Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs(thedrive.com)
thedrive.com
Rivian is opening its charging network to other EVs
https://www.thedrive.com/news/rivian-is-opening-its-charger-network-to-other-evs
291 comments
I've come to notice that there is no incentive for 3rd party ev-chargers to be dependable.
Telsa and rivian have a vested interest in keeping the chargers working. Their sales depend on the chargers working. Even a little bad press is a multiplier against sales.
They also have significant engineering effort throughout the charging ecosystem, from the batteries, on-board infrastructure, standards, mapping, strategic coverage for sales and more. Lots of engineering support and problems solved quickyly
Meanwhile I kind of suspect 3rd party charging systems are probably like 3rd-party public telephones or atms -- a rent-seeking opportunity from someone who will not shell out for quick detection and fixing of broken chargers.
I noticed this years ago - chaging a non-tesla EV was a crapshoot. evgo was expensive and pretty reliable, but only ever had two fast chargers. blink was always broken - completely undependable ev chargers. chargepoint seemed ok, but only had l2/slower chargers.
There is basically no downside to these folks letting chargers be offline for a while.
Telsa and rivian have a vested interest in keeping the chargers working. Their sales depend on the chargers working. Even a little bad press is a multiplier against sales.
They also have significant engineering effort throughout the charging ecosystem, from the batteries, on-board infrastructure, standards, mapping, strategic coverage for sales and more. Lots of engineering support and problems solved quickyly
Meanwhile I kind of suspect 3rd party charging systems are probably like 3rd-party public telephones or atms -- a rent-seeking opportunity from someone who will not shell out for quick detection and fixing of broken chargers.
I noticed this years ago - chaging a non-tesla EV was a crapshoot. evgo was expensive and pretty reliable, but only ever had two fast chargers. blink was always broken - completely undependable ev chargers. chargepoint seemed ok, but only had l2/slower chargers.
There is basically no downside to these folks letting chargers be offline for a while.
> I've come to notice that there is no incentive for 3rd party ev-chargers to be dependable.
I don't know, how often would you stop at a gas station if their pumps weren't reliable? Many 3rd party chargers are selling electricity at a mark-up.
I don't know, how often would you stop at a gas station if their pumps weren't reliable? Many 3rd party chargers are selling electricity at a mark-up.
How many broken gas stations could you build if the government gave grants for building gas stations, but not for keeping them running?
The Federal US subsidy for EV chargers require 97% uptime across the year
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03...
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03...
Unfortunately, the lost income is marginal. The risk for Tesla/Rivian, or even a gas station, is more existential.
Yeah, the forging of EA from the Dieselgate money probably has a lot to do with why they don’t feel the heat on unreliable chargers.
I suppose it would be different if chargers were run by electric utilities or were there to goose the sales of convenience stores.
I suppose it would be different if chargers were run by electric utilities or were there to goose the sales of convenience stores.
I wasn't aware that EA was owned by VW, I thought it was a separate business. Suddenly all the complaints from friends with EVs make tons more sense.
From wikipedia: (Electrify America) is a subsidiary of Volkswagen Group of America, established in late 2016 by the automaker as part of its efforts to offset emissions in the wake of the Volkswagen emissions scandal. Volkswagen, as part of its settlement following the "Dieselgate" emissions scandal, invested $2 billion in creating Electrify America.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrify_America
From wikipedia: (Electrify America) is a subsidiary of Volkswagen Group of America, established in late 2016 by the automaker as part of its efforts to offset emissions in the wake of the Volkswagen emissions scandal. Volkswagen, as part of its settlement following the "Dieselgate" emissions scandal, invested $2 billion in creating Electrify America.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrify_America
That's true, but there's also another weird counteracting effect. Lets say you have 4 chargers offering a full 350 kw each. If they get used at full power for ~15 minutes in the month, the demand charge for the month might be ~$10k (probably will be higher, tbh). This will be true even if the stations themselves see ~15% utilization.
But break two of them? Yeah, there might be an occasional line, but your fee drops to $5k and you still produce the same revenue. TBH, some of these stations likely have better ROI when a stall or two are broken.
High utilization sites are completely different, of course.
But break two of them? Yeah, there might be an occasional line, but your fee drops to $5k and you still produce the same revenue. TBH, some of these stations likely have better ROI when a stall or two are broken.
High utilization sites are completely different, of course.
The stations have all kinds of strategies for avoiding these max demand charges. They can slow down the charge rate to save money for them, but there are lots of places that have local battery storage to reduce the max demand charge likelihood.
You can sell something at a markup but a gas station sells so many $50 fill ups per day compared to an EV station, the gas station probably has about 1000X more revenue.
Sure their margin might be better than a razor-thin gas station margin but for the time being it's a miserable business. Unless there's another incentive, like selling cars.
So yeah. Like the poster said, there is no incentive for 3rd party EV chargers to be dependable.
Sure their margin might be better than a razor-thin gas station margin but for the time being it's a miserable business. Unless there's another incentive, like selling cars.
So yeah. Like the poster said, there is no incentive for 3rd party EV chargers to be dependable.
I think the answer is that there needs to be, like gas stations, substantial retail/dining side-quest stuff set up to get revenue. If you don't have working chargers, people won't buy your hamburgers and pop. Or whatever.
Likely though this market is going to need some regulation/standardization.
In the end though, the demand is sporadic. Supercharger use is only for a minority of use cases (road trips) for a small segment of EV users. I've had my Polestar2 for 3 months and have yet to use one. It will never carry the same revenue possibilities as gas stations, esp as battery sizes go up.
Likely though this market is going to need some regulation/standardization.
In the end though, the demand is sporadic. Supercharger use is only for a minority of use cases (road trips) for a small segment of EV users. I've had my Polestar2 for 3 months and have yet to use one. It will never carry the same revenue possibilities as gas stations, esp as battery sizes go up.
Agree with your thoughts. To add - I've taken my Model Y on many roadtrips and have been to many superchargers. A solid number _are_ at restaurants/shops/etc. Some aren't -- but there are so many chargers that usually you can alter the planned route to include a longer charge wherever you want.
Not only will batteries get bigger, but chargers will get faster. Most of my stops now are 10-15min so often there's not really a need for any side-questing. Tesla recently added a supercharger-specific leaderboard for their in-car Mario Kart clone, which is super cool. I think we'll see some growth there for that kind of thing, but the market is obviously much lower than gas stations/etc
Not only will batteries get bigger, but chargers will get faster. Most of my stops now are 10-15min so often there's not really a need for any side-questing. Tesla recently added a supercharger-specific leaderboard for their in-car Mario Kart clone, which is super cool. I think we'll see some growth there for that kind of thing, but the market is obviously much lower than gas stations/etc
I've liked that 7-Eleven started putting DCFC's at some of their nicer locations in the US. The last time I did a fast-charging session was for a few-minute stop after a weekend spent away from home. The 7-Eleven was a pretty new location, easily right off the highway, and had a decent taco restaurant along with the usual snacks and pizza and roller grill items. Having a quick taco, grab some drinks, and a quick pee break for the kids gave us more than enough charge to get back home.
And the charger had a traditional credit card terminal on it. I didn't need any special app. Plug in, tap my payment, and it was charging.
I was doing a road trip through Ontario and stumbled upon a set of rest stops called onRoutes. These were pretty neat. A food court with a quick convenience store with a gas station and nice restrooms, right off the highway. They had a number of DCFC's which usually seemed in good working order, but this road trip was with an ICE so I can't speak to actual uptime. I did see a lot of cars charging, on my trip, so they seemed good.
https://www.onroute.ca/
More stops need to be like that for the 250kW+ stops on major highways. They were so easy and nice to go though.
For more highway-adjacent sit-down restaurants and areas (think Cracker Barrel kind of stops and those highway exits with lots of sit-down restaurants) I think it makes more sense to have those ~50kW chargers be the norm, maybe a few higher power ones. Have a dozen or so ~50kW chargers that'll have your car to 80-90% in an hour or so, four+ 250kW+ chargers for those quickly getting through, and a bunch of 9.6kW AC chargers for those stopping for a few hours.
And the charger had a traditional credit card terminal on it. I didn't need any special app. Plug in, tap my payment, and it was charging.
I was doing a road trip through Ontario and stumbled upon a set of rest stops called onRoutes. These were pretty neat. A food court with a quick convenience store with a gas station and nice restrooms, right off the highway. They had a number of DCFC's which usually seemed in good working order, but this road trip was with an ICE so I can't speak to actual uptime. I did see a lot of cars charging, on my trip, so they seemed good.
https://www.onroute.ca/
More stops need to be like that for the 250kW+ stops on major highways. They were so easy and nice to go though.
For more highway-adjacent sit-down restaurants and areas (think Cracker Barrel kind of stops and those highway exits with lots of sit-down restaurants) I think it makes more sense to have those ~50kW chargers be the norm, maybe a few higher power ones. Have a dozen or so ~50kW chargers that'll have your car to 80-90% in an hour or so, four+ 250kW+ chargers for those quickly getting through, and a bunch of 9.6kW AC chargers for those stopping for a few hours.
I live in Ontario and haven't had a chance to use the ONroute chargers yet but I haven't heard good things. They're run by Ivy who has a bad reputation for reliability and rates.
As much as I dislike Musk personally, I will probably buy the NACS adapter and just use Tesla stations.
As much as I dislike Musk personally, I will probably buy the NACS adapter and just use Tesla stations.
> Meanwhile I kind of suspect 3rd party charging systems are probably like 3rd-party public telephones or atms -- a rent-seeking opportunity from someone who will not shell out for quick detection and fixing of broken chargers.
This only makes sense if supply of chargers outstrips demand; otherwise, they're leaving money on the table by not fixing them.
I wonder what's the financial arrangements between the charging system owners and the owners of the parking lots where they're installed.
This only makes sense if supply of chargers outstrips demand; otherwise, they're leaving money on the table by not fixing them.
I wonder what's the financial arrangements between the charging system owners and the owners of the parking lots where they're installed.
Why does 3p charging work way better in European countries like France and Germany? Talked to a guy that had a (if I recall correctly) Mercedes EV family van and he was doing a road trip and he said at least in France it was smooth going for travel.
I would think the incentive is aligned because then your not making money but you still have land rent or property taxes to pay but not generating any revenue to cover it.
I would think the incentive is aligned because then your not making money but you still have land rent or property taxes to pay but not generating any revenue to cover it.
You’re right!
Pay phones used to actually make money and get maintained by the phone company! A lot of money. And a lot of regulation. Outside of the hood, they started reducing the maintenance expenses in the mid 90s when receiving calls was pretty much banned.
Chargers are worse than ATMs, they are yet another real estate tax scheme. The actual function of charging is often not a serious consideration.
Pay phones used to actually make money and get maintained by the phone company! A lot of money. And a lot of regulation. Outside of the hood, they started reducing the maintenance expenses in the mid 90s when receiving calls was pretty much banned.
Chargers are worse than ATMs, they are yet another real estate tax scheme. The actual function of charging is often not a serious consideration.
Receiving calls? Perhaps Im too young, what was the use case for that?
Phones were expensive, in 1960, you’re looking at the equivalent of a $75/mo bill today. The median income then was about $58k 2023 dollars, about 18% less than todays median income.
Also, urban apartment buildings weren’t always wired and while traveling you didn’t always have phones in motels. My grandfather had a bar whose clientele was mostly from a shipyard. When they’d furlough the workers for a retooling or something, he’d close the place and work as musician in a resort town for a few weeks - he’d send a postcard with a pay phone for folks to call at a certain time window.
Also, urban apartment buildings weren’t always wired and while traveling you didn’t always have phones in motels. My grandfather had a bar whose clientele was mostly from a shipyard. When they’d furlough the workers for a retooling or something, he’d close the place and work as musician in a resort town for a few weeks - he’d send a postcard with a pay phone for folks to call at a certain time window.
For me it was that I wasn’t allowed to use the house phone but my girlfriend could use hers so she’d call the number of the pay phone down the street from me so it was free for me and her (but not her parents!)
Saving money, for one. Incoming payphone calls are free.
The main problem has been lack of standardization. No one wants to invest in infrastructure when there's no common standard to build to.
North America is a long way behind Europe in EV charging infrastructure:
https://evboosters.com/ev-charging-news/europe-surpasses-900...
And both are behind China:
https://evboosters.com/ev-charging-news/the-state-of-public-...
Europe and China have charging standards that everyone can build to. There is more investment, more charge point operators, more charger manufacturers, and more chargers simply because companies can deploy chargers that will work with all cars.
Eventually North America will achieve standardization by building to CCS chargers with the J3400 plug but that will be a slow and gradual process. There will be many adapters and retrofits in the meantime.
North America is a long way behind Europe in EV charging infrastructure:
https://evboosters.com/ev-charging-news/europe-surpasses-900...
And both are behind China:
https://evboosters.com/ev-charging-news/the-state-of-public-...
Europe and China have charging standards that everyone can build to. There is more investment, more charge point operators, more charger manufacturers, and more chargers simply because companies can deploy chargers that will work with all cars.
Eventually North America will achieve standardization by building to CCS chargers with the J3400 plug but that will be a slow and gradual process. There will be many adapters and retrofits in the meantime.
Where Europe dropped the ball is not forcing gas station like behaviour onto the chargers. Now we have a bazillion different charging cards and prices differ wildly depending on the Tarif.
Contactless payment by card is mandated going forward:
https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/f...
So you won't have to sign up for anything else.
https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/f...
So you won't have to sign up for anything else.
Or with Tesla leave your card in your wallet, you won't need it. The station IDs the car and charges the card on file in your account. No card, no scan, no tap, no need to use an app, just plug in. At least in the US. Hopefully they aren't forcing this step backwards to contactless payment by card on Teslas too when the existing system is so much better.
