Emotional support across adulthood: A 60-year study of men’s social networks(psypost.org)
psypost.org
Emotional support across adulthood: A 60-year study of men’s social networks
https://www.psypost.org/men-lose-half-their-emotional-support-networks-between-30-and-90-decades-long-study-finds/
188 comments
This is sadly true, my long term partner left me last night. I really thought it would go the distance, and I’m almost not sad - it’s just typical
Hope you do something kind for yourself to feel better <3
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> And if she leaves me, it's because I failed in some way or another
With all due respect, chances are this view won't be helpful in the long run. It's challenging enough to influence our own minds or predict with certainty what journeys they'll embark on, let alone assume we can be responsible for another person's happiness.
With all due respect, chances are this view won't be helpful in the long run. It's challenging enough to influence our own minds or predict with certainty what journeys they'll embark on, let alone assume we can be responsible for another person's happiness.
I don't mean I failed to make her happy. I mean I failed in asserting myself or sacrificing my happiness for her. As her happiness generally feeds of mine.
This is how I feel, I sacrificed a lot of my sanity and happiness to support them, and the spotlight was always on me as I was sad and stressed in the end.
I think going forward I will always put myself first
I think going forward I will always put myself first
i hear you. here is what i came up with as a good way to put it: i can't be expected to take care of my family and my kids if i am not well myself. people (especially in china) tell me (and others) that parents need to sacrifice their own well being for their children, and my response is, if i give up my own well being then my children will suffer. they say, i need to be strong for them and for my partner. but i can only be strong if i am healthy. if you like a metaphor: on an airplane they always tell you to put your own oxygen mask on before helping others. that's what this is. i keep myself healthy, to get the energy i need to be strong for my family.
I've heard it phrased as "put on your own oxygen mask first."
I like that phrasing as it doesn't sound selfish in that context and most people can immediately understand why it's necessary.
I like that phrasing as it doesn't sound selfish in that context and most people can immediately understand why it's necessary.
breaker-kind(1)
> Vs if she's happy her mood might change on a whim due to period or other things
What a weird point of view. I assume that asking your SO if they’re upset because she’s on her period, you might start to have a good idea of why your SO isn’t happy.
I’d rather be the person I want to be in a relationship, than play weird games about whose happiness matters more, like it’s a competition. But you do you.
What a weird point of view. I assume that asking your SO if they’re upset because she’s on her period, you might start to have a good idea of why your SO isn’t happy.
I’d rather be the person I want to be in a relationship, than play weird games about whose happiness matters more, like it’s a competition. But you do you.
Its not a game; It's a fact. The definition of hormonal is related to menstruation. I also didn't say I asked if she was, just something I consider when responding to her actions or words.
Well for me, half of 0 is still 0 and I'm not even 30 yet.
> My long term partner loves me conditionally (and don’t let anyone fool you into thinking that this is abnormal).
I haven't told anyone but a therapist the abuse I've been facing from a partner because it would break my parents heart. I've been back-stabbed now 3 times from different people I was closest with relationship or friendship-wise over the past decade (because you're right it's conditional).
I honestly don't see how informing friends and family around me that I've been physically attacked many times, forced to wipe all evidence, hunted down, de-escalated 20 bloodcurdling screaming panic attack episodes, stop 2 of their suicide attempts, lied to at every turn, was cheated on, and then abandoned (BPD & drug abuse). I should make the people around me share in how awful I feel? That won't resolve anything, just like the therapist that can't change it.
> My long term partner loves me conditionally (and don’t let anyone fool you into thinking that this is abnormal).
I haven't told anyone but a therapist the abuse I've been facing from a partner because it would break my parents heart. I've been back-stabbed now 3 times from different people I was closest with relationship or friendship-wise over the past decade (because you're right it's conditional).
I honestly don't see how informing friends and family around me that I've been physically attacked many times, forced to wipe all evidence, hunted down, de-escalated 20 bloodcurdling screaming panic attack episodes, stop 2 of their suicide attempts, lied to at every turn, was cheated on, and then abandoned (BPD & drug abuse). I should make the people around me share in how awful I feel? That won't resolve anything, just like the therapist that can't change it.
FWIW, much value in talking about intense and traumatic experiences is in discovering that you're not alone in general, and often not even alone among your peers. Life can indeed go pretty smoothly for some people, at least for long stretches of time, but many more people than you might realize have experienced the kinds of things you describe.
Being open about it helps each of you spot the other amidst the crowd, provide a sense of community and comraderie that it sounds like you might be lacking. Not only do you both (et al) get helped by it, the experience of helping them can often provide yet another inspiration for feeling less burdened and alone.
Maybe look up some intimate group talk opportunities. These could be informal men's groups, therapy- or church- mediated groups, or 12-step groups (like maybe CODA, in your case). These are almost always private opportunities to achieve what I mention above, where nobody outside the group is going to hear a whiff of what you share, and many of them are free or reasonably priced. And they're lurking all over the place. If you're feeling as defeated and hopeless as you sound, it could make a difference.
Being open about it helps each of you spot the other amidst the crowd, provide a sense of community and comraderie that it sounds like you might be lacking. Not only do you both (et al) get helped by it, the experience of helping them can often provide yet another inspiration for feeling less burdened and alone.
Maybe look up some intimate group talk opportunities. These could be informal men's groups, therapy- or church- mediated groups, or 12-step groups (like maybe CODA, in your case). These are almost always private opportunities to achieve what I mention above, where nobody outside the group is going to hear a whiff of what you share, and many of them are free or reasonably priced. And they're lurking all over the place. If you're feeling as defeated and hopeless as you sound, it could make a difference.
For many people telling the stories is a form of processing them, or processing their experiences in different ways than they have before.
> My long term partner loves me conditionally
Sounds right, relationships require effort to stay healthy. It's not always an easy dance, as veterans of marriage will attest.
No healthy relationship should be a cage containing 2 or more martyrs. If people are accumulating resentment, it's time to seek help or dialogue or renegotiation.
That said, it's a mark of mature introspection and humility to be able to ask for help and support. It's also a mark of maturity and kindness to give help and support.
Sounds right, relationships require effort to stay healthy. It's not always an easy dance, as veterans of marriage will attest.
No healthy relationship should be a cage containing 2 or more martyrs. If people are accumulating resentment, it's time to seek help or dialogue or renegotiation.
That said, it's a mark of mature introspection and humility to be able to ask for help and support. It's also a mark of maturity and kindness to give help and support.
> My long term partner loves me conditionally
I've come to learn the only unconditional love is that between parent-child
I've come to learn the only unconditional love is that between parent-child
Some people come to learn that it can be quite conditional between parent and child as well.
And only some at that. Mine only "loved" me if it made them look good.
The number of parents I have seen disinherit their children for something that literally is equivalent (and actually once was) "when they moved out when they were 18 they didn't clean up their room enough" is in the dozens, there's no such thing as unconditional anything in this world.
