Liberapay(en.liberapay.com)
en.liberapay.com
Liberapay
https://en.liberapay.com/
91 comments
Cont... To the best of my understanding and lived experiences, there is a strong correlation between 'ethical compromise' on the part of the content creator and how much they can expect to be compromised for their work
1. A donation link in the footer... people only see it if they're looking for it
2. More overt reminders (when KDE added a single yearly popup notification, donations dramatically increased)
3. Adding tiers to step up the donations (e.g. maybe you could convince most of the $3.99 folks to do $4.99)
4. Adding rewards to fuel the funder's egos (I try to send personal emails thanking them but this isn't an explicitly mentioned 'reward' unlike, say, positions in the credits)
5. In addition to rewards, supplementing income with sponsors. The sponsors frequently are exploiting both the creator and the consumer (e.g. Honey), but nevertheless compensation does increase. Also, affiliate programs. Hard to do without your own integrity being compromised when recommending products.
6. 'Dangerous' monetization that plays with emotions. Onlyfans creators creating pseudo-relationships. Entire sponsored videos for stuff like gambling.
Of course, it is hard to argue that the oft. underpaid content producers are really the ones making ethical concessions when they exist under a system that... underfunds them... but nevertheless it is undeniable that there are ethical concessions, and these concessions are made because they increase revenue.
The really really sad part is that you really only see big creators throwing doing this stuff despite already having more than enough, and they always get away with it, whereas if a small creator were to pull this their audience would eat them alive.
1. A donation link in the footer... people only see it if they're looking for it
2. More overt reminders (when KDE added a single yearly popup notification, donations dramatically increased)
3. Adding tiers to step up the donations (e.g. maybe you could convince most of the $3.99 folks to do $4.99)
4. Adding rewards to fuel the funder's egos (I try to send personal emails thanking them but this isn't an explicitly mentioned 'reward' unlike, say, positions in the credits)
5. In addition to rewards, supplementing income with sponsors. The sponsors frequently are exploiting both the creator and the consumer (e.g. Honey), but nevertheless compensation does increase. Also, affiliate programs. Hard to do without your own integrity being compromised when recommending products.
6. 'Dangerous' monetization that plays with emotions. Onlyfans creators creating pseudo-relationships. Entire sponsored videos for stuff like gambling.
Of course, it is hard to argue that the oft. underpaid content producers are really the ones making ethical concessions when they exist under a system that... underfunds them... but nevertheless it is undeniable that there are ethical concessions, and these concessions are made because they increase revenue.
The really really sad part is that you really only see big creators throwing doing this stuff despite already having more than enough, and they always get away with it, whereas if a small creator were to pull this their audience would eat them alive.
> Adding tiers to step up the donations (e.g. maybe you could convince most of the $3.99 folks to do $4.99)
.99 price points are explicitly designed to manipulate. If I ever went to donate and saw that as a tier, I’d close the window and reconsider my support of the creator. Don’t try to fool me, be honest and ask for the full amount.
.99 price points are explicitly designed to manipulate. If I ever went to donate and saw that as a tier, I’d close the window and reconsider my support of the creator. Don’t try to fool me, be honest and ask for the full amount.
> Onlyfans creators creating pseudo-relationships.
Twitch, as well. I've stopped watching streamer after streamer when it became clear they were only responding to people throwing money at them constantly.
I've watched people spend $50-100 a night with a streamer. It's insane. Well over $10k a year.
The same people probably write a $100 check to the local food pantry.
Twitch, as well. I've stopped watching streamer after streamer when it became clear they were only responding to people throwing money at them constantly.
I've watched people spend $50-100 a night with a streamer. It's insane. Well over $10k a year.
The same people probably write a $100 check to the local food pantry.
Yeah it’s hard for me to watch. I feel sorry for the people so attention deprived that they need to throw dozens of dollars at a streamer who makes 10000 a night for any sort of acknowledgment
That’s more or less most of the bigger Twitch streamers, because they can’t exactly keep up with the pace at which the chat scrolls by and also pay attention to whatever they’re doing.
