Can a Geothermal Startup Vaporize Rock to Drill the Deepest Holes?(msn.com)
msn.com
Can a Geothermal Startup Vaporize Rock to Drill the Deepest Holes?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/can-a-geothermal-startup-vaporize-rock-to-drill-the-deepest-holes-ever/ar-AA1AoaWT
102 comments
Geophysicist and former MWD engineer here. I agree. Even if you fuse everything that you penetrate to the annulus of the borehole, the material properties of the fused annular ring will vary as you cross formation boundaries based on the mineral composition of the formations being drilled. You may have some nice silicon glasses through a clean sandstone that transition quickly to inhomogeneous glass from a silicon-poor limestone. That has to create zones of weakness along the annulus and as you drill (zap) deeper it becomes even more critical to stabilize the borehole.
I can see this being a lot like conventional drilling to a point with several bit trips or casing runs necessary until you reach a point where the borehole tends to collapse due to overburden pressure, especially in overpressured environments where well control is critical, and it is no longer possible to trip out and run casing before the borehole collapses in the newly drilled interval.
What happens if your proposed well encounters salt or other evaporites? A lot of questions could use answers and those answers only come from poking holes in the ground so maybe if they throw enough money at it they can determine where this method can be useful. That would be the most valuable result of all this.
This looks useful for near surface stuff but for ultradeep wells looks like it needs some experimentation.
I can see this being a lot like conventional drilling to a point with several bit trips or casing runs necessary until you reach a point where the borehole tends to collapse due to overburden pressure, especially in overpressured environments where well control is critical, and it is no longer possible to trip out and run casing before the borehole collapses in the newly drilled interval.
What happens if your proposed well encounters salt or other evaporites? A lot of questions could use answers and those answers only come from poking holes in the ground so maybe if they throw enough money at it they can determine where this method can be useful. That would be the most valuable result of all this.
This looks useful for near surface stuff but for ultradeep wells looks like it needs some experimentation.
Are there places on Earth where it's mostly-homogenous "good stuff" all the way down? Could they avoid some of these problems - salt pockets, limestone - by being very picky about where they drill, avoiding (e.g.) places where there used to be ocean?
Even if it's homogenous, you have steadily increasing stresses with depth. This occurs for perfectly uniform materials as well. If you can't offset these to keep the hole open, it collapses.
Rocks are very weak in tension, despite being very strong in contraction. It's the reason you can break rock with a hammer or the reason ancient quarries were able to work by pouring water on wood pegs in rocks. It's also the reason concrete needs rebar to reinforce it (steel is very strong in tension, so the two combined are exceptionally strong). Keeping a hole open requires strength in tension as well as strength in compression.
Drilling mud accomplishes this by being roughly the same density as the rock, so it offsets the stresses that are trying to close the borehole that steadily increase with depth due to the increasing amount of rock above. Drilling mud keeps the borehole open until you can put in casing to support it.
This is exactly the same reason why it's difficult to build a submarine that can go to very large depths in the ocean. To put up steel walls (casing) to keep it open, you have to stop drilling and cement in casing - you can't do that as you drill. So drilling mud is a key part of being able to drill efficiently. Otherwise, you'd need to stop every few tens of meters and spend _days_ setting casing before being able to drill again.
Regardless, there is nowhere on earth where things are homogenous over very long distances. Simply put, even relatively uniform rocks can have very significant variations in physical properties. Many relevant properties (e.g. permeability - how well fluids can move through) vary over _tens of orders of magnitude_ naturally. So "uniform" can still mean "only varies by a few orders of magnitude". There are places where you can reasonably avoid non-silicates, but you're going to hit tons of other issues due to fundamental heterogeneity.
Rocks are very weak in tension, despite being very strong in contraction. It's the reason you can break rock with a hammer or the reason ancient quarries were able to work by pouring water on wood pegs in rocks. It's also the reason concrete needs rebar to reinforce it (steel is very strong in tension, so the two combined are exceptionally strong). Keeping a hole open requires strength in tension as well as strength in compression.
Drilling mud accomplishes this by being roughly the same density as the rock, so it offsets the stresses that are trying to close the borehole that steadily increase with depth due to the increasing amount of rock above. Drilling mud keeps the borehole open until you can put in casing to support it.
This is exactly the same reason why it's difficult to build a submarine that can go to very large depths in the ocean. To put up steel walls (casing) to keep it open, you have to stop drilling and cement in casing - you can't do that as you drill. So drilling mud is a key part of being able to drill efficiently. Otherwise, you'd need to stop every few tens of meters and spend _days_ setting casing before being able to drill again.
Regardless, there is nowhere on earth where things are homogenous over very long distances. Simply put, even relatively uniform rocks can have very significant variations in physical properties. Many relevant properties (e.g. permeability - how well fluids can move through) vary over _tens of orders of magnitude_ naturally. So "uniform" can still mean "only varies by a few orders of magnitude". There are places where you can reasonably avoid non-silicates, but you're going to hit tons of other issues due to fundamental heterogeneity.
My impression is Quaise's maser (?) drill thingie would be used for granite. Which is increasingly a challenge for geothermal (going deeper, longer).
Can types of drill bits (heads?) be swapped out? So use the super diamond bit to get started, then switch to Quaise's maser once you reach granite.
Just guessing. Am noob. Am just trying to follow along.
eg Most recent Volts podcast episode: An update on advanced geothermal w/ Tim Latimer of Fervo Energy.
Can types of drill bits (heads?) be swapped out? So use the super diamond bit to get started, then switch to Quaise's maser once you reach granite.
Just guessing. Am noob. Am just trying to follow along.
eg Most recent Volts podcast episode: An update on advanced geothermal w/ Tim Latimer of Fervo Energy.
You'd need to trip out of hole for it, but that isn't really a problem. I know the video acts like tripping is the end of the world, but it's a standard day to day practice offshore. Everytime something breaks or dies down hole, or you finish a section of hole you need to case, you have to trip.
So yes, you could swap the two out. But we already have bits that are good at drilling hard rock (granites, etc) they're called tricone bits. They more so crush the rock than cut it. And they look badass.
So yes, you could swap the two out. But we already have bits that are good at drilling hard rock (granites, etc) they're called tricone bits. They more so crush the rock than cut it. And they look badass.