Yes, but currently that's always the most expensive option.
I am driving a lot from Cologne to Bremerhaven. Depending on the spot where I stop, I would need an EWE, EnBW, Aral, ionity, eon, shell or some smaller card to get somewhat reasonable prices. Annoying.
Get yourself a Tesla account. I think all of the Tesla chargers between Cologne and Bremerhaven are open to any CCS compatible car; you just need the tesla app and register your credit card. Tesla is usually cheaper as well as more reliable.
But there are also services like ChargePoint which unify the payment systems for numerous networks (certainly including Eon and Shell).
But there are also services like ChargePoint which unify the payment systems for numerous networks (certainly including Eon and Shell).
Why is it so hard to keep an electric charger running?
Is it just because it’s so much power that there’s weird components in there?
At face value, plugs are in general pretty solid! Like how many times in your life has a plug in your house just stopped working.
Is it just because it’s so much power that there’s weird components in there?
At face value, plugs are in general pretty solid! Like how many times in your life has a plug in your house just stopped working.
Quite a few if you count GFCIs going bad, they need to be replaced periodically. (If you test them you’ll also find that they really do have a failure mode where they keep delivering power but will no longer trip, which is a lot less noticeable than when they trip and won’t reset.)
But to your actual point: I have a feeling they’re just badly engineered. Tesla ones are so much more reliable than third parties. I’m not sure if that’s because they break less or are fixed faster, and I suspect it’s some of both, but the difference is very large.
But to your actual point: I have a feeling they’re just badly engineered. Tesla ones are so much more reliable than third parties. I’m not sure if that’s because they break less or are fixed faster, and I suspect it’s some of both, but the difference is very large.
no - poor design, lack of organization to fix them were issues.
But a key issue seems to be that EA went crazy and made their chargers out of lots of different components in a panic to get started, analogous to the PC world where there are huge numbers of different parts configurations, and even if you have only 6 major charger models, your fix it tech probably doesn't have parts of all 6. It seems obvious this was a bad strategy, but they wanted to get their chargers working as fast as possible. Instead they created a permanent bad quality reputation that may never be fixed for EA.
But it's not just EA, other companies seemed to have no plan for fixing their chargers when they break.
But a key issue seems to be that EA went crazy and made their chargers out of lots of different components in a panic to get started, analogous to the PC world where there are huge numbers of different parts configurations, and even if you have only 6 major charger models, your fix it tech probably doesn't have parts of all 6. It seems obvious this was a bad strategy, but they wanted to get their chargers working as fast as possible. Instead they created a permanent bad quality reputation that may never be fixed for EA.
But it's not just EA, other companies seemed to have no plan for fixing their chargers when they break.
I mean they’re buying electricity for 10 cents and selling it for 60. They sell quite a few kw per hr that way at the fast chargers, and there are frequently lines so it’s not as if supply greatly outstrips demand.
Profit is the incentive.
Profit is the incentive.
The gross margins on EV chargers are likely pretty good as you say. But is there any evidence that these networks actually turn a net profit? These charging stations are very expensive to install and require ongoing maintenance/repairs.
The only charging network I know that is publicly traded is Chargepoint, and they have never turned a profit. In fact, their losses have increased as revenue has gone up. But, they are not a perfect example since their chargers are independently operated with prices set by the operator (with prices anywhere from free to significantly in excess of retail electricity prices).
The only charging network I know that is publicly traded is Chargepoint, and they have never turned a profit. In fact, their losses have increased as revenue has gone up. But, they are not a perfect example since their chargers are independently operated with prices set by the operator (with prices anywhere from free to significantly in excess of retail electricity prices).
I think the answer has to be yes. They can easily pull in a few grand a month from the electricity. They generally exist rent-free. They don’t cost that much to install.
Maintenance doesn’t seem to be even half the issue for Tesla that it is for the rest but they could also just care more. I suspect it’s both.
Maintenance doesn’t seem to be even half the issue for Tesla that it is for the rest but they could also just care more. I suspect it’s both.
> They don’t cost that much to install.
DC fast chargers are >$100k to install in the US.
DC fast chargers are >$100k to install in the US.
tesla has a factory that makes their chargers and equipment. They have standardized chargers, mass production can lead to refining the design, fixing common pain points. Most other companies seem to have taken the pc organ bank strategy where they made it out of almost careless combination of available parts - EA is the poster child.
I'm sure careful people tried to make a plan but they all ended up being such a dumpster fire of failures and low quality with no visible plan to fix them it's hard to understand.
I'm sure careful people tried to make a plan but they all ended up being such a dumpster fire of failures and low quality with no visible plan to fix them it's hard to understand.
Yeah, I assume their chargers are better engineered than the competition. And also that since they've got a national footprint they're better able to respond when one goes down. They DO go down, I've seen it, but with EA it seems there's always at least one inoperable in any bank of them.
You'd think now that Tesla is under 50% of EV sales here (and under 20% globally) that this problem will be solved soon, but I really don't know.
You'd think now that Tesla is under 50% of EV sales here (and under 20% globally) that this problem will be solved soon, but I really don't know.
I'd drop Tesla from that argument. No, not that the SC network is bad.
Their CEO alienated 50% of their customer base with politics. This is going to be one of the most interesting case studies in brand management and advertising history.
But you are probably correct. I think making the infrastructure act funding contingent on reliability metrics is pretty key.
You know, if the money doesn't get yanked by the administration in a month.
So what is the incentive for operational gas pumps: Oh right, the convenience store (even more important for EVs who have to idle longer) and brand name.
Their CEO alienated 50% of their customer base with politics. This is going to be one of the most interesting case studies in brand management and advertising history.
But you are probably correct. I think making the infrastructure act funding contingent on reliability metrics is pretty key.
You know, if the money doesn't get yanked by the administration in a month.
So what is the incentive for operational gas pumps: Oh right, the convenience store (even more important for EVs who have to idle longer) and brand name.
50% is grossly exaggerated and kind of shows you’re in a bubble. Tesla sells in China, the world’s largest car market and by far the largest EV market, and Europe, and Australia, and Japan etc. even half of americans dont give a fuck despite some democrats claiming that. Most people dont give a fuck about the ceo’s politics except maybe in the bay area.
Tesla's sales in China are shrinking, but for ordinary car sales reasons - the competition has cheaper cars.[1]
The disaster in US automotive is that the manufacturers thought they could increase prices, and discovered that, instead, unsold cars are piling up. Tesla's oversupply can be seen from space.[2] Stellantis overdid price increases so much that the CEO was canned.
The US currently has 3 million unsold new cars.[3] One wonders how many will still start.
[1] https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/teslas-china-sales-fall-a...
[2] https://jalopnik.com/so-many-unsold-teslas-are-piling-up-tha...
[3] https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo
The disaster in US automotive is that the manufacturers thought they could increase prices, and discovered that, instead, unsold cars are piling up. Tesla's oversupply can be seen from space.[2] Stellantis overdid price increases so much that the CEO was canned.
The US currently has 3 million unsold new cars.[3] One wonders how many will still start.
[1] https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/teslas-china-sales-fall-a...
[2] https://jalopnik.com/so-many-unsold-teslas-are-piling-up-tha...
[3] https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo
Jalopnik has been peddling stories about tesla’s imminent demise due to parking lots full of unsold teslas every year since before the model 3 release lol
Agreed. Tesla fans are so enamored with Elon that there isn’t really going to be anything that changes their mind. The vast majority of people I’ve talked to who said they won’t buy a Tesla because of him are not EV owners at all. Just democrats.
Once you get past the passionate technologist crowd, and there have been signs the initial buyer pool for Tesla was already stagnating a bit in 2023, who are the next natural candidates for buyers?
The mass market is 1/3 right wing, 1/3 left wing, 1/3 centrist roughly.
The 1/3 right wing are the pickup truck buyers. Like a rock ... Strong as I can be.
The 1/3 left wing is now pretty much a no.
The 1/3 centrist is probably price driven. Tesla is still too expensive for them, and if they want a Tesla, I would say they are buying a used one.
Tesla has two cars: a sedan, a crossover, in small and medium. They don't have real pickups, work trucks, station wagons, sports cars, roadsters, delivery vans, real SUVs, city cars/kei cars, or minivans. The cybertruck is a sideshow, the robotaxi is years away given Tesla's roadmap with mundane manufacturing scaling, to say nothing of the AI advance it requires and the alien nature of it to the larger buying public.
Tesla failed to utilize its name brand in ebikes, motorcycles, scooters, or even other battery/motor devices like hand tools, lawn tools, snowblowers, riding mowers. Obviously no heavy equipment aside from some pilot Semis. No RVs.
The Solar business is meh. The grid business likely will be outcompeted by sodium ion/lfp/other schemes. Home storage is slow uptake, and again they'll probably be outcompeted in price.
Tesla has no more tech advantage. Their EV drivetrain may be a percent or two more efficient, but likely not enough to matter. NMC cylindrical cells are about to be economically noncompetitive with 150 wh/kg sodium ion and 200-225 wh/kg LFP, and denser stuff is on the 3 year roadmap. The battery day 4680 tech is basically undelivered or won't scale.
I just don't see the growth path for this company anymore barring miraculous AI combined with miraculous execution combined with miraculous domestic battery supply. About the only thing I can see floating the company it terms of real sales figures would be the Semi, but it sure looks like a soft launch to me that is still a year away, and something that will need either sulfur chemistries, solid state, or dirt cheap high density LFP/Sodium Ion to be economically viable.
The mass market is 1/3 right wing, 1/3 left wing, 1/3 centrist roughly.
The 1/3 right wing are the pickup truck buyers. Like a rock ... Strong as I can be.
The 1/3 left wing is now pretty much a no.
The 1/3 centrist is probably price driven. Tesla is still too expensive for them, and if they want a Tesla, I would say they are buying a used one.
Tesla has two cars: a sedan, a crossover, in small and medium. They don't have real pickups, work trucks, station wagons, sports cars, roadsters, delivery vans, real SUVs, city cars/kei cars, or minivans. The cybertruck is a sideshow, the robotaxi is years away given Tesla's roadmap with mundane manufacturing scaling, to say nothing of the AI advance it requires and the alien nature of it to the larger buying public.
Tesla failed to utilize its name brand in ebikes, motorcycles, scooters, or even other battery/motor devices like hand tools, lawn tools, snowblowers, riding mowers. Obviously no heavy equipment aside from some pilot Semis. No RVs.
The Solar business is meh. The grid business likely will be outcompeted by sodium ion/lfp/other schemes. Home storage is slow uptake, and again they'll probably be outcompeted in price.
Tesla has no more tech advantage. Their EV drivetrain may be a percent or two more efficient, but likely not enough to matter. NMC cylindrical cells are about to be economically noncompetitive with 150 wh/kg sodium ion and 200-225 wh/kg LFP, and denser stuff is on the 3 year roadmap. The battery day 4680 tech is basically undelivered or won't scale.
I just don't see the growth path for this company anymore barring miraculous AI combined with miraculous execution combined with miraculous domestic battery supply. About the only thing I can see floating the company it terms of real sales figures would be the Semi, but it sure looks like a soft launch to me that is still a year away, and something that will need either sulfur chemistries, solid state, or dirt cheap high density LFP/Sodium Ion to be economically viable.
I think Tesla has probably missed the boat on the semi, at least in Europe.
Scania has already delivered plenty of heavy goods EVs here in Norway. Delivery companies like the Post office, DHL, ASKO are investing heavily in large EVs but most of that is going to either Swedish Scania. Chinese SAIC is also selling well for urban delivery vehicles.
Scania sell electric articulated lorries with gross trailer weight up to 75 tonne. The range at 64 tonne is 375 km. https://www.scania.com/no/no/home/products/trucks/battery-el...
Scania has already delivered plenty of heavy goods EVs here in Norway. Delivery companies like the Post office, DHL, ASKO are investing heavily in large EVs but most of that is going to either Swedish Scania. Chinese SAIC is also selling well for urban delivery vehicles.
Scania sell electric articulated lorries with gross trailer weight up to 75 tonne. The range at 64 tonne is 375 km. https://www.scania.com/no/no/home/products/trucks/battery-el...
Tesla still has a great many advantages.
Their problem is that their valuation had the market predicting that they would generate a MAJORITY of all profit in US automotive manufacturing - they were worth more than every other player combined. This was grossly unrealistic. So expect a down round. Whether they survive that drop to... What... 5-10% of their former value? Depends on what sort of explicit and implicit dental they have accrued to scale.
Their problem is that their valuation had the market predicting that they would generate a MAJORITY of all profit in US automotive manufacturing - they were worth more than every other player combined. This was grossly unrealistic. So expect a down round. Whether they survive that drop to... What... 5-10% of their former value? Depends on what sort of explicit and implicit dental they have accrued to scale.
*"Debts" + Android Autocorrect, ladies and gentlemen
Tesla is likely quite happy to install lfp/sodium megapacks.
Self driving is in fact the growth plan. You’re not paying attention if you’re calling it miraculous, which is fine, more money for investors.
Self driving is in fact the growth plan. You’re not paying attention if you’re calling it miraculous, which is fine, more money for investors.
Have they already lost in battery tech to CATL?
Tesla was using CATL batteries in part. Tesla uses different batteries in diff cars, also some come from China, some other places.
Tesla said they'd have amazing new 4680 batteries but that didn't really succeed, a reason why the ct has lower range than planned is the new higher density batteries didn't arrive.
Tesla has one advantage left, they can make their cars at mass quantities and make a profit. Most of the western auto companies can't do that, unless they charge very high prices.
Tesla said they'd have amazing new 4680 batteries but that didn't really succeed, a reason why the ct has lower range than planned is the new higher density batteries didn't arrive.
