How to prepare to flee your country?
35 comments
Without more information, I think you're overreacting.
Don't get me wrong: It's not because the situation isn't serious. However you're in "the bay area", as opposed to some backwater white-supremacy proto-ethnostate. You already have neighbors and state legislators that are opposed to whatever is coming down the dumbest-timeline pipe, make your stand with them.
Not only will locally organizing give better results, it'll cost you a lot less in time, energy, and money than trying to emigrate in a panic.
Don't get me wrong: It's not because the situation isn't serious. However you're in "the bay area", as opposed to some backwater white-supremacy proto-ethnostate. You already have neighbors and state legislators that are opposed to whatever is coming down the dumbest-timeline pipe, make your stand with them.
Not only will locally organizing give better results, it'll cost you a lot less in time, energy, and money than trying to emigrate in a panic.
Yeah, due to the peculiarities of the US (and why you might want to flee), you may be better off just making sure you're in a blue state and a blue city. Certainly easier than trying to leave the country, which is quite a bit harder. Especially if you have family here.
You can flee your average random country (and even Russia). However, it is unlikely you'll be able to flee the US. The US collapsing will probably bring the end of a 1/3 of the world countries or so that only exist because of the US order.
Also if the US collapses into several states, you no longer have a passport. There is a precedent for this (Soviet Union) where "russians" found themselves essentially stateless. So unless you have a second nationality, your best bet is to stay where you are to ensure the new nationality stick to you (hopefully).
If you have a second passport, residence and home, you probably wouldn't be asking this question anyway. Preparing such an infrastructure is out of reach for most people, unfortunately.
Also if the US collapses into several states, you no longer have a passport. There is a precedent for this (Soviet Union) where "russians" found themselves essentially stateless. So unless you have a second nationality, your best bet is to stay where you are to ensure the new nationality stick to you (hopefully).
If you have a second passport, residence and home, you probably wouldn't be asking this question anyway. Preparing such an infrastructure is out of reach for most people, unfortunately.
Do you have a new country already lined up with proper visas, residency, or citizenship? If not there is no point in any other planning.
Can I ask why are your fleeing ? Are you chronically ill lacking health insurance and going to another country for their nationalized health care ? Or maybe you have unpaid gambling debts and your life is at risk ? Perhaps you are here illegally and need to flee before you are held in an internment camp ? Is there an upcoming bill that targets the marginalized group you are part of ? U.S. Military and don't want to be part of the Gaza/Canada/Greenland/* invasion force ?
Or upon reflection are you fleeing because your general anxiety is high (totally get it) and the flight or fight response is all consuming ? Because there is no way to flee that.
Or upon reflection are you fleeing because your general anxiety is high (totally get it) and the flight or fight response is all consuming ? Because there is no way to flee that.
It may be wise to plan ahead before, for example:
* Political speech starts getting monitored and targeted for detention/arrest
* Immigration into other countries gets backlogged
* Other countries stop letting Americans in entirely as a sanction
* Border controls become a lot more restrictive
Is any of this actually going to happen in the next few years? Who the fuck knows. But the likelihood just increased substantially.
* Political speech starts getting monitored and targeted for detention/arrest
* Immigration into other countries gets backlogged
* Other countries stop letting Americans in entirely as a sanction
* Border controls become a lot more restrictive
Is any of this actually going to happen in the next few years? Who the fuck knows. But the likelihood just increased substantially.
>the Gaza/Canada/Greenland/* invasion force
LMAO!
LMAO!
Hey now, don't forget Mexico and Panama on that list!
Actually, in some ways the Panama thing is more plausible than the others, since this was just ~35 years ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Pana...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Pana...
Find a property manager now who would rent it out while you’re out of country. This defers the disposal decision into the future. You may want to return eventually. Also covers the mortgage and might provide the monthly income you’d need to demonstrate for a visa (see below).
If you have not yet found a country that suits you, make time to travel now to explore some options based on your criteria, residency, and work visa constraints (digital nomad visa vs non lucrative passive income, for example).
Depending on your means, there are many countries you can purchase outright for under $200k. Mortgages can usually be had with 40% down. Renting is almost always an option.
Line up housing (rent or own), income, and residency. Have a plan what you’ll sell, ship or store, travel plans to move, etc. Execute plan when your risk appetite is exceeded.
