Elon Musk were serious about improving government efficiency, he would marshal his considerable software experience to bring departments like the IRS into the digital age supported by AI tools. That would amply pay for itself in reduced overhead and improved tax collection. But of course that’s not the kind of efficiency he wants — he’s looking to punitively fire bureaucrats perceived as leftists, not improve government revenue.)
Besides buzzword bingo and investor hard ons, please explain why something like a tax return (IRS) would need "AI tools". I'd love to know. It's a straightforward calculation that needs accuracy. The opposite of what AI does.
>It's a straightforward calculation that needs accuracy.
If only that is all it was. It's not calculations and linking entries on one form to another that is the problem, it is interpreting the law. Suppose there is an allowed deduction for a certain type of expense. But the law doesn't provide a precise, actionable definition, it relies instead on "facts and circumstances".
Did you know, for example, that in U.S. income tax law there is no universal definition of a "trade or business", yet that distinction has a huge impact on how certain items of income are treated. So what do you do if you think you have a trade/business, but can't be certain given the information at your disposal. IRL, such disputes often must end up in a court of law to be decided.
If only that is all it was. It's not calculations and linking entries on one form to another that is the problem, it is interpreting the law. Suppose there is an allowed deduction for a certain type of expense. But the law doesn't provide a precise, actionable definition, it relies instead on "facts and circumstances".
Did you know, for example, that in U.S. income tax law there is no universal definition of a "trade or business", yet that distinction has a huge impact on how certain items of income are treated. So what do you do if you think you have a trade/business, but can't be certain given the information at your disposal. IRL, such disputes often must end up in a court of law to be decided.
Well, call it machine learning if you prefer.
Audits are currently performed manually, but the patterns of tax evasion are often obvious. Seems like a textbook case for AI automation.
Audits are currently performed manually, but the patterns of tax evasion are often obvious. Seems like a textbook case for AI automation.
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I noticed this when I visited in the 90s with appliances. Most looked like they were made in the 50s. Like vacuum cleaners or top loading washing machines which I had never seen growing up in Europe.
In New York, having a washing machine in your home at all is considered a special luxury. Most apartments apparently don’t even have the necessary electrical outlets.
The necessary electrical outlets for a washing machine are standard 110V outlets, every apartment in New York has them. They might not have convenient water hookups for them,though.
Clothes dryers usually usually take 220V outlets, which an apartment might not have.
Clothes dryers usually usually take 220V outlets, which an apartment might not have.
Heat pump dryers, now common in Europe, use about 800W which is within the 1500W maximum for a normal American outlet. Maybe these will become more popular in New York apartments?
They are more expensive to purchase, and take longer to dry the clothes, but use much less electricity.
They are more expensive to purchase, and take longer to dry the clothes, but use much less electricity.
Yet another example of shitty infrastructure, having to juggle different voltages and power outlets.
In fairness, my modern Danish apartment has a different voltage and power outlet in the place for the tumble dryer: 400V and probably one of these [1] though I've never pulled the machines out to look.
In practise, the massively power-hungry dryers of decades ago aren't very common, so my dryer is connected to a normal 220V outlet.
(Three-phase power in an apartment is now only used for the oven and hob, but is used in the building for the lift and the EV charging points in the basement.)
[1] https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Danish_3hd.html
In practise, the massively power-hungry dryers of decades ago aren't very common, so my dryer is connected to a normal 220V outlet.
(Three-phase power in an apartment is now only used for the oven and hob, but is used in the building for the lift and the EV charging points in the basement.)
[1] https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Danish_3hd.html
You don’t need musk to bring the IRS into the digital age, you need investment. And people with actual software experience.
Musk is in a unique position to recommend that investment and have the president and Congress actually listen. He won't do it, but he could.
Musk expended significant effort to get the Presidential candidate most fanatically opposed to investment in any government functions in modern history; he not only isn't in a position to have anyone listen to him on positive investment, he worked very hard to not be in that position.
The new caltrains are excellent. When is the last time anyone used that word for American public infrastructure.
I can't rave enough. It's the most 'futuristic' public infrastructure experience I've had in the US. It's not perfect. It took its time getting built, the wifi can be choppy and frequencies should be better. But I prefer optimism. The new trains getting becoming crowded, and I'm smiling ear-to-ear. People are actually buying in !
Here's an Hindi saying : "Der aaye durust aaye" (Translated as : Let it be late, as long as it's well built.)