Tesla has one advantage left, they can make their cars at mass quantities and make a profit. Most of the western auto companies can't do that, unless they charge very high prices.
You should short the stock, then.
Anecdotally, Australians are very very unhappy with Musk now due to the US election
Tesla's brand damage in Australia:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2024-08-22/tesla-reputat...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2024-08-22/tesla-reputat...
Which is a moot point anyway, since without 100% tariffs Tesla isn’t competitive with Chinese EVs that are taking Australia by storm.
Such ANGER.
The Internet says 50% of US buyers are identified democrats, YMMV for internet stats. That number doesn't seem stupid -- EVs are progressive, environmentalist, anti-establishment.
Tesla's stock is a huge bubble. It's worth the next 10 car companies combined! Yes there's a ton of AI speculation in there, but fundamentally the company's stock is about geometric growth in sales.
The most important customer to a car company is their current ones, since those have a very high chance of being loyal to the brand when they buy again.
Tesla is a company that does almost no advertising. Maybe that's because the press gives them enough hype, but I suspect there is a huge degree of passionate advocacy. I should know, I ... was ... a strong advocate for Tesla. I still am for EVs, but they were one and the same with Tesla for 20 years.
A subtle thing happened with the Tesla owners I know. They went from advocating for their car, to rationalizing it, within the span of six months. I don't think it is a stretch to say that Tesla owners were passionate advocates for their vehicles. All progressive, environmentalist people I know are now hell-nos.
Point is, Tesla is stock bubble. Their sales are already down this year, and I'm picking up the popcorn to see what happens in Q3/Q4. The trade war will probably make Tesla a noncompetitive product in China. So US sales are going to get MORE important, not less.
People are actively selling their Teslas. Sure, it's on the used market, what does that matter? I don't have stats, but how many sales of new Teslas will a robust used market (which also has Hertz dumping cars onto the market) cannibalize? I'd say each used Tesla is half of a new one.
Point is, I don't see Tesla as a stock that can rationalize bad sales. They don't have a brand-spanking new car for a new mass market: the Cybertruck is explicitly a miss from the pickup truck market. The Semi still can't seem to scale production. The robotaxi is, face it, two years away and a fundamental leap in AI from working.
Trump is going to be on television reminding every democrat who helped him vocally, publicly, monetarily, possibly illegally get him in office, and will join an agency that will target progressive government systematically and with high visibility.
All it takes is, what, 1/3 of the 50% democrats of their potential customer base to say "hell no" and that's ... 16% drop in sales. Ever seen a company lose 16% of sales?
Good luck with that stock, folks.
The Internet says 50% of US buyers are identified democrats, YMMV for internet stats. That number doesn't seem stupid -- EVs are progressive, environmentalist, anti-establishment.
Tesla's stock is a huge bubble. It's worth the next 10 car companies combined! Yes there's a ton of AI speculation in there, but fundamentally the company's stock is about geometric growth in sales.
The most important customer to a car company is their current ones, since those have a very high chance of being loyal to the brand when they buy again.
Tesla is a company that does almost no advertising. Maybe that's because the press gives them enough hype, but I suspect there is a huge degree of passionate advocacy. I should know, I ... was ... a strong advocate for Tesla. I still am for EVs, but they were one and the same with Tesla for 20 years.
A subtle thing happened with the Tesla owners I know. They went from advocating for their car, to rationalizing it, within the span of six months. I don't think it is a stretch to say that Tesla owners were passionate advocates for their vehicles. All progressive, environmentalist people I know are now hell-nos.
Point is, Tesla is stock bubble. Their sales are already down this year, and I'm picking up the popcorn to see what happens in Q3/Q4. The trade war will probably make Tesla a noncompetitive product in China. So US sales are going to get MORE important, not less.
People are actively selling their Teslas. Sure, it's on the used market, what does that matter? I don't have stats, but how many sales of new Teslas will a robust used market (which also has Hertz dumping cars onto the market) cannibalize? I'd say each used Tesla is half of a new one.
Point is, I don't see Tesla as a stock that can rationalize bad sales. They don't have a brand-spanking new car for a new mass market: the Cybertruck is explicitly a miss from the pickup truck market. The Semi still can't seem to scale production. The robotaxi is, face it, two years away and a fundamental leap in AI from working.
Trump is going to be on television reminding every democrat who helped him vocally, publicly, monetarily, possibly illegally get him in office, and will join an agency that will target progressive government systematically and with high visibility.
All it takes is, what, 1/3 of the 50% democrats of their potential customer base to say "hell no" and that's ... 16% drop in sales. Ever seen a company lose 16% of sales?
Good luck with that stock, folks.
Is it Tesla sales that is down or a general down trend in the car market? Tesla's Model Y is still the best selling car model in the world in 2024
> Tesla's Model Y is still the best selling car model in the world in 2024
Do you have a source for that? Tesla is not even in the top 10 largest auto manufacturers, but the larger ones have way more models so I suppose it is possible Model Y is the best selling car (though it certainly isnt in the US).
Do you have a source for that? Tesla is not even in the top 10 largest auto manufacturers, but the larger ones have way more models so I suppose it is possible Model Y is the best selling car (though it certainly isnt in the US).
Other EV brands have increased sales in the same time period Tesla has lost them.
The geography matters, but just speaking for the US, rational buyers who want an EV will learn their lesson and come to Tesla. Maybe after one last ICE mistake but eventually.
Superchargers are not just a bullet point, having them or not is a dividing line between "it just works" and "life is miserable" for EV owners. And only a small subset of them are open to non-Teslas for who knows how long.
Superchargers are not just a bullet point, having them or not is a dividing line between "it just works" and "life is miserable" for EV owners. And only a small subset of them are open to non-Teslas for who knows how long.
That is simply not true. You are speaking about the past. In the present and the future, especially as superchargers open up to other brands and more NEVI chargers get built in the second half of this decade, I see absolutely no reason people would “come to Tesla.”
I would put money on the opposite, and on people moving to other brands.
I would put money on the opposite, and on people moving to other brands.
Superchargers opening up will not be overnight. It will take years.
Prices will be higher for non Teslas and will require inconvenient steps and even membership plans to get a slight price break. And there will be fewer features. When the chargers are even ready. A few are, but don’t be fooled to think that means bad times are in the past for non-Tesla EVs.
As to other chargers being built, sure, but scale and ubiquity is what matters. Not having one fast charger at the odd Four Seasons resort. I’ll believe it when I see it.
Prices will be higher for non Teslas and will require inconvenient steps and even membership plans to get a slight price break. And there will be fewer features. When the chargers are even ready. A few are, but don’t be fooled to think that means bad times are in the past for non-Tesla EVs.
As to other chargers being built, sure, but scale and ubiquity is what matters. Not having one fast charger at the odd Four Seasons resort. I’ll believe it when I see it.
Tesla is not importing to china. Its not debt ridden like the 10 other car companies, and has a growth outlook far beyond them via FSD and renewables. They produce 1.5M cars a year, Hertz is a blip. FSD13 is looking fantastic.
What competitive advantage does Tesla have in renewables?
They produced 1.5 million. Their sales are down, they have no new models releasing, they have competition on all fronts, they likely will lose the Chinese market in the trade war. They need to sell 20 million vehicles to justify their stock.
If Tesla has a kuckass sub 10000$ sodium ion city car (aka the car for 1-3 billion people)... But they have luxury vehicles and that's it.
Fully auto drive is a convergent evolution of infrastructure problem. It is ten years away. Army of Indians won't cut it.
They produced 1.5 million. Their sales are down, they have no new models releasing, they have competition on all fronts, they likely will lose the Chinese market in the trade war. They need to sell 20 million vehicles to justify their stock.
If Tesla has a kuckass sub 10000$ sodium ion city car (aka the car for 1-3 billion people)... But they have luxury vehicles and that's it.
Fully auto drive is a convergent evolution of infrastructure problem. It is ten years away. Army of Indians won't cut it.
You’re not paying attention to fsd but talk very confidently about the stock. I encourage you to short it
When I look at my Tesla, I see the hard work of hundreds (or thousands) of engineers, tasked with doing something new and complicated. They're collective trailblazers, and they know they're making the product that best it can be, given the constraints.
You look and you see one person.
You look and you see one person.
They were once trailblazing, while their CEO is lighting progressive environmentalism on fire.
Tesla is building a moat. They are defending their market share, preventing subsidies aiding competitors, keeping China out of the US market. That's not trailblazing, its not innovative.
Tesla needs to jettison their CEO. He's toxic and destructive to the mission of the company, or at least the mission it used to have.
Tesla is building a moat. They are defending their market share, preventing subsidies aiding competitors, keeping China out of the US market. That's not trailblazing, its not innovative.
Tesla needs to jettison their CEO. He's toxic and destructive to the mission of the company, or at least the mission it used to have.
How is progressive environmentalism different from normal environmentalism?
I don't see that the mission of Tesla is any different from when it started. What's the new mission?
I don't see that the mission of Tesla is any different from when it started. What's the new mission?
how many of those engineers are still at Tesla? their churn rate is known to be pretty high...
> incentive for operational gas pumps
It seems gas stations get 70% of the profits from the conveience stores.
EV charging stations are pretty standalone. They could probably do the mcdonalds thing - become real-estate companies. Leasing surrounding land to convenience stores could be a good model.
It seems gas stations get 70% of the profits from the conveience stores.
EV charging stations are pretty standalone. They could probably do the mcdonalds thing - become real-estate companies. Leasing surrounding land to convenience stores could be a good model.
I don’t think most people make purchasing decisions based on the personal politics of a firm’s CEO. It will be interesting to see how impactful it ends up being.
Most car buyers buy cars on a practical basis.
For a consumer to buy an EV is one that involves other brand factors: politics/environmentalism was a large component of initial buyers. Tesla's inception was around the time of Michael Moore's who killed the electric car.
The core demographic of the electric vehicle in America is still Urban.
For a consumer to buy an EV is one that involves other brand factors: politics/environmentalism was a large component of initial buyers. Tesla's inception was around the time of Michael Moore's who killed the electric car.
The core demographic of the electric vehicle in America is still Urban.
Most CEOs don’t attempt to directly influence an election to align with their personal politics by spending a quarter of a billion dollars on a candidate’s campaign, either.
Most CEOs aren’t in the spotlight actively campaigning
[deleted]
As a cybertruck owner who likes to drive deep into national parks, I'm optimistic about this. Tesla covers the big highways really well with their superchargers, but where they fall short are those adventure/outdoors destinations. E.g. the north cascades loop in WA state. You can find the occasional level 2 charger but they are painfully slow and aren't maintained well. Prior to the CT, Tesla didn't have "adventure-capable" vehicles, so serving those locations was not a priority. Hopefully with Rivian's DNA being more outdoors-oriented, everyone with a beefy EV can benefit.
How do you like the Cybertruck.. I find the appearance polarizing, much like G1 priuses.
It's a pleasure to drive and it has been great for what I use it for. Mostly family stuff but the occasional camping trip in the middle of nowhere. A Rivian R1S probably would have been more practical for me due to the 3 rows of seats. But I love the angular look. It's definitely polarizing, no question.
Some downsides: snow/ice can block the headlights, the windshield wiper and washer fluid sprayer are bad, the range isn't good compared to competitors.
Some downsides: snow/ice can block the headlights, the windshield wiper and washer fluid sprayer are bad, the range isn't good compared to competitors.
I've not been a huge fan of Tesla generally because of the lack of physical buttons, as well as build quality.
I think my next vehicle, will be at a minimum plug in hybrid, and maybe full BEV, ironically, replacing our dual electric tank hot water heaters allows for us to install a charger.
I think my next vehicle, will be at a minimum plug in hybrid, and maybe full BEV, ironically, replacing our dual electric tank hot water heaters allows for us to install a charger.
Teslas have plenty of physical buttons. You've been lied to.
I looked at a model 3 at the time I was shopping for my Chrysler 300, and saw with my own eyes.
So unless my eyes are lying, no, I dont think I have been.
So unless my eyes are lying, no, I dont think I have been.
They are multi function, so just looking won’t quite get you there. There are some surprises there your eyes won’t see.
Like any good UI, the basic uses are easy to get, but there are other features there to be discovered in each button. It’s really well done.
Like any good UI, the basic uses are easy to get, but there are other features there to be discovered in each button. It’s really well done.
Just came to say that Electrify America in late 2024 is NOT the Electrify America of 2023.
Legitimately you are looking at >90% odds that all stalls will be working at full power.
Idk how they got it together but knock on wood.
Legitimately you are looking at >90% odds that all stalls will be working at full power.
Idk how they got it together but knock on wood.
IIRC they changed hardware providers and the new one makes way more reliable gear.
This is true. It has gotten way, way better.
Superchargers also have the benefit of only having to support Teslas. It is very relevant to note that the rollout of using superchargers by other brands has been a giant clusterfuck.
What ended up happening w/ that whole "downsizing/firing the Tesla supercharger team" episode a year ago or so?
Tesla’s magic is excellent, quick, and cheap manufacturing coupled with their own dedicated software for them. And constant iteration.
EA is a pathetic failure because its a hodgepodge of outsourced components (so very difficult to iterate) running on some shitty outsourced windows based software.
EA is a pathetic failure because its a hodgepodge of outsourced components (so very difficult to iterate) running on some shitty outsourced windows based software.
EA is a pathetic failure because it was the punishment for Volkswagen for the emissions scandal. They were obliged to do it, not chosen.
That and it seems like VW can't reliably deliver any decent software on any kind of platform. It's incredible how they have so many cars hobbled with some of the worst UXs on the market. It's not even like most of their competition is that competent, they're just exceptionally bad.
Look at a lot of the reviews of the ID series, like the recent ID.Buzz.