That is why I don’t really watch those but prefer smaller streamers that might enjoy a particular type of game, or even watch the occasional programming stream. If I have a question, suddenly it’s not impossible to get an answer and most of them are also a bit more chill.
I might still occasionally throw some money their way, much like one would consider tipping a live performer, nothing too crazy though.
That is why I don’t really watch those but prefer smaller streamers that might enjoy a particular type of game, or even watch the occasional programming stream. If I have a question, suddenly it’s not impossible to get an answer and most of them are also a bit more chill.
I might still occasionally throw some money their way, much like one would consider tipping a live performer, nothing too crazy though.
It's actually more-or-less the big Youtube streamers too. Because no one can keep up with the chat scroll, so ya know, they don't read everything.
I occasionally donate some money to Signal. But I do not want to feel like some part of "community". I want to help them fund the service. Not join a movement.
> I've watched people spend $50-100 a night with a streamer. It's insane. Well over $10k a year.
$50-$100 in a night is not so special? You could spend that going clubbing. Doesn't mean they spend that every night.
Tbf if I'm spending that much I'd rather pay for in-person sexual services because that costs about the same and is obviously much nicer.
Or do you mean they spend that much every single night? That sounds obsessive even without considering the money spent.
$50-$100 in a night is not so special? You could spend that going clubbing. Doesn't mean they spend that every night.
Tbf if I'm spending that much I'd rather pay for in-person sexual services because that costs about the same and is obviously much nicer.
Or do you mean they spend that much every single night? That sounds obsessive even without considering the money spent.
Have you considered self-hosting a payment page? I'm asking because I've been building Open Payment Host[1] a self-hosted FOSS payments host supporting multiple payment gateways; still very much a WIP but I hope soon it will be viable enough for someone like you.
P.S. Please ignore the AI autocomplete feature, I included it as part of Google hackathon to raise funds for the project; I'll be removing it in the upcoming release.
[1] https://github.com/abishekmuthian/open-payment-host
P.S. Please ignore the AI autocomplete feature, I included it as part of Google hackathon to raise funds for the project; I'll be removing it in the upcoming release.
[1] https://github.com/abishekmuthian/open-payment-host
What does your app do differently than something like coindrop[0] which is essentially a linktree page linking to all donation platforms for a creator
[0] https://coindrop.to/
[0] https://coindrop.to/
Open Payment Host seems to connect to credit card gateways (Stripe/Square) whereas coindrop seems to link to P2P style payment methods where you are sending funds to an "address".
That’s correct, I’ll be adding all leading payment gateways.
Hi, I'm excited to see more FOSS options available. I don't think this is exactly what I need because I just want a very simple interface like what liberapay provides... not to sell anything... but I'm very happy more people are working on this
I absolutely get it, thank you. Librepay is simple and nice; my project is geared more towards indies who want to sell their products without paying double commissions and not having to deal with multiple payment gateway integrations.
Ko-fi is unfamiliar? Not to me. I prefer it over gofundme and patreon. And LiberaPay i'd never heard of.
No, the opposite. I’m saying I added a Kofi because Liberapay is unfamiliar
Ah sorry for my misunderstanding
I follow a lot of very small youtube creators. I can often convince them to start a liberapay just for me to donate. They get 100% of the cut* (Patreon takes 12-16%) and I am supporting both the creator and Liberapay's popularity
The main downside is lack of integrations with the tiered perks Patreon offers. Most of the creators I follow don't really rely too heavily on the feature but I can see it becoming a larger hassle if a creator has to manage two platforms
* less fees
The main downside is lack of integrations with the tiered perks Patreon offers. Most of the creators I follow don't really rely too heavily on the feature but I can see it becoming a larger hassle if a creator has to manage two platforms
* less fees
Just out of interest because it sounds a little too good to be true, but it the content creators keep 100% of the donations, how are LibrePay funding the operation itself ?
Edit : My lazy self actually went and read up on it :
> Liberapay does not take a cut of payments, the service is funded by the donations to its own account. However there are payment processing fees.
