Sony PlayStation 2 fixing frenzy(retrohax.net)
retrohax.net
Sony PlayStation 2 fixing frenzy
https://retrohax.net/sony-playstation-2-fixing-frenzy/
132 comments
I had a PS2 slim years ago and was annoyed that it wouldn’t let me use a “dual analog” controller I had kicking around to play PS2 games, eg for second player. Seemed like an unnecessarily hostile move to force an upgrade there when all the functionality other than rumble was clearly present.
But of course it’s the same now on PS5. I still have my PS4 pads and use them to round out 4p couch coop for broforce, overcooked, moving out, etc, but actual PS5 games will only work with PS5 pads.
But of course it’s the same now on PS5. I still have my PS4 pads and use them to round out 4p couch coop for broforce, overcooked, moving out, etc, but actual PS5 games will only work with PS5 pads.
The DualShock/DualAnalog were not quite the same as the DualShock 2, the face buttons on the DualShock 2 were advertised as being pressure sensitive. Some games were capable of using this.
Funnily enough, this caused issues with PS2 games ported to Xbox subsequently. Metal Gear Solid 2 made heavy use of the pressure sensitive buttons for weapon aiming vs shooting. I recall the Xbox didn't have pressure sensitive buttons, so had to do something different to achieve this (I'd need someone else to fill in the gaps here, I never owned an Xbox!)
Original Xbox had the pressure-sensitive buttons, but 360 did not, which specifically caused issues for MGS 2 and 3 in the HD Collection. Twin Snakes on the Gamecube suffered similarly, requiring awkward combinations of Y and A to lower your pistol or raise your automatic weapon without firing.
THAT'S WHY. As an avid Metal Gear enthusiast during the release of MGS2, I remember having nearly-impossible time finding MGS2 Substance for PS2 when I wanted to do my first real replay way back in the day. I imagine it was the more popular version since it had working pressure buttons, presumably.
The original Xbox actually did have pressure sensitive face buttons. Off the top of my head, the only game I know that used them is Vexx (which strangely didn't use them on the PS2...)
The PS3 had those too, but they were dropped for the PS4 and PS5. I did read that it caused a few headaches for the classics ported forward.
Speaking of oddball controller features, I was a bit surprised the PS5 retained the little trackpad, given how little use it seemed to get on the PS4— even in obvious situations like Assassins Creed where you're moving an on-screen cursor around a map, but only with the thumbstick.
Speaking of oddball controller features, I was a bit surprised the PS5 retained the little trackpad, given how little use it seemed to get on the PS4— even in obvious situations like Assassins Creed where you're moving an on-screen cursor around a map, but only with the thumbstick.
> actual PS5 games will only work with PS5 pads
So IIUC the PS4 gamepad can be used but only for PS4 games? That is ridiculous.
Meanwhile I'm rocking an original release day Xbox One controller on a Series X.
That said while I can understand them dropping X360 witeless due to protocol changes I'm still bitter that the X360 wired accessories were simply denied on the Xone, notably the whole Rock Band stuff as well as steering wheels.
So IIUC the PS4 gamepad can be used but only for PS4 games? That is ridiculous.
Meanwhile I'm rocking an original release day Xbox One controller on a Series X.
That said while I can understand them dropping X360 witeless due to protocol changes I'm still bitter that the X360 wired accessories were simply denied on the Xone, notably the whole Rock Band stuff as well as steering wheels.
>>So IIUC the PS4 gamepad can be used but only for PS4 games? That is ridiculous.
It's because PS5 games can use the adaptive triggers functionality that is impossible to emulate on the PS4 controller. For example in Ratchet and Clank short pull on the trigger fires the gun, there is artifical resistance past that point, but if you pull past it it will fire the secondary weapon mode. On a PS4 controller you'd just fire the secondary mode all the time because there would be no way to find the threshold on a trigger without this functionality.
Of course games could be designed around this and support both - but Sony avoided placing such a requirement on devs so all PS5 games are presumed to be using a PS5 controller when going through cert.
It's because PS5 games can use the adaptive triggers functionality that is impossible to emulate on the PS4 controller. For example in Ratchet and Clank short pull on the trigger fires the gun, there is artifical resistance past that point, but if you pull past it it will fire the secondary weapon mode. On a PS4 controller you'd just fire the secondary mode all the time because there would be no way to find the threshold on a trigger without this functionality.
Of course games could be designed around this and support both - but Sony avoided placing such a requirement on devs so all PS5 games are presumed to be using a PS5 controller when going through cert.
> On a PS4 controller you'd just fire the secondary mode all the time because there would be no way to find the threshold on a trigger without this functionality.
Just don't mash the trigger all the way? You don't have the haptic feedback of such a trigger wall but claiming it's "impossible" is a bit extreme. A nice threshold mapping could arrange for that e.g 0-10% dead zone, 10%-80% main mode, 90%-100% secondary mode, _ factor in rate of press to avoid misfiring main mode. Which is probably the logic that it implements already, except with probably a bit more leeway thanks to the haptic feedback.
