It is time to ban email(shkspr.mobi)
shkspr.mobi
It is time to ban email
https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2025/01/it-is-time-to-ban-email/
63 comments
> when a piece of technology has been stable for 40 years, and there is a fuck up, you can't reaally blame it on the tech.
After 40 years of the same fuck up - what should you blame?
After 40 years of the same fuck up - what should you blame?
People who don't learn how to use the tools that are an intrinsic part of their job?
> People who don't learn how to use the tools that are an intrinsic part of their job?
EXACTLY! The amount of times I run into people who aren't willing to even put 1 iota of effort into learning tools they use daily... astounds me.
EXACTLY! The amount of times I run into people who aren't willing to even put 1 iota of effort into learning tools they use daily... astounds me.
Maybe deciding who should have access to what information is just an intrinsic difficulty of the problem space? In this day and age, maybe you could have an LLM read the email and ask for confirmation for CC.
>control who gets that information
With you so far yes
>giving read access to an cloud llm
We are doomed
With you so far yes
>giving read access to an cloud llm
We are doomed
You replace it with literally any chat application made in the last 30 years. Hell even Microsoft Lync didn't have this problem.
You don't even have to replace the email system behind the curtain, just make it work like group chats. People seem to get "start a group chat" vs "send a message to each person individually."
Why we even still bother with the letters and mailboxes metaphor is beyond me. It implies a level of ceremony that just isn't needed anymore. Just send the file, what does "attaching" mean in the digital age?
You don't even have to replace the email system behind the curtain, just make it work like group chats. People seem to get "start a group chat" vs "send a message to each person individually."
Why we even still bother with the letters and mailboxes metaphor is beyond me. It implies a level of ceremony that just isn't needed anymore. Just send the file, what does "attaching" mean in the digital age?
I was on a team looking at real life communication behaviors in 2000 or so, when email was pretty new to “normal”
folks. We learned it was very common for people on their home computers communicating with family to just reply-all to the most recent message to the family. This meant the subject line was somewhere between useless and actively confusing, so they ignored it.
What they really wanted (without knowing how to ask for it) was a multi-party chat application, but one with attachments and universal addressing — which in 2025 we still don’t have, thanks to rent-seeking. Fortunately, email was defined before anyone realized how much money you could make by maintaining a walled garden.
What they really wanted (without knowing how to ask for it) was a multi-party chat application, but one with attachments and universal addressing — which in 2025 we still don’t have, thanks to rent-seeking. Fortunately, email was defined before anyone realized how much money you could make by maintaining a walled garden.
> People seem to get "start a group chat" vs "send a message to each person individually."
The WhatsApp groups for my kids school classes, bands and sports teams beg to differ.
Communities seems like a legitimately useful feature to manage this. Absolutely nobody uses it because that would require an iota more forethought than the bare minimum.
The difference with email here is that if these were email groups I have access to sophisticated tools to manage that noise on /my end/. With WhatsApp I’m beholden to the tools that Meta deign to provide, then to the subset of those that the group chat convener bothers to enable. Thus, all I actually have in practice is “mute this chat”.
The WhatsApp groups for my kids school classes, bands and sports teams beg to differ.
Communities seems like a legitimately useful feature to manage this. Absolutely nobody uses it because that would require an iota more forethought than the bare minimum.
The difference with email here is that if these were email groups I have access to sophisticated tools to manage that noise on /my end/. With WhatsApp I’m beholden to the tools that Meta deign to provide, then to the subset of those that the group chat convener bothers to enable. Thus, all I actually have in practice is “mute this chat”.
> You replace it with literally any chat application made in the last 30 years.
And that's how you lose me. Async communication is best for 99% of the time. Sending me an email invite to a meeting covers the 1% where synchronous is better. I'm not using an instant-interruption (chat) service, and I don't get meeting invites any other way than email.
Upon further reflection, a world without email would be nice and quiet, for me at least. Maybe that's not so bad.
And that's how you lose me. Async communication is best for 99% of the time. Sending me an email invite to a meeting covers the 1% where synchronous is better. I'm not using an instant-interruption (chat) service, and I don't get meeting invites any other way than email.
Upon further reflection, a world without email would be nice and quiet, for me at least. Maybe that's not so bad.
>replace it with literally any chat application made in the last 30 years. Hell even Microsoft Lync didn't have this problem.
