Waydroid – Android in a Linux container(waydro.id)
waydro.id
Waydroid – Android in a Linux container
https://waydro.id/
157 comments
I wouldn't say it runs a "random ROM from the internet" - LineageOS is a very well-established project and is fully FOSS (free and open source software) except for firmware necessary for specific devices. It is the natural choice for any project, such as Waydroid, that requires good community support and ongoing availability.
Over a number of years, Google have progressively removed many of the original parts of AOSP (the FOSS foundation upon which Android is based), which means that alternative components have to be developed by projects like LineageOS. In spite of this, I suspect that LineageOS makes fewer modifications to AOSP than most phone vendors do, including Google themselves!
Over a number of years, Google have progressively removed many of the original parts of AOSP (the FOSS foundation upon which Android is based), which means that alternative components have to be developed by projects like LineageOS. In spite of this, I suspect that LineageOS makes fewer modifications to AOSP than most phone vendors do, including Google themselves!
Just had a conversation about this on a waydroid github issue. The LineageOS X86 image is outdated compared to also open source Bliss OS' Android 12.
/? Android play store APK GitHub actions
It looks like Android Emulator has the most current version of Android that will run on x86?
/? Android play store APK GitHub actions
It looks like Android Emulator has the most current version of Android that will run on x86?
Would you hire a well known electrician who was not bonded and insured? Sometimes it's nice to know there is more than blind trust.
Let's assume you have a ROM straight from Google, and they've actually given you some meaningful promise to support it. How exactly are you running it? Because I'm quite confident that waydroid isn't "bonded and insured", and I rather doubt you're running on top of an operating system that is. So it seems like an odd sticking point.
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What software are you using that has a parent company that pays out damages to you if it fails?
Because that is the purpose of 'bonded and insured'.
I haven't looked at every EULA and license of every piece of software I use, but I bet that "without warranty" clauses are part of every single one of them.
Because that is the purpose of 'bonded and insured'.
I haven't looked at every EULA and license of every piece of software I use, but I bet that "without warranty" clauses are part of every single one of them.
There's no phone on earth which runs AOSP so it's the same on a real phone, you put a blind trust on the phone manufacturer.
It's FOSS, you're more than welcome to inspect the code yourself
They may not want to do that, just like they may not want to fix their own electrical issues.
You’re sidestepping their point of professionalism and attempting to shove in something else.
You’re sidestepping their point of professionalism and attempting to shove in something else.
The FLOSS license allows you to rely on the community for the verification.
You are, once again, sidestepping their point.
They are saying they want a verified authority, not "the community".
They are saying they want a verified authority, not "the community".
You're already running this on top of Linux. You're already relying on community support, unless you got scammed by Canonical[1] or RedHat^W IBM[2].
[1]: https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/linux/Ubuntu2404Bpf...
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehomag
[1]: https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/linux/Ubuntu2404Bpf...
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehomag
This isn't about support, this is about trusting the download.
If I get Ubuntu or Debian or download the mainline kernel, I'm trusting specific entities. That's very different from a vague idea that it's open source and hopefully someone checked if this particular random guy on github is putting out legitimate builds.
If I get Ubuntu or Debian or download the mainline kernel, I'm trusting specific entities. That's very different from a vague idea that it's open source and hopefully someone checked if this particular random guy on github is putting out legitimate builds.
As I recall, studies have looked into this, and the bystander effect in open source is very real.
"You can view the source on GitHub" is very different than "A knowledgable person has audited the millions of lines of source code and confirmed that nobody added anything shady or stupid." People often don't take the time to comprehend all the source of the things they depend on, especially for large dependencies and/or prototyping-scale projects.
"You can view the source on GitHub" is very different than "A knowledgable person has audited the millions of lines of source code and confirmed that nobody added anything shady or stupid." People often don't take the time to comprehend all the source of the things they depend on, especially for large dependencies and/or prototyping-scale projects.
> the bystander effect in open source is very real.
Outside of open source, it was a NYT excuse for the NYPD failing to save Kitty Genovese. The number of witnesses was greatly exaggerated, and the police were called at least once.
I don't think you mean to refer to the bystander effect, because the bystander effect says that the likelihood of intervention goes down as the number of bystanders goes up. You don't seem to be arguing that people are less likely to look at the source because the source is available to more people. More just claiming that people don't look at the source as often as you would like? That open source isn't always perfectly bug and backdoor free? Because I don't know if:
> "A knowledgable person has audited the millions of lines of source code and confirmed that nobody added anything shady or stupid."
Has been claimed about many large pieces of software, proprietary or not.
Outside of open source, it was a NYT excuse for the NYPD failing to save Kitty Genovese. The number of witnesses was greatly exaggerated, and the police were called at least once.
I don't think you mean to refer to the bystander effect, because the bystander effect says that the likelihood of intervention goes down as the number of bystanders goes up. You don't seem to be arguing that people are less likely to look at the source because the source is available to more people. More just claiming that people don't look at the source as often as you would like? That open source isn't always perfectly bug and backdoor free? Because I don't know if:
> "A knowledgable person has audited the millions of lines of source code and confirmed that nobody added anything shady or stupid."
Has been claimed about many large pieces of software, proprietary or not.
It's a solvable problem.