Could you avoid the problem by drilling down a fixed length, carving out a room or supply area, drilling laterally, and then drill vertically again?
You don't have to trip if your cutting tool never wears out. You fix it to the end of a casing string and just keep adding lengths. The hole is cased as soon as it's drilled.
And so when you go to cement your casing in place, you, what?, cement your brand new indestructible quaise 'drill bit' in the hole?
Sorry, I think not. Neat idea, but there's big holes in that in practice.
Sorry, I think not. Neat idea, but there's big holes in that in practice.
I feel like you’re underestimating the power of SV moving fast and breaking things to learn quickly. Your attitude is why we’ve stopped hiring SMEs and PhDs in my underwater space launch / space elevator bio startup.
Will there be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Dragon_(rocket) s?
Perfect Silicon Valley comment.
You had me in the first half! Thanks a12k
Damn you I was hovering over downvote until the last clause of your sentence.
Well, they do talk about it, just not on those terms.
Their "drill" is unable to distinguish mud from rock, so inserting mud is a complete no-starter.
They expect to stabilize the hole by hardening the rocks on the walls. If you just ignored this because it obviously can't work, well, I agree, but that's still their claim. The only conclusion I can take from it is that they either know a solution and won't tell us, or haven't thought of anything and hope to solve it in production.
They also talk about residue removal. They say it will just gas away from the hole. Again, if you decided to ignore it because it obviously can't work...
That said, I'm with doodlebugging here. As long as it's not my money that they are betting, I just want to see what interesting problems and solutions will come out from this.
Their "drill" is unable to distinguish mud from rock, so inserting mud is a complete no-starter.
They expect to stabilize the hole by hardening the rocks on the walls. If you just ignored this because it obviously can't work, well, I agree, but that's still their claim. The only conclusion I can take from it is that they either know a solution and won't tell us, or haven't thought of anything and hope to solve it in production.
They also talk about residue removal. They say it will just gas away from the hole. Again, if you decided to ignore it because it obviously can't work...
That said, I'm with doodlebugging here. As long as it's not my money that they are betting, I just want to see what interesting problems and solutions will come out from this.
This video walks through the tech in a very explainable way, and the interviewer asks a lot of pointed questions.
https://youtu.be/b_EoZzE7KJ0
To your questions
> 1) keep the hole from collapsing
They are vaporizing the rock which turns everythingeft into an obsidian like substance.
> 2) remove the volume of rock required to continue going down
As the rock is vaporized, they push nitrogen gas down the hole to cycle the vapor back to the surface
The video goes through the main challenges they have, like rate of penetration, power output and other small issues.
Will they be successful? Who knows, but the concept seems sound and the tech is proven. Can they do it at scale and consistently enough to change drilling worldwide? Who knows.
https://youtu.be/b_EoZzE7KJ0
To your questions
> 1) keep the hole from collapsing
They are vaporizing the rock which turns everythingeft into an obsidian like substance.
> 2) remove the volume of rock required to continue going down
As the rock is vaporized, they push nitrogen gas down the hole to cycle the vapor back to the surface
The video goes through the main challenges they have, like rate of penetration, power output and other small issues.
Will they be successful? Who knows, but the concept seems sound and the tech is proven. Can they do it at scale and consistently enough to change drilling worldwide? Who knows.
I think the parent comment exposes the obvious flaw of using plasma to drill:
Drilling with diamond bits uses fluid, which is uncompressible. Drilling with plasma uses gas, which is compressible. No matter how thick the obsidian layer get, there is a critical pressure differential between outside and inside and it will crack and collapse.
Another thing that occurred to me after watching some of their videos - how do they plan to control rate of penetration?
Their radiation head thing has to be a certain distance from the rock face it's cutting / vaporizing, but it isn't actually touching anything. So how do they know how fast they're actually vaporizing more hole and how fast to advance?
I'm sure you know this, but for the rest of the audience, conventional drilling rigs use the measured weight of the drillstring to determine how much weight is on the bit and how fast to advance. I don't see any good way for these guys to do anything like that.
Their radiation head thing has to be a certain distance from the rock face it's cutting / vaporizing, but it isn't actually touching anything. So how do they know how fast they're actually vaporizing more hole and how fast to advance?
I'm sure you know this, but for the rest of the audience, conventional drilling rigs use the measured weight of the drillstring to determine how much weight is on the bit and how fast to advance. I don't see any good way for these guys to do anything like that.
Probably some radar or ultrasound distance sensor would suffice. Maybe even ToF of the laser.
I don't think that's anywhere near to the top of the issues they are going to run into.
I don't think that's anywhere near to the top of the issues they are going to run into.
I do agree that it's probably nowhere near the top of the list of issues preventing this thing from working at least as well as conventional drilling technology.
However, anything about radar, ultrasound, or laser ToF would require electronics at the head of this waveguide and a way to communicate data to the surface. From what they're saying, the downhole environment of this thing is going to be very high temperature. Physically vaporizing 100% of the rock to make hole tends to do that. Conventional oilfield electronic tools already have trouble getting the MTBF above a few hundred hours at current downhole temperatures, which are much cooler. It seems likely that no electronics would survive at all at the temperatures they're planning on running.
However, anything about radar, ultrasound, or laser ToF would require electronics at the head of this waveguide and a way to communicate data to the surface. From what they're saying, the downhole environment of this thing is going to be very high temperature. Physically vaporizing 100% of the rock to make hole tends to do that. Conventional oilfield electronic tools already have trouble getting the MTBF above a few hundred hours at current downhole temperatures, which are much cooler. It seems likely that no electronics would survive at all at the temperatures they're planning on running.
Not speaking to the veracity of the statement but quaise answers this in a different article: "A lot of the challenges are the same as for oil and gas. The subsurface is an uncertain environment. The deeper you go, the more extremes you have, but we've come a long way with the oil and gas industry to develop a whole suite of technologies, techniques and measurement systems to minimise that risk. The main challenge is maintaining wellbores from closing in on themselves as you go deeper. There's a lot of pressure in the rock and these holes eventually will collapse. The way we answer that is by creating a glass wall in the rock as we burn it. When our technology vaporises the rock, it creates a glass wall and that remains on the walls and prevents the hole from collapsing."
https://www.energymonitor.ai/tech/geothermal-can-provide-hal...
https://www.energymonitor.ai/tech/geothermal-can-provide-hal...