"Impossible" would be playing a typical† dual stick game with a gamepad that has none (e.g original PS1 gamepad)
† like a FPS that uses the now classic stick layout for quick yet precise movement + orientation
Honest question as I'm curious and don't have access to a PS5: what about PS5-only games that happen to exist on other platforms that don't have such features? Can they be played with a PS4 controller?
Oh and to be clear: it's not a Xbox vs PS thing, I find them both equally guilty of excessive e-wasting / platform locking, just in different ways.
Just don't mash the trigger all the way? You don't have the haptic feedback of such a trigger wall but claiming it's "impossible" is a bit extreme. A nice threshold mapping could arrange for that e.g 0-10% dead zone, 10%-80% main mode, 90%-100% secondary mode, _ factor in rate of press to avoid misfiring main mode. Which is probably the logic that it implements already, except with probably a bit more leeway thanks to the haptic feedback.
"Impossible" would be playing a typical† dual stick game with a gamepad that has none (e.g original PS1 gamepad)
† like a FPS that uses the now classic stick layout for quick yet precise movement + orientation
Honest question as I'm curious and don't have access to a PS5: what about PS5-only games that happen to exist on other platforms that don't have such features? Can they be played with a PS4 controller?
Oh and to be clear: it's not a Xbox vs PS thing, I find them both equally guilty of excessive e-wasting / platform locking, just in different ways.
Ehhh let me put it in a different way - it's not impossible, of course. But it's about the fact that if someone is using a PS4 controller and they don't know about this, then they are going to have a bad time. And no dev wants their players to have a bad time, and neither does the platform holder. So they would rather just say no, you as a dev don't have to worry about this - every player will use a PS5 controller, done.
>>what about PS5-only games that happen to exist on other platforms that don't have such features? Can they be played with a PS4 controller?
Sure, Ratchet and Clank has a PC version now which can be played with any controller, including a PS4 or xbox controller. Obviously for this version it was remapped to make sense when using such controllers.
Again, it's not about actual literal impossibility - it's Sony's choice to say "look we want to promote features of the PS5, so code your gameplay features to make use of the adaptive triggers and we guarantee that every player will have a ps5 controller. You don't need to code your game to support older pads" - so devs don't. They obviously do on platforms like PC where the player might be using anything.
>>what about PS5-only games that happen to exist on other platforms that don't have such features? Can they be played with a PS4 controller?
Sure, Ratchet and Clank has a PC version now which can be played with any controller, including a PS4 or xbox controller. Obviously for this version it was remapped to make sense when using such controllers.
Again, it's not about actual literal impossibility - it's Sony's choice to say "look we want to promote features of the PS5, so code your gameplay features to make use of the adaptive triggers and we guarantee that every player will have a ps5 controller. You don't need to code your game to support older pads" - so devs don't. They obviously do on platforms like PC where the player might be using anything.
What was remapped for PC? I don't have a PS5 so PC is how I played R&C:RA and I don't recall there being any difference in how the trigger pulls were interpreted between having adaptive triggers enabled or disabled.
I literally had to boot up the game to check - long press on the trigger fires the secondary mode. So basically if you press and hold the trigger it will do the primary fire then the secondary fire.
> Honest question as I'm curious and don't have access to a PS5: what about PS5-only games that happen to exist on other platforms that don't have such features? Can they be played with a PS4 controller?
Games that use PS5-exclusive features when played on PS5 obviously don't use those features when not run on a PS5, if it's been ported.
While your idea sounds neat in practice, with those thresholds and such, I'm not sure how practical it is in real-life. Lots of controllers eventually start reporting somewhat inaccurate values, sometimes rather large variance, so whatever you end up using as the actual values, they tend to not be perfect for everyone, so then the game will appear really buggy, almost broken.
I'm guessing they're favoring "works 100% for everyone who can run it" rather than "Kind of works for most people, broken for the rest".
Games that use PS5-exclusive features when played on PS5 obviously don't use those features when not run on a PS5, if it's been ported.
While your idea sounds neat in practice, with those thresholds and such, I'm not sure how practical it is in real-life. Lots of controllers eventually start reporting somewhat inaccurate values, sometimes rather large variance, so whatever you end up using as the actual values, they tend to not be perfect for everyone, so then the game will appear really buggy, almost broken.
I'm guessing they're favoring "works 100% for everyone who can run it" rather than "Kind of works for most people, broken for the rest".
> It's because PS5 games can use the adaptive triggers functionality
IIRC those can be disabled at the system level, and when streaming a PS5 game to a PS4 guess what, the DualShock 4 works fine.
IIRC those can be disabled at the system level, and when streaming a PS5 game to a PS4 guess what, the DualShock 4 works fine.
True, I have done that many times. So you're right that there is an inconsistency there - but Sony always treated remote streaming as a special case.
It's totally reasonable to expect the native pad for single player games; my contention is more around couch multiplayer scenarios. When each pad costs as much as a day 1 game, it's a big investment to have four of them— so most players have just one or two.