1. Fully automated and reproducible builds, bootstrapped through a verifiable chain. GNU Guix has done this: https://guix.gnu.org/en/blog/2023/the-full-source-bootstrap-...
2. Unapologetically, ruthlessly, and tirelessly simplify the software. Suckless.org is a bit on the extreme end, but I continue to be impressed by OpenBSD - it strikes a beautiful balance between clarity and function. They've also meticulously combed the entire source tree around 2010, looking for any signs of the supposed FBI backdoor.
It takes a lot of motivation to do either, let alone both. The financial incentives are elsewhere. But it's been (and being) done.
1. Fully automated and reproducible builds, bootstrapped through a verifiable chain. GNU Guix has done this: https://guix.gnu.org/en/blog/2023/the-full-source-bootstrap-...
2. Unapologetically, ruthlessly, and tirelessly simplify the software. Suckless.org is a bit on the extreme end, but I continue to be impressed by OpenBSD - it strikes a beautiful balance between clarity and function. They've also meticulously combed the entire source tree around 2010, looking for any signs of the supposed FBI backdoor.
It takes a lot of motivation to do either, let alone both. The financial incentives are elsewhere. But it's been (and being) done.
Disregarding the contributions of some of the biggest players in Linux/OSS has me immediately disregarding your comment.
You can for sure like whatever homegrown community Linux distro you want. It doesn't remove the work those players have done. :)
You can for sure like whatever homegrown community Linux distro you want. It doesn't remove the work those players have done. :)
You've disregarded it so much that you felt compelled to respond.
Whatever track record these companies might have had, doesn't justify their current stance or actions. Hans Reiser also made a pretty darn good filesystem - before he murdered his wife.
Whatever track record these companies might have had, doesn't justify their current stance or actions. Hans Reiser also made a pretty darn good filesystem - before he murdered his wife.
Exactly what 'authority' would be sufficient here?
That's for OP to chime in on. I'm just pointing out that the person I'm responding to is missing the point of OPs post entirely.
Alright, just give me 5 minutes to quickly inspect the likely over 100,000,000 lines of code that either go directly into a ROM or are part of the build tooling, and reverse engineer however many binary blobs are involved in the process.
The "you can just read the code" mindset is completely unrealistic, even for software that's orders of magnitudes smaller. If the issue at hand is entering my Google password, I'd rather do it in a ROM built by Google.
The "you can just read the code" mindset is completely unrealistic, even for software that's orders of magnitudes smaller. If the issue at hand is entering my Google password, I'd rather do it in a ROM built by Google.
Use some LLM which is good at understanding code/coding, maybe supervised by one which is good at reasoning.
Different industries have different standard procedures. A huge portion of the world's internet relies on FOSS software, and none of those are insured.
Community reputation is the current _de facto_ standard for consumer-facing software, even for stuff sold by big corporations. There's not much else to rely on.
Community reputation is the current _de facto_ standard for consumer-facing software, even for stuff sold by big corporations. There's not much else to rely on.
Is it random though? LineageOS is a pretty established project. I am generally more wary of typing any personal information into an image vended by Google because it is their primary, core business model to collect my data and show me ads.
To be honest I trust LineageOS more than I trust any Google-vended image.
FYI, Firefox has also been on the front page before, it's allowed. :)
Google provides one that runs in Docker
Isn't GSI (Project Treble) effectively now a way for Google to force deprecate the vendor bits (ex: HAL/vendor drivers)? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32116819
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What I’d love to see is a containerized android that can be fired up on a Mac (using docker desktop or orbstack or whatever) that I can modify the docker image of to have rooted man in the middle proxy already setup, making it much easier to drop an Android app onto to observe the network traffic and api calls.
If you want to do this now with little setup, run waydroid and then run wireshark inside the network namespace that is created for waydroid
sudo ip netns exec <netns> wireshark
sudo ip netns exec <netns> wireshark
Wireshark is nice, but for HTTPS MitM you'll need a tool like mitmproxy/Burp to do the proxying and either modifications to the system image or a Frida daemon running as root to make most apps trust the MitM'd certificates.
To get the traffic routed right, the Wireguard option for mitmproxy is pretty useful in my experience. Not sure how well Waydroid + Android VPNs work together, though.
To get the traffic routed right, the Wireguard option for mitmproxy is pretty useful in my experience. Not sure how well Waydroid + Android VPNs work together, though.
There's also certificate pinning which is done by basically every modern android app so you often need to modify apk to remove that. Httptoolkit has a good blog on the process: https://httptoolkit.com/blog/frida-certificate-pinning/
With root access, Frida can patch applications in memory, so you don't need to mess with the APK file.
If root is not an option, injecting Frida into the APK will work (but that might break applications that verify signatures).
If root is not an option, injecting Frida into the APK will work (but that might break applications that verify signatures).
What do you mean by the Wireguard option for mitmproxy?
EDIT: Oh, look at this https://mitmproxy.org/posts/wireguard-mode/. TIL.
EDIT: Oh, look at this https://mitmproxy.org/posts/wireguard-mode/. TIL.
It's a pretty neat feature! I think it's in beta but it works flawlessly in my experience. Sure is a lot easier than setting up a separate (W)LAN with iptables rules to force redirect traffic.
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Not sure about the proxy setup, but redroid is basically android in a docker container.