Canada: https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/findajob/foreign-candidates
Estonia: https://workinestonia.com/
Germany: https://make-it-in-germany.com/
Denmark: https://workindenmark.dk/
Finland: https://workinfinland.com/
UK: https://findajob.dwp.gov.uk/
Sweden: https://arbetsformedlingen.se/
New Zealand: https://www.live-work.immigration.govt.nz/work-in-new-zealan...
https://old.reddit.com/r/AmerExit/
If you have not yet found a country that suits you, make time to travel now to explore some options based on your criteria, residency, and work visa constraints (digital nomad visa vs non lucrative passive income, for example).
Depending on your means, there are many countries you can purchase outright for under $200k. Mortgages can usually be had with 40% down. Renting is almost always an option.
Line up housing (rent or own), income, and residency. Have a plan what you’ll sell, ship or store, travel plans to move, etc. Execute plan when your risk appetite is exceeded.
Canada: https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/findajob/foreign-candidates
Estonia: https://workinestonia.com/
Germany: https://make-it-in-germany.com/
Denmark: https://workindenmark.dk/
Finland: https://workinfinland.com/
UK: https://findajob.dwp.gov.uk/
Sweden: https://arbetsformedlingen.se/
New Zealand: https://www.live-work.immigration.govt.nz/work-in-new-zealan...
https://old.reddit.com/r/AmerExit/
I have been considering the same question since covid and the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I was shocked to see how quickly you can end up trapped in your own country.
I have made a few preparations since then.
I always keep a few thousand euros in cash at home, enough to keep me going with a frozen bank account. Even when all goes well, ATM limits can be restrictive. In a worse situation, money can be hard to access.
I keep a bit of money with my family abroad. Enough to soften the landing even if I arrive with just the clothes on my back.
I have citizenship on another continent. I refused to become a EU citizen until I was guaranteed dual citizenship.
I keep a lot more liquid assets than most. I would prefer to keep more of it out of Europe but that is not so easy.
My pension is not tied to any country. This was an important feature for me.
I can work from anywhere. I can leave early while most people would wait until things get really bad.
That being said, I try not to worry too much. These things are set up precisely so I don't have to. They're a sort of insurance policy.
I have made a few preparations since then.
I always keep a few thousand euros in cash at home, enough to keep me going with a frozen bank account. Even when all goes well, ATM limits can be restrictive. In a worse situation, money can be hard to access.
I keep a bit of money with my family abroad. Enough to soften the landing even if I arrive with just the clothes on my back.
I have citizenship on another continent. I refused to become a EU citizen until I was guaranteed dual citizenship.
I keep a lot more liquid assets than most. I would prefer to keep more of it out of Europe but that is not so easy.
My pension is not tied to any country. This was an important feature for me.
I can work from anywhere. I can leave early while most people would wait until things get really bad.
That being said, I try not to worry too much. These things are set up precisely so I don't have to. They're a sort of insurance policy.
Can you elaborate on your pension? How do you achieve that?
It's one of the features of the specific German private pension I pay into. It allows me to keep contributing if I leave Germany, and to withdraw it under more flexible terms as needed.
I know of a person who is looking into buying an apartment in what they consider to be a stable country (Uruguay). They are not immediately planning to flee, but making contingency plans.
I am supportive of my friend and sympathetic to their concerns, yet even if things got much worse my inclination would be to stay and engage with friends and family who have ideas that I strongly disagree with.
I am supportive of my friend and sympathetic to their concerns, yet even if things got much worse my inclination would be to stay and engage with friends and family who have ideas that I strongly disagree with.
I think engagement is always worthwhile, but friends and family aren’t likely the threat people are worried about. Some people are worried about getting persecuted for their particular minority status and that either isn’t an issue, or it’s one that isn’t solved with debate.
I’ve looked at it from the prospect of an adventure or enrichment for my kids, not “fleeing”. I have dual citizenship with an EU country.
The problem is that I’m both too rich and too poor to do it. If I had nothing, no problem. If I were rich, I could afford the attorneys and other professionals needed to live abroad without getting jammed up.
Some people pull off the nomad lifestyle. That’s cool, but it really depends on stability here in the United States. You could be living your best life in Bali, but living at the whim of policy in Washington.