As it turns out, there aren't all that many couch multiplayer games that are PS5-only, and a lot of what's there is two player only (Diablo 3/4, BG3, Hot Wheels, Borderlands, etc). So maybe the whole argument is moot, but the long and short of it is that any game which I think I might want to play with more than two people I buy on Switch instead, since I'm always going to have lots of those pads.
As it turns out, there aren't all that many couch multiplayer games that are PS5-only, and a lot of what's there is two player only (Diablo 3/4, BG3, Hot Wheels, Borderlands, etc). So maybe the whole argument is moot, but the long and short of it is that any game which I think I might want to play with more than two people I buy on Switch instead, since I'm always going to have lots of those pads.
I don’t get why backward compatibility is even expected, other than a nice-to-have. Historically, gamepads weren’t portable between generations of systems.
I’ve got a Logitech steering wheel that I can’t use on 64-bit Windows because of the way the driver was implemented.
I’ve got a Logitech steering wheel that I can’t use on 64-bit Windows because of the way the driver was implemented.
Because we all know that under the covers it's just Bluetooth and USB, and they don't have a good reason. Especially in Xbox world, where while the hardware on an Xbox Series X is more powerful than an Xbox One, the software is largely the same.
Nitpick: Xbox One controllers communicate using a proprietary WiFi Direct protocol. Bluetooth is only there for pairing with other devices.
Strange analog stick fact: According to YouTuber Wulff Den, the first ever game that used an analog stick for third-person camera rotation was only Super Mario Sunshine in 2002. A GameCube game that came out more than two years after the release of the PS2, and several years after the N64 and the PS1 Dual Analog controller.
I guess some ideas seem only obvious in hindsight.
I guess some ideas seem only obvious in hindsight.
I scoffed when I first read this, but the more I think about it, the more that might be correct.
Mario 64 had third-person camera movement, but it was with the N64's C-buttons, and had fixed angles, not free movement. Since it didn't have a second joystick, that rules out the N64 (some games did allow you to use a second controller as a second analog stick, but I don't think any third person games did so).
Likewise, the Dreamcast didn't have a second stick, so it's ruled out too. That basically leaves us with the PS1 or an early PS2/Gamecube game. Apparently Quake II on PS1 did allow for the second stick to aim, but that's not third person. The closest I can find is Ico on PS2, which allowed for analog stick camera movement, but I think only in the horizontal direction. Mario Sunshine might well be the first for full camera angle movement, which honestly really surprises me.
Mario 64 had third-person camera movement, but it was with the N64's C-buttons, and had fixed angles, not free movement. Since it didn't have a second joystick, that rules out the N64 (some games did allow you to use a second controller as a second analog stick, but I don't think any third person games did so).
Likewise, the Dreamcast didn't have a second stick, so it's ruled out too. That basically leaves us with the PS1 or an early PS2/Gamecube game. Apparently Quake II on PS1 did allow for the second stick to aim, but that's not third person. The closest I can find is Ico on PS2, which allowed for analog stick camera movement, but I think only in the horizontal direction. Mario Sunshine might well be the first for full camera angle movement, which honestly really surprises me.
Just piling on to say that there was also Alien: Resurrection on PS1 that used the modern dual-stick movement/aiming setup. It was one of the first FPSes to do so, at least as the default control scheme. Reviewers at the time mostly hated it and called it awkward, probably because they were comparing non-aim-assisted console FPS controls to PC FPSes of the era, which is kind of fair tbh. The game's difficulty was also probably too high for the time, especially given the brand-new control style.
Yeah but the comment you are replying to, and the one before that, talk about third-person games, not first-person games.
Regarding Alien Resurrection: Turok (another FPS game which came out a few years earlier) also had modern FPS controls as default, though movement was done with the d-pad, as the N64 didn't have two sticks.
Regarding Alien Resurrection: Turok (another FPS game which came out a few years earlier) also had modern FPS controls as default, though movement was done with the d-pad, as the N64 didn't have two sticks.
And inverted the Y-Axis too, which I still do today thanks to this game, I think.
I don't think that's true, I remember playing both Jak and Daxter and Ico in either 2000 or 2001 and I think both of those had camera control with the right-hand analog stick.
This one says camera rotation for Jak and Daxter is mapped on the R/L buttons: https://jakanddaxter.fandom.com/wiki/Daxter_controls
But Ico indeed used the stick for the camera: https://strategywiki.org/wiki/ICO/Controls
However, I'm not sure whether it was only used for horizontal rotation or full arbitrary rotation (arbitrary combinations of horizontal and vertical) as in Super Mario Sunshine. But it might very well be the first game to have that, not Mario Sunshine.
But Ico indeed used the stick for the camera: https://strategywiki.org/wiki/ICO/Controls
However, I'm not sure whether it was only used for horizontal rotation or full arbitrary rotation (arbitrary combinations of horizontal and vertical) as in Super Mario Sunshine. But it might very well be the first game to have that, not Mario Sunshine.