Look at a lot of the reviews of the ID series, like the recent ID.Buzz.
> windows based software
say no more
say no more
TIL Rivian has a charging network
Rivian's R&D center is in Palo Alto, but their charger map doesn't show a public charger anywhere near there. They have zero chargers of their own in Silicon Valley.
There's a standards group at SAE working on making US charger payment compatibility work.[1] BP Pulse, General Motors, Ford, ChargePoint, Electrify America, Tesla, Toyota, and Rivian are on board.
It's good to see more higher-powered chargers. When and if solid state batteries with 9 minute charge times ship in volume, they'll need big chargers. QuantumState and ProLogium announced "breakthroughs" again this week. They do that a lot.
Samples of solid state batteries do exist. It's quantity production that's hard. Ehang, the flying car company, demonstrated a 48 minute flight using prototype solid state batteries recently.[2]
As I've said before, I think the future is one for one replacement of gasoline pumps with fast chargers. Once charge times drop below 10 minutes, a charging station doesn't have to look like a parking lot.
[1] https://www.sae.org/news/2024/12/sae-itc-plug-and-charge-fra...
[2] https://www.ehang.com/article/
There's a standards group at SAE working on making US charger payment compatibility work.[1] BP Pulse, General Motors, Ford, ChargePoint, Electrify America, Tesla, Toyota, and Rivian are on board.
It's good to see more higher-powered chargers. When and if solid state batteries with 9 minute charge times ship in volume, they'll need big chargers. QuantumState and ProLogium announced "breakthroughs" again this week. They do that a lot.
Samples of solid state batteries do exist. It's quantity production that's hard. Ehang, the flying car company, demonstrated a 48 minute flight using prototype solid state batteries recently.[2]
As I've said before, I think the future is one for one replacement of gasoline pumps with fast chargers. Once charge times drop below 10 minutes, a charging station doesn't have to look like a parking lot.
[1] https://www.sae.org/news/2024/12/sae-itc-plug-and-charge-fra...
[2] https://www.ehang.com/article/
> Rivian's R&D center is in Palo Alto, but their charger map doesn't show a public charger anywhere near there. They have zero chargers of their own in Silicon Valley.
Similarly, Tesla chargers in the New York area were the first to receive Magic Docks because their Energy manufacturing facility is there including the engineering aspects of it.
Similarly, Tesla chargers in the New York area were the first to receive Magic Docks because their Energy manufacturing facility is there including the engineering aspects of it.
> Rivian's R&D center is in Palo Alto, but their charger map doesn't show a public charger anywhere near there. They have zero chargers of their own in Silicon Valley.
Silicon Valley has one of the highest density of EV chargers in the world, why would Rivian need to build more?
Their goal appears to be covering areas poorly served to expand the places EV owners can go. This seems much more valuable than adding another plug to an already well served urban area.
Silicon Valley has one of the highest density of EV chargers in the world, why would Rivian need to build more?
Their goal appears to be covering areas poorly served to expand the places EV owners can go. This seems much more valuable than adding another plug to an already well served urban area.
Yeah, and they have chargers in outdoorsy places where others don't. Great news for other EV owners who like to get into the great outdoors (national parks, etc.)
Rivian's brand identity was trying to push the off-road/nature usage of their trucks/SUVs, so that focus made a lot of sense. They announced a big partnership with the Parks Department to have chargers at major National Parks. I hope that partnership will continue even as the network opens up to more users, because that was an interesting focus for a charger network.
~90 locations?
The key is that they are mostly in remote areas, not the cities.
[deleted]
Yeah I've just never seen one, and don't have a Rivian, so it never came across the media I consume. I'm in the Houston area, and they only have 3 in Texas, none of which are near me. Only one is on a freeway that I may likely encounter.
I've got a Rivian and have only used their chargers on a road trip to Whistler from the Bay Area. One was in Shasta behind a little hotel—you'd not see it if you weren't looking for it. The other was at a Homewood Suites lot somewhere in Southern Oregon. Unsurprisingly, these were back-to-back stops. So, I think they were specifically put there to help bridge a gap between Northern CA and Southern OR.
If you were going to use it, your car's navigation would probably route you there, and you wouldn't need to look for it. FWIW.
Agreed. That comment was just a response to the parent who commented that they hadn't seen RAN chargers often.
Of note, right by the Shasta station was a large Supercharger bank, so the planning for this was probably done before the Rivian deal to use Tesla chargers and the free adapter program Rivian implemented. They may have kept that one anyway, considering the Shasta Area is probably underserved and fits Rivian's target market for their stations ("adventure" areas)
Of note, right by the Shasta station was a large Supercharger bank, so the planning for this was probably done before the Rivian deal to use Tesla chargers and the free adapter program Rivian implemented. They may have kept that one anyway, considering the Shasta Area is probably underserved and fits Rivian's target market for their stations ("adventure" areas)
They're more common further west, especially around national parks and other outdoorsy areas
They must not have one, because they’re ALWAYS taking up two stalls at the Tesla supercharger ones.
Take this to daddy Elon - this has absolutely nothing to do with Rivian.
Rivian placed their charging port on the front left corner, while Teslas have ports on the rear left corner. So to charge a Rivian at a Tesla Supercharger, you have to park in the adjacent spot and plug in.[1]
More Supercharging stations are adding "trailer compatible" spots, so this should become less of an issue over time. I would also bet that EV manufacturers will standardize on a port location similar to how gas vehicles have. (Early gas vehicles often put the fill hole in places like the dash or under the seat.)
1. https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1f0wt4v/okay_is_the...
More Supercharging stations are adding "trailer compatible" spots, so this should become less of an issue over time. I would also bet that EV manufacturers will standardize on a port location similar to how gas vehicles have. (Early gas vehicles often put the fill hole in places like the dash or under the seat.)
1. https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1f0wt4v/okay_is_the...
> I would also bet that EV manufacturers will standardize on a port location similar to how gas vehicles have
No need. Just make the cables longer and the problem is solved. Even Tesla has put longer cables on their V4 chargers.
Here's a long cable on some EnBW Alpitronic chargers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK2shbCwDYM
No need. Just make the cables longer and the problem is solved. Even Tesla has put longer cables on their V4 chargers.
Here's a long cable on some EnBW Alpitronic chargers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK2shbCwDYM
Longer cables have significant disadvantages. They cost more. They're less efficient, meaning they charge slower and/or require more cooling. They contain more metal, making them more appealing to thieves. They get tangled and damaged more easily. That's why Tesla made their cables so short and standardized on a charging port location.
I'm sure future charging stations will have some long cables for vehicles with odd port locations or trailers, but I don't know if every charger at a station will have a long cable. Considering the disadvantages of long cables, it makes a lot of sense for manufacturers to use one location for the charging port. That allows owners to use as many chargers as possible. And it would mean that anyone driving an EV wouldn't have to remember where the port is on their specific vehicle.
I'm sure future charging stations will have some long cables for vehicles with odd port locations or trailers, but I don't know if every charger at a station will have a long cable. Considering the disadvantages of long cables, it makes a lot of sense for manufacturers to use one location for the charging port. That allows owners to use as many chargers as possible. And it would mean that anyone driving an EV wouldn't have to remember where the port is on their specific vehicle.
The cables are going from a cabinet many meters away from the dispenser to the dispenser. They could go another 3-4 feet and suddenly support a lot more vehicles.
Or Tesla could have placed the dispensers to the sides of even some of the spaces and alleviated the issue.
But Tesla envisioned only the few Tesla models to ever charge at Tesla chargers, so they designed them with tight tolerances.
Or Tesla could have placed the dispensers to the sides of even some of the spaces and alleviated the issue.
But Tesla envisioned only the few Tesla models to ever charge at Tesla chargers, so they designed them with tight tolerances.
> I don't know if every charger at a station will have a long cable.
Every charger will have longer cables. Longer cables have been deployed on chargers from many manufacturers for years. It's not novel.
Tesla is generally behind the curve with charger development. Kempower and Alpitronic make the best chargers.
Every charger will have longer cables. Longer cables have been deployed on chargers from many manufacturers for years. It's not novel.
Tesla is generally behind the curve with charger development. Kempower and Alpitronic make the best chargers.
Both of those companies have much higher costs per charger than Tesla. Kempower doesn't make their prices public, but the cheapest I could find was $50,000 for a 1 port 50kW charger. A dual port 200kW charger was almost $200,000. Alptronic's chargers are $50,000 for a 1 port 75kW charger and $90,000 for a 2 port charger with 300kW total output. Those numbers are just for the hardware. That doesn't include costs for installation, land, or grid connection. My best estimate of Tesla costs is around $41,000 per plug, and that includes all of those extra expenses.[1]
Sadly, the graveyard of failed companies is full of ones that made amazing products. Kempower's revenue has been going down over the past year, and they've burned through half of their cash reserves in the past few quarters. They've decreased headcount to reduce costs. I hope they pull out of this dive, as more competition is great for consumers. But it really is the case that fancier chargers are significantly more expensive. So much so that it's hard to make them profitable.
1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42344230
Sadly, the graveyard of failed companies is full of ones that made amazing products. Kempower's revenue has been going down over the past year, and they've burned through half of their cash reserves in the past few quarters. They've decreased headcount to reduce costs. I hope they pull out of this dive, as more competition is great for consumers. But it really is the case that fancier chargers are significantly more expensive. So much so that it's hard to make them profitable.
1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42344230
Rivian designed their vehicles long before Tesla offered them access to superchargers.
Globally, Tesla chargers have been available to most EVs for many years. America moving to a standard shouldn't have shocked anyone.
The chargers shouldn't have been made so short as to only ever accept 2-3 models of cars with identical charger placements. But they were designed to only work with a few Tesla models, so they weren't designed with flexibility in mind. Even Cybertrucks towing have a big issue with the vast majority of existing deployed chargers.
Lots of ICE vehicles have their gas inlets in a number of different spots. Some even have them behind the rear license plate! And yet people don't seem to have an issue getting gas in their cars.
IMO having the vast majority of chargers at the head like that was a bad decision. Putting them on the side of the spots makes a ton of sense and really opens up a lot of flexibility.
Lots of ICE vehicles have their gas inlets in a number of different spots. Some even have them behind the rear license plate! And yet people don't seem to have an issue getting gas in their cars.
IMO having the vast majority of chargers at the head like that was a bad decision. Putting them on the side of the spots makes a ton of sense and really opens up a lot of flexibility.
from my understanding this is addressed with the new v4 supercharger stations that are coming online now. its not just a rivian problem its the same with Ford EVs as well.
How did we get from a situation where you could just pay with cash/card for fuel to having monopolized single-brand car fueling stations?
When it started taking 30 minutes to "fill up" your car.
High speed chargers can cost >$200k installed.
A gas pump costs about $25k installed.
If the average person spends 4 minutes at a pump, that comes out to:
The time value of a slot at a super charger can be >$5 for each charge.
The time value of a slot at a gas pump is ~$0.07 per fill up.
The economics of a charging business are awful. High CapEx, few cars, not many of them need chargers since they can charge at home.
The economics of a gas station were not terrible.
There's a reason you don't see immigrants from all over the world coming to the US to open charging stations the way you saw them opening gas stations.
And that's the reason you have charging monopolies.
High speed chargers can cost >$200k installed.
A gas pump costs about $25k installed.
If the average person spends 4 minutes at a pump, that comes out to:
The time value of a slot at a super charger can be >$5 for each charge.
The time value of a slot at a gas pump is ~$0.07 per fill up.
The economics of a charging business are awful. High CapEx, few cars, not many of them need chargers since they can charge at home.
The economics of a gas station were not terrible.
There's a reason you don't see immigrants from all over the world coming to the US to open charging stations the way you saw them opening gas stations.
And that's the reason you have charging monopolies.
Companies tend not to publish their costs, but we can find some info about the economics of charging stations. A grant program in Texas subsidized up to 70% of the cost of charging stations. Tesla bid $500k for a fast charging station with 17 plugs, and around $380k for a station with 9 plugs.[1] That's $29k per plug for the 17 charger station. Assuming they asked for the maximum subsidy, that means Tesla's costs are around $41k per plug.
If Tesla bills customers 20 cents per kWh above market electricity rates, they'll make back the cost of the plug after 205,000kWh. A typical EV has a 70-100kWh battery, so that's 2,000-3,000 full charges. If it takes an hour to fully charge a car, then each plug will be profitable after 2-4 months assuming a 100% duty cycle. Actual duty cycles are much lower. If we assume the charger is active 15% of the time, then it will be profitable after 18-30 months. Again, these are all rather pessimistic estimates. Actual markups and duty cycles are higher, and actual charging times are shorter. If we assume a 20% duty cycle, 45 minute charging time, and a 30 cent per kWh markup, it only takes 8-10 months to become profitable. I didn't include maintenance costs, but those are much lower than gas stations because charging stations require no full time staff.
1. https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2022/04/14/teslas...
If Tesla bills customers 20 cents per kWh above market electricity rates, they'll make back the cost of the plug after 205,000kWh. A typical EV has a 70-100kWh battery, so that's 2,000-3,000 full charges. If it takes an hour to fully charge a car, then each plug will be profitable after 2-4 months assuming a 100% duty cycle. Actual duty cycles are much lower. If we assume the charger is active 15% of the time, then it will be profitable after 18-30 months. Again, these are all rather pessimistic estimates. Actual markups and duty cycles are higher, and actual charging times are shorter. If we assume a 20% duty cycle, 45 minute charging time, and a 30 cent per kWh markup, it only takes 8-10 months to become profitable. I didn't include maintenance costs, but those are much lower than gas stations because charging stations require no full time staff.
1. https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2022/04/14/teslas...