So, you’re saying they -do- have a massive hole in their geo-logic formation?
I think the idea is that the heat from the radiation turns the walls of the hole into a very hard glass structure, which should be hard enough to withstand the pressure.
That's their idea yes, but it's only an idea, and I am extremely dubious. It's much more like handwaving speculation by people who have no experience in drilling deep wells than a practical proven solution.
They're expecting the hole to be open air, with nothing at all to push back against formation pressure. It has to be, for the radiation system to work. But that means that this supposedly fused glass wall has to withstand all of the formation pressure all the way through the borehole perfectly. And they seem to be expecting this to happen from the vaporized material just condensing on the borehole walls. One little crack anywhere, and the whole borehole could flood with water or oil, possibly even blowing out at the surface. How do they recover from that? They'd have to figure out where the failure was, seal it, then get all the water out, each of which seems practically impossible.
They're expecting the hole to be open air, with nothing at all to push back against formation pressure. It has to be, for the radiation system to work. But that means that this supposedly fused glass wall has to withstand all of the formation pressure all the way through the borehole perfectly. And they seem to be expecting this to happen from the vaporized material just condensing on the borehole walls. One little crack anywhere, and the whole borehole could flood with water or oil, possibly even blowing out at the surface. How do they recover from that? They'd have to figure out where the failure was, seal it, then get all the water out, each of which seems practically impossible.
Oh, I just thought of another issue too. A liquid well-control incident with this thing would indeed suck for the reasons given, but there's a lot of gasses down there too. What happens if there's a gas well-control incident?
It could be flammable natural gas. It may or may not burn or explode in the wellbore, since there's not going to be much oxygen down there. How about at the surface though? Flammable gas erupting out your wellbore with this system sounds very not fun. They have megawatts of electricity flowing around, do you think all of that meets industry standards for avoiding explosions in an environment of flammable gasses? I think there's high potential for a very big boom, and maybe the whole well turning into a giant blowtorch you have no way to control.
Or it could be a poisonous gas like H2S. Poisonous gasses billowing out of your wellbore with this system also sounds like a major pain.
So, who wants to come up with a practical way for this thing to deal with that too? The oilfield has proven methods for preventing it in the first place and dealing with it if it happens anyways. Trip your annular blowout preventer, evacuate the rig, and circulate heavy kill mud until the gas stops flowing.
Maybe these guys could flood the well to stop it. Which means they also need to keep many tankers full of fluid on-hand, and after it works, they're back in the initial situation of needing to figure out how to seal the leak and evacuate the fluid again. I seriously can't think of a good way to do any of that.
It could be flammable natural gas. It may or may not burn or explode in the wellbore, since there's not going to be much oxygen down there. How about at the surface though? Flammable gas erupting out your wellbore with this system sounds very not fun. They have megawatts of electricity flowing around, do you think all of that meets industry standards for avoiding explosions in an environment of flammable gasses? I think there's high potential for a very big boom, and maybe the whole well turning into a giant blowtorch you have no way to control.
Or it could be a poisonous gas like H2S. Poisonous gasses billowing out of your wellbore with this system also sounds like a major pain.
So, who wants to come up with a practical way for this thing to deal with that too? The oilfield has proven methods for preventing it in the first place and dealing with it if it happens anyways. Trip your annular blowout preventer, evacuate the rig, and circulate heavy kill mud until the gas stops flowing.
Maybe these guys could flood the well to stop it. Which means they also need to keep many tankers full of fluid on-hand, and after it works, they're back in the initial situation of needing to figure out how to seal the leak and evacuate the fluid again. I seriously can't think of a good way to do any of that.
Yes that does seem worrying, and might explain why they've only (publicly) drilled a few inches here & there. Maybe they could give the waveguides some outer grid or fins or whatnot to give extra support?
Physical support isn't actually that important - conventional wellbores are not physically supported either until they are cased and cemented, and mostly don't have too much trouble with collapsing. What they need is a seal tight against liquid and gas to prevent it from leaking into the wellbore.
Conventional wellbores accomplish this with the hydraulic pressure of the drilling fluid. These guys can't have any fluid though, so they would have to rely entirely on this condensed rock stuff to both support against the pressure and seal against any leaks. Seems very unlikely, considering that it isn't deliberately created by any kind of process, just randomly condensed from rock vapors.
Note also that they won't really start to run into trouble with this until they get at least a few hundred feet down.
Also, you definitely aren't going to drill more than 6 inches while attempting to physically support the wellbore with any part of the drillstring or waveguide or whatever they're calling this thing.
People should also understand that oil drilling is a highly competitive multi-trillion dollar industry employing tens of thousands of smart people all around the world. Absolutely everything that anyone could think of has already been tried, and adopted if it worked and abandoned if it didn't.
Conventional wellbores accomplish this with the hydraulic pressure of the drilling fluid. These guys can't have any fluid though, so they would have to rely entirely on this condensed rock stuff to both support against the pressure and seal against any leaks. Seems very unlikely, considering that it isn't deliberately created by any kind of process, just randomly condensed from rock vapors.
Note also that they won't really start to run into trouble with this until they get at least a few hundred feet down.
Also, you definitely aren't going to drill more than 6 inches while attempting to physically support the wellbore with any part of the drillstring or waveguide or whatever they're calling this thing.
People should also understand that oil drilling is a highly competitive multi-trillion dollar industry employing tens of thousands of smart people all around the world. Absolutely everything that anyone could think of has already been tried, and adopted if it worked and abandoned if it didn't.
There's an old SciFi story here: https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/30797/pg30797-images.ht... that uses that idea as part of the plot. The hole is not very deep, maybe 150 feet, so the "glass" walls would presumably be strong enough. Much deeper, though, and the walls would almost certainly not be able to withstand the pressure.
What I was wondering when reading the story, though, was what happened to all the rock that was vaporized. It has to leave the hole, else it will prevent the energy beam (in the case of the story, a laser beam) from getting to the bottom of the hole. If you've ever seen smoke (or even steam) coming out of a smoke stack, you have to wonder how the efficiency of the beam would not be cut to zero after the first few feet.