The problem is that I’m both too rich and too poor to do it. If I had nothing, no problem. If I were rich, I could afford the attorneys and other professionals needed to live abroad without getting jammed up.
Some people pull off the nomad lifestyle. That’s cool, but it really depends on stability here in the United States. You could be living your best life in Bali, but living at the whim of policy in Washington.
Make sure you get enough sleep and make slow rational decisions.
And... unplug from whatever news prpvider you are plugged into
I am moving from the Midwest to a city less than 2 hours from the Canadian border. That’s plan B, but New Zealand is in dire need of IT workers and if you have a certain job title you can get fast tracked there. So I am using Seek to apply to roles there.
Do you actually have a need to flee or are you thinking this sort of planning will be a fun hobby?
Start by visiting a stable country you want to live in, for example Costa Rica, and buy a small property. Return and contract a real state agency to sell your properties, then move.
If you have a second passport. You will be able to leave anytime you want.
If things did get locked down. Don’t count on being allowed to leave. Or of other countries accepting US citizens.
If things did get locked down. Don’t count on being allowed to leave. Or of other countries accepting US citizens.
The biggest problem with large numbers of people moving to another country lies in the bureaucratic bottle neck they all must pass through. Expect to spend several months to several years before you are done. When I moved to Mexico, it took me about half a year to get through the preparation and the initial paperwork. Once I was in the country there were additional fees and paperwork before I received a permanent resident permit several years later.
If large numbers of people want to move, expect requirements to get steeper as people in the receiving country begin to worry about the consequences of a large influx of foreigners. Expect the required personal qualifications to get stiffer, expect the fees to get steeper, and expect the delays for bureaucratic approvals to get longer due to the increased workload.
In many countries you would not have to move immediately, so a good plan might be to get approval now rather than when things get tough.
Expect misinformation and changing requirements and procedures. Expect false steps and mistakes. You'l want to get as much information as early as practical so you can make realistic plans. Even then patience and flexibility are required.
In summary, do it now because if you don't, it may not be practical later.
If large numbers of people want to move, expect requirements to get steeper as people in the receiving country begin to worry about the consequences of a large influx of foreigners. Expect the required personal qualifications to get stiffer, expect the fees to get steeper, and expect the delays for bureaucratic approvals to get longer due to the increased workload.
In many countries you would not have to move immediately, so a good plan might be to get approval now rather than when things get tough.
Expect misinformation and changing requirements and procedures. Expect false steps and mistakes. You'l want to get as much information as early as practical so you can make realistic plans. Even then patience and flexibility are required.
In summary, do it now because if you don't, it may not be practical later.
Mexico is super easy to get residence in especially if you have money and resources.
Money and resources are the same thing.
To where, where you don’t probably flee back?
Curious question.
Curious question.
I'd probably do Singapore. Safer culturally, physically, politically, economically.
Places like Japan or UK might be tougher on immigration. And they're probably in a "nowhere to go but down" kind of situation with high debt, low economic growth, declining population.
Places like Japan or UK might be tougher on immigration. And they're probably in a "nowhere to go but down" kind of situation with high debt, low economic growth, declining population.
Watch Nomad Capitalist on YouTube. He has good advice on how to get started. Most of his advice is for rich people but he also has good advice for normies.
Obligatory: I Am Not A Lawyer, or a tax professional, or any kind of professional. None of the below is professional advice, merely lessons I have learned from my personal experience.
Well, I didn't flee the United States exactly, but I did move to Finland in what some would consider a hasty move.
It turned out to be a great decision in every regard except, of course, financially. I've probably left something on the order of $500,000 of pretax income on the table and counting at over $100,000 a year, as I moved right after completing a top university undergrad in mathematics and electrical engineering. Salaries in tech really are much lower in most other countries, even the relatively well off ones like Finland, so you need to ask yourself whether you're genuinely willing to leave so much money on the table first.
Another thing to keep in mind is that, due to US tax law, you will essentially never be able to invest in e.g. an index fund again. You should walk into this assuming your Roth IRA, 401k, etc. will all be essentially frozen at their current values, and that the country you move to will not grant them any special privileges. Nor will the US grant any special privileges to any requirement or investment accounts held in the other country. Sufficiently sophisticated investors may be able to get around this, but frankly if you're that good at this stuff you should probably become a corporate lawyer or something.