This was the basis of how FuriLabs managed to get such good Android app integration. Obviously they’ve forked it [0] and heavily modified it, but the user experience they’ve created with this to allow Android apps on a Linux phone has been great.
[0] https://github.com/FuriLabs/waydroid
[0] https://github.com/FuriLabs/waydroid
Hi, Jesus from FuriLabs here! We're just winding down from FOSDEM but happy to answer any questions & feedback :)
My biggest question is: why haven’t you guys advertised yourselves more? I’ve heard of liberem and the pinephone but never knew you guys had a phone? With half-decent hardware and actual water proofing?? I swear if I had the disposable cash I’d have bought one (and I hope to anyway soon).
Ok, here’s a more typical question: I’ve heard your phone uses halium, what exactly is it? Some kind of hardware abstraction layer? Some people online appear to dislike it. (And googling unfortunately gives very few links that aren’t super technical.)
Ok, here’s a more typical question: I’ve heard your phone uses halium, what exactly is it? Some kind of hardware abstraction layer? Some people online appear to dislike it. (And googling unfortunately gives very few links that aren’t super technical.)
I'd say it just boils down to... we're not great at marketing. We're working on it but it's hard to get the word out, especially since many people are dismissive of Linux phones after having had previous experiences with incomplete devices.
Halium/libhybris are basically layers that allow us to use Android hardware drivers with a GNU/Linux userspace. Some Android bits run inside a container to provide support for peripherals. This is kinda a stop gap solution since we're working on native implementations and replacements for much of this stuff.
Some people dislike it because it's not a "pure Linux phone". But the alternative would be to ship a device that can't even place calls or take pictures, so... I think it's a good middle ground that allows us to ship something useful today.
Halium/libhybris are basically layers that allow us to use Android hardware drivers with a GNU/Linux userspace. Some Android bits run inside a container to provide support for peripherals. This is kinda a stop gap solution since we're working on native implementations and replacements for much of this stuff.
Some people dislike it because it's not a "pure Linux phone". But the alternative would be to ship a device that can't even place calls or take pictures, so... I think it's a good middle ground that allows us to ship something useful today.
I kinda feel bad for you guys when I first saw your site and compared it's polished look vs Pine64's here's the board schematics & community distros I thought I was looking at a scam. Your HN presence and second look at your site, blog and realising you had a Github definatly help your case! Any plans on selling repair parts or publishing pcb diagrams? Also I didn't see this on the site, whats the features on the usbc port? Learning of the Pinephone's display out was the transition from 'this maybe a way to dump Andriod/IOs' to 'pocket laptop must have now' for me.
They’ve been noted in a few HN threads before, FWIW.
And in the news today:
https://www.theregister.com/2025/02/03/furiphone_flx1/
https://www.theregister.com/2025/02/03/furiphone_flx1/
I know I'm late to the discussion but can you comment on the hearing aid compatibility (HAC) of the phone? It's something that keeps me tethered to bigger name phones since most of the time smaller companies don't even know what that is...
I'm interested in why the linked implementation is different or enhanced. There is nothing on the readme and I guess I would need to track down a summary of the talk
Waydroid is currently focusing on desktop usage, whereas our fork focuses around usability improvements for the mobile use case specifically. There are a lot of small things that all come together - stuff like NFC passthrough, power efficiency optimizations, MPRIS support, etc. It'd be hard to condense everything into a small explanation, but it's basically been a matter of polishing rough edges.
Will that stuff end up upstream at some point, and if not, where's the bottleneck?
Your project certainly looks very interesting! Any chance of another device with a smaller form factor sometime in the future? This one is huge :)
What's the difference between FuriLabs and all the other Linux phones that have 1 hour of battery life and no app support?
FuriLabs' phone runs libhybris (OEM android kernel) instead of attempting a native port. Hardware enablement is outsourced.
> all the other Linux phones that have 1 hour of battery life and no app support?
... Which phones would that be? Even the original pinephone exceeds an hour and has a pretty good collection of apps even without compatibility layers.
... Which phones would that be? Even the original pinephone exceeds an hour and has a pretty good collection of apps even without compatibility layers.
Indeed; I have an original PinePhone (convergence edition) and the battery is not half bad while you are using it. I think the main issue has been poor software support for wake-from-suspend, which prevented the phone from saving power when not in use. I believe that these issues have been largely resolved in the latest versions of PostmarketOS, Mobian etc.
FYI, going to suspend / receiving calls during suspend / waking from suspend haven't been a general problem on the (non-Pro) PinePhone since 2021. You just have to make sure to switch to the FOSS modem firmware, and occasionally there are regressions (the most recent one being https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mobile-broadband/ModemManager... ).
FLX1 is fast. It’s useful. It has regular updates that improve experience. Battery lasts 1.5 days with moderate usage.
The Furiphone FLX1 makes heavy use of this and it is amazing. I can do most things I'd want a real android phone for (which is not much, admittedly). I know of people who use it for Signal and Spotify. Great project, and right at home on a Linux phone.
I just heard of it from this thread and took a look. It looks great! I'd love to get one, but from the FAQ:
> "The only apps that won’t work are ones that require the full Google Play Store and all it’s requirements. This includes some banking apps"
Sigh. It looks like I'd have to carry two phones.