> This one says camera rotation for Jak and Daxter is mapped on the R/L buttons: https://jakanddaxter.fandom.com/wiki/Daxter_controls
Seems wrong too, archived manual (https://archive.org/details/ps2_Jak_and_Daxter-_The_Precurso...) seems to say "RIGHT ANALOG STICK ... Camera Rotate/Zoom" under the game controls. I think the page you linked to is for another game.
Seems wrong too, archived manual (https://archive.org/details/ps2_Jak_and_Daxter-_The_Precurso...) seems to say "RIGHT ANALOG STICK ... Camera Rotate/Zoom" under the game controls. I think the page you linked to is for another game.
I just looked at a few videos and it seems that the analog stick does indeed move the camera, though apparently only horizontally, not "freely" with arbitrary rotations. I'm not sure though.
How is that different from Super Mario Sunshine? It was probably two decades ago I last played it, but I think it was the same.
No there you can do arbitrary camera rotations, not just horizontal ones. For example, you can view the character from above.
Now you made me unsure, so skimmed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrsWUmiayLM for a bit, which seems to me to confirm it's just horizontal camera movement. But there seems to be a zoom in/out functionality, which would move the camera in/out+vertically, but that's different than rotating around the character freely. The camera also does a ton of vertical movements by itself too, as Mario jumps/falls.
Yeah, I think you are actually right. I must have misremembered it. This source also suggests Mario Sunshine didn't have a "free" rotating camera but a combination of horizontal rotation and zoom: https://strategywiki.org/wiki/Super_Mario_Sunshine/Controls
I guess then the first game I definitely know that had a free camera was The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, which came out a few months after Sunshine. This is also confirmed here: https://strategywiki.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda:_The_Wind_...
Of course the question is whether there might have been an earlier game which had it. Regarding Ico, apparently it also allows only horizontal rotation (camera "panning" is horizontal movement): https://strategywiki.org/wiki/ICO/Controls
I guess then the first game I definitely know that had a free camera was The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, which came out a few months after Sunshine. This is also confirmed here: https://strategywiki.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda:_The_Wind_...
Of course the question is whether there might have been an earlier game which had it. Regarding Ico, apparently it also allows only horizontal rotation (camera "panning" is horizontal movement): https://strategywiki.org/wiki/ICO/Controls
Turok from 1997 let you use the dpad for movement and stick to look/aim.
Edit: Oh, sorry didn't see you mention third person.
Edit: Oh, sorry didn't see you mention third person.
I've read some early reviews of a licensed alien shooter where they complain about how confusing the control scheme is - left stick for movement and right for aim.
Before Halo it wasn't really intuitive I guess?
Before Halo it wasn't really intuitive I guess?
Yeah, that's another point: the modern first-person controls you describe were once thought to be counterintuitive compared to the old Wolfenstein style controls.
A similar point holds for third-person games: Before Super Mario 64, all third-person games had Wolfenstein style tank controls where left/right rotates the character in place and up/down makes it move forward/backward. E.g. Tomb Raider or Mega Man Legends. The idea to make character movement relative to the camera viewpoint wasn't obvious.
(Though the Tomb Raider developers tried to work around this to a degree by fixing the camera behind the character, which prevented to most counterintuitive control issues Mega Man Legends had, but also meant free camera rotation was impossible.)
A similar point holds for third-person games: Before Super Mario 64, all third-person games had Wolfenstein style tank controls where left/right rotates the character in place and up/down makes it move forward/backward. E.g. Tomb Raider or Mega Man Legends. The idea to make character movement relative to the camera viewpoint wasn't obvious.
(Though the Tomb Raider developers tried to work around this to a degree by fixing the camera behind the character, which prevented to most counterintuitive control issues Mega Man Legends had, but also meant free camera rotation was impossible.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_Resurrection_(video_game...
(For anyone else curious)
(For anyone else curious)
https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/3du770/alien_resurr...
and the particular quote I was thinking of for the record.
and the particular quote I was thinking of for the record.
That's really strange because that setup was effectively the default for N64 games. Stick under your left thumb for movement and the C buttons under your right thumb for camera control
It's not strange because it's not really true. The default controls both of GoldenEye and Perfect Dark used the stick for moving forward/backward and turning left/right. Turok did use the c buttons for walking and the stick for looking though.
Forgive me sounding like Claude, but you’re absolutely right! I’ve played platformers from that era recently but it’s been a long time since I touched the shooters. I was mixing them up in my recollection. The shooters had a weird mix and for some reason even though Goldeneye had a bunch of control scheme options, none of them let you put all movement on one input and all camera control on the other.
I'm pretty sure both GoldenEye and Perfect Dark had (non default) control options where movements were on the d-pad and camera on the analog stick. For GoldenEye see "Solitaire" and "Goodnight" here: https://goldeneye.fandom.com/wiki/Control_style
I think the problem I had with the left-half controller layout is that it still used A and B but they were hard to press. Same problem with holding 2 controllers in the center. The N64 controller definitely was not the greatest design for shooters. (And now that I've tried to use one more recently, not a great design in general for larger hands... mine don't really fit the center grip)
But the linked page indicates you could use the right half rather than the left half of the controller. So the c-buttons (rather than the left d-pad) for walking and the stick for looking/turning. Turok style. The "Solitaire" preset even has the Z trigger for firing.