I can't rave enough. It's the most 'futuristic' public infrastructure experience I've had in the US. It's not perfect. It took its time getting built, the wifi can be choppy and frequencies should be better. But I prefer optimism. The new trains getting becoming crowded, and I'm smiling ear-to-ear. People are actually buying in !
Here's an Hindi saying : "Der aaye durust aaye" (Translated as : Let it be late, as long as it's well built.)
San Francisco airport is pretty decent. I’ve been flying out of it for decades and it’s definitely improved over that time: access, food, wifi, other basic amenities. Even security checks are faster than most other airports I travel through.
My favorite thing is the "silent terminal" concept.
Most major airports if you arrive groggy at 5am waiting for your flight, you are blasted with a bunch of nonsense announcements that have nothing to do with your flight every 2-5 minutes "Keep your baggage with you at all times" "The USO is located...", etc. and in between the announcements loud music gets played. Trying to find a location away from a speaker is no good because there are speakers in the ceilings about every 10ft in a grid.
It surprised me when i visted SFO terminal 1 how much a quality of life improvement it is to just have silence in a public place.
Most major airports if you arrive groggy at 5am waiting for your flight, you are blasted with a bunch of nonsense announcements that have nothing to do with your flight every 2-5 minutes "Keep your baggage with you at all times" "The USO is located...", etc. and in between the announcements loud music gets played. Trying to find a location away from a speaker is no good because there are speakers in the ceilings about every 10ft in a grid.
It surprised me when i visted SFO terminal 1 how much a quality of life improvement it is to just have silence in a public place.
I didn’t realize jugaad had such a strong opposite!
The acceleration is impressive. Every wheel is powered. When those trains pull out of a station, they reach near cruising speed in their own length. With the Diesels out of the way, at peak periods there are five trains an hour in each direction.
I love electrification. Honestly after having gotten an electric car with smooth acceleration and no vibration, riding the diesel Caltrain feels like a massive step backwards in user experience, even though it's probably still better for the environment to take a diesel train than to drive. I had absolutely no discomfort issues on Caltrain before I got used to electric cars, so my body has become more sensitive.
IMO The secret ingredient that makes these regional trains work is actually conductors who check fares and remove people who aren’t paying (or otherwise harass other riders) off the train. The electric part is also cool.
Trains, schedules, speed is excellent.
But they lost all restrooms but one, and guess how often that one stays open?
Big downgrade for folks with issues.
But they lost all restrooms but one, and guess how often that one stays open?
Big downgrade for folks with issues.
New York did this in like 1910 lol.
Annual ridership is about 7m passengers (https://www.caltrain.com/media/34265) or 9m if we annualize the numbers in this article. At the same time, the Caltrain is losing more than $33m/year (https://www.caltrain.com/blog/2023/04/financial-future-caltr...) even though it recieved a huge $410m subsidy from the state government for the capital investment required to complete the electrification. So it's losing more than $5 per ride even ignoring capital costs. In fact, the farebox recovery ratio is only 25%, which is truly horrible even by public transport standards: https://www.caltrain.com/media/33996/download
The curmudgeon in my questions where it really make sense for the Caltrain to exist at all, given that it:
The curmudgeon in my questions where it really make sense for the Caltrain to exist at all, given that it:
1. It is extremely far from covering its own costs
2. The subsidy provided by the state is regressive because it principally benefits the wealthy commuters along the line
3. It imposes substantial negative externialities on the South Bay both in terms of noise & traffic delays at grade crossings
4. The line and stations occupy very valuable real estate that could be sold and put to better usesIf you are only looking at how profitable infrastructure is on the short term and only on 1st order effects you'll quickly realise you should never build it. That goes for power plants, roads, trains, subways, electrical conduits, and any other major project requiring a lot of initial investment.
It's just a stupid way to analyse infrastructure.
It's just a stupid way to analyse infrastructure.
1. Before the pandemic, farebox recovery was 73%, one of the highest in the country. Electrified, it probably would have gone even higher since at least some people avoided the train because it was too crowded at rush hour. Unfortunately it could take over a decade to return to that point if ever, but it shows that Caltrain can be fairly efficient given enough ridership.
2. There have been ongoing efforts to improve equity, including Go passes for students and low-income workers. Clipper START offers 50% off for low-income riders, youths can ride for $2/day now. Side note: subsidies and programs like this decrease farebox recovery ratios, which is why transit covering its own costs is not necessarily the end goal. In fact, the decline of commuting for tech/knowledge workers (many who now work hybrid or fully remote) has meant that less-privileged workers have started making up a larger share of Caltrain ridership.