This is a great example of dogfooding.
Edit : My lazy self actually went and read up on it :
> Liberapay does not take a cut of payments, the service is funded by the donations to its own account. However there are payment processing fees.
This is a great example of dogfooding.
Yup, liberapay is funded by donations on liberapay
https://liberapay.com/Liberapay/
They're the second largest recipient
https://liberapay.com/Liberapay/
They're the second largest recipient
Who or what is the largest?
https://en.liberapay.com/explore/recipients largest is Librepay. Second largest is "infosec.exchange" Mastodon instance.
infosec.exchange was first when I made that comment. I guess this HN post helped get a lot more support for liberapay
Absolutely not a bad thing! I actually joined in myself, I'm convinced this is the best way to process donations!
Personally I disagree with the technical stack, but I love the project and the people behind it so I too wanna support it as much as possible.
It's hard to be "the Wikipedia of X" but once a tool has achieved Wikipedia status, competitors have basically no chance. A truly crowd-sourced and people funded solution is irreplaceable once it's mature and fully established
It's hard to be "the Wikipedia of X" but once a tool has achieved Wikipedia status, competitors have basically no chance. A truly crowd-sourced and people funded solution is irreplaceable once it's mature and fully established
I think a notable feature of patreon's cut is that they only take it on withdrawal. I don't know how that works for individual's tax exposure, but it does serve to inflate the cash amounts on the site from people using their patreon income to patronise others.
Ah that is interesting. I didn't realize that. Is Patreon then allowed to basically act like a bank? Where they can invest the cash that's currently sitting in a Patreon account? Essentially, everyone leaving money in Patreon is giving them a micro-loan
A somewhat related feature of Liberapay is there's a lot of flexibility in the frequency of your payments. You can enter in $5/week but it will suggest a payment frequency that minimizes fee. E.g. paying $21.43 every 30 days instead.
A somewhat related feature of Liberapay is there's a lot of flexibility in the frequency of your payments. You can enter in $5/week but it will suggest a payment frequency that minimizes fee. E.g. paying $21.43 every 30 days instead.
Not necessarily. Not every entity can do whatever they want with deposits from others, you need to be an actual bank and regulated as such to have the right to invest other people's money
It would be nice if you could add multiple (youtube) channels, as team members, and fund the collective from your (fixed) donation, each then takes their (partially auto) share from it.
100% less fees is not 100%. that’s like saying a bacon cheeseburger is vegetarian, except for the meat.
[deleted]
Fellow Emacsers, note there are a few accounts on Liberapay of people who make some of the things we love:
Org Mode: https://en.liberapay.com/org-mode/
- Ihor Radchenko (Org mode maintainer): https://en.liberapay.com/yantar92/
- Bastien "bzg" Guerry: https://en.liberapay.com/bzg/
- Timothy "Tec": https://en.liberapay.com/tec/
Magit: https://en.liberapay.com/magit/
- Tarsius (Magit, Transient maintainer): https://en.liberapay.com/tarsius/
Guile Emacs: https://en.liberapay.com/guile-emacs/
Org Mode: https://en.liberapay.com/org-mode/
- Ihor Radchenko (Org mode maintainer): https://en.liberapay.com/yantar92/
- Bastien "bzg" Guerry: https://en.liberapay.com/bzg/
- Timothy "Tec": https://en.liberapay.com/tec/
Magit: https://en.liberapay.com/magit/
- Tarsius (Magit, Transient maintainer): https://en.liberapay.com/tarsius/
Guile Emacs: https://en.liberapay.com/guile-emacs/
I like librapay, I wish more people would use it.
I also hope they can reduce the ratio paid to paypal/stripe. More money should go to devs.
I also hope they can reduce the ratio paid to paypal/stripe. More money should go to devs.
> What are the payment processing fees?
> The fees vary by payment processor, payment method, countries and currencies. In the last year, the average fee percentages have been 3.1% for the payments processed by Stripe and 5% for the payments processed by PayPal.
Giving 97% of the money to devs is pretty amazing. They also don't take a cut from donations made.