What I was wondering when reading the story, though, was what happened to all the rock that was vaporized. It has to leave the hole, else it will prevent the energy beam (in the case of the story, a laser beam) from getting to the bottom of the hole. If you've ever seen smoke (or even steam) coming out of a smoke stack, you have to wonder how the efficiency of the beam would not be cut to zero after the first few feet.
at 10,000 feet in a thermal area the rock is very hot. Hot rock is ductile and holes will gradually close. Some deep hard rock mines in Northern Ontario encounter this problem where mine working gradually close under extreme pressure over time. The closure can be instant = rock-burst = a local micro-quake. Often there is lateral shear as well. The deepest gold mines in Witwatersrand in South Africa are over 160 degrees in places and workers wear vented/cooled suits. They also have refrigerated cold rooms they can jump into to get cool and get back to another work session.
If you’re vaporizing you’d simply use fans to pull the vaporized material out?
I don’t know anything about geology in particular, but: vaporized rock is vaporized rock, not air. It’s going to cool off as it travels up a relatively cool shaft, and some or all of it will condense and/or solidify into something that will be, in the best case, fine dust. The gasses in the shaft will need to be moving upward faster than the terminal velocity of the removed material for the material to continue moving upward.
In the worst case, I can imagine the vaporized rock depositing (directly in the strict chemistry sense or indirectly via a liquid intermediate) into the walls of the shaft higher up.
In the worst case, I can imagine the vaporized rock depositing (directly in the strict chemistry sense or indirectly via a liquid intermediate) into the walls of the shaft higher up.
Additionally, keeping the vapor from cooling/depositing will also require keeping it above the vapor point of rock - which is well above any metals they might make anything from.
In the "Real Engineering" youtube channel video of this company, they VERY BRIEFLY show that the test area gets covered in a material that is essentially rock-wool. Any attempt to "blow" the vaporized material out will get clogged constantly and at the worst possible times, and they didn't even approach that as a concern or concept in their video. They genuinely seem to be treating "Get the material out" as a "We will figure that out later" problem instead of one of the MAIN PROBLEMS OF THE INDUSTRY.
This project is DOA unless they come out with solutions to that and other serious issues.
This project is DOA unless they come out with solutions to that and other serious issues.
A massive hole!
Wasn't Quaise on HN before, years ago? They've been talking this up since 2018.
The competing technology is diamond drill bits.[1][2]. As synthetic diamonds have become cheaper, drill bits have improved. The old Hughes-style bits with what looked like big bevel gears now have a competitor. The key question is how much drilling you can do before you have to back out the whole drill string. That's a slow process, which gets slower as the drill string gets longer. Polycrystalline diamond bits now sometimes last for 3000+ meters. Maybe longer.
Comments from anyone in the drilling industry?
[1] https://okbit.com/choose-a-geothermal-drill-bit/
[2] https://www.slb.com/products-and-services/scaling-new-energy...
The competing technology is diamond drill bits.[1][2]. As synthetic diamonds have become cheaper, drill bits have improved. The old Hughes-style bits with what looked like big bevel gears now have a competitor. The key question is how much drilling you can do before you have to back out the whole drill string. That's a slow process, which gets slower as the drill string gets longer. Polycrystalline diamond bits now sometimes last for 3000+ meters. Maybe longer.
Comments from anyone in the drilling industry?
[1] https://okbit.com/choose-a-geothermal-drill-bit/
[2] https://www.slb.com/products-and-services/scaling-new-energy...
Drilling is essentially an O(N^2) method. You need to replace your drill bit every X meters, and the time it takes to replace it about linear in the current depth.
Note that diamond (usually called PDC) drill bits have been in common use in the oilfield industry for decades now. Search PDC on your favorite search engine, and you'll find dozens of manufacturers actively selling them, each with a big selection.
Exactly how long you can drill with one varies widely based on a bunch of factors. You do have to pull the whole drill string to change one. It's slow, but not that slow. Most actual oil wells drilled have in the neighborhood of 10 or so trips in and out with drilling tools for the whole operation for various reasons. Varies widely of course depending on a bunch of factors, but that's usually the ballpark. Plus a few more for casing and cementing runs.
Exactly how long you can drill with one varies widely based on a bunch of factors. You do have to pull the whole drill string to change one. It's slow, but not that slow. Most actual oil wells drilled have in the neighborhood of 10 or so trips in and out with drilling tools for the whole operation for various reasons. Varies widely of course depending on a bunch of factors, but that's usually the ballpark. Plus a few more for casing and cementing runs.
Quaise is also aiming for faster drilling not just longer lasting drills.
Anyway, seems like the obvious solution is to stack multiple drill bits at the end and detach ones that get used up. Obviously this doesn’t work, but it’s not clear to me why it shouldn’t.
Anyway, seems like the obvious solution is to stack multiple drill bits at the end and detach ones that get used up. Obviously this doesn’t work, but it’s not clear to me why it shouldn’t.
Main reason it wouldn't work is that once a bit is lost in the bottom of the hole, that portion of hole is done, el fin. These bits are diamond impregnated PDC bits and you cannot drill or mill through them. Once you've dropped one, it would be a required side track.
Now you might ask, cool so just drill around it.
The problem is that with current technology, you HAVE to pull back to the surface first in order to do this. You need to cement the bottom of the current hole and depending on the circumstances, you also need to set a 'whipstock' in order to assist in drilling out of the original hole. Side tracking is a long and arduous process that involves numerous trips out of the hole.
So regarding your lower comment, that's why we can't just have multiple bits and drill around them, or drop them off in their own sidetrack. It's not a bad idea, it's just that the realities of drilling at these depths are harsh and not completely intuitive.
My Creds - currently in the gulf of mexico drilling a well with a total depth of 30,012 feet.
Now you might ask, cool so just drill around it.
The problem is that with current technology, you HAVE to pull back to the surface first in order to do this. You need to cement the bottom of the current hole and depending on the circumstances, you also need to set a 'whipstock' in order to assist in drilling out of the original hole. Side tracking is a long and arduous process that involves numerous trips out of the hole.