Even that can be conditional. Parents deliberately remove themselves from their children's lives sometimes for various reasons. Child is gay/trans or othered in some other way. Child commits some serious crime, etc.
It could also be the parent is too much of a mess(drug addict, etc) that they can't love their child.
It could also be the parent is too much of a mess(drug addict, etc) that they can't love their child.
Maybe only parent-child can be unconditional, but it doesn't imply ALL parent-child love is unconditional though
Loving is the easiest part of having a healthy relationship.
Love can be unconditional where a relationship shouldn't be.
I think parents love you conditionally true. In the end if you turn into a really bad person, they might not love you anymore.
That's not bad though. If I stop talking to my partner, I suspect at some point they wouldn't want to stay with me anymore. If I attacked my parents repeatedly, same goes for them
That's not bad though. If I stop talking to my partner, I suspect at some point they wouldn't want to stay with me anymore. If I attacked my parents repeatedly, same goes for them
>My long term partner loves me conditionally (and don’t let anyone fool you into thinking that this is abnormal)
>Only your parents might love you unconditionally
I may be nitpicking here, but I find all love is conditional. The difference lies in how easy or difficult it is to meet those conditions.
>Only your parents might love you unconditionally
I may be nitpicking here, but I find all love is conditional. The difference lies in how easy or difficult it is to meet those conditions.
Being loved conditionally by your partner is OK, as long at the conditions are those that you are willing to fulfill out of free choice.
Being loved conditional has a very thin line to coercive control, though, and this gets easily into abusive territory.
Being loved conditional has a very thin line to coercive control, though, and this gets easily into abusive territory.
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Why would you even want unconditional love? Are you planning on abusing and taking advantage of your spouse? People who want this are not ready for marriage.
Maybe I want to be vulnerable sometimes, or weak sometimes, or to have unfinished opinions on things and be listened to in good faith without risking an entire relationship because I would like to talk about it.
Like privacy, people can come up with nice catch-alls like “nothing to hide”, but the default is not abuse.
Like privacy, people can come up with nice catch-alls like “nothing to hide”, but the default is not abuse.
this. unconditional love is not blind love. but it means that i am not being needlessly criticized for my faults but receive care and encouragement to work on them. it means that i am treated with compassion, even if i am a criminal. it doesn't mean that i get a free pass to do whatever i want. if i hurt someone, i need to fix that, especially if it is my partner.
and the same goes in reverse. i love my wife and only wish the best for her. but that does not mean i need to be blind to her problems, or not expect her to stop doing things that hurt me or others. but it does mean that my love for her does not stop even if we should separate.
however, this assumes a different kind of love than the love that most people think they have for their partner. a kind of love that is exclusive and can only ever go to one person. unconditional love is the kind of love that accepts everyone for what they are. the kind of love that all the major religions out there are talking about.
(edit: expanded further)
and the same goes in reverse. i love my wife and only wish the best for her. but that does not mean i need to be blind to her problems, or not expect her to stop doing things that hurt me or others. but it does mean that my love for her does not stop even if we should separate.
however, this assumes a different kind of love than the love that most people think they have for their partner. a kind of love that is exclusive and can only ever go to one person. unconditional love is the kind of love that accepts everyone for what they are. the kind of love that all the major religions out there are talking about.
(edit: expanded further)
This goes way beyond merely conditional love. If you can't reasonably expect to be listened to in good faith, you have an outright toxic relationship.
Depending on the topic, almost no relationships meet your definition of ‘non-toxic’ in my experience. And I’ve had a lot of experience.
>Depending on the topic
In the sense that there might be something you could say to tank a relationship? Sure. But that's a far cry not generally being able to express "unfinished opinions" or any vulnerability, as the original commenter said.
In the sense that there might be something you could say to tank a relationship? Sure. But that's a far cry not generally being able to express "unfinished opinions" or any vulnerability, as the original commenter said.
You can have that with conditional love. It sounds like your marriage is just bad
Unconditional love is not the same as unconditional trust or unconditional relationship.
You can leave someone you still love, if they did not meet what you desire out of the relationship. That would still be unconditional love.
But with unconditional love, leaving someone is to heal yourself, not to punish the other person.
You can leave someone you still love, if they did not meet what you desire out of the relationship. That would still be unconditional love.
But with unconditional love, leaving someone is to heal yourself, not to punish the other person.
"Emotional support networks among men shrink by 50% between the ages of 30 and 90, reflecting an average decrease from two to one emotional support providers"
Or, to rephrase,
"Men grow up with an average of two emotional support providers and lose one in mid to late adulthood"
Or, to rephrase,
"Men grow up with an average of two emotional support providers and lose one in mid to late adulthood"
Is this to be interpreted as most men have two parents, and in adulthood one of them dies?
Or, men have a parent they are close with plus a spouse, and then the parent dies?
Or, men have a parent they are close with plus a spouse, and then the parent dies?
I interpreted it as the latter being the most common pattern. I'm sure it differs fairly widely though.
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Any idea how many women have?
The form of this study was specific to men and very long-running, so I don't know where you'd get comparable data. Still, it would be interesting to take a stab at it. Is it 2? 1? 10?
The form of this study was specific to men and very long-running, so I don't know where you'd get comparable data. Still, it would be interesting to take a stab at it. Is it 2? 1? 10?
Unlike men, women tend seek out emotional support networks as a matter of course. There's probably some reduction as they age, but it's probably from like, the entire glee club to their husband, kids, five or six girls they keep up with from high school and the neighbor lady. A particularly gregarious woman like my wife can grow her support network. This is definitely an area meriting more research.
As a trans women, I have a unique perspective on how gender impacts social relations having lived life in each of the two worlds.
Like commenters above mention, emotional support is table stakes in friendship among women. It is a kinder, gentler world - the kind of world you perhaps remember growing up in. That world still exists, but it's typically not accessible to men once they reach adulthood.
How could men access the world of emotional support? By disassociating the idea of gender and emotional support. Growing up in the 90s and 2000s, I remember emotional vulnerability being associated with homosexuality - it was "gay" for men to be emotionally vulnerable with eachother, typically leaving men with women[spouses] or family members as their only source of emotional support. The way out is decouple these two things, to un-"gay" emotional vulnerability between men.
What does it look like? Checking in on friends, learning to open up yourself, increasing emotional intelligence, learning how to hold space and reflectively listen. Not trying to solve people's problems when what they want is to be heard. All of these skills and norms exist within feminine spaces as a matter of course and when folks say "putting in the work" it means learning to employ these things.
It means that being emotionally vulnerable doesn't imply a sexual advancement. It means enforcing that as a reality.
Like commenters above mention, emotional support is table stakes in friendship among women. It is a kinder, gentler world - the kind of world you perhaps remember growing up in. That world still exists, but it's typically not accessible to men once they reach adulthood.
