Ask HN: Is there a point in me getting a CS degree anymore?
39 comments
Answering this directly to you based on what you've said: I would say no. Not even because of the AI consideration (which btw, we're going to be fine), but because you literally said you don't like it anymore.
I would say as far as degrees go that are worth it still even if you hate it, CS is at the very bottom of that list. It is not something you should go into and do just for the money, and it's especially something you shouldn't do if you hate it.
It can be one of the most lucrative fields to get into if you enjoy roughly 60% of it. Any less than that, and it can be one of the most useless things for you to get into.
Going to school for some kind of focused finance or business degree (notice I said focused) could be much better for you (along with getting into agriculture as you're thinking of doing).
I would say as far as degrees go that are worth it still even if you hate it, CS is at the very bottom of that list. It is not something you should go into and do just for the money, and it's especially something you shouldn't do if you hate it.
It can be one of the most lucrative fields to get into if you enjoy roughly 60% of it. Any less than that, and it can be one of the most useless things for you to get into.
Going to school for some kind of focused finance or business degree (notice I said focused) could be much better for you (along with getting into agriculture as you're thinking of doing).
If you were getting a CS degree in order to get a job, you were already on the wrong path. Get a degree if you want the education for its own sake. The existence of AI does not change that, and if you want to be involved in creating future AI, that education will be valuable.
But it sounds like you already know your answer. You don't love programming, and you are interested in agriculture, including a vision for where that path can take you.
But it sounds like you already know your answer. You don't love programming, and you are interested in agriculture, including a vision for where that path can take you.
> If you were getting a CS degree in order to get a job, you were already on the wrong path. Get a degree if you want the education for its own sake.
I get where you're coming from but degrees (or any other education) are kind of a necessity, a means to an end. Getting a degree to pursuit a certain career sounds completely reasonable to me. Of course its a bad idea if you hate the field, but you don't need to madly love it either.
I get where you're coming from but degrees (or any other education) are kind of a necessity, a means to an end. Getting a degree to pursuit a certain career sounds completely reasonable to me. Of course its a bad idea if you hate the field, but you don't need to madly love it either.
I have no doubt programming jobs exist out there that require a degree, but the vast majority do not - nor do they even seem to prefer it. I think calling them a necessity in this field is a really big stretch.
> Get a degree if you want the education for its own sake.
Most people can’t afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars to get an “education for its own sake” and go to school so they can convince some entity with money to give them some of that money in exchange for labor. They can then take that money to exchange for goods and services.
Most people can’t afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars to get an “education for its own sake” and go to school so they can convince some entity with money to give them some of that money in exchange for labor. They can then take that money to exchange for goods and services.
In Germany, higher education costs a few hundred bucks per six months (plus CoL obviously). Also gets you a train ticket. Probably similar in other European countries.
Not everyone lives in the US, like OP.
So do you not need to work for a living in other countries? Are they giving out high paying jobs in other countries for people who graduated with degrees in Ancient Chinese Art History?
I was referring to the "tens of thousands" part, I make no assumption on whether a company will give you a job or not based on your degree, that is always variable.
Fair enough. But that doesn’t change the idea that going to college should ultimately be about increasing your chances to be employed not an education for education’s sake
The current leap in research and its byproduct like ChatGPT are impressive (in the sense that it can pick up human text/speech and return back answers). But its not in any way a replacement for good Software Engineers, your job is safe (what is being posted on social media and news is extreme hype).
Here's the funny thing, if you ask people who interact with chat bots in any given service industry (banks, online orders...etc) they'll tell you how bad these things are, there is just no replacement for actual human beings with real life intuition (this kind of AI break through hasn't happened yet).
For the time being if you take time to specialize in a domain knowledge skill (physics, math, economy, or even agriculture) you'll be able to use the skills you learn from your CS degree in that domain and prosper as a result.
Here is the thing about pursuing a degree, it is a tedious awful long task. It doesnt actually look like the actual job you'll be doing when you finish this degree.