> The fees vary by payment processor, payment method, countries and currencies. In the last year, the average fee percentages have been 3.1% for the payments processed by Stripe and 5% for the payments processed by PayPal.
Giving 97% of the money to devs is pretty amazing. They also don't take a cut from donations made.
I don't think that would be possible, as Liberapay is essentially just a UI for accepting donations directly into the developers' Stripe/PayPal accounts.
good catch, it is not a payment processor.
But maybe they can negotiate a better deal for their payments?
They don't even have the ability to group transactions together for US payments (or payments in Australia, Japan, Mexico, Malaysia, Hong Kong, New Zealand, Singapore, and others [1]) to lower fees, so I think any hope that a project like this would have any leverage is misplaced.
[1]: https://liberapay.com/about/global
[1]: https://liberapay.com/about/global
I asked Stripe back in 2018 if we could expect their unexplained same-region limitation on transfers to be lifted. They said it would be lifted soon. It's 2025, the limitation still exists and I still don't know why.
Payment processing is dominated by a massive monopoly, leaving no room for negotiation. The industry is controlled by global elites and financial powerhouses who gatekeep access. Only stablecoins have the potential to disrupt this cycle and offer an alternative.
Doubtful. It's 100% funded by its own Liberapay page.[0] It's the second-most donated to recipient but at about $650 a week, that's not even enough to hire a full time dev let alone the business skills needed to pull something like that off
[0] https://en.liberapay.com/Liberapay/
[0] https://en.liberapay.com/Liberapay/
That's more than median dev salary for most European country.
https://helloastra.com/blog/article/average-software-develop...
https://helloastra.com/blog/article/average-software-develop...
That's about $33.8k a year. Before taxes and with no benefits
The numbers in your source also contradict your statement, but point taken that European dev salaries are much nominally lower than American ones. It's still obviously not enough to pay a dev and business expert
EDIT: wow I just checked and the weekly amount they receive just went up to ~$875!
The numbers in your source also contradict your statement, but point taken that European dev salaries are much nominally lower than American ones. It's still obviously not enough to pay a dev and business expert
EDIT: wow I just checked and the weekly amount they receive just went up to ~$875!
Related: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flattr flattr , which shutdown in 2023.
I wish they had ways to setup fixed price recurring payment items.
Right now I use gumroad but they take a very high fee.
Right now I use gumroad but they take a very high fee.
Does Liberapay provide the various tax forms a receiver needs to file their yearly returns in the US?
Last time I checked into this, the answer was no. This is very much a more EU-focused service, based on the stuff they offer. And even then, they don't pre-collect for VAT like Patreon does.
(I just checked and couldn't get a definitive answer but since it's been 5 years [1] since there was any update on a ticket requesting the ability to offer invoices in PDF form of your monthly receivables, my gut instinct says the answer is still, "no")
[1]: https://github.com/liberapay/liberapay.com/issues/714
(I just checked and couldn't get a definitive answer but since it's been 5 years [1] since there was any update on a ticket requesting the ability to offer invoices in PDF form of your monthly receivables, my gut instinct says the answer is still, "no")
[1]: https://github.com/liberapay/liberapay.com/issues/714
This is just my assumption, but I think liberapay being targeted at "to individual" payments/donations is the reason why they don't push too hard in adding these kind of features.
The receiver does not need any tax forms in the US.
Payers are obligated to issue tax-related forms in certain circumstances. But the receivers don't even need those to file their own tax paperwork.
Payers are obligated to issue tax-related forms in certain circumstances. But the receivers don't even need those to file their own tax paperwork.
This is an oversimplification. More than likely, income from Liberapay can be categorized as a 'gift.' Often, gifts aren't taxed to the recipient, so long as its less than $18,000 (this is not tax advice), Liberapay does not provide tax forms or tax advice. Its up to you to accurately categorize the income you receive based on the LiberaPay ToS, the expectations of your donors and the IRS, and your specific campaign.