Banking and credit card apps are essential daily apps for me. I can't even log in to some of my accounts on a desktop browser without their phone app to authenticate, and quite often individual payments require phone app confirmation. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to switch accounts for a freer user experience.
Separately from finance, I also have to use the Google suite for my main job, and I've had to use Discord for another job. I guess those can run in a browser with reduced functionality, though. Not so for the banking/credit card apps, unfortunately.
This isn't a complaint about Waydroid or FLX1. I appreciate the work and creativity! I've long dreamed of owning (and building) a completely FLOSS phone, and seen how much work is involved. I owned two Nokia N900s back in the day.
But times have changed, and I wish and hope a way can be found to run the apps or protocols daily life seems to require now, on top of (or side by side with) a base FLOSS system.
> "The only apps that won’t work are ones that require the full Google Play Store and all it’s requirements. This includes some banking apps"
Sigh. It looks like I'd have to carry two phones.
Banking and credit card apps are essential daily apps for me. I can't even log in to some of my accounts on a desktop browser without their phone app to authenticate, and quite often individual payments require phone app confirmation. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to switch accounts for a freer user experience.
Separately from finance, I also have to use the Google suite for my main job, and I've had to use Discord for another job. I guess those can run in a browser with reduced functionality, though. Not so for the banking/credit card apps, unfortunately.
This isn't a complaint about Waydroid or FLX1. I appreciate the work and creativity! I've long dreamed of owning (and building) a completely FLOSS phone, and seen how much work is involved. I owned two Nokia N900s back in the day.
But times have changed, and I wish and hope a way can be found to run the apps or protocols daily life seems to require now, on top of (or side by side with) a base FLOSS system.
Wow, this phone is almost perfect - TRRS connector, uSD card, user-replaceable battery, and available in the United States. Not having an OLED panel might be a dealbreaker though.
How do you like the Furiphone FLX1? Very few reviews online...
FWIW there are a bunch of reviews on our official website, as well as this exhaustive review from a community member: https://blog-d.luigi311.com/furilabs-flx1/
You guys should send our some review units to Linux tech youtubers. I kept searching for reviews of the phone and there is nothing except the 4-5 videos from your guys' channel, which does not instill confidence that this is a real project and not a scam.
We have - I believe the first review will be coming out this week. More soon.
There's a review from The Register that just came out: https://www.theregister.com/2025/02/03/furiphone_flx1/
There's a review from The Register that just came out: https://www.theregister.com/2025/02/03/furiphone_flx1/
I thought the same originally. Then after speaking with the online chat and realising Wayne was a Queenslander, I bought one.
There’s enough people in the Matrix and Telegram channels now to know there is a real phone. Even look at the GitHub activity. It’s busy.
Yep. Been daily driving since September.
I love it.
No DP Alt mode.
I love it.
No DP Alt mode.
Does this support DP alt mode on the USB-C port?
No DP through the USB-C port right now, no. I believe it's missing from the hardware.
It's a little frustrating because "Convergence" options are exposed in the UI.
It's a little frustrating because "Convergence" options are exposed in the UI.
There’s a flatpak signal that works great in FuriOS too
Isn't that the desktop app? Which is neat, but needs to be linked to the phone app, AFAIK.
Yeah it is. I have the Signal app installed in Android, but I only use it to initiate the Signal setup. Then use the desktop flatpak in FuriOS as my daily driver. You can change the look of it to be similar to the mobile app and a recent change (like a week ago) has made resizing the contact list easier from a touch screen rather than having to use a mouse the first time.
The Telegram and Matrix channels have been great for people sharing tips like this.
The Telegram and Matrix channels have been great for people sharing tips like this.
I have three apps I bought a long time ago. A Swedish dictionary, a german-swedish dictionary and an english-swedish dictionary.
They are still installable, but not available in the app store. The company (Norstedts) went over to a subscription style (of course).
I use waydroid to have them on my desktop and I love it.
They are still installable, but not available in the app store. The company (Norstedts) went over to a subscription style (of course).
I use waydroid to have them on my desktop and I love it.
Many apps depend on running an "official" Android distro from Google, Samsung, etc. and don't work with Waydroid's Lineage-based distro. I think the Wine-like approach from https://gitlab.com/android_translation_layer/android_transla... might help to trick apps into believing that they run on an "official" Android distro.
There is a set of specific APIs you have to simulate to trick apps like this. On “real” Android, such simulation is done with things like Magisk modules (which mock certain things) or microG (which reimplementats Google services as a whole). The Wine-like approach used in ATL is certainly more straightforward for simulating APIs, but it’s still needs to be reimplemented specifically for ATL. Waydroid, on the other hand, can probably reuse Magisk or microG, since it’s running a whole Android setup.
Every time I see this I think "cool! I can run some cool Android app that doesn't have a Linux counterpart" and every time I fail to think of anything. Are there any must have Android apps out there?
Organic Maps and OSMAnd. They are better than open source desktop map software I could find.
Organic Maps has a desktop linux version but it's far from having feature parity.
Although it might change with this grant [1] aiming to build a nice desktop UI for Organic Maps.
[1] https://nlnet.nl/project/OrganicMaps-ConvergentUI/
Organic Maps has a desktop linux version but it's far from having feature parity.
Although it might change with this grant [1] aiming to build a nice desktop UI for Organic Maps.