How could men access the world of emotional support? By disassociating the idea of gender and emotional support. Growing up in the 90s and 2000s, I remember emotional vulnerability being associated with homosexuality - it was "gay" for men to be emotionally vulnerable with eachother, typically leaving men with women[spouses] or family members as their only source of emotional support. The way out is decouple these two things, to un-"gay" emotional vulnerability between men.
What does it look like? Checking in on friends, learning to open up yourself, increasing emotional intelligence, learning how to hold space and reflectively listen. Not trying to solve people's problems when what they want is to be heard. All of these skills and norms exist within feminine spaces as a matter of course and when folks say "putting in the work" it means learning to employ these things.
It means that being emotionally vulnerable doesn't imply a sexual advancement. It means enforcing that as a reality.
Personally, I’ve also seen those emotional support networks used to destroy and manipulate women within them by other women within them.
And to target the men ‘attached’ through the women within those networks.
Under the guise of emotional support.
And to target the men ‘attached’ through the women within those networks.
Under the guise of emotional support.
Setting healthy boundaries is usually the antidote to manipulation and sometimes that entails no longer engaging with that person or group.
I'm curious to hear more about your story. It sounds full of valuable lessons.
I'm curious to hear more about your story. It sounds full of valuable lessons.
The challenge I’ve seen, is women’s groups tend to not have/allow boundaries. At least in a ‘you can’t say no’ type of way. Lying/hiding stuff is of course pervasive, as a defense. It’s a really common pattern. ‘Mean girls’, ‘gossip group’, etc.
In many, it’s typical to discuss everything from the sex habits of them and their partners (in excruciating detail), their own and others affairs, to every embarrassing detail of their kids lives. It often seems to be a competition to see who can get the most exciting ‘tea’ out of each other.
In my experience, having indirectly seen/overheard many of these discussions, most men would be horrified if they knew what was really going on.
It happens in some men’s groups, but is much, much rarer.
As for my story - I’ve seen quite a few.
Office politics where a senior woman leader was essentially running a ‘sex for leverage’ campaign against all the men (and a couple women) in the group, using the women in the group as ‘bait’.
A church where the pastor got convicted of child molestation, but where the community insisted he be forgiven (after getting out), and he was indeed reinstated - while another part of the congregation had their entire family driven from the group (and harassed socially in the community for years) because the father divorced his spouse because of infidelity and physically abusive behaviors.
Oh, and the classic ‘ex wives club’ stalking and harassing an ex, and any new wife - and manipulating her into ruining herself and joining the club.
I’ve seen all these play out first hand, and they are just a drop in the bucket. I’ve ceased to be amazed at the cruelty often demonstrated.
Abusive men tend to work a bit differently, so their setups often look more directly hierarchical and have less information sharing going on. They tend to operate more off secrecy and/or threats of explicit violence, than manipulation.
But I’ve seen a few (rare) instances of similar setups. People can be awesome. People can be terrible.
In many, it’s typical to discuss everything from the sex habits of them and their partners (in excruciating detail), their own and others affairs, to every embarrassing detail of their kids lives. It often seems to be a competition to see who can get the most exciting ‘tea’ out of each other.
In my experience, having indirectly seen/overheard many of these discussions, most men would be horrified if they knew what was really going on.
It happens in some men’s groups, but is much, much rarer.
As for my story - I’ve seen quite a few.
Office politics where a senior woman leader was essentially running a ‘sex for leverage’ campaign against all the men (and a couple women) in the group, using the women in the group as ‘bait’.
A church where the pastor got convicted of child molestation, but where the community insisted he be forgiven (after getting out), and he was indeed reinstated - while another part of the congregation had their entire family driven from the group (and harassed socially in the community for years) because the father divorced his spouse because of infidelity and physically abusive behaviors.
Oh, and the classic ‘ex wives club’ stalking and harassing an ex, and any new wife - and manipulating her into ruining herself and joining the club.
I’ve seen all these play out first hand, and they are just a drop in the bucket. I’ve ceased to be amazed at the cruelty often demonstrated.
Abusive men tend to work a bit differently, so their setups often look more directly hierarchical and have less information sharing going on. They tend to operate more off secrecy and/or threats of explicit violence, than manipulation.
But I’ve seen a few (rare) instances of similar setups. People can be awesome. People can be terrible.
That's a very valuable insight. Thank you.
What is emotional vulnerability?
It's a state of being emotionally exposed in way that includes uncertainty. Like sharing emotions when you're unsure how the other person will respond. In this case, it might mean opening up more to an acquaintance as a way to develop a friendship but being unsure how they would receive that or reciprocate.
It's simmilar to physical vulnerability but with emotions. Displaying emotions in such a way that someone could - if they were so inclined - emotionally exploit and attack you. For example, opening up about your greatest fears can open you up to ridicule or someone pranking you.
Female stereotyping.
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lolyeahokfgt(1)
I don't feel very exceptional in terms of my social network among my peers and I would say probably 20-25. I think it mostly comes from emotional support being pretty much table stakes for female friendships. I feel like most "biological" explanations are bunk but like if you're gonna be friends you're gonna be friends when you're on your period and going through it.
Anecdotally I'd say I can't imagine living with like, one or two people I turn to for emotional support. Would be a nightmare. I know probably 20 or 30 people I could turn to if I needed something, even just to vent.
I wouldn't even necessarily say I'm that close with most of them. It's sort of just... table stakes?
I wouldn't even necessarily say I'm that close with most of them. It's sort of just... table stakes?
I'm interested in what it is like. I have and always had 0 and really don't feel like I need to talk about my problems with anyone. Never discussed them with my parents even though we have a loving relationship with my mom, and I talk to my spouse but it feels forced being asked about my "feelings" even though again we have a very loving and trusting relationship. When I do have stress/etc. talking about it doesn't really do anything for me. I went to a therapist for the first time recently, just because I have a free benefit at work and everybody's doing it, and by the middle of the 2nd session it felt like there's just nothing to talk about so I probably won't be continuing.
Ok, I think at some point I might have been mildly helpful to one friend who had a crisis by just sorta being there, I can see that, but that was literally a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence so far.
What are 20 people for, like how does it work?
Ok, I think at some point I might have been mildly helpful to one friend who had a crisis by just sorta being there, I can see that, but that was literally a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence so far.
What are 20 people for, like how does it work?
Imagine three other possibilities:
You have a dozen people who would give you emotional support but you don't ask for any because you aren't sure you could give emotional support in return.
You have a dozen people you think might give you emotional support but you don't want to burden them with your problems.
You have a dozen people that would give you emotional support, maybe once, but you are too afraid to burn the single emotional support coupon until its more important.
You have a dozen people who would give you emotional support but you don't ask for any because you aren't sure you could give emotional support in return.
You have a dozen people you think might give you emotional support but you don't want to burden them with your problems.