Which sounds pretty good. Of course having an actual stick for walking would have been even better, but buttons aren't that bad, considering that PC games still use them for walking to this day.
I'm actually wondering why PC games never converged on a "left joy-con" style controller with a stick and buttons, for one hand, while the other hand holds the mouse. I guess the ordinary keyboard is good enough so there wasn't much pressure to replace it.
Which sounds pretty good. Of course having an actual stick for walking would have been even better, but buttons aren't that bad, considering that PC games still use them for walking to this day.
I'm actually wondering why PC games never converged on a "left joy-con" style controller with a stick and buttons, for one hand, while the other hand holds the mouse. I guess the ordinary keyboard is good enough so there wasn't much pressure to replace it.
> I'm actually wondering why PC games never converged on a "left joy-con" style controller with a stick and buttons, for one hand, while the other hand holds the mouse. I guess the ordinary keyboard is good enough so there wasn't much pressure to replace it.
Really does seem to be a matter of the keyboard being good enough and knowing that most everyone has one connected to their PC. I've just come to accept that I need to prioritize what matters most for a given game. So, selecting between KB+M or controller on a case-by-case basis. I think the only game recently that annoyed me for not fitting one or the other very well was Cyberpunk 2077 because the cars were very touchy and would have been better with analog input.
Really does seem to be a matter of the keyboard being good enough and knowing that most everyone has one connected to their PC. I've just come to accept that I need to prioritize what matters most for a given game. So, selecting between KB+M or controller on a case-by-case basis. I think the only game recently that annoyed me for not fitting one or the other very well was Cyberpunk 2077 because the cars were very touchy and would have been better with analog input.
Omg, I remember exactly that intermediate joystick. It was lighter than the dualshock, so when you held a dualshock it felt cool, especially when it started rumbling!
I really like the concave analog sticks on that controller. The convex DualShock ones get slippery as hell once the controller is a few years old.
The analog face buttons of the DualShock 2 are cool in concept but always made me press too hard out of fear of not getting up to full speed or whatever in games that used face buttons for acceleration (mostly Burnout 3 and Revenge for me) https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/List_of_console...
The analog face buttons of the DualShock 2 are cool in concept but always made me press too hard out of fear of not getting up to full speed or whatever in games that used face buttons for acceleration (mostly Burnout 3 and Revenge for me) https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/List_of_console...
> analog face buttons of the DualShock 2 are cool in concept but always made me press too hard
The amount of hand pain this one feature all those years ago has caused.
To this day I find my self having to loosen my grip and press the face buttons lighter because it makes no difference now.
(Though PS5 has added a whole new level of hand ache with adaptive trigger resistance).
The amount of hand pain this one feature all those years ago has caused.
To this day I find my self having to loosen my grip and press the face buttons lighter because it makes no difference now.
(Though PS5 has added a whole new level of hand ache with adaptive trigger resistance).
I love the adaptive triggers. I have all the consoles and a gaming PC and will buy games on PS5 because of them. I think it adds an interesting tactile element that also improves playability.
I love them as a feature, I think they're really cool, but I find some games like Horizon (with the Bow)... I'm failing to think of others at the moment as I haven't played in a while... cause ache after a relatively short gaming session.
Maybe I just need to look into reducing the "resistance" of them in the settings.
Maybe I just need to look into reducing the "resistance" of them in the settings.
Same with the original Sixaxis PS3 controller without rumble! I liked that lightweight controller a lot!
It was also short lived and replaced with the PS3’s version with rumble included – they were saying it’s because of a patent dispute.
It was also short lived and replaced with the PS3’s version with rumble included – they were saying it’s because of a patent dispute.
So it's unrelated to the analog face buttons?
I don't know what "face buttons" are, but the Analog button only toggles how the Joysticks work, toggling between sending Analog or Digital signals.
The buttons on the front of a playstation controller (d-pad, cross/circle/triangle/square) were pressure sensitive on the ps2/ps2.
256 levels on the ps2, 1024 on the ps3. Few games used this outside of racing games, and they were removed from the ps4 controller. It's most commonly noticed when configuring a ps3 controller on a PC.
256 levels on the ps2, 1024 on the ps3. Few games used this outside of racing games, and they were removed from the ps4 controller. It's most commonly noticed when configuring a ps3 controller on a PC.
> Unfortunately, nobody wanted to buy these even for a cost that would cover all the expenses spent on this project. On the bright side, I have learned a lot, plus, I have a cool PS2 to play with
I'm not sure if the OP is here, but the other obvious way to cover costs here is to create Youtube videos of the restoration process. I love these (as do lots of other people).
One of my favourites is a power-tool repair technician in Ireland:
https://www.youtube.com/@deandohertygreaser
I'm not sure if the OP is here, but the other obvious way to cover costs here is to create Youtube videos of the restoration process. I love these (as do lots of other people).