Ah yes, let me just ask 1000 people to install microsoft lync before they can see my message
Ah yes, let me just ask 1000 people to install microsoft lync before they can see my message
[deleted]
>"Why we even still bother with the letters and mailboxes metaphor is beyond me"
Well for one it enables us to apply a whole lot of law and case law without reinventing the wheel.
Mail contents enjoy a lot of privacy privileges, while headers do not as they are used for routing purposes.
>Just send the file, what does "attaching"
Ah yes just send the file, how didn't we think of this sooner, you must publish your findings with the engineering community, pronto open an rfc
Well for one it enables us to apply a whole lot of law and case law without reinventing the wheel.
Mail contents enjoy a lot of privacy privileges, while headers do not as they are used for routing purposes.
>Just send the file, what does "attaching"
Ah yes just send the file, how didn't we think of this sooner, you must publish your findings with the engineering community, pronto open an rfc
No need to be snarky, this is a UI issue. In any chat application you open the chat with your desired recipient(s) and send the file. And it works, you don't have to write a message and then attach the file to it. You also don't have to think about the difference between attaching an image and having an image in the message. It's unnecessary ceremony on the part of the user, you would never invent it again.
But you can send an empty message and attach a file. Not sure what the issue is.
On a more general note, email is a standardized protocol and originates from the network, while standards do sometimes define interface requirements, it's for sure sparse.
Also most software tends to implement standards comprehensively and unimaginatively, so I agree that email UI is an issue.
On a more general note, email is a standardized protocol and originates from the network, while standards do sometimes define interface requirements, it's for sure sparse.
Also most software tends to implement standards comprehensively and unimaginatively, so I agree that email UI is an issue.
Most of the issues discussed are problems with email software and not the protocol. Attachments should (probably) not be included by default in reply messages. Reply to a message with multiple recipients should ask clarification to reply to sender or the group (or have a selectable default). BCC should somehow be preferred to CC - Maybe CC should be "group email"
Funny, I had a conversation just yesterday where someone was saying they joined a new company expecting to use collaborative documents for spec documents, technical proposals, etc. This is, btw, a very large company that makes many $B selling a SaaS for collaborative documents. They were surprised to find that everyone instead emailed copies of the spec around, expecting people to make individual comments in the doc and email it back, as if it was 2001.
It turns out that in [this part of] this company, collaborative documents go against the actual desires of the document author. They want to be able to accept comment/edits from an individual privately, say "thank you for your input", and completely ignore them. If the comments are public for all to see, they can't do that!
Strangely, private comments are not a feature of the SaaS product, despite this failure of internal product-market fit.
It turns out that in [this part of] this company, collaborative documents go against the actual desires of the document author. They want to be able to accept comment/edits from an individual privately, say "thank you for your input", and completely ignore them. If the comments are public for all to see, they can't do that!
Strangely, private comments are not a feature of the SaaS product, despite this failure of internal product-market fit.
Can we not just throw out the last widespread open communication protocol with the bath water?
UI of email has stagnated or regressed because big companies don't benefit from improving it. They prefer to lock you into incompatible messaging platforms (Slack, Telegram, Discord, Teams, ...) where email UI could easily be adapted to have similar interfaces in many cases.
See https://delta.chat/en/ - I use it for basically all email now. It is a genuine leap forward in UI.
Thanks for the link to Delta Chat. Seems very impressive. I am tempted to install it for email.
Any tips, based on your experience so far?
Any tips, based on your experience so far?
Nothing more than just using it. It is a normal email client but it can displace WhatsApp and signal in your IMs if other people you know use it. If you have an existing GPG key you can import it, if memory serves.
Email is one of the best communication protocols humanity has ever invented.
Do you want to give Meta the keys to all your communications? Or Slack, who sends them off to AI training models?
Do you want to give Meta the keys to all your communications? Or Slack, who sends them off to AI training models?
The major feature of email, federation, is also it's biggest weakness.
Rhese days, most emails travel between Microsoft, Gmail, Yahoo, and a few others, and they are in an arms race with spammers. Smaller providers have increasingly trouble keeping up with that fight and with the measures of the big providers because they can be out of business quite quickly if they relay spam and the major providers stop trusting them. Monopolization is also happening in that space.