You have a dozen people that would give you emotional support, maybe once, but you are too afraid to burn the single emotional support coupon until its more important.
i have one friend that i can trust to be able to talk to with challenges in my life and especially with challenges in my relationship. i know that because he has been open and sharing many of his personal challenges for by now decades with a group of friends that i am privileged to have been invited to.
for everyone else it is pretty much like you describe. i have probably over time met people from each of those categories. and some of them may actually have turned into real friends that i could trust like this one friend above. but moving around meant that we didn't keep in touch. (and it's worth mentioning that almost none of them are from my home, so without moving around i would not have even met them)
for everyone else it is pretty much like you describe. i have probably over time met people from each of those categories. and some of them may actually have turned into real friends that i could trust like this one friend above. but moving around meant that we didn't keep in touch. (and it's worth mentioning that almost none of them are from my home, so without moving around i would not have even met them)
> You have a dozen people that would give you emotional support, maybe once, but you are too afraid to burn the single emotional support coupon until its more important.
This is real. I went through an emotional crisis last year and reached out to a few friends and family for support. My choice to do that has left those relationships more distant, if not permanently damaged.
This is real. I went through an emotional crisis last year and reached out to a few friends and family for support. My choice to do that has left those relationships more distant, if not permanently damaged.
Yeah, that makes sense. I guess I just don't worry about it that much these days. What you're describing - the fear of overburdening or burning bridges, the uncertainty about what I can give back - I dunno. I had that, at one point, too. A LONG time ago. Middle school, high school maybe. But many years of being shown I can count on the people around me, and that I'm better at giving support in kind than I think, has made it less of a serious worry.
Of course there are limits, and they have to be respected. "Do not discuss rope in the house of a hanged man." But that's why there's so much breadth. If I can't talk about it with my partner, or my close friends are involved, I can almost always find someone willing to hear me out. Someone it's appropriate to go to support for.
Of course there are limits, and they have to be respected. "Do not discuss rope in the house of a hanged man." But that's why there's so much breadth. If I can't talk about it with my partner, or my close friends are involved, I can almost always find someone willing to hear me out. Someone it's appropriate to go to support for.
And with such a small sample size, the variance will be high.
For example, I estimate that my own emotional support network quadrupled from about 1-2 before the age of 30 to 5-8 after the age of 40.
For example, I estimate that my own emotional support network quadrupled from about 1-2 before the age of 30 to 5-8 after the age of 40.
> reflecting an average decrease from two to one
What this really seems to be saying is more like "men generally don't have emotional support networks".
What this really seems to be saying is more like "men generally don't have emotional support networks".
This is why there’s the joke that the miracle wasn’t Christ rising from the dead, it was having 12 close personal friends in his 30s.
Were they friends or his downline?
That so bleak.
"However, generalized responses, such as “family” or “friends,” as well as mentions of non-human sources like pets, were excluded from formal analyses."
They excluded everyone that had a large support network from the study.
They excluded everyone that had a large support network from the study.
Oh, that explains it.
I was sitting here wondering how anyone has only two to begin with.
I was sitting here wondering how anyone has only two to begin with.
I had none for a very long time. Happy to report I have someone now.
Your dismissal of people with small emotional support networks angers me if I'm being honest.
Your dismissal of people with small emotional support networks angers me if I'm being honest.
> Your dismissal of people with small emotional support networks
That's not what I was doing.
Like, I'm an extreme introvert. Most people are more extroverted than I am. Despite this, I have more than two close friends.
Whatever's causing some people to have small emotional support networks is something that should be studied by scientists, rather than taken for granted like this article does. Preventing unnecessary suffering is a net-positive for society.
But the article excluded the people who have more than two close friends, and kind of took that for granted. So I was responding to the article, not the circumstances other people suffer through.
I can see how someone could misread my comment to mean something else, but that wasn't what I was stating.
That's not what I was doing.
Like, I'm an extreme introvert. Most people are more extroverted than I am. Despite this, I have more than two close friends.
Whatever's causing some people to have small emotional support networks is something that should be studied by scientists, rather than taken for granted like this article does. Preventing unnecessary suffering is a net-positive for society.
But the article excluded the people who have more than two close friends, and kind of took that for granted. So I was responding to the article, not the circumstances other people suffer through.
I can see how someone could misread my comment to mean something else, but that wasn't what I was stating.
Thanks for responding and clarifying. My apologies for misreading your intent.
Happens to everyone. Thanks for being cool about it.
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> I was sitting here wondering how anyone has only two to begin with.
They might have zero for that matter since they might have a wife and 2.5 kids and living parents and the necessary number of close friends but be emotionally closed off to all of those. Does that explain things for you?
They might have zero for that matter since they might have a wife and 2.5 kids and living parents and the necessary number of close friends but be emotionally closed off to all of those. Does that explain things for you?
No, it doesn't explain shit. You've only provided answers to "what?" questions, not "why?" questions.
Next question.
Next question.
You were the one with the question.
> Does that explain things for you?
Not the only one.
Not the only one.
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I am doing my PhD and occasionally my supervisor and I come across papers that don't have any meaningful results/statistics but you gotta publish somehow. Like, they conclude with "We observed that the latency can be reduced by 2x-300x." I feel like the group that did this research spent a decade, and their supervisor was like, well, we gotta publish something. Choose an age interval that fits the whole data. 30-90.
Exactly what I thought put into words. There is not even a comparison to the obvious first question. Do women have the same effects or is it limited to men?
Agreed. They followed this cohort for decades and this was the conclusion? It reads like an update from the pitch drop experiment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_drop_experiment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_drop_experiment
As a teenager I would confide in my mom. Then sometimes she would just tell random people about it. Oh, I was not supposed to do that?
I vented my inter-personal frustration once to a friend and he dismissed it as just normal behavior on the part of the other person. The problem then is that the cat is out of the bag. It’s just left hanging there. Wishing it never got out.
I had a woman colleague. She started venting about the work to the point that it felt like it was crossing into “emotional support”. I reciprocated a bit. Then I felt like she left me hanging a bit too much. But again: cat was out of the bag, no way to take it back now. I quit 1.5 years ago but I still feel annoyed by that.
I don’t have an emotionally rich interpersonal life so there isn’t many anecdotes.
I vented my inter-personal frustration once to a friend and he dismissed it as just normal behavior on the part of the other person. The problem then is that the cat is out of the bag. It’s just left hanging there. Wishing it never got out.
I had a woman colleague. She started venting about the work to the point that it felt like it was crossing into “emotional support”. I reciprocated a bit. Then I felt like she left me hanging a bit too much. But again: cat was out of the bag, no way to take it back now. I quit 1.5 years ago but I still feel annoyed by that.
I don’t have an emotionally rich interpersonal life so there isn’t many anecdotes.
We get an emotional support network? Nobody told me.