So regarding your lower comment, that's why we can't just have multiple bits and drill around them, or drop them off in their own sidetrack. It's not a bad idea, it's just that the realities of drilling at these depths are harsh and not completely intuitive.
My Creds - currently in the gulf of mexico drilling a well with a total depth of 30,012 feet.
Thank you for the detailed answer. I figured there was something wrong with the idea but didn’t know enough about the subject to understand why.
On a recent podcast, I believe the founder said that at 6 miles (close to your 30k well) that this technology could be used anywhere. However, I think they could only get 3-4 mile wells at this point.
So if we already have the ability to drill 6 miles with conventional tech, why not just do geothermal with conventional drilling?
The technology being discussed hasn't actually drilled much of anything yet. Their latest press release with actual numbers[0] gives depths drilled in inches. Nice progress, yeah, but they're not anywhere near competitive with even water wells, much less the current generation of conventional oilfield drilling technology.
Geothermal power is indeed cool, but to get it usable anywhere on Earth instead of a few places where magma currents happen to be near the surface, we'll probably need several orders of magnitude deeper and wider holes than we're currently capable of drilling just for starters. Can these guys do the job? Maybe, but let's just say I'm not planning to invest in them.
[0] https://www.quaise.energy/news/from-lab-to-field-testing
Geothermal power is indeed cool, but to get it usable anywhere on Earth instead of a few places where magma currents happen to be near the surface, we'll probably need several orders of magnitude deeper and wider holes than we're currently capable of drilling just for starters. Can these guys do the job? Maybe, but let's just say I'm not planning to invest in them.
[0] https://www.quaise.energy/news/from-lab-to-field-testing
> The technology being discussed hasn't actually drilled much of anything yet. Their latest press release with actual numbers[0] gives depths drilled in inches.
That's what bothers me about this. If drilling with microwaves works, why aren't there industrial applications? Laser cutters are widely used, from little ones that engrave plastic to big ones that cut steel plate. Yet nobody seems to be selling microwave cutters. In industrial applications, you don't even have to fit the microwave generator into the hole and keep it working in a hostile environment.
The idea was suggested back in 2002, but seems to have gone nowhere.
[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11075717_The_Microw...
That's what bothers me about this. If drilling with microwaves works, why aren't there industrial applications? Laser cutters are widely used, from little ones that engrave plastic to big ones that cut steel plate. Yet nobody seems to be selling microwave cutters. In industrial applications, you don't even have to fit the microwave generator into the hole and keep it working in a hostile environment.
The idea was suggested back in 2002, but seems to have gone nowhere.
[1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11075717_The_Microw...
Microwaves are a longer wavelength of light which makes them less precise. So people don’t use them to cut stuff for the reason lithography swapped to ultra violet light.
This wants to dump a lot of heat into a large area, and there’s industrial uses for that: https://industrialmicrowave.com/industrial-microwave-heating...
You also have a device at home that uses microwaves for heating larger volumes of material…
This wants to dump a lot of heat into a large area, and there’s industrial uses for that: https://industrialmicrowave.com/industrial-microwave-heating...
You also have a device at home that uses microwaves for heating larger volumes of material…
My understanding from earlier encounters with reporting about this company, is not that we can't do geothermal drilling without it, it's that it's not always cost-effective. Drilling is expensive and the cost is a significant fraction of the total capital investment in a geothermal energy plant. In order to make geothermal cost effective everywhere, drilling needs to be made less expensive. This company is not about doing what is currently impossible, it's about doing what is currently possible cheaper
We do use conventional drilling for geothermal!
We just have to be more selective with the location to ensure that there is heat nearer the surface. They're right, if you drill deep enough, it's hot everywhere. Even in non-geothermal oil and gas wells, we commonly have temperatures that exceed 250 degrees Fahrenheit. Our tools that we send down whole are commonly rated for 300-350 degree temperatures. Plenty of temperature down there!
Although I admit, I'm an oil and gas guy and don't really have any industry knowledge of geothermal.
We just have to be more selective with the location to ensure that there is heat nearer the surface. They're right, if you drill deep enough, it's hot everywhere. Even in non-geothermal oil and gas wells, we commonly have temperatures that exceed 250 degrees Fahrenheit. Our tools that we send down whole are commonly rated for 300-350 degree temperatures. Plenty of temperature down there!
Although I admit, I'm an oil and gas guy and don't really have any industry knowledge of geothermal.
He is probably on a rig drilling a deviated well to 30k+ total depth (TD) so that it is not a vertical well 30k+ feet deep or 30k' true vertical depth (TVD), it is instead a deviated well with a long vertical section before the kickoff point which deviates the drillbit to the target at some horizontal displacement from the vertical borehole with the total length of the drillstring being 30k+ feet when they reach TD (total depth). With horizontal drilling and use of steerable mud motors you aren't rotating the drill string constantly as you drill the deviated section and this allows one to push the bit through the formations until you reach the target.
Drilling 6 miles vertically without using a media to conduct cuttings to the surface would be a major change in how things work. I don't think that glassing the inside of the borehole by fusing cuttings as you drill will create a durable borehole. We used to have problems with electronics desoldering at depth in our MWD tools. It gets hot and the pressures can be enormous.
Former Scumbagger MWD engineer here.
Drilling 6 miles vertically without using a media to conduct cuttings to the surface would be a major change in how things work. I don't think that glassing the inside of the borehole by fusing cuttings as you drill will create a durable borehole. We used to have problems with electronics desoldering at depth in our MWD tools. It gets hot and the pressures can be enormous.
Former Scumbagger MWD engineer here.
How dare you Scumberger! (Me sitting in a scumberger wireline unit rn)
You're completely right doodlebug, our MD is around 30,000 with a TVD of about 26,000' (ballparking here so i'm not violating any contracts).
I also appreciate your other comments here!
You're completely right doodlebug, our MD is around 30,000 with a TVD of about 26,000' (ballparking here so i'm not violating any contracts).
I also appreciate your other comments here!
I can't edit that other comment any more. I did once because I had a long anecdote trying to give context to the pet name I apply to them. After I reread it I felt like it was too long and meandering.
So I wrote a longer, more meandering reply to explain the other one. I'm deleting that one too. Too much stuff. Suffice to say that my time with them was interesting, not fun, full of organizational dysfunction on levels I never thought possible. I hope you are having a nice career with them. I cut mine short to save my own sanity and everything else that I loved and cared about.