I'll go against the common advice and say, stick to it, finish the degree because it will give you good social mobility (when trying to travel for work to any country in the world, you'll either need to be a specialist in your field with few years experience or have at minimum a bachelor degree).
Here's the funny thing, if you ask people who interact with chat bots in any given service industry (banks, online orders...etc) they'll tell you how bad these things are, there is just no replacement for actual human beings with real life intuition (this kind of AI break through hasn't happened yet).
For the time being if you take time to specialize in a domain knowledge skill (physics, math, economy, or even agriculture) you'll be able to use the skills you learn from your CS degree in that domain and prosper as a result.
Here is the thing about pursuing a degree, it is a tedious awful long task. It doesnt actually look like the actual job you'll be doing when you finish this degree.
I'll go against the common advice and say, stick to it, finish the degree because it will give you good social mobility (when trying to travel for work to any country in the world, you'll either need to be a specialist in your field with few years experience or have at minimum a bachelor degree).
None of the modern chatbots that banks and online orders use are LLM based they are basically all low tech pattern matchers where they are given phrases to match on (utterances) with placeholders for the variable parts (slots) and then match those to intents. It’s in no shape form or fashion AI and accept for the voice to text part is 1960s technology.
>I'll go against the common advice and say, stick to it, finish the degree because it will give you good social mobility (when trying to travel for work to any country in the world, you'll either need to be a specialist in your field with few years experience or have at minimum a bachelor degree).
I don't like being a salaried employee (nor do I plan to become one, long term), but I might just finish my degree because life happens and there may be a time when I'll have to search for a job like that one day. So, purely as a backup option and because the sheepskin effect is very real
I don't like being a salaried employee (nor do I plan to become one, long term), but I might just finish my degree because life happens and there may be a time when I'll have to search for a job like that one day. So, purely as a backup option and because the sheepskin effect is very real
A bachelors degree is often required by employers, with no attention given to what the degree is for. The education itself is not needed, just what economists call costly signaling. It's useful to show to potential employers that you were able to dedicate years of your life to a full-time task, without unplanned interruption, that generated no income, proving that you will be more of a contribution than a burden to potential employers.
If you want to go a route that requires a bachelors degree, get it in whatever you find interesting. If you want to be self employed, or to work for an employer that doesn't care about the degree, then don't get one.
I don't know if by "getting into agriculture" you mean running a farm itself, or if the farmers would be your customers, and I don't know if the situation is different in Europe, but in the US, running a farm is almost never profitable, even with government subsidies, but selling equipment and services to farmer can be very profitable.
If you want to go a route that requires a bachelors degree, get it in whatever you find interesting. If you want to be self employed, or to work for an employer that doesn't care about the degree, then don't get one.
I don't know if by "getting into agriculture" you mean running a farm itself, or if the farmers would be your customers, and I don't know if the situation is different in Europe, but in the US, running a farm is almost never profitable, even with government subsidies, but selling equipment and services to farmer can be very profitable.
>I don't know if by "getting into agriculture" you mean running a farm itself, or if the farmers would be your customers, and I don't know if the situation is different in Europe, but in the US, running a farm is almost never profitable, even with government subsidies, but selling equipment and services to farmer can be very profitable.
I was thinking of getting into growing crops. My parents are in that field, and even though they have a lot of work, and stress associated with the work, they're pretty well-off. A big positive to their work is that during these colder months, they have nearly no work, so lots of free time to recuperate and do whatever else they want. So, for whatever reason, unlike the US, it seems to be decently profitable here
Also, if I do go down this road, I was thinking of starting an egg farm on the side as well for extra cash, particularly during winter when there's no work in the fields
I'm not against the idea of selling services and/or equipment, but for my local area and for the time being, I don't think I'd be able to sustain myself just by doing that, i.e there's not a lot of demand to justify the costs of running that kind of an operation, from a cursory look
I was thinking of getting into growing crops. My parents are in that field, and even though they have a lot of work, and stress associated with the work, they're pretty well-off. A big positive to their work is that during these colder months, they have nearly no work, so lots of free time to recuperate and do whatever else they want. So, for whatever reason, unlike the US, it seems to be decently profitable here
Also, if I do go down this road, I was thinking of starting an egg farm on the side as well for extra cash, particularly during winter when there's no work in the fields
I'm not against the idea of selling services and/or equipment, but for my local area and for the time being, I don't think I'd be able to sustain myself just by doing that, i.e there's not a lot of demand to justify the costs of running that kind of an operation, from a cursory look
Don't believe the goofballs. AI isn't close to replacing software engineers. And if it is, then it's just going to build the robots that replace agriculture jobs too, so nothing's really safe.