Rhese days, most emails travel between Microsoft, Gmail, Yahoo, and a few others, and they are in an arms race with spammers. Smaller providers have increasingly trouble keeping up with that fight and with the measures of the big providers because they can be out of business quite quickly if they relay spam and the major providers stop trusting them. Monopolization is also happening in that space.
Google and Microsoft probably already have the keys to 90%+ of all email comms. They probably already use them to train AI.
It is well known that the Enron emails were used to train early AIs
* https://qz.com/work/1546565/the-emails-that-brought-down-enr...
* https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~enron/
But, if it is one of the best comms protocols, why then do people flock to WhatsApp, Slack, and other non-email products?
It is well known that the Enron emails were used to train early AIs
* https://qz.com/work/1546565/the-emails-that-brought-down-enr...
* https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~enron/
But, if it is one of the best comms protocols, why then do people flock to WhatsApp, Slack, and other non-email products?
> why then do people flock to WhatsApp, Slack, and other non-email products?
One reason is that corporations are extremely good at hijacking attention and stimulating addictive areas of the brain. There are various definitions of "best" here, ranging from "efficient" to "what people will flock to".
One reason is that corporations are extremely good at hijacking attention and stimulating addictive areas of the brain. There are various definitions of "best" here, ranging from "efficient" to "what people will flock to".
> why then do people flock to
UI and delivery latency.
I think both are fixable but the latter is more difficult.
UI and delivery latency.
I think both are fixable but the latter is more difficult.
Email's a unique protocol because it's structured fundamentally differently than every other messaging protocol/app. It's focused on sending documents around, which are individual and have no external context. This is unlike most messaging apps which are chat focused: the base unit of interaction is the chat thread/channel/DM/whatever, not the individual chat message. Email's not really good for chat. You can have replies and stuff, and you can have threads, but because each email is independent and threads are made up of ad hoc links between messages, if one message forgets to include threading or reply metadata then the thread is broken. Modern messaging apps have a first-class concept of a thread or channel that messages belong to, which makes breaking conversations much more difficult. At the same time though, not everything needs to be a conversation. If I get a weekly newsletter, I think of it more as an individual document than a message in a conversation. If Amazon tells me my order is shipped, it doesn't really have any relation with the other times they've told me an order has shipped, so it doesn't really belong in the same thread of conversation
So many articles I read about "email needs to go" don't understand that messaging apps/protocols are conversation-based, while email is document-based, and that the latter model does have its benefits and should be retained. Yes, whatever replaces email needs to be federated and open instead of closed off like Discord or Twitter or whatever, but that's in addition to the fact that it needs to be document-based as well
So many articles I read about "email needs to go" don't understand that messaging apps/protocols are conversation-based, while email is document-based, and that the latter model does have its benefits and should be retained. Yes, whatever replaces email needs to be federated and open instead of closed off like Discord or Twitter or whatever, but that's in addition to the fact that it needs to be document-based as well
I don't agree that there's a fundamental difference between conversation-based and document-based.
Or more correctly, I would argue that both email and messaging protocols are both, and it's just a matter of UI differences.
... and the pesky realities of mail spools and spam filtering and federation and open addressability, etc.
Or more correctly, I would argue that both email and messaging protocols are both, and it's just a matter of UI differences.
... and the pesky realities of mail spools and spam filtering and federation and open addressability, etc.
The problems described here seem like they could be solved by email clients, rather than abandoning the whole protocol.
I agree with this.
It's a client UI and server configuration issue.
Email clients and servers could be configured to support instantaneous transmission, with a client UI that is presented in a thread like format (no, I'm not talking about thunderbird "threads", that's just mozilla wasting more of goggle's money).
This really _should_ replace SMS even before messaging apps. SMS is a seriously bad service-provider-dominated security nightmare.
It's a client UI and server configuration issue.
Email clients and servers could be configured to support instantaneous transmission, with a client UI that is presented in a thread like format (no, I'm not talking about thunderbird "threads", that's just mozilla wasting more of goggle's money).
This really _should_ replace SMS even before messaging apps. SMS is a seriously bad service-provider-dominated security nightmare.
Definitely. IIRC, GNU Evolution gives you a stern warning if you try to send a message with many To or Cc recipients.
> Will the youth of today see sending an email as ridiculously old-fashioned as a paper telegram or a landline?
They already do.
They already do.