I know it's supposed to be a joke but it actually encapsulates one of the core issues about this already on the language level, men thinking they'd "get" something out of thin air. Do you think women have 31.41x larger emotional support networks out of thin air? Of course not, they put the effort in. Men don't.
Compassion is helpful here.
Consider that many men (among others) don't consciously experience regular or frequent need for verbal or tactile emotional support as such, so they don't get a lot of practice culturing it as a skill, either as a giver or receiver, and don't often get to feel out which people in their network are going to be well-suited for it anyway.
Infrequent needs are hard to "work on" and often benefit from institutional support rather than ad hoc support: therapists, churches/etc, discussion groups, etc
It's sort of like changing tires, in that way. Now that manually changing a car tire is rare, because tires are more durable and crises can generally be remediated by calling some number on the cell phone you're certainly carrying, fewer and fewer people have actually done it and have a working, practiced familiarity with how to do it. But thankfully, roadside assistance and tow trucks are widely available and there's mostly no shame to using them now.
Supporting instutitonal access for emotional support would go along way towards helping the many people who just don't have an opportunity to "work on" building support networks the way you suggest.
Consider that many men (among others) don't consciously experience regular or frequent need for verbal or tactile emotional support as such, so they don't get a lot of practice culturing it as a skill, either as a giver or receiver, and don't often get to feel out which people in their network are going to be well-suited for it anyway.
Infrequent needs are hard to "work on" and often benefit from institutional support rather than ad hoc support: therapists, churches/etc, discussion groups, etc
It's sort of like changing tires, in that way. Now that manually changing a car tire is rare, because tires are more durable and crises can generally be remediated by calling some number on the cell phone you're certainly carrying, fewer and fewer people have actually done it and have a working, practiced familiarity with how to do it. But thankfully, roadside assistance and tow trucks are widely available and there's mostly no shame to using them now.
Supporting instutitonal access for emotional support would go along way towards helping the many people who just don't have an opportunity to "work on" building support networks the way you suggest.
The person, above you, is responding as such because the framing is very passive, it sounds like it’s everyone else’s responsibility which will not help men because they have to show up. The title should “Men are not maintaining or making friendships”
They do show up at my art and DnD meetups and some of them can barely talk, at first, but after a while you can see them start to come out of their shell, I find it takes about two years before their lives become transformed.
But again, they have to show up and thats on them.
They do show up at my art and DnD meetups and some of them can barely talk, at first, but after a while you can see them start to come out of their shell, I find it takes about two years before their lives become transformed.
But again, they have to show up and thats on them.
You are reading into “we get”, a perhaps shortened phrase (“we get to
have”, i.e. “that’s an option for us?”) which is obviously useful in
such a sardonic reply. This was interpreted as a joke but for some
reason this person still ran with the entitlement shtick.
And since we’re playing language/interpretation games: this attitude that men in particular feel entitlement in this area is backlash against people writing about problems that men have is if it isn’t simply and narrowly a problem of the individual. It starts like this:
- Initially it’s taboo
- Then it’s a topic about how men are failing as individuals
- Then it gets seen as a sociological problem (a sociological problem can still be an individual problem in other contexts, it’s a lens)
And since we’re playing language/interpretation games: this attitude that men in particular feel entitlement in this area is backlash against people writing about problems that men have is if it isn’t simply and narrowly a problem of the individual. It starts like this:
- Initially it’s taboo
- Then it’s a topic about how men are failing as individuals
- Then it gets seen as a sociological problem (a sociological problem can still be an individual problem in other contexts, it’s a lens)
I think the people pushing this narrative want, exactly, the reaction you are displaying here.
What position? That social science is conceptually a thing?
I think we are agreeing it’s an individual’s problem. I was responding to the “compassion” comment not the joke comment but the same applies for everyone.
I just see streams of these weirdly skewed articles. The irony of segmenting society to fight loneliness is not lost on me.
I just see streams of these weirdly skewed articles. The irony of segmenting society to fight loneliness is not lost on me.
I don’t think I care to agree with you at all or your way of responding with obtuse “the reaction you are displaying here”, then backing away from it.
Someone who wants institutions where people can get such support is pushing a narrative. Okay. Good for you.
Someone who wants institutions where people can get such support is pushing a narrative. Okay. Good for you.
or maybe you don't write clearly?
Women do not build these networks by needing frequent emotional support. It is build on mundane stuff, when you do not need support, when no one need support.
The emotional support thing is a consequence of building relationships when you do not need help, when you are fine. If you build them only when you need emotional support, you will be perceived as needy and people will get tired of it.
The emotional support thing is a consequence of building relationships when you do not need help, when you are fine. If you build them only when you need emotional support, you will be perceived as needy and people will get tired of it.
If that's all it was, there'd be no distinction at all.
Men, broadly, have plenty of "relationships" that they invest themselves in and are extremely loyaly to.
What the study was about, and the discussion is about, is emotional support, and that quality is often not seen (or at least acknowledged) in the intense, loyal, committed, and earnestly worked on relationships that men do form, because its only one quality among a whole plethora that might define a relationship.
Men, broadly, have plenty of "relationships" that they invest themselves in and are extremely loyaly to.
What the study was about, and the discussion is about, is emotional support, and that quality is often not seen (or at least acknowledged) in the intense, loyal, committed, and earnestly worked on relationships that men do form, because its only one quality among a whole plethora that might define a relationship.
the distinction is that men are raised not to show emotions. so when women are with their female friends, and the need for emotional support arises, they can open up because they were raised to know that this is acceptable, and they can just expect that most of their friends will be supportive.
men's friends on the other hand, don't at all mean that they can open up and get emotional support from them. they have to go an extra step in their friendships to find those that they can get emotional support from.
men's friends on the other hand, don't at all mean that they can open up and get emotional support from them. they have to go an extra step in their friendships to find those that they can get emotional support from.
I get it, but my point was that it is not the frequency of the need that makes the difference. The acts/discussions/whatever that let you find and get comfortable with people able to provide emotional support are happening when no one needs emotional support.
You build emotional support network by building it when you do not need emotional support.
You build emotional support network by building it when you do not need emotional support.
It's a problem of the commons.
It's particularly hard to bootstrap. You can take the plunge, attempt to open up to dozens of different guy-"friends", and repeatedly run into replies like "sucks, bro" or even "man up".
I have a hobby which exposes me regularly to men of different ages, backgrounds, financial circumstances, etc. This seems to be the case for all of them.
It's particularly hard to bootstrap. You can take the plunge, attempt to open up to dozens of different guy-"friends", and repeatedly run into replies like "sucks, bro" or even "man up".
I have a hobby which exposes me regularly to men of different ages, backgrounds, financial circumstances, etc. This seems to be the case for all of them.
> they put the effort in. Men don't.
Or you know, they do, and get used and cast aside enough times and stop.
Or you know, they do, and get used and cast aside enough times and stop.
>Men don't.
Even the idea repulses me.