EV manufacturers (re: most car manufactures) are going to do all they can to get the government to subsidize this as much as possible.
I noticed an explosion of EV charging stations where I live after the state government put incentives in to subsidize their build out. Other states have done it already and are doing it now.
They're going to see the pattern of "I can get the government to subsidize this" and will hold out for them going forward, is my best guess.
I noticed an explosion of EV charging stations where I live after the state government put incentives in to subsidize their build out. Other states have done it already and are doing it now.
They're going to see the pattern of "I can get the government to subsidize this" and will hold out for them going forward, is my best guess.
It's important to distinguish Tesla from other companies. The others haven't figured out how to make chargers cheaply yet, so they're forced to ask for subsidies. That's why Tesla's bids on that Texas contract were so much lower than the competition.
Tesla mass produces their charging stations in factories. Entire stations are assembled from modular units, mounted on a concrete slab, and shipped to the installation site on a flatbed.[1] These optimizations have gotten installation times down to 4 days.[2] Sources inside of Tesla have claimed their charging network is profitable, which is impressive considering that until recently, their network got no subsidies because it only supported charging Teslas.
1. https://x.com/Tesla/status/1636085524694695939
2. https://x.com/TeslaCharging/status/1777395990766432596
Tesla mass produces their charging stations in factories. Entire stations are assembled from modular units, mounted on a concrete slab, and shipped to the installation site on a flatbed.[1] These optimizations have gotten installation times down to 4 days.[2] Sources inside of Tesla have claimed their charging network is profitable, which is impressive considering that until recently, their network got no subsidies because it only supported charging Teslas.
1. https://x.com/Tesla/status/1636085524694695939
2. https://x.com/TeslaCharging/status/1777395990766432596
Is it? This makes no real difference to my entire point, which is companies are learning that they should wait for subsidies, and will either build out much slower or not at all until they do. State governments have now set precedent for it.
It’s not even that I’m against subsidies, to be clear, but they’re becoming pro forma and they aren’t terribly well thought out on setting goals.
So they get subsidized to be built where they were going to build the chargers anyway
It’s not even that I’m against subsidies, to be clear, but they’re becoming pro forma and they aren’t terribly well thought out on setting goals.
So they get subsidized to be built where they were going to build the chargers anyway
Tesla has yet to ever produce a 1000V charging cabinet. Their v4 chargers that claim to be 1000V aren’t, because they are still driven by 400V cabinets.
Building 1000V cabinets is very very expensive, which is why Tesla is behind the curve and hasn’t done it yet.
EA cabinets are all 1000V. You are comparing apples and oranges.
And 400V is the past.
Building 1000V cabinets is very very expensive, which is why Tesla is behind the curve and hasn’t done it yet.
EA cabinets are all 1000V. You are comparing apples and oranges.
And 400V is the past.
The others don't _want_ to make chargers. They don't or want to know how.
Charging infrastructure is a public good so it ought to be the government's job to incentivize it, but Tesla's supercharger network works just as well.
Charging infrastructure is a public good so it ought to be the government's job to incentivize it, but Tesla's supercharger network works just as well.
Personally, I don't want my car company to also be the company I buy the fuel from. I'd want a marketplace of people competing to sell me fuel.
I don't want to only be able to fuel my Hyundai at Hyundai-affiliated gas stations. And it'd be bullshit if I couldn't get gas from the Ford station because I'm in a Hyundai.
I get Tesla needed to jumpstart the industry, but if its going to actually work the charging industry needs to stand on its own and not rely on the automakers making their own networks.
I don't want to only be able to fuel my Hyundai at Hyundai-affiliated gas stations. And it'd be bullshit if I couldn't get gas from the Ford station because I'm in a Hyundai.
I get Tesla needed to jumpstart the industry, but if its going to actually work the charging industry needs to stand on its own and not rely on the automakers making their own networks.
> There's a reason you don't see immigrants from all over the world coming to the US to open charging stations the way you saw them opening gas stations.
As the other commenter said, AFAIK, the majority of a gas station's income comes from the convenience store, no? Profit margins on gas are really low - Google says it's around 2%.
As the other commenter said, AFAIK, the majority of a gas station's income comes from the convenience store, no? Profit margins on gas are really low - Google says it's around 2%.
I imagine there are additional factors.
* many prime charging station locations are where the gas stations currently are. The high installation costs and long charging times mean you’d lose money swapping them 1:1 right now, and most gas stations are already optimized to hold the max pumps per spot of land.
* it is challenging to find new locations not least because cities have found out that gas stations are pretty problematic uses of land when it comes to neighborhood desirability, traffic, etc. so many are loth to approve new charging locations.
* many prime charging station locations are where the gas stations currently are. The high installation costs and long charging times mean you’d lose money swapping them 1:1 right now, and most gas stations are already optimized to hold the max pumps per spot of land.
* it is challenging to find new locations not least because cities have found out that gas stations are pretty problematic uses of land when it comes to neighborhood desirability, traffic, etc. so many are loth to approve new charging locations.
The cons of a gas station in the neighborhood are when it's a convenient store with pumps. The sale of lotto, beer, smokes, and low cost food attract it's own crowd that the NIMBYs do not like. Switch that to a storeless unmanned set of pumps, and all of that goes away. I've seen a few of these types of locations around town. Just an awning with a few pumps under it. That's pretty much what all of the electric charge locations look like. Just "rent" spots at existing places on the highway with parking nearest the main road (which is typically the least desired spots in the lot). Pretty much any hotel would be a good candidate.
Eh there are a ton of other downsides. By their nature, high-throughput charging stations with lots of curb cuts are bad for walkability, eyes on the street, etc. that people want in their neighborhoods. For example many cities now ban new drive throughs.
And the convenience stores are the thing that makes the money at gas stations.
And the convenience stores are the thing that makes the money at gas stations.
> And the convenience stores are the thing that makes the money at gas stations.
Because the gas is expensive, you need to hold inventory (and have a tank that needs to be insured and inspected and ...) and a lot of the profit is going to huge oil companies.
If you are running chargers, there is no inventory and the cost is whatever the electricty costs are.
I suspect that chargers could actually be a profit center as opposed to gas pumps which barely break even and sometimes go negative in profits.
Because the gas is expensive, you need to hold inventory (and have a tank that needs to be insured and inspected and ...) and a lot of the profit is going to huge oil companies.
If you are running chargers, there is no inventory and the cost is whatever the electricty costs are.
I suspect that chargers could actually be a profit center as opposed to gas pumps which barely break even and sometimes go negative in profits.
EV stations have a lot more competition that doesn’t need to turn a profit; a person’s home. Nobody has home gas tanks to fill up their car.
I don’t know many people buying electric without having a home charger.
I don’t know many people buying electric without having a home charger.
Literally anyone who lives in an apartment.
That's a pretty big exaggeration.
It's not easy to install your own in an apartment, but increasing numbers of apartments have chargers and most apartments could have them.
It's not easy to install your own in an apartment, but increasing numbers of apartments have chargers and most apartments could have them.
Sure, they are slowly getting added, but the incentives are pretty low. The vast majority of apartment-dwellers charge either at work (if they are lucky enough to work for a large enough company that builds chargers) or at a public charging station
that's the thing, i have a lot of friends who are in apartments, and know very few of them going fully EV
Add on to that that many gas stations make more money from going in and buying something in the store. If you stay at an EV charging station for longer, you are going to be more likely to buy something. This is a reason there are Tesla superchargers now at places like sonic in the west. Also see Buckees.
I imagine battery technology improving fast enough that it stays economically challenging to build out charging to anything like gas station level scale.
We will come to think of stopping to fill up your car routinely as quaint as lamp lighters.
We will come to think of stopping to fill up your car routinely as quaint as lamp lighters.
I would think that given the chargers are so expensive, they'd want to make them easy to pay to use.
I have a PHEV, so using a charger out and about is silly, but I've only managed to use one pay charger, and it was a lot harder than a gas pump. Even the free ones are hard to use. With the PHEV, the charged amounts are rather low, so I understand the desire to push stored value accounts, but really there should have been colaboration and portability, and at least chargers should have clear information on how to make them start. Go to some website and here's my name on the website. I've seen some that do, but many that don't.
Gas pumps aren't always easy either. I've had several cars where you have to hold it right or the pump stops, but I've never had much trouble giving them money. Also had fun when VW sent out anti-misfueling inserts for my TDI and I got to learn which diesel pumps had unleaded gasoline sized nozzles and which had leaded gasoline sized nozzles; before the insert, the car would take either, after only the leaded fuel size.
I have a PHEV, so using a charger out and about is silly, but I've only managed to use one pay charger, and it was a lot harder than a gas pump. Even the free ones are hard to use. With the PHEV, the charged amounts are rather low, so I understand the desire to push stored value accounts, but really there should have been colaboration and portability, and at least chargers should have clear information on how to make them start. Go to some website and here's my name on the website. I've seen some that do, but many that don't.
Gas pumps aren't always easy either. I've had several cars where you have to hold it right or the pump stops, but I've never had much trouble giving them money. Also had fun when VW sent out anti-misfueling inserts for my TDI and I got to learn which diesel pumps had unleaded gasoline sized nozzles and which had leaded gasoline sized nozzles; before the insert, the car would take either, after only the leaded fuel size.
Charging via application brings unnecessary friction and severely degrades UX.
Another UX offenders are QR codes on charging stalls and locking charging cables unless you will find that correct QR code so you can unlock your charging cable. Not that one, that will unlock charging cable in the stall next to you. For FFS why do I need to search for QR codes at a first place...
I can imagine a simple solution - take a cable, connect it to the car and start changing by tapping a contactless credit card reader next to your cable. But I never saw simple solutions, seems like every provider wants to torture its customers with half assed applications.
Another UX offenders are QR codes on charging stalls and locking charging cables unless you will find that correct QR code so you can unlock your charging cable. Not that one, that will unlock charging cable in the stall next to you. For FFS why do I need to search for QR codes at a first place...
I can imagine a simple solution - take a cable, connect it to the car and start changing by tapping a contactless credit card reader next to your cable. But I never saw simple solutions, seems like every provider wants to torture its customers with half assed applications.
You don't even need the contactless credit card reader. ISO 15118 is the standard for plug and charge.[1] Tesla implements it, as do most other EV manufacturers. The problem is that charging networks and manufacturers haven't settled on a way to exchange and update certificates.[2]
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118
2. https://www.theverge.com/2024/12/4/24312002/ev-plug-and-char...
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118
2. https://www.theverge.com/2024/12/4/24312002/ev-plug-and-char...
After my fair share of car being incompatible with basic CCS (Connector fits, car tells me it does not like the electricity here) I just want the charging to be working without some fancy features which charger manufacturers are going to implement wrong anyway.
I'd really like to know which cars and which networks have been the issues you've experienced.
I've seen people in BMW's and VW's pull up to an EA charger, try getting it to charge a few times, and have it fail every time. Then I see a Hyundai or a Ford pull up, and it works without issue.
I've seen people in BMW's and VW's pull up to an EA charger, try getting it to charge a few times, and have it fail every time. Then I see a Hyundai or a Ford pull up, and it works without issue.
I agree. ChargePoint has the contactless payment setup, but you need to have the Application setup with your account on it. After that it works through the Apple Wallet app.
Tesla doesn't use the ISO standard for plug&charge, they have their own custom implementation.
Before the ISO standard existed, Tesla had their own implementation of plug and charge. They've since added support for ISO 15118, allowing non-Teslas to charge at supercharging stations without using the Tesla app.[1]
The issue is that the ISO standard relies on TLS certificates, but manufacturers and charging networks have not yet agreed upon a standard set of CAs. Tesla wants to update the standard to remove the TLS requirement, which would improve reliability and time to start charging. But signed metering receipts are broken in the existing standard, so that needs to be fixed before the TLS requirement can be removed.
1. See page 3 of https://efiling.energy.ca.gov/GetDocument.aspx?tn=256283
The issue is that the ISO standard relies on TLS certificates, but manufacturers and charging networks have not yet agreed upon a standard set of CAs. Tesla wants to update the standard to remove the TLS requirement, which would improve reliability and time to start charging. But signed metering receipts are broken in the existing standard, so that needs to be fixed before the TLS requirement can be removed.
1. See page 3 of https://efiling.energy.ca.gov/GetDocument.aspx?tn=256283
Thank you! That's pretty cool. The proposed changes actually will fix this glaring omission:
> Limited Security – by only validating SECC TLS cert is from a trusted issuer, one charger’s compromised private key compromises the entire region
And I like the simplification. Instead of relying on validating contracts, the charger provider will simply rely on signed "metering receipts" from the car. Each car has its own private key (presumably in some hardware-hardened storage), and the charging network can just associate the payment details with the public key of the car.
The provider can use the receipts as a proof that the car has indeed used the charging equipment. And the receipts are sent periodically during the charging process, so the charger can terminate the session if there's a discrepancy between the station's and the car's accounting.
Nice and neat.
Edit: and this also can easily work offline. The networks can just sync the list of approved public keys to chargers with the corresponding credit balances. It'll require account setup with each network, but if you have to do it once, it's not _too_ bad.
> Limited Security – by only validating SECC TLS cert is from a trusted issuer, one charger’s compromised private key compromises the entire region
And I like the simplification. Instead of relying on validating contracts, the charger provider will simply rely on signed "metering receipts" from the car. Each car has its own private key (presumably in some hardware-hardened storage), and the charging network can just associate the payment details with the public key of the car.
The provider can use the receipts as a proof that the car has indeed used the charging equipment. And the receipts are sent periodically during the charging process, so the charger can terminate the session if there's a discrepancy between the station's and the car's accounting.
Nice and neat.
Edit: and this also can easily work offline. The networks can just sync the list of approved public keys to chargers with the corresponding credit balances. It'll require account setup with each network, but if you have to do it once, it's not _too_ bad.