Not just youth - I work with teams of all ages (skewing towards older GenX - and even younger boomers), and getting them to commit to sending an actual email versus an instant message is incredibly difficult.
But - I was "raised" with email and have personal archives going back 30+ years now. It was also my "CMS", and it "just worked" with everything and everyone across every platform.
But - I was "raised" with email and have personal archives going back 30+ years now. It was also my "CMS", and it "just worked" with everything and everyone across every platform.
I'm firmly Gen Z and love email. Messaging is great, but emails have a formality that is infuriating for casual conversation, but works really well for anything important or weighty.
True about "formality" - especially for me, I use long-form emails as documentation. Screenshots, links, backgrounds, explanations - that if required, I can then later paste into a document. While I was "always like this" (sorry not sorry), it firmed-up when I was required as a roving "field engineer" to prepare end-of-day detailed status reports when onsite with clients.
Unless and until there's a suitable alternative, you can pry emails from my cold dead fingers.
A lot of businesses view human errors that a system has as something to complain at the users about and put policy around to stop it from happening, this does not work. Equally banning an essential technology doesn't solve the problem because people still need a mechanism for sending messages asynchronously to each other.
The issue is about the user interface of the clients. The problem with email is that no one really makes any money out of it. Its a mature and stagnant technology and it gets little investment. People want to pay as little as possible for something that you can get from Google for "free". But the issues are all to do with the user interface and defending people from relatively rare errors because people misclicked and misunderstood the impact.There are very common features of email that should be nice and quick and there are features rarely used that cause a lot of problems and the happy path should be slowed and made more difficult to do accidentally and without knowledge of the potential impact.
But the issue is the maturity and lack of investment because otherwise these problem features like CC would be handled better and there are numerous ways it could be made safer and errors a lot less likely.
The issue is about the user interface of the clients. The problem with email is that no one really makes any money out of it. Its a mature and stagnant technology and it gets little investment. People want to pay as little as possible for something that you can get from Google for "free". But the issues are all to do with the user interface and defending people from relatively rare errors because people misclicked and misunderstood the impact.There are very common features of email that should be nice and quick and there are features rarely used that cause a lot of problems and the happy path should be slowed and made more difficult to do accidentally and without knowledge of the potential impact.
But the issue is the maturity and lack of investment because otherwise these problem features like CC would be handled better and there are numerous ways it could be made safer and errors a lot less likely.
Email is one of the few protocols that was designed out of the box to be decentralized, that in the mean time is implemented by a lot of big tech players and that has stayed compatible for communication between accounts at one of those big tech players. And that is also the reason it won't disappear soon.
And aside from that, what the article mentioned is human error. And honestly, I do not think that other online communication protocols will eliminate human errors.
And aside from that, what the article mentioned is human error. And honestly, I do not think that other online communication protocols will eliminate human errors.
So cc and bcc are the stake in the heart of email, but let's keep sending love notes to the hamburger icon and every other inscrutable piece of dumb junk of which people seem to be able to make sense.
You could argue the same for car driving or financials or any craft...
Leave the protocol alone and use Delta Chat: https://delta.chat/en/
> When was the last time you used carbon paper to make a copy? Have you ever dictated to your secretary who a memorandum should be blind-copied to?
When was the last time you filed a document in a physical folder? Or used a physical clipboard? Have you ever found a physical bug in your computer?
These are all concepts that were once common in the real world, adopted to make computing more familiar and approachable. Whether the physical concepts are still in use is irrelevant. What matters is if the technology is useful, and email most certainly is. Claiming it should banned because some people misuse it is asinine. If anything should be banned because of misuse then it's surely social media, which is actually harmful to society.
When was the last time you filed a document in a physical folder? Or used a physical clipboard? Have you ever found a physical bug in your computer?
These are all concepts that were once common in the real world, adopted to make computing more familiar and approachable. Whether the physical concepts are still in use is irrelevant. What matters is if the technology is useful, and email most certainly is. Claiming it should banned because some people misuse it is asinine. If anything should be banned because of misuse then it's surely social media, which is actually harmful to society.
Most new students don't understand filesystems. https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-direc...
A directory structure is a skeuomorph which doesn't fit in with their search-first workflow.
I've not seen any articles about the clipboard - but I have watched people of all ages copy-type rather than copy 'n' paste.