Even the idea repulses me.
There are programs/orgs that try to address that. In Australia for example there's https://mensshed.org/ , https://dadlan.au/ and probably a few others I'm not familiar with. If someone's aware of the US equivalents this may be a good place to link them.
While the average is 1, a strikingly high number will have 0. The loneliness epidemic is a very real thing, and impacts men to a brutal degree.
I attend a church and it’s large enough that you would generally not get to know people very well. But they offer “small group” connection and about 3 years ago I connected with 3 other men. We meet every couple of weeks. We have different backgrounds but all of us have leadership responsibilities. We have step by step deepened the trust and confidence in each other. At some point over the past year each of us was in some type of ultra stressful situation - losing sleep -etc. But when we came to our group we could say as much or as little as we wished but the entire group was supportive. I could get into more detail but I know that many on HN don’t care for church. What I wanted to share is that we all have found this to be the highlight of our week - when we get together. Personally, it has been the most connected I have been with men in 20 years. So it’s not a law of nature that men won’t or can’t see their masculine support network grow. It takes time to build trust but it is worth the investment
Imagine having someone, anyone, that you felt comfortable sharing your feelings with. Amazing.
I've known my best friend for 50 years now, literally since kindergarten. One person. I probably wouldn't talk about my top 5% of private feelings with him, not sure why. I've been married 28 years now. She doesn't understand me at all, and doesn't want to see or hear any "weakness" from me. So what the f@#$ is an emotional support network? Science fiction, I'd say.
I've known my best friend for 50 years now, literally since kindergarten. One person. I probably wouldn't talk about my top 5% of private feelings with him, not sure why. I've been married 28 years now. She doesn't understand me at all, and doesn't want to see or hear any "weakness" from me. So what the f@#$ is an emotional support network? Science fiction, I'd say.
Your comment mirrors my experience with both close friends and a spouse. One time my now ex-wife asked why I don't share my feelings more. When I did she said she felt unsafe and we started talking about her instead. In my anecdotal experience men are routinely trained not to talk about their troubles and emotions. Even if I had some form of emotional support I am not sure I would know how to open up. And I am not sure I would want to.
Yeah... it's strange. Every partner I've had has been someone very aware (to the point of reading books about it in a few cases) of gender issues and the issues with our social norms. But all of them still followed this same trend. Dealing with their emotions was priced in - I was expected to do it. Dealing with my emotions was too scary, too burdensome, there was always some excuse to recenter it on her instead. And the horrifying thing would be when they bring it up later as ammunition for some petty argument. It gives you the sense that they hear these things and hold them like grudges. It makes you never want to open up ever again.
Isn't it perfectly normal/healthy to keep some of your private feelings totally private? Your best friends/spouses shouldn't necessarily be your psychotherapists.
> However, generalized responses, such as “family” or “friends,” as well as mentions of non-human sources like pets, were excluded from formal analyses.
Pets - fine; but rejecting generalized plural responses might mean rejecting cases where people genuinely had more emotional support providers.
Pets - fine; but rejecting generalized plural responses might mean rejecting cases where people genuinely had more emotional support providers.
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Incredible findings. Apparently your mom dies sometime when you are between age 30-90.
> This research was limited by its all-male, predominantly White sample and its reliance on self-reported data. Additionally, the quality of emotional support and its impacts on well-being were not assessed.
So: we don’t know if it’s just men, we don’t know if it’s true for all ethnicities or just white men, it’s a reduction from two to one, I don’t mean to be dismissive, but someone got funding for this?
So: we don’t know if it’s just men, we don’t know if it’s true for all ethnicities or just white men, it’s a reduction from two to one, I don’t mean to be dismissive, but someone got funding for this?
Of course, "Further research is required." ;-)
More telling, "This study utilized a unique longitudinal dataset drawn from a sample of 235 men who were originally recruited as Harvard University students between 1939 and 1942."
More telling, "This study utilized a unique longitudinal dataset drawn from a sample of 235 men who were originally recruited as Harvard University students between 1939 and 1942."
Middle-aged white men have long had the highest suicide rates, so that may explain the narrow focus.
> predominantly White
So, the ones that commit suicide at the highest rate. But I agree, this is not a good study and little if any meaningful information comes from it. Perhaps its failure can bolster some actual research into the issue?
So, the ones that commit suicide at the highest rate. But I agree, this is not a good study and little if any meaningful information comes from it. Perhaps its failure can bolster some actual research into the issue?
That's basically the critique that some weigh against huge swathes of psychology-adjacent research (among other domains), but is quite hard to overcome in practice, so money keeps flowing because its the established norm and because many people would rather have low-confidence pseudoscientific insights than no "scientific" insights at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology#WEIRD_bias
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology#WEIRD_bias
More like by 40. My relationship with even my best buds from school became empty or non existent after years of marriage and kids.
I will never stop being a regular at the local bar. I may switch to NA beers as I get older, but it is entirely important to me to engage in the rituals that predate history. Having a local bar/pub, generally walking distance away from a residence, where people gather and know each other (even if they are not friends) seems important to me.
This line of thinking has also nearly convinced my to go to some kind of church, but growing up with zealots as parents has pretty much nullified that. I only wish that universities took on the roll of a third place community center, offering/advertising free lectures to locals.
This line of thinking has also nearly convinced my to go to some kind of church, but growing up with zealots as parents has pretty much nullified that. I only wish that universities took on the roll of a third place community center, offering/advertising free lectures to locals.
I kind of wish coffee houses had more of this role like how they were in Vienna
I think people attended those as sort of a nightly news service. Where intellectuals would talk about the days events. Now, with modern tech, people can do that from their own how with experts just by watching the news or youtube.
I really think the automobile and television are more to blame for the loneliness epidemic than we give credit for.
I really think the automobile and television are more to blame for the loneliness epidemic than we give credit for.
Yes, I notice the benefit of having the same faces around regularly at the $sport I do few times per week. You don’t say much more than hello and goodbye, but after a while you appreciate each other's company and really miss it when you can’t go.
That's a wide range, isn't it?
Yeah, you could also say "Most men die between 30 and 90".
Men have emotional support networks?
I had two, then only one once the liquor store down road closed up shop.
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Once you're an adult, do you even need one in the first place?
I'm 24, I don't go to anyone for help pretty much ever, I just follow my own goals. That's gotten me way farther than most people I know
I don't think this talk about "male emotional support networks" is actually intended to help men, it's meant to infantilize them. They'd be better off just buying into the nietzschean "support yourself" type of worldview
I'm 24, I don't go to anyone for help pretty much ever, I just follow my own goals. That's gotten me way farther than most people I know
I don't think this talk about "male emotional support networks" is actually intended to help men, it's meant to infantilize them. They'd be better off just buying into the nietzschean "support yourself" type of worldview
I don't know you, but respectfully, people didn't start dying in my life until I was in my mid-30s.