FWIW, if the manufacturer does it right, it could theoretically do the sync once with your car and have it authenticate with a lot of different networks that participate in that same partnership. Otherwise, it'll just be a one-time setup the first time you charge.
For example, Ford has this "Blue Oval" network concept, so any charger network that is a part of that would trust that without necessarily needing me to associate my individual car identity.
Honestly though I'm kind of a fan of just having a credit card reader on the dispenser. Its way easier if I want to choose a different payment method for a particular charge, and honestly it is not that much additional work to plug in, tap a credit card or phone, and then it starts charging. Its adding like 10-30 seconds to a 10min+ transaction.
For example, Ford has this "Blue Oval" network concept, so any charger network that is a part of that would trust that without necessarily needing me to associate my individual car identity.
Honestly though I'm kind of a fan of just having a credit card reader on the dispenser. Its way easier if I want to choose a different payment method for a particular charge, and honestly it is not that much additional work to plug in, tap a credit card or phone, and then it starts charging. Its adding like 10-30 seconds to a 10min+ transaction.
Oh, for sure. There's a lot of possible workflows. E.g. a car can present the provider's login screen on the dashboard.
> Its way easier if I want to choose a different payment method for a particular charge, and honestly it is not that much additional work to plug in, tap a credit card or phone, and then it starts charging. Its adding like 10-30 seconds to a 10min+ transaction.
Credit card readers are a PITA, and they need connectivity. More importantly, the ISO 15118 protocol can be used with wireless charging! Imagine just parking at a designated spot, clicking "confirm" on the car dash, and walking away. The car can even align itself with the charging coils.
> Its way easier if I want to choose a different payment method for a particular charge, and honestly it is not that much additional work to plug in, tap a credit card or phone, and then it starts charging. Its adding like 10-30 seconds to a 10min+ transaction.
Credit card readers are a PITA, and they need connectivity. More importantly, the ISO 15118 protocol can be used with wireless charging! Imagine just parking at a designated spot, clicking "confirm" on the car dash, and walking away. The car can even align itself with the charging coils.
> Credit card readers are a PITA, and they need connectivity.
EVV transactions can be done offline. It depends on the issuer if it's allowed.
EVV transactions can be done offline. It depends on the issuer if it's allowed.
They do on newer chargers.
You can do this in france. Tap once to open the hatch for the port, tap when you're done to pay for what you've used.
This doesn’t seem right to me. Is this 200k per dispenser? The dispenser is really just a fancy switch and a plug in a kiosk. If you are talking about the central transformer/switching systems, then yes that makes sense. But you can add a lot of dispensers to that.
A pump is only 25k to install if you don’t include the infrastructure to support the pump (tank, canopy, fire suppression, filters, etc).all that costs more than 200k.
Let’s say 25k is the marginal cost for an extra pump. What is the marginal cost for an extra dispenser?
A pump is only 25k to install if you don’t include the infrastructure to support the pump (tank, canopy, fire suppression, filters, etc).all that costs more than 200k.
Let’s say 25k is the marginal cost for an extra pump. What is the marginal cost for an extra dispenser?
DCFCs are much more than a “fancy switch”. It’s a circuit capable of converting 3-phase high voltage AC into variable high voltage DC at 150-350kW. The power electronics are very, very expensive. As far as I’m aware, the large transformer you see usually hidden somewhere nearby is not the primary cost (although it is expensive, especially for very high wattage ones).
And yes, it’s 200k per dispenser including the infrastructure. It doesn’t scale as well as you think it does. I think Tesla has been quoted as around 50k per dispenser including infra though, so some of it is just poor efficiency in costs by other mfgs.
And yes, it’s 200k per dispenser including the infrastructure. It doesn’t scale as well as you think it does. I think Tesla has been quoted as around 50k per dispenser including infra though, so some of it is just poor efficiency in costs by other mfgs.
The fast charger is the expensive part, the dispenser is not nearly so. Just like a gas station, dispensers to chargers are many-one. I was being a bit glib when I said the dispenser is a fancy switch (esp if the lines are cooled) but only just a bit.
I see a report that has Tesla’s cost as 43k per installed dispenser. That is a fully load cost, not the marginal cost of dispenser but it is good enough.
Looking at listings for gas stations for sale (with a convenience store but no auto repair), I see about 150-300k per dispenser. That isn’t exactly apples to apples but suffice to say it isn’t exactly cheap and much closer to representing the cost than the cost of a pump (which is I assume cheaper than a dispenser).
I see a report that has Tesla’s cost as 43k per installed dispenser. That is a fully load cost, not the marginal cost of dispenser but it is good enough.
Looking at listings for gas stations for sale (with a convenience store but no auto repair), I see about 150-300k per dispenser. That isn’t exactly apples to apples but suffice to say it isn’t exactly cheap and much closer to representing the cost than the cost of a pump (which is I assume cheaper than a dispenser).
At least the Tesla implementation of their latest stuff, dispenser to faster charger ratio is 1:1. Their older design would gang 2 dispensers to a single 150kW combined charge rate, but new ones are 250kW per dispenser for each port simultaneously.
The expensive power electronics you speak of are not part of the dispenser. The dispenser is really just a very fancy switch. It performs some payment authorization and then switches on those expensive power electronics.
If you look at a modern Electrify America unit, the dispenser is an extremely slim panel with a screen. It clearly isn't big enough to contain these power electronics.
Now transformer isn't a great name because it implies an AC-to-AC device which this is not. So I can see where the confusion comes from.
If you look at a modern Electrify America unit, the dispenser is an extremely slim panel with a screen. It clearly isn't big enough to contain these power electronics.
Now transformer isn't a great name because it implies an AC-to-AC device which this is not. So I can see where the confusion comes from.
I’m not confused here, to be clear. There is a giant transformer that converts from mid voltage AC to low voltage AC at most installations. Because they draw so much power they need their own dedicated transformers. There’s sometimes (depending on the installation) a separate cabinet to convert the AC to DC and then transfers it to dispensers, though, as you say. The more modern high power ones tend to use separate cabinets, I’d agree. Older ones could take 3-phase AC directly since they’re much lower power overall.
Those older ones were just normal step-down transformers. In Europe that would often be three-phase, in the US it would normally be two-phase (J-1772 is only two-phase compatible). In that world, the "charger" (EVSE) was just a smart relay which would tell the car how much power the circuit would handle, but the actual charger was a thing in the car. That's commonly called Level 2 charging.
What is commonly talked about here are DC fast chargers, where the actual "charger" is an AC to DC cabinet on-site. Those chargers could be connected to one or many dispensers. The dispensers are the things with the cables that plug into the car, handle payment negotiation, and relay battery state to the charger in the cabinet. You could have multiple dispensers to chargers in this setup.
The technical English parlance here would be EVSE for the Level 2 chargers (the smart relay things), and dispensers for the pedestals with the cables for DC fast chargers (DCFCs).
What is commonly talked about here are DC fast chargers, where the actual "charger" is an AC to DC cabinet on-site. Those chargers could be connected to one or many dispensers. The dispensers are the things with the cables that plug into the car, handle payment negotiation, and relay battery state to the charger in the cabinet. You could have multiple dispensers to chargers in this setup.
The technical English parlance here would be EVSE for the Level 2 chargers (the smart relay things), and dispensers for the pedestals with the cables for DC fast chargers (DCFCs).
Again, not confused here. I’m talking about older stuff like the 50kW CCS/chademo systems. There’s no “older” with standard level 2 charging. Level 2 charging coexists with level 3 and will continue to coexist.
That's because the power electrics are in a big white cabinet on the side.
DCFC electrics are absolutely insane.
DCFC electrics are absolutely insane.
Exactly. I would be surprised if frankly Tesla's cost to open a decent supercharging station (6-10 stalls or something) is greater than the cost to open a 4 stall gas station.
>High speed chargers can cost >$200k installed.
>A gas pump costs about $25k installed.
These numbers seem skewed to me. I think you're quoting prices for gas pumps with just the pump, not any storage infrastructure like underground tanks, stores, employees. Then you're quoting the cost high speed chargers without any kind of electrical infrastructure to support them, which would be expensive, but more analogous to including the cost of all the other infrastructure for gas stations as well.
These numbers seem skewed to me. I think you're quoting prices for gas pumps with just the pump, not any storage infrastructure like underground tanks, stores, employees. Then you're quoting the cost high speed chargers without any kind of electrical infrastructure to support them, which would be expensive, but more analogous to including the cost of all the other infrastructure for gas stations as well.
Storage tanks are (relatively) cheap. Stores and employees are needed because margins on gasoline are extremely thin, and it's an easy way to make money if you're already putting in the pumps.
The infrastructure for high speed chargers is a lot of metal, which unlike a store, does not contribute extra money in addition to the pump.
The infrastructure for high speed chargers is a lot of metal, which unlike a store, does not contribute extra money in addition to the pump.
Since fast DC charging takes more time, there's a lot more time for a person to buy something from the store.
Gas stations depend on cycling people through quickly during rush hour. A half dozen people sitting around for half an hour at a time won't spend enough to make up the difference in volume of traffic a normal station gets, and they don't typically devote space for lounges or other amenities unless they're nice long haul truck stops.
The model doesn't have to be like for like though. Set up a restaurant instead of a convenience store (think American diner style) and offer a discount on your charge for every $10 spent, or a similar integration.
Now you have a reason for someone to sit and spend money, and likely enough as EVs hit critical mass to justify costs. There are things to work out on speed of food vs charging times, potentially a queue and valet setup - but napkin maths it seems viable.
Now you have a reason for someone to sit and spend money, and likely enough as EVs hit critical mass to justify costs. There are things to work out on speed of food vs charging times, potentially a queue and valet setup - but napkin maths it seems viable.
Tanks are cheap. Land for them, and digging, are not.
Employees are needed because most places require gas stations to be manned. Unless you're talking Bucee's they're not making much from selling a few drinks, they're just making marginal use of the building.
Employees are needed because most places require gas stations to be manned. Unless you're talking Bucee's they're not making much from selling a few drinks, they're just making marginal use of the building.
Gas stations make very little money from selling gas. The vast majority of their profits come from the building itself, to the point that if they only sold gas, they wouldn't be able to operate in most cities.
> The economics of a charging business are awful.
Ish. I mean one thing the charging business has going for it is that after the initial investment the ongoing investment is basically 0. You don't have weekly fuel shipments or any real ongoing maintenance costs.
You also don't see immigrants all over charging stations because they are mostly unmanned. Usually placed in parking lots of retail stores.
Ish. I mean one thing the charging business has going for it is that after the initial investment the ongoing investment is basically 0. You don't have weekly fuel shipments or any real ongoing maintenance costs.
You also don't see immigrants all over charging stations because they are mostly unmanned. Usually placed in parking lots of retail stores.
> I mean one thing the charging business has going for it is that after the initial investment the ongoing investment is basically 0
That's not actually correct. You need to pay for reserved power in the grid, which can be significant amount regardless if you are using that power or not. So installing big DCFC charger where nobody is going to use it will eat you up on fees for reserved power.
That's not actually correct. You need to pay for reserved power in the grid, which can be significant amount regardless if you are using that power or not. So installing big DCFC charger where nobody is going to use it will eat you up on fees for reserved power.
Any insights to what the reserved rates are? Nothing really came up on google. I could find some commercial power rates which tended to be lower than residential rates, but I assumed that's not accurate since these things will eat a lot more power than most businesses would.
> You also don't see immigrants all over charging stations because they are mostly unmanned. Usually placed in parking lots of retail stores
tf is this supposed to mean
tf is this supposed to mean
Mostly just responding to the OP
> There's a reason you don't see immigrants from all over the world coming to the US to open charging stations the way you saw them opening gas stations.
My guess is what they meant by this is the very visible minimarts on gas stations often manned by (presumed) immigrants.
> There's a reason you don't see immigrants from all over the world coming to the US to open charging stations the way you saw them opening gas stations.
My guess is what they meant by this is the very visible minimarts on gas stations often manned by (presumed) immigrants.
A gas pump relies on a significantly larger chain of infrastructure though. We just accept that it's quicker because it's already in place. No one factors in the time at the refinery etc etc.
Energy delivered in the from electricity isn't that bad or slow when you compare it fully, including the generation infrastructure.
I personally think we will move towards swappable pre-charged batteries at charging stations, which will drop the "refuel" time to something comparable to (or less than) petrol.
Energy delivered in the from electricity isn't that bad or slow when you compare it fully, including the generation infrastructure.
I personally think we will move towards swappable pre-charged batteries at charging stations, which will drop the "refuel" time to something comparable to (or less than) petrol.
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> High speed chargers can cost >$200k installed.
Should this go down as chargers become more popular due to economies of scale? Or will they always be significantly more expensive than gas pumps?
Should this go down as chargers become more popular due to economies of scale? Or will they always be significantly more expensive than gas pumps?
> The time value of a slot at a gas pump is ~$0.07 per fill up
I think charging stations have an asset that you have neglected to consider: a captive audience.
Yeah, there will always be people who plug in their car and then scroll for half an hour. But there are also people who would be interested in grabbing a bite to eat, walking around, spending money on something dumb, etc. Having a charging station be a place that you can spend money on human amenities in addition to charging improves the economics.
But instead our charging stations are like, three plugs in the back of a hotel parking lot.
I think charging stations have an asset that you have neglected to consider: a captive audience.
Yeah, there will always be people who plug in their car and then scroll for half an hour. But there are also people who would be interested in grabbing a bite to eat, walking around, spending money on something dumb, etc. Having a charging station be a place that you can spend money on human amenities in addition to charging improves the economics.
But instead our charging stations are like, three plugs in the back of a hotel parking lot.