So I wrote a longer, more meandering reply to explain the other one. I'm deleting that one too. Too much stuff. Suffice to say that my time with them was interesting, not fun, full of organizational dysfunction on levels I never thought possible. I hope you are having a nice career with them. I cut mine short to save my own sanity and everything else that I loved and cared about.
Oh I don't work for them, just with them. I'm an independent contractor now after 5 years with exxonmobil. Cut my career short there for the exact same reasons. Talk about organizational dysfunction!!
I totally get that too. Right after I struck out as an independent contractor a long time ago, I did some stuff for ExxonMobil. Very smart people there. Very tight, collaborative structure. It was easy to see how they had been so successful for so long. Lots of things working in sync. Totally unlike the situation at Scumbagger where you advanced quickly if you could get your snout far enough up the FSM's ass. If you were like me and came from an oilfield culture where ass-kissing could get your ass whooped before they fired you (seismic field crews never put up with any bullshit), then it didn't work for me at all. My FSM actively held me back and denied promotions that I had earned, moving the goalposts every time I hit the expected target. I wasn't the only one. He openly bragged that his payroll burden was the lowest in Anadrill for all regions globally because he had the least number of SFEs on his payroll. He said that he delayed promotions at all levels to keep his numbers low. He had come out of college with an MBA on a fast-track to management.
Life is full of new experiences. Every day finds you at another node on the decision tree that will ultimately define and document your life to others. Pick the wrong path and your options at the next node will be less attractive than those behind you. Pick the right path and you can continue like branches on a hackberry, making the most of every opportunity to continue growing toward the light.
Had I followed the path that vengeful rage had offered me I would never have had the opportunities to polish my skills and grow my career into a successful consultancy. They got off easy because I chose to take the long view for my family's sake and chose to let it slide while taking every opportunity to find another job. If I had let it be personal then a lot of things would be different.
Life is full of new experiences. Every day finds you at another node on the decision tree that will ultimately define and document your life to others. Pick the wrong path and your options at the next node will be less attractive than those behind you. Pick the right path and you can continue like branches on a hackberry, making the most of every opportunity to continue growing toward the light.
Had I followed the path that vengeful rage had offered me I would never have had the opportunities to polish my skills and grow my career into a successful consultancy. They got off easy because I chose to take the long view for my family's sake and chose to let it slide while taking every opportunity to find another job. If I had let it be personal then a lot of things would be different.
They earned any moniker that I apply. Hopefully none of the people that I worked with are still there.
[deleted]
Well, where are the used up drill bits supposed to go to in a hole just as wide as the bits itself except for up and out?
Why don’t they just retract the bits and change them like I would on a regular drill that needs a new bit?
Is the failure mode they always or often fall off the shank into the hole and they can’t be extracted?
Is the failure mode they always or often fall off the shank into the hole and they can’t be extracted?
That's exactly what they do. It just takes a while since there's tens of thousands of feet of drillstring.
Then what’s the jive about needing to drill around the old bits?
That was answering silly speculation about intentionally leaving worn-out drill bits behind. There are actually workable procedures for drilling around things, but it's far more cumbersome and time-consuming than replacing a bit normally. Those procedures used for things like the drillstring getting stuck due to hole collapse; nobody would do that just for a worn-out drill bit.
The actual way to avoid the problem is by using bits whose design lifetime in the formation you're drilling is at least as long as the hole section you're planning to drill.
The actual way to avoid the problem is by using bits whose design lifetime in the formation you're drilling is at least as long as the hole section you're planning to drill.
Removing many miles of pipe to swap out a drill bit at the end is slow and seems rather inefficient.
Which suggests just leaving the old drill bit somewhere in the ground. But currently doing that would also involve removing the pipe, as to why: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43371776
Which suggests just leaving the old drill bit somewhere in the ground. But currently doing that would also involve removing the pipe, as to why: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43371776
Again going for obvious solution, drop it, back up a few meters and drill around. Alternatively, have pre drilled side paths for drill bit drop off.
The drill is on the end of what amounts to a several km long rope. I’m pretty sure a side hole would introduce friction with the side that wasn’t there before, making it easy to stick going in and out. I think if the obvious solution worked then people would already be doing it, cause they’d save multiple millions of dollars.
They can do side drills, but apparently that also requires removing the pipe which is the bit I was missing.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43371776
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43371776
Ah yep that does explain it well.
[deleted]
How do you pre-drill side paths ? Isn't being able to drill the hard part ? I am not saying it's dumb but from what I know about the industry (almost nothing) it does not seem simple at all
They need to be able to steer drills for all kinds of reasons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAhdb7dKQpU
Actual answer seems to be drilling side holes also involves removing the pipe. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43371776
Actual answer seems to be drilling side holes also involves removing the pipe. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43371776
A relevant video by Real Engineering: "Geothermal Energy is Changing" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_EoZzE7KJ0 (21m53s) [2025-03-01]
The company being discussed is Quaise Energy: https://www.quaise.energy/ , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaise
The company being discussed is Quaise Energy: https://www.quaise.energy/ , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaise
One thing that video left me wondering is what happens to the vaporized rock; how are we collecting or transporting it so it doesen't immediately re-solidify, stringify and block the hole?
That's a valid question. As the vaporized rock cools it needs to be directed to the annular walls of the borehole being drilled. If it flutters chaotically up the along the drillstring and sticks itself to the drillstring then you are effectively blocking the borehole as you drill. Even if you rotate the drillstring the cumulative effect is that the drillstring becomes a long length of sandpaper or a vertical grinder, grinding the fused rock from the annulus above where you are currently drilling.
You can see in that very video that it's not even an unsolved problem, it's an unaddressed problem. They currently handwave it away as "vent the molten rock" as if that is a solved problem.
At 6:34 in the video, they very briefly show a running test drill, and then cut immediately to the ceiling of the test chamber with a large specimen of rock wool.
That rock wool will completely clog any mechanism they could come up with. How do you reliably transport rock wool from 20 miles underground to the surface?
This project/company is a dead end unless they could magic away that problem.