[1] https://nlnet.nl/project/OrganicMaps-ConvergentUI/
I love FairEmail, the mail client. Crazy to say this but it may be better than all the desktop mail clients I have used.
I tried them all (also anything on Linux) and now I just use Roundcube on a local install, which runs in any browser.
The main thing for me would be stuff like banking which require app-based authentication. Of course, solutions like this unfortunately don't work on something like Waydroid because the app knows it's in a container and thus blocks functionality.
I mostly see this recommended for people who want to play mobile games on a Steam Deck.
But are there still mobile games worth playing when you have access to steam?
Somewhat weirdly, if you want to play Minecraft Bedrock (not the classic Java version, but the one developed for handhelds, consoles, and Windows) on the SteamDeck this appears to be the most solid path. I've played it and it works.
TFT from Riot Games would be a good example. Protected by Vanguard so you can not use wine. However you need an arm device, since they do not publish apks for x86.
Couldn't you use qemu-user (and binfmt_misc) to run ARM binaries under emulation on x86? I suppose you might also need ARM-specific system libraries installed - these can easily coexist with their x86-64 versions on a standard Linux install (see "multiarch") but I'm not sure if Android allows the same.
I use it for this; found out about it when I installed Bazzite on my ROG Ally and it came with Waydroid.
The other useful feature for me is using the Android apps for media subscriptions that only enable offline downloads in the app and not in the browser so I can use them on the go.
The other useful feature for me is using the Android apps for media subscriptions that only enable offline downloads in the app and not in the browser so I can use them on the go.
Ahhh, that actually makes a lot of sense. I didn't even think of games. Maybe I'll use it to play Candy Crush.
Isn't there already a PC version of that? It always seems to be pinned to the Start menu of new Windows installations, but maybe that's also via some sort of Android compatibility layer
I have a "smart guitar" that needs the app to change settings. It's the only thing keeping me on a "smart" phone.
By 'smart guitar', do you mean that the guitar has an amplifier or effect pedal built-in?
Screen record apps, that are protected in a normal phone.
For me it seems useful for the opposite reason. There's a lot of garbage that you have to use where something could be a website but they want you to install some Android app. If I could run those Android apps on my PC, maybe it could be a slightly less terrible experience. Perhaps various dating apps as well, idk.
Exactly the same for me. I now just use and old android phone with a broken screen and run scrcpy
I use Waydroid to run my banking apps on my laptop. Much more convenient than going through many layers of authentication each time on internet banking.
Lots of mapping apps have no equivalent, especially with an interface optimized to work on a phone
Minecraft Bedrock?
Realcalc?
Does this allow the container access a hardware USB device? I have Mooondrop FreeDSP usb-c cable with an PEQ that only works with a terrible Android app, and it takes forever to change the EQ settings via an Android tablet I have, that has terrible touch screen. I wish I could just use my linux laptop to do it.
I think it does, to the point where plugging in USB devices while Android has focus accidentally captures the USB device: https://github.com/waydroid/waydroid/issues/778
If not, it's just a Linux container, so with some udev rules you should be able to make it work regardless.
If not, it's just a Linux container, so with some udev rules you should be able to make it work regardless.
A few things that seem like they're consistently missing from these projects:
Hardware 3d acceleration from the host in a version of OpenGL ES + Vulkan that most phones have natively. Lastly, many apps have built-in ways of detecting that they're not running on a phone and ditch out (looking at cpuinfo and referencing that with the purported device being run).
It also seems that expected arm support on device is increasing (along with expected throughput) and that the capability of the x86 host device you need to emulate even a modest modern mobile ARM soc is getting higher and higher.
Lastly, the android version supported is almost always 3-4 generations behind the current Android. Apps are quick to drop legacy android support or run with fewer features/less optimizations on older versions of the OS. The android base version in this project is from 2020.
Anecdotally, using bluestacks (which indisputably has the most compatible and optimized emulation stack in the entire space) with a 7800X3D / RTX 3090 still runs most games slower than a snapdragon 8 phone from yesteryear running natively.
It also seems that expected arm support on device is increasing (along with expected throughput) and that the capability of the x86 host device you need to emulate even a modest modern mobile ARM soc is getting higher and higher.
Lastly, the android version supported is almost always 3-4 generations behind the current Android. Apps are quick to drop legacy android support or run with fewer features/less optimizations on older versions of the OS. The android base version in this project is from 2020.
Anecdotally, using bluestacks (which indisputably has the most compatible and optimized emulation stack in the entire space) with a 7800X3D / RTX 3090 still runs most games slower than a snapdragon 8 phone from yesteryear running natively.
virtio-gpu rutabaga was recently added to QEMU IIUC mostly by Google for Chromebook Android emulation or Android Studio or both?
virtio-gpu-rutabaga: https://www.qemu.org/docs/master/system/devices/virtio-gpu.h...
Rutabaga Virtual Graphics Interface: https://crosvm.dev/book/appendix/rutabaga_gfx.html
gfxstream: https://android.googlesource.com/platform/hardware/google/gf...
"Gfxstream Merged Into Mesa For Vulkan Virtualization" (2024-09) https://www.phoronix.com/news/Mesa-Gfxstream-Merged
I don't understand why there is not an official x86 container / ROM for Android development? Do CI builds of Android apps not run tests with recent versions of Android? How do CI builds of APKs run GUI tests without an Android container?
virtio-gpu-rutabaga: https://www.qemu.org/docs/master/system/devices/virtio-gpu.h...