> But instead our charging stations are like, three plugs in the back of a hotel parking lot.
It's almost as if there's an economic reason for that.
It's almost as if there's an economic reason for that.
Maybe it's a chicken-and-egg situation that needs a tipping point. If there's enough EVs on the road it becomes profitable.
> from a situation where you could just pay with cash/card for fuel to having monopolized single-brand car fueling stations?
The Model T was released in 1908 [1]. Standard Oil was broken up in 1911 [2], 6 years after Bowser added a hose attachment to his pumps [3].
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T
[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil_Co._of_New_Jers...
[3] https://www.saferack.com/evolution-gas-pump/
The Model T was released in 1908 [1]. Standard Oil was broken up in 1911 [2], 6 years after Bowser added a hose attachment to his pumps [3].
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T
[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil_Co._of_New_Jers...
[3] https://www.saferack.com/evolution-gas-pump/
Lack of ambition. Regulation solves the problem. Europe has mandated contactless payment for all chargers.
Here's a Tesla V4 charger charging a Kia with contactless payment, no Tesla account and no Tesla app:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/yflZN0dLT8s
Here's a Tesla V4 charger charging a Kia with contactless payment, no Tesla account and no Tesla app:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/yflZN0dLT8s
Because you can't DRM a liquid but you can DRM a charger. Vertical monopolies are always a good business plan when there's no regulations to prevent you from forcing people to buy your overpriced "premium certified" garbage instead of paying market rate for the same thing from a generic brand.
No laws on campaign financing. You let money rule democracy.
And now the CEO of a car company is part of the US government.
The last several times I did a DC fast charge that wasn't just plug and charge it had a credit card terminal that took chipped cards, swiped cards, and tap to pay. Plug in, tap credit card, it starts charging.
All the chargers I use regularly (Chargepoint, EVgo) support tap to pay with cards. No app or account needed.
Most new chargers now have chip/tap readers. Including Tesla's V4 chargers.
Its the same story that gasoline went through
but yeah the current situation is currently bad, let me say something louder for the entrepreneurs in the back: undermaintained last resort fast-charging is one thing, but if you have a slow-charging network I'm not downloading your app
but yeah the current situation is currently bad, let me say something louder for the entrepreneurs in the back: undermaintained last resort fast-charging is one thing, but if you have a slow-charging network I'm not downloading your app
Rivian's charging network map: https://rivian.com/experience/charging#map
They have plans to install 3,500 stations across North America, but they have a ways to go to reach that level of density.
They have plans to install 3,500 stations across North America, but they have a ways to go to reach that level of density.
the densest part of LA is so underserviced - midcity
wealthy apartment dwellers that can't charge at home, being neglected by supercharging networks that believe its a last resort for long trips
wealthy apartment dwellers that can't charge at home, being neglected by supercharging networks that believe its a last resort for long trips
With current charging times, I wonder if EV companies are considering buying up the surrounding land of their charging stations and subsequently leasing the land. Once EV becomes more mainstream/adopted, people are very likely to stay in the area for a long period.
Either stay in your vehicle, or grab a nice hot meal for an hour. Maybe vicinity of EV charging stations will revive the “strip mall”
Either stay in your vehicle, or grab a nice hot meal for an hour. Maybe vicinity of EV charging stations will revive the “strip mall”
Don't assume that present charging speeds will be the typical experience in even a five year horizon.
Hyundai's eGMP platform will get you charged up in less than 20 minutes typically. Tesla and others are a little closer to 30 minutes per charge, right now.
But that could halve in 5 years, conceivably. Are you really going to invest in land on a 10+ year time frame when the tech is still evolving?
Hyundai's eGMP platform will get you charged up in less than 20 minutes typically. Tesla and others are a little closer to 30 minutes per charge, right now.
But that could halve in 5 years, conceivably. Are you really going to invest in land on a 10+ year time frame when the tech is still evolving?
The have a charger very near to where I go in Michigan, and 30 miles from the nearest supercharger. They announced earlier this year that they would open up the RAN “near the end of the year” so I’ve been waiting for this announcement. The fact that they will only gradually modify existing chargers to work with other vehicles is a disappointment. It’s all CCS so it should just be a software update. I am really looking forward to charging my model Y at the Rivian charger. I’m guessing that that will be a long time coming now. Oh well, I guess the Red E charger gets my business for the foreseeable future. They have excellent customer service and they just upgraded the charger to be much faster.
I've only used the RAN chargers once, but IIRC, they don't really have an interface for allowing third-party transactions (i.e., paying with a credit card).
You have to register your vehicle through their app, which may also make this a bit more difficult.
You have to register your vehicle through their app, which may also make this a bit more difficult.
Hopefully they allow web-based registration of your car for plug and charge.
> It’s all CCS so it should just be a software update.
Nope.
CCS has to negotiate voltages with the attached vehicle. Unfortunately there isn't a standardized pack voltage and the range of what it can be is anywhere from 400 -> 900V.
That can mean new inverter hardware at a location to handle the varying range of voltages that come in. For a single manufacturer, it's easier as the cars and charging stations are more aligned on the supported voltages.
Nope.
CCS has to negotiate voltages with the attached vehicle. Unfortunately there isn't a standardized pack voltage and the range of what it can be is anywhere from 400 -> 900V.
That can mean new inverter hardware at a location to handle the varying range of voltages that come in. For a single manufacturer, it's easier as the cars and charging stations are more aligned on the supported voltages.
All CCS cars support 400V charging, though. Just some of them do it much more slowly compared to an 800V charger.
This is why Tesla is able to work with CCS, despite superchargers not supporting 800V.
This is why Tesla is able to work with CCS, despite superchargers not supporting 800V.
> Unfortunately there isn't a standardized pack voltage and the range of what it can be is anywhere from 400 -> 900V.
The CCS spec supports up to 1000 volts. All chargers support variable voltages.
A car's pack voltage also changes continuously across the charge curve as the battery's state of charge increases. The pack is at its lowest voltage at 0% state of charge and at its highest at 100%.
Here's an example of four cars charging, three at 400 volts and one at 800 volts. You can see how the voltage and amperage change across the charge curve:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Cil3seCHM
The CCS spec supports up to 1000 volts. All chargers support variable voltages.
A car's pack voltage also changes continuously across the charge curve as the battery's state of charge increases. The pack is at its lowest voltage at 0% state of charge and at its highest at 100%.
Here's an example of four cars charging, three at 400 volts and one at 800 volts. You can see how the voltage and amperage change across the charge curve:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Cil3seCHM
Sorry to be pedantic but there are cars on the road where the voltages go below even 300 and the Lucid Air Grand Touring is over 900 when it gets near full. So chargers actually need to be able to handle more like 200-1000.
Side note: why don’t gas stations offer charging? They’re already at good locations and they could drive business to their shops and delis.
Especially if they happen to be in a an area with no other chargers around.
Don’t even be fancy. Just buy a consumer grade charger with a 220 volt outlet and have the cashier charge $20/hour or something.
Especially if they happen to be in a an area with no other chargers around.
Don’t even be fancy. Just buy a consumer grade charger with a 220 volt outlet and have the cashier charge $20/hour or something.
Some do, but fast chargers are expensive.
L2 AC chargers like you are mentioning would be a terrible fit for a gas station because they are too slow. In my car, which has a small battery, charging for a full hour is only like a 15% charge. No one wants to hang out at a gas station for several hours, and even if they did they arent going to go into the store to buy stuff more than once most likely.
L2 AC chargers like you are mentioning would be a terrible fit for a gas station because they are too slow. In my car, which has a small battery, charging for a full hour is only like a 15% charge. No one wants to hang out at a gas station for several hours, and even if they did they arent going to go into the store to buy stuff more than once most likely.
Side topic but I’ve thought it would be cool for EV owners to offer their chargers up just for people in emergencies. Battery about to die. You could even charge a big mark up.
I’d be willing to help a poor traveler once a week or so.
Someone should make a website like that where ev owners can list themselves for emergency charging.
I’d be willing to help a poor traveler once a week or so.
Someone should make a website like that where ev owners can list themselves for emergency charging.
Plugshare.com made that about a decade ago.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a40897680/ev-public-ch...
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a40897680/ev-public-ch...
Very popular in Asian countries maybe because the EVs there are much smaller such as bikes
I think it’s cool how you can essentially gain range when the number of charger locations increases. You can go to lower and lower charge levels if you know there’s a charger every few miles.
On the flip side. When there are few chargers you could be forced to charge at 60% battery!
On the flip side. When there are few chargers you could be forced to charge at 60% battery!
Had no idea they had a charging network, but does it really matter? Tesla is so far away ahead of everyone else that I cannot see anyone catching up. Even if they stop making cars Tesla can keep making money off their charging network.
I had no idea that Rivian had a charging network and they build them like an hour from where I live so I see them all over the place. I just assumed they used the Tesla ones or the generic ones you see all over.
They do (mis)use the Tesla ones. I don’t expect this announcement means literally anything to any EV brand.
They are using them correctly. That is how Tesla tells Rivian owners to use them. Tesla is updating their chargers with a longer cable to make this less of a problem over time.
3,500 new locations is helpful for all EV owners (and brands)
in what sense do they misuse them?
They take up 2 spots: https://www.reddit.com/r/Rivian/comments/1f0wt4v/okay_is_the...
Apparently that's the recommended way from Tesla to do it, per that thread. Do they not make extension cords you can use with the charger cables so you charge from other angles?
No, they don’t. Extension cables for something that is dumping 250kW would be dangerous, or outrageously expensive and bulky.
Tesla is rolling out stations with longer cables. Supposedly, there will be more long cable V4 supercharging stations than the older short cable version in 18 months.
https://insideevs.com/news/742106/tesla-supercharger-longer-...
https://electrek.co/2024/11/27/tesla-adds-longer-cables-and-...
https://insideevs.com/news/742106/tesla-supercharger-longer-...
https://electrek.co/2024/11/27/tesla-adds-longer-cables-and-...
A2Z has announced an extension cord, but tbh it sounds like a bad idea: https://a2zevshop.com/products/dc-nacs-extension-cord-6-9-ft...
That's a lot of power through an air cooled cable.
That's a lot of power through an air cooled cable.
That's a straightforward failure of charger design. Tesla's cables are too short.
The V4 chargers have longer cables and solve the problem.
The V4 chargers have longer cables and solve the problem.
How are they supposed to use them?
Phased rollout, yes? I heard chatter about this on the Lightning forum earlier today and the comments said it was currently just a single site available to us.
How has the US already mucked this up so badly? Just enforce common charger standard like the EU
I wonder why did they didnt consider doing this right from the start!
Cool feature: The Rivian R1T and R1S are equipped with a "Tank Turn" feature, allowing the vehicle to rotate 360 degrees in place by spinning the left and right wheels in opposite directions.
This was a demo they did in a video but it's not available to anyone who actually owns one of these. I believe the EV Mercedes G Wagon does have it as a feature though.
Could you edit your comment? This is incorrect. It was a demo, but they chose not to do it because it does so much damage to ground surface, and their vehicles are intended to be used in places like national parks where that matters a lot.
Seems like I can not edit it. Sorry
Very neat! I bet it isn't good for the tires though haha.
The Mercedes G implementation of this specifically called out not to use this feature on pavement :)
92 locations
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Has anyone does a trade-in value for these EVs?
The depreciation of these EV vehicles are crazy...
The depreciation of these EV vehicles are crazy...
People say that, but just like with other cars, it is very vehicle, timing, and trim dependent. The Rivians seem to be doing ok. Even a lot of Teslas are doing ok, not great.
Those Model Ys that people bought for ~70k a couple of years ago? Those are makin' some headlines.
Those Model Ys that people bought for ~70k a couple of years ago? Those are makin' some headlines.
The real deal today is to buy an EV second hand, not to sell it.
There’s still so much fear on how long the battery will hold up, however all statistics are pointing at > 80% capacity for 10 years old / 200,000 miles.
Expectations for replacement costs in 2026-2027 are around $40/kWh, which will be around $3000 for replacing the typical Tesla battery.
There’s still so much fear on how long the battery will hold up, however all statistics are pointing at > 80% capacity for 10 years old / 200,000 miles.
Expectations for replacement costs in 2026-2027 are around $40/kWh, which will be around $3000 for replacing the typical Tesla battery.
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Speaking from the other side, I got an EV (Ioniq 5) ~$10,000 off with ~15k miles on it.
bonkers that EVs are known to depend on child labor/slave labor in the DRC to the order of 2kg/5lbs of cobalt PER EV, and people think it's cool to drive them around.
When I see them, I think of how broken-hearted I would be for my three year old kid if she were 'employed' in the slave labor industry of cobalt mining in the drc.
some EV batteries don't consume cobalt, I concede, but the industry and market and trade and slavery still is created and sustained by the EV industry. I could never.
I propose that you consider adding a >125cc scooter to your mobility toolkit. It's a convivial vehicle class.
When I see them, I think of how broken-hearted I would be for my three year old kid if she were 'employed' in the slave labor industry of cobalt mining in the drc.
some EV batteries don't consume cobalt, I concede, but the industry and market and trade and slavery still is created and sustained by the EV industry. I could never.
I propose that you consider adding a >125cc scooter to your mobility toolkit. It's a convivial vehicle class.
Bonkers that the climate change fueled by fossil fuels is leading to children starving to death due to changing weather patterns, more extreme droughts, and my god how many children and adults will live and die in agony as it really kicks in and global mass migrations for survival truly develop, I could never.
This was written as someone that drives a gas powered car. Your comment reads like a meme being seeded on the internet by oil companies to muddy support for a transition away from fossil fuels.
This was written as someone that drives a gas powered car. Your comment reads like a meme being seeded on the internet by oil companies to muddy support for a transition away from fossil fuels.