At 6:34 in the video, they very briefly show a running test drill, and then cut immediately to the ceiling of the test chamber with a large specimen of rock wool.
That rock wool will completely clog any mechanism they could come up with. How do you reliably transport rock wool from 20 miles underground to the surface?
This project/company is a dead end unless they could magic away that problem.
It's true that it's not entirely clear but it seems there's a nitrogen gas that pushes the gasses back up ?
It's also not clear how much of the rock mass actually resolididy instead going away as gas but for the part that does, it seems to be do so in a fashion that resembles mineral wool.
It is only shortly mentionned in the video but it seems like one of the main issues is what happens when water starts infiltrating your hole (it's unclear how much the glassified walls of the holes are a protection against that) and then you waste a lot of energy vaporizing liters and liters of water.
Unless... you close the hole at the top to collect the steam and have it turn a turbine to recoup electricity expenditures ?
Unless... you close the hole at the top to collect the steam and have it turn a turbine to recoup electricity expenditures ?
If the hole is 2 miles long, I assume the steam would condense before reaching the top. And I guess lowering the pressure again, so I don’t know if that’s possible. But I’m not a physics expert.
At depth, natural gas is in the liquid phase in the reservoir due to high temperatures and overburden pressure. Once the drillbit penetrates the seal of the formation containing natural gas or other liquids then the gas will begin to be carried up the annulus of the well in the drilling mud to the surface. As it moves closer to the surface it expands and crosses into the bubble point into the gas phase which is the dangerous condition that leads to blowouts and the loss of the well and potentially lives at the surface.
It is important to be able to detect the formation boundaries and to have the mud weight tailored to the expected pressures within the target zones so that blowouts can be avoided. Pre-drill predictions of downhole pressures are made from seismic data and can be extremely accurate, especially when correlated with borehole data from regions with similar geologic history.
I did pre-drill pressure predictions as a geophysicist. Very interesting stuff.
Here is a little info about well control and gas kicks.[0]
[0]https://www.drillingmanual.com/gas-kick-behavior-expansion-m...
It is important to be able to detect the formation boundaries and to have the mud weight tailored to the expected pressures within the target zones so that blowouts can be avoided. Pre-drill predictions of downhole pressures are made from seismic data and can be extremely accurate, especially when correlated with borehole data from regions with similar geologic history.
I did pre-drill pressure predictions as a geophysicist. Very interesting stuff.
Here is a little info about well control and gas kicks.[0]
[0]https://www.drillingmanual.com/gas-kick-behavior-expansion-m...
I have always thought that very deep geothermal is a massive potential source of renewable energy that gets far too little attention.
If we can make it work, we have a source of "limitless" (at terrestrial human scale) energy that doesn't require expensive battery backup and is dispatchable. It could also be used as a source of industrial process heat, cogeneration (if it's safe to do near or inside city limits), etc. I've even seen proposals to make methane or liquid fuels by injecting CO2 and H2 or H2O down there and using it as a thermally driven in situ synfuel reactor.
Solar is one way of using a ready-made natural nuclear reactor. This is another. Some geologists believe the Earth's core is a natural fission reactor, and a few people have proposed other even more exotic possibilities:
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep37740
If we can make it work, we have a source of "limitless" (at terrestrial human scale) energy that doesn't require expensive battery backup and is dispatchable. It could also be used as a source of industrial process heat, cogeneration (if it's safe to do near or inside city limits), etc. I've even seen proposals to make methane or liquid fuels by injecting CO2 and H2 or H2O down there and using it as a thermally driven in situ synfuel reactor.
Solar is one way of using a ready-made natural nuclear reactor. This is another. Some geologists believe the Earth's core is a natural fission reactor, and a few people have proposed other even more exotic possibilities:
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep37740
Hype for this is extremely premature, they've only drilled inches in a lab.
Founder was on What's Your Problem podcast recently [1] and I seem to recall them having much deeper wells already complete.
https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/whats-your-problem/harnessin...
https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/whats-your-problem/harnessin...
This article from 2 days ago says they have a test rig that is drilling outside. They don't say exactly how deep they have drilled but mentions they have another site where they will attempt to drill up to 100 feet.
So sounds like they are at the very beginning of piloting. I'm not going to listen to an hour podcast to see if it is claiming anything different, if you have a text source I'd be interested.
https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/geothermal/the-smell-of...
So sounds like they are at the very beginning of piloting. I'm not going to listen to an hour podcast to see if it is claiming anything different, if you have a text source I'd be interested.
https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/geothermal/the-smell-of...
I transcribed the podcast for you, but I think you're right.
https://pastebin.com/raw/PG5JdAKv
https://pastebin.com/raw/PG5JdAKv
Eavor is a Canadian geothermal company that does closed loop systems with diamond drills and insulated drill pipe. https://www.eavor.com/technology/
Closed loop and insulated pipe allows a geothermal project to be drilled into hot rock, which is pretty much everywhere, even if there is no water.
They have a demonstration project in Alberta, a 'commercial' project in Geretsried, Germany (4500 meters, 64MW thermal, 8.2MW electric) and a deep demonstration project in New Mexico (5500 meters, no news since early 2023).
From the company website, it looks like the projects work though Eavor doesn't give any data on their projects that would help calculate the economics. The heavy presence of government in their media suggests that, at least for now, significant government involvement is required to get projects built.
Closed loop and insulated pipe allows a geothermal project to be drilled into hot rock, which is pretty much everywhere, even if there is no water.
They have a demonstration project in Alberta, a 'commercial' project in Geretsried, Germany (4500 meters, 64MW thermal, 8.2MW electric) and a deep demonstration project in New Mexico (5500 meters, no news since early 2023).
From the company website, it looks like the projects work though Eavor doesn't give any data on their projects that would help calculate the economics. The heavy presence of government in their media suggests that, at least for now, significant government involvement is required to get projects built.
Why not just use a laser? I vaporize rock instantly with an 80w CO2. vacuum the dust up and blow it out the other end, done. Throw it on a galvo, you can control where it aims and fires.
I don't know much about lasers, but this seems a very "dirty" environment for that sort of thing. Wouldn't the lenses etc get all fouled up?
your beam waist is going to increase (and intensity is going to drop) after a few hundred meters. you'd have to lower the whole laser down the hole
That's what adjustable diopters are for. Also, at certain power levels, the beam is self-focusing.