The most heartbreaking experience I've had was my 88 year old neighbor ringing the door, and informing me that his wife of 60 years had just died. He managed to say three words. Before the fourth, he broke down in tears.
My wife has died.
Such a simple sentence, but a sentence that had 60 years of unconditional love behind it. And an entire family. Their life. His wife was lovely. I miss her, and cannot even pretend to imagine what this was, and still is, like, for him.
Behind him, at my door, was my other neighbor. He was the first to have been told. He just stood there, silently, while I gave the husband a long hug. He never said a word, his mere presence saying everything that needed to be said.
You are not alone.
The most heartbreaking experience I've had was my 88 year old neighbor ringing the door, and informing me that his wife of 60 years had just died. He managed to say three words. Before the fourth, he broke down in tears.
My wife has died.
Such a simple sentence, but a sentence that had 60 years of unconditional love behind it. And an entire family. Their life. His wife was lovely. I miss her, and cannot even pretend to imagine what this was, and still is, like, for him.
Behind him, at my door, was my other neighbor. He was the first to have been told. He just stood there, silently, while I gave the husband a long hug. He never said a word, his mere presence saying everything that needed to be said.
You are not alone.
At 24 you’re simply too young and have been lucky to not realize that life throws your curveballs.
You might be offended by my comment, but you won’t as you get older.
As you get older you might look at your teens as still being a baby, twenties as still being a kid, early thirties as starting to learn a thing or two, mid-thirties with some life lessons, and forties as finally knowing some things.
You might be offended by my comment, but you won’t as you get older.
As you get older you might look at your teens as still being a baby, twenties as still being a kid, early thirties as starting to learn a thing or two, mid-thirties with some life lessons, and forties as finally knowing some things.
You don't think you will want some support when a tragedy befalls you? A child or partner is hospitalized or dies? You develop a potentially terminal illness? A partner betrays you? Are you just going to "follow your goals" in these situations?
> A child or partner is hospitalized or dies?
everyone processes grief differently
> You develop a potentially terminal illness?
I mean, I'm probably going to die anyway. At least if you're alone you don't have to worry about the trade off between extreme medical bills and a few more months of life vs leaving family more money
> A partner betrays you?
I don't really plan on marrying so I'd just replace them with someone else
In all of these situations, you can figure out ways to get through them alone
everyone processes grief differently
> You develop a potentially terminal illness?
I mean, I'm probably going to die anyway. At least if you're alone you don't have to worry about the trade off between extreme medical bills and a few more months of life vs leaving family more money
> A partner betrays you?
I don't really plan on marrying so I'd just replace them with someone else
In all of these situations, you can figure out ways to get through them alone
> In all of these situations, you can figure out ways to get through them alone
That is not the point.
The point is that an emotional support network will help you in these situations and suggesting that someone build one is not "infantilizing" them but giving them valuable tools.
I could care less if you find one personally valuable or not (I don't have trouble imagining that there are people for which they are not), but I object to your generalizations and implication that men who pursue them are somehow lesser.
That is not the point.
The point is that an emotional support network will help you in these situations and suggesting that someone build one is not "infantilizing" them but giving them valuable tools.
I could care less if you find one personally valuable or not (I don't have trouble imagining that there are people for which they are not), but I object to your generalizations and implication that men who pursue them are somehow lesser.
How is "emotional support" going to help with any of that?
It's right in the name, it helps you handle and process your emotions.
I can do that on my own perfectly fine.
As a man in my mid-40s who has gradually become more aware of my emotions and the need I have for connection, I disagree. Of course I can't make claims about anyone else's needs or happiness, but for myself my life has been a lot better as I have built supportive friendships. I don't feel infantilized, I feel more able to have my needs met, be happier, work through blocks that are triggered by old wounds, etc. I feel more capable of living a satisfying life.
I think that this ideology is one of reasons why men get less emotional support and why many cant provide it. They cant provided because they don't want to, because they look down on people who want or need it. And consequently they cant really talk openly with other men, because they will look down at them.
> Once you're an adult, do you even need one in the first place?
Yes adults need it. Humans are animals like that.
> Once you're an adult, do you even need one in the first place?
Yes adults need it. Humans are animals like that.
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>Once you're an adult, do you even need one in the first place?
>I'm 24
No offense, but you're barely an adult. Life is hard, everyone needs help at some point. This is not a new concept.
>I'm 24
No offense, but you're barely an adult. Life is hard, everyone needs help at some point. This is not a new concept.
Yes, I don't even know what "emotional support" would look like.
I have never wanted to externalize my emotions and the idea of talking to my friends about my feelings seems utterly bizarre.
I have never wanted to externalize my emotions and the idea of talking to my friends about my feelings seems utterly bizarre.
This is the saddest thing I've read on HN and that's saying something
Why do you think it is sad?
I mean, I talk to friends and family about stuff that's going on. But I don't turn to them for actual advice because usually my own advice is better
I like to talk to my friends about many things, my emotions just do not include that and at no point in my adult life have I ever felt any inclination to do so.
You have never talked about being angry, about being happy? Those are emotions. And I see men writing about feeling lonely on hacker news all the time.
Developers talk about being frustrated by tasks. Frustration is an emotion.
Developers talk about being frustrated by tasks. Frustration is an emotion.
>You have never talked about being angry, about being happy?
No. Why would I?
>Developers talk about being frustrated by tasks. Frustration is an emotion.
But they do not seek emotional support, they seek advice on how to overcome that frustration.
>And I see men writing about feeling lonely on hacker news all the time.
Coincidentally I have also never felt lonely.
Not once in my life have I felt the need to externalize my emotions. Of course I have had problems in my life, which I talked about with parents and friends, but my emotions where never part of that.
No. Why would I?
>Developers talk about being frustrated by tasks. Frustration is an emotion.
But they do not seek emotional support, they seek advice on how to overcome that frustration.
>And I see men writing about feeling lonely on hacker news all the time.
Coincidentally I have also never felt lonely.
Not once in my life have I felt the need to externalize my emotions. Of course I have had problems in my life, which I talked about with parents and friends, but my emotions where never part of that.
> But they do not seek emotional support, they seek advice on how to overcome that frustration.
Totally not. They seek validation and venting. Men in general don't like being given advice, rarely seek it and when they do, they are explicit a put seeking it.
Totally not. They seek validation and venting. Men in general don't like being given advice, rarely seek it and when they do, they are explicit a put seeking it.
>Men in general don't like being given advice, rarely seek it and when they do, they are explicit a put seeking it.
What? Certainly not my experience, in either direction.
What? Certainly not my experience, in either direction.
They do not even give advice to each other all that often.
> it's meant to infantilize them
There are a few assumptions embedded within this statement.
Firstly, you assume that 'they' have an intent other than the stated one, without explaining who 'they' may be, why 'they' would want to do this, and that 'they' have managed to be the only large group of humans to ever keep a secret successfully.