3. The new electric trains are a lot quieter. There's ongoing, long-term projects to grade separate the remaining at-grade crossings (of the 113 crossings, 41 still need to be separated).
4. Arguably, the stations were directly responsible for the land being so valuable. Many peninsula downtowns and sometimes entire cities were built around the train stations, 100-150 years ago. Pre-pandemic, some of the most expensive apartments were the ones near the train station. Sure most of them also had the benefit of being close to downtown restaurants, but there were also big developments around Lawrence station which has basically zero local services aside from the Costco and the train station.
Of course this was mostly in the past, but downtown areas continue to be congested and the only way we can keep building high-density housing is to have good public transit. In the long run, the train provide immense benefits to the cities that host them and removing it would be shortsighted.
2. There have been ongoing efforts to improve equity, including Go passes for students and low-income workers. Clipper START offers 50% off for low-income riders, youths can ride for $2/day now. Side note: subsidies and programs like this decrease farebox recovery ratios, which is why transit covering its own costs is not necessarily the end goal. In fact, the decline of commuting for tech/knowledge workers (many who now work hybrid or fully remote) has meant that less-privileged workers have started making up a larger share of Caltrain ridership.
3. The new electric trains are a lot quieter. There's ongoing, long-term projects to grade separate the remaining at-grade crossings (of the 113 crossings, 41 still need to be separated).
4. Arguably, the stations were directly responsible for the land being so valuable. Many peninsula downtowns and sometimes entire cities were built around the train stations, 100-150 years ago. Pre-pandemic, some of the most expensive apartments were the ones near the train station. Sure most of them also had the benefit of being close to downtown restaurants, but there were also big developments around Lawrence station which has basically zero local services aside from the Costco and the train station.
Of course this was mostly in the past, but downtown areas continue to be congested and the only way we can keep building high-density housing is to have good public transit. In the long run, the train provide immense benefits to the cities that host them and removing it would be shortsighted.
Seems also important to consider the positive impacts?
- traffic reduction - emissions reduction - quality of life / time recovery of train vs driving - socialization of society
That’s off the top of my head.
Not saying those justify anything however costs are not the only factor.
- traffic reduction - emissions reduction - quality of life / time recovery of train vs driving - socialization of society
That’s off the top of my head.
Not saying those justify anything however costs are not the only factor.
Nobody asks if roads or airports pay for themselves.
Should roads exist at all, given that the gas tax doesn't cover the costs of building and maintaining roads?
And furthermore since Bay Area roads are not toll roads, the equivalent of farebox recovery ratio is zero, since road users don't need to pay to drive on the road.
And furthermore since Bay Area roads are not toll roads, the equivalent of farebox recovery ratio is zero, since road users don't need to pay to drive on the road.
I just think they're neat.
It wasn't a subsidy so much as it was an exchange of electrification for state trackage rights.
Have you considered that the real estate is valuable because there's a commuter train across the street?
iirc there are Japanese railroads that recoup their costs by owning real estate that appreciates in value once a train exists. In Los Angeles the great cable car conspiracy was kind of the opposite, real estate developers built a train to make the suburbs appealing, and then once all the property was sold there was no reason to maintain the trains so they were scrapped, bait and switch really
iirc there are Japanese railroads that recoup their costs by owning real estate that appreciates in value once a train exists. In Los Angeles the great cable car conspiracy was kind of the opposite, real estate developers built a train to make the suburbs appealing, and then once all the property was sold there was no reason to maintain the trains so they were scrapped, bait and switch really
> If you haven’t experienced the future of transportation for yourself yet
Suburban trains in my hometown have been electrified since 1920's. It only took about 100 years to start experiencing the future here in the Bay!
Suburban trains in my hometown have been electrified since 1920's. It only took about 100 years to start experiencing the future here in the Bay!
The bay area already had multiple electric trains for quite some time, I think from the 1800s and at scale in the 1920s. I think the train that ran on the lower deck of the bay bridge (before it was switched to car traffic) was also electric as were many other railroads around california. But it was removed after WWII since there was such a rapid switch to personally owned cars. bart is electric, and the muni streetcars (both have been that way for a while).
Prior to the Caltrain electrification, BART existed and it's pretty much a suburban rail system. Just served a different part of the Bay Area.
It does even read like an article from the 1920s! Still, better late than never!
In fact it was looked into by Caltrain's predecessor, the Southern Pacific railroad
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=SDI19210907.2.17
Stockton Independent, September 1921
> Electrification of Lines to Be Looked Into by S.P.