If you don't like studying CS, then switch to something else. But if it does feel rewarding, then get your grades back up. Better to graduate and be good at something, even if you wind up doing something else with your life.
If you don't like studying CS, then switch to something else. But if it does feel rewarding, then get your grades back up. Better to graduate and be good at something, even if you wind up doing something else with your life.
"then it's just going to build the robots that replace agriculture jobs too, so nothing's really safe."
Ironically, there has always been more robots doing agriculture jobs than software jobs. But people do agriculture to escape the bots.
Software bots have often just created more software jobs. Agriculture robots have often just taken more farmhand jobs. Agriculture today is far, far more profitable than it used to be because of the bots. But people don't think the software bots are going to make software jobs profitable, even though all the automation thus far have pushed engineering salaries and demand up.
Ironically, there has always been more robots doing agriculture jobs than software jobs. But people do agriculture to escape the bots.
Software bots have often just created more software jobs. Agriculture robots have often just taken more farmhand jobs. Agriculture today is far, far more profitable than it used to be because of the bots. But people don't think the software bots are going to make software jobs profitable, even though all the automation thus far have pushed engineering salaries and demand up.
Look at what crowd is saying.
Crowd is usually wrong or at least off the point.
Im tired of repeating this over and over but there is no real “i” in current AI.
It’s nothing but a fancy advanced auto complete in the hands of a good software engineer (and even that is half the time bad and requires skills and experience).
If your goal is to become an engineer - you’re safe in any predictable future.
Because there is not yet developed even a theory of anything that is capable of actually solving any meaningful engineering challenges
Im tired of repeating this over and over but there is no real “i” in current AI.
It’s nothing but a fancy advanced auto complete in the hands of a good software engineer (and even that is half the time bad and requires skills and experience).
If your goal is to become an engineer - you’re safe in any predictable future.
Because there is not yet developed even a theory of anything that is capable of actually solving any meaningful engineering challenges
This attitude neglects the nature of the professional development pipeline, and the front-loaded benefits companies receive from preferential debt so they don't have to react immediately to issues (they are decoupled).
The entry level tasks are tasks that are supervised by the mid to senior level people for correctness. Institutional knowledge and skills are passed on in these positions.
The tasks while simple, can be very easily solved in most cases at this level by AI. AI can easily replace these positions instead of having people.
In effect though, it removes any new people from entering that developmental pipeline. In so doing you remove the demand for such people lowering ROI, and create an economic incentive to not develop new people in that area, and this applies to everywhere that AI touches.
In the 3-year shelf life the business benefits from the reduction of labor costs.
The company can persist for a time thanks to financial engineering, but within 5-10 years, costs explode, demand for the mid to senior positions explodes because the pool of labor shrinks as people age out and die.
AI cannot replace the mid to senior people, but that won't matter. It is sufficient for failure to occur simply by preventing new labor from entering the market. It will also be too late to develop people at the time people realize this.
The problem isn't in solving meaningful engineering challenges. Its with developing the basic skills needed to do that in the first place. You aren't expected to solve meaningful engineering challenges in an entry level position.
The danger isn't in AI taking over all of our jobs. The danger is in cutting the development pipeline off in such a way that cascading failures lead to cascading production failures. Like a dam break or avalanche, once triggered.