Rutabaga Virtual Graphics Interface: https://crosvm.dev/book/appendix/rutabaga_gfx.html
gfxstream: https://android.googlesource.com/platform/hardware/google/gf...
"Gfxstream Merged Into Mesa For Vulkan Virtualization" (2024-09) https://www.phoronix.com/news/Mesa-Gfxstream-Merged
I don't understand why there is not an official x86 container / ROM for Android development? Do CI builds of Android apps not run tests with recent versions of Android? How do CI builds of APKs run GUI tests without an Android container?
There is no official support for x86 in android any more - the Android-x86 project was the last I know that supported/maintained it. Last release was 2022.
For apps that use Vulkan natively, it's easy - but many still use and rely on OpenGL ES. It's a weird scenario where you have apps that are now supporting Vulkan, but they have higher minimum OS requirements as a result... but those versions of Android aren't supported by these type of projects.
For apps that use Vulkan natively, it's easy - but many still use and rely on OpenGL ES. It's a weird scenario where you have apps that are now supporting Vulkan, but they have higher minimum OS requirements as a result... but those versions of Android aren't supported by these type of projects.
What Im surprised about is that no one has abstracted this out so you can run multiple Android containers under LXC. With Waydroid, you have one image. From what I can see they use a custom Linux kernel with a lot of patches and I wasn't really able to get a handle on it, but the LXC interface stuff is pretty simple.
Waydroid uses the host kernel.
Since Binder is a kernel feature, how do they get it to work?
written 6 years ago: "The binder kernel driver has been present in the upstream Linux kernel for quite a while now."
https://brauner.io/2019/01/09/android-binderfs.html
https://brauner.io/2019/01/09/android-binderfs.html
While it's part of upstream Linux, many kernels come with it disabled because it has a long history of security issues and basically nothing but Android uses it.
It also liked to trigger kernel panics for me on Ubuntu 22.04, but that could be a weird hardware issue.
It also liked to trigger kernel panics for me on Ubuntu 22.04, but that could be a weird hardware issue.
Ah, interesting...man, software is fun. I wouldn't have guessed in a million years that it could cause panics as an optional component, like, it shouldn't be running code unless it is being used, and it shouldn't be called because it isn't mandatory in the kernel.
I guess I'm still grokking software complexity, Linux, and how much work an OS is truly is, 25 years after I built my first Linux box...because in another sense, of course that could happen.
I guess I'm still grokking software complexity, Linux, and how much work an OS is truly is, 25 years after I built my first Linux box...because in another sense, of course that could happen.
What does this binder thing even do? I get it's an IPC something, but why does android need it's own special kernel-level IPC?
There's some general information about it here: https://elinux.org/Android_Binder
A binder transaction behaves sort of like a syscall, in the sense that a client process can immediately, synchronously transfer control to a server thread, rather than just enqueueing a message to be processed whenever the server gets around to it.
This enables Android to separate many of its components into different processes (at different privilege levels), and use binder for RPCs that are on the "critical path" for user interaction, without incurring impractical amounts of overhead or latency.
A binder transaction behaves sort of like a syscall, in the sense that a client process can immediately, synchronously transfer control to a server thread, rather than just enqueueing a message to be processed whenever the server gets around to it.
This enables Android to separate many of its components into different processes (at different privilege levels), and use binder for RPCs that are on the "critical path" for user interaction, without incurring impractical amounts of overhead or latency.
Wikipedia has a good explanation of Binder and the history which goes way back to Be OS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenBinder
It's more like a micro services framework that abstracts threads and processes.
Fuchsia takes the approach to the conclusion and powers the entire OS through a similar system:
https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/concepts/fidl/overview
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenBinder
It's more like a micro services framework that abstracts threads and processes.
Fuchsia takes the approach to the conclusion and powers the entire OS through a similar system:
https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/concepts/fidl/overview
You're expected to install a kernel that has the module, or build it yourself. I use linux-zen which ships binder out of the box.
Accrding to the Arch Wiki, it uses the kernel modules. Have a look at section 1.4 here: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Waydroid
Binder has been on the mainline Linux kernel for a long long time.
Your host kernel needs to have binderfs.
easiest way is to use zen kernel because it's already baked in.
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I got on instagram[0] before you could post via the web and before I had a smartphone. I was able to run the app under android-x86 on VirtualBox.
I think the hardest part of the whole setup was setting the screen resolution to something the ig app would run under (it wouldn't run in landscape mode) and getting ssh/scp running to move files from the computer to the vm.
[0] for professional reasons. Link in profile if you're interested. My insta posting had been greatly reduced since I'm still not convinced that anyone has truly found a way to redeem imaginary internet points for dollars. At least not at my level of effort I'm willing to put into accumulating imaginary internet points.
I think the hardest part of the whole setup was setting the screen resolution to something the ig app would run under (it wouldn't run in landscape mode) and getting ssh/scp running to move files from the computer to the vm.
[0] for professional reasons. Link in profile if you're interested. My insta posting had been greatly reduced since I'm still not convinced that anyone has truly found a way to redeem imaginary internet points for dollars. At least not at my level of effort I'm willing to put into accumulating imaginary internet points.