Your payment processors (PayPal and Stripe) absolutely do provide tax forms. Its your responsibility to make appropriate use of them. But Liberapay itself doesn't have forms it needs to provide (and by god you don't want to provide tax forms or tax advice you aren't required by law to give)
Your payment processors (PayPal and Stripe) absolutely do provide tax forms. Its your responsibility to make appropriate use of them. But Liberapay itself doesn't have forms it needs to provide (and by god you don't want to provide tax forms or tax advice you aren't required by law to give)
Pretty sure that is misleading, i'm no tax lawyer but gift rules only apply to friends and family. Buskers have to report income from performing, waitstaff have to report voluntary tips given to them and while there's probably no caselaw yet, I would suspect the IRS would fight you on income you receive entertaining other people not being 'gifts'.
A gift is defined by the IRS as "Any transfer to an individual, either directly or indirectly, where full consideration (measured in money or money's worth) is not received in return."
Nowhere in this statement does it say "gift rules only apply to friends and family"
If you reach the point where a substantial portion of your income is Patreon or whatever (and thus, you wouldn't be otherwise performing the entertainment service), I'm sure the IRS would view it differently.
"a recipient generally can exclude from gross income for federal income tax purposes a donation from a nongovernment donor as a gift if the donation is motivated by detached and disinterested generosity and is not in anticipation of an economic benefit or in return for services."
ref https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-wd/03-0025.pdf and Commissioner v. Duberstein, 363 U.S. 278 (1960)
perhaps, my categorization of "more than likely" could be incorrect. But given how relatively small[0] most accounts make on Liberapay, that is what I imagine most in the US would be calling it.
https://liberapay.com/explore/recipients
Nowhere in this statement does it say "gift rules only apply to friends and family"
If you reach the point where a substantial portion of your income is Patreon or whatever (and thus, you wouldn't be otherwise performing the entertainment service), I'm sure the IRS would view it differently.
"a recipient generally can exclude from gross income for federal income tax purposes a donation from a nongovernment donor as a gift if the donation is motivated by detached and disinterested generosity and is not in anticipation of an economic benefit or in return for services."
ref https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-wd/03-0025.pdf and Commissioner v. Duberstein, 363 U.S. 278 (1960)
perhaps, my categorization of "more than likely" could be incorrect. But given how relatively small[0] most accounts make on Liberapay, that is what I imagine most in the US would be calling it.
https://liberapay.com/explore/recipients
Since it's nonprofit, are donations 501c3 deductible? I am on the council of a conservation foundation based in Costa Rica. We want to make it easy for US based philanthropists to donate and receive some tax benefits from the donation.
There is an organization named Amigos of Costa Rica [1] which is set up for this purpose, but they have somewhat steep fees on top of the payment processor's, and they only reconcile the balance on a weekly basis, through wire xfers, which is not ideal.
[1 - https://www.amigosofcostarica.org/]
There is an organization named Amigos of Costa Rica [1] which is set up for this purpose, but they have somewhat steep fees on top of the payment processor's, and they only reconcile the balance on a weekly basis, through wire xfers, which is not ideal.
[1 - https://www.amigosofcostarica.org/]
Donations to Liberapay itself could be considered tax deductible if they are domiciled in the same tax region as you. Liberapay is the nonprofit, not the parties it transmits funds to.
It is French, so not specifically 501c3.
https://en.liberapay.com/about/legal
https://en.liberapay.com/about/legal
> 745 new donations have been started in the past month, increasing total weekly funding by $899.10
> 14 new pledges have been made in the past month, adding $35.79 of weekly donations waiting to be claimed.
> 20,426.66 was transferred last week between 14,076 users.
Not really encouraging stats for a system that has been around for ten years, though maybe the PR from being mentioned on here will give it a boost.
(It took considerable effort to copy that text, because they are using text-selection blocking tricks. Nowhere else on the page is this the case...)
> 14 new pledges have been made in the past month, adding $35.79 of weekly donations waiting to be claimed.
> 20,426.66 was transferred last week between 14,076 users.