The technologies you rely on don't match the mental model of most new computer users.
A directory structure is a skeuomorph which doesn't fit in with their search-first workflow.
I've not seen any articles about the clipboard - but I have watched people of all ages copy-type rather than copy 'n' paste.
The technologies you rely on don't match the mental model of most new computer users.
> Most new students don't understand filesystems.
That's not because the file/folder analogies are wrong or outdated, but because they don't use filesystems directly.
My point is that it doesn't matter whether these concepts are used in the real world or not; they're just names. People don't understand the difference between the internet and the web, or why the program they use to access a web site is called a "browser", or even what a web "site" is, etc. Sometimes it's not possible to describe a digital concept using analogous terms from the real world, and that's OK.
What's wrong is dismissing a technology based on the terms it uses, as TFA does.
That's not because the file/folder analogies are wrong or outdated, but because they don't use filesystems directly.
My point is that it doesn't matter whether these concepts are used in the real world or not; they're just names. People don't understand the difference between the internet and the web, or why the program they use to access a web site is called a "browser", or even what a web "site" is, etc. Sometimes it's not possible to describe a digital concept using analogous terms from the real world, and that's OK.
What's wrong is dismissing a technology based on the terms it uses, as TFA does.
well, that was a waste of 3 minutes
Sure let's dump email in favor of a new non-proprietary, open standards, decentralized and non-commercial protocol. Name one If you like.
Jabber/XMMP? I know it doesn't fulfill the same purpose, but since TA is comparing it with instant messaging services I guess it's still relevant.
> Disney's slack enters the room
We'd be way better off banning the asocial media corporate platforms.
Or maybe, just ban bull shit blag posts like this one?
Another advantage of email that the author doesn't mention is the ability to host one's own email. For actual persons and corporate entities.
Of course this would also be so uncool for the hip kids. All we _really_ need are 15 sec videos highlighting the twerk tik "set your balls on fire challenge".
It's funny, right?
Just another example of why I'm so grateful to not have grown up in the internet brain damage era...
The consequences are, sadly, irreversible. The individuals with this condition will likely never recover. It's like starting to give kids cigarettes at age 5, and then expect them to quit on their own in their 20s and 30s. Just not gonna happen. The only hope is for the new generations to have some kids and raise them differently.
Or maybe, just ban bull shit blag posts like this one?
Another advantage of email that the author doesn't mention is the ability to host one's own email. For actual persons and corporate entities.
Of course this would also be so uncool for the hip kids. All we _really_ need are 15 sec videos highlighting the twerk tik "set your balls on fire challenge".
It's funny, right?
Just another example of why I'm so grateful to not have grown up in the internet brain damage era...
The consequences are, sadly, irreversible. The individuals with this condition will likely never recover. It's like starting to give kids cigarettes at age 5, and then expect them to quit on their own in their 20s and 30s. Just not gonna happen. The only hope is for the new generations to have some kids and raise them differently.
I for one am in favor of leaving the protocol alone and using Delta Chat: https://delta.chat/en/
You're a new user, and you've made two comments on this story, adding no context, but promoting the same service.
Is this a legit recommendation? Are you shilling? Are you associated? Help us out.
Is this a legit recommendation? Are you shilling? Are you associated? Help us out.
Ban x because some people, who would undoubtedly struggle with y, struggle with x. Idiotic article.
Bluesky post quoted by TFA: "Friendly reminder to use literally anything other than email if you need to have a conversation between multiple people that you have any hope in following."
Are we backflipping from "this meeting could have been an email" to "this email (thread) could have been a meeting"?
Are we backflipping from "this meeting could have been an email" to "this email (thread) could have been a meeting"?
you'll have to pry it from my cold dead hands dipshit. one of the last remaining protocols that you can a) self-host, and b) reach anybody with, and this person wants to ban it.
Email is a neutral protocol, in a natural monopoly, very hard to replace unless you want to choose a state sanctioned monopoly like you would to Facebook's Whatsapp or Apple's messenger.
This sounds like fatalistic throwing the baby with the bath water, I know that there's a fine line between operator's error and bad system design, but when a piece of technology has been stable for 40 years, and there is a fuck up, you can't reaally blame it on the tech.
If there's really sensitive info like informants or HIV patients, maybe implement some serious access controls so that not even operators have access to that sensitive info.