Popular in 2021 (684 points, 207 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28616985
Any way to do this in Mac M1? I would love to run an android instance on Mac docker where u can install apps and can persist storage.
I was able to run this a while ago on virtualized linux machine using UTM. I forgot whether I used ARM or x86 on Rosetta image, but UTM gallery has easy to use images for both. https://mac.getutm.app/gallery/
from their page:
> We removed the Android pre-built images because Android does not run well on QEMU/UTM and created a lot of confusion. Advanced users can build their own Android VM from scratch but it is not recommended.
> We removed the Android pre-built images because Android does not run well on QEMU/UTM and created a lot of confusion. Advanced users can build their own Android VM from scratch but it is not recommended.
They are talking about images running Android. This post is about Waydroid, so you can still just use regular Linux image and install waydroid on that.
What happened to Microsoft's implementation? Wasn't it supposed to come to Windows? Or did that end up by the wayside?
You probably mean WSA, Windows Subsystem for Android, only available on Windows 11… for another month. At which point support for it will be dropped[0]. It's a bit sad 'cause I, myself, do use it for a few things.
Also, by default it required installing the Amazon Appstore, which I don't think is available for download anymore. So the only way to use it now would be to use the script from the MagiskOnWSA[1] which downloads it somehow, and at the same time, installs Magisk. If that even works.
[0] - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/android/wsa/ [1] - https://github.com/LSPosed/MagiskOnWSALocal
[0] - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/android/wsa/ [1] - https://github.com/LSPosed/MagiskOnWSALocal
It looks like it fell apart because none of the existing app stores wanted to support it (Amazon originally did, then pulled out), and Microsoft, in a rare moment of clarity, realized that nobody likes the Microsoft Store.
Actually, Wayside would have been a nice name for the software that became Waydroid.
Might be barking up the wrong tree but how does this compare with android studios emulator?
Let me list of few things that I can think of:
- (pro) It run on a laptop/desktop so it's performance will be a lot better
- (con) If the app has any native code inside it, it will need to support x86_64 or you'll need to have an ARM laptop
- (con) Like many in the thread mentioned, some apps will require Google features to even start.
- (con) I'm not sure if Waydroid will report secure boot features to the apps that require it.
- (pro) It run on a laptop/desktop so it's performance will be a lot better
- (con) If the app has any native code inside it, it will need to support x86_64 or you'll need to have an ARM laptop
- (con) Like many in the thread mentioned, some apps will require Google features to even start.
- (con) I'm not sure if Waydroid will report secure boot features to the apps that require it.
The emulator these days is just using an x86_64 image and with not-that-modern VM hardware extensions the overhead is pretty small.
So I'd expect CPU performance to be very similar if not basically identical.
GPU performance would be the bigger question, and the emulator has put a lot of work in that direction. Is this better or worse than that would be the biggest difference performance-wise.
So I'd expect CPU performance to be very similar if not basically identical.
GPU performance would be the bigger question, and the emulator has put a lot of work in that direction. Is this better or worse than that would be the biggest difference performance-wise.
Not entirely true. An example of a bug which will be fixed soon - https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/hardware/processors-me....
Waydroid runs Android services and applications natively on your machine in a container with apps launching in windows side-by-side with your other applications, whereas the Android emulator runs a VM with regular smartphone-esque hardware.
Quite a big difference.
Quite a big difference.
The emulator is just KVM. Yes VMs vs. container is a difference, just like it is in endless cloud discussions, but it's not particularly big in any objective metrics
This is like suggesting that running applications in a Windows VM and running them under WINE isn't a big difference.
(One might say "but it's the same OS!" - but it's only really a similar kernel, and even that is heavily customized and not at all the same as your laptop runs. The graphical stack is also nothing like neither X nor Wayland.)
Also, rant: it's not KVM, but QEMU. KVM is a small API to deal with virtualization instructions, but while that makes VMs much faster than without (similar to how floating point is much faster with hardware support), it does very little on its own. The virtualization instructions are basically a way to let QEMU run code as is but intercept everything important - syscalls, faults, you name it - whereas without, it would have to instrument or outright interpret the executed program.
It's QEMU that micro-manages setup, execution and importantly is responsible for emulating all the VM devices - KVM just exposes memory mapped into the virtual CPU's memory space.
(One might say "but it's the same OS!" - but it's only really a similar kernel, and even that is heavily customized and not at all the same as your laptop runs. The graphical stack is also nothing like neither X nor Wayland.)
Also, rant: it's not KVM, but QEMU. KVM is a small API to deal with virtualization instructions, but while that makes VMs much faster than without (similar to how floating point is much faster with hardware support), it does very little on its own. The virtualization instructions are basically a way to let QEMU run code as is but intercept everything important - syscalls, faults, you name it - whereas without, it would have to instrument or outright interpret the executed program.
It's QEMU that micro-manages setup, execution and importantly is responsible for emulating all the VM devices - KVM just exposes memory mapped into the virtual CPU's memory space.
> This is like suggesting that running applications in a Windows VM and running them under WINE isn't a big difference.
False equivalence. WINE reimplements windows libraries and higher level APIs to convert to Linux-native ASAP.
Waydroid/containers operate at a kernel level. The entire userspace is "virtualized".
> One might say "but it's the same OS!" - but it's only really a similar kernel, and even that is heavily customized and not at all the same as your laptop runs.