Most business people don't consider consequences longer than a 1-3 year period. Short term gains are always taken with long term losses locked in. Thats just part of the nature of fiat based inflationary economies. No effort or thought is given towards existential threats, without a corresponding loss of life.
Safety rules are written in blood.
The entry level tasks are tasks that are supervised by the mid to senior level people for correctness. Institutional knowledge and skills are passed on in these positions.
The tasks while simple, can be very easily solved in most cases at this level by AI. AI can easily replace these positions instead of having people.
In effect though, it removes any new people from entering that developmental pipeline. In so doing you remove the demand for such people lowering ROI, and create an economic incentive to not develop new people in that area, and this applies to everywhere that AI touches.
In the 3-year shelf life the business benefits from the reduction of labor costs.
The company can persist for a time thanks to financial engineering, but within 5-10 years, costs explode, demand for the mid to senior positions explodes because the pool of labor shrinks as people age out and die.
AI cannot replace the mid to senior people, but that won't matter. It is sufficient for failure to occur simply by preventing new labor from entering the market. It will also be too late to develop people at the time people realize this.
The problem isn't in solving meaningful engineering challenges. Its with developing the basic skills needed to do that in the first place. You aren't expected to solve meaningful engineering challenges in an entry level position.
The danger isn't in AI taking over all of our jobs. The danger is in cutting the development pipeline off in such a way that cascading failures lead to cascading production failures. Like a dam break or avalanche, once triggered.
Most business people don't consider consequences longer than a 1-3 year period. Short term gains are always taken with long term losses locked in. Thats just part of the nature of fiat based inflationary economies. No effort or thought is given towards existential threats, without a corresponding loss of life.
Safety rules are written in blood.
I believe that knowing the fundamentals of computer science will always be important in technology, no matter how the field changes. Remember, computer science != programming.
You seem super excited about going into agriculture. Ag-Tech is a growing industry that will require engineers, especially as our climate changes. Having practical experience will make you competitive!
You seem super excited about going into agriculture. Ag-Tech is a growing industry that will require engineers, especially as our climate changes. Having practical experience will make you competitive!
You have once in a lifetime opportunity to get a paper proving you know something. When you get older that opportunity will be gone. Sure, some people will tell you this is not true and that you can get it later too. It's 0.01% that really does this, no matter how much people will try to convince you it's not true.
Once your age window is over so is your chance to get your degree. Whether you need it or not. And when you are older you will thank your younger self that you did it. Or you will regret you dropped. Most likely you will not regret having it.
Don't let temporary emotional cloud or fears changing your life trajectory.
Once your age window is over so is your chance to get your degree. Whether you need it or not. And when you are older you will thank your younger self that you did it. Or you will regret you dropped. Most likely you will not regret having it.
Don't let temporary emotional cloud or fears changing your life trajectory.
Jobs that involve sitting in front of a computer in an office, are all at risk of being replaced by AI. Can't predict what will happen to all the middle managers and how they will justify their jobs - AI could have replaced most of them years ago.
Based on what little I know, in Europe you need a degree in order to get good jobs. But employment opportunities for CS graduates might change in the future. You really need to do research into this in your country/city - unless you are planning to relocate.
Since you prefer self-employment, why not simply research more deeply into the areas of agriculture that you are attracted to? Once you better understand the constraints, you will be in a better position to assess whether a CS degree, or any other degree for that matter, will be of benefit.
Based on what little I know, in Europe you need a degree in order to get good jobs. But employment opportunities for CS graduates might change in the future. You really need to do research into this in your country/city - unless you are planning to relocate.
Since you prefer self-employment, why not simply research more deeply into the areas of agriculture that you are attracted to? Once you better understand the constraints, you will be in a better position to assess whether a CS degree, or any other degree for that matter, will be of benefit.
I don’t think the fundamental issue here is actually about AI. It’s about whether you want to finish getting your degree now, because you have realized that you might not like the field.