One of my favourites is a power-tool repair technician in Ireland:
https://www.youtube.com/@deandohertygreaser
Alternately:
https://archive.is/vxjmQ
15 hours later, it still is suffering the hug of death.
https://archive.is/vxjmQ
15 hours later, it still is suffering the hug of death.
Does anyone know the best way to get a reliably working PS2 nowadays? I happen to have a bunch of old PS2 games and would love to have a reliable PS2 to be able to use them with. But buying online seems fairly fraught - how do you have any guarantee you get a reliable device? And they seem to be fairly expensive now.
(I couldn't read the article because the site was currently down for me, so apologies if this comment is off-topic, but hopefully relevant!)
(I couldn't read the article because the site was currently down for me, so apologies if this comment is off-topic, but hopefully relevant!)
I actually have a PS2 and don't use it much, as it's a pain to hook up to a modern TV. Most games don't support progressive scan, which forces your TV to deinterlace, which im my case adds enough latency to make it unpleasant to play. There's some boutique hardware that can deinterlace with less latency, but then it starts to get expensive really fast.
Ideally you'd have to buy a CRT TV along with it.
Ideally you'd have to buy a CRT TV along with it.
Yes! That latency was very quick to induce nausea for me while trying to play Battlefront with my son. I thought maybe it was just the frame rate… but latency makes more sense.
Thanks for sharing that and solving a mystery for me!!
Thanks for sharing that and solving a mystery for me!!
The base retrotink models work well and are inexpensive.
You mean the 99 USD one? After duties, VAT and shipment to EU, it will most likely get more expensive than the PS2 itself.
If your console supports either RGB output via SCART or YPbPr via component cables, which an European PS2 definitely does, I would recommend you the GBS-C. You can find it in Amazon for less than 80 euros, and the upscaling quality is great.
The author claims they could not find a buyer for theirs but they added hard drives to the finished PS2s. Browsing EBay finds a plain refurbished PS2 for 160-200 from seller with 99.3 percent rating with over 1100 sold. The mods in the article seem really nice - allowing you to rip games you own to a hard drive and play games off the hard drive instead of waiting for DVD seek/read times. There are not a lot of details about the cost of the mod in article but I’m guessing it would add a couple hundred to his sale price .
Mercari + Buyee will get you things that are decent.
Here's just one of many listings. Shipping depends on where you are of course. And it's a Japanese model so you'll need to do stuff based on that. https://jp.mercari.com/item/m93693596459
Here's just one of many listings. Shipping depends on where you are of course. And it's a Japanese model so you'll need to do stuff based on that. https://jp.mercari.com/item/m93693596459
Sadly, does not ship to the US.
Have you considered emulating instead?
There are still many beloved games that don't emulate well.
Really? Like what?
In my case I'm a big fan of Ace Combat and PCSX2 has rendering issues in both software and hardware modes:
https://github.com/PCSX2/pcsx2/issues/10976
https://github.com/PCSX2/pcsx2/issues/12173
It's gotten better (no more black untextured planes!) but the best experience is still on original hardware.
https://github.com/PCSX2/pcsx2/issues/10976
https://github.com/PCSX2/pcsx2/issues/12173
It's gotten better (no more black untextured planes!) but the best experience is still on original hardware.
The Stuntman series is a still painful example.
Blame the odd non-IEEE-754 floating point implementation changing physics enough that AI fails most of the missions which softblocks progress quite egregiously
Blame the odd non-IEEE-754 floating point implementation changing physics enough that AI fails most of the missions which softblocks progress quite egregiously
Made me laugh though, when in the first level that it completely blocks, the director tells you to get close to a pickup, but the car you're chasing smashes the pickup to the sky like Team Rocket.
Last I heard there was a feature branch for testing a software implementation of floating point that would fix these issues, but naturally it would be a lot slower. I haven't tried it myself.
Last I heard there was a feature branch for testing a software implementation of floating point that would fix these issues, but naturally it would be a lot slower. I haven't tried it myself.
> The Stuntman series is a still painful example.
I tried PS2 emulation just a year to ago, just to play Stuntman and found the same thing, painfully slow and barely playable.
I tried PS2 emulation just a year to ago, just to play Stuntman and found the same thing, painfully slow and barely playable.
Either spend a lot for an eBay seller that looks reputable or find them at garage sales or thrift stores where they’re cheap enough to buy and try if you can’t fire it up there.
If you don't care to do the work yourself, I've bought many modded consoles from Etsy sellers and have always had a great experience.
The ones you can find online are sold by people who know the market all too well so the prices are high. Plus it's online so there's no guarantee about anything.
Pawn shops, thrift stores, or their "modern" equivalents (EasyCash, CashConverters, etc. YMMV) would be a good start. I got mine out of a pile for 10€ at a countryside GiFi (French store) ten years ago.
Pawn shops, thrift stores, or their "modern" equivalents (EasyCash, CashConverters, etc. YMMV) would be a good start. I got mine out of a pile for 10€ at a countryside GiFi (French store) ten years ago.