You may incur serious issues if you, for example, attempt to mortgage a new home in your new home. If you're fine living with one checking account and one full time job for life, forgoing any interest in entrepreneurship whatsoever, and I repeat at much lower wages than what you currently earn, you can probably avoid the dozens to hundreds of hours of research this will all entail. Or, you can throw money at the problem and eventually smart well-remunerated individuals will figure it all out for you. But walk into this with open eyes as to what it actually means in the worst case scenario.
If that's all okay with you, the good news is that most issues can be dealt with eventually if you leave with enough money and live frugally enough to get all the paperwork out of the way. I would strongly advise you to pick a handful of countries you're interested and research the passport and visa process, and to try to get that sorted out well before you actually make the move. This is not what I did, and ultimately I'm happy with my decision, but I was in very unusual personal circumstances and had to move decisively at the time or risk losing something very dear to me.
TL;DR: Have a lot of money. Expect to lose all of it slowly over the years and never make it back. Plan the visa/passport thoroughly. Never let it escape your conscious until everything is totally squared away. Expect the process to take up 5 to 10 years of your adult life before that happens.
Well, I didn't flee the United States exactly, but I did move to Finland in what some would consider a hasty move.
It turned out to be a great decision in every regard except, of course, financially. I've probably left something on the order of $500,000 of pretax income on the table and counting at over $100,000 a year, as I moved right after completing a top university undergrad in mathematics and electrical engineering. Salaries in tech really are much lower in most other countries, even the relatively well off ones like Finland, so you need to ask yourself whether you're genuinely willing to leave so much money on the table first.
Another thing to keep in mind is that, due to US tax law, you will essentially never be able to invest in e.g. an index fund again. You should walk into this assuming your Roth IRA, 401k, etc. will all be essentially frozen at their current values, and that the country you move to will not grant them any special privileges. Nor will the US grant any special privileges to any requirement or investment accounts held in the other country. Sufficiently sophisticated investors may be able to get around this, but frankly if you're that good at this stuff you should probably become a corporate lawyer or something.
You may incur serious issues if you, for example, attempt to mortgage a new home in your new home. If you're fine living with one checking account and one full time job for life, forgoing any interest in entrepreneurship whatsoever, and I repeat at much lower wages than what you currently earn, you can probably avoid the dozens to hundreds of hours of research this will all entail. Or, you can throw money at the problem and eventually smart well-remunerated individuals will figure it all out for you. But walk into this with open eyes as to what it actually means in the worst case scenario.
If that's all okay with you, the good news is that most issues can be dealt with eventually if you leave with enough money and live frugally enough to get all the paperwork out of the way. I would strongly advise you to pick a handful of countries you're interested and research the passport and visa process, and to try to get that sorted out well before you actually make the move. This is not what I did, and ultimately I'm happy with my decision, but I was in very unusual personal circumstances and had to move decisively at the time or risk losing something very dear to me.
TL;DR: Have a lot of money. Expect to lose all of it slowly over the years and never make it back. Plan the visa/passport thoroughly. Never let it escape your conscious until everything is totally squared away. Expect the process to take up 5 to 10 years of your adult life before that happens.
> Another thing to keep in mind is that, due to US tax law, you will essentially never be able to invest in e.g. an index fund again. You should walk into this assuming your Roth IRA, 401k, etc. will all be essentially frozen at their current values, and that the country you move to will not grant them any special privileges.
I would assume that only applies to the special tax-advantaged things listed, does it also apply to a generic brokerage account?
I would assume that only applies to the special tax-advantaged things listed, does it also apply to a generic brokerage account?
You assume wrong, good catch. It usually also applies to a generic brokerage account. Very hard to speak in generalities about this stuff, but no, I didn't mean to imply this is in any way because the accounts are special, but because the underlying investment vehicle is treated specially. Look up the rules around PFICs (Passive Foreign Investment Companies) if you want to get deeper into this.
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/US_tax_pitfalls_for_a_US_per...
https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/US_tax_pitfalls_for_a_US_per...
I'm looking for insights into what complications are likely to come up if I'm trying to flee at the same time as a large number of others. For example, that might make it a very bad time to try to sell your home.