Maybe use adjustable lenses?
Dust? Vaporized rock going through a vacuum is not going to be kind to the inside of that vacuum.
Yes, this is a known thing to anyone that does stone engraving for a hobby. Those are then considered consumable parts in the operation.
<armchair geologist hat on>
Wonder if they could drill a stable hole with a honeycomb arrangement of lasers like engines on the Starship, but with smaller radius. It wouldn't strictly be an empty hole but just a bundle of small diameter holes. Whatever the laser hits, vaporizes until it's out or turns into glass on the side. Whatever caves in just keeps getting vaporized.
Wonder if they could drill a stable hole with a honeycomb arrangement of lasers like engines on the Starship, but with smaller radius. It wouldn't strictly be an empty hole but just a bundle of small diameter holes. Whatever the laser hits, vaporizes until it's out or turns into glass on the side. Whatever caves in just keeps getting vaporized.
Don’t tell the Evangelicals, they will believe you are drilling a hole to hell.
(And the oil companies will view the competition as from Satan?)
(And the oil companies will view the competition as from Satan?)
I read about this years ago on HN and then ... nothing. Glad to see it back in the news. It really would be tremendous if it works.
Some maths.
1 squared meter surface times 10 km in depth yields ... 10,000 cubic m of mass to be vaporized and then "dispersed" into the atmosphere.
At a density of 5.5 kg/dm^3 it would weight about ... 55 thousands metric tonnes of rock.
To vaporize 1 kg of liquid water it takes 2250 kcal of energy.
If that mass was water it would require 1.23e11 kcal of energy.
I suspect that both the amount of energy needed and the amount of pollution added would be unbearable.
And this is for a hole that's "just" 10 km deep.
1 squared meter surface times 10 km in depth yields ... 10,000 cubic m of mass to be vaporized and then "dispersed" into the atmosphere.
At a density of 5.5 kg/dm^3 it would weight about ... 55 thousands metric tonnes of rock.
To vaporize 1 kg of liquid water it takes 2250 kcal of energy.
If that mass was water it would require 1.23e11 kcal of energy.
I suspect that both the amount of energy needed and the amount of pollution added would be unbearable.
And this is for a hole that's "just" 10 km deep.
Think you're somewhat off. Quaise says they intend to allow their tech to be "plugged into existing oil rigs," and most boreholes are 5-20 in wide.
20 in down 7.6 mi is 0.2 m^2 down 12321 m. This gives 2500 m^3 or 2.5e-6 km^3 of rock.
Google says "rocks are generally between 1600 kg/m^3 (sediments) and 3500 kg/m^3 (gabbro)" so going with 2500 km/m^3 that would be 6240000 kg, 6.24 Gg, or 6.24 thousand metric tons.
Heat of vaporization of water is roughly 2250 kJ/kg, or 537 kcal/kg, so if the mass was water it would need 14e9 kJ, 14 TJ, or 3.35e9 kcal to vaporize.
For a 5 in borehole divide all the above by 16. This ignores the heat required to actually change the temperature of the water, but I'm betting you can get a lot of that back via condensation, and for this reason I'd also assume that much of the rock will not end up in atmosphere. These assumptions also go entirely out the window of there's an inflow of material, but unfortunately I'm betting that's exactly what will happen.
Edit: Fixed post after I confused radius and diameter. Someone should probably check my math as well.
20 in down 7.6 mi is 0.2 m^2 down 12321 m. This gives 2500 m^3 or 2.5e-6 km^3 of rock.
Google says "rocks are generally between 1600 kg/m^3 (sediments) and 3500 kg/m^3 (gabbro)" so going with 2500 km/m^3 that would be 6240000 kg, 6.24 Gg, or 6.24 thousand metric tons.
Heat of vaporization of water is roughly 2250 kJ/kg, or 537 kcal/kg, so if the mass was water it would need 14e9 kJ, 14 TJ, or 3.35e9 kcal to vaporize.
For a 5 in borehole divide all the above by 16. This ignores the heat required to actually change the temperature of the water, but I'm betting you can get a lot of that back via condensation, and for this reason I'd also assume that much of the rock will not end up in atmosphere. These assumptions also go entirely out the window of there's an inflow of material, but unfortunately I'm betting that's exactly what will happen.
Edit: Fixed post after I confused radius and diameter. Someone should probably check my math as well.
Your cross section area is off by two orders of magnitude. They currently are drilling a 0.008 m² hole at one meter per hour with 1 MW of power. They hope to scale that up to a 0.032 m² hole while maintaining the same rate of depth penetration and energy use per meter [0].
0. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b_EoZzE7KJ0&t=500s
0. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b_EoZzE7KJ0&t=500s
1 m^2 x 10,000 m = 10,000 m^3
10 km^3 = 10 x 1,000 x 1,000 x 1,000 m^3 != 10,000 m^3
10 km^3 = 10 x 1,000 x 1,000 x 1,000 m^3 != 10,000 m^3
Correct! I fixed my numbers too. Still a lot of stuff.
63 comments and no one brings up Betteridge’s Law of Headlines: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."
(The 63 comments essentially support Betteridge.)
(The 63 comments essentially support Betteridge.)
Actually, the real trick is to invent the technology that eliminates the need to drill so deep. But for that invention to be made/found, we need to go a bit more "quantum".
I feel the energy spent vaporizing the rocks is more then the energy gained.
No, if it works as planned then the energy is cheap in comparison to the total cost of drilling a hole.
They plan to use just a megawatt of power to drill, it's not even close.
The oil and gas industry currently uses "mud" either oil based or water based, in order to keep their holes from collapsing on themselves. Holes collapse. It's what they want to do, this is a factor of overburden - the collective weight of the rock above the hole 'pushing' down. It is also the primary means of communication with downhole tools through mud pulse telemetry, and the primary means of removing rocks - currently in the form of cuttings.
There is no mention of this mud system or other alternative (an innovation that would also need to be ground breaking for the industry) that will 1) keep the hole from collapsing 2) remove the volume of rock required to continue going down and 3) allow communication with your downhole tools.
It feels like this is a massive hole in the logic.