> SAN FRANCISCO, Sept. 6. — William Sproule, president of the Southern Pacific company, has received authorization from the board of directors of the railway to investigate the feasibility of electrifying the Southern Pacific lines between San Francisco and Peninsula points, It was announced here today. Better and more frequent service would result from electrification of the peninsula lines, according to parties who petitioned the Southern Pacific to take this action.
(Unfortunately, it was dismissed a couple weeks later: https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=SDI19210917.2.13)
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=SDI19210907.2.17
Stockton Independent, September 1921
> Electrification of Lines to Be Looked Into by S.P.
> SAN FRANCISCO, Sept. 6. — William Sproule, president of the Southern Pacific company, has received authorization from the board of directors of the railway to investigate the feasibility of electrifying the Southern Pacific lines between San Francisco and Peninsula points, It was announced here today. Better and more frequent service would result from electrification of the peninsula lines, according to parties who petitioned the Southern Pacific to take this action.
(Unfortunately, it was dismissed a couple weeks later: https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=SDI19210917.2.13)
Los Angeles had an extensive electric train system operated by Pacific Electric in the 1920s, but eventually they were all removed to improve motor traffic, and because the owners sold all of the real estate that the Red Cars made more attractive. This article feels like experiencing the past to me.
And they still make noise like in the 1920s with their silly horns. I was once visiting a friend who lived near those housing developments that are all along the Caltrain tracks in the South Bay. I almost lost my hearing. It was insane. No way could I live like that or even try to sleep.
Some things in America are truly shocking.
I wonder how many "environmental studies" they had to do to conclude that electric trains are better then diesel
FWIW, "environmental studies" don't necessary restrict themselves to "the environment" like trees and birds or whatever. The project increases frequency and capacity so they have to plan around things like how much longer per day grade crossings will be blocked and things like that.
Careful. Nuance like this may soon be illegal, the charges will be aggravated if it makes a bro look stupid.
I think that part of the reason we get so many "studies" done is because of how government accounting works. IMO the scenario is they have $250k free to use. But that isn't enough to do anything significant, like electrification, bridge-building, land acquisition, etc. And they're required to spend it by the end of the year (they aren't allowed to save it for next fiscal year). So you get a series of small studies that essentially waste money but look like they're accomplishing something.
The better acceleration and faster service almost have to eventually improve ridership, and electrification should improve operation cost, but YoY ridership numbers post-covid are still weird, and I'd like to see finer-grain numbers before claiming this after just a month or two.
tl;dr: nothing to see here just yet.
tl;dr: nothing to see here just yet.
I agree that it's too soon to call but the article does say that ridership is above pre-covid levels:
> The trains have also surpassed pre-COVID-19 ridership levels, with weekends becoming increasingly popular. Saturday ridership has increased 169%, and Sunday ridership has increased 142% since last October, the release said.
> The trains have also surpassed pre-COVID-19 ridership levels, with weekends becoming increasingly popular. Saturday ridership has increased 169%, and Sunday ridership has increased 142% since last October, the release said.
Possibly there's some novelty factor to riding the new trains. My 70-something year old aunt, visiting from another continent, wanted to ride the new trains (and they weren't even fully converted yet, it was day 2 of the soft launch and only a couple trains had been switched over so I had to
check the train sightings on Discord). Obviously they're not all that unique outside the US but it's exciting to see them here.
But weekend service is now twice as frequent (now every 30 minutes) which is a game changer, so it's not a surprise that those numbers in particular have shot up since they were pretty weak to begin with.
But weekend service is now twice as frequent (now every 30 minutes) which is a game changer, so it's not a surprise that those numbers in particular have shot up since they were pretty weak to begin with.
Reminds me one thing they could do that would improve BART ridership is to run buses between BART stations after hours.
Take BART in the early evening, miss the last train out, take the bus back.
Take BART in the early evening, miss the last train out, take the bus back.
every mode of transit along commute routes in the bay (rail to downtown, freeways to southbay) seems to be at a 4 year high in terms of utilization
It was hard to tell from the article whether it was electrification, new seats, some other affordance of the new purchase, or simply more ridership overall...
Well the main affordance is higher frequency and better travel times.
I love the new trains. Now if we could get them to lower the db of the horn. They blast at a minimum of 96 db. It's pointless and a big quality of life issue.
https://communities.springernature.com/posts/train-horns-sav...
https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/2019-11/FR...
https://communities.springernature.com/posts/train-horns-sav...
https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/2019-11/FR...
they changed this in southern california for the surfliner and it was a huge impact. really nice to not hear the train horn. then they added speakers that play fake train sounds at grade crossings… why
It's a federal requirement. The real solution would be not to have grade crossings, but America is generally incapable of building anything.