Not really encouraging stats for a system that has been around for ten years, though maybe the PR from being mentioned on here will give it a boost.
(It took considerable effort to copy that text, because they are using text-selection blocking tricks. Nowhere else on the page is this the case...)
> The fees vary by payment processor, payment method, countries and currencies. In the last year, the average fee percentages have been 3,1 % for the payments processed by Stripe and 5 % for the payments processed by PayPal.
Stablecoins seem so obvious it's unbelievable.
Stablecoins seem so obvious it's unbelievable.
Unfortunately, depending on where you live, there could be high fees, fiscal
and compliance complexity when dealing with crypto currencies.
Stripe supports stablecoins if the merchant enables it. They still charge 1.5% though.
Building and maintaining integrations and dealing with customer support and monitoring accounts for fraud costs money.
And the number of people who keep spending money in stablecoins is minuscule. (I'd never use them because I want fraudulent transactions to be able to be reversed.)
Building and maintaining integrations and dealing with customer support and monitoring accounts for fraud costs money.
And the number of people who keep spending money in stablecoins is minuscule. (I'd never use them because I want fraudulent transactions to be able to be reversed.)
One thing I like in a payments system is when the website goes down from a little bit of traffic.
They submitted it to HN to try out their new {hard,soft}ware. :D
I submitted this Liberapay link, and have no association with it besides funding a few projects and coders through it. They wouldn't have been expecting a surge in traffic.
I was partly joking, it is something I would have done. Thank you for the clarification though, and thanks for the submission, Liberapay is great.
Has anyone done a review with the strengths and weaknesses of Liberapay vs common platforms?
Can it be compared in any way with GNU Taler payment system ?
No, it's something like Patreon, not a currency infrastructure.
Not really, but support for Taler could be implemented in Liberapay. If someone is able and willing to tackle that, there's a possibility of funding the work with an EU grant: https://github.com/liberapay/liberapay.com/issues/1309#issue...
Hmm, the name seems a bit off. "Librepay" makes me think of a user-respecting service. Liberapay sounds like it is based in Liberia or something.
It has an entirely different inappropriate association for me. Having spent years singing in choirs, when I see the name I get the words "Liberapay, Domine, de morte aeterna in die illa tremenda..." running in my head, to the tune of the spiky fugal setting in Verdi's requiem.
liber/a/um is Latin.
I remember seeing this a while ago, but it's a decent alternative to Patreon!
No way to donate Bitcoin?
No and it isn't on their roadmap. Projects who want to accept crypto should probably just put a wallet address on their pages rather than trying to rely on systems like Liberapay that aren't setup to facilitate transfers.
True the whole thing about Bitcoin is that you don't need that middle man
If the end user wants to accept bitcoin, they will publish an address one can directly transfer to. It is peer-to-peer, so no need for a service.
What value would that add? Recipients accepting crypto usually just put up a wallet address. Why add a middle person
convert the bitcoin to fiat and send away.
> However, we do not handle any crypto-currency.
Thankfully not.
Thankfully not.
Can you keep how much you’re earning private?
Yes. The box to check is in https://liberapay.com/about/me/edit/privacy
ooo curious how hard it is to integrate this with Ghost. It's a perfect CMS for non-profits who are good at blogging and email marketing.
Ghost integrates directly with Stripe, no need to have an intermediary like Liberapay.
i know. i misunderstood liberapay as an alternative to stripe
-lerapay?
For the type of works I link my LiberaPay to, I don't have nor want tiers and rewards associated with them, as that forms a social contract where I am expected to perform more labour. I only want money from people who are thankful for what I've already provided, and I only want what they're willing to provide.
I suspect microscopic rewards like discord roles, a news letter, ect. do increase revenue, but then again you're managing a community.
I encountered issues with Stripe so that's been disabled, PayPal only, but PayPal doesn't auto renew. Again, I suspect I lost a considerable amount of money because of this. But again, taking money from people who wouldn't explicitly click 'renew' when they get the email doesn't feel right.
I also began offering Ko-fi as an option, however, because some people are uncomfortable with unfamiliar platforms.