I think this because I had very similar thought patterns a decade ago when I was in college and considered dropping out. This was obviously long before AI, and I don’t have a degree in CS regardless.
So my advice is: just finish it. I also spent tons of time ruminating over the perfect degree situation, and ultimately you’ll realize that it’s kind of a waste of time. Just finish the degree and get a job you want to get. You’ll barely think about college at all 5-10 years after graduating.
I think this because I had very similar thought patterns a decade ago when I was in college and considered dropping out. This was obviously long before AI, and I don’t have a degree in CS regardless.
So my advice is: just finish it. I also spent tons of time ruminating over the perfect degree situation, and ultimately you’ll realize that it’s kind of a waste of time. Just finish the degree and get a job you want to get. You’ll barely think about college at all 5-10 years after graduating.
I'll add that 5-10 years is exactly when I started thinking about school again and decided to go for a graduate degree. I went to grad school for my own reasons and paid for it myself, partially to fend off boot camp and junior developers, but much more importantly to empower myself and learn how to solve more challenging problems.
I agree though, don't overthink the degree unless you need a specific accreditation like ABET or something medical.
I agree though, don't overthink the degree unless you need a specific accreditation like ABET or something medical.
Thanks for your thoughts. I'll probably finish it
The LLM-craze will pass.
It's not remotely interesting to me either.
I am more interested in human centric automation.
Techne is the Greek word for hand.
Technology is literally an extension of our hands.
Dystopian Silicone Valley schlock appears to me as a symbol of decadence and the waning power of an empire in the throes of giving Caesar absolute power. Look at these clownish CEOS, like Musk, Altman...
Is there software to build? Yes. Do LLMs replace software engineers? No. Will they ever? No. They are pattern extraction machines, nothing more.
Is there software to build? Yes. Do LLMs replace software engineers? No. Will they ever? No. They are pattern extraction machines, nothing more.
Just curious, but do you think LLMs have the ability to significantly increase the productivity of a person who generates code to produce business results (note, I was very careful to not say “software engineer”)?
Over 1 year ago you really liked it and now you do not? That is a worrisome sign! I would recommend investigating that a bit, before making any rash decisions.
If you are letting the news get to you personally, then dropping out of school certainly is not going to help! There will always be narratives pushed in the media, designed to manipulate people. Don't let that run your life!
While AI won’t replace all software engineers, it will exasperate the problem of companies not wanting to hire junior engineers and make it even harder to break the can’t get a job <-> don’t have experience cycle.
The market for software developers is already saturated and it’s going to take years for it to balance out.
The market for software developers is already saturated and it’s going to take years for it to balance out.
So, why not get CS with AI concentration and then demo that CS knowledge via applied applications in agriculture? (or agriculture with minor in CS related 'computer' technology)
Apply the 'CS' to reduce the demanding agriculture factors (which sounds more agriculture/mechanical related degree)
Apply the 'CS' to reduce the demanding agriculture factors (which sounds more agriculture/mechanical related degree)
Consider pivoting to the physical engineering disciplines. For one, there is much less competition. For two, AI will not replace physical engineering anytime soon.
You can be in the field and get your hands dirty with engineering.
You can be in the field and get your hands dirty with engineering.
Robots will get into agriculture very soon, most likely within 2-4 years. But owning an automated farm or a food processing factory isn’t a bad idea - I’d work towards that if I were you.
Robots are already in agriculture, they are using drones in Thailand/Singapore iirc.
Automation and AI use in these respects contributes to a far greater problem, the socialist calculation problem.
Automation and AI use in these respects contributes to a far greater problem, the socialist calculation problem.
They might not be robots as we see them. But machines doing harvesting, planting, tiling, fertilizing, spreading various cides are already hugely automated and basically can run themselves with light supervision.
The point of a degree is to reap a return on investment for getting the degree. An important part of that is enjoying the work.
While AI cannot replace some aspects of a CS degree, AI can and does replace the entry level position tasks quite easily in most white collar work. There will be no industry unimpacted long term.