Try a gaming store that offers a guarantee? I don't know where you are, but here in the UK, second-hand stores such as Cash Converters are full of PS2s, fat and slim. Dedicated second-hand entertainment stores like CEX will test consoles before buying them off people, and claim to offer a several-months guarantee.
You could also check out https://ongoldscar.com, sometimes there is a PS2 in the current drop (repaired, certified and with warranty)
Look for the slim models. They are much more reliable than the standard PS2.
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Buy one and replace the laser they are cheap and plentiful
My PS2 slim still works (I played Teken Tag Tournament last weekend). Am I lucky? Anyone know the MTBF?
On the other hand, I don't think I've had a DS2 controller last me more than a couple of years, even with light use. I use My dual-shock 1 controllers for any game that is compatible with it, and they are still going strong.
On the other hand, I don't think I've had a DS2 controller last me more than a couple of years, even with light use. I use My dual-shock 1 controllers for any game that is compatible with it, and they are still going strong.
The 2 OEM Dual Shock 2 I got with my console, worked for 10+ years right until I
sold it
Generics varied in quality vastly but never felt quite that sturdy I regret having to sell that PS2, specially seeing the current resurgence
Generics varied in quality vastly but never felt quite that sturdy I regret having to sell that PS2, specially seeing the current resurgence
My PS3 controllers are still working perfectly almost 20 years later. Yet I’ve had to replace my PS5 controllers three times so far, due to the joysticks not reading their position correctly. Each one lasted about a year and a half.
My PS2 Fat still works perfectly. The only difficulty I had was getting it running on a HDMI TV, but that was fixed with a fairly well known HDMI adapter and inputting of a specific controller combo to get it into the correct display mode.
I was kinda shocked to see the state of some of those PS2 consoles.
I was kinda shocked to see the state of some of those PS2 consoles.
My fat PS2 stopped reading discs and was replaced with a slim when you could still buy them new. The spindle that holds the disc exploded in it over 10 years ago.
I'm not sure what what the reliability is long term, but the PS2 is the only console I've had to replace. Kind of funny that the replacement failed too. In comparison, I have a working GameCube, Wii, and gave a working Sega Genesis to a friend a couple of years ago
I'm not sure what what the reliability is long term, but the PS2 is the only console I've had to replace. Kind of funny that the replacement failed too. In comparison, I have a working GameCube, Wii, and gave a working Sega Genesis to a friend a couple of years ago
What about using it without optical media? You can install a SATA mod and use a large SATA SSD and run all your games from that. You can even install a nice cooling fan and disconnect the DVD drive, giving you a near silent console that should last a long time.
I had to do something similar with my Dreamcast; the mod was cheaper than getting a replacement GD-ROM drive
This was something I considered, but emulation is good enough.
> Unfortunately, nobody wanted to buy these even for a cost that would cover all the expenses spent on this project.
Makes me wonder how expensive these were to make.
Makes me wonder how expensive these were to make.
It's not that they were expensive (the HDD + adapter probably being the most expensive part), but rather that the PS2s on the used market are so cheap no one was willing to pay the extra, even if it's been refurbished.
He said in the comments on the post that he valued the parts, units, and his time at about 100 bucks, and put them up for 150, which no one would pay. This was back in 2022ish.
that's less than i was expecting. i was looking for a ps2 around then and i'd definitely have paid $150 plus shipping for all of that.
Absolute long shot. Say someone had a PS2 Devkit that booted once and then never again. Is there a perfect tear down and maintenance guide like this with lots of text and pictures that people have had success with before?
If the devkit is a DTL-H, the instructions are pretty much the same as retail systems. For DTL-T (e.g. DTL-T10000 or DTL-T15000), there is lots of info here, including a link to a disassembly guide: https://archive.org/details/ps2_tool_guide/
Thats awesome. And yeah I have both a TOOL and a TEST, the TOOL is the problem child the TEST works a treat. Both of them have been officially destroyed and I tend to get a bit antsy about letting them show in public.
Wonder why they used HDDs and not a CompactFlash card - CF under the hood is IDE in a different form factor, there's passive adapters to IDE, and you can get them new up to 256GB. Or you go with CFast, a SATA adapter or just a straight SATA SSD and then a SATA to IDE adapter. Far more durable than any HDD will ever be.
They're fine for data storage, but CF card controllers for large capacity(16GB and above) had issues with severe stuttering and performance issues in random reads/writes causing OS to become unresponsive for seconds at a time if not BSoDing - no, they were not instantaneous for everything just by being flash based. There were also some problems in some SSDs that the SSDs sometimes take much longer than HDDs to complete its own firmware bootup process, so much so that BIOS might consider the disk broken. Could be those reasons.
Or it could be just that HDDs are still more economical than SSDs. About ~2x cheaper for 2.5" 1TB as of now.
Or it could be just that HDDs are still more economical than SSDs. About ~2x cheaper for 2.5" 1TB as of now.
Most CF cards are marked as "removable drive" by firmware and can't be changed. I'm not sure PS will accept that.
Industrial CF cards that don't do that are very expensive.
Industrial CF cards that don't do that are very expensive.