One of the few good things to come out of the next four years is that California will be able to basically ignore any federal requirements that serve no real purpose.
They're not going to ignore the railroad regulators.
(Also, Congress is going to flip in two years. The only constant in US politics is that voters get bored of whoever's in power and vote against them in the midterms.)
(Also, Congress is going to flip in two years. The only constant in US politics is that voters get bored of whoever's in power and vote against them in the midterms.)
thankfully california has more than enough supply of those. cities like san francisco have proven reserves that will last decades on their own
The requirement is a bit garbage. Most other countries manage to run their rail networks effectively without having their trains blast the horn at every crossing. When they do, it's typically two short tones, not the way the US does it.
> America is generally incapable of building anything.
I mean, sure. But this very article is about having built (erected?) electricity poles for those trains to run on.
I mean, sure. But this very article is about having built (erected?) electricity poles for those trains to run on.
It got delayed like three years because the tiny billionaire suburb Atherton filed a fake environmental protection lawsuit against it.
Reno put their downtown train track underground. It’s a short segment but it’s doable.
Emeryville has no horn train crossings. It’s doable.
Emeryville has no horn train crossings. It’s doable.
Other countries have changed laws requiring all crossings be gated and or have signalling. The cheap solution is to blow the horn.
Switzerland took 20 years to update most of its 4440 train crossings to meet federal requirements. 97% meet this standard as of today. The reason for the upgrade was not to reduce the annoyance of horns but to save lives which it does.
Switzerland took 20 years to update most of its 4440 train crossings to meet federal requirements. 97% meet this standard as of today. The reason for the upgrade was not to reduce the annoyance of horns but to save lives which it does.
All road crossings along the Caltrain route have both gates and signals. I think all pedestrian ones do too now (they have largely blocked off the at-grade ones).
At Del Mar crossing because you can’t see or hear anything from behind the curve. Clever solve.
I see people take photos on the train tracks all the time and trains are pretty silent.
There would be a lot more dead.
There would be a lot more dead.
Making horns non-mandatory at crossings wouldn’t prevent the engineer from using it when appropriate.
Here's over an hour of recordings of level crossings (railroad crossings) in the UK.
I've obviously only watched a couple of minutes, but there are no train horns. There's a mixture of urban and rural locations.
https://youtu.be/9FoeIxfYW20?t=122&feature=shared
I've obviously only watched a couple of minutes, but there are no train horns. There's a mixture of urban and rural locations.
https://youtu.be/9FoeIxfYW20?t=122&feature=shared
For pedestrian crossings at least, I did a long distance walk in England where there was signage at a couple crossings to the effect of look, listen, and be aware.
On other walks, there was a phone you were supposed to use (I did) to call an operations center to get a go ahead to cross.
On other walks, there was a phone you were supposed to use (I did) to call an operations center to get a go ahead to cross.
Why would a train blow its horn unless there is a chance of impact?
Trains in Switzerland also have very loud horns and if they are inside the train station this can be extremely loud. However you will only ever hear them when for example some fool jumps the tracks or something that can be live threatening.
On construction sites generally they use a separate signaling System that isn't as loud but loud enough for the workers to hear. That is also temporary.
Trains in Switzerland also have very loud horns and if they are inside the train station this can be extremely loud. However you will only ever hear them when for example some fool jumps the tracks or something that can be live threatening.
On construction sites generally they use a separate signaling System that isn't as loud but loud enough for the workers to hear. That is also temporary.
In Denmark, they are regularly used to warn at "unmanned" level crossings, i.e. where there are no warning bells, lights or barrier. And only if they are outside of towns. There are very few of these level crossings left in Denmark, and they are usually only for pedestrian paths, like say when the train travels through a forest, and the forest path crosses the tracks.
In my regular commute, which includes a local train and a regional train, there are two instances (exclusively on the local train's singular track). The regional trains I use have no level crossings on their tracks (all bridges and tunnels).
In my regular commute, which includes a local train and a regional train, there are two instances (exclusively on the local train's singular track). The regional trains I use have no level crossings on their tracks (all bridges and tunnels).
I lived in Menlo Park about .75 miles from the rails and I’d get woken up still. It’s so unbelievably dumb and annoying
Life's weird like that sometimes.
Better late than never I guess.
>If you haven’t experienced the future of transportation for yourself yet, find out what everyone has been talking about
Hahaha