Agriculture seems like a good bet until you actually spend some time on a farm with people who work in the business. Many farms operations are financed, and having setbacks amounts to owing debt if the circumstances like climate change impact you.
With agriculture you also have additional cost mainly related to government regulation for safety, and costs from monopolies on repairs for specific equipment you need to do your job. Like what's happening with John Deere.
Its not nearly as free to market as you seem to think it is. Soil conservation efforts where the government subsidizes you to not grow anything have been a thing in the past, to raise the price on certain goods, and there is always the risk that in an unforeseen emergency that your production is seized.
They haven't done it to date (afaik), but the laws are in place, in many localities, so they can do this.
Being a code monkey is definitely a dead end job.
You might look into vocational training, maybe retrain in a trade like plumbing, hvac, pool maintenance, welding, etc. Its doubtful that AI will take over these jobs.
Something where you develop useful skills.
While AI cannot replace some aspects of a CS degree, AI can and does replace the entry level position tasks quite easily in most white collar work. There will be no industry unimpacted long term.
Agriculture seems like a good bet until you actually spend some time on a farm with people who work in the business. Many farms operations are financed, and having setbacks amounts to owing debt if the circumstances like climate change impact you.
With agriculture you also have additional cost mainly related to government regulation for safety, and costs from monopolies on repairs for specific equipment you need to do your job. Like what's happening with John Deere.
Its not nearly as free to market as you seem to think it is. Soil conservation efforts where the government subsidizes you to not grow anything have been a thing in the past, to raise the price on certain goods, and there is always the risk that in an unforeseen emergency that your production is seized.
They haven't done it to date (afaik), but the laws are in place, in many localities, so they can do this.
Being a code monkey is definitely a dead end job.
You might look into vocational training, maybe retrain in a trade like plumbing, hvac, pool maintenance, welding, etc. Its doubtful that AI will take over these jobs.
Something where you develop useful skills.
>Its not nearly as free to market as you seem to think it is. Soil conservation efforts where the government subsidizes you to not grow anything have been a thing in the past, to raise the price on certain goods, and there is always the risk that in an unforeseen emergency that your production is seized.
I'm from a European, but non-EU country and I used to study law before this, and no such regulation exists here, as far as I know, so I'm good there
Also, my parents do agriculture work so I know a few things about it, having helped them with their work
>You might look into vocational training, maybe retrain in a trade like plumbing, hvac, pool maintenance, welding, etc. Its doubtful that AI will take over these jobs.
I know how to weld, but poorly. I can always get better though, so it's not a big challenge for me
I'm from a European, but non-EU country and I used to study law before this, and no such regulation exists here, as far as I know, so I'm good there
Also, my parents do agriculture work so I know a few things about it, having helped them with their work
>You might look into vocational training, maybe retrain in a trade like plumbing, hvac, pool maintenance, welding, etc. Its doubtful that AI will take over these jobs.
I know how to weld, but poorly. I can always get better though, so it's not a big challenge for me
A degree is like good looking face. You might not gain much by just having a good looking face, but not having one, is a debuff for life.
However with all the news surrounding tech lately, mainly the advancement of AI, I've become somewhat discouraged about this whole field, and as I result I haven't been putting a lot of effort into my studies, to put it lightly. I'm barely getting passing grades. Over the previous spring and summer, before switching majors, I did a Web Dev bootcamp and I really enjoyed programming with the abomination that is JavaScript, but now I don't even like programming anymore.
I will not consider going back to my old major, since it's easily replaceable by AI.
I'm thinking of getting into agriculture (I have the necessary capital) and going down that line of work/self-employment (which I vastly prefer over being a salaried employee.)
Sure it can be physically demanding work (which I don't mind), but I don't see AI getting to that anytime soon (and to the extent that it's gotten into tech as we know it), and I have done that kind of work in the past and it's just inherently more fulfilling than staring into a computer screen, to me. Plus, it pays fine-ish and it can pay very well if, down the line, I open a food processing factory.
Any advice or thoughts you have to offer?