Exactly my point. The only difference is whether or not the kernel is shared, which is a very, very small fraction of the OS.
False equivalence. WINE reimplements windows libraries and higher level APIs to convert to Linux-native ASAP.
Waydroid/containers operate at a kernel level. The entire userspace is "virtualized".
> One might say "but it's the same OS!" - but it's only really a similar kernel, and even that is heavily customized and not at all the same as your laptop runs.
Exactly my point. The only difference is whether or not the kernel is shared, which is a very, very small fraction of the OS.
WINE reimplements windows libraries and higher level APIs to convert them to something compatible with your host kernel, providing as full a glue Windows user-space as needed to support Windows user-space applications integrating into your host system. This includes a full, Windows-centric emulated filesystem hierarchy.
Waydroid reimplements Android libraries and higher level APIs to convert them to something compatible with your host kernel, providing as full a glue Android user-space as need to support Android user-space applications integrating into your host system (such as by providing a Wayland-backed implementation of SurfaceFlinger or HWComposer). This includes a full, Android-centric emulated filesystem hieararchy.
They are equivalent, even if their targets are different. And most importantly, they are both the polar opposite of a VM setup, as the user-space is not the user-space of the VM, but a dedicated user-space that presents Windows and Android behaviors respecitvely, but implementing them in terms of your host system's window management, input management, audio management, etc.
(That waydroid relies heavily on namespaces is a technical detail, not a relevant difference between WINE and Waydroid. WINE if implemented again today would likely do the same.)
> Exactly my point. The only difference is whether or not the kernel is shared, which is a very, very small fraction of the OS.
No, the main difference is whether the user-space is deeply integrated through various glue, or whether you're emulating the whole system as-is, with its original user-space and kernel, with just a virtual screen to interact with.
Waydroid reimplements Android libraries and higher level APIs to convert them to something compatible with your host kernel, providing as full a glue Android user-space as need to support Android user-space applications integrating into your host system (such as by providing a Wayland-backed implementation of SurfaceFlinger or HWComposer). This includes a full, Android-centric emulated filesystem hieararchy.
They are equivalent, even if their targets are different. And most importantly, they are both the polar opposite of a VM setup, as the user-space is not the user-space of the VM, but a dedicated user-space that presents Windows and Android behaviors respecitvely, but implementing them in terms of your host system's window management, input management, audio management, etc.
(That waydroid relies heavily on namespaces is a technical detail, not a relevant difference between WINE and Waydroid. WINE if implemented again today would likely do the same.)
> Exactly my point. The only difference is whether or not the kernel is shared, which is a very, very small fraction of the OS.
No, the main difference is whether the user-space is deeply integrated through various glue, or whether you're emulating the whole system as-is, with its original user-space and kernel, with just a virtual screen to interact with.
> Waydroid reimplements Android libraries and higher level APIs to convert them to something compatible with your host kernel,
This is simply incorrect, though, negating the entirety of the rest of your argument.
> No, the main difference is whether the user-space is deeply integrated through various glue, or whether you're emulating the whole system as-is
Okay, sure, but then again waydroid and a VM are kissing cousins going off of that definition anyway. Both emulate the whole system. The only difference is whether or not the kernel is replaced.
> That waydroid relies heavily on namespaces is a technical detail, not a relevant difference between WINE and Waydroid. WINE if implemented again today would likely do the same.
No, it wouldn't. WINE does the approach it does to avoid redistribution of any Microsoft binaries. Simply containerizing & emulating the kernel API would be useless for WINE as a result
This is simply incorrect, though, negating the entirety of the rest of your argument.
> No, the main difference is whether the user-space is deeply integrated through various glue, or whether you're emulating the whole system as-is
Okay, sure, but then again waydroid and a VM are kissing cousins going off of that definition anyway. Both emulate the whole system. The only difference is whether or not the kernel is replaced.
> That waydroid relies heavily on namespaces is a technical detail, not a relevant difference between WINE and Waydroid. WINE if implemented again today would likely do the same.
No, it wouldn't. WINE does the approach it does to avoid redistribution of any Microsoft binaries. Simply containerizing & emulating the kernel API would be useless for WINE as a result
On my Ubuntu phone I use Waydroid to use the WhatsApp client as the kung fu club I'm in uses WA to communicate. It works well enough, though it is quite a battery drainer.
anything like this for x11?
I haven't tried it yet, but I did find this guide that might be useful:
https://github.com/1999AZZAR/use-waydroid-on-x11
If you try it please let me know how it went.
https://github.com/1999AZZAR/use-waydroid-on-x11
If you try it please let me know how it went.
Waydroid is based on Anbox (https://github.com/anbox) which is no longer being maintained, but should still work for older Android versions on LTS distros.
I think you can use something like Weston in X11 to run Waydroid.
So is it possible to have a postmarketOS device that runs Android apps at good speed with Waydroid?
Yes! Here's a video (not mine) showing exactly that:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Q0c3iy-5g
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Q0c3iy-5g
waydroid is very good. its very commonly used for playing android games on linux.
It's unfortunate that there are no Google-vended images (e.g. the generic system image) that run on Waydroid. Typing my password into random ROMs from the internet sketches me out.
https://source.android.com/docs/core/tests/vts/gsi