The Transcend consumer cards are/were generally 'hybrids' - they would work in IDE mode if connected to such an interface.
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I'm pretty sure that was my old "FHDB Noobie Package" that was installed to the drive using HDD Raw Copy. That thing has had almost 48k downloads. Fun times.
So... What does the analog button do?
Most ps1 games only supports the d-pad. If you have a dualshock controller but want to move your dude with the analog stick instead of the d-pad, you activate the analog mode.
Dope, I guess I never played a PS1 game that was written for DPAD only.
Emulate the old D-pad.
Was peak MIPS the PS2 or the N64?
It's kind of a silly question, but: when the N64 came out in 1996, MIPS CPUs were high-end workstation chips; by the time the PS2 was released in 2000, SGI had effectively declared MIPS a dead-end and was shipping Intel-based machines. So I'd say the N64 wins handily: peak MIPS was a MIPS chip in every living room, powering video games that felt like the future.
Even though the PS2 won its generation - and the N64 decidedly did not - that was despite and not because of its technical prowess; it was a less impressive machine than its two closest competitors.
Even though the PS2 won its generation - and the N64 decidedly did not - that was despite and not because of its technical prowess; it was a less impressive machine than its two closest competitors.
That's the whole interesting thing about refighting the console wars; the technologically superior option (which you can argue about itself) rarely if ever really "won".
Wonder what happened to those computers. Hopefully they were sold on government auction and not scrapped.
The SGI Onyx2
I certainly miss having COP2 instructions.
So, what does the analog button on the controller do?
Some older PS1 games didn't work with the Dual Shock in analogue mode. You needed to press the button to disable the analogue sticks to play those games.
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Emulate the old D-pad.
Basically acted as a trigger. So if you pressed harder the game could respond. I only really remember driving games taking advantage of it though, and can't remember the game but remember being super annoyed at some action-rpg-like game where it used it to differentiate between actions but running into issues of it interpreting all of my presses as hard presses.
The real problem was that there was basically no feedback. So other than a driving game it was almost impossible to know what you were doing.
I don’t remember ever playing any other games that used it besides Gran Tourismo 3. I imagine in something like a fighting game it would be too hard to reliably hit the right pressure to get the move you want and it would end up just feeling really frustrating.
I don’t remember ever playing any other games that used it besides Gran Tourismo 3. I imagine in something like a fighting game it would be too hard to reliably hit the right pressure to get the move you want and it would end up just feeling really frustrating.
> Some controllers are originally painted with a rubber-like cover that, unfortunately, degrades with time and becomes a sticky gooey. I usually deal with it with the help of Methanol. It nicely removes it.
I have some products like that and I despise them. Maybe I should try methanol.
I have some products like that and I despise them. Maybe I should try methanol.
I was going to comment on this too. I notice this happens with what feels like more traditional plastics - what exactly is going with these? It feels like over time they are breaking down and liquefying, or releasing their oils?
Same thing happens with a somewhat expensive musical instrument brand that keeps using that plastic for their buttons.
As far as I can tell, it breaks down slower the more you use it, must be interacting with oils/something from human fingers, as I only have that happen for things that remain in storage for months/years at a time, but the gear with that sort of plastic that I use every day/week doesn't have that happening.
As far as I can tell, it breaks down slower the more you use it, must be interacting with oils/something from human fingers, as I only have that happen for things that remain in storage for months/years at a time, but the gear with that sort of plastic that I use every day/week doesn't have that happening.
Yeah I had an official silicone iPhone case that was being used for about 8 months, replaced it with a third party leather one about a month ago and already within that time I noticed that the original one has gone all slimy just like those old plastics. There must be something about using it day to day that keeps it from breaking down.
With rubber products, it’s usually the plasticizers leaking over years. I have learned this the painful way (massive migration of plasticizers from the underside of my mousepad to other things), and now actively avoid any rubber products, usually in favour of silicone instead.
I believe isopropyl alcohol is safer for both plastics and humans. It even doubles as hand sanitizer refills!
Isopropyl alcohol works well too.
That sticky controller coating is like a badge of honor, if your PS2 controller isn't sticky, did you even game in the 2000s?
The button switches between two modes of the analog joysticks, either to behave with their normal functionality, or to simply be a digital input (so just round all movement to either up/down/left/right). For PS2 games, you typically wouldn't want to do this. Instead, the functionality exists because the PS2 was backwards compatible with PS1 titles. The original PS1 controller didn't have analog sticks at all, just the D-Pad for navigation. After a few years (and the success of Nintendo's N64 analog controller) Sony released a revised version of the controller that included two joysticks, which their controllers still mimic to this day. However, those PS1 games released prior to the analog controller wouldn't always behave correctly if you tried to use an analog input scheme, so Sony added a mode to allow the Joysticks to function the same as the D-Pad, in case players preferred it.
Other fun fact, the analog controller was not the same as their more famous Dualshock controller. There was a short-lived PS1 Dual Analog controller which just added the joysticks. It only lasted a few months before Sony replaced it with one that supported rumble functionality (also after being inspired by the N64), this was the Dualshock.