Secondly, you imply that 'being infantalized' would somehow be harmful to you, and that it might reduce your ability to care for yourself.
I suspect that as a relatively young person you've realized that you are an adult, but not what that actually means yet. It means that YOU get to help decide what being an adult means, and how other adults should be judged.
If living an isolated life brings you joy somehow, that's fine. We aren't all wired the same. However, the rest of us are starting to realize it doesn't have to be that way, and as your fellow adults we don't have to do it the same way our largely miserable, broken, and frightened grandparents did.
There are a few assumptions embedded within this statement.
Firstly, you assume that 'they' have an intent other than the stated one, without explaining who 'they' may be, why 'they' would want to do this, and that 'they' have managed to be the only large group of humans to ever keep a secret successfully.
Secondly, you imply that 'being infantalized' would somehow be harmful to you, and that it might reduce your ability to care for yourself.
I suspect that as a relatively young person you've realized that you are an adult, but not what that actually means yet. It means that YOU get to help decide what being an adult means, and how other adults should be judged.
If living an isolated life brings you joy somehow, that's fine. We aren't all wired the same. However, the rest of us are starting to realize it doesn't have to be that way, and as your fellow adults we don't have to do it the same way our largely miserable, broken, and frightened grandparents did.
Looks like you read through my bullshit
The point of those beliefs is simple: that's what it takes to get results in this economic system. It's toxic fuel. Whether or not it makes sense is irrelevant
In this economic system, everyone is a free agent trying to maximize their own wealth, but at the same time we have a need for support. People can simultaneously be wolves and sheep
I'm not saying that people shouldn't confide in each other. I'm saying that in this fucked up world, you need both. One side comes naturally because we don't come out of the womb scheming, the other is a hard truth that we all have to make peace with. If you want to keep your stuff, you have to fight for it. Toxic masculinity isn't some pointless evolutionary quirk, it's solving a specific problem in the circle of life
The point of those beliefs is simple: that's what it takes to get results in this economic system. It's toxic fuel. Whether or not it makes sense is irrelevant
In this economic system, everyone is a free agent trying to maximize their own wealth, but at the same time we have a need for support. People can simultaneously be wolves and sheep
I'm not saying that people shouldn't confide in each other. I'm saying that in this fucked up world, you need both. One side comes naturally because we don't come out of the womb scheming, the other is a hard truth that we all have to make peace with. If you want to keep your stuff, you have to fight for it. Toxic masculinity isn't some pointless evolutionary quirk, it's solving a specific problem in the circle of life
which problem is toxic masculinity solving? i don't get it. all my life i try to get away from that, and make sure i am not becoming like them. if toxic masculinity is needed to be successful, then i'd rather be a failure. i refuse to howl with the wolves as it were.
I feel similarly, personally. I can't imagine needing emotional support... emotions are tools of my psyche, and needing another's help would mean that something was broken within myself that I needed to fix.
That doesn't mean relationships and support aren't helpful, for many reasons. I just don't see a need for them for emotional support.
But people are different, and we all develop unique inner mechanisms. So I don't think other men should be criticized as infantile for needing or wanting support, just as you wouldn't criticize women for the same; it's just a difference in how the individual processes their emotions.
That doesn't mean relationships and support aren't helpful, for many reasons. I just don't see a need for them for emotional support.
But people are different, and we all develop unique inner mechanisms. So I don't think other men should be criticized as infantile for needing or wanting support, just as you wouldn't criticize women for the same; it's just a difference in how the individual processes their emotions.
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Useless.
'generalized responses, such as “family” or “friends,”..., were excluded from formal analyses.'
'generalized responses, such as “family” or “friends,”..., were excluded from formal analyses.'
well good thing today they often dont even aquire one in the first place. good thing they would vote ever more radical to end that torture..
Men typically rely on their wives as their sole emotional support, and then people are surprised when 70% of divorces are initiated by women.
I've heard it said that romance for a man is that she still loves you even if you can no longer provide.
Sadly, I think very few men have such a relationship that would survive an extended job loss, or getting seriously ill. There's plenty of anecdata of men opening up emotionally, only to have their partner recoil in disgust.
Sadly, I think very few men have such a relationship that would survive an extended job loss, or getting seriously ill. There's plenty of anecdata of men opening up emotionally, only to have their partner recoil in disgust.
Well, let’s look at two things here:
1. Men often suck at providing emotional support, as is a common complaint from women. So are men expected to rely on men for emotional support, or extramarital female relationships?
2. Men are typically limited access to female peers when they get married. For example, my first wife told me flat out which of my friends were too attractive for me to maintain friendships with. Reiterating that men are pretty lousy at providing emotional support so women who don’t have the weight of marriage forcing them to maintain the relationship are going to feel an imbalance and stop offering the uncompensated labor means we can’t rely on other women either.
Until men are raised to give emotional support, we’re not going to be effective at or equitable about obtaining it, either.
1. Men often suck at providing emotional support, as is a common complaint from women. So are men expected to rely on men for emotional support, or extramarital female relationships?
2. Men are typically limited access to female peers when they get married. For example, my first wife told me flat out which of my friends were too attractive for me to maintain friendships with. Reiterating that men are pretty lousy at providing emotional support so women who don’t have the weight of marriage forcing them to maintain the relationship are going to feel an imbalance and stop offering the uncompensated labor means we can’t rely on other women either.
Until men are raised to give emotional support, we’re not going to be effective at or equitable about obtaining it, either.
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This is AI emotional support come in
Yeah. Prob 90% of mine went away between 36-40 years old.
You guys are getting emotional support???
And an entire NETWORK?!
Literally had no IRL friends since half my life, and am mostly single. Not uncommon among my coder friends, either.
Literally had no IRL friends since half my life, and am mostly single. Not uncommon among my coder friends, either.
It has declined by 50% since one of the two local liquor stores closed.
nah it's too expensive
SoftTalker(7)
293 Harvard men, last sampled in 2010, with “network” sizes of 2…
Pseudo-science is dressing up a few true facts as a vehicle for opinion. It’s typically relatively harmless, except perhaps when it happens to reflect a regressive zeitgeist.
My own experience suggests all men take a lot more care on this point, but the effect of that been mostly overwhelmed by increased competition.
Pseudo-science is dressing up a few true facts as a vehicle for opinion. It’s typically relatively harmless, except perhaps when it happens to reflect a regressive zeitgeist.
My own experience suggests all men take a lot more care on this point, but the effect of that been mostly overwhelmed by increased competition.
Thats a really wide range too.
By 90 it is increasingly likely your spouse and close friends are mostly dead.
My emotional support network consists of two people, my long-term partner and my parent(s). My long term partner loves me conditionally (and don’t let anyone fool you into thinking that this is abnormal).
Only your parents might love you unconditionally, and they have a pretty decent head start with their mortality.