I don't drive an EV but devils advocate is pretty easy here:
Bonkers that ICE's are known to contribute to climate change globally and cause air quality issues at a local level, and people think it's cool to drive them around.
You're broken hearted for your hypothetical 3 year old in a hypothetical mine, but you don't see a problem with the same hypothetical 3 year old growing up in a world without clean air, with increasingly extreme weather events?
Bonkers that ICE's are known to contribute to climate change globally and cause air quality issues at a local level, and people think it's cool to drive them around.
You're broken hearted for your hypothetical 3 year old in a hypothetical mine, but you don't see a problem with the same hypothetical 3 year old growing up in a world without clean air, with increasingly extreme weather events?
I applaud the effort to expand charging across the nation as this will inevitably increase the comfort level of the average joe on the fence with range anxiety.
The elephant in the room that nobody is talking about is the connector.
There are SEVEN different competing charging connector types in North America. if i dont have an adapter, im either screwed into spending 3 hours at a charging station or im calling a tow truck. Until the USA adopts a reasonable national standard then all this electric car futurism is just branded nonsense and patent profiteering.
ICE automobiles have TWO standards for fuel, regular pump, and hi-flo nozzles with a wider diameter built to fit commercial trucks. they are free to use.
The elephant in the room that nobody is talking about is the connector.
There are SEVEN different competing charging connector types in North America. if i dont have an adapter, im either screwed into spending 3 hours at a charging station or im calling a tow truck. Until the USA adopts a reasonable national standard then all this electric car futurism is just branded nonsense and patent profiteering.
ICE automobiles have TWO standards for fuel, regular pump, and hi-flo nozzles with a wider diameter built to fit commercial trucks. they are free to use.
What are the 7?
In my experience, the two that really matter are J1772/CCS1 and NACS (Tesla). There's a scattering of CHADeMO, but I haven't yet seen a Level 3 DC charger that has CHADeMO only - the cabinet also has a CCS1 plug.
Most (all?) manufacturers will be moving to NACS in the next few years. Luckily, J1772/CCS1 and NACS are protocol-level compatible, so adaptors are relatively cheap and easy to make.
The remaining incompatibilities are commercial/business decisions (e.g. Telsa opening up the Supercharger network to other manufacturers).
EDIT to clarify: I'm combining J1772 and CCS1 because there aren't any cars that have one but not the other. CCS1 starts with J1772 and adds a couple extra pins for DC fast charging (Level 3).
In my experience, the two that really matter are J1772/CCS1 and NACS (Tesla). There's a scattering of CHADeMO, but I haven't yet seen a Level 3 DC charger that has CHADeMO only - the cabinet also has a CCS1 plug.
Most (all?) manufacturers will be moving to NACS in the next few years. Luckily, J1772/CCS1 and NACS are protocol-level compatible, so adaptors are relatively cheap and easy to make.
The remaining incompatibilities are commercial/business decisions (e.g. Telsa opening up the Supercharger network to other manufacturers).
EDIT to clarify: I'm combining J1772 and CCS1 because there aren't any cars that have one but not the other. CCS1 starts with J1772 and adds a couple extra pins for DC fast charging (Level 3).
I'm guessing that 7 comes from splitting J1772 from CCS1. It sort of makes sense, I guess. There are even a few EVs with J1772 but not CCS1 (eg, the early Chevrolet Bolt without the DCFC option).
I agree with you, though. Splitting it out is weird at this point. It'd be a bit like pointing at all the different grades of gasoline and saying filling gas cars is hard. 87 octane, 89 octane, 92 octane, e-85 (try explaining the difference between the 85% ethanol and octane to people for some real fun), race gas, 100LL, ethanol free in several octanes. And that's not even getting into oil viscosities. Of course, the real world isn't hard at all.
EV standards aren't really hard in the real world either, though there is a little learning curve.
I agree with you, though. Splitting it out is weird at this point. It'd be a bit like pointing at all the different grades of gasoline and saying filling gas cars is hard. 87 octane, 89 octane, 92 octane, e-85 (try explaining the difference between the 85% ethanol and octane to people for some real fun), race gas, 100LL, ethanol free in several octanes. And that's not even getting into oil viscosities. Of course, the real world isn't hard at all.
EV standards aren't really hard in the real world either, though there is a little learning curve.
There are many plug in vehicles with J1772 and nothing else. See: almost any PHEV. Lol.
if i dont have an adapter, im either screwed into spending 3 hours at a charging station or im calling a tow truck
Found the commenter that’s never actually owned an EV. 13 years of EV ownership and numerous road trips, and your hypotheticals have never happened to me. Yes, you’re technically correct, said by some to be the worst kind of correct. Because in day-to-day reality, there are basically two kinds of connector types.
Though if your day job, as listed in your profile, is changing brake pads, I could see how you don’t have a lot of contact with EVs. :-)
Found the commenter that’s never actually owned an EV. 13 years of EV ownership and numerous road trips, and your hypotheticals have never happened to me. Yes, you’re technically correct, said by some to be the worst kind of correct. Because in day-to-day reality, there are basically two kinds of connector types.
Though if your day job, as listed in your profile, is changing brake pads, I could see how you don’t have a lot of contact with EVs. :-)
They're technically correct in the same sense that there are more than 2 mobile operating systems.
Or maybe it's kind of like there were more than 4 different plugs for mobile phones to charger (lightning for apple, several variants of USB, some weirdo proprietary, then usb-c). A lot of people like me have 3 there way splitters (micro-usb, lightning, usb-c), so I can charge any phone.
The world is switching to usb-c finally
The world is switching to usb-c finally
There's only 3 plug formats that matter. J1772 for AC charging, the Tesla plug (called NACS), and CCS, the other main standard. It may look messy but it's trivial in practice, once you can use superchargers.
Once you have access to superchargers you can just drive. I've driven across the country 3 times in a Tesla, now I have a different EV with a CCS plug and access to superchargers with an adapter, I'm free to go where I want.
Once you have access to superchargers you can just drive. I've driven across the country 3 times in a Tesla, now I have a different EV with a CCS plug and access to superchargers with an adapter, I'm free to go where I want.
It's not only the plug shape though, it's also the language the plug speaks. Newer Tesla chargers (I think supercharger v3 and up) will be able to talk CCS over the NACS connector for wide compatibility, but the older ones will look the same and only charge a Tesla because they don't communicate with CCS.
That "old superchargers don't work with CCS" is true yet it's not really a problem. First, the software sites that show you chargers know about the different versions. Tesla and even Rivian show you only the superchargers you can use.
The old superchargers (called v2) used the original protocol (CANbus) which is different than CCS's protocol. Newer Tesla superchargers speak the original proto and the ccs wire protocol. All new chargers uses the new protocol. Tesla is slowly replacing their chargers as they age out. At the same time this transition helps reserve a few chargers for teslas (the older v2 ones).
What this means is you use your incar app or a phone app to find chargers, and you only see the ones that you can use. This works for Rivian, Tesla, but also GM and Ford. It's a messy issue for sure, but it's turns out not to be an issue.
The old superchargers (called v2) used the original protocol (CANbus) which is different than CCS's protocol. Newer Tesla superchargers speak the original proto and the ccs wire protocol. All new chargers uses the new protocol. Tesla is slowly replacing their chargers as they age out. At the same time this transition helps reserve a few chargers for teslas (the older v2 ones).
What this means is you use your incar app or a phone app to find chargers, and you only see the ones that you can use. This works for Rivian, Tesla, but also GM and Ford. It's a messy issue for sure, but it's turns out not to be an issue.
Everyone's car already knows what chargers they can use. The card doesn't route you to incompatible chargers. This is a solved problem. It sounds like you just don't have an EV.
I'm aware of that, thanks.
It's more a note for any apartment dwellers thinking "I see Tesla chargers all over town, I could buy a 2025 Equinox (or whatever) with NACS and swing through the one on next to my office when I need to. If it's a v3 or v4 that's true, if it's an older station it's still only for Teslas.
So if you buy a new EV thinking "I know where the nearest Tesla chargers are" you could be in for some disappointment. Check the map first: https://www.tesla.com/findus?filters=nacs_superchargers
It's a worse problem in some areas than others. For example, all 9 supercharger locations in South Dakota are Tesla Exclusive.
It's more a note for any apartment dwellers thinking "I see Tesla chargers all over town, I could buy a 2025 Equinox (or whatever) with NACS and swing through the one on next to my office when I need to. If it's a v3 or v4 that's true, if it's an older station it's still only for Teslas.
So if you buy a new EV thinking "I know where the nearest Tesla chargers are" you could be in for some disappointment. Check the map first: https://www.tesla.com/findus?filters=nacs_superchargers
It's a worse problem in some areas than others. For example, all 9 supercharger locations in South Dakota are Tesla Exclusive.
Anyone buying an EV learns this in like five minutes before they buy, honestly.
I think you're overestimating normal car buyers, as EVs continue to shift from early adopter novelties into the mass market. People will see a charger and expect to be able to pull up and charge there, like they've been doing with gas stations for decades.
SAE is thankfully working on universal plug and charge standards which will be a huge help for the other problem - the mess of different apps for each charging network. Because just providing a credit card reader like every gas pump ever was too hard.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/sae-industry-techno...
SAE is thankfully working on universal plug and charge standards which will be a huge help for the other problem - the mess of different apps for each charging network. Because just providing a credit card reader like every gas pump ever was too hard.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/sae-industry-techno...
Yeah the V2s are also slow enough most people wouldn't want to use them anyway. They are already drastically outnumbered too.
Seven? No, there's really just CCS/J1772 and NACS. And those are protocol-compatible, just the pins are different. Some stations now conveniently have adapters right there too. Your portrayal of charging in NA is not accurate.
In practice there are only three: NACS (currently only at Tesla stations); CCS (everywhere that isn't Tesla), and J1772 (destination charging).
NACS is the industry consensus on the one true North American plug to rule them all going forward.
CHAdeMO is completely dead -- you'll sometimes see them, but they're being kept on life support if not outright decommissioned.
NACS is the industry consensus on the one true North American plug to rule them all going forward.
CHAdeMO is completely dead -- you'll sometimes see them, but they're being kept on life support if not outright decommissioned.
In practical terms, CCS and J1772 are the same standard, in the sense that 2 prong and 3 prong US power plugs are the same standard, since receiving plugs support both.
I do still see CHAdeMO at a lot of EA and EVgo stations (I usually charge at home, so my charging station experience is mostly limited to road trips)
I do still see CHAdeMO at a lot of EA and EVgo stations (I usually charge at home, so my charging station experience is mostly limited to road trips)
Around here EA's upgrading to CCS-only stations. The older non-upgraded stations only have a single CHAdeMO plug that is usually out of order because it's on very old hardware.
> NACS (currently only at Tesla stations)
The J3400 plug is already deployed by other charge point operators. ChargePoint had J3400 plugs on their chargers 6 months ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3-0xRTduPI
The J3400 plug is already deployed by other charge point operators. ChargePoint had J3400 plugs on their chargers 6 months ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3-0xRTduPI
There are still in the neighborhood of 190,000 Leafs in the U.S.
For better or for worse, the charging networks have generally agreed that the aging Leaf population isn't worth supporting.
(Which makes it absolute lunacy that Nissan is still selling the Leaf)
(Which makes it absolute lunacy that Nissan is still selling the Leaf)
Especially when they apparently have a replacement platform that is perfectly adequate (Ariya).
This is not at all accurate. There have only ever been 3 DC Fast Charging connectors in use in North America. CCS1, Tesla's and Chademo. Chademo was only really used on a couple of cars and most popularly on the Nissan Leaf. Chademo is effectively dead in the US. Which leaves CCS1 and Tesla/NACS/J3400 (which is all the same thing.) All manufacturers are migrating to Tesla's plug. This will take time as it's not a trivial change. Any EV driver is well served to carry an adapter, but it's not totally necessary. My BMW EV does not have accesd to Tesla's supercharging network (so no need for an adapter) and I have driven over 50k miles in the last 18 months on road trips all over the US.
Please stop spreading misinformation.
Please stop spreading misinformation.
The US did just adopt a Federal EV charging connector. [1]
Hint: it’s Tesla’s NACS
1 : https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/teslas-nacs-set-to-become-o...
Hint: it’s Tesla’s NACS
1 : https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/teslas-nacs-set-to-become-o...
Isn’t adoption of NACS supposed to be the solution here?
Virtually every EV sold today is one of 2 standards.
And adapters for the other standard are <$200, and don't take up that much space in a trunk.
In the event I'm ever truly stranded, I do have a Level 1 charger I keep in my car so that all I need is a 110v outlet. Since my car (EV6) supports V2L and has an internal 110v outlet, I could also use it to help another stranded EV. Not fast, but it is a lifeline.
Half way through your comment I got worried you were about to claim you could charge your EV off its own internal outlet. No joke, I’ve seen many people on car forums saying EV companies are idiots for not making them self charging.
Rivian started before the plan to use superchargers was even envisioned, so today some of those holes that Rivian was filling aren't so important because tesla superchargers are nearby.
Rivian has done a great job keeping their chargers working, have the software be reliable, just running a good service. Many and maybe most DCFC charger networks (DCFC meaning high power CCS chargers not including Tesla superchargers) really have struggled to match the uptime and reliability tesla SC. Tesla's magic ability it: (1) fix them when they break, quickly. (2) don't just build 4 chargers in a spot, it's almost the same cost to build 8 or 10. (3) string them together along main travel routes to make it possible to travel.
The entire rest of the the charging industry basically fails at those 3 things. Most of them can't manage to fix a broken charger, sometimes in months. One major reason is they often don't have standardized hardware so there might not be a spare hardware to fix something there.